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Supernatural – Episode 9.21 – The Gripe Review

10 May 2014

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I am pissed. It’s not often that I’m pissed writing the Gripe Review. Usually I’m contemplative, analytic, even humored. But this time I’m angry, because it’s very clear to me that these writers aren’t going to give this show a break.

We’re in the final stretch of the season, the last lap, the countdown. This is no time for messing around and having fun because there are only three episodes left and a lot of ground to cover, and who does Carver assign to an episode? The duo of writers who are first on my (and many others') need-to-be-fired list. And they don’t disappoint.

I thought a lot about why I no longer enjoyed the show as much as I used to. Sure I have the gripes (and boy did I have to trim the list this week, to avoid ranting on,) but the problem is larger and more fundamental. It’s in the way the writers treat the characters on the show, like slaves shackled and dragged by their largely uninspired stories.


Forget the overuse of exposition, forget the relentless slaughtering of canon, or the canyon sized plotholes. This is the main problem with season 9, the thing that makes it so infuriatingly inferior to the previous seasons: all characters serve at the pleasure of the plot.

The devil behind nearly all the problems we see in this episode, and most of what we saw so far, is this. The writers are looking through the narrow end of the funnel and not seeing what made this show great and successful in the past. Supernatural has always been a character driven show. The plot followed the characters across the main arc, telling their story (not just A Story) and revealing different facets of their personalities.

It had been this way until very recently, before the last decent writer from the old group, Ben Edlund, left the show. Now we’re stuck with people who have turned the formula around. Now characters follow the plot and bend and twist backwards and sideways to accommodate it. This is why even a storyline as compelling as the Mark of Cain feels flat and forced. It lacks heart. It lacks humanity. It is missing character force, and players whose characteristics rationalize what happens on screen.


Gripe #1 – The longest recap in the history of the show


One minute and 50 seconds, that’s how long this thing ran, and it included everything, from Gadreel’s story, to the angel wars, to the Mark of Cain, to the awkwardly patched together line, “Abaddon! She’s a demon, who is a Knight of Hell!” Thank you Mr. Obvious, I just woke up from a coma and needed a quick and dizzying tour of everything that happened this season.

Why did we need to hear about Hell Hounds again when the only appearance one had was a pointless scene in a graveyard where it chased Sam and Dean into a tomb? Did their editor fall sick and they had Timmy the intern put something quickly together?


Gripe #2 – The clowns formerly known as angels



Remember when angels were scary? When even the thought of them being around struck fear into everyone who was on their kill list? When it was remarkably brave of Sam and Dean to go up against them and one more reason for us to admire their courage?

How did they go from that, to this?


I could turn a blind eye on out of character behavior from time to time, but an entire race of characters suddenly behaving OOC? How is that acceptable?

One of the most fascinating aspects of angels in the earlier seasons was that you could tell who and what they were just by looking at them. Unlike demons, who blended with humans until the black eyes came out, angels were alien. They were awkward and quiet and had this strangeness about them that was slightly off, like they felt uncomfortable in their vessels. Even in later seasons when they introduced Gabriel and Balthazar, and the lines blurred a bit, there were still the tell-tale signs in the lackey angels. The last significant identifier, the suits, went away this season and oddly enough, showed up on Crowley’s demons.


There's this complaint I see a lot - I've even seen it in responses to these reviews - that the angel/heaven storyline has run its course and viewers want something else. I wonder what people mean by that because these certainly aren’t the angels we were introduced to. These are bland, ordinary characters who only carry the label of angels, like it's a membership to a club. They could be called werewolves, or demons, or agents or hipsters and it wouldn’t make a difference. Not when they crack human jokes and congregate in a headquarter that looks like something out of The Hunt for Red October.


Gripe #3 – The commander


I enjoyed the other angels calling Castiel “commander.” He’s my favorite character and Heaven’s only relic left from the old days. I like him to be respected, even by the weird army of angels who look like they belong on Agents of the SHIELD instead of Supernatural.

But I couldn't help to ask why him, especially after meeting him in his command center. As the leader of the largest faction of angels opposing Metatron Castiel seems awfully insecure. He keeps saying he’s not a leader and he comes off as uncertain and docile. It could be to enforce the idea of him not wanting to do this because he considers it part of Metatron’s plan. But it still begs the question, why do the rest of the angels insist on following him? What do they see in him that makes them think he’s fit for command? If I look at him and see a character too weak and indecisive to be involved in any war planning - and I am a fan of his – how could these complete strangers put their faith in him, or be intimidated by him?


Gripe #4 – Castiel serving at the pleasure of the plot



“I would give anything not to have you do this,” said a heaven-bound Castiel to a distraught Dean in the season 4 episode On the Head of the Pin. The “this” he was referring to was Dean torturing Alistair, a demon who taught him how to torture in hell. The reason Castiel said this was because, even as early as then, he knew what torturing would do to Dean, how it might bring the darkness out of him and allow it to consume him. He felt sympathetic toward Dean, even though he barely knew him. And despite the decision being largely not his, he felt regret over his involvement in it.

Five seasons later, the same Castiel who is now a close friend of Dean and has more reason to worry about him considering the mark he wears, asks him to torture a prisoner, for as little cause as, “You had success with these situations before.”

Why would Castiel be so callous to ask such a thing of Dean?

Because the plot demands it of him. Because the writers think it is ok to walk all over the core quality of one of the show’s main characters just to drive their plot forward. This is what it means for characters to be slaves to the plot.

So what was the point of getting Dean into the interrogation room? Was it for yet another demonstration of the mark's effect? Dean did after all show a considerable amount of interest during their conversation.

Which brings me to Gripe #5, and the baffling fact that that's not even what happened.


Gripe #5 – The most awkward scene in the history of the show


I watched the interrogation of the dumbest angel in the world expecting to get yet another face full of how badly the mark messed with Dean. It was obvious they would ignore his history with torture, as did Castiel, and have him go at the guy like he was his second chance at Gadreel. Why else would they bend two characters out of shape to get Dean into the room?

But then something else happens. Before Dean could start with the guy Sam stops him, and the two of them launch the most tired, silly and overused trick in the book: reverse psychology.

I’ve seen this done on several TV shows. It’s quite hard to make it work so the audience actually believes it. In most cases it happens in just an instant, before the victim realizes their slip and tries to backpedal.

But here it lasts more than 4 minutes, something that should not have worked in the first place because Sam and Dean are the guy’s interrogators, not a couple of his drinking buddies who caught him on a happy night and fooled him into spilling his guts. The guy would be wary of them.


Even if we believed this angel had pudding for brains, the way the conversation builds up is quite ridiculous. It becomes more and more forced as it goes on until it becomes so fake it drags the scene to the ground. After two minutes I was yelling “Stop!” at my screen. I simply couldn’t stand the second hand embarrassment I was feeling for the poor actors involved.

I’m of the belief that Jared and Jensen could sell any scene on this show no matter how outlandish it is. It’s what gave creative writers like Edlund the tools to work with. But there’s a limit to how much even they could do. If I am sitting here, watching and cringing at how badly a scene sounds and feels, I could only imagine how uncomfortable they must have felt.


Gripe #6 – A time traveler with the most perplexing priorities


Let’s talk about Crowley’s son, Gavin. This guy travels almost three hundred years into the future, to a time where light is produced by candles without flames, and horse-free carriages speed through the city’s streets. He is told that his father sold his soul to the devil and is now the King of Hell.

And what does he want to talk about? Family issues.

