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Supernatural 9.14 "Captives" Review: A Prison of Our Own Making

26 Feb 2014

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    Supernatural returned this week with “Captives” written by Robert Berens and directed by Jerry Wanek. Wanek, of course, is also the wonderful production designer of the show who is responsible for the beautiful Men of Letters bunker. This is the second episode that Berens has penned and the second that Wanek has directed, and they both delivered in a big way. Of course, the highlight of the episode was the return of not one but two characters we thought we’d seen the last of: Kevin (Osric Chau) and Linda (Lauren Tom) Tran. But hey, this is Supernatural – no one is ever really dead, right?

    The episode plays on the title “Captives” in a number of ways. Most obviously it refers to the captives that Crowley (Mark Sheppard) is holding at Castle Storage. It also refers to all the dead who are being held captive in the veil because they can’t move on because Heaven is closed for business, thanks to Metatron. Castiel (Misha Collins) is held captive by Bartholomew (Adam Harrington). In another sense, the angels are held captive by their own obedience. Even Del (James Immekus), the captor of Linda and Candy (Lina Roessler), is a captive in his servitude to Crowley. Dean becomes a captive of Del too. Finally, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are captives in their unhealthy relationship. This is nicely emphasized by them being closeted in their separate rooms – they are as much captives in their chosen cells as Mama Tran is in her storage locker. Dean’s headphones almost mimic Mama Tran’s chains.

    The “Then” scenes end with Sam telling Dean that Dean only saved him because Dean didn’t want to be alone. When Sam tells Dean that in his place, Sam wouldn’t have saved Dean, Dean is perhaps as alone as if Sam had died, and this is picked up as the episode begins. The episode begins with the brothers isolated in their rooms, but the signs of a ghost quickly launch them into hunter mode. A quick shout out to the VFX team for the ghost effects throughout the episode. Sam grabs an iron sword while Dean goes for his shotgun. Sam may want to put distance between himself and his brother, but his worry for Dean when he can’t find him shows that he can’t simply stop caring. I loved Ackles delivery of “Yep. Bunker’s haunted.”

    Dean doesn’t want to believe that it’s Kevin but is forced to admit that it is. Ackles is terrific as Dean tries to apologize to Kevin while encouraging him to manifest. Sam may be ready to care about Dean’s physical well-being, but he doesn’t seem to notice Dean’s distress when he enters the kitchen.

    It was fantastic to see Chau back as Kevin. I have to admit that I was really hoping that we were actually going to get to keep Kevin in the bunker as a friendly ghost. Of course, as they warn Mrs Tran at the end of the episode, all ghosts eventually seem to go mad and get angry. We do get an answer to a question that has been floating around for a while. With the gates of Heaven closed, no one is getting in, so all the dead are stuck in the veil. It must be getting pretty crowded by now. This might be another reason Metatron has come back to earth. If there are no new residents in Heaven, maybe he is running out of new stories to amuse himself with.

    Of course, Kevin would be smart enough to figure out what was going on and to be able to devise a way to communicate with others. Kevin would appear to have become a bit of a leader, and of course, he managed to communicate and manifest from the veil quickly. It’s clear from Dean’s reaction that he is immediately committed to finding Mrs Tran if that will help to make it right with Kevin.

    The brothers work the case, but it’s not without some friction. When Dean calls Crowley, Sam gives him a hard time about it, saying that Crowley isn’t answering because he’s just not that into Dean. Dean responds that he knows Crowley is a flaming douche. In the car, discussing the case, Dean points out that it’s unlikely Crowley had Candy killed. Once again, Sam gives Dean a hard time for taking Crowley’s – the King of Hell after all – side. Dean snarks back that he’s just working the case, and Sam rolls his eyes. Of course, when pushed into a corner and isolated from friends and family, Dean tends to make bad choices – Crowley is the same kind of “bad” friend as Gordon Walker was or even the crossroads demon. Of course, Dean also is sensible enough to discourage Del from calling Crowley before they can rescue Mrs Tran.

    I was not a particular fan of Mrs Tran before this episode, but Lauren Tom more than brought her A-game to this episode and delivers a powerful performance on every level. Her terror when Sam first finds her is very different than the strong, self-assured tiger-mommy we’ve seen in the past. I loved it when she essentially shoves Sam out of the way to hot wire the door, underscoring her devotion to Kevin by explaining that she’d learned a thing or two helping him with his school projects.

    Padalecki is also fantastic in this scene as he struggles with whether or not to tell Mrs Tran that Kevin is dead. His anguish at the pain he knows it will cause her and his own guilt over the death are clear to read on his face. I loved that he didn’t have to say it, and she proved her status as tiger-mommy by not allowing herself to give in to her grief, channelling her feelings into anger and determination.

    Misha Collins also delivers an outstanding performance as Castiel finally finds his way. He meets one of the ‘penitent’ who have renounced making war and are living humbly among the humans. They are trying to get back in touch with their true purpose – to watch over and protect humans. Cas is captured by Bartholomew, who we learn had been a follower of Cas when he was in charge of Heaven. Bartholomew has embraced a path completely antithetical to the penitent. He attempts to recruit Cas, but Cas refuses to fight – though he is ready to defend himself and kills Bartholomew. I was a bit disappointed to see Harrington go as he’s been great. He does a terrific job in this episode showing that Bartholomew is really treading a thin line between madness and obsession.

    This episode is actually a nice payoff for Cas’s journey. His own experience with pride and attempting to lead through fear and might give him the insight to understand and reject Bartholomew’s offer. For Bartholomew, it’s all about methods and that’s what Cas ends up rejecting. Bartholomew does make some good points, however. He presses Cas on exactly what he’s trying to accomplish. Bartholomew is right that Cas will have a much harder time challenging Metatron on his own. I thought it was both hilarious and telling when Bartholomew remarked that “resistance is futile” – just like the Borg on Star Trek. His vision is blind obedience to his rule, but Cas has a healthy respect for free will. Cas proves his humility by telling Bart that he is nothing and walking away from taking over Bart’s faction. His own time spent as human has given Cas a new appreciation for humans as we saw in “First Born.” It is Cas’s commitment and belief that now bring him followers – he has become a reluctant leader, but he’s never been more prepared to be a good leader.

    In the end, Cas does kill Bart, and the brothers let Mrs Tran kill Del. Is anybody else disturbed by the fact that no one seems concerned with the human vessels anymore? There seems to be no attempt to exorcise the demons – or angels – as there was with Meg in season one.

    The reunion between Mrs Tran and Kevin is short but poignant. Dean warns her that taking Kevin with her may be dangerous. She responds that it’s her job as a mother to take of him and keep him safe. Kevin says almost the same thing about her. He feels terrible that she was held and tortured for a year because of him and he says she’s his responsibility. Both Kevin and Mrs Tran echo Dean’s sentiments about family. Sam tells Kevin that he had been the brothers’ responsibility and that they’d let him down. Kevin quickly absolves Sam from any responsibility, saying he knew it wasn’t Sam that did it. Dean reiterates that they are going to get Kevin to Heaven. He tells Kevin to enjoy his time with his mother – he makes a joke out of it: “the uninterrupted twenty-four seven, no escape, quality time.” Kevin calls him a dick, but it’s no secret that Dean would like nothing better than to have that kind of time with his own mother or his brother.

    Kevin’s final words to the brothers are to ask them to promise him something – to get over it. “The drama the fighting? It’s stupid.” Kevin tells him that even though he’s a ghost and they couldn’t see him, he could see them. This felt like a wonderful message from the fans – who are also always watching and many of whom are done with the fighting between the brothers. He reminds them that he’s going home a ghost but that they both still have each other. Sam promises, but it’s clear that he doesn’t mean it and that is reinforced by his simply walking away as soon as Kevin and Mrs Tran are out the door. Dean promises, but he clearly knows that Sam doesn’t mean it, so he’s not shocked to turn around in mid-sentence and to find Sam gone, though he is disappointed. However, when Sam gets back to his room, he hesitates at his door as if he’s reconsidering. Padalecki does a wonderful job here too as we see Sam shake himself and firm his resolve to keep his brother at arm’s length. Dean returns to his room and cocoons himself in his music once again. The closeup of Dean’s face deep in thought makes me nervous – Dean with too much time to think could be a dangerous quantity. The brothers end the episode much as they started it – captives in a solitude of their own making.

    What did you think of the episode? Are you totally done with the fighting? Is there a glimmer of hope here that we might be getting past it? Were you happy to see Kevin and Mrs Tran again? I’d bet we’ll see them again before the end of the year. Do you think it’s a good idea for Castiel to take a leadership role again? Let me know your thoughts in the comments below!

200 comments:

  1. I loved the fact that we've got to see Kevin again and that "the bunker in haunted" actually made sense. Mrs Tran was great and I hope we'll see both her and her son again. But here is the question - of closing heaven made impossible for souls to go there, what would have happened if they managed to close the gates of hell? Of course, it doesn't have to be the same but still, there is a possibility.


    Also, Candy mentiones three captives - did they tell what happened with the third one? Maybe I just didn't hear it...


    I for one don't want brothers to just "get over it" and sweep all their issues under the carpet for the time being so that they could use them again when they need another brotherly angst. I want them to resolve their problems and come out of this more mature and in a healthy relationship with each other.


    I loved that Castiel will become the leader and hopefully he'll manage to make sth right and rectify his mistakes.
    Also, was it the first episode with Cas in it that didn't have him mention the Winchesters or the other way round?


    I found Bart a bit boring but glad that there was a callback to earlier seasons and the war in heaven.


    Overall, I really liked the episode and I hope we'll get more like this one :)

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  2. I enjoyed most of the episode, especially seeing Kevin and his mom, but I think the brothers need to have it out for once. I mean really have it out. They have been lying to each other since Season 2 and they really have to stop. Maybe a real strong, break and smash things, type fight? Some hard truths and maybe (finally) have Sam say what is on his mind. Dean says what he thinks and goes for it but most of the time, Sam doesn't. We saw Dean lying on his bed, listening to music and thinking. What was Sam doing? Research? Reading Game of Thrones? Plotting? Enough is enough when it comes to the distrust, the snarky comments, the silence and the lying.
    The storyline about the heaven being closed, and Castiel possibly becoming a better leader ( because he understands humanity ) were great lines and I would like to see more of that coming out but I have to admit I want the brothers story line to finally get straightened out first. Fix the boys and then get everything else done.

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  3. First I thought Dean was making a tactical mistake when he told he and Crowley were good. Crowley would probably be the only demon that would help him so Crowley being summoned would just increase Dean’s odds of surviving. For a moment I thought the demon was going to call Abaddon instead because of the news.

    I, too, was bothered that they didn’t seem to verify whether the host was dead before stabbing him.

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  4. There were parts of the ep that I really enjoyed, Kevin and Mom, Cas, but I am very tired of Sam and his reverting to a 12 year old and slamming the door to pout. It is getting so old and I am having a hard time even caring what he thinks any longer.

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  5. Lots of great points here! They never did mention the 3rd captive! I don't think Kevin meant for them to sweep it under the rug. They've hashed all this out again and again - they need to get out of the rut they are in and simply walk away from it, let it go, and get on with their lives. I think you've hit the nail on the head with shutting the gates of Hell - absolutely no reason to believe that those souls wouldn't have been trapped in the veil - so imagine the insanely evil ghosts that would have produced! Another reason for not shutting the gates of hell - wonder if the boys will eventually figure that one out too?
    Yes. They always do care when Sam is the vessel - LOL!

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  6. I definitely think that Kevin said what all the fans are thinking - and saying for that matter! I think we do get to see both their reactions - Dean has closed himself off, he's steeling himself to be alone. We see Sam run away from Dean, but we also see him hesitate and really struggle with himself before he goes into his room. Sam's weakening in his resolve to keep his brother at arm's length. The problem at this point is really what do they do to find some middle ground? The writers need to pick a solution and have done with it. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a solution out there that will please even 50% of the fans - regardless of how they "fix" this, there's going to be a lot of dissatisfaction I think.

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  7. As soon as Dean convinced him not to call Crowley, I thought Del was going to call Abaddon too! Shame on Dean though if he couldn't play such a low level demon...
    I really miss them at least trying to save the host...

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  8. Agree! Though, in Sam's defense here, I think he slammed the door in frustration rather than anger at the end. He really had to steel his resolve to go in the room and shut Dean out. But wow did Kevin say what virtually every fan is saying - it's nice to see the writers' room acknowledge it at least...

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  9. Exactly! They could have added something to the scene to make it work. I mean they didn't really give Dean’s Crowley speech any other purpose than to anger the demon further. Dean was seconds away from being stabbed before Sam came in and rescued him.

    I hope that Linda Tran had at some point during her capture deducted that the host was dead because otherwise it was just way too malicious especially on the brothers’ part.

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  10. Linda had been there for a year, so there's a good chance the host was dead.


    I felt like the scene was done partially to show that Dean just isn't good at manipulation or strategy right now. He's so burnt out.

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  11. What i don't understand is the reason for keeping Sam and Dean in this limbo of bro-angst.
    If it helped in making the episodes more interesting or tense, it would be acceptable, but it only annoys the majority of viewers.
    The brothers have argued before, but in the span of a couple of episodes they vented and were ok again.
    x
    At the end of season seven they were fine with each other, so why the need for this continuous stress between them?
    Sam has always chosen Dean any time he has had a choice, even in this Carver era; he remains with his brother even now when their relationship is so strained.
    What is Carver trying to prove? I really don't get what he is trying to do.
    x
    I too was upset that Mrs. Tran killed the demon, the host could still have been alive. In the end Sam was more merciful when he used his demon powers to exorcise them.

    She shouldn't have been as angry with the demon anyway as it was an angel who killed her son.

