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Supernatural – Episode 9.10 – The Gripe Review

19 Jan 2014

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Hello Supernatural fans and welcome to the first Gripe Review of 2014.

I was pleased with the overwhelming response to the last review. So many fans saying they had thought the same things and discussing their own issues with the show. It encourages me to continue writing these reviews if only for the insightful discussions they spark.

But enough about last review. Let’s talk about Season 9’s second half and my take on its first episode “Road Trip.”

I loved this episode.

It came at a time when the show resembled a worn rug with loose ends and out of character threads hanging from it everywhere, and it actually managed to pull some of those threads together. As far as damage control this episode did a lot of heavy lifting and gave us a lot of hope.


Allow me to list some of the things this episode did right, things I would like to see continued in this fashion throughout the rest of the season. Even though this is a gripe review this constitutes as praise. I’m not here to nitpick on an episode or a writer. I won’t hesitate to give credit where credit is due. So here are the positives I saw in the episode:

  • Pretty much every character present in the mythology had a role in the plot. From Gadreel, to Crowley, to Abaddon, to Metatron to Crowley’s henchwoman who had no qualms telling him she worked for both sides. Everyone was in the right place being utilized for the right function. No one was ignored or wasted.

  • Dean’s reactions to Kevin’s death was shown. It wasn’t swept under the carpet in favor of his anxiety over Sam or his eagerness to save his brother or take revenge. His actions also felt natural and organic, not like a wound up doll who was programmed to act in a certain way. He interacted with other characters in realistic, in-character ways and did more than just wring his hands worrying about his brother.

  • Castiel was himself again, no longer bumbling around looking for a sitcom to star in. Gone was the slapstick clown bewildered by appliances and human bodily functions and in his place was an ally focused on the ongoing story. Castiel’s role was very important in driving the plot of this episode and I very much welcomed his return to the serious side of the show.


  • Sam actually took charge at some point. He was not just a victim, or a noble concept everyone talked about. He got to stand up for himself, and even though it was only for a few short scenes, we got to hear and see what went on in his head. More importantly it felt real, and therefore sympathetic, not a confused stroll through dreamscapes where random things with questionable meanings happened. And his words at the end of the episode actually made sense, unlike the riddled speech he gave at the end of season 8.

  • Crowley was also back to his original game: the scheming salesman, not the mustache twirling villain they turned him into in season 8. I like Gray Crowley much better than Dark Crowley and I hope they keep him this way.

  • Dean’s apology to Castiel was genuine and necessary. I thought we would never get to see it and they would continue with Dean acting dismissive and blind toward Castiel. But it happened in this episode and along with it came valuable dialogue that reinstated the connection between them and brought back the history they shared together onto the surface.


  • Sam’s last line to Dean was a gem. I have been waiting for an indication that this story was more than yet another Hurt-Sam storyline with the added piling of guilt on Dean. That it would go somewhere and changed some of the causes of the tragedies in the Winchester lives. Changing the toxic nature of the brothers’ codependency was my path of choice and I’m pleased to see that Sam’s conversation with Dean, especially his last line, seemed to hint at that.

    For those who don’t know what I’m talking about let me refresh your memory. In the last segment of the episode Dean begins to rant about how all of this is his fault, how he is like poison that infects everyone around him and caused their deaths, and how it’s best if he distanced himself from them for a while. When he starts walking away Sam tells him, “Go, but don’t go thinking that’s the problem cause it’s not.” With this line Sam shows how cognizant he is about the root of their problem: not Dean himself but Dean’s entrapment in his restrictive version of brotherly love and his insistence to orbit around Sam to the point of becoming deaf and blind to everything else. It’s a huge step forward for the show to have at least one Winchester have that realization. We could only hope he’ll be able to help Dean see it too and they could achieve a level of balance in their relationship that would not have one of them burn the world – and himself with it – just to protect the other.

This episode was written by Andrew Dabb whom as off last Wednesday was removed from my list of Supernatural writers who should be fired. I liked how unassuming he treated this story, how humble. He didn't add personal details from his own life and boast about it on his twitter account (he doesn't even have a twitter account.) His dialogue was clean and bereft of cheesy lines such as “no me if no you.” He kept everyone in character and didn't deny any of them a spot to shine. His humor was tasteful and his angst the right amount. He proved that steering the story into the right direction, even at this stage with all the problems, isn't impossible. All it takes is a dose of good writing and a reduction of ego on the writer’s part.