Lets recap this again. A guy who is just transported 291 years into the future, and is lectured by a man who claims to be his father but looks nothing like him, wants to talk about his childhood with him. Why doesn't he run out to explore the world he’s been dropped into? Why doesn't he ask about it? Why isn't it the only thing he talks about? What if the spell only last a few minutes before he is thrown back into his own time? Wouldn't he want to find out as much a possible about the fantastic future he's brought into? Isn't curiosity one of humanity’s most primal instincts?

Crowley’s son however won’t spend more than mere seconds marvelling at the wonders of the new world before starting a row with his father about how much he hates him, because that talk is important to the plot. And since plot is dictating everything both Crowley and Gavin turn into puppets of the writers, delivering exposition after exposition so that we know the reason behind things, even if it makes no sense.


Gripe #7 – Editing a Frankenstein episode


This episode starts off with Sam and Dean meeting up with Castiel, talking about their plans to defeat Metatron and gathering information from their super awkward angel interrogation. Then Dean receives a phone call from Crowley and off they go to a different adventure involving Abaddon. There is literally no transition between the two storylines, not even a phone call between the Winchesters and Castiel to tell each other what they are doing. One minute they are plotting in Castiel’s office, the next they are on the road, not even remembering what they did in the first 25 minutes of the episode.

This effectively cuts the episode in half, making it seem like two episodes sewn together as one. The reason that phone call between the brothers and Castiel was important was because it would have connected these two parts. I know it could have happened off screen, or they could have not bothered with it as people sometimes do in real life. But it had to happen on camera in this case, for the sake of coherence and continuity, so that the audience won't sit there wondering, “What happened to that…other thing? How come they are doing something else? Did I fall asleep and wake up next week?”


Gripe #8 – Sam serving at the pleasure of the plot


Sam was the only bright speck of light in this clutter of irrational behavior and awkward, embarrassing dialogue. Maybe it was because he wasn’t as tightly chained to the ongoing storylines as Castiel or Dean, so Jared had a bit more wiggle room to portray Sam the way he used to be. I’m sure we’d go back to modified Sam soon enough, when the plot once again sends its slimy tentacles after him. But for this episode he was the good old Sam, and his worry for Dean seemed genuine.

That is until they reached Crowley’s hotel and the brothers suddenly, inexplicably split up. Dean made up a bogus story about demons in the basement and Sam swallowed it whole. He handed Dean the First Blade and departed for Off-Screen Land, where good characters go when they need to disappear for a time so that something could happen in their absence.

Who in their right mind believes Sam would leave Dean alone with the Blade, especially after what he saw Dean was capable of and how the Blade and the Mark affected him? In a better show, one that respected its characters’ intelligence and personalities, Sam would secretly follow Dean to see what he was up to. It would be harder for the writers to come up with an excuse as to why he was not there when the fight between Dean and Abaddon went down, but it would be more in line with his character and actual logic, which I assume is what the writers are paid for to do.


Gripe #9 – The idiot formerly known as Abaddon


And then we have Abaddon, one of the most interesting and supposedly intelligent villains to appear on the show.

First she throws Dean against the wall, the way most bad guys do when they want to waste time with the Winchesters. Then she launches into an exposition about what she would do. “First this, then that…that’s quite a to-do list!”

Which begs the question, “Why aren’t you doing it?”

It's funny that the Blade, the instrument of her ultimate destruction, is right there in Dean’s hand, and she doesn’t bother to remove it, or take it, or send it far away like she surely could do. She just talks and keeps forcing Dean against the wall. Why doesn’t she wring his neck? Why did she need him there in the first place?

Think about it: Crowley had the blade. Abaddon had Crowley. All she had to do was to kill Crowley and the whole project would be shut down. The Winchesters wouldn’t have the blade, or any way to find it, and Dean’s mark would become harmless. She could’ve gone about executing her evil plan in order to take control of Hell and once she was the queen, she could have sent her minions to finish them off, if she still cared.


But instead she cooked up this elaborate plan to get Dean exactly where he had to be, with the weapon he had to use, and kept yapping on and on about her plan until he got the break he needed to kill her. Sure it was a spectacular scene in terms of visual effects and execution. But it got spoiled by all the absurdity that preceded it to get the characters into the right position at the right time.

I’m not holding much hope for the rest of the season. There are only two episodes left and fans are making speculations about what will happen in the finale. I have no theories. As far as I’m concerned anything could happen. Sam could kill Dean, Dean could kill Sam, or Castiel could kill both of them, right before he kisses Metatron on the mouth and starts to dance the Viennese Waltz around Heaven with Crowley. When characters are bound by the plot, instead of the other way around, no behavior is too outlandish or ridiculous for them.

As always, your thoughts and comments are welcome below.


Tessa

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twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

88 comments:

  1. I thought I enjoyed this episode until I read this. I think I just tune out when I watch episodes these days haha. I feel most strongly towards Gripe #3. I've been saying this for ages. Why is anyone following Cas? Remember how well that worked out for everyone the last time he was in charge?

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  2. That's kinda the point about characters, to serve the plot, and vice versa, and that's what the episode did. That complaint sounds like you are trying to sound smart wording it like that, when what are you are really saying you think the characters should act how you want them too. Because they can't change, and have different motivations or feelings, they need to stay the same because a character acted one way 5 years ago.


    Why doesn't Abaddon do this or that? That's reminding me of the old John Ford quote about the Indians shooing the horses in Stagecoach. If she just killed Crowley, that would be the end of the show. Crowley, no blade, she can just go ahead and kill Sam and Dean whenever she comes across them next.

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  3. Thank you for the comment. Sorry I spoiled your enjoyment of the episode. Maybe these reviews should come with a warning, "Don't read if you have mastered tuning out the nonsense." :)


    As for Cas, I honestly don't get it. They could have given him at leave one victory this season to justify everyone falling all over themselves to become his soldier. Instead they made him the clumsy human and had him be captured and tortured by every Dick, Joe and Larry. But now his name strikes fear into the hearts of his enemies and they expect us to not roll our eyes.

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  4. He killed Bartholomew, the leader of the biggest faction of angels. I'd say that was a victory worth other angels gathering to him.

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  5. I studied writing. One of the first things they teach you to do while constructing a story is to construct your characters and write outlines for their behavior. Ask any writer and they'll tell you about those long character profiles.


    Why do they exist? To act as blueprints on how the characters would behave when you drop them into your story. What do you do if they end up acting in a way that doesn't work for the story? Will you change the blueprint? No, you change the plot. Again, ask any writer and they'll tell you this is true.


    Does this mean characters can't change. No, it means they can't change without a reason. If you want your character to change from their core personality outlined in their profile you have to incorporate it in the story, create an incident, or an arc, that justifies your character deviating from what you constructed for them and showed the audience.


    Why is this important? Because it gives the audience a chance to immerse themselves in your story and to guess what would happen next based on what they know of the characters. If your characters do whatever fits the story, on your whim, how is a viewer supposed to make speculations? It would be like what I said at the end of the review. Characters could do the most outlandish things and it wouldn't matter because that's what the plot demands of them.

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  6. Is it weird that I read these reviews in the voice of the Nostalgia Critic?

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  7. Great gripes! I share many of them.

    I didn't care for this episode but, sadly, that is nothing new these days.

    Your second gripe really bothered me. As you said, when the angels were first introduced they were really powerful beings. They inspired fear in everyone. Remember when Castiel threatened to send Dean back to Hell. Dean was really unnerved. Remember when Ruby was frightened to be around angels. Now, they are a pathetic joke and inspire fear in no one. The angel that the boys interrogated had to be the most pathetic version of an angel to date on this show. Did they really have him bragging about working for Metatron like a pathetic loser? I felt like I was watching the scene from high school movie where the uncool or nerdy kid is trying to get the attention of the cool kids. Even the way the "cool" angels were ignoring him felt off to me. When have angels ever acted that way? What was that?

