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Supernatural 9.12 "Sharp Teeth" Review: Cross Purposes

29 Jan 2014

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    This week’s episode of Supernatural, “Sharp Teeth,” was written by Adam Glass and directed by John F Showalter and featured the return of Garth (DJ Qualls). Garth, of course, has been in the wind since abandoning Kevin on his houseboat for a hunt in Portland. The episode presented an interesting standalone case that was a plausible reason for the brothers to come back together and to take time off from their current pursuit of Gadreel.

    As with all Garth episodes, there’s a certain amount of humor in this episode. There’s a fun shout out to Sleepy Hollow when Sam (Jared Padalecki) describes Garth as Ichabod Crane. Orlando Jones who co-stars on Sleepy Hollow has become a dedicated live tweeter of Supernatural, so it was fun to see that obliquely acknowledged. Having the werewolves sit around singing “Bringing in the Sheaves” (wheat sheaves used to make flour, bread, etc) was ironically funny just before they sit down to a crazy lunch at which everyone, except Dean (Jensen Ackles), has a plate piled full of raw meat.

    The mythology of the episode was interesting. Having the werewolves following two paths, with the “bad” ones secretly member of the Maw of Fenris. It was Ragnorak etched into the bullet on the sheriff that tips them off, and I loved that Dean in typical Dean fashion recognizes the word from Norse mythology because of its link to Thor and Loki – no doubt through the movie and comics. However, we have already met Odin in “Hammer of the Gods,” and he even mentioned the myth, saying that he would die when he was eaten by Fenris.

    Overall, however, I found this episode fell short on a number of levels. Firstly, the writers seem to have completely re-written the rule book on werewolves. I expect that the assumption is that once werewolves aren’t first generation, they gain more control over how and when they turn. The reference to the “bitten” may be a reference to the season eight episode “Bitten” in which we learn that werewolves who are closely descended from an Alpha can control when they turn. There is still the point that Garth was bitten – as was Reverend Jim (Tom Butler), so they should have no control over when they turn – forced to turn during the full moon and they should have no control over their actions. In addition, whether it was lazy special effects or lazy story-telling, the werewolves in this episode were completely different looking as well as acting than the werewolves we learned about in season two’s “Heart.” Even the teeth being worn by the actors looked ridiculous. The actors looked like they were wearing badly fitting fangs from a costume shop. In addition to their plastic fangs, they had contact lenses and long finger nails. Not terribly scary.

    It was nice to see the brothers working together and figuring out that the Sheriff was behind the deer killing. Why exactly was the werewolf going to shoot the brothers instead of using his super strength to kill them? Possibly the gun was a safer way to take care of two hunters, but then why let his fingernails and teeth show?

    There were some nice moments between Dean and Reverend Jim. Ackles really sells it as he listens to Reverend Jim tell the story about his wife being killed by a hunter. He tells Dean that “the road to revenge is a dark and lonely one that you never get off.” He goes on to say “and that hole in your stomach? You never fill it. Ever.” He gives up seeking revenge for his daughter, for family. Dean really does get it. It could be John’s story after all, in addition to Dean’s own.

    Qualls and Ackles are both outstanding in the scene in which Dean tells Garth about Kevin’s (Osric Chau) death. Garth admits that he was wrong to have stayed away. At the end of the episode they knock it out of the park again as Garth suggests he might come back to hunt with Dean. Dean tries to absolve him of any guilt for Kevin, insisting it’s all on him. He also pushes Garth away, clearly in an attempt to keep him as safe as possible. He tells him to hold onto the happiness that he can. The scene is nicely shot with a cross stitch of “Home Sweet Home” prominently displayed on the wall behind Dean. Garth has also acted as a catalyst to bring the brothers back together again before and has provided Dean (Jensen Ackles) with some self awareness from time to time.

    Joy (Eve Gordon), the evil step-mother, was hardly a happy (joyful) person. She, of course, is the one ruled by revenge. At least her plan to shoot Garth and Bess (Sarah Smyth) and blame Sam and Dean does require her to have a gun. However, once she and Dean are both disarmed, why does she choose to go for her gun rather than simply leap on Dean? Admittedly, many of my quibbles are small ones that if they appeared in an episode alone would hardly be worthy of comment, but the cumulative effect in this episode was too much to ignore them.

    I was also disappointed by the interaction between the brothers in this episode. Dean really doesn’t want more information on the leftover Gadreel grace in Sam and how Cas (Misha Collins) removed it? He simply makes a lame comment that likens it to Sam having had an abortion? And Sam’s more pissed off that Dean was working with Crowley? He’s less curious about the mark of Cain? There’s no evidence in the show that Sam does any investigating or is concerned about the effects of the mark as it is never mentioned again.

    Both are hunting for Gadreel – or has Dean’s focus turned entirely to Abaddon (Alaina Huffman) for some reason? If they are both hunting Gadreel, it was just a matter of time before they ran into each other. Dean does try to push Sam away several times, lying to him about the surveillance footage at the hospital. It was a nice touch when Sam catches Dean and calls him on it - warning him not to play anymore games while they look for Garth. For his own part, Sam is happy to split from Dean after finding Garth, even though he does tell him to be careful when Dean is investigating the church on his own.
Butler in "Scarecrow"

    Perhaps the most disappointing scene in the entire episode was the final scene. Once again, it seems we’ve had the brothers apart for a pointless ramping up of the drama. It worked in “Scarecrow.” The brothers being apart gave them a new appreciation for what they meant to each other. It was clear that they got into trouble on their own and they were stronger together. We get none of that in this episode. Dean has seen the pack work as a family unit and embrace Garth, so it seems a natural fit for him to try to bring his own family back together and Sam completely rejects this. If Reverend Jim – Butler – looked familiar, it’s because he was in “Scarecrow” as Harley Jorgeson, the one who is willing to sacrifice his own niece – a nice twist in casting as in this episode he rejects sacrificing his family to the Norse god in that episode.
A much more satisfying reunion in "Scarecrow"

    The show is built around the “family business.” Sam concedes that working together makes the job suck less. But while he is willing to work with Dean, he is unwilling to be brothers any longer. While it was nice to see Dean try to apologize to Sam and for both of them to recognize that there is something very broken in their relationship, neither of them really fully articulated anything, therefore, solving nothing. Sam says they don’t see things the same way anymore, yet he never says what exactly he’s trying to accomplish, nor does he really put Dean on the spot for what he was trying to accomplish. They are both clearly working at cross purposes over the events in the past. Perhaps Dean, like myself, understood Sam to agree to abandoning shutting the gates of Hell and choosing to live. I didn’t see that Dean tricked Sam at that point, regardless of what transpired later.
A light moment on set during "Scarecrow"

    Frankly, Sam’s declaration that everything that ever went wrong between them was because they are family seemed to fly in the face of what has been at the core of the show since the beginning. I actually felt that even Padalecki and Ackles are tired of the incessant splitting up and getting back together with no growth to the characters. Dean screws up and tries to apologize – badly. Sam is pissed at Dean, but teams up again anyway. Padalecki does a great job conveying Sam's disdain for his brother. In the end, I really didn’t see why Sam wanted to go back to hunting with Dean. He says he can’t trust him and really seems to hate him. There was equally little motivation on Dean’s part – what happened to wanting to keep everyone he cared about at arm’s length? And is Dean’s primary goal to kill Gadreel or Abaddon? Sam’s goal is clearly to go after Gadreel. Shouldn’t they at least try to determine each other’s agenda before they drive off in the Impala – leaving Sam’s newly acquired 1972 Dodge Dart shamelessly abandoned ? And one final glaring question – where was Cas?

    What did you think of the episode? Did you like this new brand of werewolf? Were you happy to have Garth back? What do you think it's going to take to get the brothers back on the same page? Let me know your thoughts in the comments below. One final word about those comments. I’m always happy to see people engaging with an episode in the comments and expressing their own opinion as I have done in my review. I will try to respond to everyone’s comments, but if I’ve already answered a point in a comment elsewhere, I may not respond to yours. In addition, if I don’t agree with your comment and we are clearly at an impasse, I also won’t respond. I do read all of the comments and respond when I feel I can add to the discussion. Thanks for reading and adding to the discussion.

274 comments:

  1. If you are within four generations of pureblood, you are less feral and have more control, as well being able to change before, during and after the lunar cycle. Gotta assume that Reverend Jim and Garth, were infected within four generations.


    Also, werewolves look exactly same as they always have. That's been the look of them since they were introduced in season 2.


    The way I see it Sam meant Dean putting family in the way of getting the job has lead to some bad stuff happening, Sam is guilty of it too, had he killed Azazel while he was possessing John, a lot less bad crap would have went down.

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  2. Good review thanks, though this episode sucked.

    I don't even want to think about their case here, the whole idea of stepmother and a packing werewolves who eat raw meat and pie was really stupid.

    My problem is how and when the concept of 'family' became a negative issue in this show. This show IS about family and brothers, WTH! I thought the introduction of this supernatural family was going to help the brothers to see the value in their relation, but alas. This talk about Sam's distrust and all should have been at the end of Road Trip, they're supposed to cool down and think about the importance of their brotherhood and make up, not this childish 'we work if we're not family anymore'!!!!

    And you're right, what happened to Dean's 'I'm poison to others', or why is Sam hunting anyway? Apparently (S8) Sam isn't that eager for this hunting life, he should now just be searching for Gadreel, kill him and be done w/ the job, but now he's accepting Dean's presence just for the hunt ... I'm getting head spin here.

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  3. Dean crossed a line, and still doesn't understand why Sam is pissed. Saying "we're family" and hunting monsters isn't going to fix things anymore, Dean needs to realize that.


    They are destroying the relationship in order to build it back up into something more stronger and mature.