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  12. I so love the kickass powerful Castiel, the angel war is getting interesting at last.
    With all this said, I still couldn't enjoy Cas parts b/c I was/am extremely angry about the brothers. Just let them go their separate ways, enough w/ this childish set up. I certainly don't want another POV from Sam b/c we saw what Carver is putting in his POV, but I'm really lost about what's going on in his mind. And the non-stop snide remarks?! You sure it's an appropriate behavior for business partners, Sam? They're regressing Sam to the angry kid he was in the beginning, who fought w/ his father even after not seeing him for years.
    Just God help me if they resolve this mess w/ a few cryptic lines like in Sacrifice, forget about an 11th season, I'm not sure whether I can keep my interest up for the 10th season.

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  13. I thought that the end was hilarious. I know Sam is angry, but stuff like this is so immature, he 30 years old isn't he?

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  14. Am I the only one wondering what happened to Snooki who was featured in the some trailers for this episode? (Not that I miss her)

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  15. I think it was trailer for more episodes. That promo also showed Crowley, who wasn't in this episode either.

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  16. It never ceases to amuse me that when Dean has done something wrong, all the characters are scrambling to tell him that he only did it in the best intentions or to tell Sam to get over it. Yet when it's Sam that has done wrong, all the characters are lining up to tell him just how wrong he is! Last season Dean held Sam believing he was dead against him for half a season (he was still bringing it up at the end of the season) no-one got tired of Dean throwing it in Sam's face but now when Sam isn't rushing to forgive and forget what Dean did, people want him to just get over it!!


    I'm glad Sam is standing his ground. Dean has said that he's not sorry for what he did and that he'll do it again so why exactly should Sam be rushing back to their old relationship? He can't trust Dean any more, especially when Dean doesn't even see the wrong in what he did. Perhaps Dean needs to be possessed and some heinous act is committed using his body before he can truly understand.


    There was also direct parallels to past seasons. What proof did Dean have that Mrs. Tran was dead? Dean just believed she was and didn't look for her, the exact same as Sam last season. The parallels between their actions over the seasons have been huge. Perhaps these similarities will bring Dean to a place where he can understand Sam.

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  17. But they never verify that the host is dead. Meg was possessed for over a year and was still alive until she got thrown out of a building etc...

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  18. In Mrs Tran's defense, that demon had kept her captive and tortured her for over a year - it was payback for what he'd done to her.
    I agree that Sam's demon powers were, in the end, more merciful.
    Sam states in the "Then" flashbacks that he wouldn't save Dean in the same circumstances - at any cost. He also didn't look for Dean when Dean was in Purgatory don't forget - Sam doesn't always choose Dean. In the end, I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing either.
    Sometimes I think that the writers go by any publicity is good publicity, so if you rile up the fans and get them talking (complaining) that's keeping their interest. They've also stated that conflict is the heart of drama (it is). However, they've definitely gone to this well too often. Let's get to the point where they finally do get over it! Please!

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  19. Thanks! I actually saw Sam's snarky comments as a stab at normalcy for him - the bitch/jerk banter. And let's face it, he's right to poke Dean about working with Crowley - Dean tends to look for friends in all the wrong places. I adored the Cas segments - it just felt like such a great payoff to everything he's been through. I really should have included more praise for Misha - he's still able to have that lovely naivte and also now a growing wisdom.
    I'm hoping that if we are patient, the writers will find a way to give us the same payoff for the brothers, gathering all the seemingly OCC threads and making them fit... What can I say? I'm an optimist at heart...

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  20. Definitely coming up in a later episode... I can wait too...

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  21. Great review. So detailed and balanced. What a contrast to some reviews at other sites that just phone it in with endless cynicism.


    The episode was a little sluggish, and seeing Dean and Sam at odds (especially this cold war) always brings an episode down, but I loved what Robert Berens did with Cas (he's one of the few who gets Cas - most writers on this show never have). He also made Bartholomew interesting and frightening, and ultimately, weak and maniacal. Adam Harrington did a great job too. I'm not sorry to see the charactre go, but I'm glad Harrington got a chance to show his abilities. I loved so much about Cas here, especially the idea that he doesn't want to fight, but he will. Boy, he will.


    I had mixed feelings about Linda killing the host - I think she was just enraged and Dean and Sam stopped caring about hosts long ago - but I understood it.


    I was most interested in some of the character details here, like Dean having a pink ipod, Dean wearing those shoes and those tight trousers - the opposite of his father, even as Linda and the ring (is Kevin's father's story over? I wonder) reminds of Dean's devotion to his father. And Dean with the scythe, Dean being tortured, sliced, by someone who is addicted to torture - is this foreshadowing for Dean's own future?


    I still don't think it was worth killing Kevin off, but I hope that this may leave the door open for him, and for Linda. Osric was great and so was Lauren. Lauren blew me away. That scene where she looked at Sam and realized Kevin was gone? Wow.


    I feel like Sam doesn't want to allow himself to forgive Dean, so he's pushing back, even though it's more and more difficult for him to keep up the facade.

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  22. Sam is free to leave and go his own way, no one is forcing him to stay, but if he is going to stay then GET OVER IT. He is acting like a spoiled 12 year old and that is not becoming for a 30 year old adult.

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  23. Whereas Dean's behaviour last season when he bitched and moaned and made snide little remarks for half the season was soooooo mature! Despite making an agreement with Sam that Sam adhered to, Dean didn't get over it. He was still bringing it up at the end of the season. When Sam chose a demon over Dean, despite asking Dean to come with them to go and kill Lilith, Dean didn't get over it. He was still bringing it up 4 seasons later!


    Though I guess for Dean, as for many of his fans, it's one rule and one standard of behaviour for Dean and a different one for everyone else. Unless, of course, that was 'mature' behaviour from Dean. If so, how pitiful!

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  24. Yes, I think he doesn't like the silence, as long as it's not the 'talk', but I say there are more respectful ways to communicate and in a not so family way. Actually I expected Dean to snap any minute and tell him to shove his snarks and act like a business partner.


    No, Dean is not bad in friend finding, the only case was Gordon and b/c he trusted him as a fellow hunter. Also Dean has shown before that he'd rather work w/ Crowley (of course not doing evil things) if it's worth the benefits. Besides he was just speaking job here, Sam seems to me to be in another jealous fits of his over that Dean left him and worked w/ a demon. From the moment Dean told him about the mark, just working w/ Crowley stood out for Sam and now we see it's not out of worry.

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  25. I don't think that Sam has a problem forgiving Dean. he knows why he did it. However, he needs assurances that Dean won't do it again and so far, Dean hasn't budged on that.

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  26. The fact that Sam didn't look for Dean is 'stone number one' of this whole bro-angst affair.
    It's what Carver's vision for the brothers' relationship is based on, but it's so unbelievable that it distorts all that happened afterwards.
    x
    If Sam had had a body to bury, I could have gone with him not bringing Dean back, but he didn't have one, and I think 'real' Sam would have at least asked himself where Dean had disappeared to.
    It's here that Sam is forced to be OOC.

    He would have tried to look for his brother, if only to know where his soul had ended up; he had all the means at his fingertips to do so.
    I know it's now canon but I'm never going to accept it.

    However when Sam does have Dean in his sights after that, he always chooses him.
    x
    As for Mrs Tran, the demon was told to protect her, not to kill her but she had no regret sin killing it. well the host body. Neither she nor Sam questioned if the human was still alive. Sam could have simply recited an exorcism,

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  27. It was made pretty clear that the prisoners weren't treated very well, were terrorized and likely tortured. Sometimes death is a blessing. I do agree that it's still disturbing that they just kill the host though.

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  28. When has working with Crowley ever really worked in their favor? I suspect you are right that Sam is a bit of have your cake and eat it too - I don't want to be close to Dean but I don't want anyone else to be either. But on the other hand, he's right to be cautious about working with Crowley. And Dean did snark back at him. I think as usual it's going to take Dean finally having enough and blowing up to resolve anything.

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  29. Thanks so much!
    Wow - you make some excellent observations here. The shoes really grabbed my attention - he's always had slip ons before. As for the pants, I think that in general, they are letting the brothers wear nicer clothes - likely at Jensen and Jared's request! The scythe in particular is something that I really noticed but didn't process - perfect foreshadowing for someone who may be destined as a servant of death. When Mrs Tran was talking about the ring, my first instinct was that maybe that was a nod to Dean having been a bit of a father-figure for Kevin - or at least responsible for him in that way and having failed him. I'd love to see Kevin's father play a role somewhere down the line. I have to admit that I simply hated Tom - up until this episode. Previously, I always felt that she played the character far too broadly. You can't do that in this kind of show - if you don't take the part seriously as an actor, the audience (or at least me) can't take you seriously. That said, this episode proved why she was cast in the first place. Once she found that emotional core of mother/son - wow - she knocked it out of the park. I'm sure we will see them both at least once more, but the only happy ending here has to be sending Kevin to heaven... that said, it is Supernatural!
    Completely agree with your observations on Cas and Bart...

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  30. And yes - completely agree that Sam doesn't want to allow himself to forgive Dean - but he's clearly weakening...

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  31. I always knew we never saw the last of kevin and his mom, but I was happy to finally see them again. The episode was amazing, but I had to admit when Kevin told Sam and Dean how stupid they were being, I cracked up. He was kinda right. I don't like when they fight. Its only natural and realistic to have brothers fighting, but Supernatural is at its best when its Sam and Dean against the world as one

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  32. which will mean the whole storyline has once again been a complete waste of time

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  33. I'll remind you of that when Dean is next pissed at something Sam has done and perhaps you could take your own advice and get over Sam not looking for Dean last season.

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  34. Yet had Dean made that same snarky remark it would have been ok and just funny or clever.

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  35. or maybe Sam is making those remarks because everytime he has worked with a demon or monster he has been treated like shit by Dean for the decision to do so? Maybe its because he's sick of Dean being so self righteous and hypocritical?

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  36. Of course he should because a violation of that magnitude is miniscule prepared to Dean being upset . But please Dean to feel free to not be ok with anything Sam does.

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  37. I suspect Sam wants to keep Dean at arms length because he doesnt trust Dean to do something stupid again just to save Sam but that doesnt mean he will just stop caring about Dean and it doesnt mean he wont or shouldnt call Dean out on trusting Crowley. Hopefully it all blows up in Deans face in the end. I dont think Sam is jealous of Dean and Crowley's new bromance I think he just thinks Dean's an idiot for trusting a demon who Dean himself has said that they cant trust, who has screwed them over time and again and because I think he knows it wont end well. Just look at what happened the last time it was just Dean and BFF Crowley? Dean got the Mark of Cain and we all know that aint going to turn out to be a good thing?

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  38. OK let's see, Sam has run away from family, chosen a Demon over his brother, did not look for him in Purgatory, has shot him and beaten him to a pulp while possessed, has come back soulless and not told Dean, but Sam gets his knickers in a twist when Dean tries to save him. I would think Dean has a lot more trust issues with Sam than the other way around.

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  39. I prefer to withhold judgment until it actually plays out. I strongly suspect that if fandom didn't rise to the bait and show SO much interest (albeit negative, it's still got people talking about the show) in this story line, they might move on and find a different one...

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  40. You are not alone - I snorted out loud too. I completely agree - bring on the snark and sniping but let's get back to a core of love and understanding underneath all that.

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  41. That time they went to catch that Brady demon or going after Death, to stop apocalypse. To kill the Leviathans and recently in freeing Sam from Gadreel. It worked those times. And Sam despite his disagreement, never threw lines like 'you're like BFF' or such back in S5.

    Dean is not trusting Crowley, he even read his hand in playing him, he knows how tricky he can be, but as in his fashion he takes the risk for now. In fact nothing has changed in their relationship, it's just Sam who is being sensitive and acting differently b/c Dean worked w/ Crowley w/o him. And we saw in promo that they catch him again, so no trusting here, I'm sure.



    If Sam keeps the attitude, I really hope to see Dean show his place.

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  42. "Get over it." Halle-frickin'-lujah.

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  43. and that is one thing I am hoping they don't do... brush it under the table in one episode. We have been clamoring for a "reunion" for years now... a true one, and if that is what they are giving us I would rather it be a slow build to a stronger relationship than a quick fix. They both need a swift kick in their nether-regions as neither is without faults.

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  44. The nice clothes make them seem a bit distant, though. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but bad guys always dress well on this show.

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  45. Metatron does tell them in season 8 about closing Hell: "Ask yourself: what is it going to take to do this, and what will the world be like after it's done?"

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  46. Yes Sam ran away from family because nobody told him he was supposed to live his life according to what they wanted , so he went to college .

    Sam coming back soulless and not telling Dean is one of the more ludicrous accusations against Sam as is beating Dean to a pulp while Lucifer was in control . Nobody as ever pretend Sam has not made mistakes and in turn hurt Dean but that does not excuse what Dean did in 'trying to save' Sam's life for his own want's not Sam's.

    In all of your Dean like list of Sam's wrongs not one includes deny Dean his autonomy and contains the lack of understanding at the seriousness of what was done to Sam .

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  47. I completely agree! As I said in a previous comment, they've done such a wonderful job pulling together all the wild and weird incarnations of Castiel to bring him to this wonderful place in this episode, I'd like to see them do that for the brothers. Let's really see them work it out for once! Relationships take work and it's an on-going task....

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  48. Oh, no question that they really went into the whole thing blind...

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  49. Sam has actually shot Dean - twice. In the end, Dean killed the vampire to save his brother. Dean beat Sam in season 6 because he didn't know what kind of a monster he was - and he had Cas heal him almost immediately. Dean thought didn't remember what exactly had happened with Cas in Purgatory until Cas came back. Dean didn't let Gadreel - who he thought was a different angel - violate Sam's body and mind so Dean could get what he wanted - he did it to save his brother's life. I'm sorry, but if your last words to me are you want to live, I'm going to do everything I can to try to help you live...

