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Supernatural - Episode 9.14 - Captives - Sneak Peek

21 Feb 2014

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103 comments:

  1. klutzy_girl21 February 2014 at 21:03

    Who did Dean call? I can't figure out what he's saying. And LOL, Sam.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Ramona Jones21 February 2014 at 21:04

    Crowley

    ReplyDelete
  3. klutzy_girl21 February 2014 at 21:04

    Ah, got it! Thanks. That makes sense.

    ReplyDelete
  4. San Summer21 February 2014 at 21:31

    Seems like they are continuing with the notion that Dean has started drinking again.

    ReplyDelete
  5. gogy221 February 2014 at 21:32

    Sam said " really Dean maybe what ?............

    ReplyDelete
  6. sdwhiskey21 February 2014 at 21:34

    Aw, first Sam and now Crowley. I guess no one is "that into" Dean anymore. Keep drinking Dean, that's about all you've got left.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:37

    What is the movie reference?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:37

    Based on the tension here, I don't think it's been forgotten.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:39

    Really Dean?


    What?


    That's your third unanswered voice mail. Ever think maybe he's just not that into you?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:39

    Well he has Cas, but Cas is, as always, in other plots.

    ReplyDelete
  11. gogy221 February 2014 at 21:40

    thanks a lot :)

    ReplyDelete
  12. sdwhiskey21 February 2014 at 21:40

    "He's just not that into you." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1001508/

    ReplyDelete
  13. Kate M21 February 2014 at 21:41

    I really hope so. I'm wondering if it will be something they'll talk about or they will just make passive-aggressive comments.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Amy Wegner21 February 2014 at 21:48

    That was a pretty short sneak peek. Usually we get ones that are over a minute long.
    I liked Sam's movie reference. Don't like the tension between them and Dean's dismissal of Sam's chill. I mean, seriously, doesn't he think that Sam would know the difference between a chill and something ghosty?

    ReplyDelete
  15. tvmonkey21 February 2014 at 21:50

    Ha ha love the movie reference Sam and applying it to Crowley/Dean is just wicked.


    I'm pretty sure this episode has a lot of Mark of Cain stuff. I think they're trying to get a lead on the blade or something because Crowley cant find it?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Amy Wegner21 February 2014 at 21:52

    I thought it was supposed to be at the bottom of the lake? I thought that was the whole reason Dean dropped Crowley off there at the end of "First Born".

    ReplyDelete
  17. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:53

    I guess I see that as a popular catchphrase more than a movie. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Peter J421 February 2014 at 21:54

    Aren't they about to do some sort of seance? There are candles on the ground, lit in a formation.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Ana Paula21 February 2014 at 23:22

    well, i guess Mark of Cain here we go... It's Tuesday yet, PLEASE!!!

    ReplyDelete
  20. tvmonkey22 February 2014 at 00:07

    maybe he just cant get to it or something?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ginger22 February 2014 at 01:59

    Sounds like a mention of Dean focused on the First Blade (bet it doesn't appear for seven more episodes) and Sam is still his same condescending self. Keep drinking Dean. I fully understand.

    ReplyDelete
  22. CyanaT22 February 2014 at 05:44

    Yes, looks like Sam and Dean have set up to contact the "ghost" and are waiting for 'it' to show.

    I'm sure Dean is trying to contact Crowley for further info on the First Blade. So we have at least two Winchester storylines going on.

    ReplyDelete
  23. SupernaturallyMe22 February 2014 at 07:06

    Sam knows about the Mark of Cain so surely he should be able to understand Dean's anxiety to find the Blade. Maybe Dean's started to notice some kind of side-effect and really wants to ask Crowley about it.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Aline22 February 2014 at 07:07

    It could be worse, Ginger. Sam could have made a snide, condescending comment about teenage pregnancy as a result of possession, like Dean did in Sharp Teeth. That was pretty nasty, especially as Dean was the one directly responsible for it, so it's not exactly something to make jokes about.

    And maybe Dean is drinking because of the results of his own actions, or are you one of those who believes that everything he does is Sam's fault? Dean has gotten himself into a pretty big hole, and if his response to that is to simply hit the bottle (again) then it's not particularly mature or heroic. When Sam did wrong in season 4, he faced up to what he did and did everything in his power to fix it. He took every word of blame and condemnation (and Dean had plenty of those) and set about fixing things. He didn't hit the bottle. Perhaps Dean could learn something from Sam.

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  25. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 07:29

    We must have been watching two different shows if you think you saw one where Sam faced up to and fixed anything in season four. And no, Sam didn't hit the bottle--he drank demon blood, instead. 'Cause that was so much better.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 07:30

    It's at the bottom of the deepest ocean, under a whole lot of salt water.

    Could be tricky for a demon to reach.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Aline22 February 2014 at 07:42

    Season 5. I believe Sam made amends for what he did. It's probable that jumping into the Cage wasn't enough for you but the guy did all he could do. He spent much of the season making it up to Dean, apologising profusely and showing the utmost faith in him.

    And why did Sam drink demon blood again? Oh yeah, firstly to save people and then to try and kill Lilith.

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  28. sharonally22 February 2014 at 08:34

    Dont victim Dean in this he is not , his fault , his choices . There is no wrong Sam in this , there is just wrong Dean.

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  29. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 08:36

    Why did Sam drink demon blood? He might have said it was to save people but he did it because he fell in with Ruby when no demon would deal with him to get revenge on Lilith.


    You can dress it up any way you want but the primary reasons Sam went after Lilith and drank blood were all him - anger, rage and because instead of actually dealing with Dean being different after coming back from hell, he'd go on a righteous revenge quest against those who caused the change in his brother because Dean wasn't going to do it. Saving people and stopping the apocalypse by taking out Lilith were secondary reasons and in Sam's head just justified his primary motives.

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  30. sharonally22 February 2014 at 08:36

    Sam faced up to everything he did and learnt from them .This is not about Sam but Dean and his actions and now Dean learning a harsh lesson.

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  31. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 08:42

    really?


    I thought the problem with the show, when push comes to shove neither brother learns because of the screwed up codependency.


    Dean made a bad decision yes. But it lead of from the confession in Sacrifice. That was from Sam. Just like Sam's mistakes with Ruby lead off from Dean selling his soul.


    Now Dean has the mark and Sam's response is barely anything. Now not saying that Sam doesn't have a right to be angry, but when has it turned out alright when one brother ignores how the other has decided to respond to the other. It would be nice for once that they sat down and had a proper talk and sat and dealt with the other's response and not had to lead to huge gestures to show they care.

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  32. isleofskye22 February 2014 at 08:48

    I'll just have to be content with the opportunity of still being able to watch my favourite beautiful brothers on the screen.
    This clip illustrates how their relatioship is still horribly strained and broken. Carver has hollowed out their brotherly bond, leaving two empty husks. :(

    ReplyDelete
  33. sharonally22 February 2014 at 08:49

    No Dean made a decision based on what Gadreel showed him not from any confusion from Sacrifice. Dean knew what he was doing , he knew he was going against everything Sam would want.

    I am not sure what response people wanted from Sam with the MOC it was about the same as Dean's response to learning Sam was Lucifers vessel .

    People can look for Sam culpibilty in what Dean did , the possession or that Sam somehow made him but at the end of the day this was on Dean and he knows that.

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  34. Aline22 February 2014 at 08:58

    Primary, secondary, it matters not. Why did he start drinking blood (and he started drinking blood when Dean was in hell so it had nothing at all to do with Dean being different when he got back from hell)? To send demons back to hell and to save lives. As he said, the knife kills the host. He didn't drink blood solely because he was angry. He wasn't solely revenge fuelled when he started drinking, he was distraught and suicidal. Ruby gave him a purpose, a way to save lives while also meting out some measure of payback on the demons who had ruined their lives and killed everyone he loved.

    He went on a revenge quest to kill the one who was responsible for torturing his brother in hell, not because they caused 'change' in him. He stopped drinking blood when Dean asked him to, and went back drinking it when they were informed that killing Lilith would stop the Apocalypse.

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  35. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 09:02

    Dean just had Sam go on about how he was willing to die and part of the reason was Sam was atoning for always letting Dean down, then Gadreel shows Dean, Sam is still willing to die. If you think that Dean is only acting out of what Gadreel is showing him then that wipes out the codependency and everything Dean said in the 8 seasons before, because if Dean let Sam die for him he'd be letting Sam die because he agreed with Sam's appraisal of himself in that Church.


    Part of the reason that Dean let Gadreel in was also to try and redeem himself in Sam's eyes. He told Sam's well being in front of everything in that Church and that was what he was doing. Putting Sam's well being infront of everything, including Sam's wishes.


    It is cause and effect, not victim blaming.


    Sam told Dean that part of the reason he went with Ruby, was because it made him feel more powerful than he was feeling than when he was with Dean. More in control. Well a large part of that lead from Dean selling himself to let Sam live without Sam's input on it.

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  36. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 09:07

    His continuation of drinking blood as he told Chuck was because Dean was different.


