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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

Arrow - Guilty - Review

15 Nov 2014

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Arrow, “Guilty,” was written by the team of Erik Oleson and Keto Shimizu and was directed by Peter Leto. New to Arrow, Leto’s other credits include Under the Dome and Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. This was a solid episode with some lessons to be learned by our team members. I liked how well the flashback fed into the present storyline. One thing about the episode that did concern me is how Laurel (Katie Cassidy) seems to be being isolated from the main team. I feel like even Thea (Willa Holland) who is being trained by the team’s nemesis, Malcolm (John Barrowman), has a closer connection to the team as their training all feeds back to R’as al Ghul (Matt Nable) and we’ve known them all since the first season.

We learn a lot more about Ted Grant (JR Ramirez), Laurel’s trainer, in this episode. We learn that he was a professional boxer – who held the title and was nicknamed Wildcat. In the comics universe, he’s known to have a stunt motorcycle (betting show brings that in!) and was on the Suicide Squad – as well as in Justice Society of America. Some other quick fun facts and comic references from this episode? Grant’s gym is at 9th and Hasen and Irwin Hasen co-created Wildcat in the comics. I loved Oliver (Stephen Amell) suggesting that they call Roy (Colton Haynes) Arsenal because Stanzler (Nathan Mitchell) taunted Roy with being nothing but a weapon in the Arrow’s arsenal. They’ve been looking for a good nickname for him after all! Of course the biggest comic book reference? THE BOXING GLOVE ARROW!!! Only this show could take something that sounds so hokey and gimmicky and actually make it work! Brilliant!!!

Of course, the big reveal about Ted Grant is that he used to be a vigilante. It’s the return of his protégé Stanzler that is at the heart of this week’s episode. There is a lesson for both Grant and Oliver. When you take someone under your wing, you become responsible for them. Grant maintains throughout that he’s never killed anyone, yet he does take responsibility for the man that Stanzler killed. However, that’s not really enough. He simply told Stanzler to get out of Starling City and that he never wanted to see him again. What actually happened then was Stanzler was held for months by the gang whose member he’d killed and was tortured by them. And of course, Grant didn’t know because he simply abandoned him.

This parallels what happened with Roy last season. When Oliver didn’t want to help Roy, Slade (Manu Bennett) was able to capture him and torture him by injecting him with massive amounts of mirakuru, and this is what comes back to haunt Roy in this episode. Roy is convinced by his dreams that he’s killed Sara. Haynes is excellent in this episode as we see his anguish play out. Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) refuses to believe it’s possible at first. Then she looks at the evidence from her “virtual autopsy” – is there anything our Felicity can’t do? Based on that evidence, it seems Roy might indeed have killed Sara in some last burst of mirakuru-induced psychosis.

I was a little shocked to see Diggle (David Ramsey) lobby for cutting Roy loose. However, I did like what Diggle said about justice – which also fit in nicely with the kills being accompanied by a “GUILTY” sign in blood – guilty of torturing Stanzler. But Diggle tells Oliver: “This crusade is supposed to be about justice. We can’t have two sets of rules. One for the bad guys and one for us.” After all, this is why Diggle objected to Oliver killing his targets to begin with. Grant cautions the Arrow that “playing judge and jury messes with people’s heads,” but isn’t that a lesson Oliver has also learned?

In the final fight, Roy symbolically takes on Stanzler – it’s apprentice vs apprentice, and Roy comes out the victor. It was another stunning fight. Stanzler gets some verbal blows in, including the shot about Roy just being another weapon to the Arrow. “He’s using you. The second you do something wrong, he’ll turn his back on you. He’ll abandon you.” This is Roy’s fear and he immediately asks Oliver not to abandon him. Oliver answers “Never” without hesitation. Of course, Oliver is sure – as I think the rest of us were – that Roy isn’t guilty of killing Sara. Oliver is taking his role as mentor and teacher very seriously. We see in the previously scenes that he questions why Roy’s reaction time is off, and then Oliver tell Roy to take the rest of the night off when Roy is clearly still tired and distracted. He tells him – “I wouldn’t be much of a teacher if I let you get killed because your reaction time is slow.”

We see Oliver guide Roy through the meditation technique that he learns from Tatsu (Rila Fukushima) in the flashbacks. The scenes are nicely parallel - student on the left, teacher on the right. The scene in the present is beautifully shot. Roy and Oliver sit across from each other with the candle between them. Both are in their civilian clothes – not in their disguises – but those personas are seen right behind each of them in their respective cases. It’s a nice way of closing the distance between them. I also like how the disguises are almost shrine like. It’s not something to be taken lightly or for granted – it’s something to aspire to. Unfortunately, Roy remembers killing the police officer even though he does realize he didn’t kill Sara. He tells Oliver “I am a murderer.” But that’s why we know at heart Roy is the right man for the job of protecting Starling City – he feels guilt and responsibility for what he did even though he wasn’t really in control of himself. It’s also why we know Grant is a good guy – he feels responsible and he became a vigilante in the first place to help families in the Glades feel safe.