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  50. Isle, I don't know what Carver is trying to accomplish either. Whatever it is, it doesn't make for pleasant viewing, IMO.

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  51. I don't consider going to college running away, I was talking about the time he ran away on Dean's watch when his dad was hunting. And you don't thing choosing a Demon over Dean was not hurtful to Dean?

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  52. I am talking about the time Sam ran away on Dean's watch when John was hunting..he even had a dog, Bones. I don't think of college as "running away".

    Also Sam did not know he was soulless when he came back and he did not tell Dean.

    Sam did not know where Dean was in Time After Time but he got help finding him. He did not even try and find out what happened to Dean, just oh he has to be dead..that is NOT something that Sam would have done. You honestly saying that finding Linda Tran is the same as looking for your brother. Then let's hit Sam with not looking for Kevin.

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  53. This season, the writers are going out of their way to tell us that Dean has never, ever been anything but a major f-kup who has never done anything good or right, and that overall, he just sucks. Sam is the one being painted as the sympathetic one with the moral high ground. Dean was wrong for his actions this season, but the writers continue to show us how little they think of him so he will pay the price.
    You should be pleased.

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  54. Apparently a good fraction of fans here doesn't want it to be "swept under the rug". This endless Sam/Dean war on discussion board - that's what keeps boat afloat I guess.
    I would rather discuss interesting and new details Peter J4 pointed out : pink I-pod and torturing scene. Ugh..
    Its hard to be a bi-bro fan this days. You have to chose side and keep pointing one brothers wrongs until your fingers bleed.
    Carver is trying to burn it down to the ground, then build a new beautiful castle on the aches. The question is only if he capable of performing such a task. I afraid not. But fans scream "toxic relationship", " unhealthy codependence" !!!! Here we go. Now brothers are so independent they are barely talking. Very healthy.
    Lisa, good review. Thanks you.

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  55. You're holding something Sam did when he was a child against him! I wonder, have you ever wondered why Sam ran away?


    If he didn't know that he was soulless then why are you holding being soulless against him? Is it because he didn't know?


    In Time after Time they were on a case, they had leads, they knew they were dealing with some sort of time travel and they had some place to start. When Dean went to Purgatory, Sam had no leads, he had nowhere to start and Crowley said that he was completely alone, so Sam believed Dean was dead. In this situation, Dean was told Mrs. Tran was alive but he believed she was dead. The mindset behind bother incidents was the same. Both Sam and Dean believed something that later turned out to not be true.


    Apart from the fact that Kevin, as a prophet, should have had angelic protection, Sam imploded. He had a breakdown. It happens. Why not hit Sam with some random stranger who died in a werewolf attack, or a striga?

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  56. In both cases Sam was possessed, which should add weight to why Sam has such an issue with being possessed. In the end, Dean fully expected the vampire to hitch a ride back with Sam. it was only when Benny decided to stay in Purgatory that it became a sacrifice for Dean. Regardless of whether or not Sam was a 'monster' (he was still Sam. if Dean can blame Sam on coming back soulless then Dean obviously still considered him Sam), Dean beat Sam past the point of unconsciousness. When 'Sam' beat Dean, he was possessed by Lucifer and Dean, too was healed almost immediately by Castiel.


    Dean didn't know Ezekiel either, all he had to go on was the word of Castiel, whom a few hours earlier had trusted Metatron. What Dean wanted was to save his brother alive because Dean can't live with Sam dead. Sam is at peace with dying (that's not the same as wanting to die), Dean is not at peace with Sam dying so he will do all he can to prevent that, despite the cost to Sam and others so yes, it is so Dean could get what he wanted.


    And the last words that Dean heard Sam speak as his request to Death that his death be final, no deals, no reversals.

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  57. The writers are not 'going out of their way to tell us that Dean has never, ever been anything but a major f-up who has never done anything good or right, and that overall he just sucks'. If the writers thought the same they would have more characters calling Dean out on what he did. Instead, the secondary characters have been hugely sympathetic and understanding towards Dean. Castiel told him that his flaw was that he was too trusting (while telling Sam that he screws up constantly), Garth has no issue at all with the role Dean played in his death nor with the fact that he decided that his mother was dead (and being tortured) when she clearly wasn't. Nobody, bar Sam, has issue with what Sam did.


    Compare this to Sam last season, when he believed Dean was dead and so did not try to bring him back, as per their agreement. The guy he made the agreement with (Dean) held it against him for half a season (and evidently still does), and the guy who taught him that arrangement said that he shouldn't have done it. So who exactly is being painted as the sympathtic one with the high moral ground? Dean. Which shows how little they think of Sam, that he can do what is agreed and still be wrong, and Dean can violate whomever he wants and be written as being right.


    You should be pleased.

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  58. So basically you are saying that Sam being pissed at Dean is not only for Gadreel but for all the times Dean was pissed at him for all the times he's screwed up and did something practical to fix things? Like exorcise Sam, get his soul back, stand by his side after Ruby, turn up when possessed by Lucifer. That this is Sam's really big opportunity at payback for at all the times that Dean was angry at him because this the first time he can really get angry at Dean?


    Boy your Sam is really petty and nasty.

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  59. Nope. I'm saying that Sam is pissed off with Dean for Gadreel (actually, I don't think he's pissed off, more disappointed hurt and fearful that Dean will do it again, given that he said he would) and Dean's declaration that he would do it again.


    I'm also saying he's pissed off at Dean's extreme double standards. However, this being pissed off is not showing (perhaps it should be, it might be good for Dean to realise the hypocrisy of his words, actions and inability to consider his brother as an equal and trustworthy). The reason he hasn't shoved all of Dean's prior actions in his face (like Dean did twice last season) is because he's not petty and nasty. If only he would be, it might make Dean realise a thing or two.

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  60. Clearly Sam has an excuse for everything, while Dean is held to a much higher standard.

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  61. And the mention of Amy last season wasn't Sam trying to shove Dean's actions in his face with regard to Benny?


    Telling him to drop it or he'll walk wasn't telling Dean off.


    Both brothers are hypocrites in their own way. Sam can be in pain all he wants, but he is passing the expressing he is in pain to being a complete dick now. He promised Kevin he'd drop it and walked off without a word. He may have hesitated at that door but Kevin and Dean weren't there to see that so to them he broke the promise to a dead kid the second the dead kid he felt guilt about the second the dead kid was out of sight. He didn't say to Kevin he'll try or to Dean to give him time or he isn't ready. I get that he is angry and in pain but that was a dick move and isn't going to make things better and neither is making cracks at Dean and expecting his brother to simply react in his way before the rift.


    If things are going to get better Sam has to put in the work and tell Dean what he wants not hitting out with this is business and I wouldn't save you without explaining that he wants reassurances Dean wouldn't do it again and that he'd save Dean if it didn't violate Dean's wishes or what price he thinks is too high.

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  62. If Dean was held to a much higher standard then he'd be getting as much crap for doing what he did that Sam has in the past. He's not, so unfortunately he's not being held to a higher standard, he's being held to a much lower standard.


    Sam has a reason for doing everything he does. So does Dean. However, Sam's reasons are dismissed as irrelevant or traitorous while Dean's reasons are given the utmost in exploration and exposition.

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  63. The mention Amy last season could have been to remind Dean of his own ethos, that monsters are not to be trusted.

    Telling him to drop it or he’ll walk away was Sam said he had enough of being kicked to the kerb. If he was telling Dean off he’d be bring up all the hypocrisies of Deans past actions.

    Ah, so because Sam doesn’t do what Kevin (and Dean) wants, he’s being a dick? So I’m assuming that Dean last season when he wouldn’t listen to a word Sam said, walked off or cut Sam off on more than one occasion, he was being a complete dick? And in season 5 when he spent half the season again verbally, emotionally and often physically beating the crap out of Sam he was just being a complete dick? Or in season 4, again, he was being a complete dick? Nothing to do with being hurt or angry, he was just being a complete dick? I mean, if Sam is being a complete dick here then he had to learn it from somewhere, right so who else could he learn it from but Dean?

    Dean knows what Sam wants, to not be violated again, to not be made into a vessel for someone elses purpose again, to not have his life bring hurt to other people again. Dean said he’s not sorry he did it and he’d do it again. So Dean also has to put in a bit of work and maybe, for once, put himself in his brothers shoes and think about why Sam objects so much to being a vessel or disrupting the natural order. Dean is okay with dying, but he's not okay with Sam being the same? That might also make things better. Or is the responsibility of making things better solely on Sam and their relationship will be back to normal once he ‘gets over it’ and Dean can do whatever he wants with him?

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  64. Loved the episode, loved the acting and absolutely loving the tension! (I must be the only one) Siblings argue, fight, sulk, no matter what their age, if anything, they get worse with age! I can't wait to see how things unfold between the brothers and what it takes to get them back on track. Being the youngest, I can always relate to Sam and almost get what's going through his head. Dean, oh my, if this is the "burden" then I think he's going to get worse. He is absolutely devastated. No matter how tough and cocky he may be, I always see him as the boy who sacrificed everything he had in his childhood for his little brother *sniff* . Wish Sam would just hug him <3

    (On a shallow note, that stubble is just... *swoons*)

    Loved Castiel, Kevin and Mrs Tran. Bart was good too.

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  65. Is he ? all of alot of this fandom has done since Dean had Sam possessed , his justify his action . Then when Sam finds out the truth all of the fandom has indulged in is victim blaming and reducing his pain to triviality.



    Not once as anybody thought of Sam's past except to drag up his past wrongs as seen to Dean and ignore the past that would explain Sam's feelings of possession and manipulation and his body used to murder . And Dean turns round and does the exact same thing to him not for Sam's sake but his own and if Dean was being held to higher standard and I only wish he was then the attempts to get him off the hook by blaming Sam or making him out to be wrong for not talking to Dean would not be happening.

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  66. I think Sam will be waiting a long time for Dean to apologize to him for saving his life. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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  67. Well, if Sam cannot trust Dean, maybe they need to split up. They don't need to hunt together.

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  68. I have loved Sam for 7 season, the last 2 not so much and I don't think the writers are painting him as sympathetic, but like a crossed teenager. I don't think I am the only one that feels this way.

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  69. He cannot so my guess will be that Sam well be sacrificed again in all of this. That as wrong and disturbing was what Dean did in the end it is his relationship not Sam's , Dean's rights not Sam's that take precident.

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  70. Of course not if you are only thinking of Dean . But at the end of the day this is on Dean and why should Sam roll over and tell Dean all is forgiven just to suit him. Dean wanted Sam to live for Dean well now Dean can wait and so can those reducing Sam to a teenager.

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  71. I say you should be pleased because so many fans seem to hate Dean now. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it seems that this is what you really want to happen.
    I just disagree with you. Yes, to me, SPN IS painting Sam as the victim of horrible, horrible Dean. And yes, I agree that Dean should have let Sam die since that was his choice.Sam has every right to be angry about that. But the speech the writers had Sam give Dean indicated to me and many others, that Sam believes Dean to be the sole cause for everything bad that has ever happened to him, and everybody else and I'm sorry but that's just not true.Dean has made many mistakes, and he has done a lot of wrong to Sam(and yes,Sam has also done a lot of wrong to Dean) but he also took care of him since he was practically a baby himself, sacrificing any chance of a normal happy childhood or adolescence, and Sam would never have gotten through his childhood without Dean always being there to take care of him. And Dean HAS done a lot of good in the world too. The show seems to be telling us , throughSam, that Dean's whole life is just one big f--up and he's just a worthless, selfish prick.That is what I see. You are free to disagree.

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  72. I'm truly enjoying season 9 but I wish the brothers were part of the ongoing angel/demon mytharc. They seem separated off and involved with MOTWs. The Falling Angels was a big deal episode one - now never mentioned. Where's Crowley? Where's Abaddon? I hope the final few episodes are not rushed to close the story (hopefully it spills over to season 10). The Mark of Cain is the most exciting plot at the moment and no one is even talking about it. Still, Jensen is knocking it out of the park this season (as he does every season). Why don't they hand out Emmys for shows like this?

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  73. First off, the problem is that people blame one brother or the other. They are both flawed and in the wrong for different things. I'm not saying either is completely in the right or completely in the wrong. However, Dean has ALWAYS been held to a higher standard - from JOHN. Who conditioned him to save Sam at all costs from the time he was four. Who conditioned him that Sam was worth more than he was. Does that excuse Dean's behavior? Possibly not but it does help to explain it. As for "nobody" mentioning Sam's past except to blame him for it, I suggest you look at this thread. Many people are simply doing that to Dean - again, the problem with some people is they only see things from one perspective when there are many - and that goes for any situation not just this show. I don't think anyone watching the first episode didn't go 'oh my god, Dean! Do NOT let something possess poor Sam!' Everyone who watches the show knows that is a horrible thing to do to Sam in particular. It's also not like Dean didn't feel bad about it and want to tell Sam - though he was weak and didn't. As for Sam not talking, how does that help the situation? What happened is done, it can't be changed, but the future can be. Talking would help Sam to re-condition Dean. Of course, I don't want to see them yammering on and on about this either... I think the problem is that it's getting to the point where viewers are unwilling to forgive one brother or the other. If you don't see them talking and forgiving each other, what do you think the solution is?

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  74. Personally, I agree with everything you say here! (even the stubble!) Families are complicated and this one more than most. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they solve this problem.

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  75. I'm really enjoying the season too. I was a bit more disturbed that Dean turned on a dime from tracking Gadreel to going after Abaddon for Crowley. Now with Kevin, I think we will see them re-focus on finding Metatron and helping Cas. Of course, the Mark is to help Dean kill Abaddon, so clearly, they won't abandon that line of hunting either. This last hunt literally came to their door. I'm betting that the storyline will definitely spill into next season - so they have to keep dragging it out! Sadly, shows like this on a small network are never going to get recognized by the Emmys. Not when they are competing with cable dramas that only have to make 13 episodes and have a budget almost as big as a blockbuster film and aren't limited by language or content restrictions in the same way as network television...