    I also agree that Castiel should be presented in a much stronger and authoritative way if he is commanding all those angels. Bring back the S4 characterization of Castiel. I could see that guy commanding troops.

    I'm also bothered with the way the MOC story is playing out. It troubles me that no one has done any research regarding the MOC. Sam is not researching it. Dean is not researching it. Cas seems to have no thoughts about it. I mean what's the point of the story if no one is super worried about it? Sam is expressing some concern but not the level he has in the past when he's concerned about Dean, or the way Dean has for Sam in past stories.

    Awesome point about Abbadon. She should have just killed Crowley and sent some demons to kill Sam and Dean. She was murdered by her own stupidity. Did she really think Crowley was going to assist her? She was about as dumb as Sam and Dean leaving Crowley alive!

    I didn't think much about Crowley's conversation with his son because I found the entire scene a waste of time. In my opinion, it was clear that that those scenes were used to pad the episode. They didn't have anything else to show so they focused on Crowley and son. I would have rather seen more focus on Dean and the MOC than the lame fight btw Crowley and his kid!

    Here is my own #1 gripe about the episode: since when did Sam remember anything about the time when he was possessed? The whole point of the first half of the season was that Sam was possessed without his knowledge. At no time did Sam ever feel like there was another being in his body. If he had felt that way at any time, why wouldn't he have said something to Dean about that? Yes, Sam said he thought something was wrong but that is a far cry from feeling like there is another entity in his body! And Sam may have gained memories of what Gadreel did while in his body but I don't believe he could then suddenly have new memories of that whole time period. that doesn't make any sense to me. How can Sam go for 6 months not feeling anything about the possession but now he suddenly remembers that he felt like somebody was there? WHAT?!?!?! That doesn't make any sense! And not only does he remember Gadreel being there, but he can also positively state that Gadreel had no evil or malicious intentions....REALLY?!?!? Clearly, they wanted Sam to vouch for Gadreel so Cas could recruit him. They didn't really care that using Sam to do so made no sense.

    Plus, what was the point of saying that Sam felt like Gadreel was just a misunderstood good guy, and that they were just sharing a house when earlier he was seeming Dean out and ending their brotherhood because of the possession?!?!?! If Sam has reflected on the possession and it wasn't such a bad thing, doesn't that make negate the whole first half of the season?!?!

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  8. Then make him proud of it. Make him show how that act boosted his confidence and made him feel like he is worth being a leader.


    Castiel's story on the show is so disjointed the writers themselves must have forgotten about him killing Bartholomew and his followers gathering behind him. The next episode had him doubting himself again, holing up in a motel room diddling this thumbs, and being captured and lectured by Metatron. Until at the end of the episode, when Sam and Dean came and saved his butt, he hadn't chosen to be a leader. Then he tore up the newspaper clipping from the walls and opened the door to yet another scene of angels gathered to follow him. You'd think that was the time he gained confidence and embraced being a leader. But nope, we met him in this episode again and he was back to "I am not a leader, these clowns only think I am."


    It's not a victory, you know, when the person achieving it doesn't believe they have achieved anything, nor is there anyone else telling them they have achieved something and should be proud of themselves.

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  9. And Castiel had a reason to ask Sam and Dean to interrogate for him, he's trying to get Metatron and get the angels back into Heaven. Ends justifying the means.

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  10. Lol, not at all. I'm a fan of his, and very inspired by his work. I must have watched all his reviews at least twice.

    But the one that really inspires me (the one whose voice I sometimes hear while writing these reviews) is Confuse Mathew (http://confusedmatthew.com/). He has an amazing way of critiquing story aspects that makes you see things you didn't notice before. I was a fan of Titanic for a long time until I watched his review of it, and then I wasn't. His reviews of No Country For Old Men, 2001: a Space Odyssey and The Lion King are amazing too. I recommend you check him out if you haven't already.

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  11. It's less doubting himself and more refusing to lead, until he decides it is what he has to do.

    "They had no leader and they insisted on following me." is a far cry from "I am not a leader, these clowns only think I am."

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  12. I agree that I don't understand the angels following Cas. As a leader he has had 2 speeds 1) reluctant to lead (when he announced heaven had free will then didn't do much) and 2) slaughter every angel in sight. Neither recommends him as a leader. To be fair when he was in slaughter angels mode as Godstiel he kind of made it clear that the only angels he was killing were those that didn't follow him in the battle with Raphael, so maybe these angels have an already established loyalty?

    I actually didn't have an issue with Cas asking Dean to torture. Again, a lot of his history is doing things so the blame doesn't fall on him. Letting Sam go and not telling anyone he did it. Using Crowley as the front for the find Purgatory mission. Using Balthazar as the front angel to take the fall when bad things needed to be done like the Titanic episode. He has used Dean to torture before, he needed information from Ezra. He can't be seen by his followers as an angel who tortures. So he sets Dean on Ezra and whatever happens he can claim that the last time Dean tortured he said he hated it and Cas never thought he would go there again. Fortunately Sam came up with an alternative to get the information without tortured.



    I actually think this hiding from blame may be part of angel hard wiring. They were made to be creatures without free will, so they weren't supposed even make decisions that weren't handed down from above. They operated in secrecy for thousands of years. So Cas is behaving much like a lower level angel should.


    I do have all sorts of problems with the angels. We saw so little of Bartholomew and Malachi that I honestly have no idea why Sam and Dean should have cared about their war. Yes, getting the angels back to heaven would spare people from becoming vessels, but Sam and Dean haven't shown much interest in vessels for a long, long time.



    I guess I was less bothered by this episode because I knew who wrote it going in and I was expecting the types of problems it had. So I overlooked a lot.

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  13. I'm also bothered with the way the MOC story is playing out. It troubles me that no one has done any research regarding the MOC. Sam is not researching it. Dean is not researching it. Cas seems to have no thoughts about it. I mean what's the point of the story if no one is super worried about it? Sam is expressing some concern but not the level he has in the past when he's concerned about Dean, or the way Dean has for Sam in past stories.

    Remember season 3 when Dean was bound by his deal and Sam was in a constant state of unrest because of it? Remember how subtly they played that on the show, with small things like a modest Christmas party and Dean teaching Sam how to fix the Impala?

    Even last season Sam was reading about the trials all the time, researching, trying to find ways to speed things up. And they had Kevin, who was their constant source of what the trials mean to the person doing them.

    This season they seem to forget the MOC (like they did last episode) until the story demands they remember it. Even when they remember it, it's through irrational way like Dean telling Sam he knows he wouldn't save him if he were in peril. "Look, Dean's being a jerk because of the mark. Hahaha!"

    since when did Sam remember anything about the time when he was possessed?



    Since the writers needed him to spill that info to Castiel to facilitate Castiel's negotiations with Gadreel. I didn't gripe about that scene in the review because, as I said, the list was getting too long. But that was another instance of both characters acting ooc because of lol!plot. Sam shouldn't have remembered anything about his possession, and Castiel should have shown more concern over him instead of acting like a greedy inspector wanting to suck information out of him despite this being a delicate subject for Sam.

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  14. But Sam did mention early on in the season to feeling different (happier?), hindsight you can equate feeling happier with not feeling lonely. And then Sam said he was obvious wrong about hat he felt.

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  15. I agree with most of what you said about Castiel. I guess my issue is thinking he must have had an arc or character growth throughout the seasons with so much happening to him. Does the angel hardwiring really apply to him when he once declared himself a champion of Free Will and showed regret over other angels being like sheep? Does it apply to the post human state he is in now? I don't think the writers even bother with these question because all they think about is how to get character A from point B to point C. At least that is how it looks to me.

