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Supernatural – Episode 9.15 – The Gripe Review

9 Mar 2014

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Death to Bromance, the battle cry of Supernatural season 9.

Hello and welcome to the Gripe Review for episode 15, an episode that once again surprised me by being more than just a light hearted Monster of the Week story and was instead steeped in mythology.

I say mythology because what goes on between the brothers, and all the references and parallels to it, seems to make up the mythology of this season. Since it is the only thing Sam and Dean are currently concerned with we might as well consider it season nine's Winchester arc. No longer are the brothers hunting demons to take revenge on the one who killed their family, or trying to stop Lilith from releasing Lucifer from the cage, or stopping Lucifer from starting the apocalypse. Their only concern is who did what and how that made the other feel. Soap opera writers should take notes.

The premise of the season however, as I suggested in the first line, is far more troubling than that. It seems to celebrate not the brotherly bond, but the destruction of it. And not just between Sam and Dean, but between Dean and Cas, and now Ed and Harry.


Notice that I said “celebrate” and not “study.” The bias of the story is strong enough to go beyond studying. It’s hammering home the idea that being close to someone like a brother, and trusting them with your life, is a bad idea that leads to emotional and physical damage.

Some people may like this premise. Carver and his writers certainly do. We should have foreseen it from the start of season 8 when Sam he didn't look for Dean.I guess those of us who liked the brotherly bond didn't want to accept it.

In last week’s review, some commenters said they approved of Carver’s direction because they were tired of Dean sacrificing everyone and everything just to be with Sam. I agreed, yet added that in my opinion that was not the only thing Carver was disassembling. To me the Sam and Dean relationship always had two sides, the good one which was the brotherly love, and the bad one which was the toxic codependency.

Good was A Very Supernatural Christmas. It was Sam and Dean watching each other’s back and working in tandem like a single unit to dispatch ghosts and demons. It was the bitch/jerk moments, the toy soldier moment, and that wink Dean gave Sam in Point of No Return.

In turn the bad was when Dean would step on his morals just to keep Sam around and happy, like when he cut his ties with Benny and later sacrificed him. Or when he kicked Castiel out of the bunker because of what he feared Gadreel might do, or when he let Gadreel possess Sam without the proper background checks. Dean acting like an obsessed moron in order to be with Sam is one of the ugliest things on the show, no doubt about it, and at first I was happy when it seemed like Carver wanted to dispose of it.


But now it’s clear that he isn't just after Dean’s one sided codependency, but the brotherly love – the whole idea of bromance - as well. He’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and it may have started before we even noticed.

Look at this season for example: Sam and Dean are at odds. Dean and Castiel barely interact on or off camera (Dean no longer prays to Cas.) Kevin, who was declared the forth Winchester by Dean, is dead. Even the side stories emphasize that bromance is doomed, that one should not trust one’s best friend or brother to have their back, neither should one have their brother’s back if circumstances dictate not to. And they are going out of their way to create those circumstances that tear the characters apart so they could pound this message deeper into our skulls that being brothers, blood or otherwise, is bound to lead to toxic codependency and there’s no way to separate the two.

Personally I don’t think that’s true. There were hints in the earlier seasons of Supernatural that made me believe this wasn't what the show intended to suggest. The codependency was Dean’s hang up, instilled in him by John as a safeguard for his youngest son. I always imagined Sam would eventually free Dean from it through his wisdom and sense of independence. I could see Dean shedding his fear of losing Sam like old skin, accepting the fact that Sam was now an adult that could live on his own, and that the only thing he needed from Dean was his companionship and love. That would have been the surgery that would remove the hang up from the love, the codependency from the bro-bond, and leave both brothers stronger and happier for it.


But now we have the opposite. The brotherly bond is at its weakest while the codependency is thriving, and both Sam and Dean appear wounded and miserable.

Carver and the writers may not think this is a problem. But viewers and fans are  noticing and the ratings might reflect that (this week was the first time the show’s index was below 1.0.) I am not implying that casual viewers notice and analyze things as keenly as we do, but they know what is entertaining and what is irritating and they may not stick around if something that entertained them for 9 seasons becomes irritating. Unlike us, they won’t hang around message boards and chat rooms, reading metas and reviews and giving the show the benefit of the doubt. When they don't feel entertained they tune into a different channel.


Gripe #1: The Ghostfacers are back. Why?

I don’t like the Ghostfacers for a very basic reason. They aren't so much characters as they are gimmicks. In their earlier appearances the only thing they brought to the show was how much they wanted to cash in on their supernatural hi-jinks to get rich and famous. Cliché comments about going to Hollywood and getting all the girls seemed to be the only vocabulary they possessed.

That gimmick got old fast and the Ghostfacers never developed beyond it. It’s true that this time around they gave them a backstory, but it was not to expand their personality or role on the show. I said this about Garth and I say it here again. If you are going to bring back a character it better be for a good reason, like playing an important role in the plot. Bringing them back just because they exist and people know them is a disservice to the show’s ongoing storylines.

I hear some readers shouting: “But they brought them back because their backstory paralleled Sam and Dean’s,” to which I say, proceed to gripe #2.



Gripe #2: These two stories are NOT parallel

Everyone and their scary Yorkshire Terrier knows the purpose of the Ghostfacers' backstory was to draw a comparison with the current Sam and Dean drama. My question is on what grounds are these two stories related? Ed tricked Harry out of a life with the woman he loved, and a steady job with a nice paycheck. Dean saved Sam from certain death. How they did it and what emotional consequences it brought on doesn't change the fact that the acts and motivations are completely different. It’s like comparing a father who beats his child to a father who takes his child to get vaccinated, and saying they are the same because they both end in the child getting hurt.

If Sam had died he wouldn't have achieved anything. The trials were over and Heaven was in disarray. Sam's soul would have remained in the veil and haunted the bunker until Dean found a way to bring him back or fix Heaven. How is that similar to a man marrying the love of his life and living in prosperity?


You may say both their so called brothers took their choices away. I say no. Both Sam and Harry made those choices themselves. How they were led to them is another difference in the stories, but it won’t add to Ed or Dean’s guilt. Especially in Harry’s case since all Ed did was dangle a carrot in front of him. At least Sam could say he was tricked into being possessed. Still in the end, it was their decision to do what they did. In fact, as I recall, Sam and Dean choosing each other instead of closing the gates of Hell was touted by the showrunner and actors as the highlight of the season 8 finale. We were led to believe this was a good thing, the heartfelt, brotherly thing the show was famous for. Now we’re told it was Dean taking Sam’s choice away.


Gripe #3: would you like a sledgehammer with those metaphors you're shoving in my face?

We get it. Ed is Dean and Harry is Sam. You don’t have to remind us every time Ed and Harry say something about their backstory. Those loaded, minute-long glances between Sam and Dean became cringe worthy after the fourth or fifth time. Subtlety is a trademark of good story telling but the show’s current writers favor ringing alarms and flashing lights. It’s even worse when, as stated in gripe #2, the similarities are flimsy at best.


Gripe #4: How many pop culture references could we fit into one dialogue?

“Facebook,” “Twitter,” “Meme,” “Feels,” “It’s complicated.”

This is another reason I don’t like the Ghostfacers. Their dialogue almost never sounds real. It’s a copy-paste of phrases that only appear on Internet forums. I know the show has an obsession with staying current – even though if math serves us right it should be two years in the future. Still there is a limit to how many references you could stuff in a dialogue before it becomes absurd.

What you reference is important too. Ed’s story about how he started the Thinman legend on an online forum was clever, because that's how the actual Slenderman legend started, which this episode borrows from. But when you become too on-the-nose and obsessive with your pop culture you date your show. Imagine people watching this episode ten years from now, on Blue-ray or whatever the technology will be at that time, and smiling at comments about Facebook and Twitter much like we would if we watched something that kept referencing Myspace or ICQ.


Gripe #4: Sam and Dean and the Days of Their Lives

I have grown tired of the drama between Sam and Dean. I resent it because it makes me think things about my favorite characters that lessen my fondness of them.

In the beginning of this episode, when Dean was going off solo, Sam’s insistence to go with him sounded too much like emotional manipulation. He had made it clear he doesn't want to talk to Dean. Yet he also doesn't approve of Dean wanting to be on his own. It’s like Sam is trapping Dean in situations where he can’t win. If he had come to Sam to tell him about the case Sam could have shut him down and walked away, like he did last episode. Now that he didn't Sam still objects.

Some fans claim it’s because they had an agreement to work together without being brothers. Based on that Dean is obligated to take Sam with him on jobs. I don’t recall this agreement. I remember Sam saying “If you want to work, let’s work. But if you want to be brothers--,” and leaving it at that. Dean didn't give a response. They both walked away, like they usually do this season. We don’t know whether or not Dean had a responsibility to tell Sam about the new case or if he had a right to go on his own, because as usual the writer left it open to interpretation. We couldn't decide who was in the right in that particular argument and, once again, it resulted in speculations and squabbles across fandom forums.


My problem with the idea of working together while being the way they are is that I don’t think it’s possible. When two people, even two coworkers, reach an impasse in their relationship they have two options: they could sit down – preferably with a counselor – and work through their issues until they move past them, or they could go their separate ways, even if only for a while. Sam’s demand to work together while being at odds - if that's truly what he wants - sounds too much like wanting to both have his cake and eat it. He doesn't talk to Dean yet wants him to work with him side by side. Beside the fact that that makes for a very uncomfortable working environment, it confuses Dean – and us – as to what Sam’s intent really is. Is it to punish Dean for what he’s done? Or to break the family ties without missing out on the family business? Or to control their relationship until he’s sure Dean won’t step out of line? Or to prove to himself he could work with Dean without needing Dean to save him?

The writers started this feud and they stuck with it until now, yet each and every update they make to it – whilst dragging it to infinity – makes it harder to accept. The fact that it is the only storyline they are giving the brothers makes it even worse. I and a lot of other fans dislike the constant resentment. But the way they have advanced the story they either have to stretch it to the end of the season, to give it a proper conclusion, or drop it abruptly and without a clear resolution. Neither prospect feels appealing to me.

As always, the comment section is open for you to rant on the gripes, add your own, or discuss the show in general. You could also throw darts at me, Carver, the writers or the Ghostfacers if you wish so.


Tessa

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twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

164 comments:

  1. I agree Ed and Harry are so different from Sam and Dean. But I will agree with Gripe #4 where I was glad to see Dean researching on his own heck he has his own computer now to look for cases and plus he is giving Sam the space he needs. So I think wanting to do a hunt alone is not something I can see why Dean would go it alone. But yea I am with Dean I have no clue what Sam wants out of Dean. If they are not brothers right now I mean they are not employees so Dean wanting to hunt alone should not surprise Sam. Sam didn't look like he was looking up stuff to hunt. Not sure what Sam was up to. But to me I am enjoying this because I think before MoC Dean would have figured out how to apologize to Sam and the family drama would have ended. But I think MoC is messing with him. Him and Sam are separating more and more. Yes I think after what Kevin said Dean wanted to chat it out Sam didn't to soon. But I think longer dean has that mark on him the further away the brothers are going to get that Sam will end up without family. I keep thinking end of season to keep sam safe Dean will leave so he won't hurt sam anymore. Just thinking out loud.

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  2. I had to think after reading this. Sadly, I find myself in agreement. I also did not like Dean murdering the Thinman. Out of character in my opinion.

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  3. Excellent review, thanks.

    I completely agree w/ you on every gripes. About #1, I liked GF, I liked their comedy, and by bringing them here just to finish them w/ a sad departure, they managed to ruin that comic aspect for me, but well, ruining is a common trend in SPN for almost 2 years now.

    One thing I disagree w/ you about the codependency, Dean never imprisoned Sam b/c he couldn't leave him out of his sight. He could always live w/o Sam and go after his hunting, as long as he was sure Sam was living his life. He was just happiest when he was w/ Sam, just like Sam. And that line 'I'll kill myself if Sam dies' was resolved in SS. About Sam, after S1 Sam embraced the hunting life and chose to be w/ Dean b/c he loved to be w/ him.

    Yes, they should have balanced the plot lines and given Sam one or two opportunities to show the same devotion to Dean we saw from Dean, that was the problem, not how they were willing to sacrifice for each other. As you said, lots of people were invested in this strong brotherly bond.

    All those examples you mentioned about Dean stepping on his morals were in Carver era, there was hardly anything toxic about this codependency before. Carver created these fake issues and he's doing a worse job resolving them.

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  4. Thanks for the comment. I see a lot of people invested in the MoC storyline and making speculations about how it affects Dean and his behavior toward Sam. So far however there's been little canon evidence to support that. I'm sure they will bring it up eventually, pretty soon even judging from spoilers. But until they do, we don't know what's going on, and the only thing we could assume is this is how the brothers treat each other these days.


    As for Dean figuring out how to apologize to Sam, I don't think that's possible. At least not until Sam agrees to talk to him. It's impossible to apologize to someone, or really do anything, when the other person actively avoids you. Pushing the matter and trying to find ways to force it on them will only make it worse.

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  5. Thanks for commenting.