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  76. The fallen Angels were a big part of this ep.

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  77. Dean had a valid reason last year for his behavior -- he was deeply hurt because Sam had dumped him. I couldn't tell you right now what exactly Sam is mad about. Dean's reasoning for his deision have been given plenty of weight this season, yet we don't know exactly what it is that Sam is mad about.

    Is it the possession? Well, being dead is the option and we know know that Sam would be in the veil if he were dead. Besides, what kind of a hero has a goal of dying to get out of the hero role?

    Is it because Kevin died? Both Dean and now Kevin have absolved Sam of all responsibility in Kevin's death, and there is not a fan on the planet that EVER thought Sam had any role in that. Besides, this is Sam, the one who dumped Kevin for a year into Crowley's hands...didn't look backwards even once. This is the Sam who didn't have this kind of reaction to John, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, or even Sarah, who Crowley killed just because she had run into the Winchesters once in her life.

    Is it the lying? Sam has no moral ground on the lying bit. There is not one fan on the planet that does not remember the lying and sneaking around with Ruby and actually choosing Ruby over Dean.
    And never, in all of Dean's prissiness, has Dean attacked Sam on the personhood level. In every single case of Sam's screw-ups, Dean has accepted Sam as a brother and loved him for who he is. In every case, Dean has sacrificed a part of himself to clean up Sam's messes or to, at the very least, stand with him.

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  78. Please, Dean. Dump the spoiler, petulant jerk and get on with your life.

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  79. Perhaps you could point me to the episode where the brothers made this made-up agreement...excluding, of course, the episode where this was thrown in because the plot required something to be said. Never mind, there wasn't one.

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  80. I don't know, Sharon. It's hard for me to figure out what Carver is trying to accomplish. Under Kripke, I think you would be right, but I think Carver wants Dean, not Sam, to learn the lesson. I think Carver is going for a "Dean needs to learn to let Sam go" theme. It may not happen this year, but if the show ends next year, I wouldn't be surprised if Sam died in the finale and Dean accepts it by letting Sam go and doing nothing. That way, we will know Dean has "learned the lesson."

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  81. This season has nicely ruined that part of the show for me.


    Last season's OOC nonsense didn't help either! Carver's run has ruined the brothers relationship for me.

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  82. I think this all depends on how they are going to resolve it,

    If they go w/ Dean accepting he's selfish and does more harm than saving (which is crap and canon violator) and apologizing to Sam for saving his life (And saving his soul from roaming on earth) and thanking Sam for showing him the healthy brotherly relationship, yes, your take is right. And w/ Carver I'm afraid it's the answer.

    If they go w/ Sam to regret his words and act like a brother again (which is absolutely immature in Carver's mind), no. Actually w/ how they went out of their way to reveal that unexpected fact about Dean in Bad Boys and now insisting to show how crushed he is w/ an ungrateful brother and all the burden, I hope they go this option.



    They could easily reach a middle ground before Sam going all family-hating frenzy and saying those words. Dean knew and accepted he was wrong, not in saving his brother but in taking any means. And ex-Sam knew how selfless Dean is, especially toward his family. There was no need to say those words and now we're seeing w/ this childish behavior nothing is accomplished.

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  83. No promising to do something to someone's face with no intention of doing it and walking off without saying a word - that makes you dick.


    Sam doesn't have to do what Kevin or Dean wants but saying he'll do something and then not doesn't help. It doesn't make it easy to know what Sam wants, but that is nothing new for Sam.


    Last season he went on about having normal - but Dean tells him in or out no hard feelings, he even has a place he can go, Amelia could have been waiting for him. What does he do? Makes Dean chilli. He tells Dean he wants to do the trials because he wants to show Dean that there is something better than the life they have, but in sacrifice turns out its about showing Dean he is worthy and won't let him down to the point he is willing to die then Dean says there is a better way and he decides he'll try that, fine but in the coma he decides to go. He goes on about Dean taking his choice away from him with Gadreel, fine though Dean had just witnessed Sam giving up one death wish so maybe he's not really seeing the coma Sam willing to die as a separate 'ready to go' but a continuation of the Sam in the church who told him he was giving up the trials to find another way to fight! Sam now goes on about being ready to die, fine. Is anything actually stopping Sam putting a gun in his mouth and ending it if he was so at peace and ready to go?


    He told Dean that it was business like, but he is now not happy that Dean is keeping it that way. Sure Sam can be pissed but can he at least be clear on what he wants people to do and his aims because hell if anyone can get a clear idea because he states one thing and then does the other and isn't happy when people try to do what he says he wants because he wasn't exactly pleased when Dean kept the talk on the case to business and curt when Sam joked.


    You say that Sam needs Dean to assuage him that he won't do it again. Won't do what again? Please tell me because Sam says one thing and then expects another. He needs to tell people what he really wants and stick to it.

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  84. Sam, Dean and Bobby confirmed the agreement. Why would they do that unless an agreement had been made. You don't have to see it to know that its true.

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  85. I'm waiting to see a fan who actually hates Dean. (And what a stupid, petty assumption to make, that I want people to hate Dean. You tore Sam to shreds last season, on a variety of forums. Did you want people to hate Sam, because you certainly spread enough of it?)


    And I do disagree. The show has gone to great lengths to show Dean sympathetically, choosing to focus the camera on his all forlorn in his room because Sam just can't forgive and forget. There has been little to no focus on the victim of his acts, only on him.


    Dean has done plenty of good in the world. Every secondary character tells him that (Charlie, Lisa). So has Sam, but the focus is usually put on when he messes up. However, in relation to Sam, which is what Sam said, Dean has messed up. However, Dean refuses to change his behaviour.


    How could Dean have had a normal, happy childhood when he was on the road, hunting? There's nothing to suggest that Sam wouldn't have gotten through his childhood without Dean. Were it not for Dean, John would have taken care of Sam until Sam was at an age where he could take care for himself.

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  86. Ginger is referring to the fact that this agreement was first mentioned . It was never mentioned before b/c they never had this agreement.


    Carver created the agreement and then forced Sam to follow it though no one supported him. The entire thing was silly.

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  87. Yes, Carver created it, he's the showrunner, it happened. He's entitled to change or put in as many things as he wants. iI's his show. 3 characters confirmed that there was an agreement. When it was agreed is irrelevant. An agreement was made, Sam followed through on it. They followed through on it because the lengths they would go to for each other was costing others their lives so it was necessary.

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  88. But the agreement, itself, is dumb and illogical. "Don't look for me."


    They seriously made that stupid agreement? In their lifestyle? Where they can disappear at any moment without actually being dead? Who in the world would agree to that? If someone disappears, you look for them before moving on w/your life.


    Even Jared agreed that Sam would have looked for Dean. It makes NO sense that he didn't, but I don't blame. That was all Carver and his whacked version of this show and the characters.

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  89. And expecting Sam to just say 'Sure Dean, you're completely forgiven. And feel free to do it again' two seconds after Kevin said it is unrealistic. Sam had walked away by the time Dean even opened his mouth.


    It always makes me laugh that Dean has to grant Sam permission to leave. It seems Dean doesn't want Sam going until he says so! Sam, at this stage, was already invested in closing the gates of hell. Dean had brought up closing the gates and how he wanted Sam to do it as well etc etc so Sam was invested in closing the gates of hell.


    I guess what's stopping Sam from putting a gun in his mouth is the knowledge that Dean will just bring him back again.


    Sam has no problem with Dean keeping it business like. However, people in business talk. Sam and Dean talked in this episode. They even had a bit of banter. However, as a professional relationship, Dean won't bring Sam back should he die again. With the brotherly relationship they had, Dean would.


    And Sam needs assurances that Dean won't go against the natural order should he die again. They're hunters. The chances of them dying young are high. Should they just continue to bring each other back when they die? What if they're retired and Sam dies of old age, will Dean bring him back then again? Dean knows what Sam wants, he just doesn't seem to care. What he wants takes precedent.

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  90. Why is the agreement dumb? Sam and Dean could literally end the world in their 'search'. They could sacrifice countless people in their 'search'. Should Sam or Dean torture and kill angels or demons (who are possessed people) in their search? And even if they were told something, how would they know the angel/demon was telling the truth?

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  91. If Sam really wanted to kill himself and didn't want Dean intervening, he could tell Dean he was going to live w/Amelia and that he wanted nothing to do w/Dean, then go off somewhere and kill himself. Dean would never know.


    I understand Sam doesn't want Dean bringing him back from the dead, but Sam was NOT dead yet. He was dying. That's why Dean was so desperate to fix the situation BEFORE Sam died.


    Miles vary and all but I never once thought Dean would bring Sam back from the dead through a CRD or anything like that.


    So what does Sam want? Does he want to be able to die no matter the situation or the time? The next time he's wounded, just let him die? I'm not being sarcastic by the way. I'm genuinely asking b/c that's the part that keeps tripping me up. Sam keeps saying he was ready and willing to die, but, to me, that has little to do w/anything. Regardless of his desire to die, I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted Dean to have him possessed, right? So, why does he mention his burning desire to die so much? I don't get it.

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  92. If something is not shown on-screen, then it is not canon, otherwise the entire show would be unbelievable. Canon are the rules everyone follows so the show and the characters stay consistent and believable. Just having Bobby say he made up that agreement, but did not expect either one of the brothers to follow it means there was no agreement. Taking that further into what is being shown this season, one could say there was no "consented" to agreement ever in place.

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  93. I have never voted in a poll to pick my favorite character of Sam or Dean because I loved both of them..they were my family. Last year I almost came to hate Sam and wished I could turn him over my lap and give him a good spanking. ;) Season 8 has never been watched again, it is just to painful to see this new Sam. This year is not much better and I don't understand why Jared and Jensen have let this character be trashed this badly.

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  94. Okay . . . well, let's just look at what they've done in the past when they've searched. When Dean was looking for Sam in S2, I don't recall anyone being hurt or harmed. When Sam was looking for Dean in S7, again, I don't recall anyone being hurt or harmed.


    We can agree to disagree b/c I've never seen either brother kill people when "searching" for the other who disappeared.


    You may have enjoyed last year's story, but I found it silly. To me, it is natural to look for a relative who disappeared, esp. when you deal w/the supernatural. And searching for what happened to someone does not entail - at least in my book - killing or hurting other people. If Sam had researched Dean's disappearance and come to the faulty conclusion that Dean had died, I would have been fine. That makes sense to me, but to have Sam not even look into it . . . . that's where Carver lost me. That's the part that was OOC to me (and Jared).


    But miles vary as they say. That's just how I felt.

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  95. Fair enough . Then Dean claiming he tried to find ways to get Sam out of the cage is not canon because we never saw Dean trying . I

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  96. Sam and Dean didn't have access to the same amount of information in season 2 as they do now so they would not physically be able to go to the same lengths then as now. They were also not as aware of consequences and natural order then as they are now.


    In terms of research, the question is, how far should Sam go to reserach? he could have made a deal, sold his soul, done a buttload of torturing etc, all to find out where Dean was. Should Sam have done this, just because he could. What are the limits for Sam in terms of how far he should go for research?

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  97. All that was needed to fix last season(for me) was 3 little words at some point. I DID LOOK. Sam did not need to rescue Dean, Dean could not rescue Sam from the cage, but he looked. That is all I needed for him to say he did look and season 8 would have been fine. I kept waiting for those words or it to be shown that Sam was possessed and was NOT Sam. Because last years Sam was just not Sam.

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  98. In terms of research, the question is, how far should Sam go to reserach? he could have made a deal, sold his soul, done a buttload of torturing etc, all to find out where Dean was. Should Sam have done this, just because he could. What are the limits for Sam in terms of how far he should go for research?


    And there is the actual story Carver SHOULD have told. If he wanted to show that Sam had reached a place where there were limits to what he would do to find Dean, then he could have told the exact story you're outlining above. But he didn't. He chose to have Sam give up, and basically abandon, Dean, TWO seconds after Crowley disappeared on him.


    As I've always said, I would have much preferred a story where Sam was faced w/a horrible way to find info on Dean or even rescue him but decided it was too much to risk, etc. That would have been a compelling story that would have kept Sam in character but also show some growth or maturity.

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  99. Yes it would have been unnatural for Sam to forgive Dean from the get go. But to promise Kevin he'll try and then walk that was dickish, he walked when he could have turned to Dean and said not yet and it is one of Sam's problems he says things people want to hear but wants and does something else.


    You can be in the right to be pissed but still come off a dick.


    And there is nothing stopping Sam putting a gun in his mouth after he puts himself in a pyres and lights it, he's smart enough to do it in a way that Dean has nothing to bring back if that is what Sam truly wants. Also Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead since he sold his soul. This time he stopped Sam from dying. It is a pedantic difference but it is a difference.


    And did you see Sam's face when Dean told him that he was talking out the case and not simply defending Crowley. He didn't go on about how could Dean be sure he looked narked that Dean said that he was talking out the case business like.


    Also you missed a huge thing, Dean got understanding from the one person who could understand - Mrs Tran. Carver has set this season up to show why Dean feels more like a parent to Sam than a brother given the responsibility to take care of his little brother. She told Dean that she would protect and look after Kevin as long as she could even after Dean explained it could turn ugly. She knows how Kevin died, she didn't deny it could turn bad and she is telling Dean that in the same boat she'd probably have done the same thing Dean did. She'd do what she had to protect her kid even if her kid didn't like it or it put others in danger.