    And Primary and Secondary reasons matter, it suggests the outcome what will happen to Sam. Bobby was for Sam drinking blood if it gave them an edge and Dean told him that it would mean Sam would turn into a monster.


    Also Sam went back to working with Ruby after Dean asked him to stop (not drinking the blood because Dean didn't know at that point), not because Lilith stepped up her game with regard to the apocalypse, it was because he saw an old man that ended up alone and he didn't want the same thing. Him going back to the blood and Ruby had nothing to do with saving people, it was to save himself and continuing his revenge thing.

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  37. Aline22 February 2014 at 09:42

    Sam told Chuck re drinking blood "What choice have I got? If it helps me kill Lilith and stop the apocalypse..." He said re Dean being different "He's not Dean lately. Ever since he got out of hell. He needs help' and "Well, he's looked out for me my whole life. I can't return the favour?" Dean was, understandably, different when he got back from hell. He was damaged, broken. He had just admitted that he had enjoyed torturing souls while in hell.


    And reasons don't matter, all that matters is actions. Isn't this what Dean always said?


    At the end of 'Criss Angel is a Douchebag' there was a conversation between Sam, Dean and Jay where Jay pointed out that Charlie, his best friend, was dead because he (Jay) did the 'right thing'. The right thing for Sam to do, per Dean, was to not use his powers. Sam believed the blood was necessary to fuel his powers so Sam then went to Ruby to get back in because he didn't want to be doing this (losing family, being pawns for demons, facing the Apocalypse, hunting etc) when he was an old man. Stopping the Apocalypse would have ended all that. He and Dean could have lived out a long, peaceful life were Sam willing to get his hands dirty now and not do the 'right thing'. So he got his hands dirty.

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  38. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 09:50

    And what did Dean say at the beginning of Criss Angel? He basically said the same thing he has always said. He expects his life to end bloody and in a fight. He doesn't expect to live to be an old man.


    Sam going with Ruby didn't change that, it isn't Sam addressing that. It is Sam addressing just what Jay said in terms of himself. He got his hands dirty to try and make sure he had a long and peaceful life because really him doing what he did, had no affect on Dean's life view where he still died in a bloody mess.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Aline22 February 2014 at 10:58

    If Dean stayed in hunting, if Lilith broke all the seals and the Apocalypse happened, then Dean would die bloody. However, if Sam stopped the Apocalypse then he might not die bloody and sad. Dean said he wanted to die before he got old because getting old was ‘brutal’, but did he actually mean it? His dreams showed that he wanted a life out of hunting, with a family. And if he did mean it do you think Sam should have tried to stop him?

    Like I said, that conversation came after Jay stated that his friend died because he did the right thing. In the earlier conversation, Sam was all about ‘We’. Ýou think we will?’ ‘Die before we get old’ ‘Maybe we’ll be different’ ‘What if we could win’ ‘If we could put an end to it’ The biggest monster they were facing, and had ever faced at that stage, was the Apocalypse. Sam wanted to cut the head off that monster so that they would not die bloody and sad.

    Deans life view at that stage was being heavily influenced by what he did in hell. The previous episode he confessed to liking torturing souls and he wasn’t long out of hell. Take him out of that situation, give him no reason to hunt demons, cut the head off the monster who tortured him and who ruined his life and perhaps his life view might change.

    Motives matter to Dean only when they come from Dean. He has shown little to no interest in Sam’s motives. Season 4 it was all about Sam
    being wrong and evil. There was no heed paid to why Sam was doing it. Even now, why Sam did what he did is irrelevant to Dean because he is still listing what Sam did as Sam's greatest sins. In season 7 he paid no heed to what Sam said about why he didn’t bring him back, all he was focused on was the choice Sam made to not bring him back and to not hunt.

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  40. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 12:10

    If Lilith had been killed before enough seals had been broken Dean would still be hunting. He said something that killing Lilith didn't end things there would just be something else. They hunted monsters before they got knee deep in demons and Dean would go back to it.


    Yes he was influenced by his time in hell but it was more than that. He mentioned in season one they should be saving people hunting things, not justbe focused on their wants of getting revenge and finding their Dad because that wasn't healthy (in terms of Winchester mental health it isn't much but I suppose it is relative). In season 2 in his opinion, even before it got confirmed that John gave his life for him, that his dad should have died in a fight and not in a hospital. He told Gordon that at 16 he 'embraced' the life. He may have tried with Lisa but he went back to hunting because he wasn't fitting in with normality as much as Sam coming back.


    Sam's actions with Ruby in response to Jay's words wouldn't have addressed any of that, it just would have addressed Sam's response to the apocalypse. So in the end Dean still probably would have been on a path to end bloody.


    All the way through the series if Sam doesn't have something to prove he has a way out in the back of his head. In season 4 he said normal had flown. But given a way to end Lilith and after Jay he starts planning for a future out of hunting by doing what he has to to end things.


    As for season 8, it is again a vicious circle, Sam doesn't fully address Dean's hurt about not being looked for by continually referencing that agreement. He doesn't phrase his decision and the state he was in in a way that allows Dean to work through his anger because the agreement makes it fall on Dean's head as much as it does on Sam's. He uses the agreement to get Dean to shut up really and in the end has to tell Dean to drop it so Dean hits back with the only thing he can do. Going back to all the other things that Sam has done and he hasn't been fully able to work through his anger for it. Sam's response to go after Benny and then do the trials then when he falls into despair a lot of his phrasing is about how Dean made him feel causing Dean to hold on tighter and letting Gadreel have his way with Sam.


    Sam in many ways is his own worse enemy when communicating with his brother. Just like Dean doesn't know how to be anything else but a martyr to his need to protect Sam.

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  41. Aline22 February 2014 at 15:04

    If Lilith had been killed before enough seals had been broken Dean would not have ‘had’ to keep hunting. He could have if he wanted to but the biggest, most dangerous bad would have been taken out. So Sam’s actions would have given Dean an out if he wanted it. If he died bloody then he would have died that way out of choice, not because he was caught up in something that could have been prevented.

    In season one (and when he was 16), Dean didn’t know as much as he did later on. He considered himself a hero, he wanted to be on the road, his brother at his side, a girl in every town, dead ‘monsters’ left in his wake yadda yadda. However, as seasons went on, the reality of hunting and the cost of that life kicked in. In season 2 (Croatoan) Dean said "I'm
    tired, Sam. I'm tired of this job, this life . . . this weight on my shoulders,
    man. I'm tired of it." Following John’s death, Dean’s deal and the reveal about Sam, Sam and Dean were hunting out of necessity, revenge and in later seasons, to fix the messes they themselves made. There has been very little presented about the merits of hunting for many seasons now.


    Ruby and Sam's other 'mistakes' were brought up by Dean when he was affected by the spectre (and these were things that Dean said that he had long forgiven( and again when Dean was going through the list of things Sam should confess (as if the couple of centuries he spent in the Cage wasn't enough!). They weren't brought up by anything Sam said.
    In season 8, Sam gave his reasons. He believed Dean was dead, he stuck to the deal they both agreed to and he didn’t try and bring him back. You say that Sam didn’t fully address Dean’s hurt but how could he have when Dean didn’t even listen to what he did say? When Sam tried to talk to him Dean usually just brushed him off with a snide remark about Amelia, Sam's year off or he just drove away. Yes, Dean needs to work though his anger and he can start doing that by listening to what others have to say and by examining why he really does what he does. He can't keep saying that he does it for Sam, especially if Sam doesn't want him to do it so I'm sorry but that does not make Dean a 'martyr' to his need to protect Sam.

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  42. Ginger22 February 2014 at 15:15

    I agree with you in that Sam is a victim. That's the problem I have with Sam -- he is ALWAYS the victim. Even when he isn't, he makes it all about Sam.
    Take this season, for instance. Sam has decided that everything that has ever happened is because Dean is his brother. He was prepared and wanted to die to end it, and Dean saved him. Well, Sam, just leave.
    The way things are written up to this point, I have no idea why Sam stays or why Dean stays. There are no logical reasons for the brothers to be together. Personally, I would be happy if Carver's "maturity" was that the brothers be permanently separated.

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  43. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 17:11

    Season 4 (which was what you were talking about) did *not* end with Sam making amends. It ended with Sam getting his comeuppance for being a jackass all season. Sam didn't have time to make amends in the two minutes he had between discovering the consequences of killing Lilith and Lucifer showing up. No, an overdue "I'm sorry" after holding Ruby so Dean could kill her doesn't cover it.

    As for season 5, I never bought Sam's "redemption," since he treated Dean like crap for most of the season and came back in season 6 (with and without his soul) not any nicer or contrite than when he jumped into a big CGI hole at the end of season 5. You don't have to like it, but there are excellent reasons for why some fans are very angry with Sam right now. It's not as though he suddenly started acting like this. He just doesn't have a supernatural excuse for it.

    And Sam drinking demon blood? First, that turned out to be a really bad idea on the level of letting Lucifer out and second, it was clearly stated by multiple people who would know (like War) that Sam drank it to feel strong and superior, and that it really didn't have anything to do with why he *said* he drank it.

