Supernatural’s new season is here. And so is the Gripe Review.
Back in June, when I posted the last review, I was asked if I would write more for season 10. My answer was that I'd watch the first episode and, if I didn't hate it, I would. I watched it, didn't hate it, so here it is.
That’s not to say I loved it either, or even liked it. In fact it was the first time since the early days of season 1 that I watched a season opener of the show and wasn't in anyway excited or emotionally engaged, so I guess that counts.
As off last June I am no longer a member of any official or unofficial SPN forums. I no longer post on IMDB or any other boards, neither do I participate in, or look up, any Tumblr or Twitter tags. I don't associate with any relationships or character fanclubs either. I’m done with that drama, which means if you read something in my review and correlate it with me being a fan of [insert ship/faction name here], or influenced by a certain group of people in the fandom, you're wrong.
The format of the reviews is updated too. Instead of listing gripes I'd be going by story and characters and end with what I thought worked (or didn't) It’s still a Gripe Review with all the biting criticism and unforgiving attention to detail. But the change in format is to refute the incorrect supposition that I’m just listing a bunch of nit-picks, or like to look for flaws. Nothing is farther from the truth, and if this season, the show manages to dig itself out of the pit Carver and his writers threw it in last season, then I will give it and them the credit they are due. But before that here are my thoughts on ‘Black.’
The episode overall: As I said I didn't hate the episode. That’s not much to say though, considering I went into it with the expectations of someone going down their basement to check for a leak. After sitting on it for a few days - especially after watching the explosive premiers of Arrow and Flash - I wondered if the reason so little happened in the episode was because of Supernatural’s significantly lower budget. I understand if they can't afford high speed car chases or massive stadium explosions, but that doesn't excuse the terrible dialogue, or the limited settings, or the uneventful, unoriginal storylines. Literally the entire episode was characters talking, in a few locations. Nothing, not even in the characters' claustrophobic relationship spaces, was a surprise. That, in light of the gargantuan, life changing cliffhanger we had last season, was the true disappointment for me.
Characters
Sam: Of all the characters I liked Sam the best in this episode. It’s unfortunate that he didn't do much other than talking to random, acting-challenged side characters all episode and got captured at the end like an amateur. He also had to spout some awful dialogue like, "I will save my brother, or die trying." But at least he got out of the weird "Brother? What brother?" funk Carver & co. had put him in the last two seasons. He actually showed emotions - puppy dog eyes and all - for someone other than himself, one of the things I had missed about him from the earlier seasons. His chat with Castiel was the highlight of the episode for me, as was his visit to Dean's room and the note. I see improvement for Sam and can't wait to watch more of it. I just hope they won't leave him tied to that chair too long and wait for someone (Dean, God help me,) to save him. Sam is not Princess Peach. He’s an experienced hunter and watching him taken down so easily in so many scenarios just so the writers could regurgitate a tired trope is annoying.
Castiel: I was expecting Castiel to be irredeemably trapped in the b storyline, with no connection or relevance to Sam and Dean, as it is Carver’s favorite way to handle him. I'm glad that wasn't entirely the case. Yet another reason why his phone call to Sam was such a great scene. It not only showed how much these two care for Dean, while being wounded emotionally and physically (Sam’s broken arm and Castiel’s broken everything,) it also tied Castiel's story to the main storyline, and made him a player rather than a tagalong.
Unfortunately that's where the good grace stopped. The b story came like a Tsunami and swept him away into a pointless and confusing romp comprised of driving Mrs. Hannah and waxing Nietzsche with random angel #57 over a campfire.
The problem with Castiel is that his motivations are flip-floppy. Four seasons ago he was the champion of free will. Now he kills angels who refuse to come back to Heaven because of free will. One of show’s done-to-death tropes - Castiel stabbing another angel from behind- serves to make this even more aggravating. I hope there is a story and character arc here that eventually leads to him finding his true self, otherwise I suspect no one on the writing team has any idea about the character's defining characteristics or core values and like last seasons, they write him as they want.
Dean: Dean’s depiction ruined most of the episode for me. My dislike of him began last season, even though he was my favorite character for 5 long years. I may have a long and torturous season 10 ahead of me with a douche wearing my favorite Winchester’s face.
My problem with this incarnation of Dean is that he is a wholly unlikable character. I’m not sure if this has anything to do with his transformation since, as I said, it started well before his turning into a demon. Instead of becoming a badass villain with hints of his true heart, like Soulless Sam and God Castiel had been, he is just a jackass, singing bad karaoke, insulting women, and drinking copious amounts of alcohol. How is this any different from the facade human-Dean used to wear to hide the pain inside? Dean is now a shell of what he used to be. No longer the brave, compassionate warrior wearing the mask of a drunken womanizer, but just a drunken womanizer.
There were a million ways they could have gone about this. Dean and Crowley could have joined a band of criminals, or demons, redefining the law. Dean could have burst into the screen after a mind-blowing stunt, leaving cops, or the mob, or hunters in the dust. He could have stormed into that bar, all rough edges and adrenaline spikes, grabbed the mic and blown everyone's socks off with his vocal prowess (which is completely possible with Jensen's musical talent.) Instead they opted for lame singing, lame dialogue and lame action.
I can’t wrap my head around what he needs to be saved from because the worst he has done is torture people’s ear drums, make a girl cry, and kill two demons in self defense. It's like the show is reluctant to darken him up. Just as the cop in the episode said, we don’t exactly know if he’s a hero or a psychopath because the writers haven’t made up their mind, or are too scared to thread their main character through demon territory, even if it is necessary for his story's development. He is turned into a douche instead which, as I said, begs the question why he needs saving.
Crowley and Hannah: There isn't much I could say about these two other than I’m curious about their roles on the show. Hannah might play a big part in Castiel's story, or she may die in the next episode. Crowley is safer since Mark is now a regular. I saw a parallel between Hannah’s role as Castiel’s companion, and Crowley’s as Dean’s. They seem to be forces pulling them toward their respective home bases. Hannah wants Castiel to be in charge of Heaven, while Crowley wants Dean to join him in ruling Hell. It’s interesting to see where it all leads.
Kudos: There were a few things about the episode I truly liked, and think deserve mentioning. First the phone conversation between Sam and Castiel for reasons I said earlier. It's good to see a shadow of what Team Free Will used to be like, and nice to know that two of its members still reach out toward each other in time of need. Dean's note to Sam was a nice touch too, bringing back a pang of nostalgia from the days the brothers meant so much to each other.
My biggest praise however goes to the subversion of the Dean-saves-Sam trope. When I watched Sam get captured in order to draw Dean out, I groaned. It's been ten years and the writers still cling to and repeat this stale plot point like pre-programmed writing software with a limited bank of scenarios. But then something new happened. Dean didn't rush to Sam's rescue, and for the first time since the episode started, I saw the darkness within him. Before that Demon Dean was not that different from human Dean on a bad bender. But when he ignored the call and went against what we had come to be so used to about him, and against John's conditioning of him, I truly felt the change in him, and it became interesting. I hope they keep going this way, and don’t undermine it in the next episode.
Feel free to post your thoughts in the comments. As always there are no repercussions or censorship for commenting on the contents of the article or the show, even if you tell me I'm out of my mind. A disclaimer too: this entire post is my opinion. I don’t claim to speak for the majority of the viewers (who still keep providing the show with good ratings,) or any part of the SPN fandom.
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I couldn't agree more. That said, unlike you I was really looking forward to the season premiere and seeing Jensen FINALLY take Dean in a different direction.
ReplyDeleteThe episode just fell flat for me in so many ways and I'm sick of all the lame ass angel stuff.
I'm beginning to think that as long as Carver is in charge Supernatural is going to continue to plummet into mediocrity or worse. Considering it was my favorite on-air show for years, I am beyond disappointed. Nice to know I'm not the only viewer who's fed up.
Demon Dean is boring so far
ReplyDeleteDemon Dean falls flat. I was looking forward to Demon Dean's arc since I saw the trailer, but it hugely disappointed me. Just like purgatory. We need more fun NOT him getting some boring conversations with Crowley. I liked soulless Sam and thought Demon Dean would be even more entertaining. But would like to more about Cole though.
Crowley is the new Castiel
Don't really understand what purpose he is actually serving on the show. He was likable, funny, witty in the previous seasons. He is lackluster now. He is existing just for the sake of it. With the actor being promoted to regular, I hope he gets a little more tolerable.
Used to think Castiel can't get any worse
As usual(except in season 8), Castiel turns the most boring character on the show, right now. I know its near impossible given his popularity but can writers put him out his misery and/or may be introduce a better character? Entire angel arc is pointless. They have been dealing with Democracy vs Dictatorship of heaven since season 6 and not yet concluded that.