Laurel also talks about justice in this episode, specifically by the end of the episode, she asks Grant to continue her training to find justice outside the courtroom. I think Katie Cassidy is doing a really great job this season showing Laurel’s growth. In general, I think the character is much better written this season as well. But I can’t help but be disappointed that we don’t have the Lances – Quentin (Paul Blackthorne) and Laurel – fighting the good fight from within the system. I realize she is still an ADA, but this is a clear indication of even her lack of faith in the system. But then that’s why we need superheros, isn’t it?

I loved how the fight scene between Laurel and Grant played out through the episode. She’s getting good at the basic boxing, so Grant throws in a new move and throws her to the mat. He tells her to expect surprises in a fight and not to let it rattle her. It’s the patience and calm that we’ve seen all the students have to learn. I particularly liked Cassidy’s reaction when Roy told her that he’d killed Sara – it was very controlled – not really what we might have expected. When Laurel goes back to Grant at the end of the episode, she tells him that she should have been scared and rattled when Stanzler was holding them captive, but she wasn’t. She’s proud of the fact that she did what needed to be done – she dials Felicity to give away their situation and swerves the car to dump Stanzler out.

Oliver tries to dissuade Laurel from continuing her training. She tells him that she’s not helpless and he maintains that he’s never seen her that way – he simply wants to keep her safe and protect her. I loved the scene between Arrow, Grant, and Laurel when he wants to know how they know each other and Laurel says they used to date – and Oliver rolls his eyes. But then she goes on to point out that she’s not on his team and therefore not under his control. Oliver tells her she’s playing a dangerous game which she maintains she can handle. He then points out that she can’t because she hasn’t realized it’s not a game. I think he actually under estimates her here. I think she is taking it seriously. It’s Grant that gives Laurel agency – he asks the Arrow whether he asked Laurel what she wanted when it came to her training. In a sense, by not training her – something Laurel calls him on as well, Oliver is abandoning her.

Laurel’s character continues to be somewhat uneven for me. Why doesn’t everyone assume Grant has an air-tight alibi when the ADA is vouching for him? I would have thought that Oliver and Quentin at the very least would have taken her word on it. And while it was nice to see Laurel really be instrumental in defeating Stanzler, did her driving skills have to be quite so poor? Once again we see Oliver carry her to safety from the burning car. My hope is that we will continue to see the build up of her character. One thing I really do like is the possibility of her having a very unique fighting style – less martial arts and more fisticuffs – not that I don’t love the martial arts and parkour on the show – you know I do!

A few final comments on some really terrific moments from this week. Did I mention the boxing glove arrow?!?! I really loved the scene in which the Arrow gets the information out of the guy and then just tap him out with a backhanded punch. The motorcycle chase was also brilliant. They do those chases so well, again, I hope we see Wildcat break his out! I loved the scene between Tatsu and Maseo (Karl Yune) in the flashback. Yune was really terrific in the scene. I also loved Oliver confusing stenography with a stegosaurus! And finally, “I’m Cupid, stupid.” Amy Gumenick as Cupid is going to be brilliant in the next episode! Love her – and did you notice her lurking in several scenes throughout the episode? Brilliant!

What did you think of the episode? Do you think Roy should still turn himself in? Do you think Oliver should just take over Laurel’s training? Can we trust Grant? Are you looking forward to Cupid? Let me know your thoughts in the comments below!

About the Author - Lisa Macklem
I do interviews and write articles for the site in addition to reviewing a number of shows, including Supernatural, Arrow, Agents of Shield, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Forever, Defiance, Bitten, Glee, and a few others! Highlights of this past year include covering San Diego Comic Con as press and a set visit to Bitten. When I'm not writing about television shows, I'm often writing about entertainment and media law in my capacity as a legal scholar. I also work in theatre when the opportunity arises. I'm an avid runner and rider, currently training in dressage.

80 comments:

  1. This epi was ho hum for me. I liked the fact that Oliver has decided to stand by Roy - and really helped him through his memories of what was real versus what was fiction. Just leaves us all with the bigger mystery, of Who Killed Sarah? Its like the show is ticking off suspects one by one. We now know it is not Merlyn, Roy, Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Laurel.....who could it be....? The show has been really good in terms of creating a Who dunit vibe.

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  2. This episode was boring for me. I was excited about Wild cat's backstory and Roy remembering his deeds but by the middle of the episode I was bored. The acting was fine in this episode but on the whole it could have been tighter. For a character who hardly got anything to say in the past 5 episodes I expected them to spend a little bit more time on Roy. But this episode turned out to be a more about Ted Grant and his apprentice than Roy.