    I guess I was less bothered by this episode because I knew who wrote it going in and I was expecting the types of problems it had. So I overlooked a lot.



    Many seem to have. I write these reviews so I had to pay attention, and I must admit my head started spinning over the amount of writing I had to do.

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  16. Sam and Dean never really cared about the angels, trying to send them back to Heaven was really all they could do, and their leverage in hat regard was taken from them. The angel stuff is primarily Castiel's storyline, with Sam and Dean's involvement being on a more intimate level with the Gadreel possession.

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  17. That Sam debacle has bothered me since I saw it. Sam should remember nothing of the possession but since the writers wanted Casto recruit Gadreel to his side, Sam was suddenly OOC. I hate that type of writing!

    Yeah....nothing about the MOC story has been executed well to me - not even its effects on Dean - but it is the only story in which I'm interested. In better hands, it could have been an awesome story.

    Like you, I've written off the rest of the season. I really don't care what happens. I just want the new season. I'm not sure why cuz the writers haven't changed so I'm sure the story is not going to be any better next year than it was this year, but I guess I'm just sick of this season and want it to be done already!

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  18. But how does that apply in terms of Castiel's character profile? Has he always been an "ends justifies the means" guy? Then what was that dialogue in S04 about? Did he change because of what happened in season 6? Is he now a heartless bastard? Then why did he take Sam's illness into himself in season 7? Why did he stop beating on Dean in season 8 under Naomi's spell?


    It seems to me that Castiel doesn't really have a profile. He does different things in different situations without real explanation.

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  19. Working with Crowley, having Balthazar change history for the souls, blackmailing Jimmy Novak into becoming his vessel again.

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  20. I think that's stretching it. I don't equate Sam being happy with knowing there was another being his body, which is essentially what he told Cas. In order for Sam to answer Cas' s questions about Gadreel, Sam would have had to have insight into Gadreel. He simply didn't have that insight because he never knew Gadreel was sharing his body. That was my problem with the scene. It was dishonest and ignored what was established before.

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  21. Since Sam regained memories of the possession, he would retroactively have remembered how Gadreel felt when he took over.

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  22. Cas suffers from the same thing that afflicts Sam: he is written in accordance to the plot rather than his character, which is a horrible way to write. Dean is the only consistent character on this show.

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  23. Malachi's off screen death was hilarious. I remember when he was being cast and all the interviews were making out that he was going to be a big player or something. We saw him once right?

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  24. I disagree. In the FB, Sam saw Gadreel killing Kevin and doing some stuff. Sam referred to Gadreel as a psycho angel. He sees Gadreel and immediately wants to kill him. But now suddenly Sam knows him to be this nice, conflicted, misunderstood angel?!!?!

    Sam never had anything nice to say about Gad reel until this episode when Castiel conveniently needs Gadreel's help. It's obvious that the writers of this episode didn't care what was written before and decided to write what fit their story regardless of if that made sense in the story that had been previously told.

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  25. Okay so because we only saw a select few flashbacks in the episode means that he couldn't have possibly regained other ones.


    A misunderstood angel, that says he was obviously wrong about.

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  26. Yes. Once in Holy Terror. Blink and you missed him.

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  27. I think Abaddon had what Vampire Prime had in his episode: he was the biggest baddest thing around and could not fathom that a) Dick the Leviathan actually lied to his face and b) he was not the biggest baddest dude around (Edgar just wiped the floor with him until Sam and Dean ended that sucker). Abaddon wanted to enjoy her triumph and for that reason it felt more integral to the character for me than the usual villain monologuing (see Meg in Season 5 Episode 1, talk talk talk - even Dean said shaddup). Abaddon out of all of the villains they ever pursued ENJOYED HERSELF. She was evil and it was FUN. She obviously thought Dean, who had the Mark of Cain AND the First Blade, was really no match for her and she was ENJOYING it. It would have been out of character for her to immediately twist Dean's neck.
    SO I wholeheartedly disagree with you on Stupid Abaddon, Evil-for-Fun Abaddon was the character I saw every time she was on.
    I do have a question about the Ezra interrogation: did Dean go in there to be Bad Cop so that Sam could play Good Cop deliberately? It just went from whipping out the Angel Blade to giggling at hapless Ezra. I guess it ties in with the other Angel gripe, but it seems to me while angels are powerful now that their purpose has been taken from them they ALL are at loose ends. There were always differentiations in the angels, Samandiriel was naive but GOOD; Uriel was mission-oriented only, Cas saying he was the funniest angel in the garrison notwithstanding. It felt to ME that they had planned to go in there, threaten Ezra and then laugh at him. I have seen similar interrogation methods work in the past (I can't remember the episode now but I am SURE they've done it before).
    I was surprised at the "previously" length as well.
    Cas WAS a little OOC re torturing another demon; I was surprised he didn't ask Dean for Crowley's phone number so he could stick the needles in his head. Hey Dean, I need an angel tortured. Do you think Crowley is available? I'll check and call you back. Or have him call you back. OK? What's hanging?
    Gavin was meh; I THINK he was supposed to remind us that Crowley had "feelings" now.
    I don't know why they didn't kill him while he was incapacitated but MAYBE they want a sort of softer guy leading hell? After that I got nothing.

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  28. In Meta Fiction we learned that Sam absolutely hated Gadreel because of Kevin and the possession, so much so that Dean had to send him away and take over Gadreel's interogation. This is what we know so far about Sam.


    If they wanted to change Sam's stance all of a sudden there needed to be a transition. They had to show Sam thinking about the nice, misunderstood side of Gadreel, not leave it to us to speculate. This is again a case of what they needed to happen vs what we know as an audience. Sam needed to encourage Castiel to bring Gadreel in. He wouldn't have done so if he was still on the "I hate Gadreel" bandwagon so they made him sympathetic to the guy.

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  29. Okay, cool. He's the only person, well besides you with these reviews, that seems to really break a part something when he notices even the little things that just aren't right. While I disagree with most of these reviews from you, I gotta respect the time in looking at these details and wanting them to be different or better.

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  30. You're my Evil Twin. I couldn't agree more

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  31. Thanks ;)

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  32. Question, do you think there is going to be any mention of Abaddon's soul stealing demon army building factories again? I mean that seemed like a big thing that she was doing, yet it's not been mentioned since I don't think.

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  33. You mean this season? I doubt it. There are only two episodes left and the war with Metatron seems to be the finale storyline they are going with, which means the cliffhanger for the next season will be about that too. They might use it for a storyline next season, perhaps in a standalone with a demon who worked for her factory or something, but as far as Abaddon's grand plan is concerned I think it's over and dead along with her.

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  34. "But how does that apply in terms of Castiel's character profile? Has he always been an "ends justifies the means" guy"?"


    This question has been directly answered by canon. When Cas was extracting Gadreel's grace from Sam, he said that he no longer subscribed to the "ends justify the means" philosophy. He used to before, but not anymore and that moment was intended to solidify his character growth - as spotty as it has been.

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  35. hello, long time fan, i just want to let you know i really enjoy reading your gripe reviews, i agree with everything and i will be back next weekend to read your review on the next episode.
    Shante

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  36. "Bring back the S4 characterization of Castiel. I could see that guy commanding troops."

    I don't think S4 Castiel would fit the the person he is now. The authoritative stance Cas had then stemmed from his faith that he was doing the right thing. After all his failures and mistakes, I don't think he can be certain of that.

    I should've commented on this earlier, but Cas seems insecure and unsure only when he is with the Winchesters - out of the sight of his followers. When he is attending to the "matters of state" - like talking with Gadreel - he seems to be well in charge and sure of himself. I think it fits his profile - putting on a strong face for followers but letting his vulnerabilities show for his friends.