Sam quest to cure Demon Dean is interesting
Would like to see how they confront each other. I am glad Sam finally got something to do, instead of being a victim of something on the show. But found it extremely stupid that he got captured.
I posted the same on IMDB. Good to know we both are on the same page after a long time.
I have to agree. The S10 premiere was a big disappointment. I expected something thrilling with the Demon Dean storyline. We mostly got drunk, depressed Dean who doesn't seem to be enjoying himself as much as he pretends.
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly sure hell just froze over, because I agree with every word of this review.
ReplyDeleteSee for me its nice to see Sam actually care that Dean died or thought Crowley some how stuck a demon in him. But I think for Dean he wants to howl at the moon and expected no expiration date and what is going to be Crowley not controlling Dean is fact he is trying to control Dean. I like a Dean that does not care what happens to Sam but still threatens the guy holding him. Its like he is trying to be a hero and its like still do his job but also enjoy life. And he is not able to do that right now as regular Dean. I mean Crowley will end up dead with either Dean killing him or Sam. And yes like I said nice to see Sam wanting to find his dead brother but its like it took Dean dying for Sam to care. To me yes bad writing by the writers who created a Sam who didn't give to figs about Dean. I mean the brothers need to talk about the wants but right now Dean wants to have fun and I found Demon Dean enjoyable I mean you can see Dean coming through because he can't stop who he is naturally a hunter. And yes running from that doesn't stop you from trying to protect the girl but taking to far. Or sleeping around and then saying something snarky back to the girl you like. And then when Sam gets in the picture you get drunk and know deep down he is your responsibility but like Sam told Dean to let go seems Sam can't do that so Crowley basically is doing all the wrong things to make Dean his buddy. Cas and Hannah BORING; Cas and Sam talking about missing Dean nice. I want Dean and Cas back talking about stuff again I like them better sorry. But the brothers need to mend also and hopefully this season they have a lot of mending and dealing with the mark and I think the beginning show was start of bigger and better things and thanks for the gripe review always enjoy reading :)
ReplyDeleteSam is the only Likable character in season 10 premiere.
ReplyDeleteI thought so too. The reason behind it IMO is that he was the only character with a motive: saving his brother. It's unclear what Dean's motive is at this point and Castiel says something (wants to help save Dean, get back his grace) then goes off and does something else terribly boring and irrelevant.
Castiel turns the most boring character on the show, right now. I know its near impossible given his popularity but can writers put him out his misery and/or may be introduce a better character?
I have a suspicion that Castiel's pointless b storyline existence on the show has to do with the show runner trying to please the entire scope of fandom. There are his fans (of which I used to be one, his old self that is) who want him on the show, and his haters who want him gone. So Carver might have come up with a genius idea in his own head to keep him on the show but away from the brothers to please both camps.
Except now nobody is pleased and Castiel has become a boring third wheel more than ever. Even I wouldn't complain if they just took him out of the field if they won't let him play the game.
I am glad Sam finally got something to do, instead of being a victim of something on the show.
I hope they come up with something more innovative for his rescue that Dean simply taking two seconds out of his busy schedule and making a detour to kick Cole's ass. That would make Sam look bad and put him at a disadvantage in their confrontation. I want Sam to have the upper hand not be the damsel who just got rescued.
Thanks, and I assure, you hell is ok. With The Gripe Review I try to take the side of the characters against OOC writing and bad storytelling, in as much a nonpartisan manner as possible. I'm usually pleased when many fans agree with it.
ReplyDeleteI want Dean and Cas back talking about stuff again I like them better sorry.
ReplyDeleteI want that too but I don't dare say that anymore in the fandom because people are quick to put a label on you before you could even finish your sentence. Cas has no purpose on the show without his connection to Sam and Dean. He used to have great chemistry with Dean and his phone conversation with Sam this episode proved he has the potential to have chemistry with Sam so I don't have the slightest idea why they didn't put them together in a storyline that involved them going and searching for Dean.
I think the beginning show was start of bigger and better things and thanks for the gripe review always enjoy reading :)
Let's hope so, and you are welcome. :)
I think the phone conversation spoke volumes I felt bad for Cas because he thought Sam was dropping him for what happened with the demon but sounds like there is more to that which hopefully see in flashback. But I liked also how they both felt sad that Dean was gone. I just wish more research from the both of them on the mark. I mean for Cas knowing about it how would he not know what would happen to Dean? And isn't there any research because the dude with the blade in S8 seem to know that Dean needed the blade for the mark to work. So how would no one know that if you died and with the blade the mark would turn you into demon.
ReplyDeleteI think next weeks eps looks interesting. So I am hopeful for the season to really start rocking.
Sam is the only Likable character in season 10 premiere.
ReplyDeleteI thought so too. The reason behind it IMO is that he was the only character with a motive: saving his brother. It's unclear what Dean's motive is at this point and Castiel says something (wants to help save Dean, get back his grace) then goes off and does something else terribly boring and irrelevant.
Castiel turns the most boring character on the show, right now. I know its near impossible given his popularity but can writers put him out his misery and/or may be introduce a better character?
I have a suspicion that Castiel's pointless b storyline existence on the show has to do with the show runner trying to please the entire scope of fandom. There are his fans (of which I used to be one, his old self that is) who want him on the show, and his haters who want him gone. So Carver might have come up with a genius idea in his own head to keep him on the show but away from the brothers to please both camps.
Except now nobody is pleased and Castiel has become a boring third wheel more than ever. Even I wouldn't complain if they just took him out of the field if they won't let him play the game.
I am glad Sam finally got something to do, instead of being a victim of something on the show.
I hope they come up with something more innovative for his rescue that Dean simply taking two seconds out of his busy schedule and making a detour to kick Cole's ass. That would make Sam look bad and put him at a disadvantage in their confrontation. I want Sam to have the upper hand not be the damsel who just got rescued.
More or less agree with the whole review. I found the whole episode quite underwhelming - which is a first for me as far as Supernatural premieres go.
ReplyDeleteSince you focused more on characters, I'll give my 2 cents about storylines.
1. If you have to keep Cas around for the fans, atleast give him a decent storyline instead of rehashing old ones. Angels have been swinging back and forth on the free-will issue for 5-6 seasons now and they are all still swinging. Better make Cas a human and shut the gates of heaven once and for all.
2. There are two things Supernatural does well in its premieres - setup an issue or a conflict between the brothers and establish a season long big world-changing threat. They didn't do the latter here. Cole is a guy with a grudge who doesn't seem aware of what the Winchesters actually do. That guy fails to impress.
3. I was expecting more action from Demon-Dean. Not just violence action but all sorts of action. So far - other than not saving Sam - he hasn't said or done anything that the regular Dean wouldn't. You are right - the writers are too afraid of making the character dark and having him lose sympathy. What they probably don't realize is that a good writer can make him dark and sympathetic at the same time. What about having him singing in a Demon bar and killing off all the other patrons when they boo him. Even his having fun was depressing. It seemed like the old Dean's idea of having fun - something to temporarily take your mind off how crappy everything else is. I'd have liked to see him have some real fun.
That's not due to Jensen's acting - mind you - but more due to how the whole thing was written and edited. The interspersed shots of Dean drinking and drunk-singing with a sad song and then asking a stranger to go away with him and then insulting himself and her at the same time - these are not actions of someone truly enjoying himself. I was expecting that the angsty self-loathing integral to his character would go away now that he is a demon, but that doesn't seem like it.
Sorry, that's me. I got lazy and got my logins mixed up.
ReplyDeleteAre we just sick of it now the Crap Carver is feeding us a am like you Fed up with it that I did not even watch the Ep I have it DVR but I do not know if I want too Watch it or not.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your assessment of Castiel. I thought he'd side with Daniel - because I thought he was all about free-will now. It doesn't make sense to me that'd he's now side with someone like Hannah who thinks all the angels should just follow orders.
ReplyDeleteWow, I guess I must be one of the few Dean fans who come here because this seems to be Sam fan haven. Saying that, it will be no surprise to say that I don't agree much with your article.
ReplyDeleteSam wasn't the best character for me simply because after 9 years of Sam trying to ditch Dean, of Sam insulting Dean, of Sam not looking for Dean, Carver's very obvious effort in trying to make Sam look good by showing that Sam does care seems, for me, too little too late. Not to mention after that awful speech in The Purge, again Sam skates free because he's shown to "care" about Dean now. Pft. Sam will care about Dean while Dean is with someone else, but once Sam has Dean under his thumb again, I'm sure Sam will go back to his usual self-entitled princess attitude and I'm sure we can expect Dean to be forever grateful to Sam while Sam has done nothing but bitch at Dean for Dean saving him. That is if Sam even bothers to remember all the times and all the things Dean has done for him.