    Everyone acted weird this episode. Diggle even though I understand what he was talking why didn't he feel that way when Roy killed those innocent cops but only in Sara's case. Oliver was a hypocrite calling Ted Grant a killer when he has a mile long victim list. I get it why Oliver thinks Laurel training to be a vigilante is a bad idea but he acted like an ass this episode towards Laurel. Ted Grant warns Oliver about training Roy and then turns around and accepts Laurel as one?? Roy telling Oliver and Laurel he killed Sara was bad scene for me very anti climatic and badly directed.


    You liked the scene where Laurel tells Ted Grant she and Oliver used to date.. I hated that one a lot. Lately the show has been treating Oliver's secret identity carelessly. In The Magician Diggle walked in without a mask into the monastry, this episode Oliver removes his hood and mask to talk to Laurel in an alley of all the places, and Laurel's comment to Ted Grant. We know Ted is a hero and won't talk about this to anyone but if someone overhears and want to look into it Oliver's identity will be compromised. That was such an unnecessary scene. Or are we supposed to see Ted Grant having a reaction to it. I was confused.


    I am bored by who killed Sara angle. I hope they stop giving us suspects now and just reveal the killer. There is only so many times they can give us this bait and switch routine. When they compared this to Undertaking in season 1 I was hoping for more. Now that was a mystery.


    Overall didn't dislike this one but was bored. Will not rewatch. I am excited about Cupid and Ray's plans which will be revealed next episode.

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  3. Not the best episode of the season, but I didn't hate it as much as others do. I really loved the last line of the episode by Cupid and I am really looking forward to her story.

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  4. Good Review. "did you notice her lurking in several scenes throughout the episode?" YES, that was a good way to show her presence.

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  5. Most definitely. It was a like a "Where's Waldo?" moment.

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  6. The episode was crap. Was so disappointed. What bothered me besides it not being Roy centric, the fact that I was hoping it was (as we were told), I was really looking forward to getting information on SIN!!! Do the writers think us this dumb to not notice?? I mean where TF is she?? I'm surprised that question hasn't been questioned towards the writers already.

    Again, best parts of the episode, Oliver and Roy scenes. Roy taking out Stanzler. "Don't abandon me." "Never." BOXING GLOVE ARROW! (My god that was awesome) and Cupid, Stupid. Also didn't mind the flashbacks.

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  7. I like them ticking people off one at a time - it's a great way to draw it out and deepen the mystery. Though I think my money is still on R'as al Ghul...

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  8. Definitely agree that Oliver is being a hypocrite by not acknowledging his own kills. What really stood out about how careless Oliver is about his secret identity is he and Grant going off together to investigate that club. How did they get there? Who's car did they take - and Grant really couldn't see his face? And then in the final scene Oliver stands way far away from him so he can't see? UGH! I don't think that Diggle knew about Roy killing the cop, did he? Didn't Oliver and Sara keep that to themselves?

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  9. I am guilty of not asking where SIN is too!!! Maybe the actor wasn't available?... now going off to find out!

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  10. What??? Well that could at least say something about her!! Don't just write her off like she never existed!! Wtf!! She went to live with her mom, she ran away, she died. I mean give us something!!

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  11. Worse....where was Diggle's mask or balaclava?

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  12. Agreed, continuity is a real problem on ALL CW shows....they should really hire an expert.

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  13. Hmmmm....Not sure how I feel about the slow unfolding of who committed the crime.....I too think it is R'as al Ghul, but that may be too easy an answer. The thing is....I have a lot of TV to watch (disgusting really), and if things don't start moving a bit more fast paced (like it usually does on this show), it may be a matter of me tuning out for a bit.....All that to say as they are moving wayyyy to slow on this...

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  14. Ted and Oliver must have taken his bike??? I don't mind anyone not recognizing a hero standing nearby because he just wears a mask. It's a comic book show and we are supposed to beleive mask= no way we can recognize the man, no mask = ta da Oliver Queen. If I can see superman movies and accept the glasses I can accept this too. But when the characters themselves blatantly give away clues about the identities of the heroes and heroes themselves not care I get angry. It's better to pull a Tony Stark than this.


    What Diggle and Felicity did not know that Roy killed the cop? Now I am confused. I thought they knew. I thought that's why Felicity hesitated and lied to Roy in season 2 finale when he asked her was he out the whole time?

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  15. One scene of Roy trying to call Sin and the call not going through would have been enough.

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  16. I do that with shows from time to time too.

    If I get bored by the main story or tired of how they are dealing with something I will let episodes accrue and then watch them at a later date in a marathon. I find it easier to deal with pacing issues and plot holes if I watch episodes back to back. Less time to analyze and less time to be annoyed between revelations etc...

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  17. Yep. I am with you on this.


    Generally tho....this show is not like this....

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  18. Someone in one of the Arrow threads on SpTV suggested Sin could have even killed Sara. It could explain her absence if they want people to forget about her so when they bring her back it has mor eimpact..