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  44. Nick22 February 2014 at 17:14

    It looks like season 9 is on track to be the most misquoted season of all time! Sam didn't say that everything that has ever happened is because Dean is his brother. He said that "everything that has gone wrong between us has been because we're family'" 'We', not 'you'.

    I do agree with your last statement, and I do hope that when the show ends Sam and Dean will be permanently separated, whether that be via death or because they chose to go their own ways. I do wonder though, if Dean is the one who dies, will he expect Sam to make a deal or sacrifice some innocent in order to bring him back. Barring that, a good ending might be that they're together but not hunting. They're just retired to a safe life.

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  45. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 17:14

    He started drinking blood because Ruby told him it would make him strong enough to kill Lilith.

    So, Big Bad goal or not, his reason for starting and continuing to drink demon blood was *always* to be stronger. And he did kill people to get that blood, so it was hardly better than the knife.

    Ruby was transparently evil and Sam was stupid to listen to her. Of all the decisions Kripke made with Sam, I think creating Ruby was easily the worst in terms of ruining Sam as a character. Her presence and Sam trusting her made Sam look like a moron for two straight seasons.

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  46. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 17:19

    Sam didn't face up to a damned thing. In season nine, Sam is still the same cowardly hypocrite he always was. Just recently, he abandoned his brother and an innocent kid for a year. For no reason. And he didn't show an ounce of remorse for it.

    As for Dean "learning harsh lessons," Dean learns those ever freakin' episode--and they're usually the lessons somebody else should be learning. How about we have an episode or three where Dean isn't doing that?

    Beating up more on Dean is neither new nor innovative.

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  47. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 17:21

    I sincerely hope the show separates the brothers long before it ends, but I have a bad feeling they'll keep going with this nonsense until the bitter end.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 17:25

    Sam *abandoned* Dean and Kevin. For a *year*.

    You want to hate Dean? You go right ahead. But Sam has most definitely done wrong. You think Kevin might just not be dead, or even have been safer and happier in the past two years, if Sam hadn't ditched him for year? Think they might have a better plan against Crowley at this point? Think Mama Tran might not have been dragged into all of this?

    It's not as though the season began with no history to it. It began with Sam having given up the Trials (which he stole from Dean in the first place because, he claimed, he could do them better), and given Dean a big whiny speech about how Dean always picked other people to be his brothers over Sam because he didn't trust Sam. Right after *that* big guilt trip, Sam started dying, after telling Dean many times throughout the previous year he wanted to live. And this is Dean "I have to protect my brother at all costs" Winchester we're talking about, here. What came next was inevitable. But Sam had a huge part in it.

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  49. chris68422 February 2014 at 17:37

    Am I the only one who found this clip funny? Dean makes a dick comment to Sam. Sam makes one back to Dean. They're brothers. They quarrel. I can't believe all the people on this thread who never snipe at family at times.

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  50. Ksana22 February 2014 at 18:45

    Read all the comments. All I can say it's make me smile how 10 second clip triggers such a discussion. We can love or hate one of the character by now or current show direction, but we have to admit that whatever going on still makes us emotional and keeps us watching. Majority of shows go blah and I just stop watching it. This one still keeps me care.
    I have to admit I like this drama in brothers relationship. Its always one short step between love and hate. It feels real. And this never going to go beyond repair as many claiming, because they are family. Doesn't matter what Sam currently feels or says or how he behaves. I agree with Bobby ( and I going to hole bunch of downvotes for that): family suppose to make you miserable from time to time. You suffer through it, fight for it, and then value its higher then ever.

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  51. Aline22 February 2014 at 18:48

    Sam believed Dean was dead, so he stuck to the deal they both agreed to. Sam apologised to Kevin and told him that he needed to clear his head after Dean and he disappeared. Kevin was gracious enough to accept that apology and not harp on at him for half a season about it.


    You think that if Sam hadn't 'ditched' Kevin for a year then things might be different now but you can apply the butterfly effect to every scenario on the show. Perhaps if Sam went gung ho after him he might not have escaped but been killed by Crowley earlier, along with more people. Of course, if they decided to not go after Dick Roman in the first place they wouldn't have ended up in Purgatory and Kevin would not have been captured. If they had killed Castiel or Crowley at any stage then things would be completely different now. If Dean hadn't made the deal in season 2, or John in season 1, or Mary ten years before Sam was born things might be different now so why are you focusing solely on Sam not going after Dean or Kevin?


    Sam didn't 'steal the trials from Dean' and he didn't claim he could do them better (on the contrary he said that Dean was a better hunter than he was). He saved Deans life when the hellhound had him on the ground. He realised that for Dean, the trials were a suicide mission. At this stage they did not realise that dying would be part of the trials. Once that was realised, Sam was okay with it because the end result would have been the gates to hell closed and that would have saved countless lives. He also wanted to do it because he hoped it would finally make Dean proud of him and trust him. Sam believed that Dean didn't trust him because of all that Dean said to him through the year (and the years before it), including that Benny (a vampire he knew for less than a year) was more of a brother than Sam had ever been (despite Sam fighting by his side for almost two decades) and that all Sam had done since he sat into his ride was deceive him. He also chose a vampire over Sam (while listing Sam choosing a demon over Dean as one of Sam's greatest sins). Dean never addressed any of this, instead he merely dismissed it.


    You do realise that your 'what came next was inevitable. But Sam had a huge part in it' is pure rape apologism. Sam didn't ask for it, he shouldn't have expected it, Dean knew that he wouldn't want it but he did it anyway, because it got Dean what he wanted; his brother alive. So it's this 'I have to protect my brother at all costs' that is the issue. If all he wants to do is protect his brother then how can he hunt, and how can he see Sam as his brother if he constantly vetos Sam's decisions. What happens if Sam is killed on a hunt or gets hit by a car when crossing the road or dies of old age, should he expect Dean to make a deal for him again because it is 'inevitable' and will Sam have played a 'huge part' in it because he dared to die?

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  52. fazziemodo22 February 2014 at 18:49

    Technically after finding out it was an angel that raised him from hell, Dean would have had every right to quit hunting. He was back from the dead, YED was dead, he'd lost his dad but him and Sam had avenged him, their mother and Jess. Then an angel comes and tells him that they had work for him to do after they sat on their collective backsides and let everything that happen to Sam and Dean happen.


    Dean would have been perfectly within his rights to tell them to go stick it and have Bobby go and have other hunters deal with the apocalypse and only deal with the things that were directly infront of them. Neither brother were aware they were part of some grand apocalypse plan. The YED that declared Sam the boy King was gone.


    Sam wanting going back to Ruby after Jay's talk wasn't about giving Dean an out if he wanted it, it was giving himself an out at best, at worst you think about it Sam was in a lesser way taking away Dean's agency than what Dean did with Gadreel. Sam could then blackmail Dean into stopping the way you picture it. Ruby and Sam kept saying Dean would understand why Sam did it, Sam did it to get revenge on Lilith, he did it so they didn't end up like Jay. Not once did he listen to what Dean was truly saying about himself and who he was. It is just like saying that Dean did the right thing with Gadreel because Sam didn't have to die then under the threat of the supernatural. Sam is perfectly able to blow his own brains out if he wants but Dean at that point gave Sam the opportunity to make his own choice about living or dying without being at deaths door because of a big bad supernatural reason.


    But Dean has always been the same with regard to hunting, even not in the presence of a big bad. Dean didn't have to go and investigate the girl who kept appearing when he was in the Djinn induced dream. He stood in front of his dad's grave going on about why did it have to be them, not that he was choosing not to go and save people. But why did they have to be the ones that did it, it was reluctant acceptance that if he didn't go and save people they would die. He didn't want to go and hunt but he was doing it because he had to try and stop the bad and went tooled up to do it.


    He was tired by the end of season 5, he wanted it to stop. But in season 6 we saw him trying to fit into a world that wasn't him. Why? Not simply because he loved Lisa or wanted out, but because it was what Sam wanted. Dean never found his own version of normal, if he had maybe he would have settled but he didn't. Instead he is in suburbia and pulling guns on the neighbourhood lapdogs.

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  53. Aline22 February 2014 at 20:23

    After finding out it was an angel that raised him from hell, and for a purpose, it would have been hard to walk away, especially as angels were threatening him with a return to hell if he didn’t do what they wanted. Dean believed that he was the one to kill Lilith, because that is what the angels told him. However, Sam killing Lilith and the Apocalypse being averted would have given Dean a better/easier choice. He would not need to keep hunting to avert the Apocalypse.

    Do you believe that Sam killing Lilith takes away Dean's agency? Using that logic, Sam killing any monster is taking away Dean’s agency!

    Sam was dying because he was brain dead and his internal organs were burned. Dean bringing him back averted the natural order, and with devastating consequences, something Sam clearly stated he did not want. And it would be fairly futile for Sam to blow his own brains out because Dean has said he’d do the same thing again!

    Maybe Dean found it hard to settle into a normal world because he believed that Sam was suffering in the Cage. However, if Sam was out and happy, maybe in college or whatever, then it might be easier for him to get out of hunting, if that is what he wanted.