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  4. This ep is one of my least favorites from the season, coming in ahead of the Oz Charlie ep, only because I like Garth much better than Charlie. Anyway I agree with everything you have said. The teeth were laughable.

    I expect a few eps to be dogs, and this has been a very good season over all, so am not going off into a corner to cry. ;)

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  5. First of all Sam's agreement to work with Dean as hunters but not as brothers isnt childish it is however the start of rebuilding what is actually wrong with the relationship. They ARE family but that cant be used as excuse and being brothers is about more than just blood its something that needs to be worked on which is what Sam was deffinatly hinting at.
    Also why wouldnt they work together? They have always made a good pair when it comes to actual HUNTING, where they fall down is with the family stuff. They still love each other and will watch each others backs even though things are strained between them on a more personal level.
    As for Sam still hunting he has a goal, Gadreel. He may also be thinking about Dean's new screw up (the Mark) and may want to keep Dean close, just because he didnt react much in the episode doesnt mean he wont go away and research it and react further down the line. Not to mention every time Sam has tried to get out of the game something always pulls/pushes him back in again (Dean's mark of Cain now hangs over them and Sam isnt stupid enough to to think it wont be just another disaster on the horizon) so why bother trying to get out when it usually ends in heartache.
    As for Dean while he may pretend he doesnt need anyone its clear he really does, he wouldnt strive so hard to keep Sam's pulse going if he didnt.
    I'm sorry but they should not have just had that discussion at the end of Road Trip and gotten over it by now, isnt that why they keep ending up in this situation time after time? This time Carver seems to be aiming to deal with the route of the problem on both sides not just using the excuse 'we're family' or 'theirs nothing I wouldnt do for you' or 'I cant live with you dead' it just doesnt cut it any more. They need to slowly rebuild not just brush it under the carpet.

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  6. Michelle Curtis Auch29 January 2014 at 12:43

    I agree. I got the impression that Sam won't take "We're family" anymore. Dean has a habit of just stepping over the mess and moving on without ever really dealing with it. Sam's comment about working or being brothers is his way of telling Dean that. He can't keep dodging the issue that their relationship needs work. Dean has never truly let Sam be the man he has become. He still sees him as his kid brother, or even like a son, that needs his care.
    I believe that Sam is concerned about the mark, but Garth was the main focus at the time. I agree that we'll see him looking into it, for sure.

    Everyone says this is the same old, same old. The brothers have a fight, split up, make up, and are back together again and that it shows no growth. I disagree. Sam is finally standing up for himself. Telling Dean "Listen, we need to work on this! No more ignoring the elephant in the room." This is growth and hopefully for the better. And a broken relationship isn't fixed in one conversation or even one day. I expect we'll see this play out over the remainder of the season.
    Lastly, regarding Gadreel vs Abaddon. I think the reason Dean goes after Abaddon is because he's getting nowhere in his search for Gadreel. Dean is a man of action and would rather be hunting something than spinning his wheels looking fruitlessly for Gadreel. And since he received the mark, he's sort of gone through a door that can't be retreated out of. He's stuck on this Abaddon path now. Not to say that if a lead presents itself on Gadreel, he wouldn't go after it with a vengeance!

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  7. Well, what I got from that enlightening dialogue was that Dean admits he crossed the line and feels terribly sorry for it, and again admits there's sth broken, but in Supernatural fashion speech he says 'we're family', means no matter how screwed-up we are, we have each other and we're stronger together, and we'll work things through, pretty much the same thing he said in The End, and personally I don't see what's wrong w/ it; they're brothers, they make mistakes, they fights,... but at the end they forgive and should learn from their mistakes and make up as brothers, after all it's not like they can reverse time. But what Sam said here was that the source of all their troubles was them being family and it's a kick to the very thing that was valued and admired through all the series.

    I hope so, but I really have no such hope. lol

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  8. I left the episode thinking that all of the potential and possibilities brought up in First Born has been swept off the table for the sake of faux angst and brother hand wringing, for the brothers to be mad, angst in the middle of the season, and then the kiss and make up.
    The confusing werewolf lore, throwing out the premise that the love of family overcomes all of life's chaos, Sam disowning his brother, Dean...I don't know what Dean is doing...he is poison to everyone around him, but wants to get back with Sam after a two week split and drag him through the muck with him again...or let Sam drag him through the muck with him...I am not clear on that...Honestly, I cannot think of one good reason why this script was conceived or one good reason why it was accepted. All I saw was a huge potful of opportunity spilled on the writers' floor.

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  9. Okay, so I know I will probably get flamed for this, but I have never found myself caring for the boys less than I do now. After eight full seasons and all the shit they've been through, it's like they don't even know each other at all! At the end of the episode, I KNEW Dean was going to get out of the car and try to fix things, because isn't that the way it ALWAYS goes? If they wanted to shake things up, they could have Sam trying to work to fix the relationship for once, instead of appearing more than willing to just let it go (as usual).
    Okay, so Dean messed up...big. It's not like Sam hasn't made some colossal mistakes himself, but that never seems to stop him from casting stones. Instead of seeing his brothers pain and regret, he is content to 'kick him while he's down.' When he made the comment about Dean bailing on him I nearly choked. How many times has Dean walked out on Sam? How many times has Sam walked out on Dean? I mean...really? And then taking what happened at the church and turning it into an accusation against Dean? Saying they can't be brothers? It's almost like he is saying that he wants Dean to just stop caring about him...something HE seems to have managed just fine.
    In the end, I felt like I was watching the end to Southern Comfort all over again. The boy's relationship is suffering, Dean tries to make it right, Sam gets on his high horse and lectures him, basically saying they can hunt together, but only on HIS terms, and Dean (looking like a kicked puppy) pathetically agrees. It's sickening.
    I have kept watching this show in the vain hope that they will eventually get back to the equality between characters, but it seems the writers are intent on painting Sam as the long-suffering, Ill-used brother and Dean as the big, bad wolf.

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  10. If you look at Madison, she looks very different - but then maybe Emmanuel Vaugier just sold it that much better. To me the teeth and eyes were better done - scarier.

    I agree that a lot of bad things have been done in the name of family - but would you really have no problem killing or letting a family member die if you could avoid or stop it? And in the Supernatural universe that we've come to know, family is the core. What really bothered me about the scene, however, was that the core problem is one of communication - they still aren't really talking, telling each other what their goals are. They are discussing how their personal goals conflict or even how they intend to achieve them.

    I get that they changed the parameters for werewolves in Bitten - an episode I personally really liked. I think they needed to point out that Jim and Garth fell into the new parameters - and I think it would be have been interesting to have the pack respond to the bitten who are out of control - doesn't help them stay quietly in the background after all. Really, all the werewolf lore is in the fore of my mind due to the new show Bitten - which does the lore very well - which it should as it is based on a series of novels...

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  11. I agree with much of what you said. Adam Glass' writing is always hit or miss with me. I think they need more female writers on this show. I think they write (or have in the past at least) better dialogue for Sam and Dean when they are supposed to be having heartfelt conversations to try and remedy the situation they are currently in. Disappointing episode for me overall.

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  12. I love you last paragraph. That is what I saw in that last speech also. To me, Sam wasn't saying he didn't want to be brothers, he was saying they need to make choices for the grater good. Sam should have killed Azazel, John should not have made that deal, Dean should not have made that deal, Sam should not have started drinking demon blood to get revenge on Lilith.... And they should have closed the gates of Hell.

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  13. Agreed - but then why not push Dean? Clearly, "we're family" means something different to each of them. They never clarify that or deal with it - either of them. Personally, after nine years, I don't think it can be fixed - but that's not a popular position... They've simply gone to this well too often for my tastes.

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  14. That surprised me too. I expected him to say it was a burn or something.

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  15. Agreed - except that I quite liked the Oz ep (LOL) - and I much prefer Charlie to Garth. Qualls is a very uneven actor to me - he can nail the emotional scenes but his comedy is too over the top for me and his delivery of some of the lines comes off flat to me. That said, having met him, he is one of the nicest actors you will ever meet.

    I'm not crying in a corner either. I think this ep suffered from coming after such a strong episode too.

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  16. Welcome! I was pretty shocked too! That has to be progress, right? At least he was honest about that. Sam should be more concerned going forward - after all, in this scenario, he's Abel and that brotherly relationship didn't end well...

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  17. Ha! That's _exactly_ what I expected him to say!

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  18. I agree. This runaway scenario has been played out way too many times and is extremely long in the tooth for me. My initial reaction is always, "here we go again, he (insert Dean/Sam) is running away -- yet again". It seems to be the fall-to ending. Speaking of which, I didn't like the ending either. Ok, fine this time they tried to change up by not allowing them to make-up and walk the path of brotherhood together, not that I agree mind you, but to flat out say, "as far as brothers …… " and leave it hanging like that? No, that's just wrong. As you said, the one thing, the core of this entire show, is the family aspect. You don't play with that and the characters should never have forgotten that. Just doesn't make sense. Also, that line keeps you hanging. Not even a drop of hope - just not Supernaturalesque at all. Very disappointing. Seemed like they ran out of dialogue because this scenario was played out so many times that they just hoped the week interval between shows would cover it up. The show also felt hurried and rushed. You could almost FEEL that it was a filler episode and everything was just thrown together to get through the hour. A part of me could picture the writers halfheartedly throwing out ideas quickly and latching on to them so they could hurry out for dinner. Case in point, as you also pointed out, when Dean shows Sam the mark of Caine and it's almost as if he's showing him a new pair of sock! No real curiosity, no questions, no -- NOTHING. This is Sam, the one who researches why the sky is blue and yet he asks nothing?! So out of character, so wrong. Supernatural is never LOUSY, but they do have their lesser episodes and this one seemed lesser than most. A real let down especially after last weeks. What a glaring difference! Even the expected humor with Garth for the most part was flat and heavy. Only thing I saw that was exceptional was the acting by both Sam/Dean - Jared/Jensen.