    "It troubles me that no one has done any research regarding the MOC."

    Both Sam and Dean were seen researching it on two separate occasions. However, there might not be much to research. Only one person has had the mark before and he was a powerful demon to begin with. The side-effects of the mark may not be documented or known to anyone. All anyone could say is that the mark possessed by the Father of Murder is a really, really bad idea.


    "Since when did Sam remember anything about the time when he was possessed?"

    Gadreel was actively suppressing anything and everything which might clue Sam into figuring out the possession. Sam feels like he is not alone - Gadreel makes him forget that. Sam hears a voice in his head - Gadreel makes him forget that he heard it. Sam feels like something is wrong with his body - Gadreel makes him forget that he felt it. Sam feels the vibes Gadreel gives off whenver he surfaces - Gadreel makes him forget those vibes.

    But when Crowley invaded his head and helped him remember everything - all those suppressed memories and emotions and memories of emotions come rushing back and now its like he never forgot.


    "Plus, what was the point of saying that Sam felt like Gadreel was just a misunderstood good guy"

    The point was to present Gadreel as a viable candidate for Cas to turn. And Sam and Dean's falling out was not over the fact of who was possessing him, but that he was being possessed.

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  37. "If they wanted to change Sam's stance all of a sudden there needed to be a transition."

    But Sam didn't change his stance. He still thinks of Gadreel as the psycho angel who killed Kevin. He is saying that his current memory of his possessed time does not betray any overt evil intents, but all that means is that his current memory can't provide a reliable judgment for Gadreel.

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  38. That, plus, he's the angel that could and did. He can make choices because he actually knows what free will is unlike most of the others who supposedly can only follow. They know they don't want to follow Metatron who cast them out of Heaven and no other leader, or former leader, is still living so who else are they going to follow? I can see where they are coming from even if it is poorly written or expressed.

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  39. After he tore up the newspaper clippings he painted the symbol that called angels on his motel wall. That is way they were all waiting outside for him. He doesn't want to lead the army but doesn't see another option.

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  40. While I found this one better than last week, I agree with everything. The show is in need of some major fresh writers. And to start dropping a couple of old ones already.

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  41. Maybe Crowley will take possession of them and send them after Metatron and the Stairway once Dean finds out where it is. He could use the Mark to have Dean become their commander (just for laughs). That would definitely be an, "oh, they went there" moment. ;-)

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  42. Loved your perspective on a logical reason for letting Crowley go! I would have totally bought that explanation, especially given how Crowley killed on of his minions in S7 for shortcutting crossroad deals.

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  43. At least it means something would happen haha

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  44. I think Gavin was played right, he had a bit awe at being in the future at the beginning, and then of course he learns his dad is a demon and the King of Hell, so that brings up some unresolved issues and they work it out.


    I'm kinda glad they didn't play it broad shocked man from another time, and did it more Ichabod Crane/Sleepy Hollow. He's curious but doesn't act like a caveman seeing a light bulb. He sees something that emanates light, and is hot to the touch, and rational asks if he can cook on it.

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  45. I actually enjoyed this episode because we finally had progression on the main plotlines this season and it was a welcome relief after the past few "filler" episodes that barely had the brothers in it at all. That being said, I didn't enjoy the entire episode and have a MAJOR gripe with this one.
    Gripe #1 - Completely agree. I know they like to remind us of the key things that will be shown in this episode, catch up those that haven't been paying attention or forgot. Even so, it was very long.
    Gripe #2 - Agree with this as well and it was my second least liked parts of the episode. The guy was such an obvious plant by Metatron I was bored before Cass even showed up in the room. I do like your point about the other angel that gave Erza the warning and agree that he might be the mole in Cass's rebel army. The show has gotten predictable enough for that.
    Guess we know now why Cass's rebellion was so strange back in season 4. Also, can now totally see why Anna would want to rip out her grace and fall rather than lead them.
    Gripe #3 - I've already replied to this and believe that the angels that do not want to fall in with Metatron who cast them all out of Heaven to begin with really do not have any other options. I also agree with the other comments that Cass is probably much more confident in front of his troops than he is with the brothers who he considers friends and confidants.
    Gripe #4 - First, Castiel never straight out asked them to "torture" Erza and the comment, "You had success with these situations before", can mean a lot of things. Like in S5, when Dean was trying to teach Castiel how to lie to get information from the police about Rafael. Castiel knows that Dean and Sam routinely have ways, various ways, to get information that don't always mean torture. He probably did think torture might come into it which is why he was uncomfortable asking but I got the impression that he was hoping for other ways to work. He did need the information but obviously didn't want it to go to that if possible. I believe Dean's response was an eye-opener to both Sam and Cass as to how much he's been changed by the Mark.
    Gripe #5 - I completely agree with this! It was completely ridiculous and cared on for way too long. I know a lot of fans enjoyed the simulated appearance of the brothers' bond begin back and flowing seamlessly but it was entirely too chessy and fake to me. I didn't find it believable at all, but then again, I didn't find Ezra believable either.
    Gripe #6 - This is my MAJOR gripe and the one that has me the most worried of all but not for the same reasons because I found the entire premise lazy and ridiculous. There were so many other ways of getting Crowley to bring the Winchesters and First Blade to her that the only reason they have for this move is to screw up the timelines. Sam even reinforces this adamantly at the end of the episode which just ticks me off. As soon as this happened, and, yes, I know I'm dating myself here, I had flashbacks of DALLAS and the infamous "Bobby-shower" scene, where the TV series completely wrote off a whole season as just a dream because the fans were so outraged over it. To me, there's not many other reasons for doing such on obvious device for unlimited retcon.
    I didn't care at all for any of the scenes with Gavin because that was all I saw with him, especially at the end, when Crowley escaped with him. I've heard from several fans that this is such an exciting and intriguing situation that they cannot wait to see where it goes but I, for one, am very afraid. I really hated the Titanic episode and that wasn't as long ago as this one. So, I really hate this particular device with a passion.
    Gripe

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  46. All of that was for a larger goal: averting the apocalypse (I.e. saving Sam & Dean). And he gave up on creating more souls because Fate threatened the Winchesters. He always puts their welfare above anything else. I find it incomprehensible that
    A) he would ask Dean to interrogate an angel after what happened with Alastair
    B) he would ask anyone to interrogate the angel after what happened with Samandriel and Naomi
    C) he wouldn't stay to see the interrogation
    D) he would let Dean interrogate ANYBODY while he had the mark of Cain
    I could go on and on, nothing about it made any sense from a character perspective.
    Like even if he does have followers, why couldn't he have patterned himself against MLK or Gandhi or St Francis of Assisi or something. And the Gadreel subplot was nonsensical.
    Frankly, I'm impressed with Tessa for being so restrained in her criticism

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  47. As I mentioned earlier, memories do not work that way. Sam can remember what Gadreel did while in his body but he cannot suddenly have all of these thoughts and feelings that he never had before. That's my issue with the scene. Sam isn't just remembering events; he gaining new feelings and thoughts. It doesn't make any sense.

    When Sam was hanging out with Charlie and Dean in his room, are we to believe that at that time he felt like there was another presence in his body but he just wasn't saying anything? No. We didn't think that because that's not what the show presented. Sam had no idea he was possessed and certainly never felt another being was with him. He can't suddenly say, "Yeah. I always felt he was there, but he seemed like a good guy." That's not accurate.

    The show simply wanted Cas to reach out to Gadreel so Sam suddenly knows him to be an OK being. It didn't make any sense.

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  48. And asking the Winchesters to interrogate Ezra was for the larger goal, and he even told Dean he didn't have to do it, if he wasn't up to it. Again it's still a case of ends justifying means.