Yet, since this is a Gripe Review, I can’t leave it without listing some gripes. Let me say that most of these are not Dabb’s fault, but a result of the circumstances he was writing the episode in, and the place the earlier half of the season had left him. In most cases he was helpless to avoid the gripe because the issue was created by others who came before him, and Carver who designed the season’s overall arc. I am fully aware and respectful of that even though I have an obligation to point out the bits that were still loose and dangling from the structure.


Gripe #1: Why did Gadreel insist on staying in Sam?

At the start of the episode I was under the impression that Gadreel’s previous vessel was lost, until they showed Tahmoh Penikett working at the bar. We knew Gadreel could re-possess him due to his initialy given consent. There was no reason for him staying in Sam, especially when the seat became hot under Crowley’s torture. Unless there was some motive behind his occupation of Sam that would be revealed later on the show - beyond simply needing a body - that felt like a strange and gaping plot hole.


Gripe #2: Haven’t we seen all this before?

This is where what I said about Andrew Dabb not being guilty of an issue comes to play. He was handed yet another half written “Save Sammy” storyline and couldn't possibly write something else. What’s unfortunate is that, as emotional and heart quenching this story was, it was also a patchwork of all the tropes and scenes we had already seen before on the show. Sam being possessed by an entity and assuming that entity’s voice and behavior while boasting about it reminded me of the end of season 5. Sam tied to a chair being “handled” by someone to fix something in him was reminisce of season 2’s Meg possession, or season six’s soulless Sam souloscopy by Castiel. Sam screaming while Dean and Cas listened in the background, and Dean suffered through it, was a textbook copy of season 4’s My Bloody Valentine. And Sam being encouraged to fight whatever evil was possessing him was right out of Swan Song.


Gripe #3: The great discrepancy between season 6 and season 9.

This was addressed in a slightly different manner by Laura Prudom in her review of the episode:
One of my favorite aspects of Castiel’s character is his grace — not the physical force that gives angels their power, but the capacity for forgiveness, mercy and patience that many associate with divinity. Dean has often rushed to judgment and castigation whenever the angel has made a mistake or chosen not to confide his problems, but when their roles were finally reversed, Castiel didn’t admonish or chide his friend, instead simply telling Dean that he was sorry and trying to reassure him that he was “stupid for the right reasons,” a response he was no doubt hoping to hear from Dean way back in “The Man Who Would Be King,” when his own questionable alliance with Crowley came to light.
However my issue with this disparity isn't the difference between the characters’ reaction to two parallel situations, which is understandable due to their different characteristics and personality traits. Mine is an issue with the show itself.


Back in season 6 the way the show (not just Dean, but the collective attitude of the story) handled Castiel's misstep strongly implied a verdict that the end didn't justify the means. I came to understand that no matter how dire, justifiable, or “right” Cas’ reasons for doing the things he did were he would not be excused because the end result was world’s destruction through the Leviathans. So my understanding of SPN’s moral compass was that if you do something that ends in disaster you don’t get to justify it by bringing forth all the “good” reasons you did it.

Fast forward to season 9 where roles are reversed and it is Dean now who stands in the metaphorical ring of fire. The insertion of the line “stupid for the right reasons” made me do a double take. The show essentially went back on its own decree and said that it is in fact ok to make stupid mistakes if you’re doing them for a good cause. That made me question why no one said that to Castiel in season 6 and why he was dragged through the mud for another season and half when he was basically trying to stop Raphael from reinstalling the apocalypse and destroying the world. Why did the show, and every character on the show, write off his reasoning as excuses and snubbed even his future attempts at making amends? And if that all was in fact the right course of action because a road paved in good intentions is still wrong if it leads to hell, then why didn't the writers serve the same dish to Dean this season and changed the company line to “Ok if for the right reasons?"


Gripe #4: Suicidal Sam.

I loved Sam’s mature reaction at the end of the episode. I loved that he didn't throw a tantrum and walk away like he used to do. That shows character growth on his part even though we never got to see the journey he went through to get there from the inside. I also already mentioned how much I loved his last line.