    Not sure I'm going there, but I thought it was a fun theory and one I had not thought of.

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  19. I just read thru this thread (three days after the episode aired) and can't believe nobody has named the character I'm 99% sure is the Killer: Thea.


    She's being trained by Malcolm, and the producers have said over and over again, that beginning this year Thea will be a villain. And, most convincingly, one of the producers (Marc Guggenheim or Greg Berlanti) said after this week's episode that the killer will be someone the will make the viewers "very sad" when we find out. Again, that points to Ollie's formerly sweet & innocent baby sister, Thea. My guess is that Thea killed Sara as some kind of final "test" or initiation rite into Malcolm's band of baddies.

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  20. Actually he wasn't...yet again he was exposed....not once during any of the sequences....he could easily be discovered and identified.....

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  21. From the episode - I'm afraid you're wrong.

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  22. No....there were countless areas where he was NOT wearing it, when he should have been....when he was in the van being lookout, when he went into the gym....number of scenes....
    Continuity is important....but also Dig's is an important member of the team, he should be protected.....

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  23. I've never disputed that he should have a disguise. You said "not once" - please don't categorically dismiss me as wrong - there is always the possibility that you are...

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  24. Actually....I was not categorically dismissing you as wrong, not at all. I am sorry if that is how you took my comments.

    In fact, I was pointing out how exposed Diggle was.....

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  25. This would be devastating....holy....

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  26. The fandom general consensus is both Diggle and Felicity knew about this and all the discussions were according to this assumption. Maybe you are right it would make more sense about his talk this episode.

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  27. I saw someone suggest that in a post for one of the first episodes of the season, but it didn't gain traction. it really is not discussed much is it?


    It certainly would fit the "make viewers very sad" quote you mentioned!

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  28. I enjoyed the episode, although probably will not rewatch it. Since it has been stated variouse times that the writers will not waste one ounce of energy in "secret identitiy" I just don't think about who could figure out who the Arrow is. What I liked about this episode that it showed the strenght of the writers, already planting seeds for this episode in 301 and planting seeds for 307. I am starting to enjoy Laurels journey. It was a great episode for character and team interactions, I am loving this season.

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  29. She's not part of Ollie's team because she doesn't want to be--in fact because it would partly mean listening to someone who isn't her. And Laurel has been fighting her dad, Oliver, Tommy, everybody since Season 1 (if she'd just listen every now and again, Tommy would still be alive). I think there is a huge difference between enabling reckless behavior for addictive personalities and giving someone agency. Laurel isn't and has never been lacking for the ability to make her own decisions and go her own way. She been lacking in sense. How is replacing booze and pills with physical violence a good answer? No, Laurel can't handle it. She doesn't even understand what she's asking for. Oliver spent a number of years becoming a killer because he had to to survive (as did Sara, and in some ways as did Diggle), but none of them would wish their status on someone who had another choice. That's not removing someone's agency--that's telling them that their agency is fundamentally flawed and frankly addictive personalities like Laurel's need to learn to accept the things they can't change.


    She's an ADA and her dad is a police chief and they've given me no compelling reason why she can't seek justice through the system. It is a major flaw for me. She has no reason to not go through the system except her own cowardice in telling her father that Sara is dead. Until then, she is on a reckless quest far more dangerous to her healthy and safety than a few extra glasses of wine.

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  30. It feels super redundant to me. Probably because there isn't any mystery. They find a suspect, Oliver has some sort of face-to-face, they dismiss the suspect. The only mystery is what sort of clue will they find next to lead them to another red herring until episode 9.

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  31. Well, you could say the same thing about any procedural. Take House as an example. You knew they were going to think they knew what the disease was at about the 1/2 way point in the show - but they'd be wrong and they wouldn't really know what was wrong until the 50 minute mark - you coud seriously set your watch by it!

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  32. It doesn't matter if they were to bring her back half way through the back half of the season. She had a big role in season 2. They need to bring her up now. And of course she honored her promise. She tracked Sin down and protected her. Hahahaha. And I highly doubt she's being trained. I wish people would stop thinking that. Or rather stop saying that. (I mean in general not you personally)

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  33. LOL - no worries.
    I agree that no mention of her was a majorly dropped ball. I think the entire BC storyline hasn't been thought through very well, leaving me dissatisfied on many levels. First, Laurel was a good character in S1, then they decide to back off on her becoming BC just yet and is a terrible character in S2. They introduce Caity Lotz - who I adored - fine. I'm good with that. Then they kill Caity - which essentially means killing all her story threads, like Sin. And again, that may be mainly a factor of losing the actor because she got the lead on another series and sometimes you have to roll with those punches - but nothing excuses nobody mentioning her.