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  49. I agree with everything you said, except I think Jensen is overacting his way through this storyline. Dean vs Abaddon had some cringworthy faces. It looked like he was trying to poop because of some serious constipation.

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  50. If I had to act out some of the scripts he's been handed the past few years, I would have more than a case of constipation...I'm thinking high blood pressure resulting in a stroke from hidden, built-up rage :)

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  51. You certainly taking your time to kick Jensen's acting in every singe review and topic. I've seen at least few clone posts on different discussion boards. I understand you don't like the actor and its fine but your persistence is strange.

    That's what director for - tell what kind of face actor has to make. And Jensen is certainly capable of making a variety of faces.

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  52. Thank you.

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  53. I completely agree with all the points mentioned here. In fact I had some more gripes in my mind. This season is a disaster. I feel sad that Jared, Jensen and Misha have had to go through bad writing for most part of the season

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  54. Funny thing is I don't find him a bad actor, not at all. He is good. I just think he is not being good with this storyline. The faces and excessive growling voice are killing it for me. When he tones it down, like after he drops the blade and looks at Sam confused, I find it way better and more natural. And I respect other opinions about him. I just don't think he is a second coming in terms of acting. I don't feel like wherever acting choices Jensen Ackles makes, are awesome by default. He is capable of doing wrong, just like the rest of us. I'm being polite, but there are reviews out there not impressed with his work in this storyline and some even with concern about what he is doing with his voice. You think he is being great. I don't. Let's just agree with disagree and move on ok? =D

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  55. You got a few facts wrong in the summary.

    Sam is not irrationally angry at being alive.
    Hellhounds are still invisible to the normals - as before, they are seen and heard only by those they are coming after.
    Metatron doesn't seem interested in rewriting history.

    I'm not sure that the whole Bobby's soul thing was erased by Gavin coming to the future. IIRC, there was a similar situation in season 4 when Dean went back and warned his mom about important stuff that could potentially unravel the whole plot. That plot-hole was fixed a season later when Michael erased all such memories.

    Possession is still supposed to be a bad thing.

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  56. Gavin was played right - by fictional standards.



    Or maybe I just have higher expectations from characters. I also wanted Ichabod Crane to be more interested in future developments as well. But in fiction, that is a rarity.

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  57. But Sam did have these thoughts and feelings before - Gadreel just suppressed them to prevent him from figuring things out. Sam isn't gaining new feelings or thoughts - just fully remembering the ones that were suppressed.



    Getting the idea that he was possessed would've required remembering many things. Remembering missing chunks of time (Sam seemed concerned in about it immediately after, but in the long run, he seemed to ignore it), remembering the feeling of not being alone, remembering feeling another presence etc.. Gadreel was suppressing all of these memories, but once they came back, he could retroactively figure a lot of other stuff out.

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  58. As I said before, Cas recently professed that be was no longer the "ends justify means" guy - when he healed Sam instead of extracting sufficient residual grace to track Gadreel. So, does this mean that his character development is being undone?

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  59. I think the only purpose of the whole souls-into-demons storyline was to show that Abaddon was, in fact, the worse of the two. Now that she is dead, I think that storyline will just quietly go away. Which is annoying, because it could've made for a pretty good excuse as to why they still need Crowley alive.

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  60. Well I've seen very similar posts on at least 3 boards with even similar wording. If its not you I apologize then. And you totally have right to you own opinion. And I DO NOT think every acting choice Jensen or Jared or Misha (insert your favorite) make are perfect by definition.
    But when I read " this scene proved that Jensen can not act" (and if it wasn't you I apologize again) I can not simply ignore that statement because it unfair to the talented (IMHO) actor who created such an iconic character as Dean Winchester.

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  61. Always enjoy your comments Martin.

    What was up with the other angels in the bar in the beginning?

    I was talking about them too. I couldn't believe they were implying those were angels who had just fallen from heaven and now were sitting around bar tables telling frat boy jokes that even I didn't understand. Where did the guy hear those stories in the few months he spent on earth? Why in hell aren't they discussing getting back to heaven, or telling Enochian jokes if they have to? These writers have no creativity whatsoever.

    Every time Cas has undertaken big missions, he has screwed up spectacularly.

    I get it. It's just the disservice this does to Cas' character and his development. If this was a "find your inner courage" story for Cas I would have agreed. He's screwed up too many times, now he doesn't believe in his own strength and this experience will allow him to find the courage he has buried inside.

    But that won't be the case. I know Cas' personal development is nowhere on Carver's radar and they will just wrap up the dozen plots they have going this season, introduce a cliffhanger for next season, and that would be it.

    A lot of time-travelers seem to have similar priorities.


    I know and it bugs me every time. But Crowley's son really took the cake. I couldn't believe when he said Crowley didn't even look like his father. Why would he all of a sudden believe these two and spill his guts then? Even if one has the biggest grudge against their father they wouldn't unleash it on a complete stranger in a completely strange setting. There was simply too much going on in that scene for Gavin's dialogue to be natural.

    They were looking for demons and Sam didn't have enough reason to think that Dean was lying.

    What bothers me though is how they turn Sam on and off on this issue. One scene we have him okey-dokey with Dean going off on his own with the Blade in his hand, the next we have the car scene where he is livid about Dean wanting to go off on his own with the blade. Make up your minds, writers.

    I've gotten to used to this trope that it no longer bothers me. The Big Bad thinks Winchesters are weak, puny humans who could never harm them.



    But this one had the Mark of Cain and the First Blade. I could swallow big bads underestimating the Winchesters when it's only them and a gun or angel blade. But Abaddon was facing the only human who could kill her. You'd think she would take it a bit more seriously than creating a wind tunnel for the guy.


    I loved your Crowley scenario. It not only explains why the boys let Crowley go, it also neatly ties up the soul factory loose end. I sometimes think about these kinds of solutions too. How some plotholes could have easily been avoided through logical dialogue, possibly backed up by a safeguard the writers put there a while ago to make sure they wouldn't get stuck when they reached the end. I'd say that would require some skillful writing, but we're not even in the business and already we come up with better scenarios that these hacks.

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  62. Thank you, Shante. It warms my heart to know people enjoy these reviews and come back for more. Makes all the hard work that goes into them worth it.

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  63. Thank you Theresa for the comment.

    Gripe #3 - I've already replied to this and believe that the angels that do not want to fall in with Metatron who cast them all out of Heaven to begin with really do not have any other options.

    That's what Cas seems to believe too. But Cas was involved in their fall. His naivete was one of the reasons they happened in this situation in the first place. Wouldn't they at least interview him before starting to follow him blindly?

    I guess my problem is that I can't get a read on the angels. They seem to be like baby ducklings, following the first entity that shows up on their path. But then we have the likes of Bartholomew and Malachi who are greedy, and Gadreel who wants to restore his name, and it becomes a mystery. If angels are simply robots who look to follow orders what sets these ones apart?

    Castiel never straight out asked them to "torture" Erza and the comment, "You had success with these situations before", can mean a lot of things.

    That's an interesting take on the situation. But I think it's telling that a large number of fans saw that scene as Cas asking Dean to torture Ezra and were concerned about it. My gripe is that Cas knew Dean wore the mark and as an angel, he must have had a better understanding of what it did to the bearer. He should have stayed from asking Dean anything that might lead to violence simply based on that knowledge.

    A better way they could have played that scene would have been for Cas to just mention the prisoner and Dean volunteering to do the interrogation. It would have had brought a stronger attention to the effect of the mark without making Cas seem like an insensitive opportunist.

    I agree with the gripe but knew that she was going down this ep so I didn't really think anything of it.

    I keep hearing this from many fans and it saddens me that most of us have become used to the writers not producing interesting, logical scenarios for important characters.