I loved the Bitch/Jerk from DemonDean and Crowley and I loved Crowley's reference to Sam and hitting dogs which is why Sam is now looking for Dean. Also that it is true, Sam doesn't want Dean, but can't stand when Dean is with someone else. Talk about jealousy.
My great wish is for the show to keep Dean and Crowley together, they make a much more interesting team.
As for Sam, again, I can't see any sorrow, but then again, my view of JP's acting isn't as complimentary as yours. But miles vary.
I found the angel story to be extremely boring, with no character to uplift Cas as the character of Dean does. Too bad the show is so nervous about putting Dean and Cas together again, that nasty chemistry being the cause of all the sorrow for Sam, that we will never have the glory days of Dean and Cas being good friends and brothers.
So, my view? The episode could have used less Cas and Hannah, less Sam and Sam and Cole, and more Demon Dean. Jensen, for me anyways, lifted this episode from the borefest that it would have been without Dean and without Dean and Crowley.
establish a season long big world-changing threat. They didn't do the latter here.
ReplyDeleteOn and off throughout the seasons Carver and his team have fallen back on the idea that brotherly conflict is enough as a storyline. We had to deal with Gadreel possessing Sam and the fallout of Dean keeping it a secret for a good part of season 9 before they got to the MoC story.
What they probably don't realize is that a good writer can make him dark and sympathetic at the same time.
My thought exactly. And we have had dark Dean written well before. Human Dean torturing Alistair in 'On the Head of the Pin' was much more menacing and multilayerd than Demon Dean is.
Even his having fun was depressing. It seemed like the old Dean's idea of having fun - something to temporarily take your mind off how crappy everything else is..
I was willing to go with even that if they showed or implied the reasons behind it (missing Sam, having to deal with the fact that he's now the thing he used to hunt) and not made it so confusing. I couldn't figure out if Demon Dean was depressed and hiding it behind a douchey facade or if he was enjoying himself. It's the worst when your audience doesn't know what story you are telling.
I don't think any of the characters were well written this episode except maybe Crowley. If you make him snarky his character always works so not much credit to Carver (because it's not that hard to write him compared to the others).
ReplyDeleteI agree Dean felt a lot like the same person (except a bit darker and more of a jerk).
I felt the same watching the episode. I wasn't into it, wasn't involved. It's a popcorn show for me now. Something to watch and to see the end. I'm not into the fandom anymore either - the last 2 years I've withdrawn.
It happened because I lost interest in the show, not necessarily the fandom because I had some safe havens where little to no arguing ever happened and it was civil and no overly hate of main/regular characters (though a lot of my online friends stopped watching the show the last couple years or disappeared from the online community so that affected me too).
I loved discussing the show when I first joined in online during Season 4 and 5, was crazy about it. Now I've moved onto other shows (I am majorly involved in the Dominion Twitter Fandom).
I sometimes tweet pics of photos from past seasons when I loved Supernatural and the characters made more sense, but not much else.
I agree with you on the Dean/Cas part. Unfortunately I've accepted that that ship has sailed (or sunk if you prefer a more accurate term) based on where and how their story developed. Carver and his writers split them so far apart there's now an ocean between them. I don't see a snowball's chance in hell for the glory days of Dean and Cas as friends to ever come back. It wouldn't surprise me however if one day they give Dean a line like, "Cas? Who's Cas?"
ReplyDeleteAs for Sam, I know emotions are high on the topic of him abandoning Dean for most of season 8 & 9. Trust me I wasn't happy about that either. But I'm judging this season based on its own. It's refreshing to watch Sam not be the princess for once and after the horrifying second part of season 8 when they stripped him off his personality entirely and made him into a male version of Mary Sue, I cheer every time I see shades of old Sammy back.
Dean and Crowley so far are as boring to me as Castiel and Hannah. I stand by my conviction that these three characters, Sam, Dean and Cas, are the best when they are together. Separating them and trying to give one's shirt to someone else (Sam's to Crowley in this case) has never worked for the show.
I find it interesting that you call this place a Sam fan haven considering Sam fans don't much like me because according to them I'm too anti-Sam and pro-Dean/Castiel. :)
I wasn't expecting much after the promos for the episode came out.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
ReplyDelete"You are right - the writers are too afraid of making the character dark and having him lose sympathy. What they probably don't realize is that a good writer can make him dark and sympathetic at the same time."
ReplyDeleteAmazing analysis. This show , be it with Sam in season 4, Castiel in season 6 or with Dean in season 10, never dared to completely venture into the darker side or rather irredeemable version of these characters. That can be great fun especially when the something good is to be achieved by the character-gone-dark. Only then audience can feel sorry rather than going all ballistic over the character.
Your story is similar to mine. I joined the online fandom after season 5, made friends and had fun for 5 years. Last summer however - after comments from the cast and crew that lacked appreciation and respect toward the love and hard work groups of fans dedicated to the show - I stopped participating. Now I watch the show with the eyes of a critic, like Ebert who watched and reviewed all movies regardless of how emotionally attached he was. It might be a good thing too because it helps me to stay neutral toward storylines and relationships on the show.
ReplyDeleteThe other upside of it is that I have a lot more free time to spend on things instead of chat online, like writing these reviews. ;P
Thank you for putting in words what I felt watching this boring season premiere. Nothing happened!! I think the key word here is JOKE.
ReplyDeleteDemon Dean is a JOKE, and not a good one. I keep reading people saying "OMG he's so funny" and I ask myself: "How?". Sam being tied up again after 234915 times is a JOKE. Castiel's storyline so far is a JOKE. Crowley trying to be Sam is a JOKE.
Sam was indeed the best character of the episode and like you, I really liked the phone conversation between him and Castiel. Instead of putting Castiel in a lame story, they should explore more the angel relationship with Sam, They should have showed the two searching for Dean together.
If I judged you wrong, I apologize, but I feel that anyone who doesn't seem to like Dean because Dean isn't being all about Sam a Sam fan.
ReplyDeleteDean is a demon and I find his sort of demon to be quite refreshing from the usual boring demons. I like that Dean has his own personality. Is he a douche? Well, he's a demon, but somewhere in there, as Crowley stated, is a soul that's been twisted very darkly, so yes, he's not going to be the good guy for a while.
I personally hate it that the show has shown Dean to be nothing more than Sam's faithful servant for years, and this new Dean, the one that isn't all about Sam and Sam's never ending problems is more than refreshing, it's exhilarating. I want a Dean that isn't going to run to Sam every time Sam has a broken nail.
Last season Dean was also great because for once, he actually wasn't all about Sam. As for Sam, he sure could use some maturity and if I had any hope that Dean turning into a demon would finally cause Sam to grow up, I'd be happy. But sadly, I fear that Demon Dean is only a tool for Carver to use to undo his mistake of Sam not looking for Dean in season 8.
I would love for Dean to have his own hero's journey, but once again, I don't think this is what Carver is aiming for and having douche Dean, and writers who state they dislike Dean now and how great Sam is, I feel, gives Carver exactly what he's aiming for; fans to like Sam better than Dean. Not that I think that will happen, but articles like yours sure must make him feel proud.
If you are truly a Dean fan, and not a Dean who is only about Sam fan, then I apologize, otherwise, my view stands firm.
Castiel went there to be the "voice of reason" and Daniel seemed really mellow. But Hannah and Dinah (?) pulled out the angel blades and got VIOLENT. And the guys were like, honey, honey, CALM DOWN, honey.
ReplyDeleteI was unsure of angel dynamics -- had the two pair-bonded as more than just friends?
You see, in the episode in which Castiel kills Bartholomew, I was pissed Castiel didn't attack Bart to stop him from killing pacifist angel. I thought that "defense of another" would be a MUCH better reason to kill (and here he killed to protect Hannah -- but I still think she pushed the fight herself) than "saving his own life" so for me this is unreconcilable behavior in the writing.
I think Sam showed great care for his brother in Season 1 (Faith and Devils' Trap) and in Season 3, the whole season, when he KNEW Dean was going to Hell for him. I think the dynamic was blown up when Dean came back from the dead and Ruby had her claws in Sam. I just watched Lazarus Rising and the idea that within FIVE minutes of Dean revealing himself as alive to Sam he was lying that he was bunking with Kristy NOT Ruby, no Ruby here, no no no just blows me away. He lied he lied to his face he LIED TO HIS FACE. I think the Sam of earlier seasons, even if he was being a jerk to Dean in some ways showed such love for his brother; not in Dean's sometimes hysterical gotta save sammy gotta save sammy schtick. I don't think they ever really came back from Sam choosing Ruby over Dean at the end of season 4, I think they have tried and tried, but in the end, Dean doesn't trust Sam and as a result (or on his own) Sam doesn't really want to be around Dean.