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  54. Tom Keiferlover22 February 2014 at 21:06

    Sam might have been trying to spark up a conversation, because of the last few minutes from the previous episode, they still might be a little tense.

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  55. chris68422 February 2014 at 21:16

    I'm with you on this one. This is the most realistic of a reaction we've gotten to friction in a while. While this maybe isn't the storyline I would have chosen if the choice was mine to make, I'm thrilled that Sam is actually having a reaction, rather than having a half episode of quiet sulking, and then being just fine the next episode. They're brothers and they need to push back for this to be realistic, like how the relationship felt in the earlier seasons. And I don't mean to put all of the focus on Sam. They both took shots at each other here - it's just that Sam's comment is the one people in this thread seem to be negatively focusing on.

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  56. Tina M.22 February 2014 at 21:40

    Just because you didn't buy Sam's redemption doesn't mean he didn't make amends for screwing things up in s4. For EDGs like you no matter what good he does, it will never be enough. He spent all of s5 loathing himself and trying to earn Dean's trust again. When exactly did he treat Dean like crap in seasons 5&6? Because you talk about s6 mentioning that he treated Dean like crap even after he got his soul back.
    As for the demon blood, he started drinking to get revenge from Lilith for Dean's death. He was lost after losing Dean and Ruby found his weak spot and manipulated him.
    It's sad that the writers gave Sam haters some very good reasons to continue hating on Sam but the truth is that you would hate him anyway.
    "It's not as though as he suddenly started acting like this" But it is. Because the Sam we know is the one who sacrificed his sanity to be next to his brother -"You know me, you know why. I'm not leaving my brother alone out there" It's the Sam who decided to do the trials so Dean could live.
    I believe that there is a plan behind Sam's OOC behaviour. Most likely he will end up saving Dean and not staying true to his words that he would let him die. But I'm sure that even then, you will find a reason to not buy his actions.

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  57. Tina M.22 February 2014 at 21:58

    "You want to hate Dean? You go right ahead"
    More than you hate Sam? Don't think so...
    You post is full of the classic EDG bitterness that Sam "stole" Dean's mytharc with the trials. Sam never claimed he could do them better. All he said is that he would try to survive from them, while he was sure that Dean would see them as a suicide mission. He wanted nothing different than what Dean wanted for him: his brother to live. You are so blinded by your Sam hate that all you heard in Sam's confession was him telling Dean that he chose others over him. You didn't hear him saying that his biggest sin was letting Dean down over and over again (and that's why Dean turned to other people) and that he couldn't bear let him down once again.
    So, why is it a crime for Sam wanting to die? Just because when he started the trials his plan was to live? So what? In the end he was so tired, physically and emotionally that he didn't care if he'd die, especially if this was going to be good for the world.

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  58. Nick22 February 2014 at 22:13

    Amen to this, sister!

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  59. sharonally22 February 2014 at 22:33

    The only coward here is you , what do you think happened here , you think by dragging up last season or spitting out venom at Sam that is somehow changes what Dean did. There is no Sam wrong here that cowardly hypocrite that you so gallantly accuse him of was violated and that is on Dean. This is season 9 not season 8 and no I disagree Dean has learnt .

    Spit all you want .

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  60. Nick22 February 2014 at 22:34

    "Beating up more on Dean is neither new nor innovative"



    Neither is beating up more on Sam, but that's never stopped you!


    In relation to Dean 'learning harsh lessons', he's being taught them, but he's definitely not learning them. If he was he wouldn't keep doing the same thing again and again.

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  61. sharonally22 February 2014 at 22:36

    We are not talking about last season but this one .

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  62. CyanaT22 February 2014 at 22:56

    I totally agree with your whole comment. Wonderfully stated. The brothers' drama feels much less contrived this season than last. Beyond some relatively minor clumsy dialog for the first time in a few years I can see where both brothers 'are coming from'. I even have some admiration for the writers that they're not going for 'easy fix' this time with either brother quickly (within an episode or two) conceding that the other was right all along and other wrong. Because from a perspective of their prior characterizations both are right on some points and both wrong on some others and I think it's from not really knowing the others' values as much as he thinks he does.

    It's likely (and it's been hinted at by JP - I think) that one or several significant events will occur to cause one or both to re-evaluate their relationship... hopefully it's going to be for the positive because as much as I'm trying to come to terms with their 'split' for now I don't think Carver intends to draw the 'split' out beyond the S9 finale into S10 - too many fans were drawn into the bro relationship in the first place, unless there's a plan already in place to make S10 the last season. If this is the case, why bother the show beyond next episode then (i.e., why bother continuing watching if the brothers are going to 'just reluctantly teamed co-workers' from 'now' until S10, 'Final Season') ?

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  63. CyanaT22 February 2014 at 23:22

    X10!

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  64. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 23:41

    Sam had no reason to believe Dean was dead. He just assumed it because it was more convenient to run off seeking normal in an adulterous relationship with a nasty woman.

    And he basically told Kevin to get over it. Nor did he show much remorse about it to Dean, either. It's probably best we not get into his raging jealousy against Benny.

    And yes, he did steal the Trials from Dean. He came in, killed the hell hound (after abandoning a person in peril after Dean explicitly told him to protect the civilians), and then insisted on finishing the Trials himself, including a rousing speech about how he was going to be so much better at it because he intended to live through it. Whereupon, he needed to have his hand held through the last two Trials and ultimately decided to not finish the third. Dean was willing to go find another hell hound and start all over again (not like they had a deadline they had to meet), but nooooo. Sam insisted on doing them himself.

    This is not something you can blame back up the line. This is Sam utterly failing to protect Kevin, utterly failing to look for Dean, utterly failing to show any remorse over it (so he certainly didn't show any desire to change the behavior that led to those actions), doubling-down with his vendetta against Benny, and now blaming Dean for "stopping" him from doing the Trials. Last I saw, that was Sam's decision. And Sam's decision, plus his rant about how Dean didn't trust him anymore (which also came directly from his actions post-season seven), led directly to Dean 1. assuming Sam wanted to live and 2. feeling he owed it Sam to save his life, no matter what.

    Now, I don't mind Dean making mistakes or scary decisions because there are always consequences that lead to good drama. That's one reason why I'm having a good time watching season nine. I do mind Sam making mistakes or scary decisions and having them swept under the rug. That does *not* lead to good drama and is the only really crappy part of the season for me. That just leads to me wondering why I should bother to continue to like this character.

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  65. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 23:44

    "More than you hate Sam? Don't think so... "

    I think you've already said more than I have to about your own bitterness toward Dean. Because it's all about the competition between the two brothers for you, I see.

    Me, I would *prefer* to like both leads of a show if they are going to be onscreen every single episode. It's not absolutely necessary, but it would be more fun. Unfortunately, the way the writers write Sam, it's very hard to do that.

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  66. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 23:45

    "I will not have Sam victim blamed for choices that were made"

    Oh, get over yourself. There's not a thing you can do to stop anybody blaming a fictional character for anything.

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  67. Paula R. Stiles22 February 2014 at 23:48

    Excuse me? Did you just insult a complete stranger over their opinion about a *fictional* character on a TV show? And...spitting?!

    Way to lose an Internet argument and any moral high ground, there. That's just incredibly immature. Talk about overinvested.

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  68. Ginger23 February 2014 at 01:56

    The problem with Sam wanting to die is that it means he wants to retire his "hero" mantel. Others may be okay with cheering on a hero who doesn't want to be a hero, but I am not. I much prefer cheering on someone who tries and tries; someone who just keeps going; and that person is Dean, not Sam. In fact, for the entire series, Sam has been shown as one who wants to get out of the hero role and get away from his family. When he stays in to 'get the job done,' he screws up and blames Dean. An occasional, I'm sorry doesn't do it for me because he just keeps doing the same thing over and over again; that same thing being that he is condescending to Dean and makes everything all about Sam. This season's story is no different. Sam has made the "you let an angel possess me and you lied to me" all about him and nothing else.
    In the case of the trials, apparently Sam skipped the part where Kevin said the trials would be a "self-sacrifice" mission. Dean heard that, and that is why he wanted to do the trials. It was Sam who assigned Dean as going on a suicide mission, and he assigned his role as 'leading Dean into the light' of a better future...hope was what he was talking about. So where as that hope gone? I'll tell you where; nowhere. Dean wouldn't let him die. Dean took a choice away from him was his words, and that choice was to give up.
    As far as confessing to letting Dean down, yes he did, and I thought that finally meant Sam was reaching a belated redemption. Not so when S9 started. No, he chose death (Sam's same old habit of running away) and now he is pissed off because Dean did not let him go. What a hero.
    I think the show also gave clear reasons in the first part of S9 as to why Dean allowed the possession, which is more than I can say for Sam just walking away from Dean and Kevin for a year or even wanting to run away at the beginning of this season. I also think the show made it clear that Dean was worried about GadZeke, and throughout the first part that suspicion grew up until the point that GadZeke broke the terms of the agreement between he and Dean. That is on Gad; not Dean.