    The codependency discussion is a tough one, particularly because it has been mixed with the brotherly bond for so long. I agree that Dean didn't imprison Sam or force him to stay with him. Indeed Sam never had any troubles with this aspect of their relationship until Carver came along. The problem however was two things: one, Dean pretty much discarded everyone else in order to stay joined at the hip with Sam (Cas, Benny, Lisa and Ben,) and two, as you said, Sam never got to contribute to the relationship in the same way. While Dean was selling his soul to the devil and getting tortured for 30 years just to keep Sam alive, Sam wasn't even allowed to rescue him from Hell. Instead he fell into darkness and punched Dean in the jaw. As you said, it would have been great if they showed Sam take the driver's seat fer a change and be the one to worry/fret/try to rescue Dean. But Dean doing it all the time, and resorting to questionable ways at times, crystallized the toxic codependency out of the brotherly love for me.

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  6. Yes, the killing of humans has become an issue. But it had happened before on the show so I didn't list it as a gripe. It's sad though to see they have shed that rule with both possessed and unpossessed people.


    Thank you for the comment.

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  7. I totally agree with that how is Dean supposed to apologize when he really can't because there is no dialogue. I think right now Dean looking for hunts on his own and keeping his distance speaks volume he is giving Sam what he wants and when they want to talk it out I am thinking Sam will have to start it. I think Dean is sticking with the fact he wouldn't take back what he did I think doing differently so Kevin was not in crossfire as well as probably cas and Charlie. But very well said :)

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  8. What's bothering me at the moment, is that we keep getting MOTW but we have so much mytharc stuff that is being ignored and I'm worried that it's all going to be rushed again at the end. We have Crowley V Abbadon, Crowley's addiction, Sam V Dean, Dean V Abbbadon, Mark of Cain, Sam V Gadreel, Gareel & Metatron in partnership doing... something? that hasn't been mentioned since Gadreel killed Kevin I don't think, Angel war (again), Reopening Heaven, Angels V Metatron and finally Cas V Metatron (I'm probably missing one or two because I've just stopped being bothered to keep track until there is some kind of pay off). It's all just jumbled up and crowded when nothing is being developed. It's ridiculous.

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  9. Ben and Lisa were in the picture until soulless turned Dean into a vamp. And Dean went to say good bye to LIsa because he figured Samuel would kill him because Sam wouldn't do it. So bad thing did was to say good bye to Lisa. He pushed Ben and that is what did their relationship in. Dean was all set to visit Lisa before he got changed into a vamp. I think Dean regretted not having Benny in his life but I think that Benny was so dependent on dean to make sure he wouldn't drink anyone. It was not so bad in purgatory the cravings were not there but guessing top side had to be hard for Benny. And Cas I feel Sam knows Cas and Dean are friends but I think Gad didn't want Cas around not Sam. And Cas and Sam shared a hug so I think Cas is a part of team free will. He was never discarded. Dean and Cas have had their outs but always made up. But right now Cas is trying to fix heaven. And Dean is calling Crowley more then praying to Cas. Cas is being replaced by Crowley temporarily.

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  10. I don't think it is the Mark of Cain that is doing anything, but agree before now Dean would have found a way to apologise and the drama would have ended. I think the bunker has more to do with making this rift go on.


    Before the boys had the choice of three things, sit in the car and have the atmosphere drive them insane or to the point of exhaustion where one of them has to at least give the appearance of letting things go. They could have gone to Bobby's and one of them (mostly Dean) be told to suck it up after Bobby gets an explanation of why they are both being petty or both could split up and not have the other about while ruminating on things.


    With the bunker the two of them now have a third option, which most people should be familiar with if they live with someone.


    Before Sam would have noticed any change in Dean's demeanor that was caused by the mark because they'd be in each others company either 24 hours a day or if they had split until they had gotten over his anger he'd have come back to see Dean has changed. Now the brothers are stuck in a new situation, they both have a home with more space than they ever had and which has no one else about to hold them to the obligation that they had at Bobby's (its his place and his rules), if they split up one loses that which neither wants to do, but they can't get enough space from each other to see what the other wants or needs because the person who has pissed them off or is confusing the hell out of them could be in their personal space at any given moment.

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  11. Agree 100%. I don't even think they'd bother with a resolution for half of those. There's only 8 episodes left and the backdoor pilot of Tribes to take care of. They will probably kill off the main player and drop some of those arcs that way, like they did with Naomi last season, and Bartholomew last week. These writers are no strangers to euthanizing their own storylines when the pen gets too crowded.

    MotW episodes used to be a way to take a break from heavy mythology, now it's a way to avoid dealing with it.

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  12. I agree with you pretty much. As much as I hate to see the rating fall, maybe this will act as a wake-up call to the writers that the fans are sick of the brother angst. I feel like the writers knowingly keep themselves on a bubble about these things. Just like they did back in season 8 with Dean's story. Fans aren't watching for a soap opera story-line, you would think that would have been obvious with how badly the similarly soap operaish Samelia arc was taken by fans. But no. We are getting 10% actual supernatural/case and 90% relationship drama.

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  13. I do not think Dean will apologize if he thinks and continue's to think he did nothing wrong where Sam is concerned because he will always justify saving Sam anyway he has to regardless of how much it impact's Sam . Sam is not going to feel comfortable opening dialogue when he know's this , If Dean had truly wanted to apologize he has had chance's and did not .

    Sam has got alot of blame for the current situation which has not exactly made the fandom look good but until Dean move's past his own entrenched view then there will not be progress .

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  14. I forgot there is a lot of room where Dean can isolate and look for cases in his room since he now has his own computer. And Sam seems to do whatever Sam does. But yep big bunker not like they will run into each other unless like Dean did told Sam he was going out to work on case. See the rift is not bothering me really that much I am curious to see now how it is playing out. With me Dean is now abiding by the rules Sam has laid out with not brothers just working together. I mean we don't get the talks on the impala all we get is someone saying the other guy won't be next to me. To me Ed or Harry whichever one was in the back of the car either has to man up and forgive whats his name eventually. I mean those two were more melodramatic then Sam and Dean are. I mean Sam has a reason to be mad yes he had an angel inside him. But to me its like ok you are working with your brother in hopes of repairing this or what?? I am confused??? I mean Dean could see him at hunts if Sam shows up there. But its funny how if you know your brother so well you don't notice changes granted like Dean has said he understands demons but people are just plain nuts. and I agree with him that the girl had no reason to die because she didn't go out with him really?? he was a psycho and granted I thought it was interesting watching dean get the knife into him I am all for Dark Dean have been since the end. So I am looking forward to what will happen and sorry went off of what you said BUT I DO AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID. And then I rambled on sorry.

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  15. I don't think Sam wants an apology (actually right now it's near to impossible to figure out what he wants), b/c Dean expressed and showed how sorry and devastated he was by the all ordeal. Dean would never say he wouldn't try to save his brother, no loving brother would say such thing and Sam/Carver expecting it to be the right and mature demeanor is strange and honestly insane. Besides, Sam was harsh even before Dean said he wasn't wrong in saving Sam.

    What I see right now is that Sam just wants to be pissed at Dean. He doesn't talk, he doesn't try fix things, he doesn't care he's ruining a life-long bond and losing his only family. I'm not sure if it's intended or it's bad writing, whatever it is, it's irritating and show-killing.

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  16. I see the connection between Ed and Dean because both of them were trying to cover all their bases yet Sam points out: “Listen, if you don't tell him, he's gonna leave anyway".

    I think the taking the choice away from Sam refers more to the possession and lying about it. Dean was convinced that Sam would rather die than agree to possession but he goes ahead with it regardless. Clearly, he did not trust Sam to make a choice about his own life, body and mind. Dean was covering his bases so Sam would not come to a resolution that would be the wrong one from Dean’s point of view. Sam might want to move on anyways if Dean told him but if Dean kept it from Sam then Sam would find out only when he would be healed and unable to die until he committed suicide. Yet it’s not on Dean to make that call.

    Dean says: "What I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again" but until he can admit that the decisions he made were partly for his own sake, he and Sam won’t get closer to being brothers.

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  17. I admit Dean's attitude about always being right is a problem. He pulled it with Cas in season 6 and look how that ended. Sam absolutely deserved to be given the option whether to be possessed or not and Dean took that away from him.


    Problem is Sam wasn't thinking clearly either. He knew Heaven was post hurricane so it made no sense for him to ask Death to kill him permanently. If Dean knew that was what Sam wanted - which apparently he did - it's hard to blame him for taking the initiative in the nick of time. He probably thought Sam was in too much pain to think clearly and was just looking for a way out.


    This whole storyline is full of holes. No matter from which brothers' perspective you look at it there are ways to argue for or against it.

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  18. I think the initial possession might be less of an issue for Sam. It’s the continuing of the charade even while they were settled down already that incriminates everything. Dean could have explained his choice at the hospital by saying that there was no time to tell the plan to Sam but he went ahead with it because the point of Sam stopping the trials was so he would not die (this is even what Sam thought) and Sam deserves more etc.

    I don’t think Dean can put the lying entirely on Gadreel because Dean also had leverage. If in his heart he truly wanted to be honest with Sam, he would have gotten his way.

    I think Sam asked his decision to be final so that he could protect Dean from making a deal and to make it hard for anyone with an evil agenda to resurrect him.

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  19. I agree that Dean right now is abiding by Sam rules but seeing how Sam can't be sure as when Dean could pop up in his face because even though the bunker is huge they know each is still in it, Sam can't get the perspective he needs to get over things. He's got enough space to stay pissed but not enough to realise that even with Dean's part Sam himself said Yes without finding out the details, that he was giving out mixed messages to people - he wants to live through the trials, he wants to die for the trials, he wants to give up the trials to prove to Dean he can try something else, he just wants to die.


    I think that is one thing that Jenny Klein was also putting in something else in this one along with every other sledge hammer that went in there, because part of me is hoping the sledge hammers were her also saying to the other writers 'here we are outright telling them we want them to get the 'lies hurt people' and 'Dean was bad because of the angel thing' so can we get back to something else here. In there was a thing was a lot about mixed messages, not communicating properly with others to the point it drives people to do stupid and desperate things which wouldn't happen if as you put people would man up and say what they truly want.


    Like it or not, lies or not, simply put Ed dangled a carrot, Harry did not have to dump the girl and the job. He could have told Ed no. What Dean did was put an option in front of Sam, Sam took it. Not Sam or Harry looked at other options, the ones they said they wanted. Both 'couples' had a failure to communicate what they were feeling, Ed and Dean's were overt in their actions - neither wanted to lose their 'brother', but Harry and Sam's were sending out mixed messages saying one thing and doing another causing confusion in their work partner. Neither Sam or Harry has told their other brother that they could be in their lives even if the present arrangement changed, because Sam in season 8 never explained to Dean that he could still be his brother and in his life even if he didn't hunt, now it is work or brothers not both but he isn't happy if Dean goes off on his own.


    Even the story from Sam and Dean's childhood is kind about bad communication. Dean was superman, it would make sense he would jump from a roof to fly. Superman can fly. Batman can't so Sam being dressed as batman would mean he couldn't fly, why would Dean think he would jump. But Sam at 5 wasn't playing superman and batman. He was playing superheroes and seeing how him and Dean were both in costumes and both superheroes in Sam's head why couldn't he do what Dean did, even dressed as Batman. 9 year old Dean's actions and motives clean cut especially seeing how he drove his little brother straight to the ER on his bike, probably still in his superman costume. Sam's even at 5 was giving out mixed messages - he's dressed as batman but he's not batman seeing how he tried to fly.


    See I can ramble too - it seems necessary watching this show

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  20. I think Sam asked his decision to be final so that he could protect Dean from making a deal and to make it hard for anyone with an evil agenda to resurrect him.


    But that only would have been possible if there was a Heaven for Sam's soul to ascend to so Dean could have been assured his brother's soul was at peace. With Heaven the way it is and souls not entering it Sam's soul would have been wandering earth and eventually bumping into Dean, especially with all his possessions all over the bunker. Dean would have found out about this and it would have propelled him into yet another panicked attempt to save Sam's soul through shady deals and nasty back alley practices.

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  21. As sad as it is to say, that scene didn't seem as OOC to Dean as many seem to think. Over the years, Sam has had to pull Dean back from killing more than once, especially when Dean doesn't think he has anything to lose which appears to be how he is feeling now. The resigned, resolved expression he had on his face at the end of the last ep said that to me, although others seemed to think he just looked PO'd. He's closing himself off from everyone and his hurt feelings.
    So, as much as viewers would like to blame the MoC, I'm not sure that's what's at work here. Dean saw in season 5 that Sam was what kept Dean human and right now he doesn't have that. He already believes he's a cold blood killer as evidenced in this season's "First Born" and in his POV the "Thinman" was a monster, even if he was human. Dean kills monsters. Dean is a killer. The End, no pun intended.
    The foreboding we all felt was because we know how Dark Dean can go and the expression he had on his face when he did kill reminded me of his face when he was "asked" to "question" Alistair. That had nothing to do with the MoC. That was how dark Dean himself had gone. Granted, that was in Hell, but it also came back with him since he remembered every bit of that time, including how he enjoyed part of it.
    Combine that with the MoC influence that's coming, if the writers don't back off from that storyline, like they have on several of Dean's, and Dean could go very dark before Sam figures out what he's doing to get his point across to Dean isn't working. (No, I'm not saying that Sam needs to drop it but he does need to clarify or something because as Dean pointed out at the beginning of this ep, Dean doesn't have a clue what Sam wants and is only being hurt by it with no end in sight, Hence, Dean's closing off, isolating and resignation.)
    As things currently stand, this doesn't end well for anybody.