However something about Sam’s dialogue still jarred the authenticity of that conversation and slightly ruined its effect, and that was Sam declaring twice he wanted to die. I already talked about this in my last review, about how this is an unacceptable motive for a beloved character and how when they complain about not achieving it the audience doesn't go along with them. If Sam’s complaint was that he wanted to leave, go to university, start a normal life, or anything that didn't end up with him in the ground I could get behind him and accept his frustration with Dean. But when his claim to injustice is that he wanted to die and Dean stopped it, I’m with Dean, because as he said, it’s not in Dean to let that happen.

This has nothing to do with the lopsided codependency that needs to be righted, because it’s Dean losing his brother for good. I don’t have a codependent relationship of their level with my sister but if she one day wanted to die and I had the means to prevent it you bet I would. No amount of respecting her agency and her right to choose for herself would change that. So sadly in this case I couldn't really see both sides of the argument and that partly ruined the emotional effect of that excellent last scene for me.

Hope you enjoyed this mixed bag of a review. It’s both exciting and difficult to write a Gripe Review for an episode that looks actually promising. I hope the challenge for me continues into future episodes so that eventually we’d arrive at a point where I have nothing but praise to give for the show.

Don’t forget to sound off your own opinions/gripes in the comment section.

Tessa

tessa-marlene.tumblr.com/
twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

132 comments:

  1. The codependency is never going to be fixed. It's what the show is about and it DOES NOT NEED to be fixed. Stop hating on it, You have a problem with it why are you watching? You know it's not changing. You know a Destiel shipper wrote this one.

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  2. Thank you, Tessa for the great review. I loved the positive things of the episode and I hope that they address Gripe 1 later on.

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  3. Even if you don't like a certain aspect of a show, doesn't mean you can't enjoy it overall. I agree that codependency is unhealthy, that it will never be fixed and on some level, it doesn't need to be fixed. But if Tessa or another reviewer didn't bring it up in their reviews, they would be missing a large part of the story. We are just reading their interpretation and feelings. I don't get how you got that she is a Destiel shipper from some comments about Sam and Dean -- but regardless, does it matter?

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  4. I agree with a lot of this. One of my big issues with Castiel is that once they decided to keep him, they didn't seem to know what to do with him, so they went with "fish out of water" comedy which then grew into Cas is not intelligent enough to figure out the world in 5 seasons while every other angel gets it immediately. Making Cas competent and capable will go a long way in making me appreciate the character. Actually having him interact with Sam will go a lot farther.

    I agree with a lot of this. One of my big issues with Castiel is that
    once they decided to keep him, they didn't seem to know what to do with
    him, so they went with "fish out of water" comedy which then grew into
    Cas is not intelligent enough to figure out the world in 5 seasons while
    every other angel gets it immediately. Making Cas competent and
    capable will go a long way in making me appreciate the character.
    Actually having him interact with Sam will go a lot farther.

    Re the repetitive parts of the episode this review http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18295-nate-winchester-s-remix-of-supernatural-9-10-road-trip at Winchester Family Business does a great job of noting the repetition in an amusing way.


    The one thing I do disagree with is you saying Sam said twice he WANTED to die. He didn't. He said he was WILLING to die and READY to die. I think it's an important difference. Wanting to die makes Sam suicidal and I agree that isn't something I want to see. However being willing and ready to die says, to me, that Sam accepted what was happening (and he WAS dying, his body was failing) and didn't want to be saved by supernatural means. He especially didn't want to be saved so that he didn't have control of his own body and so that his body could kill, not only Kevin, but 2 other vessels and 2 or possibly 1 angel on Metatron's orders. I have seen the argument that Abner's vessel's throat was slashed which was how Metatron released Cas's grace and how Cas released Theo's grace so Gadreel may have gone all literal and killed the vessel, as instructed by Metatron, while not killing Abner and releasing him and his grace instead so I'm willing to believe that perhaps Gadreel did not kill his best friend.


    In any case, I took Sam's statements to mean, not that he wanted to die, but that he was prepared for death and didn't want to live by any and all means. He didn't want a deal, or Doc Benton's magic elixir, or a vampire to turn him so he didn't die or to be possessed without consent by an angel. He wanted to live. If he hadn't wanted to live he wouldn't have said yes to "Dean" when Gadreel pretended to be Dean and used Dean's image to gain consent. He just didn't want to live the way Dean tricked him into. In an earlier thread I used the example of a Jehovah's Witness given a blood transfusion while unconscious. They want to live but don't want to violate their beliefs to do so. That doesn't make them suicidal, just committed to doing what they believe is right.