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  19. Agreed! I was very disappointed by the lack of concrete dialogue. It's possible they will have a deeper discussion in the next episode, but as it looks to be a somewhat "silly" case, I'm not hopeful...

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  20. You are pretty kind to a pretty weak episode, though I do appreciate the effort you make to find positives to point out--reviews that trash a show can be very entertaining to read, but it's nice to see someone look for and note positive elements, or ones that suggest some degree of thought and intention, like your observation of the "Home Sweet Home" motto, which I missed, or your comments on how this episode revisits elements of earlier episodes (even in casting!).
    That said, I did not find this a strong episode, for many of the reasons you note, among others. I was especially bothered by the whole good werewolf/bad werewolf dichotomy, not because there's anything inherently problematic about that idea (or even because we've had the good monster/bad monster dichotomy more than once before), but because it was handled so ... well, lamely. First of all, an evil stepmother? Really? Isn't that a bit on the nose? What made it way worse for me, anyway, though, was that it was pretty much impossible to take the "bad" werewolf point of view seriously. In the past, the show has done a good job of adressing how the monster might have a valid point of view, an opportunity that was squandered here. I'm not sure whether to blame the scenery-chewing performance, the dialogue, or a combination of both, but the Maw of Fenris stuff was not presented to us in a way that made it even remotely possible to see it as anything other than a paper-thin mask for wickedness. That is, to me, just not interesting any more. It would have been far more effective to play Joy as a genuine character with real emotions, rather than as a leering villain.
    Lots of other stuff bugged me, but you cover most of it, so I won't belabor the point, but, nutshell: at the end, I felt like this episode was unfulfilling filler, and amounted to a pointless "reconciliation" of a pointless separation--not that a point could not be made of it, but it feels to me like needless repetition of stuff we've seen before and needless spinning out of melodrama.
    And yeah, where WAS Cas? Not even one throwaway line to explain his absence?

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  21. What I don't like about Charlie is the way she treats the guys, like they just don't have a clue about hunting and she always has to come to the rescue. UGH
    Have you watched Qualls show, Legit?

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  22. No flame from me. I think you articulate the problems very well here. And correct me if I'm wrong, because this really bothered me, but when Dean said he was leaving, he hesitated, like he was waiting for Sam to argue him out of it, and Sam told him "GO." Yes, Dean left, but Sam also sent him away and didn't try to stop him.

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  23. We'll have to agree to disagree about Charlie - ;)
    I haven't been interested enough in him as an actor to check it out - though I know he's gotten great reviews for it. I think it's just the way they write Garth in large part - I find he's a bit of a buffoon, yet he's the one who took over for Bobby? Mind you, Southern Comfort is probably my favorite of the Garth-i-sodes.

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  24. Have to agree with all you say here.

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  25. I wish I believed that, but midway through season nine and this just doesn't seem to me different from the same pattern we've seen over and over again before.
    You know what I'd like to see, though it will never happen? A whole episode where they just sit down and actually talk, hash things out for the entire episode. Not that that would be enough on its own to solve their problems, but it would make a lot more sense than sandwiching in a sentence or two between filler hunts. This pattern of angst, separation, brief chat at the end of an episode, back in the car, no further discussion of the underlying issues is very old.

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  26. Have to agree with everything you say here. I think this episode did suffer from comparison to last week's. And if they continue to have Sam and Dean say half sentences and never finish them, I'm going to pull my hair out! I completely agree that it is virtually impossible for them to write this tired situation with new dialogue - they've just done it too often.

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  27. Yay me! ;-)

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  28. I think the big difference between Southern Comfort and this is that Dean was completely innocent in all of that.

    This time, Sam was, basically, violated. And how do you get past that, especially in a short amount of time? I think Sam is trying, but it will take time.


    I think Sam meant when Dean left in early season 5.

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  29. I don't think Sam's reaction was OOC. He will likely take time to process it. He's no stranger to jumping into things himself. Dean is the one who tends to question and pause.

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  30. I'm not doubting your point here, but has this stuff about greater control within four generations of pure blood been mentioned before on the show? I don't recall hearing it before? Maybe it was discussed in that last werewolf episode, and I'm just not remembering it. Certainly, the idea of werewolves being born rather than bitten is new--not necessarily incompatible with canon, but new....

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  31. To me the main difference is saying, essentially, "I'm not going to accept 'we're family' as a justification anymore."


    I think that's what has needed to be said for a long time.


    The rest is overfamiliar.

    I don't see Sam and Dean ever really talking though. That bridge was burnt back in season 4.

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  32. Definitely noticed that as well, but it didn't surprise me as much as sadden me. Sam has never been as "attached" as Dean. I have gotten the distinct impression over the last couple of seasons that he wouldn't be all that upset if Dean were to leave for good. Even now he makes it appear that he wants to resume hunting together more for convenience sake than out of any real emotional attachment to his brother. He stated that they don't see things the same way, and that is so true. Sam has never seen "family" the same way Dean has. At the beginning of this show the dynamics between the brothers was SO well done, but now I just keep trying to figure Sam out. Season eight he just seemed so distant and cold to me, only to open up in the final episode. Now he is distant and cold again. I just don't know who he is and what he is thinking anymore, but to me he is coming across as an arrogant, self-centered ass while Dean is the bumbling brother who keeps trying to do the right thing only to screw up once more.

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  33. Nice pun on Joy's name, btw! :D

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  34. I agree with some of what you are saying, but when you say that Sam is finally standing up for himself and wanting to face the issue, I have to disagree. There is no evidence that he wants to "fix" the issue. Case in point...he was perfectly content to have Dean walk away again. Yes he realizes there is an issue, but his "let's work together but not be brothers" is just his own brand of dismissing or ignoring the problem. He doesn't want to just pretend the issue away, but he doesn't want to deal with it either. If you look back over the past seasons, whenever there is an issue between the boys, it is Dean who opens up the discussion to try and mend things. Sam just does his own version of the silent treatment and seems perfectly content to let the gap grow between them. This time is no different. Painting Sam as the mature victim in this whole scenario is just skewing the facts.

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  35. If he didn't want to fix it he would have told Dean to just stay away. I think he's taking slow steps.

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  36. Sam had just found out that he'd been possessed without his consent and he was still reeling. If we're talking about Road Trip.

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  37. In a way he did tell Dean to stay away, if not on a physical level then certainly on an emotional. With that being said, I DO think on a deep level they both want to fix things, they just don't know how to go about it. And on this, I think I agree with Lisa...I'm not sure it can be fixed anymore.

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  38. Actually Dean just said he'd chase Gadreel alone, doesn't necessarily mean 'I'll leave you', and yeah, he seemed shocked when Sam told him to go, but since he went and stayed gone I think it was intended, bad writing?!

    BTW I was surprised Dean never tried to call Cas in 2 weeks and ask about Sam, or Cas never tried to check on Dean. I wanted to say I am surprised Sam wasn't concern in 2 weeks either but remembered Carver's Sam wouldn't care even if his brother vanishes in front of his eyes.

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  39. I'm not sure why it's shameful to abandon a car (unless you mean because it was a nice car?). I tend to think that's what hunters do quite a bit.


    I don't feel like Sam hates Dean. I also don't think the show was saying that family is what is wrong. I think what they were saying is wrong is the idea that family means damaging, destructive behavior. The "family" that the show was built on, the bond between Sam and Dean, was not like that. Sam and Dean respected each other as brothers and equals.


    It was Dean selling his soul for Sam + all the secrets Sam had in season 4 that turned this into a toxic bond, and it's stayed that way ever since.


    I feel like they're saying, on some level, maybe they could go back, over time, to what Dean and Sam had early on. Not as fun or lighthearted, obviously, but the honesty and mutual respect.


    The last scene could have had more warmth, yes (to be honest I don't really think Sam is warm toward anyone - it's been destroyed in him, minus the occasional moments with Jody or Cas or Charlie), but I never felt like Sam hated Dean. I think if he did he would have told Dean to keep walking. He wants to try again, on more guarded terms, because when he trusted their relationship, it led to where they are now.


    I also think he just can't really process his mindset at the time he chose not to kill himself. I think he sees that, at the moment anyway, as another manipulation, another lie. Keep in mind that when he spoke to Cas last week, he agreed with Cas that he wanted to live at the church. I just don't think he can say that to Dean right now.


    Anyway, I agree with you about most of the episode. I thought it was dull, and while the effects didn't bother me (they seemed cheap, but the scene of the sheriff right before we went to commercial was pretty good), I just didn't care.


    I feel like we've gone over the whole "not all monsters are bad" several times now. I assume part of this is to prepare for the spinoff, which will have more monsters in sympathetic roles, but on the show itself it feels like recycling and is never treated seriously, because the show never keeps any monsters around in sympathetic roles (see Benny, Lenore, etc.).


    I did think that the scenes with Dean in action mode were very effective, and, with him using the arm that has the mark on it to take out the sheriff and the mother-in-law, I wonder if they were showing his building strength/accuracy.


    I wish they'd had more to say about the mark (I think Sam was probably concerned but not seriously at this point - he will probably be more concerned later on), but for MOTW I didn't mind the handling. At least it wasn't Sam coughing up blood in all the MOTW in the last half of last season.