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  22. I was referring to your text: Problem is Sam wasn't thinking clearly either. He knew Heaven was post hurricane so it made no sense for him to ask Death to kill him permanently.

    I don’t see that as proof that Sam wasn’t thinking straight. He was doing it to make sure no one could get hurt.

    I think the idea that Sam would have definitely ended up like Kevin is still questionable because Charlie seemed to have gone to Heaven.

    Even if Sam would have become a ghost, I hope the show won’t focus on that because to me that is besides the point (much like Kevin’s death shouldn’t continue to be the issue that is concentrated on). I don’t think it was shown at the hospital that Dean was concerned what would happen to Sam’s soul so Dean pulling out the ghost card would feel disingenuous.

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  23. I don't think there is any reason to worry about the ratings. The show has its highest viewership since season 5. Yeah, this episode was the lowest for the season, but I'm guess that was because everyone knew it would be about the ghostfacers (bleh). I actually didn't expect any progress to be made on the Sam/Dean story.

    With the way this episode ended though, I actually have hope that the brothers are going to come to terms in the next episode or 2.

    They got to have the discussion without actually having the discussion. Yeah, it wasn't a perfect analogy, but so what? There is no such thing as a perfect analogy. Sure, the point of the episode was very obvious and the long looks killed any subtlety, but they needed to have shots of Sam & Dean, otherwise it would have just been an episode of The Ghostfacers (and then you really would have had something to complain about!)



    I really expect them to get over this very soon. Unfortunately, we have to wait 2 weeks. Then we have 2 episodes for them to get back in the swing of things. Then a longer gap. Then 5 hopefully meaty episodes filled with good storyline stuff, plus the Tribes episode thrown in the middle.


    After this episode I just don't see them dragging this on to the end of the season. Watching the ghostfacers did far more for them than Kevin's motherly scolding ever could "Now you boys hug and say you're sorry".

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  24. Watching the ghostfacers did far more for them than Kevin's motherly scolding ever could "Now you boys hug and say you're sorry".


    I'm confused by this because it sounds like you're saying the Ghostfacers' story somehow helped improve the brothers' relationship. To me it was just more validation that separation was the best idea. And since the show can't separate its leads and still be the show, I don't know what they are planning to do with this.

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  25. The problem is, the only apology Dean has to give is "I'm sorry... but I'd do it again." The way this season has gone, Dean needed to either have an epiphany and see it from Sam's point of view, or Sam needed to come to terms with Dean not being able to change who he is. I think this episode helped to shorten the gap between them. If Dean can change a little bit, I think Sam can move on.

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  26. I agree that if this ep had only been about the GFs, I would have absolutely hated it. As it was, I barely saw any point to it, considering I didn't buy the parallels at all. To me, it demeaned Sam's position and didn't even come close to Dean's position. I was outraged on Sam's behave at that parallel, and considering how I feel about Sam and his position, that's saying something.
    I do have to disagree, however, about a possible reconciliation, mainly, because of the MoC. I think the isolation is required for that storyline to continue. Of course, it wouldn't be the first storyline they've dissolved for Dean, but I hope they don't do it this time.
    Or the attempted reconciliation will come too late, leaving the MoC the foothold it needs to carry on over to Season 10
    Of course, I'm one of the ones who, like Dean, are clueless as to what Sam actually wants but does understand that Dean cannot honestly promise not to save Sam again. I mean, he can say he promises but he won't mean it and we, including Sam, all know it. Not trying to excuse, because I agree he needs to stop this at all costs thing, but I do understand that all that childhood and adult training of family first, and protect at all costs, even your own life, cannot be just turned off, no matter how old you are. Even when you actively try to deny it, it's like living without ever taking a breath, which kills you. It only appears to be easy to break to someone who hasn't been through it. The only way it tends to work is if you aren't around them anymore. JMHO.

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  27. But what change exactly does Sam require? That's the question I can't figure out and I don't think Dean can either.

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  28. It allowed them to step outside of themselves and see the inevitable outcome of their dispute if they don't do something about it before it's too late.

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  29. "The writers started this feud and they stuck with it until now, yet each and every update they make to it – whilst dragging it to infinity – makes it harder to accept. The fact that it is the only storyline they are giving the brothers makes it even worse."


    Yep, there is no mission in the Carver seasons - that pans out, last season was 'close the gates to hell' with a side of 'raiders of this lost ark' mission of finding tablets, last season I was grateful that Carver was 'brave enough' to drop the Amelia storyline and go for something new 'Metatron' but the season was bogged down with too much filler, and the mythological episodes were all crammed into the last three of the season, which rid the show of any tension or sense of danger, let's put it this way, one great opener, one good mid-season finale and one very good final episode do not a great season make.


    We have the very same problems in season nine, too much filler, some very clunky writing with no sense of who the brothers are (even Jared and Jensen had to switch character lines in two different episodes because the lines were wrong for either Sam or Dean) it's never been stated outright the goal is for the bros to team up with their sometime angel Castiel and wrest Heaven from Metatron, or if the goal is to favour Crowley over Abbadon or let them destroy each other ala Godzilla and Mothra.


    Let's not even touch on how the much longed for storyline of Castiel becoming human panned out, and how ever since, he's been relegated once again to the drive-by mention and off doing angel things somewhere.


    the feeling I have is that while Jared, Jensen, Misha are invested emotionally in the show, and the crew is devoted if only for a great steady gig, the writing and production teams don't give a shit, and are spending time and effort with their new spin-off concept, maybe the feeling is that the fandom (which is incredible) will continue to carry the show, so quality doesn't matter, and it's a crying shame, because Sam, Dean and Cas, and the world they inhabit, along with the fantastic talents of it's stars and guest stars and design and sound deserve more.


    In a perfect world, for season ten, I get back Kripke and have Ben Edlund run the show, it would certainly take risks and never be deadly dull, not to mention hella fun to watch - and incidentally characters would be in character and continuity would not be thrown out the window (and not even in that freeze frame fade to black serviceable quality)

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  30. I'm not real excited for the MoC storyline if it means a continuation of this feud. The wide variety of storylines they have going on have largely been put on hold this season while we deal exclusively with the bond between Sam & Dean. It's like the whole world is holding its breath waiting to see what they do. In past seasons, when they had big issues, the s*** continued to hit the fan while they worked things out. Presumably there are really interesting things going on out there, but we aren't seeing hardly any of it. They have a very serious demon and angel infestation and Thinman is their top priority?

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  31. " They have a very serious demon and angel infestation and Thinman is their top priority?"
    Now this I wholeheartedly agree with! Let's get back with the main story here.

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  32. I think Sam wants to have the final say in his own life, he's an adult. Dean is constantly treating him like "I'm your older brother Sammy, and I know better than you do what is best for you."


    They should look after each other like brothers, it should not be Dean looking over Sam like a father.

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  33. Last episode was truly the 'anvil chorus' of 'get the paralells?' to put it bluntly, and not to dismiss the quality acting of AJ and Travis, no one cares about the Ghostfacers compared to Sam and Dean, as the Ghostfacers always wanted fame and notoritey, where did Harry's sudden 'we want to help people' come from? the analogies between the two pairs were forced and so did not resonate (more than a groan) the story of Sam and Dean didn't advance, but stayed still, as it has much of this season, (Sam was mostly passed out)


    Remember that most of the scenes where Harry and Ed talk, Sam and Dean aren't there to listen, Harry and Ed were preaching to the already very weary audience.

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  34. For just a moment in this episode, they forgot their feud and remembered a childhood moment when they were brothers (having fun and looking after each other), a moment that Dean wasn't acting like his guardian.

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  35. I agree that the storyline is full of holes, it doesn't make logical sense, for Sam to say Dean never sacrificed for him, or for Dean to say that being pulled out of Hell without a soul was Sam's fault. The writers are paid to put the brothers through their paces, but they never move forward, they keep the brothers in conflict, and either the contrivance works (which having Gadreel possess Sam did work at the beginning, better than killing Amy ever did) but it's been stretched waayyyy too long. There were 6 episodes out of 23 where Sam was unconscious, and about 5 episodes where Sam has been mulishly pouting in a corner, and Sam deserves better than that.

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  36. We are getting 10% actual supernatural/case and 90% relationship drama.



    THANK YOU!

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  37. "Sam pals with Cas"



    You mean Ruby?

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  38. The problem with that is that Dean did act like his father for a majority of their lives, plus he's on over-protective big brother. To ask him to ignore and not act on those instincts is for Dean to deny who he is which is asking a helluva lot and Dean's probably being the most honest he's ever been in saying that he can't do that.
    I'm not saying that Dean doesn't need to cut the apron strings (I've personally been hoping for that for a while). Even though, I mainly understand and like Dean, I've wanted him to stop sacrificing for Sam for a while. BUT the whole series is based on this overtly 'codependent' relationship which admittedly is more on Dean's side because of his background than Sam's. Definitely not a diss at Sam who has a much more normal view of the world and knows some lines should not be crossed, no matter what.
    I don't think the writers know how to correct this part of their relationship AND still keep them together against all odds without it, considering how often they are at death's door. They managed it in season 5, only IMO because it was supposed to be the end of the series. The only way they could fix it at the being of this season was with the move of angel possession, because the demon deal had already been done. I remember at the time wishing they would just let Sam die because I knew what Dean was going to do and how the fandom would be up in arms about it, including me. But they had to have Dean do it because there was no other way they could think of to save Sam. And without Sam there was no Supernatural.

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  39. Possibly, probably, but MY jury is still out, considering Dean knows exactly how Crowley is manipulating him and Dean's planning on killing him as soon as he's done with Abby. He knows he's being conned and is going along with it. Eyes wide open. It didn't seem that way with Sam and Ruby.

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  40. Actually his absolute calm acceptance when his throat was about to be sliced was more disturbing and saddening for me. He didn't even flinch. It's like he's dead already.

    Besides, they were murderers and guilty, so no problem here.

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  41. See that I don't see as true because Dean has given Sam the options its like when they fought over Benny. Dean said to sam "don't you have a girl to get back to" Dean was giving Sam and out Dean would handle what was going on with Cas on his own. Also the trials Dean wanted to kill another hell hound Dean knows how his life is going to turn out every time Dean tries to take over something Sam wants to do it. And Sam is doing it because of Dean he doesn't want to look like a failure. Its like the soulless thing he didn't want to have his soul he would have rathered killed bobby and stayed soulless but soulless stayed with Dean why??? Souless was away from Dean a year he gets back with him and stays with him??? Sam has options to leave Dean does he no. He could have said NO dean I want to finish the trials and did so he didn't He could have said No dean I want to go with Death again he didn't. He said yes to stopping and just agreeing with whatever Dean/gad said. He can't say no to dean its like why are they working together? They can meet up at hunts sam can be a the bunker if Dean is at the hunt great work with him. But nope Sam said we work and not brothers and that's what Dean is giving him. But Dean wil not change because situation not best but SAMMY IS ALIVE that is all Dean sees.

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  42. I wonder if they might bring out the veil bit and say that if Dean had acted based on what he believed (that Sam would rather die than say yes to being possessed and was ready to go) then Dean would have been “rewarded” by having more time with Sam (uninterrupted, 24/7, no-escape quality time) while he worked to truly save his brother or maybe he could have even figured out a way to get Sam back for real without risking his brother or others getting hurt since Sam was still in the veil and hadn’t moved on to the other side yet.

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  43. I agree. Of course, he's already dead. What has he got left worth living for if his own brother has disowned him. He already believes he's poison to those around him so, to him, his death would save Sam from Dean causing him any more pain.

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  44. I actually liked this episode a lot; but I thought there was movement on this God-awful Winchester teen angst story. I will admit, the first time I watched it, I just got tired from the anvils. It wasn't until the second viewing that I formed a clearer idea (for myself anyway) of what I thought the episode was about.
    Despite the concussion inducing anvils, I felt that Harry and Ed were shown to be very different than the Winchesters in that (a) the GF story was so trivial as compared to Sam and Dean's and (b) the GF are still shown as civilians trying to achieve fame and money by playing with the supernatural. The thing is, though, that their meddling and the two bad guys who invoked Ed's creation as cover for their psychotic killings actually called in the supernatural -- the Winchesters. I felt that it was nice, for a change, to link the Winchesters back to the supernatural and the environment they should be working in instead of the stupid teen angst story. I will add that I really do not like the turn the show has taken in depicting hunting as something crummy and awful and nobody should do it, as well as that family will do nothing but cause you problems and make you miserable.
    Like you said, the brothers' story this season is flat-out irritating, and I hope never to see another teen angst story on Supernatural again. I would be happy if they were permanently split up from here on out. But in this episode, I think there are sign's of Dean isolating himself -- protecting himself from Sam -- from Cas, and from humans in general, and with that comes hope of finally seeing a DarkDean. God, I've been waiting nine years for that. I hope that's where the show goes and that Dean finally has a story that is not dropped.
    One big gripe I have, and you touched on this, is that Sam and Dean are not connected to any story but their "issues." Both the angel war and the demon war are happening off-screen, so much so that I've lost interest in them. I assume Crowley wants to use Dean as his tool somehow. I assume Cas is taking care of Metatron and the angel war and Gad will be involved in that in some way. I don't care at all, because Cas is a support character and I haven't been into this for nine years to watch Cas. I assume Sam is just there to be mad about something still actually unspecified, and he will be used somehow to pull Dean back from the dark.
    I am interested in the fact that Sam, having disowned Dean as a brother, has now lost all mediating power he had with Dean, so it will be interesting to see how the writers plan on Sam getting that back (do the writers even realize that???).