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  34. First - thanks for the positive post! Yes. It's comics. Just accept that nobody knows who they are! And I totally agree with loving Laurel this season. I hope they keep up the trend of her not making stupid mistakes. It's great to see Katie Cassidy have something to act this season! You can tell by the changes in her body how hard she is working physically - did you check out her abs in that one t-shirt shot? I'm happy to see everyone re-invested in this character.

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  35. I completely agree with everything you say here - and very eloquently too. I think you've zeroed in on exactly what Laurel's journey is. She has to get past this blind rage and blind commitment to her own superiority - she needs to finally realize that she NEEDS to listen to other people from time to time - I very much hope that the writers are gearing up to teach her that lesson. It IS consistent for her to work outside the law to bring criminals to justice - and then serve them that justice IN the courtroom. I could get behind that.

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  36. You make some very good points--that also speak to larger, troubling concerns about the show as a whole. While I consider Arrow to be the best Comic book TV series on the air, the writers are definitely struggling with the classic comic-to-TV problem: how faithful to be to the source material, and how to use the characters from the comics.


    IMO, during the first and especially the second season Arrow excelled when it introduced new characters who were not in the comics: Felicity is the best example, but it also includes Diggle and Sara. Each of these characters became Fan Favorites, and helped propel the TV series audience beyond the loyal comic book fanboys--and resulted in excellent ratings for the CW.


    The "Laurel/Diana Lane" character, on the other hand, comes from the comic books, and has a definite destination--to become the Black Canary and wife of the Arrow. And for whatever reasons this appears to be problematic for the show's writers. They seem constrained with having to tell Laurel/Diana's story--and the creativity that is so apparent in the Diggle, Sara, Felicity characters just does come through with Laurel/Diana.


    Which brings us back to the points you make in your post about Laurel/Diana's actions and motivations not really "working" for you, me--and, I suspect, many other viewers. Much has already been written so far this season by viewers who just aren't buying Laurel/Diana's transformation from bookworm attorney to Female Warrior. The scenes of her being trained in boxing are the very definition of lame. Yet, the writers felt compelled to kill off the far more physical (and popular) Sara, and move forward with their "Bible" of making Laurel the Canary. Which brings up a final point.


    I was at San Diego Comic Con again this year, and went to the Arrow panel. What was very clear (besides how charming Willa Holland/Thea is) was the fact that the show's writers are constantly negotiating with DC Comics on the rights to use various characters from the comic books. And, I sensed, DC is being very, very dictatorial about "how" each character appears in the TV show. I left the panel believing that Marc Guggenheim and Greg Berlanti were very cautious about upsetting the folks at DC for fear that they wouldn't get the "rights" to introduce more DC characters on the Arrow series. And, by extension, get the rights to create shows, like The Flash, in the future.


    In conclusion, I believe the Laurel/Diana character will always be a problem for the Arrow TV show, because the writers don't have the freedom to "create" for the character. Which is the same constraint the writers have with their Main Character, Ollie/Arrow--but are able to handle better thru use of the flashbacks to the Island, and this year, Hong Kong.

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  37. How is it consistent for her to work outside the law. People take up vigilantism when they loose faith in justice system. Batman because Gotham PD and govt are corrupt. Reese and Finch in PoI because govt does not work with irrelevant numbers thus letting people die. If they had shown her not being able to convict someone due to a corrupt judge or her father struggling with a corrupt police dept. I could have understood her.

    Sara's death has nothing to do with justice system. It was her decision to be canary and member of LoA and thus police could not be called at the crime scene.

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  38. And now Reese is a cop as his cover! Helping the police. Laurel could do as the entire Arrow team is doing - helping to bring in criminals for the justice system to do. Once she gets over finding revenge - as Oliver was in the first season, she can find a place there. So what you seem to be saying about Sara is that criminals don't deserve justice? The legal system might disagree with you there... ie innocent until proven guilty ensures that everyone gets representation equally under the law - regardless of the hows and whys...

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  39. I did not say that. I think I was not clear. What I said was Laurel decided to not involve the police and the justice system to protect Sara's cover even after her death and to protect her father. If Oliver gets into an accident and dies tomorrow won't Diggle and Felicity try to protect him and his identity even in his death? When the justice system is not involved then how can they solve Sara's death and how can they convict the killer? So I get Laurel going after Sara's killer and getting revenge what I don't get is why does she want to fight crime on streets her being the law of the city?

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  40. But wouldn't it make Oliver more broody if they make Thea the killer? the journey of this season for Oliver is can I be Arrow and Oliver Queen? If his sister becomes evil would he want to be Oliver Queen anymore?

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  41. AH! Yes, I'm sorry, I did completely misunderstand you. I completely agree with _everything_ you say here! Especially, let's get her interacting with the team more! I have the comic and haven't read it yet (I know that's bad!), but now I'm going to read it asap for the Diggle/Laurel moments! I think she wants to fight justice the way Sara did to honor her but even more so because Laurel is tired of being seen as weak and a victim - Oliver asserted that he doesn't see her that way, but it's still clear that he and Quentin respect Sara more than Laurel when it comes to fighting and looking after herself.