    But the most glaring thing was allowing Crowley to escape with Gavin and leaving Gavin in the future. Like I said before, no good can come of this.



    This is similar to so many other element of the Supernatural canon that these two writers have stomped on. I don't think they even realize how problematic this is. They probably don't even remember the Titanic episode or Appointment in Samara, or if they do they choose to ignore them because nothing matters more that their own story.

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  64. Thank you Ginger. Never fear to leave a long comment. For me those are the best parts of writing these reviews.

    Their disillusion all goes to the characters serving the plot, making them say and do things that these well-known characters would never do (or say, for that matter).

    I'm feeling sad about this, but also justified that I'm not the only one thinking this is true. It's as if the writers have grabbed the characters by the collar and forced them to do things.

    But it’s even more than that this season – there is no story being told to plot. All we have had are plot bunnies jumping out of their hole once in a while and then jumping back in.

    I agree, but that's been a problem since Season 6 IMO. The new showrunners don't have much confidence in their own storytelling, so they introduce and drop stories like car stickers, and see which ones stick. However in those earlier seasons they kept the core personalities of the characters. Castiel still put Dean first even when he had a grand plan like taking over Purgatory. The brothers would fight but not be as insanely alienated as they were this season.

    the writers appear to have taken away the ‘profound bond,’ have made Cas look like the dumbest angel in the universe, and appear to dream up stories or versions just for the sake of fan service to keep Misha around.

    I'm feeling the same way and it makes me sad because it is Cas, not Misha, for whom I watch the show. I miss his connection with Dean, and hate the dumb stories these writers have cooked up and sacrificed that relationship for.

    I felt this writing team was using two loved characters and actors to speak directly to the fans (looking directly into the camera even) over the fans’ complaints about their poor writing and canon trashing.



    I've heard that theory too, and if it's true, the writers have sunk to a new low after showing a fan attempting to rape Sam in season 7. Good thing the network seems to pay more attention to fans otherwise that abominable spin-off Bloodlines would have been a go.

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  65. If I had to act out that dreadful interrogation scene we saw in this episode, I would have asked for compensation for pain and suffering on the job. :D

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  66. "But Crowley's son really took the cake."

    I can think of worse examples. Like the people on Lost and their apathy towards what the island or how it works or why exactly is it so damn important.





    "What bothers me though is how they turn Sam on and off on this issue."

    I'm not sure if Sam was okay with it. IIRC, Dean just told him to check the basement, grabbed the covered blade and walked off. Sam probably just chose not to press the issue just then. I'm guessing that Sam wants Dean to minimize his contact with the blade, but understands that where there is imminent risk - like looking for demons - Dean has to take it up. Besides, I think Sam was more angry about Dean once again lied to protect Sam - as far as he knew.





    "I could swallow big bads underestimating the Winchesters when it's only them and a gun or angel blade."


    I think Abaddon thought that that was all she was facing - that's my point. She thought that it was the blade that could kill her - with the mark acting as activating agent - and she thought that the blade could be destroyed. I don't think she expected it to confer all the extra powers to the bearer - she looked quite surprised when Dean broke free.

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  67. "But Cas was involved in their fall. His naivete was one of the reasons
    they happened in this situation in the first place. Wouldn't they at
    least interview him before starting to follow him blindly?"

    Quick question - are all the other angels aware that Cas caused the fall? They seem to know that Cas has some connection to Metatron, but they may be ignorant of his actual role.

    Some angels knew about his role - ofcourse - but the writers could be heading up to that 'twist' - Castiel's actual role is revealed and the other angels feel betrayed by their leader.

    "A better way they could have played that scene would have been for Cas
    to just mention the prisoner and Dean volunteering to do the
    interrogation."

    That would've resulted in another set of plot-holes. Cas asked the Winchesters to come over specifically to interrogate the prisoner. Your scenario would require him to have another excuse for the brothers and then, coincidently, siccing him on Ezra.




    "They probably don't even remember the Titanic episode."


    I think they did remember it here. The Winchesters were quite insistent on sending him back because letting him stay could result in "a ripple effect that changes everything". Crowley's answer was that Gavin was too unimportant to affect anything.



    And the writers might be planning on fixing this mistake somewhere down the line - they did so before.

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  68. Point #1: I think he is. He's alive, Dean got beat to Hell to save him in 9.01, and there has been nothing shown to indicate how Sam got from choosing to live in 8.23 to choosing to die in 9.01 or that Sam's death would have benefited anyone...unless you believe that Metatron would not have killed Kevin if Gad had not been possessing Sam. I don't believe that for a minute.
    Point #2: Sam and Dean both heard and/or saw the hellhound, and neither have a soul on the line at the moment.
    Point #3: Metatron said God submitted his first draft and he's not writing a new version of the Winchester Gospels, because the Winchesters are just now beginning to come into the angel storyline. I assume he is writing his own version of world history and how humankind comes to an end. Maybe not. Maybe he is writing some Jackie Collins' novels.

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  69. Castiel also stopped when he was taking Sam's grace out because he said finding Gadreel/Metatron didn't justified Sam dying or worse. So the change was pretty darn recent.

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  70. Oops, somehow that post just flew up on it's own accord. Let me finish.
    Point #4: Until there is some explanation of Gavin returning to his own time or there is a Supernatural shower scene (like Dallas), Bobby's soul story is questionable at best.
    Point #5: According to show canon, possession is a really bad thing, but Sam's explanation of his possession didn't sound all that bad to me. It actually sounded like it was almost a calm time in Sam's life.
    Believe what you want. With the writers building their story like the Winchester Mystery House, I don't think anybody's view of the facts can be wrong or right.

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  71. LOL! You would have gotten it, too.

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  72. Point #1 - Sam is angry about how he was saved - not about being saved itself. That is why he chose to die in 9.01 - he was afraid of there being a fallout from him being saved. And yes, Sam does believe that Metatron might not have been able to kill Kevin if he had not been possessed.

    Point #2 - Who said anything about having a soul on line? We're just talking about who the hellhound is after. Hellhounds don't just go after people who make deals, remember - see 5.10 and 5.20.

    Point #3 - Jackie Collin's novel seems more likely.

    Point #4 - And the question-mark will remain until the plot-hole is resolved. Like back when Dean met his parents for the first time, there was a similar plot-hole induced question mark when he gave certain dire warnings and there was a specific 10-year deal. That was resolved in the next season when they went back again and Michael erased their memories.

    Point #5 - That's because Sam wasn't possessed in the way people usually are - he remained in control of his actions most of the time. The reason possession is considered bad is because of loss of agency - and Sam didn't lose his agency for the whole period of possession, only for parts of it. And he didn't seem to be talking about those parts here.

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  73. Quick question - are all the other angels aware that Cas caused the fall?

    Good question, I'm not sure. Depends on what the angel mythology is right now. There used to be an angel radio where everything that happened got broadcast to their collective consciousness. I thought maybe something like Castiel's grace being stolen from him and used to crash their mainframe would be something that would appear on headline news.

    That would've resulted in another set of plot-holes.

    Cas should not have to ask the other two main characters of the show to join the current mythology. They should be a part of it by default, not guest staring on someone else's never-to-be-aired show in Chicago instead. If the writers treated the story in a sensible manner there would have been no need for Cas to call Sam and Dean.

    I think they did remember it here. The Winchesters were quite insistent on sending him back because letting him stay could result in "a ripple effect that changes everything". Crowley's answer was that Gavin was too unimportant to affect anything.



    Ok, they remembered it, but fudged it with the excuse of Gavin not being important. How could Crowley know that? Is he psychic and somehow we were never told? What if Gavin joins a terrorist group in the future and kills some important government official who was supposed to stop a war?