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  69. Ana Paula23 February 2014 at 01:58

    No vote down from me AT ALL!!! You sad at all... people can say (yeah it should have ended on season 5 and i respect their opinion) but we have to be honest, after all this season, after Dick on season 7, Supernatural still makes all of us come back week after week. Like you said "how 10 seconds clip triggers such a discussion." That's the Supernatural we fell in love in the first place, how many times we spent hours talking and thinking about theories?? In the end of the day, as long as "Saving People, hunting things...The Family business" still applies we will be here.

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  70. fazziemodo23 February 2014 at 07:21

    The angels didn't threaten to throw him back until Anna. Dean until that point could have told them to go and get stuffed.


    As for Sam killing Lilith taking away Dean's agency. He may have said to Chuck the he wanted to help his brother but he spent a whole season telling others and under the influence of the psiren Dean himself that Dean was different and incapable. That is chipping away at Dean's self esteem, it is a slow way to take away Dean's agency for Sam to do what Sam had been wanting to do since Dean got killed. He might not have been doing it consciously and using it as a rational for his own motives but in the end that is what he was doing. It just wasn't a one off sudden big decision like Gadreel was. It was a slow trickle and it allowed Sam not to really deal with the brother in front of him because Dean was incapable of doing this big task that the angels were asking of him, so Sam would 'have' to do it and that was a big job and Sam had to focus on that and get his hands dirty and in time Dean would appreciate it and understand.


    As for Sam dying yes his organs were burned but he wasn't completely brian dead. Brain dead would have meant he was gone and Gadreel wouldn't have been life support, he would have just been bringing Sam back. It is a slight difference, though I suppose you can argue that it was subverting the natural order because Sam was talking to Death. Personally I don't think that was the real Death but Sam's head Death. I'm not saying that Death wouldn't come for Sam but at that point Death seemed to be without some of his bells and whistles so was probably more Sam's vision than reality.


    As for Dean and the normal - In the vision with the Djinn, their mother was alive, Sam was in college, their dad died a peaceful death and all Dean had to do was build a relationship with Sam, which he stated he wanted to do. He didn't got through the existential crisis until he got to the warehouse. But what got him to that warehouse - the ghost of the girl and finding out the people they saved were dead. Yes when he settled in season 5 he was tired but the only reason he stayed was the promise to Sam while Sam was in the cage. He said it himself he put Lisa and Ben through hell. He didn't go to the min the right frame of miind to settle and Sam being at college as seen in the Djinn episode isn't a guarantee he'd give up hunting because at neither point had Dean found his balance. Bobby told him that they didn't tell him about Sam because he was out - Dean's response was to ask did it look like he was truly out, and he wasn't because in his mind he was still one foot in to the point he'd go crawling around warehouses after going out for a beer and almost shot a Yorkie for crying out loud.

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  71. sharonally23 February 2014 at 08:30

    Dean had Sam possessed for his reasons whatever Gadreel did was on Dean . If Sam wanted to die that was Sam's choice Dean decided otherwise and not for the best reasons. Dean can be suspicious all he wants he knew what he was doing and getting suspicious after the non-consent possession of Sam is a little like shutting the stable door after horse as bolted.

    I thought the show made it clear that what Dean did was dubious at best and a violation and worst and not on Sam because of any confession or wanting to die . If what he did was a hero's action he would not of lied to Sam , then had him tortured and then allowed to beings to possess his brother at the same time to try to undo what he knew was wrong in the first place .

    Sam not looking has little to do with what Dean did and any decision Dean has made .

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  72. Tina M.23 February 2014 at 09:30

    Bitterness towards Dean? LOL! I'm not a Sam or a Dean girl! Those who know me, know that I love the brothers EQUALLY. Tell me where exactly in my post I sounded bitter about Dean please! Unless you think that defending Sam automatically means bashing Dean. Which might be the case for you but it definitely is not for me.
    For the record I agree with Dean's actions for the very first to the very last. I never saw him violating Sam's freedom or wishes, all I saw was unconditional love for Sam but I also understand Sam being mad at Dean (although I don't agree with his harsh words, but like I said, I believe there is a bigger plan behind these words).
    Must be a real shocker for you that a fan can love both brothers equally. You should try it though. You would enjoy the show more!

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  73. Aline23 February 2014 at 09:34

    So when Dean wants to do the trials, then he’s a hero. When Sam wants to do them then he’s not. If Dean wants to die then he’s a hero, if Sam wants to die then he’s running away. That makes zero sense.

    So, Dean is a hero to you because he tries and tries and keeps going. However, he does that knowing that his actions cost others their lives? Is this what you like cheering, someones actions leading to the deaths of other people? Ginger, sometimes to win a war you have to intentionally lose a battle. Sometimes to win you have to stop fighting. Sam is willing to do that, Dean isn’t. Sam is willing to sacrifice what he wants for the greater good, Dean isn’t. That doesn’t make Dean heroic in the slightest. Add to that, can only hunters be heroes for you? If, for example, Sam wants to be a doctor and save lives that way, is that nor heroic for you?

    Sam isn’t doing the same thing over and over again. Last season showed that. It’s why there was such uproar, because he didn’t do what he was expected to do. Dean is actually the one who is doing the
    same thing over and over again, and who states that he will keep on doing it.

    Who do you think this ‘Sam has made the "you let an angel possess me and you lied to me" all about him and nothing else” should be about! Blimey, when it’s being discussed you put the fault on Sam, when Sam discusses it you’re criticising him because he’s not making it all about someone else! Do you think Dean’s actions should only be
    discussed in the positive, and not in the negative? Sam knows why Dean did what he did but that doesn’t mean he has to agree with it, appreciate it or not try and stop it from happening again. Should we just let
    sociopathic serial killers walk free because that’s just what they do? Add to that, Sam is not making it all about him because he's discussing what he sees as being Deans reasons for doing it. If Sam was making it all about him he'd spend half a season kicking Dean and telling him how much he let him down etc etc, kind of like how Dean was last season.

    Also, everything is a self-sacrifice mission on Supernatural. Hunting in
    itself is about self sacrifice. Sacrificing self is easy, what is harder is sacrificing your brother. However, would you mind telling me the episode
    where Kevin said that. I’m interested in the context in which he said it.
    Thanks.

    After confessing what he felt was his greatest sin he decided to not ‘let Dean down again’ by finishing the trials. However, when his death became inevitable (and Sam will inevitably die some day, will he
    be letting Dean down then again?) he accepted that.

    The reasons why Dean did what he did are not at all clear. If they were then they wouldn’t be discussed. Did Dean ‘save’ Sam for Sam, or for Dean?

    And Ginger, nothing is ever on Dean for you! (And then you complain that it's all about someone else!)

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  74. Aline23 February 2014 at 10:38

    fazziemodo, if you had just discovered the existence of angels because they had just pulled you out of hell and they said they needed your help, would you tell them to get stuffed?

    Sam spent a whole season telling others that Dean was incapable? Really, a whole season? Do detail them, please. Also, if he said it to Dean while under the influence of the siren then he only said it to Dean once. However, realistically, is there any validity in what Sam said, that Dean was different after hell (who wouldn’t be?) and was too weak to go after Lilith (understandable considering what Lilith did to him. If a person is tortured for years it’s wholly unrealistic to expect them to easily face down the person who subjected them to that. Look at how hesitant Dean was to torture Alastair)?


    Yeah, the angels were telling Dean he was the one to do it but they were giving him no direction. Dean didn’t want Sam to go after Lilith but what was the reason why? Sam was the one who was being trained, he was killing high level demons with ease so logically Sam was better equipped to kill Lilith than Dean. So I guess the question is (and one that should be considered this season as well) was what Sam said untrue, or was what Sam said shocking and hard to hear but true?

    In relation to ‘not dealing with the brother that was in front of him’, do you think he should have put trying to stop the Apocalypse aside to help Dean deal with the aftereffects of hell ? Not only has a Winchester never done that but considering the circumstances, was it even feasible at the time? There would have been plenty of time to help Dean deal with the psychological trauma after the Apocalypse was ended. Sam was trying to help Dean then by taking the load off him.

    (If what you say is true, that Sam was subconsciously taking way Dean’s agency, then isn’t that remarkably like Dean is season 9 when he was
    telling Sam that he was getting knocked out again, and how he had to save his ass again. Was Dean doing that to undermine Sam’s confidence and to take agency away from him?)

    The doctor said that the machines were keeping him alive. That it was in God’s hands. That if he continued on this trajectory he’d be dead. What subverted the natural order was angelic intervention.

    He certainly wasn’t out then because he was in Bobby’s house with Sam, Ben and Lisa. However, hypothetical question, if Sam was alive and well and had a good relationship with Dean and doing something that he loved, do you think Dean would find it easier to get out of hunting, if that is what he wanted to do? It won’t mean that he will, it won't dismiss the fact that he was once a hunter and so still has those instincts, it just means that he won't look for hunts but if a hunt arrives on his door then he'll deal with it. I mean, if a policeman retires should he not investigate if he thinks there is someone prowling around outside his house? If a lifeguard retires should they not help someone who is drowning etc? Dean can’t cast aside the hunter training but there’s nothing that states that because he was a hunter, he can only ever be a hunter. Dean can get out of the hunting life, if that is what he wants.