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  42. I clearly need to go back and re-watch those episodes from last season...

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  43. For me from season 1 and season 2 being a lawyer is something Laurel took great pride in and defined herself with her job in season 1. For the same Laurel to go completely against what her job stands for I needed a little bit more motivation. Her getting trained to protect herself and protect those she loves like she could not protect Sara and Tommy I understand that. Oliver and Quentin do love to paint her a victim don't they? I wish they had shown more crime in glades in the show where police fails completely to protect people and let laurel witness these or something like that. A small connection is all I am asking for so that I can get behind her change in attitude.

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  44. Two things really bothered me. First, that Diggle was so out-of-character in suggesting they cut Roy loose because he might still have some mirakuru in his system. For someone who originally signed on with Oliver because war does terrible things to you and he wanted to help Oliver stay as well as he could, the idea of dropping Roy because Roy got hurt in the war (mirakuru'd) and couldn't help himself is a complete 180. A very bad plot contrivance.


    The second thing that bothered me is that this was supposed to be Roy's big episode, revealing that he had killed a cop while he was under the influence, but Roy got less than 6 minutes in total in this episode which turned out to be about Laurel and Ted Grant.


    I understand that they need the time to make Laurel into the Black Canary but I wish they would do it in episodes separate from storylines for the other characters because Team Arrow is getting short-changed when four of the six episodes this season have had major Laurel storylines.


    Maybe no one believed Laurel vouching for Ted because she's been behaving so erratically for the past five episodes, trying to kill Komodo even though he wasn't Sara's killer to beating up a guy she's never met before with a baseball bat and getting beaten up herself, to calling out the riot squad the minute she got a little power.

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  45. I don't find the "mystery" compelling at all. If it's someone we already know, it's going to be Sin, or Thea at a long shot although she was supposedly on Corto Maltese when it happened. The mastermind will be Ra's or Amanda Waller.


    Yawn.


    I still bitterly resent that they killed Sara to make Laurel the Black Canary. They could have done it as well having Sara kidnapped and missing.

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  46. That is why I stopped watching House. (I also didn't like the new fellows and Huddy.)


    I waited for House to be wrong just once but it never happened.

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  47. They need to do it more like an Agatha Christie mystery where the clues are presented all at the beginning and eliminated one by one. This way of presenting one clue each week and then one red herring and eliminating him is pretty boring and kind of insulting to the audience.

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  48. As huge fan of Arrow in general, another ok episode but not one I will re-watch like many others before. I will not give up hope that it will get back to its old shape soon.

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  49. Well Grant knows Oliver's identity by now since Laurel told him she used to date the Arrow. Laurel has dated only three men and two of them are dead, and the one her face was in the headlines with is Oliver Queen.

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  50. I am with you on the not compelling mystery....the epi was definitely ho hum for me.

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  51. Everyone knew Roy killed a cop because it was filmed and on the news, although his face may have been hidden by the red hoodie.

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  52. Well @Koky just rewatched "Seeing Red" for me and in that episode Diggle and Thea together at the club watches on news the video of Roy killing that cop. And Felicity is present in the foundry when Sara asks Oliver to take Roy out as he is a lost case. So they both knew of what he did and Diggle definitely was ooc this episode *sigh*.

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  53. Pretty sure Laurel dated a lot more than 3 guys in her life. 4 in the last 3 years - that we know about - if you count the DA from last season. So while Grant could make guesses it's Oliver, it's not a for sure thing. And in S1 they were keeping it hush hush so as not to hurt Tommy...

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  54. Disappointing then...

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  55. I'm pretty sure there was an episode where he was wrong - late in the series...

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  56. Joanna said in the pilot episode that except for the brief time with Tommy (comforting each other?) Laurel hadn't dated anyone since Oliver had gone missing. No mention of who or if she had dated in high school before Oliver.


    I'd forgotten about the ADA, and so apparently has the show otherwise he should have been the one questioning Grant instead of Laurel since Laurel was his alibi. She didn't actually date Oliver in the last three years so much as sleep with him once. The other two guys, Tommy and Blood, are both dead..

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  57. Could be. As I said, I stopped watching because it was always exactly the same thing.