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  45. Sam was very untrusting of Ruby in the beginning. Ruby did a few awful things (though she reserved most of her bad behavior for demons), but Sam kept letting her live so he could use her, much like Dean and Crowley now. It wasn't until Sam got hooked on demon blood that they became partners in crime. Here they've just turned it around and made Crowley the addicted one. Crowley continues to kill and torture people (such as Kevin's mom), but Dean doesn't seem all that bothered by it because Crowley is still useful. His eyes don't seem to be open at all to me.

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  46. " I assume Sam is just there to be mad about something still actually unspecified, and he will be used somehow to pull Dean back from the dark.
    I am interested in the fact that Sam, having disowned Dean as a brother, has now lost all mediating power he had with Dean, so it will be interesting to see how the writers plan on Sam getting that back (do the writers even realize that???)."
    Amen to That!!

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  47. I agree with this. I think we were looking at Harry and Ed from Sam and Dean's POV and, from that, they could look at themselves and realize that if something doesn't give, they are going to end up alone like Harry and Ed.
    But what I saw from this is that Dean is going to further withdraw and Sam is so into his own hurt feelings, that he isn't realizing something is going on. I do think he is confused by Dean's reaction to the "professional relationship."
    I also don't have a clue as to what it is that Sam wants.

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  48. They're open. He's just selling more and more of his soul as he continues to work with Crowley, once again thinking the ends justify the means if he's able to kill Abby in the end. Crap. That does sound familiar. At least Sam had the addiction as an excuse. Dean just doesn't care anymore.

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  49. Oh and Dean has been planning on killing Crowley for like 5 season. It's never going to happen. Crowley is the only fun character left on this show, they killed everyone else.

    At this point, I'd rather see Cas die. This season he has fluctuated between dull and over the top silly. I keep getting excited every time he comes on screen, but I have been mostly disappointed. He used to be a great character, but he has become a caricature of himself. Either fix him or kill him off.

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  50. Another great review!



    I really love your gripes, and I especially agree w/#2. I had a real problem w/the heavy handedness of the story, the barrage of parallels, and the flying anvils. It was all a little much, and by the end of the episode I was literally rolling my eyes. I was completely taken out of the episode.



    I am glad you pointed out how Harry made a choice. It really bothered me that the show was acting as if Ed forced Harry to hunt or caused Harry to lose his girlfriend. Harry lost his girlfriend b/c Harry chose the GF and Ed over Harry. That's it. If that girl meant as much to him as he claimed, nothing Ed could have dangled before him would have caused him to leave her. If he was done w/the GF as he claimed, then an interesting hunt wouldn't have lured him back. Clearly, the GF and Ed were more appealing on some level to Harry than this girlfriend and that corporate job. That's what Harry needs to grapple with and accept. I don't think Harry has any room to blame Ed for his decision, and I don't feel any sympathy for him.


    And I also loved that Dean was prepared and ready to go off on his own hunt in the beginning of the episode. I loved that b/c the narrative actually calls for the boys to be apart right now. There is no reason for them to be together. For the past few episodes, I was wondering why they were together and why they would choose to live like they are; it made no sense to me. So, I liked seeing Dean break that mold. It showed some much needed movement in the story, IMO.

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  51. Full of holes is right. The last Dean heard from Alive Sam was that he wanted to live. Then he got a peak in Sam's head and he was all set to go off with Death. To me, after the Sam speech in Sacrifice, the ultimate betrayal of Dean would have been to want to or choose to die after Dean had so earnestly given him the reassurance and hope Sam was looking for in Sacrifice. It makes no sense to me at all, especially Sam knowing that the angels were here carrying on.

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  52. True about Cas. I loved him in seasons 4 & 5 but then they really ruined him. I'm still hoping they would do right by him. Obviously I'm still hoping.

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  53. Excellent point. I wholeheartedly agree with you!

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  54. All this speculation about how this season could be the last for Cas or at least last for Misha as a recurring actor and watching some scenes from season 4 made me realize I wouldn’t be that sorry if it came to pass. The angel storyline peaked during Kripke’s run. I’m not into scenes where Cas is off doing his thing whether it is as a human or as an angel. They tried to resuscitate the friendship between Sam and Cas but I feel it’s too late. At this point I see Cas existing basically for Dean.

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  55. Ok, fine, I'll tell you.


    What Sam really wants is for the writers to give them some good story arc stuff to focus on. Distract them from their differences and get them refocused on their similarities, their desires to rid the world of demons and angels.


    It just seems really hopeless to him right now though, so he keeps quiet and says nothing.

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  56. I commented above before reading the comments. Just want to say this is exactly my feeling. Dean is a vicious, violent person, and I think a lot of fans forget that about him. Sam is the one who keeps Dean in touch with his humanity -- or used to; I'm not sure what Carver's idea is on this. Anyway, without that contact with Sam, Dean is a loose juggernaut. I do feel like Carver won't have the nerve to take Dean too dark. That would be a bold move. I do hope we get some of it, though. I am so sick of this angst. I need some action, horror, and gore for a change.

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  57. I wouldn't call it a betrayal b/c Sam was dying and in a coma. Who knows what he was feeling in that moment?

    However, I still don't know why or how Dean was supposed to know that Sam wanted to die. Dean saw Sam accepting the inevitable. To me, that is different than actively wanting to die, which is what Sam is now claiming. How was Dean supposed to know that, esp. when Sam stopped the trials to live.

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  58. "He doesn't talk, he doesn't try fix things, he doesn't care he's ruining
    a life-long bond and losing his only family. I'm not sure if it's
    intended or it's bad writing, whatever it is, it's irritating and
    show-killing."


    Its intentional. Sam wants to ruin the life-long bond. He sees that bond as the reason why Dean keeps doing reckless thing to save Sam. If he tries to fix things, they'd go back to the way they were before and the same thing will happen again and Sam doesn't want that.

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  59. I'll address this point because I've seen you make the same one a few times already.

    Sam's death, at that point in time, would have been meaningless - that's correct. His dying would not have boarded up hell. He wouldn't have ascended to heaven - though he probably didn't know about that. Even if he did, with his own issues of not being good enough, he'd have probably assumed that he'd go to hell. According to you, once Sam became cognizant of those facts, he should've started getting over it.

    However, Sam did not care about any of it. Whether you see it as OOC or not, Sam was ready to die. He may not have wanted to die, but his Head!Bobby convinced him that if you don't go when you are ready, bad things will happen and other people will die. Which is why he made sure with Death that if he dies no one would be able to deal it away and bring him back. Death is a powerful being who could actually make such an assurance.

    I don't think Sam would've cared about being stuck in veil or about dying a meaningless death. He probably wanted to live even at the moment he said yes to Death - but the thing he was much more afraid of was that he'd be saved - once again - at the cost of someone else getting hurt. Which is exactly what happened. I think that if Dean had saved him in a different way - one which did not end in Kevin dying - he would've been okay with it.

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  60. I don't know if that's what Sam wants or not, but it sure is what I want from the writers.

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  61. I, too, think Crowley is here to stay. There's this new 'thing' going on where things live; besides, I think Crowley's part of the new ensemble cast. I would rather see Crowley go and Abaddon stay. She, at least to me, is a more evil than this new King of Hell filled with humanity.

    It used to be that when Dean said he was going to kill someone, either he did or they died. That changed when Sam killed Sampa, and now Crowley has had a free pass since forever.
    I was ready for Cas to return to Heaven at the end of S5. He was a great character in S4, but I haven't enjoyed him much since then. While I do enjoy Dean/Cas interactions, I don't think he has a role anymore, and I sure don't like him having his own separate story. But, there again, I think Cas is here until the series ends.

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  62. Hi ;)

    When Sam and Dean are with Crowley, things are firing off in all different directions. Crowley seems to have an interest in both Sam and Dean, “they boys”. His relationship with them is quite complex and there is much room for development. Cas’ scenes pretty much work only when he is with Dean. That is a big problem
    considering that the cast is so small and Cas is the most prominent after Sam and Dean.

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  63. Mark of Cain and Cas' handprint are not remotely alike, other than they are marks on Dean's body. The Mark of Cain serves a purpose, Castiel's handprint had none, other a celestial being pulled Dean from Hell.

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  64. It wasn't a mere acceptance; After he found out he was dying, I expected Sam to say sth like "No, not now, I promised Dean, we have work to do, he needs me", or not needing Dean to beg him, again, to live.

    Honestly I don't get what was the point in Carver and the cast to make such a big deal of it and suffocate us w/ "brothers chose each other" when just an episode later Sam was going to move past it w/o even a back glance or half a season later say he was 'tricked'!!!



    Full of plot holes and jumbled characterizations and story progress.

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  65. Also, Sam was't aware of what was going on in Heaven. He saw the angels fall and that was it, he had no idea that Heaven was on lock down until Kevin's ghost appeared in the Bunker.

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  66. If he just wants to ruin, they can go their separate ways and this unwanted bond will severe automatically.
    If he wants to make a 'healthy' bond out of it, his way is not the right method. He's just breaking w/o a single attempt to fix. He's destroying all the bridges behind him, and w/ the amount of damage he's inflicting, there's no guarantee that Dean will accept him again if he ever wants to be brother again.

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  67. I don't think Sam is claiming that he activity wanted to die, just that he was prepared to die. And he obviously has guilt about Kevin, maybe if he died Kevin would still be alive, which leads to him thinking things would have been better off if he had just died.

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  68. Next two episodes are mytharc dealing with the Mark of Cain, episode 18 could either be a MotW or a Cas episode, 19 is another mytharc or MotW depending if episode 18 is a Cas one, 20 is Tribes and then the final 3 are all mytharc stuff.

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  69. Well, Dean and Cas do share a 'profound bond'. ;-)
    I actually enjoy the Dean/Crowley interactions more than any others these days. Crowley is so snarky and it brings out snarky Dean which I enjoy much more than angst Dean.

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  70. I'd say everything from Gadreel taking possession to the fallout is the main Sam/Dean story for the season. The writers have gone on Twitter and said their intention is to breakdown the relationship to build it back up to something stronger, they are treating this fight as swan song, and not sweeping it under the rug after a few episodes.


    The comparison between Sam/Dean and Ed/Harry it's really not different, they are fundamentally the same issues, just at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Dean lied to Sam about Gadreel, which led to Sam's body being used to kill Kevin as well anyone else on Metatron's hit list. Ed's lie to Harry about Thinman snowballed into two psychos going on a killing spree, and ended with Harry taking a human life.

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  71. Yep the snark factor is wonderful. I like the unpredictable nature of Crowley who is not fully cured but has undergone a permanent change and throughout the series has always been less of an outright evil demon and more of an ally and enemy all rolled into one.

    Dean and Cas scenes can sometimes work really really well but for me there is a problem when a character doesn’t really stand on his own yet is a recurring character with a separate storyline and has significant interactions with only one of the two leads.

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  72. Except, Dean's reason for lying was to keep same Sam safe and alive and Ed's reason for lying was to make Harry give up on a normal life and keep Ghostfacers alive. That makes the two issues fundamentally different - not the same.

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  73. That's the point - he doesn't want a brotherly bond, but he does want a professional bond. At this point, he doesn't think he can have a healthy brotherly bond with Dean - any such bond will always end with Dean going to reckless measures to save Sam when he is in danger.

    Sam thought that they had the healthy version of their bond after Season 5. The character growth in that season was about that - Sam had to take responsibility for his actions and try to fix his own mistakes and Dean had to let him go and let him make whatever sacrifices were necessary for it. But that character development didn't last - come season 6, Dean was already trying to blackmail Death into bringing out Sam's soul.

    So, after another iteration of the same pattern, I think does want to burn the bridges. He does not want Dean to accept him back again and he does not want to fix what they had. But he still cares about Dean and he wants to work with him because they make a good team and the job is better when they are together. He also knows it he would easily be able to slide back into old patterns if he gives the whole reconciliation thing half a chance - hence his stubborn attitude towards rebuffing all attempts.

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  74. Well, I think there were definite problems in Harry's relationship w/this girl that had very little to do w/Ed!

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  75. But he keeps saying, "I was ready to die," and I could have sworn he actually said he wanted to die, but I admit that that may have been my own personal interpretation of his words. In any event, all of Sam's claims about dying seem - to me - as if he's saying he wanted to die.

    This story is being so poorly told that I'm not sure what Sam's saying or what he wants.

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  76. I hear what you're saying, but they rarely take an opportunity to show Sam reciprocating Dean's love in some big, flashy way. That would have been nice, but I'm still giving Sam a pass for what was said in his coma state. Haha!

    I couldn't agree more w/the rest of your post though! The characterizations are all over the place!