    Anyway, I'm glad the Gripe Review is back. I do enjoy it.

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  5. Thanks for the comment. I hope so too.

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  6. The codependency is never going to be fixed.You sound like you have inside information about the show. Even if that were true it doesn't change the fact that the codependency, the way it is now, is hurting the show. It's has turned into an endless, and tired, cycle of Sam dismissing it, then getting into some kind of trouble and Dean going out of his way to save him, then Dean going further out of his way to fix Sam. Still, if after all this, the writers went the extra step to show Sam having a revelation and changing his mind about how blessed he is with their bond I wouldn't have had that much problem. But they never do that (they didn't even let him comment on it when Jody brought it up in episode 8) because this way they could keep bringing us back to square one for yet another version of the same cycle.

    I don't know why you say I'm a Destiel shipper for being against this. I like Dean's and Castiel's relationship and I like Dean and Sam's relationship in different ways. I have criticized that relationship too in my last review. I have nothing against any relationships on the show per se. My gripe is when those relationships are mishandled and their charm gets damaged To me the brotherly bond is at that stage now. I can't continue caring about it if it keeps going nowhere and no character learns anything through their experience with it. For a good story to work you need all the pieces to work together to reach a proper conclusion. If you drop that conclusion in favor of repeating your trope ad nauseam you are doing it wrong.

    I guess what I ship the most on the show is good storytelling.

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  7. I agree with you about Sam not really being suicidal but rather rational and I should have put it that way in the review. It's absolutely his right too to choose where he wants to end up, body and soul. What I meant was that aside from the rational elements (Sam deserving the control of his body, not wanting his survival to risk other people's lives) there's an emotional angle here too that overpowers things, both for the viewers and for Dean.


    For all intents and purposes it had been better if Sam had died: the gates of hell would have closed and Kevin would have lived. However we don't want Sam to die. Aside from the fact that that would end the show, we know him as a beloved character who had been with us since the beginning of the show and is an essential part of it. In that sense we are as selfish as Dean. But are we (or is he) really to blame? That's why I brought up the example with my sister. Even if it's not suicide, even if she wanted to run into a burning building to save another life, I would try to stop her. It might be the lowest, most misguided thing in the world to do but I wouldn't care. Because we are all that way when it comes to the ones we love. That's why I could see Dean's side more in this argument than Sam's.

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  8. I agree with you. I don't know if even 100 years of psychiatric counseling could help their codependency but death is not the way to deal. ". Sam tied to a chair being “handled” by someone to fix something in him was reminisce of season 1’s Meg possession, or season six’s soulless Sam souloscopy by Castiel. " I liked what you said but Meg's possession was season 2. I just watched it on TNT Thursday. All in all I think it was a very good episode.

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  9. So beloved that abuse is acceptable . When it is not your body and when you do not have issues of control and you have not already been used by Lucifer then yes it is a decision one can make and justify it.

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  10. Thanks for the heads up about Meg's possession. Been a while since I watched that episode. I fixed it in the article.

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  11. Thanks for the review. I hope they will start to move away from the codependency for both of them and victim Sammy too. It was nice to see him being capable of doing something and not falling down ill, sick, possessed etc. It has been a long time coming. Though I still feel they will fall into the codependency if they don't address Dean's issues of blindly protecting Sam and to hell with everything else while Sam allows himself to become blindly involved in quests, redemption, revenge, Dean's wishes, etc etc. Basically I would like Dean to be able to let go of his control issues and Sam to let go of what inside himself lets him...well how did Crowley describe it a giant baby?

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  12. So beloved that abuse is acceptable.


    No, that's why I am against the current state of their codependency, precisely because it has entered abusive territories, and not just to other people but Sam himself. I am fully in agreement with you that what Dean did was wrong and Sam was completely justified to be hurt by him, as was Castiel, and Kevin if the poor guy had lived.