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  75. Tina M.23 February 2014 at 11:03

    "Not so when S9 started. No, he chose death (Sam's same old habit of running away"

    No, he didn't choose death, he chose Dean. Yes, he was ready to die but in the end he chose to live for Dean. Blaming Dean later for that choice was stupid, because it was his choice to live, even if Dean tricked him. Would he made that choice if he knew what was Dean's plan? Obviously not and Dean knew that, that's why he had to trick him.
    Dean was wrong to have Sam possessed, but I can't blame him because it was either this or Sam would die and we all know that Dean would never let this happen (also there would be no show anymore if Sam died). Sam was right to feel mad at Dean but he should at least understand why his brother did it and not be such an ass to him.
    And no matter what he said to Dean, I believe that he would do exactly the same if the situation was reversed.
    That's how the brothers act, that's what the show is about. Codependency was never meant to be healthy but that's why many of us loved the show.

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  76. fazziemodo23 February 2014 at 11:25

    If my parents, friends and myself had died at the hands of demons, my life had been one of constant fear and insecurity and danger and then they raise me from the dead and tell me that they did it because they have work for me to do, well the human in me might feel a compulsion to tell them to take a flying leap because where the hell have they been the rest of my life. That they just help me when they want something done by me.


    I think it would be understandable after the pain and terror that Dean had lived through to be slightly pissed at them and if he told them to take a jump it would be understandable. But he didn't.


    As for telling people Dean was incapable - Chuck, telling Dean that only dicks got infected with the ghost fever and then when Dean asked why Sam didn't get infected Sam's joking reply was something about him not being a dick. When Bobby asked where Dean was Sam's response wasn't he'd started having hallucinations from the disease but I believe the wording was 'home sick'.


    How many times did Sam and Ruby say that Dean would understand Sam's actions.


    Sam may have been busy with the apocalypse but at least he should admit that he was too busy with dealing with his feelings with that to deal with the brother who had PTSD and dealing with the fact he'd been picked by angels. Instead we got that in part Sam was doing things for Dean.


    I said it isn't conscious by Sam, but his action don't exactly help his brother through the hard time he is having after hell because he is focused on Lilith and his anger and the apocalypse and drinking Ruby. Look at monster movie. Dean asking to do a simple vamp hunt and Sam isn't happy. Why did Dean ask that. It isn't just because they have no apocalypse leads but because for him it is a kind of holiday from the rest of their lives.


    Another subtle hint that Sam taking Lilith out so Dean will have a normal life isn't really done for Dean. Because he isn't seeing or listening to what Dean is saying or doing. It makes Sam's life easier if Dean doesn't hunt, it gives Sam a peaceful life if he quits after Lilith. Because if the apocalypse was it then the alphas wouldn't have been a problem, neither would have the Levi's etc. So Sam's assessment was wrong killing Lilith at any point wouldn't have cured anything, something else would have been out there and because Sam never actually had a real proper talk and listened to his brother he would have gotten that simply taking out the bad things or making his brother make a promise would not stop Dean being on some level wanting to stop that.

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  77. fazziemodo23 February 2014 at 13:30

    No the angels didn't take Dean's family or friends Aline. But the angels sat out of the fight with demons until they wanted Dean to do something for them. John, Pastor Jim and the other hunters may have died because they were hunters but what about Jess? What about Mary because at that point Dean didn't know she was a hunter or had made a deal. To Dean at the point of the angel introduction Mary was an innocent victim.


    The traditional view is that angels and demons oppose each other, to Dean in the first three seasons he and us had seen no evidence the angels did squat to stop the demons or do anything. Then they turn up and bust him out when they want something. Are you saying because God is involved Dean can't be pissed at him and his angels for not doing anything to stop the evil that destroyed his childhood and other people?


    Also I have to say I have looked after the elderly. Worked in rest homes and stroke wards. I have seen people give the wrong type of help, I've even done it, it is very easy to do. Over compensating with the practical things doesn't help and it isn't done because you are trying to be mean but because it gets them done (staff) or gives the person giving the help a sense that they are doing something (the family/friends) but in the end the person who receives the help is still being treated as helpless and not being rehabilitated even though it makes those around them frustrated and confused watching them take time over things you think you can get over and done with in half the time.


    Oh and Sam stating he wasn't sick because he wasn't a dick when Dean asked, just after Sam told him the connecting thing between the victims were they were all dicks. It implies that Sam also thinks that Dean is a bit of a dick. Dean can be one but it is insensitive and hardly life affirming to Dean for Sam to say that.

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  78. Ginger23 February 2014 at 14:37

    There is no misquoting involved. Dean, the brother (ex-brother now in Sam's mind), is the only "family" Sam has left, and Sam wants a 'professional partner,' not a brother and, using his reasoning, that will solve all "their" problems.
    That makes no sense at all, since as long as they work together, there will still be problems, whether that be from demons and angels using them against each other or whether it be any more problems that arises between "them." Working together as professional partners solves nothing, except Sam has Dean close so that he can continue to act condescending and snark at Dean...or they can snark at each other, if you wish. The only thing that makes sense in Sam's reasoning is that the brothers should immediately split, and I would rather that happen now and be a permanent thing. That would easily solve the problem -- Sam can do whatever he wants; die, retire, hunt alone, and Dean's mental health could improve because he is away from Sam.

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  79. Ginger23 February 2014 at 14:59

    Sam didn’t seem to think that Dean’s pregnancy comment was
    nasty. Your reasoning is a pretty big
    stretch. I could even argue that Sam
    (the super smart Sam) just found out that his brother was marked by a biblical
    immortal dating back to the beginning of time, the first murderer actually, and
    he showed no interest in what that might mean at all.

    And why would you even ask if I were one who believes that
    everything Dean does is Sam’s fault?
    Dean doesn’t think that at all, so why should I. Dean readily accepts responsibility…and
    accountability…for things he does and things that he is not even responsible
    for.

    I have no problem with Dean drinking. He lives in a violent, vicious, dangerous
    world and has never gotten recognition or appreciation for what he does,
    especially from the one person he longs to have recognize his (Dean’s) worth as
    a person and as a hunter. Besides, I
    could care less about a hero who doesn’t want to be a hero; a hero whose go-to
    is to run away from his problems and his role in those problems. I did have a New York minute of thinking Sam
    had finally lived up to his actions in 8.23, but that quickly went away when,
    in fact, Sam was choosing death as a way to get out. That is just another form of running away,
    and now his reason for that is that Dean and he are “family.” That is a direct assault on the very “personhood”
    of Dean so; yes, Sam is blaming Dean again and it is a vicious attack this
    time.

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  80. Aline23 February 2014 at 15:12

    Um, what about Mary and Jess? Sure they were innocent (or Jess was) but what differentiates them from the countless vessels the demons (and angels) possess? What about all the victims of monsters who are killed every day? What about those who die in house fires or accidents or because of illness. Should angels get involved in all those cases? Do you believe that Dean should have refused to work with the angels because demons killed his mother?

    In the first three seasons Dean didn’t know angels existed. Dean can be pissed but why would that stop him from helping? He wanted to be out of hell so I find it illogical to think that he would turn his back on those that got him out.

    Hypothetical situation, you call to a person’s house and there’s no food, no heat etc there. Would you just sit and talk to them or would
    you light a fire and run out and get them something to eat? In other words, which do you take care of first; their immediate needs (food and heat) or their mind? As you seem to have worked as a care worker
    (or what we call a care worker) I’m assuming you’re familiar with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs which deems physiological needs (food, water, shelter, warmth) as being those which need to be met first before you meet the rest, which makes sense because there’s not much point focusing on a person’s mental state while that person starves to death.

    Sam probably does think Dean is a bit of a dick. Dean certainly thinks Sam is, he’s called him one often enough! It could also be considered insensitive for Dean to refer to Sam a freak, but he did it anyway. Why? Because that’s what brothers do, they take the p*ss out of each other. It doesn’t mean they don’t love each other.

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  81. Aline23 February 2014 at 16:15

    It wasn’t a stretch at all. Dean made a remark that equated Gadreel leaving grace in him as being akin to some careless teenager who got pregnant. Note, he didn’t say anything about the role he played in that grace being there in the first place.

    Perhaps Sam didn’t give the reaction to the Mark of Cain that you wanted him to because he was, like Dean is season 5, 'numb to the
    earth-shattering revelations at this point'. He had just overcome possession by an angel and a demon, having his mind constantly wiped, Kevin dying by his hands, been tortured by Crowley and the realisation
    that his brother was responsible for all of it. Perhaps if Dean has seemed a little more panicky about the Mark of Cain then Sam might have had more of a reaction, but Dean didn’t even tell him about it until Sam asked and he was fairly disinterested when he was telling him what
    it is.

    I asked you that because you said that Sam is his ‘same, condescending self’. You then encouraged Dean to keep drinking because you understood why he was. That remark came straight after your comment about Sam so do you believe that Dean is drinking because of what Sam said.