    **** Please note I said rarely, not never about Sam showing his love for Dean. And my gripe lies w/the writers, not the character. ****

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  77. From Ed's point of view, Harry was going to become a 9-5 drone and he might as well be dead, so he was saving his life.

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  78. Except - despite what Ed thinks - having a 9-5 job and a hot girlfriend is not the same thing as being dead.

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  79. He doesn't want a bond with Dean - but he does want a professional relationship.


    Going another way and leaving Dean does not really break the bond - he was away at Stanford for 4 years, stayed away after hell for one and left Dean in Purgatory for another one. And there were all the other times he walked out in anger. He should know by now that his absence doesn't exactly break the bond - and that if he calls Dean would come running.



    He also doesn't want a healthy bond. He thought they already had the healthy bond, but he was wrong. The whole Season 5 character development was about them building the basis for a healthy bond. Sam's arc was about owning up to his mistakes and doing everything he could to fix them and Dean's arc was about letting him take responsibility and make whatever sacrifices were necessary. But that character development didn't last long - come season 6, Dean was already trying to blackmail Death into getting Sam's soul.



    So, I'd say Sam doesn't want any kind of brotherly bond with Dean - because he thinks it'll always end the same way. He doesn't want to fix it. He doesn't want Dean to accept him again. He wants to burn all the bridges. Having said that, he still cares about Dean and he thinks that they do make a good team and hunting together is less crappy than hunting alone. So he has this new dynamic where they are just professionals working together and he is stubbornly sticking to it - resisting all of Dean's attempts to make him backslide - in the hope that soon it'll stop being uncomfortable and become the norm.

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  80. Hi, there!
    I loved Crowley the first couple of years he was introduced, up until they turned him into nothing but a non-scary screamer. He's only been interesting this season in First Born, but I do think they are taking him somewhere. I'm totally uninterested in Crowley's newly developing humanity, but I think he will try to use Dean as his tool. I just hope the writers remember that Dean isn't a fool and knows Crowley.
    I do agree with you that Cas only works when he's in scenes with Dean. I really don't like him when he's on his own and trying to carry a story.

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  81. I like that Crowley seems to have his thing with both Sam and Dean. I think Sam is “the best he ever had” (:D) because of the blood connection and now he has this new dynamic with Dean. I like how he is always looking at the boys and figuring things out.

    I think that Crowley as a not fully healed demon could carve out his own niche. He already has been shown to keep the deals he makes. I think his appeal has always been more about being amoral but having human qualities whereas Alastair etc. are more demonic.

    The relationship that Cas has had with Sam and Dean has been so lopsided in Dean’s favor that I don’t see much point in trying to do Sam & Cas scenes. However, that makes Cas’ character quite limiting because he can be written pretty much only with Dean since the angels are a bore. Well, maybe Gadreel could do something to revive that storyline.

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  82. But the consequences of those lies still lead to dead bodies.

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  83. The one similar aspect does make for the same fundamental issue.

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  84. And really that's what ultimately matters. The lie may have been bad, but what happen because of it is infinitely worse.

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  85. But the consequences of those lies still led to dead bodies. That's like the example with the father beating his child compared to the father vaccinating him. Both lead to the child feeling pain but for vastly different reasons. Just because the outcome is similar doesn't mean the acts are comparable.

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  86. Still not watched this weeks episode yet. Supernatural was always must watch tv but it's just not fun anymore. I recently rewatched "a bad day at black rock" the rabbit foot episode and it's a sad reminder of just how good this show use to be and how fun the relationship between the brothers use to be.

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  87. LoveDeanandDamon9 March 2014 at 14:53

    I get what you're saying here and it makes sense but for one thing, in my mind.


    Dean has already flat out stated he would save Sam again, in the same manner, if faced with that situation. As the "smart" brother, Sam has to know that hunting together puts that situation back on the table practically every time. Hunting with Dean, knowing hunts often result in life or death circumstances, just makes it look like Sam wants to be pissed and in control of Dean but also keep the safety net that is Dean's obsession with keeping him alive. I just can't believe that Sam thinks he and Dean can be hunting partners, but not brothers, based solely on his say-so. It's been stated many times, over the course of the series, that Sam knows Dean - as much as Dean thinks he knows everything about Sam. If that's true, then it stands to reason that Sam knows very well that Dean will not respect Sam's agency ever in a life or death situation. I just can't get past the having your cake and eating it too thing.


    I have to admit, I've been furious with Sam since The Purge speech but I so adore this show that I've tried and tried to reason my way through his position. I just haven't been able to do it. I've pretty much been stuck with my own opinion which is crappy writing. Since forever, it seems, Sam hasn't really been a character, he's been a plot device. It would seem that the writers just aren't capable of writing Sam as a character anymore. So, back to plot device with his incomprehensible "reasons" for being mad to drive the fix the "toxic" brother bond storyline.


    Sorry for the rambling - I think I've gone a little nuts obsessing over this show! :)

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  88. That was a great episode. It is sad that now we are all waiting, hoping that we will get just one like that again.

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  89. Personally, I don't think a comatose person is in a position to rationally decide what choices he can make. The last Dean heard from Alive Sam was that he wanted to live. In his head, comatose Sam was deciding whether to fight to live or to die. It was only after Sam was healed that he decided his choice was to die because of the way he was healed. Healthy and alive or dead and gone, and Sam's ticked because he isn't dead and gone? Makes no sense to me at all.

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  90. That does not make any sense.



    While its true that Dean taking away Sam's 'control' of his own body is an issue, its definitely not something "he has never really had in his life".

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  91. That sounds like a poor rationalization made on Dean's behalf.


    It doesn't matter if you don't believe a comatose person to be capable of making rational choices - but if the choice they've made is rational then it should be respected.



    Sam was ready to die not because he wanted to or that he was tired of living - he was ready because he was afraid that bringing him back from so close to death would probably mean someone else getting hurt. As far as the Winchesters are concerned, that is one of the worst things to happen to them. It happened to Dean twice - once with the faith healer and the other with his Dad, then there was Dean's own deal which did the same thing to Sam. Sam was afraid of the same thing happening once again - which is why he was making sure with Death that it wouldn't - that this time around no one would get hurt trying to save him or bring him back. That was the sensible choice and Dean not only knew what choice Sam was making and why, he would've made the same choice in that situation.



    But what happened was exactly what Sam was afraid of. If things had turned out a little different - if Gadreel hadn't overheard Dean and Sam had heard his confession and expelled the angel - they probably wouldn't be in the same situation. Sam would've been angry for a while - due to the whole lying and secrets thing - but he'd have gotten over it. But given what did happen, his anger makes sense.

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  92. Legitimate questions, for sure. I go back to the point that has been brought up here that whatever it is Sam wants, it boils down to he wants Dean to change the very person he is and, as a bonus, he threw in that Dean is selfish, never does anything that may hurt himself, and everything that Dean has ever done has turned out bad. I can't get on-board with any of that, or that Sam stays and hunts with this guy he cannot trust for what reason.
    I am really, really opposed to Carver messing with changing the brothers from who they are and, frankly, I see no way that this story is going to end that will satisfy any of the fandom.

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  93. Let me give it a shot.



    What Sam wants is not live with the knowledge that once again someone else had to die so that he could live. Sam didn't have a death-wish - he was not looking for an excuse to die. But he had a a realistic fear that if he was saved at that if he was saved, someone else would get hurt because of it. And he'd have preferred death to letting that happen. And Dean knew that that's what Sam would've wanted. The whole angel possession thing had a distinct demon deal vibe to it. And both Sam and Dean know from experience that those never end well.


    Sam knows that it is their job to go to extraordinary lengths to save people. He wouldn't expect them to make an exception for each-other. So he expects that if his life is in danger, Dean would try to save him and he'd do the same for Dean. He knows that if one goes missing, the other would look for him. So even if they develop a new kind of brotherhood, it wouldn't be one where one of them just lets the other die without doing anything.



    However, there are supposed to be limits to that as well. Dean has an attitude that saving Sam is the right thing no matter what the cost. Sam wants the attitude to be that if the cost is too high, then it is not the right thing. That some things, like possessions, should be off-limits even if it means one of them has to die.

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  94. The biggest issue I see in the series right now is that neither brother really sees or understands the other. They are both trying to manipulate each other to be someone else. It is crazy, but I see their issues mirrored among the fans. Sam fans see things through his point of view with no understanding or leniency toward Dean. Likewise, Dean fans see his point of view, color his actions through his motivations not the results, and have little tolerance for what they see as Sam's overreaction.
    The truth is, as much as we argue our points, I don't think either side is completely correct because both are biased. In the same way, I don't think either brother is completely correct in their arguments either. Sam has said some pretty off the wall things that are frankly incorrect and leave me wondering as to his point, and Dean has yet to acknowledge that lying to his brother was not the way to go. The whole situation is muddy and complicated with a million different aspects to consider, but right now we see it resting on a single question. Is the boys relationship with each other important enough to each of them to fight through this, forgive, and move on? Their is doubt about that at the moment, but in the end I still hold hope that it will work itself out.
    Still, I think in order for that to happen in a satisfactorally manner, two things must happen. First, both brothers must own up to who they are, their own mistakes, and their own responsibilities. Boundaries must be set and agreed upon, but there must be room left for each brother to remain who they are. It can't be a simple 'act this way or else.' There has to be give and take and understanding between them, something that has yet to be seen. Second, it has to hold. This 'every season we can expect to see some major betrayal and fallout between the brothers' has gotten beyond old. You would think after all this time we could come up with some theme to center the season around that doesn't pit one brother against the other or have some major betrayal. I want to see the brothers choose each other, and then remain loyal and dedicated to that choice. Now wouldn't that be something new? But in order for that to happen, we can't just see a bandaid slapped over their issues like we have in the past. Things have to be really resolved, and preferably without placing one brother on a pedestal of 'right' and the other 'wrong.' (We each have to remember that each have had ample time on both of these pedestals throughout the years...as much as we don't like to admit it, neither brother is perfect and always right. They have both made more than their fair share of mistakes) I am hoping this is what the writers are heading for. Can we as fans strive for the same thing?

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  95. Exactly. Saving each other shouldn't be the problem, of course it's the common and rational thing among family. Actually I think the method shouldn't be this problematic either, it was a desperate measure in a desperate time and although it ended tragic for Kevin, it was life savior for Cas, Charlie and Sam too. But Dean should have said the truth to Sam later, and Sam should have accepted it b/c it was the only way to get healed, also he could stay alert to control the angel. THIS is what mature people do.

    But here 'lying' shouldn't make such anger, esp. from Sam, nothing can beat his mess in S4. It's why this whole family drama seems to be fake and exaggerated. They've faced and left behind so much to suddenly hit such a big wall for this petty reason. I could accept this situation when Sam didn't look for Dean, but not here.
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    I really don't think they can clean this fiasco. They say they want to break this toxic codependency and rebuild it as a better healthy one, ... Is it really worth it? Their bond was too precious to be broken this easily. It's like you wreck a magnificent ancient fort to build a modern useful tower in its place. What about the memories, the moral values, the plain beauty? Wasn't it better to repair the places it needed and maintain it?

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  96. I think Sam might realize on some level that their current situation is essentially unworkable - but he is still resolute in trying to make it work because he doesn't see any other option.



    So far the show has been focusing on only one aspect of things - that Sam is pissed off at Dean. Sam is angry at Dean for making the choices he did. He does not think he can forgive his brother. He believes their brotherly bond to be the root cause of those choices and he is hellbent on destroying it. If these were the only emotions at play, then the logical choice would be to walk away from each-other. No matter how good a team they are together, Sam knows that they are good hunters on their own as well and they can handle the job.



    Here's where the other aspects come in. Sam still cares about Dean. And no matter how angry he is at Dean, he probably realizes that Dean is angrier at himself. Its like Crowley said - no one hates Dean more than Dean himself. Sam also sees that Dean is in a downward spiral of self-destruction. The one week they were apart, Dean ended up working with Crowley and accepting the Mark of Cain.



    This part is pure speculation - Sam maybe seeing his past mistakes being repeated with Dean. Sam failed to save Dean from hell and Ruby took advantage of his guilt to lead him down a very bad road. Sam might be thinking that Crowley is doing something similar with Dean - using Kevin's death to his advantage.



    Whatever the precise reasons - I think Sam knows how emotionally vulnerable Dean is right now and he isn't comfortable leaving Dean alone right now. He may not be ready to forgive Dean, but he doesn't want to give up on him either. So he comes up with this new dynamic where they are professionals working together and even though he isn't sure that it'd work in the long term, it is the best he can do right now.





    As a matter of fact, I believe(/fear/hope/expect/dread) that the Mark of Cain storyline might be the one that ends up resolving this fight. Current spoilers suggest that the Mark would be affecting Dean. We may have seen that effect in this episode, when Dean coldly executed that guy, but that's not certain. It might very well turn out that the Mark is turning Dean into a cold-blooded killer and he needs his brother to keep him grounded and in touch with his humanity and not just a hunting partner. At which point Sam would let go of his anger and choose to rekindle their bond.