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  40. we loved supernatural because this is amazing relationship between the brothers , but now Sam is very hate his brother and Dean try to protracting him because he still love his little brother Sammy , and he still Dean but Sam is change and i think he never back like before even after he know how Dean sacrifice every think for him since his 16 ,now i can't understand this character :( and i'm so sorry for Dean because his brother doesn't deserve what he doing for him

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  41. I have been agreeing with that to me its like ever since Dean came back in S4 Sam has not wanted to hunt with Dean. Its like the brotherly bond lost its self that season and never really came back. But to me Sam made the choice to not do the trials he always listened to Dean and what the heck about the speech showing dean the light. Has that gone out. I mean really I hope Dean leaves sam's butt one day if he is going to be the unhappy co pilot I mean if you are not family why hunt? If you run into Dean well at least wtih his new skills you should survive. But hey on your own then what happens happens. But yea I was enjoying the eps until Sam's speech and it was like you are not family then get out of the impala dude. ugh. I heard deans heartbreak and I know he knows he deserves what sam is saying but sam was down right cruel at times dean maybe bossy but sam is just cruel. JMO

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  42. Yes! Sam was violated, and it will take time to get over that. Nothing wrong with that. But telling his brother that he is basically disowning him seems a bit much. And as far as the early season five referral, I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. To me it seemed fairly obvious he was referring to Dean leaving a few weeks earlier.

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  43. I think it can be fixed to some degree. Last season, the second half, Dean was really opening up to Sam and Sam was trying to be honest with him too, and they were getting to a better place. It was the trials going haywire and Sam feeling like a failure/Dean losing and sacrificing everyone that destroyed this.

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  44. we loved supernatural because this is amazing relationship between the brothers , but now Sam is very hate his brother and Dean try to Protecting him because he still love his little brother Sammy , and he still Dean but Sam is change and i think he never back like before even after he know how Dean sacrifice every think for him since his 16 ,now i can't understand this character :( and i'm so sorry for Dean because his brother doesn't deserve what he doing for him

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  45. I guess I thought he might have been speaking of their relationship all among the years, but you're probably right.


    I don't think he was disowning Dean, just saying he won't accept the "I had to do this because we're brothers" mindset anymore. I think he still cares about Dean. He just won't let himself go to the dark place they both go to which led to Dean's deal with Gadreel.

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  46. Yes. I had the same feelings of resentment and anger on first watching. Sometimes I do not think Sam deserves Dean's undying loyalty, and I found myself shouting at Dean to just go. I hate that it is always him crawling back to Sam like a whipped dog and Sam condescendingly agreeing to take him back. With that being said, I understand that Sam has been deeply hurt, regardless of Deans motivation in doing what he did, and is in a way just trying to protect himself.

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  47. I think Dean wanted to stay away for their sake. Cas wanted to give Dean space.

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  48. Nothing was fixed in last season, they just forget about everything for the sake of the trials and the 2nd half big plot.

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  49. A phone call won't take much space or endanger them.

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  50. Still doesn't mean he's rewriting history and coming off like a dick while doing it.


    Am sick and tired of the yearly Dean hurts Sam's feelings and instead of actually giving Jared a chance to emote and give Sam a POV we get the annual Dean grovelfest. Seriously doesn't anyone else find this as getting old. Why on earth do we have to have this. Sam screws up and Dean has to bend, Dean screws up and Sam refuses to admit there might have been reasoning for it.

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  51. I've got to agree with you about Charlie.

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  52. I loved that Dean was honest about the mark. I didn't expect him to be and it was refreshing that he didn't lie about it. Now if only Sam had shown more interest/worry over it.

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  53. Makes sense. Sorry I am getting so hot under the hat. Dean has definitely made his share of mistakes. Still, he has always been undyingly loyal to Sam. His brother is and has always been the most important thing to him, and Sam trying to take that away from him just seemed so...cruel. You could see the pain and hurt in his eyes. I noticed Sam paused and didn't finish his sentence, and a part of me would like to believe it was because he saw the pain and didn't want to drive the knife deeper. I am hoping that you are right and Sam does want to fix things. I am hoping we will see him approach Dean and open up discussion. We have seen Dean do this time and time again, and it would be nice to see it go the other way for once. Not holding my breath though.

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  54. Thanks, you are one in a row. lol Most fans really like her, I like the actress, just not the character.

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  55. But what does that mean? Sam can say that is an unacceptable response, but if he never elaborates or explains why it's unacceptable, nothing will change. Sam needs to speak up and SAY what he wants (i.e., the writers need to get a clue and actually write dialogue for Sam that is clear and direct, enough riddles and double speak).

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  56. I agree w/much of what you say here, but I am one of the very few fans who had NO problem w/Sam and Dean's relationship at the end of S7. For me, Carver has only created false issues and false problems btw them.

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  57. I can't really disagree with you on any of your points. I thought the episode was okay. There were a few moments I really liked (i.e. Dean getting caught by Sam when he's lying about leads on Garth's whereabouts). I picked up on the werewolf inconsistencies too and they bothered me as well. I thought Dean and Garth's conversation near the end was nice and I was hoping that would lead to a nicely balanced scene between Sam and Dean. And this is where the big BUT comes in...

    That last scene was terrible. I mildly enjoyed the episode up until then. I'm sorry but what was Adam Glass thinking? He took what the majority of the fandom says is the reason they watch--and love--the show (the brother/family relationship) and completely blew it to smithereens. And as someone else said, it's pitting fan against fan (not that we didn't have some of that before but this has made it more bitter). To toy with the absolute core of the show is ridiculous...and dangerous. OH, and I hate the fact that he (Adam) took that beautiful scene we got at the church in last season's finale (the scene where Dean so eloquently defined family and love and Sam seemed to finally understand) and sullied it by having Sam use it as ammunition to hurl at Dean last night. That was completely unfair on Sam's part.

    I'm holding out hope that this can all be repaired but I sure can't figure out how.

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  58. no one made poor wooby Dean keep hunting with Sam at the end of the episode and way to fanwank

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  59. Dean thinks things through?


    -taking on the Mark of Cain without knowing anything about it or the consequences?
    -running of to say Yes to Michael was basically a hissy fit
    -selling his soul was a knee jerk reaction
    -going to Death so he could get Sam's soul back was reckless
    -killing Amy was based on his issues not on doing the right thing
    -wanting to kill Garth in this episode?
    -running away to get revenge on Gadreel?




    those were just the ones I could remeber

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  60. how is he disowning him? if he was he would have got in his won car and left. Sam simply said that if they hunt together they cant be brothers why? Thats bloody obvious look at all the shit thats happened by them being brothers and hunters. They dont do their job properly, people like kevin get killed. Things have to change. For now they'll be partners and they'll work on the brothers thing as they go along but it can not go back to what it was.

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  61. then by your own logic in season 5 Dean sent Sam away and in season 7 after the whole Amy thing and Sam says he's going Dean just says ok so surely thats Dean agreeing that Sam should go? It certainly isnt him asking Sam to stay.

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  62. um I must have missed the part where Dean grovelled was it during the time he said sorry and admitted he was wrong and suddenly understood where Sam was coming from?

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  63. I am mostly hoping this is the last time and they pushed this far to make sure the relationship now changes once and for all.


    I think Sam is trying to cope, more than anything. He was cold to Dean, but he's just getting by. I think he still cares about Dean, he's just guarded.

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  64. I agree. Things can never go back to the way it was. But Sam putting that all on Dean while also taking away the most important thing to Dean...cruel and unfair, IMO. And what is saying 'we can't act as brothers' other than disowning? Sam might have agreed to work with Dean, but he has slammed an emotional wall between them in the process. I understand his motivation...he is trying to protect himself from further hurt. But his rundown of Dean's "sins" made it appear he was blaming his brother for all their troubles. Not well written in my opinion.

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  65. I don't agree. Last season they became more honest and communicated better, and Dean was really trying to respect Sam's choices about the trials, not babying him too much, etc.

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  66. I think he has made it fairly clear. He doesn't want Dean to do awful things in the name of "family." He doesn't want to be manipulated and he doesn't want to be brought back if he's dead.

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  67. The fault for Kevin's demise. Hello??? NOT Dean. NOT Sam. It's on God. To have Dean claim to have brought Dean into this was crap. Dean did not bring Kevin into this. God did. Did Dean make Kevin a prophet? No. Dean had no say in that. Did Dean kill Kevin? No. Gadriel did. Did Dean order the death of Kevin? No. Metatron did. So, I don't know where the writer gets off even having Dean make a claim of himself being at fault for this. Yes, we all know Dean has guilt issues, but enough is enough. Dean does NOT lack common sense!


    Dean lied to Kevin and Kevin died believing he could trust "Sam." That's why Dean blames himself. Kevin asked Dean to be honest with him. Dean wasn't.

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  68. I agree, but Dean has called Cas when he needs support. Cas likely was respecting that boundary.

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  69. I think at the moment Sam is reacting as just Dean's hunting partner and not as a brother, which goes hand in hand with his speech at the end of the episode. He feels like they can be both at the same time because it screws everything up, bad things happen to them and people around them. I expect that as their relationship starts to fix and build Sam will be more invested in what the Mark actually means for Dean, he will have to save him in the end,

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  70. I was talking about when other people take risks. Dean immediately questions them and is angry/annoyed. Sam isn't like that. He's more low-key and waits.

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  71. well what if Sam doesnt want to fix the brotherhood? Does it matter? will it stop either one from having each others back during a hunt? will it affect Dean's relationships with all his friends? will it stop Sam from saving Dean at the end of the season because thats what this is all build up to?

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  72. Kevin could trust Sam. Kevin didn't know that Sam was "Gadriel" at the time... Dean didn't, either... Dean had only just learned that Ezekiel as not Ezekiel possessing Sam. How was Dean not honest? (Unless you mean that Dean had not told Kevin that there was a psycho angel possessing Sam, which Dean didn't even know himself, when he told Kevin he could trust Sam.)