    In relation to accepting responsibility and accountability, mileage
    varies there. Dean rarely accepts responsibility for the role he played in starting the Apocalypse. He blamed Sam for Dean sending the text, and
    also for Amy, saying that he had to kill her because Dean couldn’t. He feels guilty plenty, but accepting responsibility and accountability not so
    much.

    Dean has gotten plenty of recognition and appreciation. Season 9 Sam thanked him for what he did in Bad Boys, last season he told him that he was the best hunter he’d ever seen, better than him and John. Charlie
    credits Dean with stopping the Apocalypse, as did Lisa (and Dean never
    mentioned the role Sam played in stopping it) I wonder if Dean will at any stage recognise Sam’s worth as a person and as a hunter, and not merely as a baby brother, to be 'saved' which seems to be the only way that he sees him.

    So, once again, you’re arguing Sam choosing death is running away (what exactly was Sam running from when he agreed to go with Death?) but Dean choosing death is him being a hero. Fairly large double standards you’ve got, Ginger!

    Sam isn’t ‘running away’ because they are family. It might have escaped your attention but not only was Dean the one who left in the first place, and later lied to him to try to get him off the case in Sharp Teeth, but Sam is very much with Dean at the moment. He hasn’t run away (despite having plenty of reason to), he’s the one who is acknowledging there is problems in their relationship and he wants to work on them so that they can have a relationship.

    Sam is blaming family for their problems, not Dean. He said that being family is the reason for everything that has gone wrong between them, and it is. Dean made a deal for Sam, his family. Sam wanted to kill Lilith, for family. Dean let an angel (and a demon) possess his brother because he wanted his family alive. Dean wouldn’t let anyone else do this. Dean actively stopped Kevin from looking for his mother, and Samuel from bringing back his daughter but Dean has no qualms about doing it for his own family.He’s also saying that Dean using the ‘we’re family’ excuse as a reason for Dean to do whatever he wants, regardless of the consequences shouldn't be some sort of cure all.

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  82. fazziemodo23 February 2014 at 16:24

    Dean isn't that petty or short sighted but you have mentioned how he's called Sam a freak. Can you please make up your mind. Remember why exactly I mentioned Dean could have told the angels to go an stick it. It was because you said that without the apocalypse Dean could have quit hunting and had a long life and I said that Dean had an opportunity to do that before he knew the apocalypse started at the point he met Cas. Do you remember that.


    The reason I said that was because you said that Sam going after Lilith before the seals were all broken meant him and Dean could have a long life. That was when I said it took away from Dean's agency because Sam took no account of what Dean had been telling him about what he wanted or really needed. But Sam thought Dean would be grateful for his actions.


    It seems we have gotten into a circular discussion here and it is going nowhere.


    Also when is someone considering you a 'dick' mean that you are a wonderful person. People tend to be called a dick in the show when they have done something, well dickish. Also it was a ghost disease that was going after in Sam's words 'dicks' it wasn't going after people who had donated kidneys to people they didn't know.

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  83. Aline23 February 2014 at 18:34

    Sam wanted to do the trials so that Dean could have a future, see a light at the end of the tunnel. He knew that Dean was suicidal so he didn’t want Dean to do the trials because by Dean being suicidal, he would not make an effort to save himself. Dean wanted his ‘perfect ending’ of Sam living, so he took measures to get it by deciding he was going to be the doing the trials. It was irrelevant to Dean as to whether or not he was the best person to do the trials, and logically, someone who is suicidal is not someone you would send on a mission like that. Both Sam and Dean wanted to do the trials to ‘end it once and for all and many, many others would be saved’. Sam wanting to bring hope to Dean by them both living at the end of it is not being 'self-righteous’. (I'm sure you'd also be complaining if Sam didn't try to stop Dean doing the trials because he would show that he doesn't care if Dean lives or dies.) And again, would you mind telling me what episode that ‘self-sacrifice thing’ was from.

    So anyone who is at peace with dying, anyone who doesn’t want others hurt because they live is the ultimate quitter for you. Good to know. I’m wondering how those who are fighting terminal illnesses etc are feeling right now, to know that being at peace with their inevitable death is considered ‘quitting’ by you.

    Sam was okay with dying because experience taught him that
    messing with the natural order inevitably brings devastating consequences. He doesn’t consider his life more important than anyone elses. That doesn't sound very 'self-righteous'.

    Also, what you constantly call ‘running away’ could also be
    called ‘running to’. Why, for you, is choosing not to hunt, going
    to Stanford, wanting to go on different hunts to Dean, not doing what Dean wants him to do ‘running away’? If Dean 'running away' from normal life by wanting to hunt?

    If Dean is okay with other people dying to get what he wants then it’s not stupid, it’s short-sighted, and ultimately it’s a mentality as monstrous as those of the monsters he kills.

    Hunters like Garth, Charlie and Krissy could save the world in
    their own way. They could save lives their own way. You might not approve of them or consider them unworthy, but I doubt that would matter if they got the job done. It’s also quite probable that the actions of Garth, Charlie, Krissy etc wouldn’t doom the world or cause bigger problems, as Sam and Dean’s actions often have.

    Sam is ‘attacking’ (as you decide to put it) Dean’s perception of himself as Sam’s saviour. Sam doesn’t want or need a saviour. He would like a brother, but it's arguable as to whether Dean has an interest in that. He doesn’t seem to think of Sam as his equal because Dean considering Sam his equal means that he would have to let go of control over Sam, and this is something Dean is reluctant to do.

    And just wondering, how many times must you say that you're 'done' with Sam before you stop talking about him??

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  84. spnmonster24 February 2014 at 14:13

    To be fair, Sam didn't know what the Mark of Cain meant either. Dean doesn't even really know what the consequences are. They were both wary and guarded with each other for good reason. Sam was underwhelmed by the revelation about the MOC, and Dean was insensitive about Gadreel's grace being left in Sam. That was a disgusting joke.

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  85. spnmonster24 February 2014 at 14:21

    If Carver separates the permanently that would be sacrilege -- a waste of however many seasons this gets dragged out. If he gives us an HEA, there won't be enough bourbon in Kentucky to rinse the taste of vomit out of my mouth. I don't know, maybe the boys could actually mature, talk to each other, fix their relationship, and become the badass hunting team they should have become after S6. They could work together to close the gates of heaven and hell and go down together bloody and fighting like Butch and Sundance -- retire to that shared heaven Winchesterland that Ash talked about in Dark Side of the Moon.

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  86. spnmonster24 February 2014 at 14:42

    "you let an angel possess me and you lied to me" all about him and nothing else.
    Yeah, because it was all about him. It was about Dean going against what he knew Sam would have chosen (otherwise he would have asked), it was about Dean gaslighting him for months and letting him think he was losing his mind AGAIN. It's about the fact that defying the natural order (Sam was meant to die a natural death) always results in the death of someone else as Dean learned in "Appointment in Samarra." It baffles me that some fans can't wrap their head around why that's a problem for Sam.

    And Sam wasn't so much running away as he was accepting the inevitable. You have to remember that he was going to fight until he realized that "Dean" didn't have a plan. He was making a deal with Death because he was making his peace with dying, but when Dean/Gadreel showed up with a plan, Sam accepted it. He's never said he wanted to die, just that he was "ready" and "willing" to die. He was meant to in the natural order. Dean defied that again, and Kevin is dead because of it. From what we know, someone must be dead because he had Charlie resurrected as well.

    And look, I'm not saying Dean is a horrible person because of what he did. Given the situation, Dean did exactly as we would expect him to despite knowing that there would be consequences exactly like the ones that have occurred. He is willing to let innocent people die for Sam. That's who he is -- right or wrong.

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  87. spnmonster24 February 2014 at 15:27

    Sam is now attacking Dean's very essence

    I don't see how this is different from what Dean did to Sam last season. Sam thought Dean was dead and per their agreement, didn't try to resurrect him. In response, Dean threw every mistake Sam ever made in his face and claimed that a vampire he'd met less than a year earlier was a better brother to him. Sam is reacting in much the same way now to what he perceives as a betrayal.

    Look, they love each other deeply and no one can hurt them the way they hurt each other. They seesaw back and forth as the "kicked dog" as Carver put it last season. I really don't understand fans who see one as villain and one as victim. I see fans on Tumblr arguing that Dean is and has been abusive since the beginning. He's just now revealing himself to be like John. And here fans argue with equal vehemence that Sam is a self-centered, ungrateful quitter.

    Wow. I'm glad I don't see either of them in such simplistic terms. I'm angry at both of them in equal measure if not always simultaneously. Neither sees the other's point of view (just as fans don't). They are different people with different motivations and emotional/psychological wounds. They react to things differently, and deal with their issues in differing ways. But they love each other. That's why, no matter what happens, how they hurt each other, they are drawn back together.

    They agreed to work together again at the end of "Sharp Teeth" because it was easier dealing with the "crap" together -- that's man speak for what Jody said referred to as finding "comfort" in one another.