ReplyDeleteTHIS plot of "Sam looking" in a way reminds me of Sam's need to do things "Dad's way" after John died; when Dean pointed out that Sam picked a fight with John the last time he saw him I thought that really stung. So Sam is doing literally everything he can think of here to get his brother back; whether the relationship will actually be better or WRITTEN better is unsure to me.
Jared should get an award based on "tied to a chair" acting and we should ALL begin each episode with a bottle of some libation and drink to his Tied to a Chair meme.
ReplyDeleteSomebody said that one time Jared was tied to a chair "struggling" to get loose and the CHAIR BROKE because dude is big and strong and for the most part he is just Pretending to strain to get out of the chair and THAT my friend is ACTING. I wish the broken chair had been in some gag reel.
I agree with season 1, but will disagree with season 3, since Sam seemed more concerned about being left behind in this crappy world while Dean went to party in hell. I also feel that Sam was more about himself and Ruby in season 3 than he was about Dean.
ReplyDeleteSam hasn't been honest with Dean since season 3 either, and now I'm supposed to believe that Sam cares about Dean. Not going to work. Crowley is right, Sam doesn't care about Dean himself, he's just pissed that Dean is with someone else, just like Sam was pissed when Dean was with Benny. Sam really can't stand it when Dean isn't all about him, yet when Dean is, all Sam does is bitch and push Dean away. That's the show that's been playing for the last 9 years, and that's why I'm having a real hard time thinking that Sam really cares, because once Sam "saves" Dean, I'm sure he will have Dean back to where Sam wants him, under his thumb and being all about Sam.
The brotherly bond is a joke because Dean is the only one that is supposed to love Sam, while Sam gets to love himself and tell Dean off and treat Dean like crap, but hey, as long as Dean acts like a doormat, which makes Sam happy, then it's all good with some fans. Not this one though, and not a lot of other fans that Carver and Singer ignore in order to give the few fans what they want, which seems to be in agreement with what Carver and Singer want, the status quo. Sam being the center of Dean's world, and Dean being nothing more than Sam's nursemaid.
Dean finally has his own arc, his own story that's not all about Sam, so it's no surprise that most Sam fans and Dean who is all about Sam, hate it. But for me, while not the best arc they could give Dean, is still a hell of a lot better than Dean Cleaver that Carver had in the second half of season 8.
Maybe they were worried about the Destiel fans whining?
ReplyDeleteWays Demon Dean could've been done better (without adding anything new to the episode):
ReplyDelete1. Let Jensen stretch his "acting crazy" muscle - remember the shape-shifter Dean in "Skin"? I wanted to see that face on the screen when he was attacking the waitress' boyfriend. Instead, we got a reaction shot of Crowley and the Waitress and I have no idea what she was feeling - mildly disturbed? Mildly aroused? Mildly confused?
2. Let Dean eat more than he drinks. Human Dean ate to have fun and he drank to forget his troubles. Demon Dean shouldn't have any troubles to forget, so we should see more or pies and burgers and less of scotch.
3. Let him face a whole bunch of demons at once. Human Dean could fight and kill three demons at once without the Mark of Cain. Demon Dean should've been able to take on a whole bar full of them. If its the logistics of the action scene you are worried about, show him sitting by idly kicking a severed head like Vampire Dean. Let him be more badass than normal Dean.
4. Let's not show that he cares about the waitress at all. Telling her not to get attached? He should simply forget her name. Losing concentration when her boyfriend starts harassing her? Try another way to have them cross paths. Are we supposed to believe that he had that much concern for the waitress and none at all for Sam?
5. Cut out all the depressed Dean hallmarks - the sad songs, drinking montage, wanting to get away, having low opinion of himself. If you want to show him having fun, let the guy have some actual fun.
6. How about letting him show a few actual demonic characteristics - scaring people at the bar by flicking his eyes black or winning at foosball by using telekinesis. You promised us demon Dean, so give us demon Dean - not almost-about-to-be-but-not-quite-there-yet-demon Dean.
Any other ideas?
Demon Dean was the BEST thing about this episode, it's just a shame that after all this waiting there was only about 15 minutes of it. This is what the show has been promoting all summer and yet there was so little time spent with Dean himself. Maybe the angels could have waited until episode 2 at least, and Cas could have spent the season premier helping Sam.
ReplyDeleteOh and this review just confirms that nobody here at Spoiler TV actually likes Dean!
ReplyDeletePretty much completely agree Tessa. The episode was neither good nor horrible. It was mostly just 'there'. It's a feeling that many have about the premiere.
ReplyDeleteA few things to note though; Dean will get darker in the next episode and again the third episode as spoilers and clips have shown this significantly. Also Dean will be cured most likely by the end of episode 3 as spoilers have greatly suggested and will no longer be a Demon (episode 4 is a werewolf episode with the blond girl from Bitten from season 8 returning). He will however, still bare the Mark of Cain which will be dealt with at a later time.
The throwaway angel subplot certainly got a groan out of me. Nothing at all interesting about the angels. At all. In fact I don't think they could make them any more boring then they are. Unfortunately Hannah will be around for awhile. Spoilers talk about a relationship between her and Castiel among other things. You know, they got to shoehorn angel stuff into the story and keep Castiel separate from the boys the entire season. Why? I have no clue why this is an absolute necessity but Carver and the writers are forcing both the angels and the separation of the boys and Castiel. Spoilers suggest that it will be like that the entire season again too.
I wondered about the budget too. This premiere felt really cheap for a show that already has felt really cheap since the Kripke years. Did season 10 even get a worse budget the 8/9 already had? If so why not just end the show? It's gotten to the point where they can't show or do anything cool in the show anymore. I really hope episode 2 and beyond will have more action in it but the premiere did feel really really cheap which is a huge disappointment. It's possible the budget wasn't cut and that they are trying to save some money for the 200th episode but who knows for sure!?
I kind of had some hopes for season 10 and I'm still hoping it will be better then 8/9 but I'm not holding my breath. Not sure how I feel about the generic hunter guy yet. Too early to tell and to early to write him off just yet. A good writer could give his character some personality and make him more interesting.
I'm getting to the point where Crowley and Castiel should just be removed from the show. Loved both characters but the writers can't fit them into the show anymore at all which is why the entire show feels so disconnected with forced angel/demon subplots. Castiel as a human hunter was brief but a LOT more fun and interesting in the first half of season 9. A human, cured hunter Crowley could have even been more fun then what we are probably going to get this year. Congrats goes out to Carver and Co. for ruining two of TV's best characters with garbage writing and direction.
Last but not least; After seeing the Men of Letters Blu-Ray content from the season 9 stuff, I'm still completely in shock as to why they are not doing pretty much anything interesting with such amazing mythology. Why no spinoff series with crossover episodes to the main series? Why do they intentionally bypass amazing ideas, stories and concepts for cheap drama and lackluster angel stories? It's most certainly intentional at this point but why?
Dean's scenes were very easily the best of the entire episode and there clearly were not enough of him in it. Jensen's subtle portrayal of a twisted version of Dean was spot on and absolutely perfect. If the episode lacked in any way, it was the slow and boring angels and Cole stories. Other than that, the episode was entertaining, exciting and perfect. Loved watching Sam finally fighting for his brother (all except the "monster" comment). Loved watching Crowley trying to secure his hold over Dean without any luck and loved watching Dean showing us why we can't buy the lovable karaoke antics when he delivered his speech to Cole at the end. The writer of this article is obviously much biased against either Dean or Jensen or both.
ReplyDeleteI assure you I'm anything but a Sam fan. When I was active in fandom I was known as a Castiel fan and supporter of Dean and Cas' relationship. The reason you see Sam positive comments in this review is because I honestly thought he was written the best in the episode. Had I been writing this review for the season 8 premier it sure would have had a different tone.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly I have nothing against Dean the character, just his current depiction. By no means is that because he's not all about Sam. I dislike the toxic codependency of the brothers. Had you read the review to the end you would see, in the kudos part, that I believe Dean not rushing to Sam's rescue was the best part of Dean's story. I want Dean to be his own character with his own storyline but right now he has no storyline other than that he is a demon. The same deal is handed to Castiel, who has no storyline other than that he's an angel. Both of them are boring and both of them are badly written and for me, a known Dean & Cas fan who used to watch the show just for their chemistry, that's a tough thing to say.
"It's most certainly intentional at this point but why?"