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  73. Dean is more judgmental than Sam I agree

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  74. You're right, "we're family" is not a good (let alone good enough) justification for everything--but then, that point itself has been established umpteen times in the last several years (it's not even the first time, really, that they've recognized this themselves). I don't have a problem with Sam's not accepting that being family justifies everything. But the dichotomy of "we can hunt together but (implicitly) not be brothers" seems to me to be an unnecessary, melodramatic way to articulate the problem. It sets up an artificial either/or. Don't get me wrong; I understand and sympathize with Sam's sense of betrayal and with the need for time and (mutual) effort to rebuild relationships, But this scene--AS WRITTEN (which may be part of why it's problematic for me)-- does not seem to lay groundwork for effort or rebuilding but instead for compartmentalizing. That's made all the more frustrating by virtue of the fact that we can all (I think) be pretty sure that the show will avoid the actual heavy lifting that would be necessarily realistically to repair the relationship (you know, like actually talking to each other in depth and honestly), but will pull off some hand-waving in a few episodes to create an emotional rapprochement ("my brother is in immediate mortal danger! I must put aside our petty grievances and save him, for he really does mean everything to me!"--regardless of which one is in mortal peril), just in time for the season cliff-hanger, and the next chapter in the Sam and Dean on the outs with each other soap opera for next season.

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  75. I think Kripke and Gamble started most of this. Dean saying he would kill himself rather than live without Sam, as romantic music played in the background, was one of the most self-loathing, horrifying moments Dean has ever had on this show. And that was in mid-season 2.

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  76. Sam trying to cope doesn't mean that he gets a free pass with regards to the way he copes. He is telling his codependent brother that he doesn't want to be his brother. That not only Dean tricked him into being possessed but also laid the whole not closing hell on Dean.


    Dean admitted he was wrong, sure he did it badly, but Sam hitting out the way he does and part of that was hitting out isn't fair and isn't helping. It is the same every time, Sam lays it on and Dean backs down but we are then told Sam feels guilty but we never get shown it on a truly emotional level that goes anywhere. This season Sam tells Dean that not only doesn't trust him not only for the possession but because he talked him out of closing the gates. But he agrees with Cas he made a choice about it - seriously that is going to have an effect on the relationship between the brothers and won't help it get to a place where it gets healthy if it continues in that vein.

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  77. Obviously you did.

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  78. It was featured in the episode Bitten, and the "Werewolf Lore" was pretty much - IMO - 'snaked' - from the (US) show "Being Human" where the closer to being born to at least one werewolf parent (Pureblood) the more control you over the change. BH is the only show I'm familiar with but there may be more shows or movies/books that also include the "Pureblood Lore". I don't mind Werewolf canon evolving as the show still keeps the canon the werewolves are harmed or killed with silver and there's no cure. On Being Human a 'bitten" can be cured by killing the werewolf who bit them - something the boys tried for Madison but it didn't work.

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  79. Sam basically gave him an ultimatum, separate the fact that he's his brother when hunting, or not hunt together at all.

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  80. Okay, gotcha. I didn't realize he had not told Kevin that "Ezekiel" was in there, but then he hadn't told anyone, so I should have figured. I do have blonde moments.

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  81. I saw Sam not finishing his line at the end as him holding back from possibly saying something he would regret.

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  82. The thing with Sam is he's learned to let go, he had that whole time loop with Gabriel, and of course Dean actually dying. So him thinking Dean was dead at the end season 7 and his reaction made sense.


    Also, he totally brought his shortcomings at the end of season 8, there was that whole talk in the church.

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  83. I must be going blind, because the werewolves looked exactly the same the last two appearances.

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  84. Sam isn't "uncaring" as far as Dean goes. Not at all. Hence his confession of his biggest sin being letting Dean down. He meant what he said way back in season 1, that he would die for Dean. We see season after season the extremes that BOTH brothers will go for one another. At the end of season 7, it was understood that there would be no more lying, no more bs. They BOTH counted on that. I don't think Sam would be as angry with Dean now if Dean had been up front when he came to Sam (in Sam's head) that last time, rather than tricking him into fighting to live by accepting possession of an angel. Also, what it showed was that, once again, Dean made a choice for Sam, rather than letting Sam make an adult decision by himself, because Dean still sees Sam as a kid. He can't accept that Sam is a grown up and can make his own decisions.

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  85. That's OK. I don't even think the writers remember most of these things.

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  86. I think after so long, they forget and get confused...they need to keep notes, I think...lol.

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  87. The problem is admitting you did wrong doesn't mean you won't keep doing it. Didn't he even tell Sam that he had no regrets about what he did? I think Sam was just trying to draw a line in the sand. Maybe he shouldn't have blamed him for the talk in the church, but I think he's saying Dean wanted him to live for the wrong reasons.

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  88. Defending or admonishing the brothers' actions was not the point of my post.


    Also I'm glad you could find a caring brother in Sam, I'm sure you're not alone, but many other viewers, I included, as hard as tried, couldn't. I think there's a serious problem w/ the set up and characterizations here.

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  89. And the speech in the church about being prepared to die in part because he felt he always let Dean down and how he felt that his brother put a vampire and angel before him like the one you are saying Sam is drawing in the sand is a line too far. It puts too much on Dean. Way too much and makes Sam not responsible in any way for the ending of the trials or him wanting to die or anything about Dean wanting Sam to live for apparently the wrong reasons.


    Wanting Sam to live was because he couldn't let go of his brother comes off of his brother telling him he is an emotional mess because of him, those were words Sam said. Also if Sam saying yes was because Dean wanted Sam to live in the wrong way, he also has to look at why he said yes - he said yes for the wrong reasons if he was truly ready to go.


    If the relationship is to get healthier then Sam has to voice that he knows he made choices that played a part in where they are now. Sam can't tell Dean that he's only there due to Dean forcing him to be there without some sort of blow back - either him pushing Dean into a holding pattern until he breaks and goes to a dark place or we just go back to another round of rinse and repeat.

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  90. I do, as well. Unfortunately, that's an issue within the writers of the show. If we go back and watch from season 1... we see two brothers who have a great love/loyalty/respect, etc., for one another, and are constantly torn back and forth by hard circumstances... but then they (writers) who have made it clear that "family" is the core foundation of what keeps these two together, is brought into question by making it so easy for everyone to choose sides over who is right and who is wrong over misunderstanding of who means what by what is said or inferred. Sam could very well have meant "we are no longer brothers", just as easily as he could have meant "we are, but we have serious issues that are gonna take major work, but I still love you as much as I always have", but because he wasn't given the words to complete his sentence, it's caused tension all across the "family" board that has extended into the fanbase. I think the writers need to be a bit more clear as to what the meanings are, so as not to screw everyone up.

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  91. I don't agree with most of your post, but I'm lmao at this line: "I'm really wondering what emotional trauma Carver has gone through to think that family affection and love is troublesome, and the more you act like a dick the more matured you are."

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  92. Actually I have no intention to reason w/ S8 craziness, from the beginning that Sam simply thinks Dean is dead (honestly, suppose your sibling goes missing in war or an explosion or anything, you'd never believe they're dead until you see a prove, and until then you wouldn't stop searching or losing hope, am I wrong?) through the end in which a little talk solved all the ugly things from the start.
    I'd rather write it all off as OOCness and Carver's screw-up.

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  93. I'd assume since he can't make contact with Castiel, it's safe to say that they died. Dean used a weapon meant to kill and got caught in the blast radius. He had no reason to think he got sucked down into Purgatory.

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  94. I am with you on this, from ep 1 with the not looking to that pity party in the church, poor Sam just so mistreated not loved, my only thought when he was doing this rant was ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Just how many times had he betrayed Dean in 8 seasons? I may never watch season 8 again, it was awful and I had really looked forward to Carver coming back.

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  95. He didn't make that clear though. He was actually quite vague. It would have been better if he had stated what you did.

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  96. I guess for me it would have been a good thing only if they'd ever had an open and positive relationship. Since season 3, I have not seen that. It just happens in fits and starts, and then we're back to the misery.


    I think Kripke destroyed the bond in season 4 and since then it's just felt hollow. That's why I don't think Carver hates family - he hates the husk of "family." And I wish the show would repair it.

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  97. I don't think there was any way for him to say it, because he was about to say something that would have likely upset Dean even more. I didn't like the writing in the scene but I could sort of understand where Sam was going. I don't think he knew how to express himself and just tried for basic guidelines.

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  98. I agree, but I feel like at this point Sam himself is not healthy enough to make these distinctions. He does feel like he was manipulated into staying alive, for reasons that were unhealthy. He can't process his feelings and Dean's feelings, can't separate them.


    I thought the scene was too vague, and Dean got too much blame, but I think Sam just doesn't know where to take this, how to word it.

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  99. So you'd be okay if your brother let some angel squat in you without your permission?

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  100. Amanda Meuwissen30 January 2014 at 03:28

    Signing in after writing a long reply apparently deletes said reply...fantastic. Anyway, to try again here, I am honestly perilously close to stopping watching Supernatural for good. Really this time. :-) Not because of the excess drama, hating Sam, being frustrated with Dean, etc., but the stagnancy, which you have called out so perfectly here. The characters never grow. We're back to the same thing again, and it's really getting...well, boring. Not to mention annoying when the rabid brother-specific fans hate on the other side. I should have known to come here before tumblr to get a clearer opinion on these events, and you really did say it all perfectly in regards to that last scene. What a disappointment. I'd love to see them do something different, let the brothers both grow for once and find a healthier relationship at the end of this season, but considering how things have been going so far, I don't have much hope for that. It's just feeling more and more like a chore to watch.

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  101. I hear what Sam is saying and I think the entire SPN universe will agree that the relationship is broken (actually I think I have brain damage from the number of times show has knocked me over the head with how broken it is) but IMO the mistake Sam makes is thinking Dean can separate the two. He really really doesn't understand his brother at all. Looking at his 'terms' that they can be hunters or brothers, fog horn sirens should have gone off in Sam's when Dean got into the car. The only thing I got out of this is how utterly empty they both are at this point. Neither should be hunting and certainly not together. Show also need to show consistency with the writing, even in the same episode, the audience sees them working so well together, yet at the end of the show they have Sam so utterly out of love with his brother. That has got to permeate everything, including the hunt surely

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  102. I think Sam respects the hell out of Dean as a hunter and a partner. He just doesn't trust him as a brother right now. I feel like that's what the episode was trying to convey. I agree that Dean can't separate the two, but ultimately Sam has to draw the line because of what happened with Gadreel.