    Sam wants Dean to change - Sam has to tell Dean to cut out the parenthood thing. He's thirty years old and he is a man, he needs to own his own ideas/actions and that means he cuts the apron strings and not his pseudo parent.


    But he also has to admit something else, Kevin said that his mother was his responsibility because he got her taken. Sam didn't look for Dean in purgatory, he's told Dean that he wouldn't go to the same lengths to save Dean. He doesn't want the same level of responsibility Kevin felt for his mother. There is nothing wrong with that - but admitting that and that is because it is all on him would be helpful to show us what Sam wants.

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  100. If Sam and Dean did separate on good terms, then do you think Sam and Dean wouldn't have contact at all ie Dean wouldn't know if Sam killed himself or not?? Or is it all or nothing ie Sam and Dean can only stay in contact if they're hunting together. That really puts the onus of responsibility of the maintenance on Sam then, doesn't it. Dean doesn't have to sacrifice at all.


    And Sam would be dead were it not for angelic intervention and messing with the natural order. The next time Sam or Dean is 'nearly dying' should they be okay with having an angel, demon, or God knows what else shoved in them?


    Dean has said that he would do the same thing again, ie make a deal again. So why wouldn't Dean go to a crossroads demon if it got him what he wanted?


    It depends on the wound. If it's a normal wound or something that can't be treated in a hospital then of course Sam would want to be treated because his death is preventable without supernatural intervention and no-one would be harmed because of his being healed. If I'm in an accident and I need a blood transplant then fine, give me the transplant. If I'm in an accident and I need new organs, and organs aren't available, don't kill other people to give me the organs.


    And Sam doesn't mention his burning desire to die, he was ready to die. There's a huge differnce there. He doesn't want to die but if he's dying he's not going to have deals made etc so that he doesn't have to die.

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  101. Agreed.


    I was just remarking to Nick below that I never needed Sam to FIND and/or RESCUE Dean. I just needed him to care that Dean disappeared w/o a trace. That's all.


    And let me be clear - I believe pre-Carver Sam would have cared and looked for his brother. I do not like what Carver has done to Sam.

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  102. So, you'd essentially like Sam to find out where Dean was and choose to leave him behind. Wow, if the hate loaded on Sam last season was bad it would be 100 times worse if Sam intentionally choose to leave Dean behind. Sam would be a quitter because he choose not to save him. He'd be a hater because he doesn't love his brother enough to sacrifice for him.


    Then if Sam did go to great lengths to look, he couldn't be trusted because he would inevitably end up tapping into the dark side to try and get Dean out. He'd be accused of not learning any lessons from the past and not doing what Dean wanted.


    Different situation, same end result.

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  103. I think it's more complicated for Sam. Dean agreeing with Kevin is 'easy peasy' relative to how Sam feels. For Dean the predominant negative to saving Sam via angel possession was that Kevin was killed. Dean admitted that 'it took a piece out of Sam' (metaphorically) at the end of 9.12 but said with emphasis 'same circumstances' at the end of 9.13 he'd do 'it' again and was crushed when Sam he wouldn't (save Dean by tricking him into being possessed).


    Sam loves Dean - we've seen ample evidence in the last three episodes (9.12-9.14) that his lil bro 'big bro's in danger' senses have been on high alert. But Sam doesn't want to be saved at any cost - he doesn't place his lfei above anyone else's

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  104. No, in my fake scenario above, the brothers would have parted in a bad way. You mentioned that Sam may not kill himself b/c Dean would just bring him back, but I was saying if Sam left in a way that seemed of his own free will but angry at Dean, he could kill himself before Dean would wise up to what happened.


    And I'm not saying Sam (or Dean) should be happy w/angels and/or demons shoved in them. I'm not arguing that Dean did the "right" thing.


    Miles vary, but I don't see Dean (at least pre-Carver Dean) making a CRD again given how wrong it went last time. I think he'd do anything else before that.


    See, they've been hinting that Sam is suicidal so that's why I was asking. Sam has not presented as suicidal to me, but I can't look past his recent comments about wanting to die or being ready to die. Maybe that's Carver's clumsy way of showing him to be suicidal? Who knows? That's why I'm now wondering if Sam would want any medical (natural or supernatural by way of angel touch) intervention at all?

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  105. No. I think the story would have been far more compelling and interesting if Sam learned Dean was in Purgatory but he would have to slaughter a town to get Dean out or something like that. I could see Sam (or Dean) backing down from doing that.


    I love Sam so I would have supported him. What I don't like about this current story is the writing. I think the two speeches Sam gave were OTT and poorly written. I also think Carver is flipping the show's message (stronger w/family) on its head, and I don't like it.


    In sum, I don't like anything Carver has done w/the show.

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  106. He will try. In his own time. Dean doesn't get to dictate everything. And Kevin didn't set a time frame by which to 'get over it'.


    Sam generally only comes across as a dick to those who expect him to always capitulate to what Dean wants.


    Well, he was smart enough to come up with a way to make sure that Dean could do nothing to bring him the last time, and Dean did it anyway. And, once again, Sam isn't suicidal. He's at peace with the idea of death. He's not out actively looking for a way to die.


    The ghost arrived almost straight away so there wasn't time to further the conversation. However, when they were in the storage area, there were plenty of smiles passed between them.


    Mrs Tran is like John in that instance then, if she has no problem with things getting ugly for her to keep her child safe. Didn't Dean hate John for what he did, because of the state it left him in?


    Sam does own his own ideas. However, Dean considers his ideas better. Possibly because he's older, possibly because he can't see past Sam's past mistakes etc. Dean sees himself as the head of their little army, what he says go. Sam wants the apron strings cut but Dean has said that this is who he is. Sam can try and cut them , and has tried cutting them, but Dean keeps tying them again and again.


    If Kevin had experienced what Sam and Dean had, would he want to put his mother through that? Ditto with Mrs. Tran. Would she be at peace knowing that her son was at peace? And don't forget, Kevin believed his mother was dead. it was only when he found out she was alive that he wanted to go after her.

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  107. It's the idea of being okay with slaughtering a town to find out where Dean was is the issue. Sam would do it to get what he wants, his brother back. However, what about all the people he slaughtered? Should they be okay with it, just because Sam wanted Dean back?

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  108. He will try but in his own time - then you admit he is sending out mixed messages while he does it.


    As for Sam coming off a dick to those who expect him to capitulate to what Dean wants - really? He can be pissed all he wants about Dean working with Gadreel but Sam's thrown up to much dirt for it to be simply that. He says Dean is responsible for not closing the gates - well where was Sam in that? Oh he was the one doing to the trials, the one with the power to stop or go forward. Sam has the power but either gives it away or states that someone else took it when it is not always the case.

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  109. Why would they part in a bad way? Just because they have different aims etc, should going in different directions have to mean they don't maintain a relationship after. If Sam and Dean parted company now, they'd still keep in contact with each other. if they didn't they'd have learned nothing from the past.


    I think Dean would make a crossroad deal. I think he'd be more keen to do that than anything else, because then he'd be dead. He'd have given his life for Sam, which seems to be his aim; to give Sam his 'normal' via his own death.


    Please point out where they said was suicidal. They haven't. Sam has just said that he was ready to die, that's not saying he wants to die? Are those who have DNR orders suicidal? Sam is aware that life is precious, so there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't want medical intervention (natural or supernatural by angelic touch or any touch that doesn't include bringing harm to another). However, Sam doesn't believe his life is more precious than anyone elses.

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  110. What mixed messages is Sam sending? He didn't say he'd do it then and there. If Dean assumed it then that's Dean's problem. Dean has never gotten over anything quickly and doesn't talk unless he wants to, so why would he expect Sam to do that?


    All the 'dirt' that Sam is throwing up is linked. They make huge sacrifices for family that they wouldn't make for other people, sacrifices they actively prevent other people from doing. Sam said 'talking me out of boarding up hell'. He didn't say Dean is responsibly. There was a 'me' there as well. However, Dean would not have talked anyone else out of doing it. He wouldn't have been talked out of doing it. Yet, he talked Sam out of doing it, because Dean didn't want Sam dying. Sam agreed because he didn't want to 'let Dean down again' and not doing what Dean wanted here would have let him down. Because of that more people will suffer. How can Sam and Dean be hunters, with the best interests of others at heart, if they are not able to sacrifice each other.

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  111. Apologise for saving his life, no. Apologise for the way that he did it, and the effect it has on Sam, hopefully. However, it's doubtful he'll do that either.

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  112. Dean said he had been trying, this is not just wishful thinking..it was in the show. I don't need to see it, just have a character say it.

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  113. Since he did not say he even thought about it, don't guess this matters.

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  114. And at no point could Sam have said no to Dean in that church? There may have been a me when he said about Dean talking him out of boarding up hell but the lions share of the responsibility was being thrown not in Sam's direction. Because at no point is Sam admitting he could have said no to his brother, said no to the head Dean that turned out to be Gadreel. Yes Dean goes above and beyond for Sam and Sam doesn't want to go as far but at somepoint Sam has to stop enabling and expecting Dean to go as far as he does and that means Sam Winchester has to own and express his voice.


    He has to say no when Dean goes so far even if it means his death, but he also has to make sure Dean knows where he stands and not give mixed messages that he'll do what Dean wants to stay alive, because that is what he is and if he didn't feel it he was meant to be there and was prepared to die because that was when he was supposed to go he is quite capable of solving that one, while not go that extra mile for Dean.


    How can Sam and Dean be brothers when the two of them aren't getting what they need out of the relationship? And to get that both need to know exactly where they stand and Sam knows where Dean does, Dean doesn't know where Sam does because the power now is in Sam's court, he needs to forgive or tell Dean exactly what he can do to get Sam to that point, because right now all Dean can do is let Sam die if they are in the same situation again.

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  115. Sam believed Dean was dead. He acted based on that. Dean believed Mrs. Tran was dead. He acted based on that.


    If Sam went on a slaughter fest to get what he wanted, could you please explain to me how that would be maturity or growth, seeing as this is what he did in season 4. And slaughtering a town wouldn't be a very heroic thing to do.
    Growth and maturity is about sacrifice; sacrificing what you want for the best interests of others. Making a deal would be easy. Dealing with the consequences would be easy. Doing things to ensure there would be no consequences to others, that's what is hard.

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  116. Of course you do not when Dean says anything. But my point still stands.

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  117. Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean he didn't think about it. Do you honestly think Sam just went 'Ah well' and shrugged his shoulders and walked off?

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  118. At any stage Sam could have said no. He could have said no to Dean and let Dean down again to close the gates of hell. However, given Sam’s psychological state, it’s not very feasible. Dean was the person he always looked up to, that’s been established. He is the one whose words he listened to, the one he tried to be like. This is why he didn’t bring him back, because as per the agreement, it was what Dean wanted (at the time). It was when Sam got Dean’s okay that he jumped into the Cage. Dean has made it very clear that any time Sam doesn’t do what Dean wants of him then he feels betrayed him or let down etc so, considering that, Sam saying no to Dean would be as realistic as Dean wanting Sam to die in the church.

    ‘You’ and ‘me’ were in that sentence, that’s equal responsibility. What Sam didn’t do is take the bulk of the blame.

    Sam doesn’t want Dean to go above and beyond for him. That’s the point. He doesn’t want him making deals, he doesn’t want him sacrificing. He has never asked Dean to sacrifice, he never wanted Dean to sacrifice but Dean keeps on doing it because he has decided that this is what Sam needs. Sam has expressed his voice but Dean isn’t listening because doing what he does ‘is who he is’.

    Sam has said no. He had ‘No to possession’ tattooed on his chest. Dean got rid of it. Dean knew that Sam wouldn’t want to be possessed, he did it anyway. He said ‘No’ to deals bringing him back, Dean heard it and did it anyway. What’s the point of Sam saying ‘No’ when Dean decides ‘Yes’ for him?

    Dean is the one who has all the power here. Dean knows what Sam wants. He knew it back in the hospital but he decided that doesn’t matter because what Dean wanted superseded what Sam wanted. Dean can make all the promises to Sam that he won’t do it again (they had an agreement to not do it before) but at the end of the day Dean can always change his mind when the need arises. So essentially, Dean has control over when and if Sam lives or dies. Sam could leave, but that won’t stop Dean from bringing him back to life if the need arose. Suppose Sam gets hit by a car, what’s to stop Dean from making a deal to bring him back? So realistically, if things don’t change
    between them, whereby Dean actually understands the impact of his actions and why he can't do it again, then Sam won’t have any ‘power’ until Dean dies.

    What does Dean want out of the relationship? Does he want Sam doing what he does? Does he want him making deals, sacrificing others, sticking angels and demons in him? Does he want Sam to just be okay with Dean doing that to him? We've less of an idea as to what Dean wants than we do Dean.

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  119. Oh as for Mrs Tran being like John and Dean hating John for what he did. Didn't Dean also come to the realisation that John tried his best, like Sam did.


    Guess you aren't a parent, you try your best to protect your kids. It doesn't always work out for the best but it is inbuilt you protect and the only ones who can change your view on what to protect them from is them by showing you that you don't need to protect them, not by having them passively aggressively acting out without a clue when it will end.


    Because like it or not we are also seeing an affect of this Sam has a right to be pissed, he has a right to take his time but he is also isolating his brother with things like promising Kevin but not saying a word to Dean so breaking it in a heart beat and a Dean with time on his hands and no-one to turn to is a dangerous Dean.

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  120. I think for me the sticking point is this - Sam may not hold his life in higher esteem, but Dean does. It's like the Wizard tells the tinman in the Wizard of Oz - it's not how much we love, but how much we are loved by others - that's a very different thing. I'm not bashing Sam either - it's just easy to see both sides. It's easy for Dean to agree with Kevin because Dean doesn't want to fight. I think the thing that does annoy me about the back and forthing is that Dean _should_ understand Sam's position because Dean felt exactly the same way in "Faith" and "No Rest for the Wicked." Perhaps we need that kind of revelation again to help Dean put it in perspective.