ReplyDelete- I think they just meet up once a week, throwing a big party while waiting for the ratings, then all cheering and celebrating, saying, "Ha, look at that! Still 2.49 million watching our crap!" =)
Thanks for the info. As mentioned, I've been away from fandom for the past several months so I'm completely spoiler free. It's actually a unique experience watching an episode without knowing what's going to happen. I hope they do a better job at portraying Dean's dark side in the upcoming episodes, though I'm a little torn about him being cured so quickly. If he's already going to be human by episode 4 it won't give them much time to explore his demon personality.
ReplyDeleteWhy do they intentionally bypass amazing ideas, stories and concepts for cheap drama and lackluster angel stories? It's most certainly intentional at this point but why?
If I had a dime for every time I asked this question since season 1: Sam as the boy king, Dean as the righteous man, Castiel's multiple resurrections, Castiel as God, Purgatory, Naomi's plans for the Winchesters, fallen angels, the Men of Letters... just a few storylines that had potential and were dropped along the way for more run of the mill stuff. :(
I like your interpretation of Dean in this episode, except if it were that clear so many people wouldn't have been unhappy with it. Dean's bad karaoke, bad treatment of others could have been a smoke screen to hide the deeper darkness inside. Except his karaoke personality was not 'lovable' in any way, and there was no conceivable reason provided by the show as to why he would want to hide his true nature.
ReplyDeleteThe writer of this article is obviously much biased against either Dean or Jensen or both.
This is why I don't participate in the fandom anymore. Just because I'm critical of the way a character is portrayed, or a storyline is written, I must be against some character or actor. Funny how no one accuses me of hating Misha/Castiel since I didn't have anything nice to say about him either.
As always love your comment Martin. You pretty much covered all the points I missed, and expanded on some I mentioned.
ReplyDeleteI'm as furious as you about the show wasting Jensen's massive acting talent on a bad script. Skinwalker Dean, Leviathan Dean, even human Dean when he donned his torturer-from-hell garb was much more chilling that the Dean we saw in this episode. It's a testament of how much they failed that I can't tell whether he was depressed, carefree, or mad at everything. His behavior left me confused. This in particular: Are we supposed to believe that he had that much concern for the waitress and none at all for Sam?speaks volumes. He worries about the woman getting beaten by the boyfriend but not enough to not piss all over her feelings after he just slept with her? Let's assume he wants to push he away. As the waitress said herself he could have said it in a hundred better ways and she would have been gone, or he could have just not called her. But maybe it's because he's a demon and enjoys hurting her. Then why the heck would he rescue her from the guy?
This is what happens when writers don't draw character profiles, or throw away the one from earlier seasons.
Thanks for saying it this way. I could not put into words how I felt. Gosh, I liked the episode so much more than Tessa Marie. I respect her feelings and how she expressed them. But I enjoyed THIS guy a lot, I also enjoyed that Sam's "controls" on Dean (put the First Blade down Dean, drop it) aren't working. IF Dean gets out of this it'll be because DEAN can control it.
ReplyDeleteI personally hate it that the show has shown Dean to be nothing more than Sam's faithful servant for years, and this new Dean, the one that isn't all about Sam and Sam's never ending problems is more than refreshing, it's exhilarating. I want a Dean that isn't going to run to Sam every time Sam has a broken nail.
ReplyDeleteTrust me I'm right there with you. It's why I said the best part of Demon Dean was when he refused to go after Sam and that I hope they don't debunk it in next episode. It was really tough for me sitting through the second half of season 8 when the show gave the trials to Sam and Dean was reduced to his caretaker.
Carver and his writers sadly seem to know very little about what made these characters great. In Dean's case, what I always loved about him was how he hid all his suffering behind a fake playboy disguise. I never liked his facade, I liked the man inside. Carver however seem to think Dean is that facade and has deprived him of his precious core. He's doing an equally terrible job with Sam and especially with Castiel. Unfortunately the ratings of the show are good which means he won't be obligated to improve anything anytime soon.
If you are truly a Dean fan, and not a Dean who is only about Sam fan.
I was a Dean as a friend of Castiel fan, to be specific. Since Dean and Castiel no longer even talk on the show I left that hat behind. But I reassure you, I was never a Dean about Sam fan. There might be nothing on the show I despise more than Dean playing errand boy to Sam.
Well, at least, Dean was the third character out of the main three, to be "ruined." Sam's ruination was started in Season 4 and was completed in Season 8 and Casitel was ruined in Seasons 6 and 7.
ReplyDeleteI want to second that bit about Dean and Castiel. They wrote a very believable plot about an angel who of course had his whole focus on God; then he transferred that focus to Dean. He exists for the fallible driven Dean. If God came back it would be an interesting fight for Castiel's affections. I love that.
ReplyDeleteThey wrote again and again a Castiel who loved Dean in his whole being. They wrote a Dean only could respond to that physically. Dean "played" somebody who responded. Oh yes indeedy. He depended on Castiel. And then last year and this year they can't put the two of them in the same room? THAT bugs the hell out of me.
They didn't have to EVER write it as physical love. An angel may not be able to express himself that way. But Christ Jesus on HIS CROSS they should not have written LOVE capital L O V E and then just written it "never mind." That offends me as a fan. I am not an idiot. They don't have to write a "gay love" into the show. Angelic love, however, can be portrayed as anything they could've thought it could be.
Oh, I am just letting myself getting angry here.
Tessa, Supernatural is a Warner Brothers show. I guess I should look it up, but are Arrow/Flash from a richer production company? I didn't watch the other two shows, but the commercials look like those shows have regular network production values. Is that the issue here?
ReplyDeleteYou have said that this was an uninspired season premier (is that the right word or an I putting words in your keypad?) and it led me to think about what season premiers I liked: In My Time of Dying and Lazarus Rising and I Think I Am Going To Like It Here are my tops. I LOVED last year's premier. This one was better than Seasons 3, 6, 7 and 8. I love the characters so much that even a "not top" premier really bothers. I have sat thru those before (season 3 was the first crappy one I saw I think).
Things are always different, aren't they? Somebody else online said they thought they were re-using plots. I think this one IS different just because it is Dean. I have to say I am in for the long haul (boy, you can quote me: but I did not like Season 5, various episodes YES but the thru-line of season 5 pissed me off).
I hadn't read the comments before I posted my comment, Tessa. While I agree that the Dean/Crowley scenes were the best in the episode, I want to say I, too, resent when commenters go for the "hater" or "bias" labels when discussing the episode. Discussion is discussion and has nothing to do with whether one favors a character or not. It's childish to throw comments like that out there.
ReplyDeleteI would add that I feel JA probably had a lot to do with how Demon Dean is being portrayed. I think he wants to protect Dean's character, and I am glad if that is the case. I want to see hints of the real Dean there, and I certainly don't want the character ruined, as I felt Sam's was in S6, S7, S8 and S9. And the other thing I most assuredly DO NOT WANT is a poached Soulless Sam story. I do think we'll see Dean do a little worse 'bad' things in the next episode or two, and then the Demon Dean story is over. I am hoping that the MoC is more than Dean angsting the rest of the season over something he did as a demon.
Boy, I don't agree but DO agree that people can see things differently.
ReplyDeleteMystery Spot in Season 3 had an increasingly desperate Sam noisily going nuts. When Ruby "died" (or was kicked out of her vessel by Lillith in No Rest for the Wicked) Sam stepped OVER Ruby's meatsuit to get to Dean and hold him. Not even a glance at Ruby.
But I DO agree that Sam had a secondary agenda here: he didn't want to be alone in this world in which he realized he was cursed. Did you notice how EVERY demon (and also Ruby) Sam met in Season 3 (like the priest in Sin City) kept mentioning "sloppy needy Dean" and that "everybody knows you're the brains of the outfit, Sam" in order to make Sam feel removed from the brother who was "deserting" him. If I wanted to rewatch season 3 and drink EVERY time a demon threw shade on Dean and his "issues" to Sam I would be drunk before midseason hiatus. Hey, would you like to email me and set it up? I got about 2 bottles of wine I could kill.
WELL if Dean just let Sam Die at the end of season 2 this bullshit would have never happen.
ReplyDeletewell I am sick and tried of all the Dean fan sites I go too. Can't people just like the show and not talk about hate one person and love the other I am sick of it.
ReplyDeleteI didn't watch the other two shows, but the commercials look like those shows have regular network production values. Is that the issue here?
ReplyDeleteThose shows definitely have bigger production values than SPN, understandably so because a) they are part of the DC verse which has fans who hold CW/Warner Brothers accountable for treating their favorite universe well, and b) they are newer and fresher.