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  103. I know what you mean, but I feel like this season actually is an attempt to make them grow. This feels like a line in the sand. I just hope they follow through.

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  104. Sam never said he didn't want to be brothers. He said, if you want to work... let's work. If you want to be brothers... then he just let it hang. To me it seemed like they couldn't have both at the same time right now. "Something's broke... We don't see things the same way right now."

    Sam doesn't get to express himself often, but the way I saw this is that because they are family they have made the wrong choices too often. Sam didn't kill Azazel when he was in John, John made a deal to save Dean and gave up the thing needed to open the gates of Hell, Dean made a deal to save Sam which ended up breaking the first seal, Sam started drinking demon blood to get revenge on Lilith and ended up breaking the last seal, etc....

    Sam has reached a point where he doesn't feel that his life is worth more than anybody else's (that is what he told Castiel). But, Dean still seems to be ready to sacrifice anything to save Sam.

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  105. This is the same scenario we saw at the end of Good God, Y'all. Dean had told Sam he didn't trust him, then when Sam started doubting himself, he told Dean and said he was leaving. He looked like he expected an argument from Dean and didn't get it. Then, Sam called him to ask for help after finding out Lucifer's plans for him and Dean brushed him off... It was just Lucifer... No big.

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  106. Are you just talking about this year? Undyingly loyal to Sam? He has made incredible sacrifices again and again for Sam, but he has also rubbed Sam's face in his mistakes again and again. Told him he trusted him, then treated him like a child over and over... Dean is always waiting for the other shoe to drop, thinks Sam needs a chaperone, bosses him (and Castiel) around continuously. Except for when he first started noticing the hellucinations and his nose bleeds after the trials, Sam has been pretty honest with Dean since he got his soul back. Before he jumped in the cage, he was very open as well.... but Dean won't let go of his trust issues. He wants to take care of Sam as a Younger brother... not hunt with him as a partner. Sam has been asking for a partnership since Fallen Idols...

    Sam did not say he didn't want to be brothers he seemed to be saying he didn't want to hunt as brothers. Dean is too willing to sacrifice for Sam without taking Sam's position / desires into consideration.

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  107. I belive Carver is trying to deal with the major issues in the relationship once and for all and its not just about seeing one side or one brother being right or he did this and he did that. This is actual growth, its important otherwise we'll be going round in circles year after year. I dont know why people dont understand why Dean did what he did, I dont know why people dont get why Sam reacted like he did and said what he said. I dont get why people dont see that there is something broken and it needs to be fixed not brushed under the carpet. I dont think Carver would have gone this far had them do the things they did, say the things they said unless he had a real reason too. Hopefully this is the start of things not going back to how they have always been but actually getting better.

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  108. Perception is everything, if you chose to see something in a certain way then you will only see it in that way. We all see things how we want to which is a major issue with this show they sometimes leave far too much open to fan interpretation but other times they spell things out and still some fans chose to see things only from their favourite characters POV.

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  109. also not true, Dean acts like dick all the time and is often shown as immature, so I dont think thats what Carver was trying to sell.

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  110. I dont think this is even about the question of them saving each other, if no one got hurt (including each other) or there werent horrible consequences every time they did it wouldnt be an issue. Here the issue is the morality of it saving each other, are the consequences worth it? Ask either one of them and they would tell you that they would die for the other but they wouldnt want the other to die for them. Even Dean would have been angry had he been in Sam's shoes this season, he wouldnt have wanted Sam to save him if it meant others were potentially put at risk.

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  111. plenty of fans will think the worst of Sam no matter what even if the writers have Sam say everything everything in lamens terms. Also Dean's lines in the speach werent particularly well written either people just fanwanked them to make Dean come across as the victim.

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  112. I dont think Sam learned to let go during that whole Trickster time loop, I dont think we were actuallu shown that Sam had learned to let go. What we got was a line from Bobby and a line from Dean suggesting that when a persons time was up it was up and then the writers had Sam take that advice and run with it. Only to be told after when he had listened that he shouldnt have and that he was wrong. Mixed messages there me thinks.
    I think Sam would save Dean in a heart beat IF it meant no one else was hurt, it wasnt going against Dean's own wishes and there werent going to be horrible consequences.
    I think he rally really wants to save Dean because he hasnt been able to in the past and he wants to not let Dean down and I think he will have to this season on the condition that its the right thing to do otherwise we're just going round in circles.

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  113. 'Betrayal is the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others'

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  114. No where in Dean's speeach on Family did it say they would throw any one else under the bus for each other, no where did he say screw the consequences and no where did he say that family means going against the others wishes. Maybe he should have been clearer about his definition of Family. Then he should go and tell it to Kevin.

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  115. which is where the title Saint Dean comes from, the writers will go out of there way to make sure Dean comes off smelling like roses to the naive masses.

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  116. maybe it was just an unfinished though? Maybe he doesnt know?

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  117. Why do you even care if Sam says they cant be brothers anymore? You dont like Sam and this way your precious Dean gets to do whataver he wants and not have to worry about Sam or save him next time. This is the breaking of the co-dependancy Dean fans wanted, now they're just two guys working together like any other guys working together.
    Please dont respond to any of my posts in future I'm tired fo your Sam hate, I wnt bother with your posts in the future

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  118. about as much interst/worry as Dean had in Gadreel's left over grace in Sam

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  119. really she and Dean are like besties, if anything the way she treats Sam is a joke but then she and Sam are aquantences not friends

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  120. Well if he didn't I would not know it...I would be DEAD.

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  121. Yes, but Dean came a long way through the series to S5 final, and if they had gone w/ Kripke's plan w/ just 5 seasons, we'd have a satisfying conclusion for both of them. Clearly Dean was supposed to have a truly happy life w/ Lisa and Ben.
    Unfortunately Carver didn't see the two matured brothers at the end of S5, he created two different characters by horribly regressing them and then said 'they need to be matured'.

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  122. Dean figured out the deer was a fresh kill not Sam and Sam wasn't pissed that Dean is working with Crowley. I believe the brothers can be parted with good reasons and tension unfortunately Carver is completely incapable of doing like Kripke and Gamble. Carver's idea is to turn Supernatural into a soap opera and a bad one at that. The show needs a new show runner who won't start the mytharc halfway through the season and before it really gets started interrupt it with multiple comedy eps. Carver wrecked the main characters in season 8 and he continues to destroy the show in season 9. If he doesn't get the show cancelled hopefully he'll be replaced in season 10.

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  123. no maybe i will get angry but not going to tell him we will just work together not like brother especially after he did to me sacrifices his life for me

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  124. I have never tried to say that Dean is the perfect brother, or that he doesn't make mistakes. He does...a lot. What I consider loyalty is that Dean does not walk away from their relationship and dismiss it. When things get bad he always makes an attempt to fix it (sometimes a pretty lousy attempt, but he still tries.) I just have not seen that same loyalty from Sam. He has walked away time and time again, and I am sorry but that bothers me. He may have had his reasons, but you can't take them into account without taking into account the reasons behind Dean doing what he does. Very different reasons stemmed from very different motivations, but that doesn't mean one is better (or more noble, or more right) than the other. Dean's love and loyalty are one of the things I love about him (even if it sometimes goes too far), but it is also what causes a lot of people to dislike him. We could easily get lost in lists of "wrongs" each brother has done against the other, but it wouldn't get us anywhere. The biggest thing that bothers me now is that neither brother "sees" the other right now. Dean doesn't see Sam's need to be independent and to not have his life held as more valuable, and Sam doesn't see that for Dean, he doesn't know how to do it any other way. He has told Sam that several times, but Sam seems to want him to flip some kind of magical switch and change who he is at his very core. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
    Furthermore, Sam has not taken any of the responsibility on himself. He CHOSE to stop at the church. He told Dean that he wanted to live, both in the beginning of this season and in last season, but is now angry that his brother has acted to uphold that wish. Both brothers are trying to change the other into who they want them to be, and it's just not going to work.

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  125. You have said all the things I wanted to say, but you did it much better. Thanks.

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  126. Again, I hope you're right, but didn't he promise a more mature relationship between the boys (the fact that they are still called that is telling, isn't it?) last season? I grant you these things take time--often a lot of time in the real world--but how much tmie is too much time in the world of serial TV? I think we went through that window a while ago.

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  127. I can't speak for the naive masses (or maybe I can; would I even know?), but I don't think Dean did, or was intended to, come across smelling like roses in relation to this whole Gadreel thing. I think the show wanted us to see him as faced with an impossible choice (a contrived one, I grant, and one that ought to have been predictable) and making what seemed to him like the only possible one but which we as audience members ought to have seen as a choice that would inevitably have disastrous consequences (again, for predictable reasons). From a pragmatic perspective, the show is not going to paint a scenario in which either Sam or Dean dies (permanently, anyway) before the show is over. so, Sam being "saved" was a foregone concusion. The noly question was how to do it. I think the show made a bad choice on that front, but I think the choice was made with a definite intent for us to see Dean doing--as Cas ends up saying--the wrong thing for the right reason. (We might disagree about the reason being right, but I think we are supposed to agree that it was indeed the wrong thing.)

    The problem, for me, I guess, is that the sort of impossible choice Dean faced requires tragic scope to work, but SPN simply is not (not can it be, really) in that category; it ended up being melodrama.

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  128. I get that Sam isn't exactly in a healthy place. However this has happened s many times before and not been resolved in a way that has any real growth this scene as vague as it seems just made it look like the writers have either decided to undercut the work done in First Born with regards to Sam by making him look like a tool. Because with out any resolve in the future to this where Sam actually voices that he made choices that have also lead to where they are just now hurt and reeling or not that was too far with the blame game to make Sam look sympathetic even if the point is to push Dean further down a dark road.