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  74. Remember Sam has been possessed before and lost his soul, so he should be able to sense if something not right. They have also explained through the series that people being possessed do think and feel when the possession is happening, maybe it could be a Sam thing who knows? everyone else remembers and feels when being possessed but Sam didn't when Meg possessed back him in Season 2.

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  75. Has it ever been actually stated that Cain is a demon? Now it makes sense that he would be but he never did the eye thingie and seemed so reasonable. Also he appeared to be genuinely deeply in love with Collette. Azazel seemed to have feelings for Meg and Tom but I don't know. This is sort of up in the air for me.
    I do agree with you re the status of Gadreel's possession of Sam. I thought in every case the vessel/meat suit COULD see what was going on when they were possessed too.

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  76. I wish they had had that conversation; four minutes tops.

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  77. "Cas should not have to ask the other two main characters of the show to join the current mythology."

    But that has always been the case with Castiel's storyline since season 6. All the angel business and troubles in heaven are treated as Castiel's problems to deal with and the Winchesters are simply invited along for the ride when he feels they'd be useful. That seems to be their default position. You didn't expect them to change that simply because your alternative would be better, did you?


    "Ok, they remembered it, but fudged it with the excuse of Gavin not being important."

    I think the main concern here is not changing the past. Supposedly, if Gavin goes back, he boards the ship to US and dies - thus not affecting much there. He stays here, the ship still sinks and everything in the past remains the same. How he might affect the future from this point onwards is not matter of great concern - as long as the past remains unchanged.

    However, we know for certain one aspect of the past that was directly affected by him. Bobby used Gavin's ring to summon his soul and get the location of Crowley's bones. The bones which he then used to negotiate getting out of his deal while keeping his legs.

    How did Gavin's changed fate affect those events? And if it didn't, why not? That is a big plot-hole for which there is no current explanation. However, we have encountered such a plot-hole before - when Dean visited the past the first time and it was resolved one season later quite satisfactorily - when he visited the second time. So, hopefully, they'll repeat this with Gavin.

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  78. Dean: So tell me about this Cain.

    Crowley: After Cain killed Abel he became a demon.

    Dean: What do you mean "became a demon".

    Crowley: I mean he became the deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth. Killed thousands. The best at being the worst.

    That was the conversation between Dean and Crowley while waiting in Cain's drawing room. So, yes, it has been stated that he is a demon.

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  79. Dude, one minute tops. And that one minute could've been taken out of the over-long recap.

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  80. Wow I do not remember that. I just remember that Cain did not ACT like he was a moustache-twirling bad guy and all the demons I have ever seen just acted like they were LOOKING to do some fun evil someplace.
    I find it funny that that went right by me.
    Of course MOST of what Crowley said about what was going on that whole episode was untrue but this WAS a direct statement I should've remembered.
    Thank you.

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  81. Oh you definitely seem to have some sort of agenda against Jensen because nearly every comment you make is a bash against him. I never see any kind of criticism on this site of Jared or Misha's acting. Ever. But it never fails, you have to criticize Jensen at every turn. And I'm very glad to see others comment about it as well, so it's obviously noticeable.

    You responded to someone who had an opinion about Jensen's performance being good, so why did you feel that you just HAD to respond to that? Why not allow other people to have their own opinion in their review post and just leave it alone? Especially since you have already made your own opinion clear in many other comments? But no, you just keep going and going with your bashing.

    I've read that people think it's Jared who gets bashed by fandom. Ha. I think you've proven that completely wrong.

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  82. No, you are correct. It is MythAI who always criticizes Jensen - and ONLY Jensen - after every single episode. And if anyone dares to have a different opinion, such as Ginger here, then MythAI will once again, set everyone straight about Jensen's poor acting.

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  83. Aw, I thought the Sam and Dean interrogation scene was cute, but yeah, it went on for far too long. I love Allaina, but I agree again that they really dumbed-down Abaddon in this episode and it's too bad, because I thought she was a great villain. I hated Castiel using Dean to torture the angel. Why would he do that when he's knows all too well that's something that Dean truly hates about himself? Ugh.

    I just think in general, the scripts are not nearly as tight as they used to be. I don't think Carver has enough of a grasp on the overall mytharc/season storyline and doesn't provide enough of a framework for the writers, and individual (especially mytharc) episodes suffer because of it.

    I hear Revolution was cancelled though so... come back Kripke! And Edlund!

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  84. I painfully agree with this Gripe Review. There were moments that were cringe-worthy but the 'dumb-Angel-interrogation' really takes the cake. And there were lots of moments to choose from. It was just so embarrassing it made me hiss.
    Abaddon's death scene was so over-the-top. The visual effects were weird. And what was up with the frigging wind?


    This season as a general is a huuuge mess. There's no direction, no general plan. It's like they made the episodes at random and assembled them willy-nilly. The interesting characters were stashed somewhere with Jimmy Hoffa until there was just one anti-climactic minute left of screen time to deal with them (bye bye big bad nemesis Abaddon : you weren't so tough after all...).
    Cas is naive bordering dumb one second and a badass warrior the next. It's giving me whiplash. Come on, for the love of all that is holy, can they just be consistent with his character?


    The showrunner isn't supposed to make us viewers want to run away from the show. The writers are just a major disappointment, not just as the plot is concerned but also in terms of basic dialogue. I loved the wit of the early seasons, the pop culture references etc. Now the dialogues are out-of-character and downright stupid.
    And don't get me started on the relationship between the Brothers (sigh).


    Now I just watch because I have a Stockholm Syndrome thing going on. I like the actors but man does the plot suck.... What people take as parallels I take as lack of imagination. They keep doing the same damn things, the characters keep making the same mistakes. I think what it just comes down to is that the writers just don't care anymore.


    Usually I'm one to read bad reviews or criticisms and think "if you don't like the show, what are you doing here commenting on it?" but I just can't help myself. I liked Supernatural so much and I'm still invested in it, hoping to see the writing get better.
    I'll watch until the end of the show, just like you endure a family member that annoys the hell out of you because even if it's frustrating, what can you do? It's family.

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  85. My point is that Castiel's 'ends' are always, first and foremost to protect the Winchesters. Even his large goals - preventing the apocalypse - which is why he had to wage war on Raphael, which is why he needed souls, which is why he first tried to save the titanic and then opened purgatory ... all boil down to protecting the winchesters, even at the cost of his own life.
    That's not a person who's coldly pursuing his own goals, which is what you seem to imply. That's a character that's driven to extreme lengths by trying to do the best by others.

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  86. I wholeheartedly disagree with Castiel's goals being first and foremost to protect the Winchesters. We have seen so many variations of Cas, and it is always some version to serve the story.

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  87. My point is Sam didn't know he was possessed, and he actually wasn't in the usual sense of the word.


    Gadreel left Sam in control of his body for the most part. There were a few occasions where he took over, but Sam didn't notice them. For instance, remember the time Sam was speaking, and in mid-sentence Gadreel appeared and then went away, and Sam continued to speak w/o missing a beat? In that moment, Sam didn't feel possessed. He felt fine.


    If Sam was in control 99% of the time, why would he feel like another person was in his body? How could he sense how that other being felt? The whole point of the story was that Sam was clueless about Gadreel being there, but now, he suddenly wasn't. He always knew Gadreel was there. Huh?


    I'm okay w/the story being that Sam knew, but I think that should have been established back when that whole arc was hot and ongoing. I find it strange that we learn in the 21st episode that Sam knows Gadreel well enough to vouch for him to Cas. It all seemed like a retcon to me.

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  88. Well, he did break the wall in Sam's mind to try and keep Sam, Dean and Bobby away.

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