    However what I meant was if the alternative to what Dean did is Sam dying I can see Dean's side. It's the same argument people made for his decision to make the crossroads deal in season 2. I don't know the answer to what he was supposed to do, then or now. He loved his brother and wanted him to live and for Sam to so nonchalantly declare he was ready to die without considering how much that would hurt Dean is a little cold. Again I'm not saying Sam is wrong to want to decide his own fate, I'm saying it's way more emotionally complicated than when he for example wanted to go to Stanford.

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  13. That's my wish too. That would mean character development for both of them, something I have been waiting for since season 2. I know some people like things the way they are but to me, after 9 years, it feels too much like stale waters that are beginning to stink. Something needs to change to make the story feel fresh and keep the audience on their toes. I once even suggested a role reversal: Dean getting into trouble and Sam trying to save him, just for a chance to see how they would react in a new and previously unexplored situation.

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  14. I agree with most of what you say. I interpret Sam's final line differently because he expects the world to revolve around him. Dean is tilting at windmills; he needs to look within for the source of the real problem, from Sam's point of view.
    Overall, I found this a solid episode. I thoroughly enjoyed Crowley. I hope we get more like it.

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  15. Now you're hating on Sam. Usually people who claim to dislike the codependency actually dislike Sam but never want to admit it. I commend you for being honest about it. It's not Sam's fault the writers ignore him and only use him for plot points. The problem is not the codependency the problem is that they ignore Sam's feelings and perspective. And frankly if you don't care about it anymore, good luck enjoying this show because that's what it's about.

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  16. One of my biggest gripes other than what you pointed out was also brought up in Laura's review: "and Cecily’s Castiel obsession seemed out of place, making the otherwise capable character look a little too schoolgirlish. The manufactured humor of that situation felt forced instead of organic (whatever happened to demons and angels finding each other repulsive, anyway?), and it took me out of the narrative momentarily. " I thought the character was interesting, but having what appeared to be an intelligent demon act like a school girl with a crush with dialogue that sounds like it's coming out of a fanfiction or a young fan's review than the actual show. I know this show has done meta before, but not this badly. I almost expected her to turn to the camera and wink after she said that.

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  17. Great review, and about your previous review, I couldn't comment on that, but let me tell you it was plain magnificent, thanks.


    Yes, this ep was great, I really enjoyed it.


    1. This question came to my mind too, I expect his new/first vessel fall apart after some time, 'cause it was the reason he needed help in the first place, right? But still there was no need to insist on remaining in Sam's body, unless the writers need it to progress the plot, let them need Crowley to eject it and hence freedom for Crowley.


    2. Oh please, exactly that's the source of many critics, they've put Sam in every dilemma imaginable in the show they can't write a plot about Sam w/o repeating one of them. I just hope they stop this overwritten plot of 'lets save Sam' or 'sth is wrong w/ Sam' so they prevent further repetition.


    3. Yes. I think they were too unkind to Castiel about his mistakes. Sam's situations was like his too, and while other people, strangers blame Sam, his family and friends forgave him. And now w/ Dean, while his actions was never as destructive, world wise, as Cas' or Sam's, still he's very lucky to have such a kind and forgiving friend.


    4. Exactly, I wholeheartedly agree w/ you. Really, I see people in real life, around me, some normal people you wouldn't think much of them but they're so strong and firm when facing difficulties you'd learn from them and try to be a strong person like them. Who'd want to watch a show w/ its supposed hero to fall apart and 'want' to die because he had hit a wall? Apart from the fact that it's friends and family members' duty to stop their loved ones from taking a suicidal path, it's ridiculous to make a show w/ a suicidal weak willed hero, I wouldn't want to watch such a show.
    And I believe Sam in his deepest core didn't want to die, he was tired that time, that's why when Dean offered him to say yes he accepted, he was lost and needed to be guided to light. Don't forget he exclaimed he was happiest w/ his life in ep2. So when he says, twice, he wanted to die here, yes I have problem w/ that.

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  18. Character development would be great especially as it would fit both the actors as they are now. Jensen can spin the whole Dean guilt still but it has to be frustrating to continually play that when you know he is capable of more. As for Jared must really hate that somehow he has gotten stuck on this merry go round of essentially being the show's damsel in distress in the later years and even when he went physically through that hulking he-man phase. But his character had more of a real decisive hold on himself when he was a lanky kid who would have needed assistance with a chin up.