    The thing is I'm not sure that there is enough trust to believe that will happen. I'm not asking for a magic wand to fix things but I would like it if we got back to a point where if Sam acts like a tool to his brother, even if Dean has done something wrong he is allowed to be called out for it.


    I'm just really fed up with victim Sam which since Kripke left I feel has become Sam's major character trait. You can say that is Sam bashing but that is the way I see it.

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  129. Oh and I'll miss the way you read my mind and tell me how much I hate Sam.

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  130. I don't believe that Sam could have said anything that would have hurt Dean more than we can hunt together but I don't want to be your brother. Have to agree with @lala2 here - Sam could have said exactly what you said. Dean knows he's done stupid and evil things. I find it hard to believe he could hate himself any more at this point.

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  131. Agreed! Sam has never really understood Dean - and Dean can't accept or fathom that family doesn't mean the same to Sam as it does to him. Because Sam wouldn't sacrifice everything for family - though he would sacrifice it for the greater good of society - he can't understand Dean's drive to do that.

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  132. Sam told him that Cas had taken care of it...

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  133. I agree - and this goes right back to Shadow in season 1. Sam was ready to walk away again as soon as they'd found Jessica's killer. As for your last comment - that's how I see the brothers too.

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  134. Is everyone forgetting that Sam AGREED to stop the trials? That wasn't a trick...

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  135. Dean didn't trick Sam into agreeing to give up the trials.... just sayin' - not saying he isn't culpable for other things but not that...

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  136. It was bad writing - considering Dean's obsession with Abaddon all of a sudden! But great point about him not contacting Cas to check on Sam. On the other hand, he has to know that taking on the mark of Cain is a bad thing and likely didn't want Cas to know about that. Maybe more surprising that Cas didn't drop in to check on Dean...

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  137. And in both of those instances, Dean was allowing Sam to walk away from the hunt. Theoretically, Sam wouldn't be in danger. Regardless, I'm not playing the blame game - I never said that Dean hasn't also made mistakes. He also let Sam walk away in Scarecrow...

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  138. I never said that Dean is blameless...

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  139. Totally agree with you!

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  140. I remember eve Jensen calling Dean a dick on a YouTube convention vid...lol. Dean is a hard ass and not very gentle or eloquent with expressing what he thinks... yeah I love him to pieces, but he's just not very subtle or eloquent.

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  141. I love how you reason things out. Hell, I'm a writer and you're so much better at written expression than I am. :-) I try to see both sides, and I think all in all I'm doing pretty good... just trying to get folks not to be so one-sided, and many are just not willing to bed. Contrary to popular opinion, I DO see Dean's side, as well, but many refuse to even try to see it from Sam's POV. Neither brother is bad, but BOTH are wrong and yet, BOTH are right AND justified in feeling, words, and reactions to one another.

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  142. Have to agree - the show really needs to show us a better picture of Sam's motivation in particular.

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  143. Dean knows he's done bad things, but he also feels that the decision was worth it. What happens if right after they go back on the road, Sam is gunned down? Dean would probably sell his soul again, because hey, he's damned anyway, right? I think that's what Sam was trying to say. I'm not your brother in the context of these deals and killing yourself or other people for me. I can see where it hurts Dean, but he almost had to be brutal. I don't think he meant that Dean was not a brother to him in most definitions of the word. I hope he shows Dean that. I wish he and the writing would also admit that Sam has contributed to this at times. But in this instance I think he had to be as harsh as he was, to get the point across to Dean.

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  144. I think Sam understands it to some level, which is why he wasn't more shocked or outraged when he found out what Dean did to him. I just don't think he knew it would go this far.

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  145. My concern was for a _very_ nice car - you don't often see a '72 that is that cherry.

    We will have to agree to disagree over Sam's feelings for Dean, I think. The thing that Dean did that crossed the line was let an angel - who Cas told him was a good guy - save his brother's life - right after his brother told him he wanted to live. I think Dean has amply processed that that was a bad, bad call. I suspect that Sam's objection may ultimately boil down to "don't ever let anything possess me to save me" but then by that logic he'd have to be even more pissed about Crowley possessing him to throw out Gadreel - round and round we go. However, those are the sorts of parameters they need to set up. I'm certainly not saying Dean is blameless. However, maybe it was bad acting, but what I saw on Sam's face was a bare tolerance for his brother - but again, we can agree to disagree.

    What I really think needs to happen is for both of them to sit down and really decide what they want out of their lives and then to establish firm and clear borders with each other - and how each fits into the other's life. I'm not holding my breath this will ever happen...

    I do agree that this is probably helping set the groundwork for the spinoff...

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  146. And yet, a large part of the fandom cried OOC about Sam being ok with Dean being dead... FYI - not me. I thought, wow! This actually goes back to the roots of Sam wanting a life outside hunting - which, let's face it, is way healthier! You are supposed to want to grow up and leave home...

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  147. Thanks! I'm determined to stick it out, but it gets to be more of a slog after episodes like this. Carver promised he was moving to a healthier more mature relationship between the brothers, and I'll keep hoping he is. I just hope he's not making that the core of his planned three year arc!?! I CAN'T stand watching this train wreck for another year and a half. This needs to be fixed now.... And I'm always happy to give you a heads up when there's a good episode!

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  148. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Dean did discover it was a fresh kill, but he and Sam came to the same conclusion. With the best ratings in three years, Carver is here to stay.

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  149. Agreed that he can't find Dean without Dean or someone telling him, but he has his angel mojo back - he doesn't need to drive.

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  150. I actually also review Walking Dead.
    If someone cared enough about me to stop me from committing suicide, I wouldn't feel manipulated. I completely understand the reasoning behind choosing to live because your death would mean hardship for someone who cares about you.
    I get why Sam feels manipulated about being possessed - I don't get the depth of his distrust and really hatred of Dean for this though. Is it possibly tempered with some survivor's guilt over choosing to live over shutting the gates of Hell? That I could get behind...

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  151. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think Sam nods and says he gets it, but because he doesn't feel it himself, he really doesn't get it.

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  152. My problem remains that he didn't say any of that. And that is the problem. These brothers don't understand each other on a very fundamental level - leaving things half said or unsaid just leads to more misunderstandings. Look how much we've all interpreted this in various ways - who's to say how Dean understood it...

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  153. I see no reason for this back and forth defending of either brother. I view it as Adam Glass has a tendency to throw in the kitchen sink when he is trying to write an emotional episode. He did the same thing in Southern Comfort when he had Dean blaming Sam for coming back soulless. It is a testament to the fact that Glass does not remember from one episode to the other what he wrote or to the fact that he doesn't have a clue what the season's story is from year to year.

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  154. I read a blog, actually last night in which another person had said something that I was thinking at the time...sometimes we have to say something harsh, to get through to a person. The whole "tough love" thing. I don't think Sam truly mean "I don't want to be your brother". At all. I believe Sam loves Dean wants to continue being his brother, but things have to change. They have a lot to work out. I just hope the writers get their crap together and make it happen. I'm even tired of the constant looping. I feel like I'm in the darn Mystery Spot episode season after season.And darn if they didn't move the show to Tuesdays!

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  155. This is true...there are a lot of communication gaps between the two... misunderstandings are a lot of their problem...

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  156. I hope this isn't the core of the storytelling, too. Like you, I don't think I can take it, if that's the way it is going to go. However, we are up to our armpits in it following this episode, and that is very worrisome.

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  157. I actually thought the show did a fantastic job showing Dean's dysfunction and paralysis and sense of loss, and his feeling that he had no choice. They really explained his POV every step of the way for the first half of the season. Frankly, I just wish they knew how to do any of that with Sam.

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  158. I think he understands why Crowley possessed him - to get Gadreel out.

    I think that Sam saw the situation as - if I'm going to die, then let it happen, don't bring me back. At this point he can't separate his suicidal thoughts he chose to fight from his dying and Dean saving him. Maybe he can someday.

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  159. Carver left the show at the end of season 5. Gamble and Singer destroyed anything that might have been a positive path for Dean and Sam (although I really have my doubts as to how happy Dean would have been with Lisa and Ben).

    I do think Carver did a lot of damage to Sam in season 8, and regressive behavior, but I feel like the characters, especially Dean, had been hollowed out when he arrived. I think he's done a lot for Dean. Sam, not so much.

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  160. Every showrnner has interrupted the mytharc for comedy episodes. Kripke had the most lethargic apocalypse I've ever seen on a TV show. Gamble had Sam and Dean playing with slinkies and talking about the woman they shared instead of dealing with the Leviathans. It's just the clumsy, forced narrative the show can't shake. I'd say it might be Singer.

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  161. He still needs to drive - that's why he got the car in Road Trip. Angels can't fly now.

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  162. I think in Sam's mind it's - so you wanted me to live because you can't live without me, not because it's best for me.


    That's not fair to Dean, but i think that's where he is right now.

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  163. I agree. And I agree it's repetitive. I'm hoping that this is the low point and everything will build back up again in a positive way. I just wish Sam had a POV! and that his history was properly used in the narrative!

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  164. I think his wife is still showrunner on Being Human.

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  165. The car was probably stolen and now it can go back to its owner. ;)

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  166. I agree with you, in that I would love to see one episode where they just sit down and talk, even if they have to do it using flashbacks to emphasize the issues that "broke" the relationship (because just sitting and talking through the whole show would be boring with a capital "B". At least then they could both put all their cards on the table...lay it out straight... and work from there...openly, and start laying out the "rules", or whatever... and defining the boundaries of what is and is not acceptable.