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  121. Thanks - and I agree. It's unfortunate but controversy puts 'bums in seats' - look at the ratings. I think my hope out of this episode is look how well they've done redeeming Cas - and his character arc had been pretty much destroyed, yet they made a kind of beautiful sense out of his journey. Let's see if they can do the same for the brothers. I fear that whatever they do, there is just so much angst in the fandom itself that it can't be enough...

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  122. Looks like she's in the March 19th episode...

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  123. And Sam also knows Dean's psychological state, that when push comes to shove Dean goes into Papa Wolf mode. In that Church there were a hell of a lot of you make me, you do etc. That pushes the emphasis of Sam's psychological state onto Dean and Sam knows how Dean responds to that - he goes above and beyond to fix it.


    Sam isn't a little boy, he is a grown man. He said Yes. Have him own that, have him fathom why he said that don't simply have him say Dean tricked him because there is more to it than that. Dean played along with Gadreel true, Dean didn't want him to die in that church, true but if it mattered so much to Sam, Sam could have said one word NO. That is all it would take for the roundabout to stop, to show Sam has drawn a line in the sand. All he had to do is say NO to the voice in his head that was his version of Dean. Sam wants not to be Dean's responsibility have him own his actions then and not have Dean cop to the lion's share when he could easily have stopped things by saying no.


    You said Sam may think Dean knows what he wants, I say he is putting out mixed messages - well is there any harm in Sam actually voicing what he wants so we get a clear message that Sam has told Dean exactly what he wants?

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  124. Realisation that John did his best still doesn’t mean that John did the right thing. John is almost universally hated because of how he raised Sam and Dean, how cruel he was, how he ruined their lives in his quest for revenge and family. Why is okay when Dean does something but not okay when John does it?

    I am a parent, and I would do what I could to protect my child. What I would not do is violate my child's body and mind because I could not do without her, especially if she had already been violated previous times. I would not make myself as bad, if not worse than her past abusers, because that would destroy her. I would not take another’s mother child away from them because I know that my child would not want it. I would not sacrifice others because my child died and I wouldn’t live with that. I would not take away her well-earned peace because I couldn’t live without her. I would not deem my happiness more important than hers. If my child was 30 and had
    been dying for a long time, then I would love them enough to let them go
    because my wants are not more important than her wants. That’s what love is, putting what your loved one wants and needs first.

    And what I certainly also would not expect, if I did any of the above things, would be for my child to only think about me afterwards.

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  125. Sorry to butt in, but I agree that the agreement did happen - likely when they were all drunk, but still said. For me, that absolved Sam from not looking. BUT Bobby told Sam that the agreement was never to be taken seriously, so relying on the agreement that had been debunked this season - ie Dean should not have tried to get Sam back - doesn't hold water. The agreement was shown to be nullified last season...

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  126. Since when does Papa Bear mode involve forcing your loved one into their worst nightmare? Papa Bear mode is about protection, what Dean chose to do did not protect Sam. What Dean chose to do involved taking him away from the one place where harm could not come to him; heaven. And since does Papa Bear mode involve gaslighting your loved one to make them believe they’re more inferior, more of a burden than they’ve ever been?

    Sam is a grown man, he has owned that. Like he said, ‘You’ and ‘me’. However, doing what Dean wants him to do matters more to Sam than what he wants, what needs to be done. Keeping Sam alive is more important to Dean than doing what needs to be done. That is the problem. How on earth can they be hunters if they won’t do what needs to be done to protect others? If Dean wants to go into Papa Bear mode, then why is he so keen on Sam hunting, and criticising him when he chooses not to, because hunting puts Sam in danger. Where is the Papa Bear mode then? I mean, would a bear lead his cub into a place where he knows there are bear traps?

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  127. Thanks for reading and replying. I get that Dean holds Sam's life as sacrosanct; that doesn't me I agree that it's right for Dean to do so no matter what. I agree - it's odd that Dean doesn't seem to understand Sam's reasoning, besides the episodes you mentioned there was also "Lazarus Rising" where he accused Sam of making a deal and said "I didn't want to be saved that way" (nor would go alone with Sam's 'idea' in TIOMS).



    Dean doesn't to be monster - or has life traded for another (very crudely that is what he did by allowing fakeZeke to possess Sam - Kevin was killed) .At least that was his POV in past seasons. So Dean has been outraged by the very idea of being saved by a deal Sam 'made' in the past - what has changed for Dean - to cause Dean to expect that Sam would do the same thing if their positions were reversed, including lying to him (Dean hates being lied to as much as Sam?

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  128. We never saw Sam do his LSAT's, or see the result sheet. Jessica only talked about the result. Does this mean that Sam didn't get 174 on them?

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  129. It doesn't excuse what he did, but I think it is consistent for Dean to leap before thinking through all the consequences. Would he have let Zeke possess Sam if he knew it would result in Kevin's death? Hard to say really. He didn't make the decision lightly - we saw in 9.01 that he was really torn over whether or not to do it. If he'd known that Cas was there and he wouldn't be alone, would Dean have still done it? Who knows. Life is full of what ifs and you can't always know the results of your actions. I also think that Dean had regrets all along - especially about lying to Sam. I think deep down Dean knew all along he'd done the wrong thing - at least he knew that Sam would not approve of it. I find it quite inconsistent though in the ways I've already stated... I don't think it's inconsistent for Dean to want Sam to love him enough to do something even while not actually wanting him to do it. Of course, for Sam, it's loving him enough NOT to do it that is more important.

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  130. You are projecting Sam's neediness onto Dean and failing to acknowledge that it has ALWAYS been Sam who has returned to Dean when they were apart and that it has ALWAYS been Sam's choice as to whether to do that or not. Dean has willingly let Sam go many times, but when Dean is not around, Sam has fell completely apart EVERY SINGLE TIME.
    Sam can have all the assurances he wants. The problem is that he wants what he wants when he wants it and not when he doesn't, and that is being shown now with the "business partners" crap. Who can keep track of Sam's wants? They change so quickly, especially if he needs something from Dean -- like adoration, devotion, or a mess to be cleaned up.

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  131. That's what I think, too... Sam needs assurance that Dean won't place his life above saving others again, and yeah, I doubt, too, that Dean will tell him "No I won't save you if others could get hurt or killed."

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  132. I'm not projecting anything. Sam has always returned to Dean (which really puts your whole Sam doesn't care about Dean theory in the crapper, doesn't it!). In relation to Dean's willingness, it comes across more that Dean is okay with Sam leaving, as long as Dean says he can leave. He can have his happy ending, as long as Dean gets to decide that ending. Sam fell apart when Dean was in hell. That's thoroughly understandable. When he believed Dean to be dead, he imploded, and then pulled himself back together to form some semblance of a life. Dean did the same thing. It's what anyone would do if their loved one died. They're not going to automatically pick up and be back to normal the next day.


    Keeping track of Sam's wants are fairly easy. it's the same want he's had since season 2, when he didn't want Dean sacrificing for him by making a deal, and told him so. He also doesn't want other people to suffer because of him.


    Sam does want assurances, but he wants them to mean something. Can he trust Dean to give these assurances? Not at the moment.


    And Ginger, Dean also wants what he wants when he wants it. The difference is that Dean takes steps to get what he wants that Sam would not take.


    You constantly talk about 'mess to be cleaned up' as if Sam is the only one who ever messes up. You might be trying to ignore it, but Dean has messed up plenty of times as well. He too, played a huge role in starting the Apocalypse. What did he do to clean that up? He made a mess with Gadreel, what has he done to clean that up? Dean has messed up plenty, but he talks about his guilt so much that people are blinded to it. However, guilt doesn't clean anything up.

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  133. Yes, that's exactly what they've made out of Sam, an unstable and self-righteous kid, if you save him he thinks it's not out of love, if you help him he thinks he is incompetent, if you act like an equal to him and expect the same devotion he thinks he's being controlled, and if you don't expect anything from him he thinks you're taking him as a child and can't rely on him.... Just what does he want?
    Being w/ him is like walking on eggshell, others shouldn't be accounted for his swing moods, and Dean always dances to please his needs, what else should he do? Letting him die? The show would end in that case!!

    There is a really big serious problem w/ characterization and plot setting here. That Luck Skywalker was reluctant only at the beginning, people didn't need to drag him to be the hero of the story every 5 minutes. If you want to end the show, then end it, let Sam go, die, anything he wants, otherwise let the character has some growth and don't set such plot lines.

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  134. Where on earth did Dean treat Sam like an equal in this situation??


    If Sam died, the show would not end. The show has never ended when Sam or Dean have died.

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  135. Sam did care that Dean disappeared. Like he said, he imploded. Why would he implode if he didn't care?


    And the question has been asked loads of time, but never been answered, how far should Sam have gone to find Dean?

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  136. Equality brings responsibility, the responsibility of a brother to 'look for' his missing brother. And aside from this situation, Dean always treated Sam like an equal, he said he was the person he trusted the most. It was the core of the show, two brothers who worked, trusted and relied on each other.

    Yes, and they were always got back somehow, but apparently that's something Sam doesn't want. So what's your suggestion? Zombi Land, Sam helping from heaven, or eliminating him from the show?!!!

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  137. And Dean is on an endless self pity party, just like Kevin said. But it's all self-pity, no feeling bad for Sam, who is the one Dean had violated. Doesn't exactly make Dean the most sympathetic character out there.

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  138. Sam also has a responsibility to abide by Dean's wishes, which is what he did. He also has a responsibility to other people, who would get hurt or worse if Sam did all he could to find Dean.


    Dean has never treated Sam like an equal, this is the problem. He says the words, but he doesn't follow them up with actions. Hell, last season he said Sam needed a chaperone for the heavy lifting, said that all Sam did was deceive him since he sat into his ride and that a vampire was more of a brother than Sam had ever been. This was after Sam fought by his side for years. Some trust.


    This season, he doesn't trust Sam with the truth, or trust Sam to know what's best for his own life.


    Who said Sam doesn't want them to be together? If he didn't want to be with Dean then why does he want to sort out the problems in their relationship?


    My suggestion is that at the end of the series, Dean abides by what Sam wants. He trusts Sam to know what is best for Sam, even if Sam decides to go and live his own life, away from hunting. He doesn't hit him with a guilt trip about how many people will die or how he's betraying family, or his obligation or how Sam should stay because Dean can't do without him, or crude remarks about his girlfriend etc. That he accepts that Sam is a hell of a lot more than just a 'baby brother'.


    That's not much to ask, is it?

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  139. Apologies for butting in but I don't think that Dean acknowledging that he respects Sam's feelings will be enough to let their disagreement go, because what caused the disagreement will still be there. Dean will still see it as almost his right, to do whatever he can to keep Sam alive, regardless of the consequences. Then the question will be what happens the next time Sam dies, will Dean do the same thing? What if an angel won't deal, will he go to a demon or make a deal etc? This time the consequence was one person, what if the next time it's more?


    I think Dean's inability to understand how Sam feels stems from the fact that he's never been possessed by an angel or a demon, and so can't relate to Sam at any level about this. Perhaps Dean is in for being possessed by the end of the season.

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  140. We see their relationship completely differently. All I saw was love and trust. That chaperon thing is an example, Dean meant well, he wants to help and be useful, but Sam and you took it another way.

    You missed the point there, I'm not talking about the desired ending, I'm talking about the never ending plot twist they set, Sam wants out, either by normal life or death. They can't eliminate him and they don't want to end the show, so what's Dean supposed to do? What are we supposed to want?

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  141. Yeah, Dean loves Sam so much he won't let him have peace, or give him choice. He loves him so much that he'll tell him that the one thing Sam categorically states he didn't want done, he'd do again. He trusts him so much he takes choice out of Sam's hand because he doesn't trust him to make the right decision (aka the decision Dean wants him to make). He lies to him constantly, but claims its in his best interest. He also says that he hates lying to him, but does it anyway. Strange definition of love and trust!


    If someone says 'You need a chaperone because you always need help with the heavy lifting' then how is that supposed to be taken? It's certainly not validating a persons ability. It also definitely doesn't show trust. And what's worse, if that, intentional or not, Dean continued doing it this season, when he was telling Sam that he had so save his ass again. And Sam didn't question it, possibly because Dean has said it many times before.


    Sam doesn't want to die. He's okay with dying. Dean is okay with dying. If they weren't okay with dying then they wouldn't be hunting, would they? That doesn't mean they're going to go on a hunt with the specific aim to die.


    The never ending plot twist is really not a twist. Sam initially hunted because he had no choice, then he hunted out of revenge, then he hunted to fix the Apocalypse. Since then, a series of circumstances have kept him in hunting ie soulless, Purgatory souls etc. However, if there was nothing huge on the horizon, if there was no Apocalypse or opening Purgatory or angels falling would Sam still be hunting? Possibly not. He doesn't take the same pleasure in it that Dean does. (Perhaps Dean could try normal if Sam wants normal, change it up a bit.) However, he is also aware that there are other hunters out there. What Dean could have done would be to abide by Sam's wishes. As was pointed out earlier, he'll be brought back some other way because they can't eliminate him and they don't want the show to end.


    I don't know what you want but I want Dean to respect Sam, his decisions and his motivations. I want him to understand Sam and why Sam does what he does and did what he did. I want him to acknowledge, to Sam, that he's more than just a baby brother (a role to be filled) to Dean, I want Dean to show some respect for Sam's wishes, and not just cast scorn on them. Sam has never held Dean's desire to hunt against him so Dean has no right to do that to Sam. Sam may not take the same pleasure in killing as Dean does but that doesn't mean he's any lesser a hunter for it. I want Dean to show some trust in Sam and I never, ever want Dean to decide to stick an angel or a demon etc. The worrying thing is that Dean has already said that he'll do it again so I doubt the last one will happen.