    Though as you said some like the show as is. But for me if they don't address both brothers at some point the dichotomy of Sam's physical size and the need to wrap him in cotton wool in fear for him is going to turn from being a gag the likes of Crowley can run off to being the only place the show could emotionally go.

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  19. I've looked on the site bit where does one go to make a complaint?

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  20. Tessa, are you saying that Sam is not wrong for wanting to decide his own fate, but it's unfair to Dean? And Sam was anything but nonchalant or cold when he said that he was ready to die. He was honest, and he was hurt. I feel that you're dangerously close to blaming the victim here. Dean screwed up. Badly. I understand why he did it, but there's no excuse and it was wrong. And I don't think that he realises it yet, and that's partly what Sam meant in his last comment. Kevin didn't die because Dean is "poison". He died because of choices Dean made in an effort to keep Sam alive at all costs.


    And I just want to reiterate that Sam was NOT suicidal. What was the argument in his head then if not him fighting for life? He was dying, (his organs were failing or something) and didn't want to be brought back by supernatural means. I don't blame him after the disasters of Dean's deal and Cas bringing him back soulless.

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  21. Try Help->Send Feedback

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  22. Sigh. Sam didn't want to die. He WAS dying, like Dean in the season 2 opener, and Bobby in season 7. Was Dean "weak-willed" when he was getting ready to follow Tessa the reaper?

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  23. When your organs are all but gone and you were in a clinical coma with machines keeping you alive perhaps someone can tell me what exactly did people expect Sam to do?. Sam could of had the will of a elephant but it still would not of changed anything so how in all of that was Sam 'weak willed' ?

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  24. We all know what we're talking about, the same thing actors mentioned too, that Sam's suicidal tendencies aren't finished yet. And that is so unfair to the character and TPTB need to stop it.

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  25. Thank you for the positive comment. I try to be fair in these reviews and address issues I see as general not personal. i.e. not my own gripes but things that have to do with the story that others also might see. Readers letting me know they agree reaffirms that I've achieved that in some part.

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  26. Thank you! Frankly Sam originally wanted out of hunting. Dean and Kevin telling him they could close the Gates of Hell pulled him back in. Frankly when Dean wanted to do the trials to the extent of wanting to find a different Hell Hound and try to kill another one no one got on his case for being suicidal, even though Sam specifically said Dean was and Dean pretty much agreed. Sam went in believing he had a better shot at surviving because he wanted to live and Dean didn't care if he did. Frankly Sam is goal oriented and once he started he intended to finish. Plus Dean never considered abandoning the trials, just taking them over himself, so he would die instead of Sam. And again, no one's jumping on Dean for that bit of suicidal ideation. Dean didn't want to drop the trials until Naomi, the world's most unreliable source who had never shown one minute of care about Sam and who actively wanted Dean dead, told Dean Sam would die if he finished them.

    As for the actors saying Sam's suicidal tendencies remain, we don't know what that means. The synopsis for this week says Sam still has some of Gadreel's grace in him and that removing it may do permanent damage. If Sam agrees to the procedure is that being suicidal? Or is it being task oriented and willing to do what it takes to stop Gadreel and Metatron? Because going after vampires and werewolves and demons and Wendigos and Rugarus all may cause permanent damage, but the boys don't get dinged when they put their lives on the line in those cases.

    Sam gets jumped on and called irresponsible if he wants to live a safe life and not have to worry about being torn apart by monsters. He gets dinged if he's willing to do put his life on the line to stop a monster. Dean wants to quit, it's understandable because he's tired. Dean is willing to risk death to stop a monster it's admirable because he is brave. Whatever Sam chooses gets labeled as wrong.

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  27. Tessa, are you saying that Sam is not wrong for wanting to decide his own fate, but it's unfair to Dean?

    Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Rationally Sam is in the right. Dean should let him do with his life as he wants. I even stressed that when I talked about the codependency. I want it changed because - among other things - it's interfering with Sam's right to choose for himself.

    However what I had a gripe with was the fact that the whole thing involved Sam dying. As I said, if it were just Sam wanting to quit hunting, quit saving the world, heck even living with Amelia *shudder*, I would've had no problem and would be 100% on Sam's side. However "Let me die if I choose to," is a little too much to expect from a close family member. As much as I would like to I can't get behind Sam on that one.