The fact that Supernatural is still on is a miracle in itself. Generally networks end genre shows beyond 5 seasons. So it's not a surprise that the CW wouldn't want to spend that much money on Supernatural. It keeps it going on minimum fuel because it still, incredibly, brings in an audience, but won't spend a dime on it more than absolute bare bone necessary.
I love the characters so much that even a "not top" premier really bothers.
And this is why the show keeps going. It doesn't bleed old viewers so much that the new ones can't replace them. We're all so engaged with the characters that we even sit through mediocre episodes, just to watch them and see what will happen.
Somebody else online said they thought they were re-using plots.
Let me see: Dean drinking at a bar and sleeping with a random woman, Sam threatening a CRD to save Dean, Castiel stabbing an innocent angel and feeling bad about it, Sam getting captured and tied to a chair... have I missed anything?
I agree too but for me someone told me that Sam went heaven when he died I do not know because the writers F-ed up that to and If Dean knew that why would he rip Sam from there just so Dean can go too hell and Have Sam go Crazy and lose everything that he loved and the only person too take care of him is Ruby I just do not know why its hard show man.
ReplyDeleteHey the Ruined Dean along time ago so that's nothing new.
ReplyDeleteAmen to all of this.
ReplyDeleteAnd then last year and this year they can't put the two of them in the same room? THAT bugs the hell out of me.
I'm not into behind the scene conspiracies and the likes but something tells me they realized the massive popularity of that particular relationship and reacted. They are not the first who had to deal with something like that. Showrunners and creators have faced fan enthusiasm for decades and each have a different way of responding to it. Some, like the creators of Hannibal and Arrow get excited and support it, some like Russel T. Davis (creator of Torchwood) get mad and tell fans to get lost. These guys' solution I guess was to separate the characters as much as possible to crush every hope and interest the fans might have in their relationship, so that they don't feel pressured to please them.
They didn't have to EVER write it as physical love. An angel may not be able to express himself that way.
This is my opinion too. Cas loved Dean's soul and as you said, in the absence of God, he replaced Dean's approval with that of Him. It was a remarkable story that sadly the new showrunners were incapable of developing further so they wasted it.
Oh, I am just letting myself getting angry here.
Which is why I left the fandom. Got tired of getting angry over things I had no control over.
I agree with all of both Martin and your points here.
ReplyDeletePlease don't feel pressured about disagreeing with me. There's nothing wrong with that. This is a space for everyone to speak their opinion freely about the episode, positive or negative. Just because it's The Gripe Review doesn't mean everyone here hates the show. I myself loved parts of the episode, I just felt very disappointed in Demon Dean and Castiel. They could have had such better representations. If you want to elaborate on why you thought the episode was good please go ahead. I'd love to read it.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I don't think Dean has his own arc this year. I think he's just a plot device to tell the other three leads' story. I don't think the MoC thing will go much of anywhere, because at this point in the season (by that I mean the filming of nine episodes), I don't think the writers know what they are going to do about it yet.
ReplyDeleteTessa is right. The mytharc is, once again, the Winchesters' problems with a Cas problem thrown in. There may be some story for Crowley out there, given all the secretiveness about that recurring witch that will be showing up. I'm not sure about that one yet.
I started watching this show with the Pilot and have never missed a live airing. Got involved in the online forums at the beginning of S4 and quit cold following the S9 finale. There's just nothing interesting to talk about anymore. I still watch for JA's performances and will enjoy him as long as the show lasts, but I can't stand the hack writing and the teenage angsty stuff. Not one of these writers have a clue about the original two characters, and that's not going to change. The Winchesters are cardboard cutouts of what they once were, and that is very sad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what you said. This has to be the most boring season premiere ever. Cheesy dialogue and lots ooc moments, and let' not talk about the clunky writing.
ReplyDeleteDemon-Dean was a big disappointment, I expected something along the lines of Godstiel, but all I got was a useless douchie frat boy.Thank you, but no thanks.
I'm not a good critic, just good at pointing out what I don't like.
ReplyDeleteI'm busy with other fandoms/shows so I really haven't gained any free time. I also still am writing a Supernatural fanfic.
JA is an expert in portraying Dean. He's played the character for 10 years after all. Unfortunately he can only go so far in protecting the character and when the writers give him a script that requires Dean to embarrass himself in front of a bar full of yahoos he can't say no.
ReplyDeleteStill he has given us delicious dark Dean before so I still have hope that the douche will go away next episode and we'll see something like vampire Dean or purgatory Dean.
Well this one feels fresh to me. I like that this time it is DEAN who is "different" and I would like it if they "cured" him BUT he has to be very careful when he kills somebody or something, if he gets ANGRY he could turn back into a demon-demon.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, we really should all think of some way to honor Sam's chair-fu just because he is the MASTER of chair-fu. Let Dean handle the Kung-fu (oh what is that Israeli martial art they were taught at the beginning? I can't remember, I just remember that it DOES look fierce; I went to youtube and saw some dude beat the crap out of about 20 people in two minutes -- krag naga I think, that's it).
I never heard that before. I think there was something special about Sam because of the demon blood. I know he never did EVIL but maybe because of the demon blood he was marked for Hell? I don't know and I am SURE that the show's canon never went there. Of course, my personal opinion in this matter is that if Bobby loved Dean as much as I think he loved Dean he should've snuck up behind him, bashed him on the head, tied him up, and then burned Sam's body to prevent Dean from making the deal. He KNEW Dean, he KNEW he'd do this. I mean, it really wasn't any surprise after what John did, was it?
ReplyDeleteBut I NEVER heard or read anything about Sam going to Heaven and then being pulled out. I think someone was speculating.
It is really so strange that you can't handle when there are posts aren't full of Sam's hate, and sure you have no problem at all with the other place which a full force of Sam's hate even more than Dean's love (It's not a surprise that place just contains of few extreme Dean fans now, because normal fans "Sam or Dean fans" feel this extreme attitude isn't healthy)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, a lot of Dean fans were disappointed with DD, the #Supernatural in twitter during the episode was full of not happy comments, many thought DD is embarrassing and boring, and a lot of (we want the real Dean back) comments, and sure fans are free to have their opinions about your favorite character or actor whatever you liked it or not!
I actually liked the episode. I would have liked it if it would have had car chases and explosions too but like this I liked it even more. It gave a lot of questions about all four characters. What is Crowley really up to? What has Sam done? Will they find a cure to Castiel? What is behind DD?
ReplyDeleteIn an interview Jensen said that he didn't want to play DD like normal bad guy meaning killing everything in sight, destroying the world. He didn't want to take the easy route. The dirt episode showed us the direction the rest we get later.
I belong to that part of the fans that are not a character/ship fan. I actually like all of them and love Supernatural. It seems to be the hardest place because we get a lot "Because you like the show or don't like the most this character/ship" you are wrong and you suck. Before I checked the internet I actually thought liking the characters and the show is a good thing...
I have nothing against ships either. People can watch the show as they like but I have trouble with it if it effects the show. I love Team Free Will and Castiel is like a brother. He is family to the boys. I miss him being with them. There is many kinds of love.
The trouble is when some part of the ship harass the writers/cast about it so bad that they need to take action. Of course they can't admit it but when Jensen says Misha got too much about it or that he feels relieved that the characters are not so much in same scenes (not that they wouldn't like to) Whose fault is that? The give questions to Supernatural cast was a disaster because of these people.
So, if I need to see blame. Some of them can watch in the mirror because everyone looses on this point. The cast are friends and they have awesome charisma together. What I have seen is that pressuring usually has the opposite effect than you think. So, I have hope they will return to be TFW but I have a feeling it only gets worse.
Still on DD I think he is self centered and he wasn't chivalrous. He did everything for himself. Not for the girl. Not for Sam. He doesn't care. The waitress was his so he beat up the guy on his territory. Not getting attached. He was sure he was going to leave on some point. She said no to him so he blew her off. And Dean threatened to kill Cole because he was after him (and maybe playing with his toy Sam) or maybe he just has mentality "If someone is going to kill Sam it's me" Anyway, we will again see that on the next episode.
I actually like this episode more than s9 pilot and I loved that. It was different and sometimes that is a good thing. One hiccup was the angel story line because like I said. Would have loved to see Cas working with Sam.
ha, I was screaming at my TV in the Sam whine season 8 finale..ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS...SAM. Dean usually bows to Sam's needs, John programed him that way, but it really does get old.
ReplyDeleteThank you for continuing your gripes and not being put off by the people who post, though I hope you don't get too much fallout from the princess peach comparison, even if it does ring true.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you a lot about this episode, for me it was a set up for what would be in something in other shows would be considered a two parter, a slow burn to a big climax. Well that is what I hope and if it is I guess the writers couldn't let Demon Dean rip in the premier simply because he'd swamp everyone else.