    If that's the way the story goes, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. On one hand, it'd show that Sam is as willing to make screwed up choices for his brother as Dean is. But that'd be just another way of not resolving anything between them and brushing everything under the table only for it to flare up again next season,

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  97. I'm having the same problem w/this story. The conflict just doesn't feel "real" to me. It's very forced, and I don't feel the writers have done a good job at pinning down the root of Sam's anger. You'd think he be more upset about lies or the possession, but the times he's spoken, he's just gone off on a tangent about being "ready" and "willing" to die.

    So, is he more upset that Dean saved his life regardless of the possession? Does he just want to die the next time he's hurt? And as you said, most family members who love their relatives would try to help save a dying relative's life if he/she could. My sister, a much more casual viewer, says she thinks Sam wants a "DNR" (Do Not Resuscitate). Maybe she's right? Okay. Fine. But he needs to make it clear to Dean that under no circumstances is Dean to ever make any attempts to do anything to save his life if he's hurt. That way it will be clear to Dean.

    I just feel loss as to Sam's issue. Is it the fact that the possession went wrong and resulted in Kevin's death that's the problem or is the possession, itself, that's the problem? Is it the fact that Dean tried to stop Sam from dying? Would Sam not have wanted Cas to lay hands if that's all it took? What's the issue?

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    As a diehard bi-bro fan, I think Carver has chipped away at this relationship too much. Sometimes, you can break something so bad that it can't really be repaired. If we're moving to a point where Dean agrees w/Sam that it was wrong of Dean to even think about saving Sam, then Dean will no longer be Dean. Under Carver, we already have a Sam that won't look for or attempt to save Dean under any circumstances if it requires even the most minimal of effort, so I'm not looking forward to Dean being morphed into the same kind of nonchalant, indifferent guy.

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  98. I agree with this to a point, but the fact remains that Sam wants to establish parameters for Dean to be who he is and asking him to change. In other words, if an innocent and Sam are being threatened by a demon at the same time, Sam wants Dean to save the innocent and let Sam be killed. Dean can't do that, and I point to Henry Winchester, their own grandfather, as an example of that. Dean, thinking he could save both, actually sacrificed Henry for Sam's life.

    Plus, you are saying that Sam is being given justification for not looking for Dean in Purgatory; that he thinks some other innocent might possibly have been hurt if he actually looked for Dean, let alone found out he was in Purgatory. How is the audience to accept that when the viewers learned that all Sam had to do was find a rogue reaper and go get Dean? It was, after all, nothing more than a short walk in the park. (Yes, I am being flippant here, but that's the way it was laid out by the show.)

    I do think you are right in this view of what Sam wants, but I still think that Carver is messing with the very core of each brothers' characteristics, as well as the core of the show. Dean is a complicated mixture of ultimate hunter and ultimate caregiver, and Sam is asking him to change. Sam is a mixture of reluctant hunter and empathy for others (not so much Dean, apparently), and I think he needs to make a choice about whether he is able to accept collateral damage for the level of stakes the brothers fight on, or he needs to assume his position as a MoL and get out of the actual hunter role.

    I would also refer back to Gripe #4 in the review and the opening where Tessa states that the message Sam is giving is that the bromance is toxic and dooms both the Winchesters, lose around them, and innocents; that it is not good to put trust in your brother if the circumstances dictate otherwise.

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  99. What Sam wants is not live with the knowledge that once again someone else had to die so that he could live.


    Okay, but this has not been, at least IMO, the focus of Sam's anger. Sam's anger has been directed to everything about Dean. He basically just wrote off Dean as a horrible, selfish, cowardly person. Miles vary but that's how I interpreted both his speeches.



    They've yet to have an honest talk, IMO. If Sam is upset b/c the possession went sideways or b/c Dean had him possessed at all, they should have focused their writing on that. Sam could have spoken about the times he's been possessed and how that makes him feel or how Dean had limits to how he wanted to be saved (see S3's TIOMS) so he should know that Sam has limits as well. Or have Sam talk about his SS memories and how he has to live knowing his body killed innocent people, got Dean vamped, etc., and how he doesn't like feeling that way. Whatever Carver & Co. want Sam to feel, have him freaking say how he feels! It shouldn't be as difficult as they make it!



    Having Sam go on a rant about how Dean causes more harm than good, how family is root of all problems, how Dean is selfish, and how they can't be brothers is not framing Sam's issues. It's Sam indicting everything about Dean and saying he must change everything about himself in order to hang w/Sam. How is Carver going to get them back to a place that makes sense w/o completely altering their characters?!?!

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  100. Actually, its true either way. We saw Sam's reasoning for accepting death - those terms and conditions would've remained the same whether it was the real Death or Head!Death.

    We don't know that the Death Sam saw was just a figment of his imagination, because we know from Bobby's experience that reapers can get inside your head. It is highly likely that the Death we saw was there to "kill" Sam and take his soul. But if it was just Head!Death, then Sam wouldn't have died there and then. He would've stayed in a coma longer until a real reaper came along and they'd have had the same discussion - can you assure me that there'd be no deal, no one gets hurt, yada, yada.

    If Sam had died then, Kevin would still be alive - atleast that's what Sam believes. Their bunker is protected and warded from top to bottom and it'd have been very tough for Metatron or anyone else to come in and kill Kevin - which is probably why Metatron picked a guy on the inside to do it. Dean's choice to save Sam at any cost brought Gadreel into the bunker where he killed Kevin - and given a choice between that and being dead, Sam would choose death. There is more than enough blame to go around - Sam holds Gadreel to be primarily responsible for killing Kevin and maybe even blames Dean a little. Being absolved of that responsibility is not the issue - he sees two possible outcomes, one where he was dead and the current one and he prefers the former.

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  101. Agreed! I don't see a way for the story to be resolved w/o Dean changing a core aspect of his personality. I didn't care for a post-Carver Sam who couldn't be bothered to even research his brother's disappearance, so I know I'm not going to care for a post-Carver Dean that couldn't care less if Sam's life is on the line b/c the mission always comes before family! It's not like the GOH mission was a dire one that needed to be completed right that minute. They stumbled across that mission IIRC. Any hunters could have done it, so why did Sam have to be the one to sacrifice his life for it?

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  102. I agree - if the angel had turned out to be Ezekiel, a good guy who fixed Sam and left without any problems, then Sam probably would not have been this mad. But Gadreel was not a good guy and that was becoming more and more obvious with his each appearance.

    Which brings me back to the point I've been making repeatedly - that Dean wants to save Sam is not the problem. His single-minded focus on saving Sam above every other consideration is the real issue.

    Gadreel was hellbent on keeping the possession a secret from Sam - he'd interrupt Dean every time he tried. He wanted to keep it a secret from everyone else as well. He was extremely worried about the other angels finding him. He was insistent on not being around Cas. And he'd never give Dean a specific timeline - every time Dean brought up the subject, he'd tell him that if he left, Sam would die.

    Normally, Dean should've picked up on the clues. He had really good instincts when it comes to ferreting out someone who has something up his sleeve. Like the time he figured out that the Campbell clan was up to no good. This time, either he didn't pick up on these facts or he ignored them in favor of keeping Sam alive. Either way, the situation they are in is the result of Dean putting Sam's safety above everything else.

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  103. Miles vary, of course, but I choose to believe everything we saw in that episode was Sam arguing with himself...and the fact that Julian Richings said he played Death as HeadDeath. We will just have to agree to disagree on the what if's and maybes.
    My whole problem with this storyline is that it is dishonest and I have a real problem with a hero wanting to die and give up his hero mantel. I also have a problem with these writers messing with the mythical brother bond and any idea they may have of 'maturity' for characters that I think they don't know or give much thought to. I shudder when I think of what may come from this bunch of writers as a conclusion to this soap opera story.

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  104. You are missing the point - it doesn't matter if the whole thing was just in Sam's head. And the whole point of his mental journey was to show that he was ready to die - but he didn't necessarily want to die.


    The only thing that'd change if the whole Death conversation was a figment of Sam's imagination would be that it'd make Dean look foolish. Before letting Gadreel inside Sam, Dean wanted to make sure that the situation was truly desperate, that he was about to lose Sam and that he didn't have time to look for alternate measures. Overhearing Sam's conversation with the Reaper convinced him of it. But if the whole thing wasn't real, then he could've taken the time to look for alternate methods. Sam's reasoning wouldn't have changed.



    Similarly, I don't see Sam's reasons for accepting death as a dishonest storyline. They both have a very personal experience with repeated examples of people clinging on to life beyond their time and how it always leads to bad things happening. "Be ready to go when its your time" - that's something they've been told repeatedly. Sam thinks that he was making the mature decision that Dean talked him out of.

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  105. Your question was about what Sam wants - not what his issues are. Sam is focusing his anger on why all of this happened and not on what happened.
    All the things you mentioned here, both Sam and Dean are aware of them. Which is why Dean felt so bad about the possession even before Gadreel was a full-fledged bad guy. Dean knows that Sam is upset about all the things you gave here - knew it from the get-go that he would be - but did it anyway because he feels that Sam being alive is worth it. And Sam knows that Dean knows it.



    Which is why the issue Sam is focusing on is why Dean thinks its worth it. Sam is indicting Dean's essential character trait - which is to put his brother above everything else. He does want Dean to change that, but doesn't think Dean can unless he stops thinking of them as brothers. The fight is not about what Sam wants, its about what he sees as their problem and I think the show did a good job of framing that.

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  106. If that's what Sam (and Carver) really think this professional only type relationship will result in, them not being brothers and therefore Dean not doing the same thing again, they are living a pipe dream. Dean would do it again because that's who he is. In fact, it will give him even more desire to because it's not like he has anything else to lose. He's already lost Sam as a brother so what's left to stop him.
    If they do it, the other way and Sam stands by his words and doesn't save Dean, that will probably solidify the MoC on him because he will see that his brother truly doesn't love him, not the way he loves Sam, harkening back to season 1 "Devil's Trap" where Azazel pointed that out to Dean with glee.
    As I said before, either way there doesn't seem to be a satisfactory end to this other than totally rewriting the main characters.

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  107. I agree - I think Sam is living a pipe-dream in thinking it'll work. Not so sure about Carver, though.

    Also, "Dean doesn't think his brother truly loves him - not the way he loves Sam" - is something that has been made into an issue quite a few times. We've seen that Sam is the one who always walks out in anger, he is the one who never tried to get Dean out of Purgatory and he is the one who said that he wouldn't go to the same lengths to save Dean. Sam also never gets to make the grand gestures to save his brother - like making a deal or blackmailing Death.

    In fact, that is the character development I've wanted for Sam for a long time and I'm hoping that this current fight is resolved because of it. I'd like it if they showed that Sam is just as screwed up as Dean when the chips are down and despite his words to the contrary, he is willing to cross some lines to save Dean. But that realization can't come from "talking it out".

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  108. I do agree with most of this. I didn't realize how many Sam fans there were or how very, very passionate they were about Sam. I know that Dean fans can be the same.
    One point I would like to add to, I believe Dean did know all along, and finally did acknowledge to Sam and Ed, that the lying had to stop NOW. That is one thing that did come out of this ep., although I'm not sure anyone else saw it that way or acknowledged it.
    I do sincerely hope that the writers do find a suitable solution for this situation that all of us could live with so that we can get back to the show we fell in love with which was more supernatural and less "sad times at b****mont high".

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  109. I think that would be great to see as well, even though Sam adamantly stated that he would not do it. It would be great for Sam, Dean, the fans and the brother bond for that to happen. But, that would also continue this "toxic" relationship that Carver is supposedly trying to nix so I don't hold out much chance of that happening.

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  110. I think you got most of it right.



    Sam does want Dean to change his attitude about putting Sam before everything else. Though I'm not sure how close the innocent bystander vs Sam comparison is. I doubt that even Sam thinks that Dean would ever get to a stage where he'd pick a stranger's life over his brother's, but he might be hoping that at the very least they'd get to a point where if its really the time for Sam to die, Dean would let him go.


    I don't think Sam's current attitude justifies his behavior in early season 8. That was just really bad writing that made his behavior very OOC. Apparently, after Dean disappeared, Sam simply took Crowley at his word that he was dead, made no attempt to figure out the mystery even a little bit, didn't ask himself about Castiel and simply abandoned Kevin - and all this for no specific reason. Apparently he just started driving until he hit the dog. It would have made a little sense if he had atleast tried to figure some of it out but Sam simply deciding to play house makes no sense at all.



    Yes, Carver is messing with their core characteristics - that is the only real way to put their relationship in jeopardy. Either this will end up destroying that relationship or it'd come out of it a little changed and stronger. That is, if its not simply swept under the rug.



    And yes, currently Sam is sending the message that their bromance is toxic and it dooms them both - because right now, he feels that way. He sees the very nature of their bromance as the root cause and the realization the it does more good than bad should, ideally, play a part in reconciliation.

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  111. Why did all of this happen? It happened b/c Dean loves his brother and attempted to prevent him from dying b/c as far as Dean knew, Sam wanted to live. When Dean last spoke to Sam, Sam stopped the trials to live. That's why this all happened.

    Where you and I part is ways is on whether this is a problem. I don't think it is a problem for Sam or Dean to want to save the other's life. I guess Carver has an issue w/it along w/some in the fandom, but I disagree. I'm never going to see that (i.e., desire to save sibling's life) as a problem.

    I will also echo Littlefish and ask what the rest of Sam's statements had to do w/him not wanting Dean to value his life or whatever. If Sam never wants to be saved ever again under any circumstances, all he has to do is say that.