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  142. The promos before breaks are always for multiple episodes, just like we had a glipse at the Ghostfacers in the trailers and they're appearing next week

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  143. Sorry but I have no intention to indulge in fans banter, I said that we have different views. And my point is clear, there's no way to both satisfy Sam to get out AND keep him on the show, so if TPTB can't come up w/ another drama line, they better end the show and save all of us.
    If we can't agree on this simple fact that Carver screwed up, I see no reason to keep this discussion.

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  144. it all comes down to If I did not see it. it did not happen like in season 6 when Dean said he looked at book and Crap well I did not see him do anything like that. But Dean allway's gets a Pass PLEASE!

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  145. AND I WISH I COULD KICK DEAN'S ASS TOO HOW ABOUT THAT FOR WHAT HE PULLS!

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  146. Would he have let Zeke possess Sam if he knew it would result in Kevin's death?

    I don't believe he would have.

    The only reason Dean went w/the plan is b/c Castiel vouched for "Ezekiel." And I am not excusing Dean for his decision, but if Cas had told him that "Ezekiel" was a bad angel who would set out to destroy the world, Dean would not have moved forward w/the plan. I fully believe Dean was prepared to kill Soulless!Sam after SS tried to kill Bobby. He wasn't just going to let SS run around, killing people.

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  147. I think that's the whole point of this retread (IMO) of a story, so I'm guessing Dean will apologize for having Sam possessed. What else could be the point of the neverending brother conflict?

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  148. REALLY? Treated like equal that's funny really.

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  149. But Dean has put others' lives before Sam. He did it in S1. He did it in S5. We already saw that Dean can do that.

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  150. Because they are both angry and neither is willing to give. It happens.

    I disagree that Dean would make a CRD.

    Carver and Jared have both said Sam is suicidal.

    Anyway, we can just agree to disagree.

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  151. Sam believed Dean was dead.

    I know. I'm saying that belief was unsupported by the narrative thereby making the entire story a piece of OOC crap.

    JMO though. Miles vary.

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  152. Sam said he fixed the car and ran, hit a dog, met a girl, thought Dean was dead, OH WELL.

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  153. Sam wouldn't do that though. Neither would Dean.

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  154. I didn't like how shitty Sam treated Dean last season you jerk. I did NOT tear him to shreds, and I DON'T spread hate about him, more lies. And you have got to be kidding about seeing no Dean hate, it's ALL over the place.

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  155. I'm with you and just unsubscribed from it..can't keep beating my head against a wall. Carver has screwed up the show and characters that I have loved a long time.

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  156. I apologize for calling you a jerk, that was out of line. However, it is untrue that I spread hate about Sam, and it's also untrue that I tore him to shreds last season. I thought he treated Dean crappy and I complained about that. To me, that is not hating the character or ripping him to shreds, just being unhappy with his behavior.
    So now, were' not even gonna give Dean credit for having taken care of Sam his whole life? John was never there!

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  157. loved the review and an awesome episode as well!!!!
    btw, it would be super awesome if you guys could check out this link, just some thoughts i have on tv today. would love you all forever
    http://laurenmidler.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/hate-what-you-love-the-problem-with-tv/

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  158. I believe when Sam looked for Dean before season 4 he not only tried to make a deal, he tried to open the gates of hell where their father escaped. When Sam was in the cage, Dean tried to get him out... even though that would probably have released Lucifer as well.

    So, they have both done stupid things trying to save each other...

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  159. I hope you are joking in asking this question and aren't just being flippant. When a character has direct narrative, that is canon, and Jessica gave the precise LSAT score Sam received. That means it is canon. The purpose of having that line in the Pilot was to establish Sam's character as being super duper smart. Bobby said that he made up that agreement, but he didn't expect it to be followed. That's the canon -- not that the Winchesters signed on the dotted line or even agreed to it.

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  160. That was season 4 for me. I just wish they could have them get along after this.

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  161. Apologies are no good unless they're backed up by action. Without action the apology is useless. If someone is truly sorry for something then they takes strives to not do it again, and Dean has said that he'll do the same thing again if the need arises so, without action, any apology he gives will be meaningless.


    Perhaps the point of this never ending brother conflict is for Dean to learn to let go, to see Sam as more than a role, perhaps see him as an equal. Perhaps the idea is that Dean will walk in Sam's shoes so that he might, possibly, understand his brother a bit. Maybe, just maybe, this might lead Dean to actually forgive Sam for all the things he's still holding against him, and not just say that's forgiven him. It might lead Dean to trust Sam because everything Sam has done that Dean doesn't trust for, Dean himself has done. This might lead to them being actual brothers, and equals as opposed to what they've got going on at the moment which is more 'I decide what's best for you. If you don't like it then tough'.

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  162. So because they're angry and neither is willing to give their relationship is over and they'll never talk again? How childish is that!


    If Dean would do whatever it takes then a CRD is definitely on the table. He made a deal with an angel in season 9, and angels have be shown to be much worse than demons.


    Unless it's said on screen, then it's not canon. Nothing we've seen onscreen this season shows that Sam is suicidal, just that he's okay with dying.

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  163. That's not how it was written, it's just how you interpreted it, and nowhere . It doesn't say Sam left the building immediately not that he decided that Dean was dead seconds after he disappeared. However, do you think he should have looked under a few tables before leaving, would that have sufficed for you? Would you have been happy with that 'search'? Crowley said that Sam was not well and truly on his own, so the idea of Dean being found in the building is ridiculous.


    Sam said drove around for months, and when we saw him in season 9 he said he believed Dean was dead. If Sam believed Dean was dead seconds after he disappeared, why didn't he settle down straight away, why drive around for months? At some stage, probably after vast amounts of thinking and pondering, and running through scenarios in his mind, Sam came to believe that Dean was dead. When he believed that, then he could move on. Hell, Dean believed Mrs .Tran was dead despite being told by Crowley that she was alive so you'd think he could relate, seeing as he did the exact same thing. Dean didn't try to get Castiel out of Purgatory despite knowing that he was there. That's a similar, in denial, mindset from Dean so, once again, you'd think that he (and the fans) could relate.

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  164. How would you like Sam's belief to have been supported by the narrative? If Crowley told him Sam was dead would that have done, or if an angel 'confirmed' it? Sam has been lied to his entire life so there's no-one he can trust to tell him the truth. So even if it was 'supported by the narrative', Sam would still have to believe that Dean was dead and he could only come to that belief by accepting his death. The end result would have been the same, Sam erroneously believed Dean was dead.

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  165. Yes, he thought Dean was dead, and he acted based on that. Nowhere did it say that Sam dn't give a crap about Dean or he didn't think about various ways to bring him back from the dead. As we've seen this season, deals are the quickest and easiest way to get what you want. It would have been so easy for Sam to make a deal, and damn the consequences to others. He decided against it, because he was respecting Dean's wishes and because Sam does think about the consequences to others.

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  166. So Sam wound't slaughter a town to get what he wants, but he's expected to because it would be more in character for him. Now you're saying that Sam wouldn't do that. lala2, make up your mind! So Sam can't kill or torture to get what he wants, he can't make deals, he can't do anything that would lead to negative consequences for others so tell me, exactly what can Sam do???

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  167. Nope, not joking and not being flippant (you have a tendency to dismiss what others say by adopting an air of incredulity!). If it's canon that Sam has an LSAT score of 174 because another character said it, then it's canon that Sam, Dean and Bobby discussed and made an arrangement because they all confirmed the agreement. Bobby can change his mind after, Dean can change his mind after, but the fact remains that an agreement was made. Dean did say 'Yeah' when Sam brought it up which shows that he agreed to it. And considering their history of making deals etc, an agreement like this was necessary.


    No, it wasn't signed on the dotted line, but at least now Sam knows that a verbal agreement from Dean is worthless. Perhaps any future agreements he makes with Dean he'll written down in triplicate, signed and notorised because it seems this is necessary now.

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  168. Yes Papa Bear mode involves protection, Sam effectively told Dean he was willing to commit suicide to prove to Dean he wasn't going to let him down by closing the gates of hell. The gates of hell were a secondary motive there. The proving to Dean he wasn't going to let him down again was what primarily thing that came out in that Church.


    So who exactly is gaslighting who? Sam tells Dean one thing then when the going gets tough he tells him another to the point where Dean gets to the stupid level where he goes over board and is willing to do do anything to protect Sam, even from himself. And Sam is just as bad at telling Dean he is inferior as Dean is as Sam. That is part of the problem, Dean acts like Sam is the most important thing in the world to him, Sam only told Dean he was good enough twice last season - once to get Dean to let go of the trials and then when he was in that Church. He complained about Dean going to others because Sam wasn't good enough, but Sam went out of his way to isolate Dean from one of his friends. Made it out that it was for Dean's protection but in truth it was to do more with being jealous. Dean killing Amy was never about jealousy, same goes for his distrust over Ruby.


    You mentioned your daughter. If you had seen her in a state where you talked her off a ledge, where she decided not to end her own life and then she was going to die hours later without articulating anything to you about peace or anything and someone told you that they could save her you'd jump on it. I know I would for mine even if it meant they hated me for it. They'd just told me that they were willing to try and live and I'm not supposed to grab the chance to give them that. They can hate me, they can call me every name under the sun, they can curse me for generations to come but if I am giving them a chance to live after that is what they tell me they are willing to try then I will grab it.

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  169. It's also untrue that I want fans to hate Dean (like I said, I've yet to see Dean hate. All I've seen ) but you've no hesitation in posting that. I don't want Dean's actions or the consequences of his actions brushed under the carpet again.


    From what I saw, mainly on another board, you tore Sam to shreds last season. You never let an opportunity go by where you didn't call him some manner of selfish b@stard, you refused to consider explanations others gave about why Sam was doing what he was doing etc. In fact, you jumped all over fans who did try to explain him. That's more than just 'unhappy with his behaviour'.


    You presented a hypothetical situation whereby you stated that Sam would never have gotten through childhood were it not for Dean. I said that were it not for Dean, someone else would have taken care of him. Do you think John would have let Sam starve to death?

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  170. Sam told Dean he was willing to die to close the gates of Hell, to not let Dean down again. He was doing it for a purpose. Was it a form of suicide? Yes. However, if being willing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good is suicide, then every hunter on the show is suicidal. With Death, Sam wasn’t
    suicidal, he was accepting of death and of the natural order; a hard-learned lesson. If a person who attempts suicide is saved, and soon after they’re diagnosed with a terminal illness, and they sign a DNR order, is that suicidal?

    When, in the recent past, has Dean told Sam he values him as a hunter, values his skills and his contributions and has faith in his decisions etc? The only time I can remember Sam telling Dean he was ‘inferior’ was in season 4 and even then, he didn’t say Dean was a bad hunter, or needed a chaperone, just that Dean was holding him back.

    Sam didn’t trust Benny because he was given no reason to trust him. Dean deliberately kept him a secret from him. Even when Sam found out, Dean
    told him nothing. Dean wanted Sam to ditch Amelia, to ditch his dreams, to commit fully to the life, but he didn’t want to give up Benny. Why didn’t the
    same conditions he set apply to him?

    Dean killed Amy because he didn’t trust Sam’s judgment about her and he didn’t trust Ruby because he didn’t trust Sam. (Though Dean worked with Ruby, and trusted Crowley to get him what he wanted in season 5.) I think the biggest problem is that Dean just expects to be trusted, whereas he doesn’t give any trust. For all his words, did he trust Benny? If he did then why didn’t he tell Sam about him? Given Sam’s past, Dean had to have
    known that Sam would welcome Benny with open arms so why did he keep him a secret? Who was it that he didn’t trust, Sam or Benny?

    I didn’t get any jealousy from Sam, re Benny, or Castiel. I saw it as Sam realising that Dean would trust anyone over him. What does he have to be jealous about? On more than one occasion Sam has encouraged the friendship between Dean and Castiel, and encouraged Dean to forgive him etc.

    If I knew that heaven really existed and we’d be together there again, if I knew that the only reason that my daughter wanted to live was because of me, and if, on my trip into my daughters head, knew that she really wanted peace then I wouldn’t force life on her.

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  171. It cetainly doesn't and I don't get those who tell one to have patience and that Carver is sure to fix the bro-bond, because in the meantime we are left with an ever higher pile of douchy depressing episodes that only those who wish to inflict unhappiness and boredom on themselves, would wish to watch.
    x
    Up to the end of S7 I had no problem with watching the various eps, certainly there were those I loved, those I liked less and those I turned my nose up at, but there were none I didn't find some wonderful moments in. However since the AU of SPN in season 8, there are just a handful of eps that I would get any pleasure out of watching more than once.

    Season nine seemed to start off with a good episode, then the rest of the season dribbled down the drain just like s8 did.
    x
    Either the wroiters are just plain incompetent or more likely, Carver doen't care enough about Sam or Dean to portay them faithfully, and just lets his writers throw in what they want, how they want and when they want.

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  172. I agree. The controversy on the Sam/Dean rift probably makes observers happy as it keeps the discussion going, but though I have not been posting here all that long, I have noticed many brother fans who once posted, completely disappear, disillusioned by the show; and how can you blame them!
    Watching the brothers turn on each other as they have for nearly two seasons now, is unpleasant to watch.
    x
    I know the bros. argued before in earlier seasons, but the love they had for each other was palpable despite the words their mouths were uttering; now that is not so.
    It seems they have lost that indestructable bond they once had.

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  173. With respect Dean has not treated Sam like a equal and if we are going to use Sam not looking then that works the other way round to by not putting a unknown angel in your dying brothers body knowing you were not only doing it for yourself but going against everything that he would want.