If Demon Dean was a rip roaring whirlwind of murder and mayhem, blowing away all in his path then we would know straight off the bat that Demon Dean would have to be stopped as there would be no cop to ask is he a psycho or hero, but right now there is and there is a place of darkness where Demon Dean could still go in the next couple of episodes.
But that being said a demon dean that would have to be stopped would be no emotional story for Sam either because really there would be no question to ask about why is he searching for Dean. But right now there is, well there is for me. Right now we saw him searching when he didn't know if Dean was dead or alive, demon or human, evil or good. He is searching when he had explicit instructions this time that he didn't have to, unlike the last with the non agreement agreement he held on to.
So why is Sam looking, what is emotionally different now than then for Sam, that Dean died in his arms? That in season 7 they hadn't had crossed words before Dean disappeared? Does this mean that Sam looking is it solely for Dean or is it more to do with himself, how he feels, his guilt. On seeing a demon that kills in self defence on that tape and having Crowley say the only soul in there is Dean does Sam want to save Dean for Dean's sake? Dean saved Sam's soul but that was after spending time with Soulless Sam and finding that he wasn't Sam, Sam hasn't spent time with Demon Dean, the one kill he knows is that Dean killed in self defence, why so openly threaten Crowley like he did if part of it wasn't that Demon Dean chose to stay with Crowley and not him?
Also why is Cas on earth if he is not with Sam? He's ill, heaven in a mess. Is it simply to keep himself from becoming a distraction or is he on Earth because he feels guilty about Dean?
The good thing though with Dean not being there I took from the premier that both Cas and Sam seemed to have their purpose torn out. They were going through the motions and with purpose but something in both of them was missing so to me it shows that even when wounded and being more of a pain than likeable Dean really is the heart of team freewill.
As much as I am not a fan of Carver, I'll give it a chance to the second episode.
Sam was the best part of the ep, but I just can not get the Sam of season 8 out of my head. NOW he wants to save his brother, NOW he is the Sam I always loved. I need to get Alaric to wipe my mind of season 8. lol
ReplyDeleteI was about to say you need a Torchwood retcon, but that works too.
I have mostly wiped my brain from the events of past seasons because it would color my criticism irrelevant to the story of the current season. I am inclined to believe they realized their blunder (both in making Sam not care for Dean and in not giving Dean any storylines other than nursing Sam) and are trying to correct it. The only mess up they don't seem to care to correct is Castiel's.
Carver is the worse thing ever to happen on SPN,
Isn't that the truth? And to think I cheered when I heard he was going to replace Gamble...
Sam hasn't spent time with Demon Dean, the one kill he knows is that Dean killed in self defence, why so openly threaten Crowley like he did if part of it wasn't that Demon Dean chose to stay with Crowley and not him?
ReplyDeleteYou really have to ask that? Dean has black eyes now. The brothers hate demons. There is no way Sam would let Dean suffer that fate. Dean didn’t deserve to have his soul twisted.
9.23 Do You Believe in Miracles?
Dean: Listen to me. It's better this way.
Sam: What?!
Dean: The Mark. It's making me into something I don't want to be.
Sam: Don't worry about the Mark. We'll figure out the Mark later. Just hold on,
okay? Get you some help.
Sam: Damn it, Crowley. You got him into this mess. You will get him
out... or so help me, God.
Sam until that point didn't know Dean had black eyes, he was still hoping that Dean was taken away against his will as a human. But not only has Sam found out Dean has black eyes, Crowley is telling Sam that Demon Dean isn't a regular demon he is still Dean, a twisted Dean but still Dean and the evidence Sam has at the moment kind of supports that as the only kill he has is one that is in self defence while other potential victims were present.
ReplyDeleteThe boys may hate demons but they have found not all demons are exactly black and white, Meg, Ruby and Crowley all had their own agendas. So why can't Demon Dean be any different? Sam doesn't know until he actually talks to him, he doesn't know if Crowley is telling the truth about Dean being a twisted version of Dean and not another demon in Dean's meat suit.
Right now what Sam does know as fact is that Crowley is sending demons to kill demon dean, should his priority be saving Dean from being a demon when he finds out Crowley isn't lying or getting Dean in whatever form he is in away from Crowley? For me it is getting Dean away from Crowley and then working out what to do next but Sam makes a big deal about saving his brother when Crowley points out it is Dean hanging about with Crowley is the thing that is eating him more. So who is that speech Sam makes about saving Dean really for? Himself or for Crowley?
Hey, thanks for checking in and posting a comment.
ReplyDeleteThe trouble is and comes when some part of the ship harass the writers/cast about it so badly that they need to take action. Of course they can't admit it but when Jensen says Misha got too much about it or that he feels relieved that the characters are not so much in same scenes (not that they wouldn't like to) Whose fault is that?
To each their own. Personally I find the whole "Woe is us!" attitude of the cast and crew toward the shippers tactless. Supernatural is hardly the first, or the only, show that has to deal with this phenomenon. Pretty much every successful show on air has a flagship pairing that has a loud and enthusiastic fanbase, most of it non-canon. Arrow sails Olicity (and the creators *spoilers* just made it canon,) Sleepy Hollow has Ichabbie, Teen Wolf has Sterek, and Hannibal has Hannigram (whose creator also is a big fan.) Supernatural is hardly a special case.
If the people involved enjoy the benefits that comes with having a popular ship, like free publicity and social media buzz, I don't see why they can't put up a little with the noise. Nobody is beating at their doors. It's mostly an outpouring of love that raises attention. Does getting offended (for some reason) by non-canon questions posed by a fan - who will later go online and vote for your show a million times so you and your buddy could walk on the red carpet at the PCA's - worth alienating that fan, and subsequently that entire fanbase? It's a trade off worth keeping the show visible and alive. In this day and age, dealing with social media and its various antics, strange as they may be, is part of the ongoing maintenance of a well oiled show. That doesn't mean the creators have to bend to fan wishes and change their scripts, only that they need to apply sensitivity and tact when dealing with fans.
Thank you for continuing your gripes and not being put off by the people who post, though I hope you don't get too much fallout from the princess peach comparison, even if it does ring true.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading. Most of the fallout so far has been over my critique of Demon Dean. I understand some people love him. What I don't understand is how not loving him makes one an enemy of Dean or Jensen.
for me it was a set up for what would be in something in other shows would be considered a two parter, a slow burn to a big climax.
Not a good idea for a season opener IMO.
And don't get me wrong, the rip roaring whirlwind of murder and mayhem idea for DD was just a suggestion. I'd take anything more inventive than drunk womanizer which is both unlikable and done to death.
Also why is Cas on earth if he is not with Sam? He's ill, heaven in a mess. Is it simply to keep himself from becoming a distraction or is he on Earth because he feels guilty about Dean?
If it was because of Dean he'd be with Sam, as you correctly noted. If he is doing heaven's business on earth then, a) why is he in charge of that when he is both conflicted and obviously sick? I'm sure Hannah had much better picks up there, and b) Why isn't he looking for a solution to restore his dying grace?
Hopefully they'll answer some of these questions in the upcoming episodes because as off this season opener Castiel's story makes absolutely no sense.
I see it go both ways. Respect from both ways and that is what I tried to say. On my behalf I can say I am not giving the creators/cast/writers grief because I wouldn't like that kind of behavior against me. But each of their own. I know I would like have some things differently in the show but we don't get always what we want. Usually furthest from and I enjoy the story that I am given and still can get.
ReplyDeleteI also was excited about Carver coming back, some of my favorite eps were written by him, but as a show runner he sucks big time.
ReplyDelete'Most of the fallout so far has been over my critique of Demon Dean. I understand some people love him. What I don't understand is how not loving him makes one an enemy of Dean or Jensen.'
ReplyDeleteI don't understand that either. It doesn't make you an enemy of Dean or Jensen just not a fan of Demon Dean. People are being stupid.
As for your thing about a slow burn being a bad idea for a season starter until Dean and Sam come face to face then to me this season hasn't officially started hence my reserving judgement until the next episodes.
But in some ways I can understand it too, the writers have done this too themselves. There has been too many years of Dean being the emotional heart and POV with no real way to get into Sam's story unless he is a plot point. For us to get any real insight into how Sam's head truly works, while turning the Dean saves Sam trope around, Dean has to be parked out of the way and in a bar womanising and drinking is the easiest way to do it while proving Dean isn't a run of the mill power obsessed demon that Crowley can't manipulate too easily.