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  112. I agree that Sam has showing repeatedly that when angered, he will strike out blindly (like Dean) and do his best to hurt the offender anyway he can through his words or actions, like walking away which he has done at least once a season with the exception of season 3. He also yells a lot of hurtful things at the people around him, like stating how selfish Dean is and how everything he does is bad which we all know is a lie. That is how they write Sam which is one of the reasons I cannot get behind him, in most things, and when they have him acting like this, it just irritates me.
    In a way, Sam was walking out once again when he agreed to go with Death rather than stay and fight with Dean which ticked me off because at the end of season 8 they were supposed to continue the fight together. Then all the sudden Sam reasons that he's done enough and is willing to leave Dean to the aftermath of the angels falling and everything else, after Dean sacrificed the world, literally, to keep Sam from dying and agreeing to continue fighting together.
    I know very well that Dean does explode on Sam as well and says hurtful things but like Bobby says that was family does. Dean however tends to be more focused to the particular issue at hand rather than blanket false statements designed to destroy a person rather than help them see what they did wrong, like everything you do is bad and you are willing to sacrifice others as long as you don't get hurt. Both statements are boldfaced lies.
    They've both called each other selfish and in some ways they both are but they both also sacrifice a lot for each other and others. I don't see the point in hurting people just to hurt them, especially when you see that they are already in pain.

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  113. Actually, the in-character response from Sam when he feels hurt and betrayed is to walk away. That would've been the knee-jerk reaction. I think that the fact that he decided to stick around despite felling hurt and betrayed and being angry shows that he has put more than usual amount of thought into it.

    As for the other things Sam said to Dean - you have to remember that Sam is angry. I don't think that anger needs to be defended or excused - he has the right to be and I think Dean accepts that as well. The issue is whether Sam made the decision not to be brothers out of anger or did he make it after consideration. I believe it to be the latter.

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  114. If Sam hates his life and hunting so much, there really is no point to him being on a show about hunting, right? Sam is 30-31 years old. If his life is not where he wants it to be, then he needs to quit talking about it and make some changes.

    I don't know if this is Ginger's point, but I'm certainly saying that it makes no sense to follow two leads who hate each other and their lives. That makes for a very depressing, horrible show IMO. This show is about hunting. We're not in the last season so why spend so much time showing how one lead hates hunting or doesn't want to be w/the other lead? It's silly. I hated Dean's depression arcs in S5 and S7, and I hated it w/Sam in S8 and now. The boys are too old to be acting this way.

    I'm not sure why Carver would want to portray Sam as someone who doesn't like being around Dean and doesn't like hunting b/c then it makes no sense for Sam to be on the freaking show. I don't even know why Sam is hunting right now. He doesn't even like hunting. It makes no sense to me.

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  115. lol at the DNR. Yes, it seems that way w/ a touch of suicidal tendency. Aside from the fact that I hate for the hero of the show to be this eager to end his life (it's not a damn soap opera, urgh!), I think he doesn't even need to say that. All he has to do is act as he wish (If you really wanted to die, why did you stop the trials?); he says he sees light in T&E and then wants to die in Sacrifice, he chooses life and Dean right in that scene and then can't wait to die and be at rest the next day, he says yes to get saved the same day and says he's happiest in forever and a few months later he says he wanted to die.... !!!!!

    Forget about Gadreel/Sam switches, Sam himself alone can confuse the hell out of Dean, and us, w/ his crazy swing moods. Also it's not too late, go kill yourself somewhere and be done w/ your crappy life.
    -------------
    Well said, sometimes you can't do anything to fix the broken, and so much regret when it was a valuable thing.

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  116. That's the story from Dean's pov. Dean wanted to save Sam. Sam wanted to live. Dean wanted them to be together. This is the right attitude and therefore he did the right thing which had some very bad consequences.



    However, this simplification also ignores a lot of other things. Dean knew that Sam wouldn't want to live by being possessed - he ignored that in favor of saving Sam. He ignored all the signs that Gadreel was a bad guy because he was so focused on saving Sam. Like I've said many times before - the problem is not that Dean wants to save Sam, the problem is that Dean would do anything to save Sam. Saying that Sam doesn't want Dean to ever try saving him and that he wouldn't either is a gross oversimplification which misrepresents the picture.

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  117. That's b/c . . . too often IMO . . . Sam is written to fit whatever plot the writers are currently doing.

    For instance, his declaration that he was free of any and all guilt in S7 never made any sense to me since Sam had been shown to feel guilt since S1! But it wasn't convenient to have Sam feel guilt in a Dean-centered episode so Sam was written against character for the purposes of that plot.

    And Sam is given so little POV that it's hard to get a handle on him. Many have mentioned that he was positive in T&E and then shattered in Sacrifice. I always assumed the trials took a toll on him both physically and emotionally but who knows? The show didn't bother to explain. So the audience couldn't even follow him on his journey from positive to pessimissitic b/c the middle (i.e., meat of the story) was ignored/neglected just like w/the "Sam doesn't look for Dean" story.

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  118. I never said possession is the actual issue.



    I'll put it simply - "Saving someone on terms unacceptable to the person being saved". That, I believe, is the actual issue between them. The possession, ignoring the warning signs, Kevin dying etc. are the terms that Sam finds unacceptable.



    I think the show does make that point. I also don't think that Dean confused about it. He simply thinks that Sam should figure out a way to make peace with those terms.

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  119. I don't think liking or hating hunting enters the equation anymore. They've moved beyond that. They realize that all they could expect from their lifestyle is more misery and pain and they've made their peace with it. They keep doing it for a combination of reasons like seeing it as the only thing they can do, feeling responsible, trying to do some good and feeling that they can't escape it.

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  120. For me, the ghostfacers were a laugh in the beginning. This episode ruined that for me and forcing it so they appear to be like Sam and Dean is beyond ridiculous. It's taken them 9 years to get to this stage and all of a sudden after one episode Ed and Harry are the same?

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  121. I hear you. I always enjoyed the GF, but now, Carver has ruined that too! Thanks, Carver!

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  122. Agreed! I felt the same way about Dean in S7 when he was in his depressed funk about hunting and the life. I was hoping we'd finally have one season where both brothers were on the same page, but nope . . . gotta keep pushing the same old tired conflict!

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  123. I'll put it simply - "Saving someone on terms unacceptable to the person
    being saved". That, I believe, is the actual issue between them.

    And that would be the possession, right?

    I guess we just keep talking past each other and misunderstanding each other so I'm gonna just say miles vary.

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  124. I don't think they moved beyond that but miles vary.

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  125. You forget something important. When Sam first found out about being possessed, we didn't get to see whether his response was going to be to walk out or not, because Dean left first. When they did get back together, after the hunt Sam was more than willing to walk away and leave things where they were. Dean is the one who wanted to get back together, and Sam only agreed after making the stipulation that they couldn't be brothers, thus distancing himself even while not actually leaving. Therefore, I can't really agree that he chose to stick around after thinking about it. In my mind, there's not much evidence of "thinking" about it at all, just as there is no evidence that he wants to work things out. He is still functioning in the hurt/reaction phase.
    And honestly, I can accept that a lot more than the idea that he really has thought through his words and means what he said. If he means what he said, and has made the decision out of consideration as you claim, then that means he really has chosen to give up on the brotherhood. And if that is the case, there really is no saving it, because what is the point of trying to save something one brother does not see as worth saving. It also means I will loose all respect for him, because in my eyes it will make him the biggest of hypocrites. He too has lied, betrayed, and hurt his brother. And while Dean has reacted strongly to these betrayals, he has never disowned his brother.
    So until I see otherwise, I will continue to believe that Sam is speaking and acting out of hurt and anger and that his heart is still devoted to his brother. And I think I am seeing this played out in the show, because while Sam is saying and acting like he doesn't care about his brother, whenever Dean is in danger he reacts quite strongly, thus revealing his true heart.
    So, I am hoping that we will see the boys sit down and have a true conversation...one without barbed words. I am hoping to see Dean acknowledge the damage his lie and deceit caused, and I am also hoping to see Sam see and acknowledge the heart and love behind his brother's actions, rather than continue to label him as selfish and unworthy of love.

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  126. I think you are missing out on a lot of things regarding Sam's declaration of "giving up on brotherhood".



    I didn't forget about the fact that we didn't get to see Sam walk out this time. I assume that if Dean hadn't walked out then, Sam would have. That is his knee-jerk reaction - he walks away, takes an episode or two to think things over, they work together once again and then Sam decides that they can work through their problems and get things back to normal.



    Except, this time, he decided that they can't work through it. In Sam's hurt/reaction phase he is much more consistently angry - he doesn't have lapses of enjoying his brother's company. I see that as evidence that he has moved past that phase but instead of going to the next usual one, he is in a different place.



    There is also the fact that Sam doesn't quite equate "giving up on brotherhood" to "stop caring about Dean". Sam wants Dean to stop caring about him because he sees that as the problem - I don't think he has any intention of stopping himself from caring about his brother. In fact, I don't think he has even taken that point into consideration. And the way he is trying to accomplish that is through constant freezing with an occasional smattering of barbed words.

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  127. I think you are both forgetting the exchange from Sharp Teeth. Dean refers to the night they “went their separate ways” but Sam corrects him: “You mean the night you split?”

    Couple that with how he said: “Dean's gone, okay?” in First Born or in Road Trip the look on his face when Dean goes on about how he was going to do things alone and it tells me that Sam did not appreciate Dean leaving him. So he wouldn’t have left either.

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  128. Azazel was revealed to have been pulling the strings in his life from girlfriends to teachers. Then there was Ruby.

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  129. He didn't, but Sam still deserved to know an angel took possession of his body. And that's where his choice should have come from, but Dean didn't trust him enough to tell him out of fear he would eject the angel.

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  130. I disagree. The possession is the issue since the issue is Sam didn't want to be saved by any and all means.

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  131. Well, wouldn't you say Dean should have never allowed an angel to possess Sam in the first place b/c he knew Sam wouldn't approve?

    As I said, I believe the fight should be about the possession and not a bunch of other issues the writers randomly raised.

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  132. I see where you are coming from, but I just can't quite agree with that angle. If you are correct, I will be very disappointed, that is for sure. I guess we will just have to watch and see how it plays out.

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  133. He might not appreciate his brother leaving him, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have left himself. It would definitely fit with his pattern. Besides, I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Sam seemed perfectly content to be separated from Dean. They never would have gotten back together if Dean hadn't initiated it...as usual.

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  134. Its quite possible you are correct.

    Sam's primary reaction this time didn't exactly fit the pattern set by the last two times. Both in season 7 and 8, when when Sam felt hurt and betrayed, his reaction seemed much more like he was making a stand - he got all tough-faced and squinty-eyed and looked as if he was about to start throwing punches. This time he looked more exhausted that angry.

    Also, the last two times when they reunited for the case after separation, Sam was the one who stayed uncooperative and aloof. He made it clear then that he'd rather not be working with Dean. This time, however, Dean gave him a lot of opportunities to walk away and Sam didn't take them.

    These things put together with the rest make for a strong argument that Sam probably would not have walked away that night.

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  135. That's not the same thing as having no 'control'. In fact, Sam and Dean's whole storyline for the first five seasons was subverting prophecy and taking control of their own destiny. And they have been in control of their own life since then. Saying that it was something that Sam never really had still doesn't make any sense.

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  136. I think Sam wouldn’t have been so hard on him about it if he knew he was gonna do the same thing all along.

    In Sharp Teeth, Sam says: “I'll send you that postcard” which is a direct reference to what Dean had said earlier. It reminded Dean how Dean himself had acted throughout the case. He had been trying to get Sam to leave. So Dean changes his mind and Sam agrees to get back together even though there wasn’t a reconciliation like some previous times, proving that Sam wasn’t perfectly content to be separated.

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  137. The Ghostfacers are alright I just dislike overly anvilicious episodes .I would rather have actual scenes written esp for Sam who has had a lack of explorative scenes concerning the possession than a get out way of doing it by using other characters to represent the brothers situation.

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  138. It was a season filler that's all. A 22-23 episode season is way too long for them to just approach Cas' war, and apparently the main story here isn't even the angel's mess, it's Sam and Dean's drama.... I wish it weren't cause their constant relationship discussions got old and boring since season 7. i mean, what about Abbadon and Crowley ? That's such a cool storyline !

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  139. I really couldn't take the scene in the diner seriously. My thought was, is this real?

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  140. It was pretty bad, wasn't it?

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  141. Which is why I said your POV was the same as Dean's POV. Dean doesn't see it as a problem either. Sam does. They are at an impasse which cannot be resolved by talking it out.



    As for Sam - he does feel the pull to save Dean. We've seen that a few times in past few episodes. And not researching his disappearance was just crappy writing that was never corrected. But even if that wasn't the case, both of them were able to get past it with their relationship intact - ergo, not the reason for the death of brotherhood.


    Finally, Carver's concept of maturity doesn't seem all that warped. If Dean stops losing all perspective and making reckless decisions everytime Sam is at risk, that would be a sign of maturity. If Sam doesn't simply walk out on their partnership every time something pisses him off or hurts him, that would be a sign of maturity too. But, I guess, maturity is not what one wants on a TV show - it doesn't bode well for emotional drama.