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  88. sue24 February 2014 at 16:11

    We get it Sam wanted to die but where was Sam's reaper??? Death is not going to retrieve anyone that is what reapers do. Bobby had one; Dean had one if Sam was on the brink where was his reaper. He wouldn't have been able to have a sit down and make a deal Dean tried that with Tessa but that was more wanting to be back in his body but Tessa was not putting him there and whatever happend happend. So as much as sam thinks he could have made a deal with death nothing would have prevented what would have happend. And Death said well played not sure to who? But if Sam wanted to go so badly where was his reaper to prevent anything from happening??? Someone really powerful saved Dean from going with Tessa.This has been bothering me.

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  89. spnmonster24 February 2014 at 16:31

    I guess we don't know that Death was really Death in 9.01(in the same way that Bobby and Dean were constructs of Sam's mind), but if it was actually Death, I don't see that there's any reason he can't choose to reap a soul himself, if he chose to do so. Reapers work for him after all (except those pesky rogues *eyeroll*). I agree that Sam's death was really inevitable if that's what Death was after. I wonder, however, if Death doesn't prefer the Winchesters alive for his own reasons. He finds them interesting on cosmic scale (how boring existence must be for one so old and alone), and he may have reasons of his own for wanting them mucking with heaven and hell.

    He said, "well played, my boy" to Sam. Who else would he have been talking to? Here's the thing about Dean not going with Tessa, can a demon deal prevent a soul from going to heaven? Because it was John's demon deal that saved Dean from dying, which seems to imply that Dean would have gone to hell the first time around, broken the first seal, and started the road to the apocalypse? John selling his soul only delayed the inevitable since Dean's deal to bring Sam continued them on that slippery slope?

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  90. Aline24 February 2014 at 17:54

    Death is a reaper. As he said in 'Meet the New Boss' "I had a tingle I'd be reaping someone very, very soon. Don't worry - not you' (referring to the tied up couple) so Death reaps.


    Dean and Sam's dealings with reapers were different. Dean didn't want to go, Sam was trying to make his going with Death permanent.

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  91. sue24 February 2014 at 18:40

    Dean was all set to go with Tessa since his ghostly self was not getting back in his body. she said that so he was all set to go wasn't til daddy made the deal that he woke up with no memory of how he ditched reaper. But he was all set to go because he was going through the stages of wanting to stay. But he wasn't getting back in his body she said that. And i think Death was not there I still think he was part of whatever sam had going on in his head with bobby and dean both trying to talk him into leaving and accepting death and dean trying his best to talk him out even though not the real one. Of course I still find it funny no matter what idea dean came up with Sam said yes and he does have to accept that part and also accept the part he listend to dean and didn't close gates of hell. I think the moving forward will start when sam says his part. Not put blame on dean. JMO

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  92. Aline24 February 2014 at 20:51

    It was only when Tessa said about the angry spirits that Dean started to change his mind. Up until then he was adamant that he wasn't going. It was as soon as Tessa said 'What's it going to be' that John was making the deal so Dean never got the chance to answer.

    Death didn't say that Sam would get his body back either. Once the body dies, it dies. It's the soul that Death reaps. If the soul stays it becomes an angry spirit.

    He wasn't blaming Dean, he was blaming family. They both chose family and hence the gates of hell will remain open. That's the problem. Dean wouldn't have asked anyone else to do it and Sam wouldn't have agreed for anyone else. Because both Sam and Dean chose family, others will suffer.

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  93. sue24 February 2014 at 21:23

    Well if we go by the actor that plays death he wasn't really there guessing that was another one of sam's figments like dean and bobby. Yea but Dean was all set to go with Tessa until dad made the deal he thinks he should have been dead. And guessing he should know how sam is feeling right now since he went through the same emotions in S2 he should be dead; dad alive. But the one thing is why did sam agree with dean why say yes in church and why say yes to deans scheme?? I mean sam has to own up to that to dean and he hasn't; he could have said no dean let me finish what i started even if it kills me; and same with deans scheme in his head why did he not say NO he always says yes to dean. And sam has to own up to that. He has to start saying learning to say no. And guessing not saving dean is probobly a start for him but we will wait and see how season turns out to see if that holds up.

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  94. sharonally24 February 2014 at 21:36

    That was speculation on Julian's part and if Death was just a figment then there would of been no reason for Dean's panicked decision. Bobby and Dean I can imagine Sam conjuring up the head(Bobby) and the heart (Dean) but not Death.

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  95. Aline24 February 2014 at 21:46

    The actor who played Death was speculating, based on the fact that Death wasn't eating in the scene. However, he wasn't eating in many other scenes and he was most definitely real.

    Sam said yes to Dean in the church because he loves his brother and didn't want to, as he believed, let him down again. Sam said yes to Deans plan but he had to have believed that there were certain things Dean wouldn't do. Sam's thoughts on possession were made clear in previous seasons. It must have been inconceivable to Sam that Dean would do as he did. I understand why Dean did it, and I understand his motivations etc but the thing is, if Dean would do this then what else would be do?

    Yes, Sam does need to start saying no, and sticking to it. However, he said it last season and see how that ended up! It's hard to say no when everyone else is telling you that you should have said yes, and it's so much easier to say yes.

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  96. sue24 February 2014 at 21:46

    And that is why I am going with his interpretation of the events that unfolded. I mean dean has no idea what is going on in sam's head that he has been riding around with dean and bobby. but again why can't sam learn to say NO to dean. He said yes both times he has to own that. I mean if we are going to hear til the rest of the season i wanted to die its like dude you can't because then no more season 9 and 10. And this is why I am a dean girl but I am more in his corner even after what happend because of how sam is acting. sorry he starts acting his age and wants to have a real sit down with his brother then I can't wait for that mature discussion but he has not even done that. Like I said if I were dean I would be drinking to because clueless on what sam wants.

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  97. sue24 February 2014 at 21:49

    And this is why I am waiting for a mature Sam to sit down with his brother and talk out to problems without the hurtful words just two grown 30 year old men talking what is wrong in this brother relationship. I think Dean will be able to have it once sam acts mautre enough. And maybe we can dean some coffee at that time also. And like i said Sam has every right to be mad at dean but right now I don't feel sorry for him I am more angered at him then Dean and thank the writers for that.

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  98. sue25 February 2014 at 15:07

    Not trying to hate on sam and I know what Dean did last season. But I am saying this season and that the writers are not doing sam any favors. They need the sympathy to go back on sam but right now with what he is saying to dean is getting more symapthy to dean. they both know how to hurt each other that is given but yes talk about the fact he wanted to die but if he really wanted to die why go along with deans scheme to save him? He already told the one dean in his head to let go how come when gad dean shows up he says yes??? TWO LETTERS NO he needs to learn to say that to his big brother the minute he does that and stops saying yes to whatever dean says then maybe he can wear those big boy pants.

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  99. sue25 February 2014 at 21:25

    Well if Dean gets his kills up then I think one side effect of the mark. And I would like to learn more about blade and where crowley has been.

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  100. Aline8 April 2014 at 01:08

    I said Dean wouldn’t be petty or short sighted enough to refuse to help the angels (and God) because he was pissed that the angels hadn’t
    intervened when it came to Mary, Jess, himself etc. (I also said that Dean calling Sam a freak was part of brotherly banter.) I also don’t think it’s feasible that as soon as Dean got out of hell he’d have made the decision to stop hunting, especially considering his state of mind, his experiences and that hunting was all he knew at that stage. Once a soldier is brought home from an area of conflict, he doesn't automatically stop being a soldier. It takes time, because he's still in that mindset. However, were there no war going on, merely small skirmishes, the choice to stop being an active soldier might be easier.

    Don't forget, Dean's dreams showed that he wanted more than just hunting. Perhaps that dream might have been possible were there no big war (the Apocalypse) to fight.

    Doing something dickish doesn’t make someone a dick. It just means they did something someone considers dickish.

    We certainly are going around in circles. It has been fun though!

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  101. Aline8 April 2014 at 01:08

    Of course Dean is ‘allowed’ to be pissed at angels. Dean has been pissed at everyone on the show at one stage or another! I’m saying that it is illogical that he would tell angels to go get stuffed ‘because’ he’s pissed at them. Dean’s not that petty or that short sighted.

    Dean’s needs were also physical. Consider it this way; he had been a prisoner of war for 40 years where he suffered horrifically. When he got out, he was being reluctantly sent straight back into war again. Sam was trying to stop the war so that Dean wouldn't have to go back into it. Once
    the war was stopped, then Dean's psychological needs could be met. You might think this is Sam taking agency away from Dean, I don’t. I think this is trying to help him.

    Why is someone considering you a ‘dick’ mean you’re a bad person? Practically every character on the show has been called a dick (usually by Dean) and they’re not bad people.

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  102. Kate M8 April 2014 at 01:09

    I'm glad SPN is finally back. It looks like Sam and Dean conversation that happened last episode won't be mentioned, or Sam and Dean are ignoring it?

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  103. sue8 April 2014 at 01:09

    is this awkward conversation time between the two and since when does sam make references to movies? and hopefully dean calling Crowley means update on blade

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