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  58. I miss Sara/Caity Sooo much! I really do, for so many reasons. Sigh, smh

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  59. I don't think I would agree with "any" procedural. House was particularly bad, in that it was entirely predictable and since the medicine was absurdly made up, there wasn't much outside of wrong, wrong, wrong think we're right, turn for the worse, almost dead, right. This wasn't worth watching for me. Most procedurals reset, yes. But the watchably entertaining ones go about the formula with changes and surprises, even the medical ones usually have interesting character backstories. And most importantly, they end that mystery at the end of the episode. I'm not required to care about the case of the week four weeks later--it's too simple. Arrow isn't doing that really. They get a lead, Ollie tracks them down, fight, accuses them of killing Sara, they provide alibi, we move on. Back in like season 1, there was a diner scene with Oliver and Diggle and Felicity and Felicity suggests spying on Det. McKenna and Oliver's like that's not my usual way of getting information. His usual way works for an action-based superhero show where information isn't the primary commodity. It doesn't work for a mystery procedural. They are asking us to watch the same thing over and over, and unlike the viewers of House, I didn't sign up for that, so I expect more, in that I expect them to tie together a thread and build on their mystery, not just line up the potential suspects and ask them if they did it, and then move to the next person in the lineup.

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  60. Actually you are wrong, because Quentin, Oliver, Tommy and even Laurel already pointed she liked the bad boys. I remember one scene, I think it's 1.13, and Tommy is worried beucase Laurel knows the Hood and she always liked the badboy.
    It's pretty clear she dated a few guys and I don't really think Ted can search Laurel's boyfriends on google, right? Also, she could have dated the Arrow himself, and of course it would be a secret, they wouldn't tell the world about that.
    So this is really stupid reason to complain about something.

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  61. When Quentin said that Laurel liked the bad boys, he was referring to Oliver and Tommy specifically.


    Tommy was immensely insecure in his relationship with Laurel. He knew Oliver had only to snap his fingers and she would come running and he was right. When Tommy found out that Oliver was The Hood, he said that if Laurel knew, she would dump him for Oliver.


    There is nothing in the episodes to indicate that she dated anyone but Oliver, Tommy, Blood or Adam (once) during the time of the show. But even if she did, her relationship with Oliver was the one in the news media and Oliver had once been arrested for being the vigilante. If Ted wanted to, he could put together the pieces very easily.


    Laurel had herself under better control this episode but she was still making stupid mistakes.

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  62. The DA is dead, and she certainly could have dated lots of other guys in high school. You can "date" someone and only go out 1 or 2 times...

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  63. I agree! Diggle was completely out of character! And I would have liked a lot more focus on Roy. I'm hoping we'll still get that in an upcoming episode.

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  64. I think next week's episode looks awesome! There are also some episodes coming up written by Berlanti, Guggenheim, and Kreisberg, so I'm hoping the threads will start to come together...

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  65. But in a procedural the mystery gets solved in one episode so it does not feel this redundant. I loved the mystery of undertaking in season 1. First we came to know Moira is somehow involved in Robert's murder, then Walter got involved, then Felicity found clues in the book, the Walter got kidnapped, Dark Archer came into play, the glades map gets revealed, unidac industries, asian guy whom Moira shot, China White, getting Walter back... so much awesome. We as audience or the heroes of the show used to get bread crumbs every few episodes.


    In this case in episode 2 we come to know that who ever killed Sara is an archer who used distorted voice and is some one Sara knew. Apart from that we have no clue presented to us except this episode where Felicity says the killer was short in stature and the trajectory was off. If they knew this all this time why the hell did they suspect Komodo and Malcolm who are really tall people?? Shouldn't they look at the list of short and female archers?

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  66. Even Stephen Amell said it was the most twisted thing the writers have done so far....

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  67. I still don't think they will make the only living relative of Oliver evil. Also I don't see Thea mindlessly killing someone like this. As of now the only person who could not be the suspect is Laurel as she was below the building when Sara fell down.

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  68. The DA was Kate Spencer and she is dead. The ADA, Adam, who hired and then fired Laurel disappeared after his kidnapping (presumably back to Orphan Black).


    In Time of Death, Oliver told Laurel "I have loved you for half my life". It seems likely they got together in high school. Tommy had wanted to date Laurel for a long time but he didn't try because she was 'Oliver's girl'.


    But it doesn't really matter. They'll write what they want to write.

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  69. If Thea is the shooter, I don't believe she is evil. She will have been tricked into doing it.The way how well Masks protect the identitiy of the wearer, maybe Thea was not even aware it was Sara.
    We know for a fact, that the shooter is someone we as an audience have met. Sara new her Killer and was suprised but not threatend by him/her.
    From Felicity we know the killer was either smaller/shorter due to shooting angle or the killer did not have a bow but something else, maybe a crossbow?
    Suspects with motives:
    Ras: had no particular love for Sara, he did not even consider her as one of his own
    Malcom: Sara was there to spy on him on behalf of the LoA
    Thea: in a twisted way Thea could have wanted to protect Malcom from LoA
    Possible suspect shooting angle/shorter Person:
    Roy, if he was in a mirakuru frenzy throwing the arrows - but we heared a bow string or similiar
    Felicity is shorter
    Sin is shorter
    Thea is shorter - and as viewer we see Felicity mention that Oliver has a small/short problem when he wants to leave the Foundry and Thea arrives at the Verdant in 305
    The Huntress uses a crossbow.