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  174. Well doesnt want his body abused does he? you call Sam unstable and not look at Dean or do you think Sam lives in a vaccum like poor little Dean has to creep around Sam it is nonsense. This situation was on Dean it is no good people waving the flag around it was him not Dean , where should Dean be held accountable in all of this ? . Dean's behaviour is hardly that of a normal well adjusted human being is it , what do you think Sam is dealing with a horrorr story where he is not allowed to die or his body just usurped.

    Dont keep looking at Sam in this because it was Dean that committed the violation or that somehow Dean is the victim.

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  175. Using your non logic, it also did not say that he gave any thought at all to finding out what happened to Dean. In fact when Dean point blank asked Sam Did you look for me, Sam? Sam did not answer. So we are both putting into the show what we want to be there..live with it. I wanted Sam to say YES, I LOOKED.

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  176. No problem with that best thing he could do for Sam.

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  177. S4 for me too, and then the vamp thing and S8 and now S9. It's too much to come back from for me.

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  178. And Sam would have to blame the reflection in his mirror too. Who is blaming whom? The season appears to be showing Sam blaming being brothers (i.e., Dean) for every bad thing that has ever happened to the Winchesters, as well as giving no credit to either of them for the good they have done in fighting evil. That, of course, begs the question as to why any viewer is invested in the Winchester story if they are just a couple of screw-ups who cry over their lives because hunting is an awful thing to do.

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  179. He believed he was dead. Why look for him if he believed he was dead? I mean, that would be 'non-logic'.

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  180. Not any more, I guess. Dean made it pretty clear in the Church that "Sam" came before everyone. That's the core issue of their disagreement this season. I'm not being argumentative - there's been changes made in both brother's behaviors and reactions in the past few season's particularly that don't have a lot online fandom support.

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  181. Seriously! Are we even watching the same show?


    Dean killed Amy because she killed people. He didn't trust Ruby because she skulked around then manipulated Sam into hiding things. And look how long it took for Dean to kill Ruby, bodies hit the floor before he killed her and Sam said trust her and work with her and he did.


    You say that Sam didn't do what Kevin and Dean wanted him to do and that is fine even though the consequences aren't going to be good. Well by your own reasoning Dean didn't need to tell Sam about Benny, Sam going overboard is wrong and just Sam demanding Dean does what he wants. And why exactly did Sam trust Kate the werewolf more than Benny? He knew less about her than he did about Benny all he had was a tap in which she killed.


    As for Dean wanting Sam away from Amelia, Amelia was out of the picture before Dean got back, Sam told him that, she didn't come back into the picture until Dean sent the text. And they had a discussion in or out. Sam was given a straight choice with no hard feelings and what did he chose?


    Sam can take as long as he wants to be angry. Dean doesn't get over his hurt about being abandoned in purgatory because he's told to get over it or Sam will walk.


    I am beginning to worry about you because to you Sam is a domestic abuse victim who needs saving from evil Dean. Which by the way you can twist the argument the other way around because I can't see why exactly the Sam you paint should be trusted and cared for outside an abusive relationship.

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  182. If you listen to what Kevin said in the episode, it was Sam and Dean on a pity party, not just Dean.

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  183. The quote was "Didn't spend months struggling to break through the veil just to get stuck listening to Dean Winchester having a self-pity party'. This was after Dean's 'You didn't chose this life, you lost everything. on my watch... And there's nothing I can do to make that right', pretty much the same thing that Dean has been saying all season.

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  184. Nick you getting to the point where you aren't discussing you are diatribing. 'Sam is Dean's victim, Dean is abusive because he takes away all of Sam's choices.' Well Sam can leave. But if he stays I can call him out on his dick behavour and promising Kevin and then straight away turning his back on Dean that is dickish. It is Sam acting like a spoilt child. You may say it is my twisted perceptive because now you are saying Sam has too much strength of character to be abused but I'm getting that picture from your arguments, Sam's allowed hypocritical behaviour compared to Dean because Dean drives him to it. Sorry no. Neither are perfect, they can both be hypocrites and both should be called on it.


    Oh and Dean killing Amy, he had sympathy for her situation but he killed her because she killed and the difference in their responses are telling. You can actually say that Amy not only killed for her son but hid behind her son too. She told both when they caught up to her that she was stopping killing because her kid was getting well to get both Sam and Dean to leave her alone. Amy's kid tells Dean that he is going to kill him, Dean says fine look him up, not I only killed her because your mom was killing.


    Even though I understand her reasoning I'd have more respect for Amy if she took the consequences of her crime because her kid had people to go to. She didn't say fine to Sam drop her kid off and then take the consequences of her actions.


    The Sam distrust is Dean's secondary concern. He shouldn't have lied to Sam, sure he admits that and he tells Sam why he doesn't trust him. It is as good as Sam reasoning him going with Ruby because he felt more in control when with her than with Dean. They are both out of whack.


    But with Benny does Sam ask to get to know Benny? I know you are going to say Dean didn't offer but did Sam ask when there was no human bodies on the ground? If he had and Dean said no he's had a right to be suspicious. If not and he hasn't asked then it plays more that he's reacting to Dean's actions not Benny himself otherwise why is he suspicious of Benny because Kate killed on tape and he let her go.

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  185. Listen carefully. Closed caption did not pick it up, because Orsic didn't enunciate it clearly, but Kevin definitely says "Sam and Dean Winchester having a self-pity party."

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  186. I’m participating in a discussion, you are attributing words to me that were not said, and you’re throwing insults. Yet you’re accusing me of diatribe!

    And if you look at the scene again, Sam was already down the stairs and was about to round the corner before Dean before Dean even opened his mouth. So it's not as if he waited for Dean to talk and then walked away.

    Sam certainly can leave, it won’t make a difference. Dean will still think that he has the right to make the ultimate decision re Sam’s life and death, and if and when the need arises, take measures to do what he did again.

    Like Amy, Benny also killed. He killed to protect family. Would he have killed if his family didn’t need it? Maybe not. However, would Amy?

    How could Sam ask to get to know Benny when he didn’t know that he existed? After he found out, Dean wouldn’t talk to him ‘You haven’t said a word to me since Prentiss Island. And now, what? You want me to shut up and ride shotgun as if nothing happened.’ Dean's reply was 'He's also the reason I'm topside and not roasting on a pit in Purgatory. Anything else?'
    So, on the journey back and in the interim period, Sam had to have asked, and asked a lot, otherwise Dean wouldn’t have been so short with him in his answer.

    Perhaps Sam was suspicious of Benny because if he was as trustworthy as Dean said, then there wouldn’t have been a need to keep him secret.

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  187. So closed caption didn't pick it up, the supernaturalwiki.com transcript didn't pick it up and you can't hear it (and it's very hard not to enunciate Sam clearly, it's one syllable), but hey if you want to believe it's there then no-one can stop you.

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  188. Dean will still see it as almost his right, to do whatever he can to keep Sam alive, regardless of the consequences. Then the question will be what happens the next time Sam dies, will Dean do the same thing?

    Yes, that is the question - will Dean ever let Sam die?

    No apology needed – I was just thinking of a way to possibly
    end their impasse without either being stamped with the “I was wrong about everything, you were absolutely right” because if this happens likely only a minority representative ‘online fan faction viewpoint’ will be happy (I’m including only the most extreme fans). I agree that the storyline setup this season
    is that Dean would save dying Sam no matter what. (Of course, no Sam, no show).



    After learning that ‘grief counselor’ Kim was not (YET) an ‘angel’ – Dean told her he had the King of Hell in his trunk and went out to the parking garage prepared to make a deal with Crowley. So if not saved by angel, Sam would have been saved by a deal. ‘At the end of the day’ Dean felt Sam’s best chance of living rested in the hands of an angel whom he uneasily trusted to heal Sam and leave quietly in return for a favor that was never asked for - because Gadreel ran into Metatron and the rules changed.

    I agree that part of the problem is that Dean has never been
    possessed, never having experienced some invading entity control your body and overriding your ‘will’ so cannot know
    what it feels like. (I’m not counting the times Dean has been influenced by a MOTW – Siren, the cursed coin - because those were both relatively ‘easy fixes’ solved by destroying the source of the influence).

    I thought I knew the ‘punch line scenarios’ with respect to
    their disagreement – now I’m not sure. Possible S9 finale scenarios that I envisioned (maybe even S10 in case S10 is the final season, or the final season for either “J”): 1) Sam is imperiled/dying or ‘dead’ again and Dean has to decide whether or not to go against Sam’s wishes; 2) Sam (BIG) saves Dean somehow (including ‘spiritually’), maybe from
    possession by Abaddon as the most likely demon possession, or from ‘going completely darkside’ because Dean’s increasingly influenced by the MOC. These scenarios
    only involve the boys’ choices not the other heavy mytharcy stuff that’s going on in the finale or the two eps leading up to the S9 finale.

    I’d rather not have writers have Sam face the ‘same circumstances’ as in the premiere although lots of fans would be pleased, because this, too, would equate to a “Dean was right, I was wrong, again” that would negate Sam’s hard fought position to get Dean at least acknowledge that he listened to Sam’s objection – and this conversation gone full circle. *g*



    (Again, obviously, if either Sam or Dean dies for good,
    through S10 at least, the show ends.)

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  189. Would he have let Zeke possess Sam if he knew it would result in Kevin's death?
    I may get lots of disagreement for saying this, but yeah, I think Dean would let Zeke possess Sam if he knew that his decision would result in Kevin's death; that's pretty much what he implied in 9.13 and in 8.23 - that Dean puts saving Sam's life ahead of everyone and everything .


    Sam is not saying he wants to die - he's saying he wanted Dean to respect his decision to die in the premiere. Sam wanted Dean to be an adult and accept his death. In their tweens, teens and even into their early and mid-twenties (the series premiere) Dean could play the older brother/'surrogate parent' role more realistically but now that they are both into their thirties it's less rational - by this time of their lives both of their differing POV's should be respected even if that means one of them dies because they have made their wishes known, even if indirectly, not to have any supernatural intervention.


    That was Sam's wishes that Dean disregarded and Dean has made his wishes clear, too. Will Sam reverse the stance he stated in 913 is one of the possible situations the show may play with later in this season or into the next.



    I already said every decision Dean made was 'in character' for him to make, including 'looking before leaping'/ 'going with his gut' when he has no one to bounce ideas off. I have no issues with Dean's storyline to date - IMO, it's been very well done as we've seen much of his decision processes and moments of uncertainty along the way.



    My problem with Sam's storyline is that some of the online fandom is again not allowing him to have a difference of opinion over a major issue with Dean. I think the writers are giving Sam at least 'more voice' over this different POV then in their past serious disagreements even though I might not love every word that comes out of Sam's mouth and question a few 'directing choices'.

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  190. Haha! Great post, Isle!

    Like you, there are very few episodes I'm interested in re-watching lately. I didn't even get S8 and only re-watched 2-3 episodes of S7. I'm hating this season, so I know I won't be getting this one either.

    And I guess this most recent brother conflict wouldn't bother me so much if I didn't think Carver was flipping the show's message on its head. Who can get behind a show where the message is "family is the root of all evil/problems?" Nice.

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  191. Maybe that's what Carver's Dean would do, but pre-Carver Dean (i.e., real!Dean) would not willingly or knowingly kill innocent people to save Sam. He just wouldn't do that, and there has been NO evidence in the past to support that idea.

    I will never believe that so if that's the story Carver is going for, it will always be OOC crap to me. Much of what Carver has done is OOC crap in my eyes so it really doesn't matter. Haha!

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  192. I've not liked the stories since the end of S5. But here is my problem with this season in particular:
    What is the overall ‘purpose’ of these stories? Actually, what is the real story?

    How difficult is it to outline a primary story with a quest that will develop the
    main characters and change the existing status quo.

    How difficult is it to develop a secondary story that develops the secondary
    characters and leaves a direction open for the next season?

    How difficult is it to choose a number of stand-alone stories, each of which is designed to add some knowledge to the overall plot, provide some character development that reinforces the primary character’s quest, and throw in some new interaction, experience or weaponry to deal with things further down the line?

    Any good storyteller should be able to do that and Carver is a good writer, but the viewers should not still be talking about what happened in Ep. 1; which brother was right or wrong and the reasons why. We’re over halfway through the season now.

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  193. Yup. We're at the half mark of he season, and nothing has really happened. There's been no forward movement on any story except the Gadreel/Sam one. That's pathetic when there are at least 3-4 other stories in the air.

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  194. I don't recall ever calling Sam a dick. Or a selfish bastard.
    No, given what we know about John, I feel he would have left Sam with a bunch of people.
    I have NEVER said Sam was a dick, or a bastard, you are a liar.

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  195. Guess what Sunshine, your favorite DOES MAKE MISTAKES! Sam is NOT perfect! And saying that does NOT mean someone hates Sam.
    I NEVER stated that Sam was a dick or a bastard, or that I disliked him in anyway. But I guess to total ESG or boys, like you, anything other than total Sam ass-kissing means you are somehow tearing him to shreds.

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  196. If you want evidence of what you've written, I'd advise you to look back on your posting history on supernatural.tv when at the start of last season, those would have been some of the more pleasant phrases you called him.


    And childish name calling, roxi. Really?

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  197. I wrote two replies and neither went through.

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  198. I've had a few errors like that this afternoon too. I signed out and then back in to Disqus, and it's been ok since *touch wood*

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  199. I usually pre-write longer 'forum replies' in MS Word and should have this time. But Word doesn't paste nicely into Spoiler TV and I end up doing a lot of reformatting. My system as well as this site havw been so stable for the last few months that I just writing and editing as needed on the reply itself. Argg!

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  200. I HATE when that happens! Sorry :-(

    Yeah . . . I'm not sure what Carver is trying to accomplish w/the brothers!

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