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  167. Oh I don't think he will always come out on top, I'm just saying in his own mind, he's certain he will, because he does get himself in some pretty hairy binds doing what he does, also...and then has to be rescued...it's happened more than once.

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  168. "Mystery Spot" is one of my favourite episodes, but I take your point.

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  169. Call me weird (no, really, go ahead), but I don't think it would be boring. Of course, I always wanted to see one whole episode of 24 where nothing happened: Chloe sitting in front of her computer as it compiles data; Jack sleeping in a plane seat as he wings somewhere; whatever his daughter's name was sitting bored in a cougar trap or locked in a basement or whatever; etc.

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  170. But Cas has his mojo back, doesn't he? All he needs to know is where Dean is and then he can zap himself there, no?

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  171. Not if the family we should act more like is the Winchesters.... ;-)

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  172. Season 4/5 are my favourites, but yeah, that was a leisurely apocalypse. Of course, the nature of serial TV pretty much required it to be.

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  173. Actually all the angels lost their wings in the fall, so they can't zap anymore.

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  174. Back In Black Tricksteress 9530 January 2014 at 22:49

    I thought it was kind of a sweet episode (despite the ending lol). The ratings with this episode is terrific.
    The new brand of werewolves kind of makes sense with them breeding, so I don't see a problem with that even if the mythology is a little bit different. It was a mix-up with the bad monsters from the good ones, which was good.
    It was great seeing Garth back and the explanation made sense why he wasn't hunting with them. It was good to see Garth and his interaction with the boys. He never lets those hugs slide! :)
    The brothers' bond was quite acceptable for a while. It was a shame that Dean didn't tell Sam earlier about the Cain thing, but at least he knows now. Both of the boys would be concerned about each other but because of their communication issues things can be stiff. Sam would be curious about the mark but it was in the moment that he was more worried that Dean worked with Crowley, and anger took over. On any given moment Sam would like to kill Crowley just as much as Dean.
    Dean would also be equally as worried about Sam, so basically they're not showing in a healthy outlets.
    So despite their negativity towards each other (understandably) at least they're still working.
    I think Sam had a right to be angry, them being brothers phrase is abit stingy but if Sam really hated Dean he would've just left, and vice-versa Dean would've pushed Sam away.
    Sam did not like to be possessed by a 'pyscho angel' and Dean would not let Sam go.
    I think both of them just need to articulate everything that had happen more healthily, and hopefully their fights dosen't get any worse.
    Overall a great episode :)

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  175. I don't know about a WHOLE episode of just talking, but I sure would like to see some. I really feel like the last couple of seasons have done Sam an injustice. We just don't get to hear much about what he's thinking or feeling, and so he comes across as cold and indifferent. I hear a lot of people say they "think" Sam loves his brother, or they "think" Sam wants to fix the relationship, but in all honesty I just don't see how his actions or dialogue match up with this. And the truth is, I think it might just be due to poor writing. Sam isn't very often given an opportunity to really share his thoughts towards his brother, so we are left with trying to read and interpret his actions. We all know what Dean is thinking/feeling...he wears his emotions openly (mostly through his eyes). But Sam is the great mystery. If he really does care for his brother, I really wish we could have an episode where he tells Dean so. Openly. It would not only clear up my own mixed emotions regarding him, but I think it would be just the thing Dean needs so desperately to hear in order to start to heal. Just my opinion.

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  176. LOL! Well I don't know about you, but since I'm labeled as a Dean fan, as if it's a crime, sometimes I'm condemned to get a down vote from some other fans no matter what I say. I got 1 down vote in less than 5 seconds after posting this comment, and no matter how fast this person can read, they couldn't possibly read my comment 'that' fast.
    (plz note, I'm not accusing all of Sam fans here, we all know there are some over passionate fans in SPN.)

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  177. I am not sure how you can say that Sam was not saying they couldn't be brothers. That is exactly what he was saying, and by the look in Dean's eyes that was exactly what he heard.
    "So what are you saying...we're not family anymore?"
    "I'm saying if you want to hunt, let's hunt. If you want to be brothers..."
    The writers leave the viewers to fill in the rest, but I'm pretty sure it's hard to interpret it "sure, let's continue to be brothers!" Arguing that was not what Sam was saying is just completely misreading the scene. Other than that, I agree with everything else you said.

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  178. Exactly what I said. You made my point for me! Sam's words were, "I'm saying if you want to hunt, let's hunt. If you want to be brothers...". They were not, "I don't want to be brothers." ;-)

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  179. I think we all can agree. They "have work to do" :-)

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  180. Kim. Jack's daughter's name was Kim. :-) I have the whole 24 series. Loved it! :-)

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  181. I haven't read all these comments, but Sam absolutely did say that family was the problem. "You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family."
    So, no, Sam did not specifically say that he did not want to be brothers. He said that being brothers was the cause of every bit of conflict they have ever had...not self esteem issues, not inferiority issues, not power issues, not abandonment issues, not trust issues, not the consequences of self-sacrifice, not destiny issues, and not fighting for free will. In other words, what Sam did say was that if he was not have a brother, then there would be no issues for either of them to deal with between themselves. That is not yet to the point of disowning Dean, but then we have not heard yet what his terms are before he makes that decision.

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  182. Are you a lawyer? LOL. Maybe legally speaking you can't properly interpret it, but using simple deductive reasoning with a side of common sense, and the meaning is pretty obvious. If he didn't mean that, what would YOU say he meant, because he obviously was saying SOMETHING, and in my opinion it is harder to buy that he had some secret, unknown meaning behind his words than to just take them at face value.

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  183. When someone down votes me, they are wasting their time, I never go back and look. I do think disqus should also show who is down voting not just the up votes.

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  184. Yeah, he was and as rehabber says his wife Anna Fricke is still BH's showrunner. I don't think it so much as a true canon change as an an evolution of canon brought about in S6 in the concept of Alphas of each 'monster' species.That makes the previous werewolves encountered by the Winchesters. including Madison, as having been bitten by werewolves generations far beyond "pureblood".

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  185. I took it to mean he would not hunt with him if he wanted to be brothers. He did not want Dean to go over board saving his BROTHER. He would hunt with him only as a hunter, not a brother. Seems to me he was saying I don't want to be your brother and hunt with you.

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  186. Sam meant that they cannot be brothers AND hunters b/c when they are both, they tend to neglect the mission/hunt to save family.



    For instance, Dean's love for Sam caused Dean to plead w/Sam to not complete the trials. Sam's love for Dean caused him to choose to stop the trials w/o completing them. What was the result of that action? The Hell gates were not closed and Kevin was killed. Sam sees that as a problem.


    So, he's not saying that cannot be brothers; he's saying that when they are hunting, they have to put aside their personal feelings and just concentrate on the hunt. Remember in GGY when Dean learned that Sam had been captured by demons. He wanted to go find Sam, but I believe Ellen or those villagers were also looking to him for guidance. Dean was really torn b/c his instincts were calling for him to go and find Sam. He had to make a choice. He chose to stay and help the villagers/Ellen and (I assumed) prayed that Sam would be able to save himself. Sam feels that is the best way to effectively hunt as brothers. The mission/hunt must always come first.



    That's just my guess b/c as we all know Sam never finished his thought, and the dialogue he did get was choppy and oddly worded.

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  187. While I have no doubt that Sam loves his brother (as in I don't think he loves Dean; I know he loves Dean), I very much agree w/you that the writers do not give Sam enough POV. It causes many to speculate, assume, or wank about what he feels, wants, etc. On many occasions, there will be confusion re: Sam. That rarely, if ever, happens w/Dean.

    I think we don't get much Sam POV b/c the writers don't have a handle on the character. Simply put, the writers don't understand Sam and don't know how to write his "voice." At times, I feel they don't care enough about Sam to invest any thought into his arcs/character development, but that's JMO. YMMV.

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  188. Sam is an intelligent fellow who got a full academic scholarship to Stanford. I'm sure he knows how to say, "Dean, we can't keep putting family above the mission. If we're going to hunt together, we have to keep our focus on the goal" or something like that or whatever it is he was trying to say. I don't think it's that difficult actually.



    And the writing in the scene was awful b/c it was clear Glass didn't know what Sam was trying to say either. Does Carver know? Does anyone?

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  189. I don't think Dean had a clue what Sam was talking about. I certainly didn't. Haha!

    It took me about 10 minutes of reflection to get that Sam wasn't saying they couldn't be brothers anymore. That dialogue truly baffled me. I literally went, "Huh" after that scene.

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  190. Who remembers "Bitten?" Haha! I sure don't. Beyond that girl becoming a werewolf and the kids thinking the boys were in an office romance, I don't remember much about that episode.

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  191. If it had been worded as you just put it, I would have been fine, but the truth is, that IS just a guess and speculation as to Sam's real thoughts and motives. But I don't really see any real evidence of it in the show. And even if this is true, it does not excuse the fact that Sam basically laid all the blame at Dean's feet without taking any responsibility for his own actions and choices. And another thing that bugs me is that instead of talking things out and trying to get to the root of their issues ( if that's even possible anymore), Sam gives the same old ultimatum he has always given...play by my rules or I'll walk out on you. It is manipulative and cruel and will NOT help solve the situation(as so many people seem to believe) because it refuses to allow Dean to be Dean.

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  192. I can't stand that episode - replaced GF as my least favorite SPN ever. I only re-watched once when I got my DVDs to see if my impression had changed and it hadn't. I do remember discussion about it and I immediately thought of "BH" when it first aired because that's part of the "lore" that show uses.

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  193. Of COURSE it was! Thanks for the reminder. (I loved it too, except for Kim--mostly; she had occasional good moments.)

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  194. It's hard to write a character who's smarter than you are.

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  195. In the end, I just can't get past the fact that Sam said he wanted to live at the end of last season. If the last thing someone said to me before slipping unconscious was "I want to live," I would go to extraordinary measures to save them.

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