As s for Cas, I completely agree his story makes no sense but I doubt we will get anything that answers our questions. The only reason that he wouldn't be with Sam that makes any sense to me is that whatever happened to Sam's shoulder meant they parted ways - but that makes Sam look like a huge tool yet again considering how sick Cas is. He may not have let Cas help but he could have given Cas a comfy place to sleep.
I'm not condoning attacking the cast and crew. That's not respectful behavior. Unfortunately any large group of people has a few nut jobs, especially when they are passionate about something. IMO that is where most of the disrespect comes from. My grief with the SPN cast, crew and writers is that it seems like they put everyone under the same tarp and condemned any action that had remotely anything to do with that preference, ignoring the good deeds and the support. It's too much like seeing only the half empty part of the glass.
ReplyDeleteMind you I'm also fine with whatever story they serve to me, as long as its good. Separating Dean and Cas while keeping Cas on the show hasn't done Supernatural any favors. Everyone agrees Castiel's story is boring. I am his fan and even I admit if they are going to keep him detached from the brothers they better take him, and his mutated angel buddies, off the show.
forgot about season 5 when Ash said you guys been too Heaven but you just do not remember it that's what I am saying.
ReplyDeleteI thought in Dark Side of the Moon that Joshua told them specifically that Sam did NOT deserve to be in Heaven, but he would get in because Dean could not be "happy" unless Sam got to Heaven too. That because Sam and Dean knew that it was a "memorex" situation that they would know if it was unreal (both of them knew that the scenes they were walking through were recreations).
ReplyDeleteI think if we consider that Sam sided with Hell (even if he was unknowing that Ruby was a servant of Hell, he was told again and again and AGAIN that what he was doing was wrong) at least from Heaven's point of view that makes sense.
It's a funny thing, I have never understood how some sins cannot be forgiven (like you can't be forgiven for suicide, because, duh, YOU'RE DEAD) and others, you just gotta ask for forgiveness. (Like Nazis could say, I didn't REALIZE until just this moment that this was not part of God's plan.)
you know It was Carver who F-ed up Sam in season 8 this is just him saving his ass with the Sam fans trying too kill him HA HA! just kidding but saving his ass.
ReplyDeleteNeither was I, which is why I still haven't watched the episode. It doesn't seem like I missed much at all.
ReplyDeleteHahaha! I haven't watched it yet either Kerinda. I saw a bit of DD, and from the bit I saw, he didn't seem all that demonic. I saw the part where he was beating up the guy who was harassing that chick. Since when do demons care about other people?
ReplyDeleteSam found out that a demon attacked Dean who has black eyes now. Dean managed to kill the other one. What revelation was Sam supposed to have from that other than the fact that the worst thing had happened to his brother?
ReplyDeleteBefore Dean died, he said the mark was changing him into something he didn’t want to be. Now he is a demon. Why on earth would Sam not save Dean for Dean?
The boys may hate demons but they have found not all demons are exactly black and white, Meg, Ruby and Crowley all had their own agendas. So why can't Demon Dean be any different?
You really think Dean would ever choose to live as a demon?
Sam doesn't know until he actually talks to him, he doesn't know if Crowley is telling the truth about Dean being a twisted version of Dean and not another demon in Dean's meat suit.
Both of those scenarios are awful. Thus, Sam feels he needs to fix things no matter what.
Wow…
ReplyDelete5.16 Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua: He knows what the angels are doing. He knows that the Apocalypse has begun. He just doesn’t think it’s his problem.
Dean: Not his problem?
Joshua: God saved you already. He put you on that plane. He brought back Castiel. He granted you salvation in heaven (he turns to face Sam directly) and after everything you’ve done too. It’s more than he’s intervened in a long time. He’s finished. Magic amulet or not, you won’t be able to find him.
I feel a little thick here: are you saying my interpretation of the scene is wrong or that it is right and you just got that from it?
ReplyDeleteThe actual words sorta match what I said they did but I can see another argument, that maybe God is granting Sam salvation because he is trying to make it better. But when I watch the scene I "felt" that Joshua was saying that Sam did not deserve salvation because he knowingly went against God's Will and Winchesters can't claim ignorance.
But I would like to read your ideas, if they differ.
It was a reaction to this:
ReplyDeleteI thought in Dark Side of the Moon that Joshua told them specifically that Sam did NOT deserve to be in Heaven, but he would get in because Dean could not be "happy" unless Sam got to Heaven too.
Why would Sam get to go to Heaven only so Dean would have the genuine article?
I thought it was in gratitude for Dean's always being of service for the right reasons -- that was made him the Righteous Man. Dean was doing God's will here for the right reason (saving people) while Sam and John were reacting to their need for revenge against what had killed Jess and Mary.
ReplyDeleteI thought Joshua was telling Sam he did not deserve to go to Heaven on his own. That Dean deserved to go, and his high level of service to God sort of brought Sam along. But I agree others could view it differently. For the show pov don't think Sam "deserved" Heaven on his own until he jumped into the Cage to stop Lucifer.
But when I watch the scene I "felt" that Joshua was saying that Sam did not deserve salvation because he knowingly went against God's Will and Winchesters can't claim ignorance.
ReplyDeleteCastiel was the only one who knew about the plan to start the apocalypse. How did Sam go “knowingly against God's Will”?
I thought Joshua was telling Sam he did not deserve to go to Heaven on his own. That Dean deserved to go, and his high level of service to God sort of brought Sam along.
What part of Joshua’s dialogue would indicate that?
The only thing he said about the Winchesters ending up in Heaven was “--- He granted you salvation in heaven (he turns to face Sam
directly) and after everything you’ve done too. It’s more than he’s intervened
in a long time.”
To me it seems God was rooting for the brothers although He tried to stay out of the situation as much as possible.
Well, Carver did say that this season there is no "big-world changing threat." The season is going to be more personal, like season 9 but minus a main "big bad" like Metatron or Abaddon. I'm convinced Carver's three year plan is all about deconstructing the Winchester's relationship, he;s broken it down, not he's going to build it back up.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I thought one of the most interesting things they could have done for Misha was to kill Cas with this whole fading grace issue in midseason, and have him play Jimmy Novak for the remainder.
ReplyDeleteBut since they are bring Claire Novak back, Carver has already come out and said that Jimmy is dead. Which is a terrible choice, there are two things SPN is pessimistic and nihilistic, and the idea that Jimmy's soul was released from his body flies in the face of that.
It's what I would do, you can only take screaming that you are a homophobe on Tumblr and Twitter for so long, before it gets to you. I wonder how the gay writers feel about that.
ReplyDeleteYeah. But I doubt on those other shows the writers don't get called homophobes online on a daily basis. I mean even the openly gay writers aren't safe from it. I've seen one of them get called a homophobe on Twitter over the dumbest thing.
ReplyDeleteSo it's like, those fans find a scene where Dean and Cas talk romantic for some reason, and use that to fuel their accusations of queerbaiting. Jensen saying it's not happening didn't help any (he got head rip off for that by fans), people on the show have said it's not happening, and yet the verbal assaults keep happening. Even Robbie Thompson said, fans can ship what they want. But they (the writers) have their own views of the characters and their story. In a rational world, that should have been enough, but it wasn't.
He's been awful. Supernatural went from being my favorite show to one I no longer rush to see live.
ReplyDeleteI just watched the myself, and I was troubled by your #4 as well. Dean seemed to care enough about the waitress to protect her from her boyfriend, tell her to not get attached, and invite her on a road trip or whatever but cares nothing about Sam??!?!
ReplyDeleteI don't care if Dean doesn't care about Sam, but it wasn't consistent. Either he still cares about people or he doesn't.
I think the "woe is me" attitude is just their way to not have to pick a side or annoy anyone when it comes up. Like it's an evasive technique. How else do you do it without addressing the issue directly? They can't validate the ship, they can't contradict it, so they take the well-worn path of shaking their head at shippers.
ReplyDeleteI have never cared for Hannah, but again Carver has trashed canon, Cas was a free will believer, but did not fight for Angels wanting to stay on earth.
ReplyDeleteThis was a good comment and I agree with it.
Thanks :-)
ReplyDeleteI never really cared much for Hannah either. I guess I wasn't paying too close attn but was Castiel trying to convince them to return to Heaven. I thought he wanted to hear them out, but Hannah wanted to kill them?
I have to commend you on the class and poise you have when you respond to such comments. I've been on the receiving end of them since I began being critical of Dean in late season four. "Oh, you SAM Girls ..." Then I must inform them, no, I am not a Sam Girl. Never was, still am not. Just have a problem with the way they've done a character who was once so close to me, I understood him like I've understood few fictional characters. Also, the double standard when it comes to one Winchester's actions being excusable, when the other is "damned if he does, damned if he don't". And it's tiring.
ReplyDelete