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  142. I'm so tired of Carver the Butcher destruction of this show.

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  143. Maturity isn't interesting to watch, but I would also argue that Dean "learned this lesson" FOUR years ago! Carver is treading on old ground b/c he is not that creative or imaginative I guess.

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  144. He did learn the lesson four years ago when he let Sam jump into the cage. The lesson was also reinforced with Death's lecture about maintaining the natural order. But, somewhere in between then and now, he unlearned the lesson.

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  145. He didn't "unlearn" the lesson. Carver just came along and uprooted the show but miles will vary.

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  146. Not just Carver - the lesson never seemed to really stick.

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  147. If it had stuck, we wouldn't be retreading old ground.

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  148. Yes, we would if that's what the WRITERS wanted.

    The lesson stuck. Carver "unstuck" it b/c he has ZERO imagination and doesn't know what to do w/the show. It doesn't feel real or organic b/c it's a forced situation and conflict!

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  149. And the evidence of lesson "sticking" would be...

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  150. Dean learned the lesson about letting go of Sam in Swan Song, as seen when he let Sam choose to stay in the fight or go back to Amelia and when Sam chose to stop the trials. IMO, that is not the question being addressed this season.
    Rather, Sam thinks his life is only worth some big self-sacrifice -- the one for the good of many. Dean thinks that a big self-sacrifice is not the way to go., that they can fight on their terms and he is willing to accept that one or the other may get killed in the process. He said that in Sacrifice when he was arguing for Sam to give up the trials and said that they had enough knowledge and tools to fight the fight without a big self-sacrifice. That's the point of contention between the two of them, and when Dean made the deal with Gad, there was no other innocents at risk. Of course, he was nervous about the deal he made, but it was because Sam's life was at risk in the deal, not Dean's. That is why he told Cas he was willing to kill Sam in the process of killing Gad, if he could not expel Cas.
    Neither Dean nor Sam would choose to let an innocent be killed just to save the other.

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  151. Everything from S5 until S8 when Carver decided to regress the characters and re-do stories that have already been done.

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  152. Insufficient detail. Try again.

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  153. A few problems with that: "Letting Sam go" to be happy and live a normal life is not something Dean ever had a problem with. He has been okay with that since the Pilot. "Letting Sam go" when he is dead or dying is not what he is okay with and letting that happen was the lesson of season 5. The evidence of having learned that lesson would've been if he didn't beg desperately for Sam to stop the trials.



    As for the question of sacrifice - it was worth it. They would've closed the gates of hell and gotten rid of all the demons on earth in one fell swoop. They'd have saved hundreds of innocent people being possessed. For someone who dedicated their lives to fighting the demons, this opportunity was the holy grail. No matter what knowledge and tools they have now, even if they found a way to kill every demon they encounter while saving the host, they still wouldn't be able to accomplish as much in their lifetimes. If it had been anyone else about to sacrifice their lives for this purpose, Dean would've seen that the benefits far outweighed the costs and he'd have let them finish it. If the person doing the trials had been Dean, he wouldn't have stopped (and Sam probably wouldn't have tried to make him stop). But, since it was the one person Dean valued above everything else, the trials had to stop. You could say that since Dean chose to convince Sam not to complete the trials, he is letting hundreds of innocents die all over the world for Sam's sake.



    As for his "willingness" to kill Sam when Gadreel was possessing him, he makes it clear that he is only willing because he'd assumed they wouldn't be able to save Sam - that Sam would be burned out and dead because of the possession. Dean jumped at the first chance he had to get Gadreel out as opposed to kill him, even if that chance meant letting Crowley walk and letting Gadreel walk.

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  154. Yep, I only hope they reunite Ed and Harry at some point

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  155. Yeah...I thought it was pretty messed up to bring back the GF only to ruin their relationship. I liked the Ghostfacers, and they didn't need to be brought into Sam and Dean's unnecessary melodrama!

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  156. If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

    Ginger gave some examples above, but you disagreed w/them. You seem to like what Carver is doing w/the show and characters. I don't. You'll never understand my position. I'll never understand yours.

    Everything Carver's done is a retread TO ME. Miles vary.

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  157. FYI, I see the statement "If you don't get it, you just don't get it." as a sign of an unclear position.

    As I've already said above, I agree with you when you say that Carver is retreading old ground.

    If Dean had stuck with his lesson of season 5, then Carver wouldn't have any grounds to retread. Dean would've let Sam close the gates of hell and that would have been that. If Carver had done it by simply "unsticking" the lesson, then Dean's actions in season 8 finale and in the beginning of season 9 would've come off as unnatural. The fact that Carver can write a storyline where they are retreading old ground without making Dean seem out-of-character is evidence that the lesson did not stick.


    As for your position - I do understand it. You regard Dean's attitude as the correct one and wish that the show would be consistent with it. You see Sam's attitude as the unjustified one and you don't like that the writers seem to be endorsing it. Your ideal resolution of this fight would be Sam apologizing to Dean for being so angry, saying that he understands and accepts Dean's motivations and that he accepts that Dean essentially made the right choice albeit one with some very unfortunate consequences. And then they'd decide to fix those consequences together. That is your position as I understand it - I just don't agree with it.



    As for my own position, I can't say I like or dislike what Carver is doing with characters because what he is doing is not clear yet. That will become clear only by the way this situation is resolved and I'm withholding judgment till then. All I can say right now is that the progression of story and the character development so far makes sense.

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  158. "Whether you word ........ killed to do so. "

    "Begging Sam to stop the trials certainly is not proof that Dean has not learned his lesson."

    Not saving Sam was the lesson Dean was supposed to learn in Season 5. Their plan to stop the apocalypse was to have Sam say yes to Lucifer and jump into the cage and it was a plan that Sam said he wouldn't go through without Dean's approval. All Dean had to do to save Sam then was to say no - and he didn't. The fact that he didn't accept Sam's sacrifice this time around is proof that the lesson did not stick.

    "To let Sam continue the trials would have been Dean endorsing a blood
    sacrifice for the many and it would have equated to fratricide. That is a line Dean is not willing to cross for the sake of the mission, and it has always been his mission to kill ‘as many SOB’s as he can.’"

    If that's the case then Dean had already crossed the line and was already guilty of fratricide back in Season 5. However, the fact is, accepting Sam's choice to sacrifice himself is not the same as endorsing it and it certainly is a far cry from fratricide.

    "Besides, in assigning that problem to Dean, you are ignoring that it
    was Sam’s choice to quit the trials, which he did when he accepted
    Dean’s hope and unconditional love, and he stated the specific ways that
    the two of them could continue to fight with a good chance of winning."

    I'm assigning that problem to Dean because it is part of Dean's problem. Sam's reasons for stopping the trials would be part of Sam's problems which don't seem to be the current focus of the show. As for Dean's plan for continuing the fight - it doesn't seem to be doing them much good right now.

    "I also disagree that the sacrifice would have been worth it. Besides
    being fratricide, we now know that all the evil souls who deserve to go
    to Hell would have been roaming around on Earth, just as the angels are
    now. That fact cannot be ignored."

    Besides not being fratricide, it can also be easily ignored because its not a fact. There is no clear indication that all evil souls who deserve to go to hell actually do get there. In fact, we know of an evil soul being admitted to heaven because he was "devout". The dynamics of afterlife are also not clear. Further, the spell to close hell was not equivalent to the spell to close heaven. The idea with hell was to close the gates in such a way that all demons get sucked in and no one would be able to get out. The spell with heaven is that everyone one is expelled and no one can get in (though Metatron seems to be able to come and go as he pleases). Finally, even if evil souls were stuck on earth, dealing with the fraction that could break through the veil to kill humans would still have been easier than dealing with all the demons. Anyway you slice it, if saving a lot of people was your goal, the sacrifice would've been worth it.

    "You are right that Dean ........ has acted in the past."

    That's my point again - if the lesson of season 5 had stuck, Dean wouldn't be behaving the same way he did in past.




    "I completely disagree with you on the issue being dealt with this season, as I have already stated and you have discounted."


    If I've discounted it before then there is no need for me to discount it again.

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  159. Well, you can see it anyway you want. I'm not going to argue w/you about that.

    I think we're just talking past each other at this point. You say if Dean had stuck to the lesson then Carver wouldn't have needed to retread old ground. I come from the position that Dean would have stuck to the lesson if Carver wasn't so uncreative and unimaginative in his storytelling. At the end of the day, "Dean" only does what Carver wants so Carver, clearly, wanted to retell this story. That's how I see it. I know miles vary.

    You do not understand my position at all. Fundamentally, I have no problem w/Dean's attitude of wanting to save his brother. I don't have a problem w/that. Before Carver, Sam was the same way, and that was fine w/me. I also don't have a problem w/Sam having limits to how he wants to be saved. I understand why Sam is angry and upset. I never said he couldn't be angry w/Dean or that he needed to apologize to Dean for being upset.

    My problem was with the writing of Sam's speeches. I thought they veered far off track and way too much time was spent on condemning everything about Dean and muddying the issues than discussing the actual issue. I don't think the show has spent much time on Sam's POV re: the actual possession, but that seems to be the way they wanted to play it. The point seems to be to drive Dean into a depression and further the MOC story.

    I don't care for the way this story is playing out. I don't think Sam should have a problem w/Dean wanting to save him; he can, however, have a problem w/the way Dean saved him. That's where we disagree. You seem to like Carver's vision of the show where the brothers don't go all our for each other or act w/in reason when it comes to saving each other. I liked them going all crazy for each other and going to extremes. It's a tv show about people fighting supernatural creatures so I see no reason it must be the most "healthy," etc.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion.

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  160. I don't know how I can be talking past you when I address the points you make.



    I'm not saying that Carver needed to retread old grounds. However, I also don't see it as being uncreative and unimaginative. The brothers fighting has become a staple for every season and while the issues they are fighting over here have been the cause of discord before, the context is different enough to make it different from before.



    What I am saying, however, is that if the lesson had stuck - in seasons 6, 7 or 8 - before Carver came along, then we'd have seen evidence of it and if Carver had simply undid the lesson for the sake of retelling, then Dean's actions in the season 8 finale would've come off as unnatural and out-of-character.





    My take on your position seems pretty spot-on as well. You don't see Dean's position of saving Sam at all costs as something wrong. You don't want Sam to see it as something wrong. You don't want the show to present it as something wrong. You want Sam to be angry about the possession but not be angry about the motivations behind it. And you don't like that the show is making that into the issue.



    However, the problem with that is, if the show makes the problem all about how Dean chose to save Sam in this particular instance and not about the fact that he would choose to save Sam by any means necessary, then nothing about their relationship would change. Sam would eventually get over it, rationalizing it as another hard choice Dean made in his long career of keeping Sam safe, their relationship would go back to the way it was and they'd have another fight in season 10.


    Also, as I've said before, I don't like or dislike Carver's vision because I'm not sure what it is. And you don't know it either - that would become clear only when this fight is resolved. What I do know is that your vision - the one where Sam is angry about only the possession, which gets resolved once he decides to forgive Dean - is the one we have seen quite a few times before and the one that I don't like. I'll make my judgment about Carver's vision once it comes to fruition.


    As for my personal preferences, I like the idea of Winchesters going to insane lengths for each-other, but I want that relationship to be reciprocal. So far, we've only seen Dean act in that manner. I think Sam realizing how much his brother means to him and crossing some lines to save him represents some long-overdue character development for him. However, that realization can't happen unless "crossing lines to save your brother" is made into an issue. And since they are making it into an issue, that is the change I'm hoping for in their relationship.

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  161. Ahhhh....we may actually agree then. I'd love to see Sam cross the lines to save Dean. From what I hear, that was the story Sera planned for him in S8, but then Carver came along and ruined it. Sam should have been allowed to save Dean from Purgatory, but apparently, looking for a missing relative is immature in Carver's eyes . . . okay . . . that will never make sense to me.



    As far as us talking past each other, that's my opinion of this conversation we've been having. And no matter how Carver's story ends, I can see w/certainty, the ride to get there has not been enjoyable or entertaining to me.

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  162. Sera had two seasons to implement the "Sam saves Dean" storyline. If it didn't happen them I doubt if it would've happened in season 8. So, I don't think Carver could ruin something that wasn't there to begin with.

    "Saving a relative by crossing lines" has always been presented as immature and selfish by the show. The person who does it has always bee presented as self-centered and the action as one without any regard for consequences. And something like that always leads to something bad. That was true when Mary saved John, when John saved Dean, when Dean made the deal for Sam or whenever they encounter a case where a person just isn't able to let a lost loved one go. That has always been one of the messages of the show - so blaming Carver and his vision for it doesn't work. That I want Sam to be as selfish and immature as Dean doesn't mean that I wouldn't see his actions as contrary to the show's message.

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  163. Yeah. . . so I'm not sure what you're interested in seeing but it doesn't matter b/c I'm not you. Hope you get whatever it is you want out of the show.

    S7 was the perfect setup, IMO, for Sam to save Dean from Purgatory, and I believe that's where the story was going until Carver come along and ruined everything.

    I understand you either like Carver or are giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't like anything he's done and think he's been terrible for the show. It seems we're polar opposites who will never meet in the middle. As I said a long time ago. we can just agree to disagree and call it a day.

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