    Untill pulling the facts together my money was on Ra's but for now I'm going with Thea. I believe that Saras murder will have a further ripple effect which brings Ra's to Starling City.

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  70. You give some valid arguments. But if the show is going to give Thea the role of Speedy I don't think they will make her the killer. Now if they are planning to maker cheshire or other villainous character and send her on a darker path for next few seasons then yes she could very well be the killer.


    The problem with Thea killing Sara intentionally and still be a hero is that this show has made a huge issue about killing even though Oliver spent most of season 1 doing it. We were told both Oliver and Sara got into killing people under extreme duress and they are/were suffering for it. Roy was under mirakuru rage and the follow up is still going on. Only in Laurel's case they glossed upon her killing that corrupt cop.


    It doesn't matter whether Thea knew Sara was under the mask or not to intentionally go somewhere and attack a person who is not fighting you and kill her is crossing a line into evil and I don't think they will go there unless they plan to make her go all dark for few seasons at least. Also we have to remember the killer said "Hello Sara". For now my money is on Sin or Roy who is mind controlled by Malcolm. I can't get this feeling out of my mind that Malcolm has a huge role in this event. He is a mastermind after all.

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  71. a yeah, I forgot about Hello Sara. I believe either Malcom or Ra's is the mastermind behind Saras killing. At the moment I am still inclinging a bit more toward Ra's. If Ra's would be behind it what would Nyssa do? Team up with Arrow for some time? I see your point about Sin, it would be very tragic. Maybe she somehow got with mirakuru? I think you got a good suspect there, I just would find it a bit anticlimatic not having seen her this season. For your brainwashing theory, this could also apply to Thea, but I would doubt it. Malcom wants more the real realtionship.

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  72. that would actually explain a lot and would be an amazing twist... though they were basically like sisters so Sara must have done something terrible to make her go kill Sara

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  73. If I recall their theory went something like the LoA or Ra's tells Sin that Sara killed her dad and Sara is only looking after Sin because she is responsible for Sin being alone. Doing it out of guilt etc..

    There was something else about Sin being recruited by the LoA as well. I think that went into the comic book mythology more than what actually would work on the show though.

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  74. Did Sara really kill her father though? I don't remember much, but that guy was done for so she was kind of doing him a favor. Yes, a villain with a way could use that against and fill Sin with rage against Sara, but still, given how sisterly they were, she would REALLY need to be brainwashed. We don't know much about Sin still though. And the actress now has a lead role so I'm not sure how likely she'll be able to come back. Yet it might be to the advantage of Arrow if they are going with Sin as the killer because they sorta made us forget about her and that would explain her absence.

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  75. I guess if Sin believes LoA telling her that Sara killed her dad that is all that matters....


    I agree though, Sara and Sin had what looked like a strong sisterly bond. I would think it would take more than a simple story to turn Sin against Sara.


    That was part of while I find the theory interesting I did not put a lot of stock in it actually happening... Who knows though.

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  76. this was what i was convinced would happen between Oliver and Felicity last season when there were rumors that Ivo was her dad. until the very last minute, i was expecting that while holding her captive, Slade would tell her that Ivo was on the island and Oliver killed him and thus Slade would fulfill his whole 'i'll turn those who follow him against him' promise. i was super relieved when it didn't happen though.
    so yeah, it can happen to Sin but it would be a little too dark.
    thea on the other hand didn't even know Sara... oooh, which brings me to the whole Sara-knew-her-killer thing and so that kinda crosses off Thea of the list?

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  77. I just don't know...
    I honestly have not been trying very hard to solve who killed Sara, but my first suspects are still in the mix.


    Merlyn was my first thought followed by the Loa. After learning that Sara was in town for Merlyn I did wonder if Thea could have done it to protect her father... Every suspect has pros and cons right now with the limited info
    they have given us.

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  78. I don't think Sara's murder was personal. I think it is a part of a big game going on which involves Ra's and Malcolm. Sara only had few contacts in Starling City for it to be personal. We can rule out Laurel, Quentin and Oliver (I hope it's not Oliver). Then we have Diggle, Felicity, Roy, Malcolm, Thea and Sin. None of these people seems to have any personal beef against Sara as of now. Apart from Malcolm all these other characters loved her. I find it unbelievable to think Ra's would go this round about away if he wanted to eliminate Sara. I hope whoever it turns out to be in the end they give us a good explanation as to why it happened. I don't want to feel WTF just happened?

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  79. yeah it's hard. Initially I thought it was Ra's that had Sara murderd to frame it on Malcom so he would get the Arrow to do his work for him - get rid of Malcom. It would have just been convenient to get rid of Sara for him too. But then who would Ra's have sent that we know? Maybe you are right and it is Malcom - but why? I believe we will have to be patient with our detective work until new clues are presented. I have no fact but the more I think about it, the more I believe it was personal.

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