    Kevin didn't die because Dean is "poison". He died because of choices Dean made in an effort to keep Sam alive at all costs.



    Exactly. And I agree that what Dean did was wrong and that his obsession with running Sam's life needs to stop. I'm not blaming Dean or Sam here. I'm blaming this circular story the writers keep feeding into the show that ends up forcing them to have weird dialogues such as this. They constantly drag Sam close to death so that the only choice the poor guy has is to die, then blame Dean for stopping him from dying. It's a very complicated situation and the fact that it keeps repeating without anyone learning anything from it, or any resolution coming out of it, is frustrating.

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  28. I understand, though I always prefer the bad-ass fierce fighter Dean, I think they should have balanced their relationship and showed how protective they are of each other, but they ruined the one time there was a chance for Sam to be the hero and save his brother (purgatory), such a waste. I think Sam really deserves to be the hero for once and Dean to be the one being loved and supported.

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  29. Yes we all read that but that can mean a number of things. It might actually mean something or one episode. As for being unfair in what way? has not the possession sl been unfair to him how does having 'sucidal tendencies' be anymore 'unfair ' .

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  30. But you are . Again you are making what Dean wants the primary need not what Sam might want or need . Emotions are complicated but they are not a free pass to do whatever you like to someone , Sam is being cold because he was willing to die and is not thinking of Dean yet the same could be said of Dean when he made the deal to bring Sam back.


    It cannot be both ways Sam cannot have the right to decide his fate but only if he thinks of Dean .

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  31. Now you're hating on Sam.

    I reiterate, I hate no relationships or characters on the show. I hate how they are written at times. This time the codependency isn't the fault of Sam's characterization, it's Dean's. He's the one keeping everyone's choices hostage and driving the plot toward a single minded destination that is becoming tiring and sick. It's the writers' fault. They had made everything, everyone's motives, every conflict, every sacrifice, about Sam's need to be pampered. Sam saving the world, Sam being hurt and Sam having to stay alive. For that they have to make Dean do questionable stuff, and Sam having something constantly wrong with him.

    It's not Sam's fault the writers ignore him and only use him for plot points.

    You're exactly saying what I'm saying. No it's not his fault. He's as much a victim here as everyone else. I talked about that in my "Season 9 so far" review. The writers never show Sam's mindset, never give us a look into his emotions and feelings. He never gets the chance to affect anything, or emote on whatever is happening around him, because he's always either comatose, possessed, severely ill, or otherwise indisposed.


    This is why the codependency hurts the show. The writers do this to Sam precisely to keep the codependency in the shape that it is. Their definition of the brotherly love has boiled down to Dean babysitting Sam like he's still a 6 month old infant. They even made intimations to spoon feeding. But how do you keep that up with a 30+ y/o strong and capable guy? You incapacitate him over and over so your plot about an older brother throwing everything in the fire to save his younger one makes sense. Such a plot is problematic to begin with, but when it keeps getting rehashed for 9 years on a show it becomes irritating.

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  32. I really hope this suicidal tendencies are as simple as Sam willing to risk his health about that remaining grace. I meant to prove that it's not a baseless fan spread speculation, apparently it's there and cast are speaking about it.


    Let's see this situation from above, we all know these characters are fictional and their fates are at the showrunner's and writers' hands, so no need to jump to defend them; I don't see anyone here blaming Sam for wanting a normal life, @Tessa said in her review if he wanted a way out, a normal life, she'd agree, me too. It's his life and his choice, I believe he should fight for his happiness, not take death as a prize after a long life fighting and doing good (as it was implied in his inner debate with Bobby's image). That time I see him being weary and tired, but now his insistence to being ready die is not acceptable from the show's star, this is my problem, the TPTB need to give Sam more credit, more will strength.
    Honestly it's really strange for me that some fans, especially Sam fans, has no problem w/ this aspect of the writers' butchering his character; The characters are just human, right, but sometimes the plots make Sam weaker than a normal insignificant person while he's one the heroes of a supernatural show.

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  33. It wasn't "Let me die if I choose to", it was "I'm dying and I don't want to be brought back by supernatural means". It's totally fair, even if it's not in Dean to accept it.


    And it's interesting about you not blaming Sam or Dean, and blaming the writing. Did you feel the same in Season 4 when Sam was with Ruby? It wasn't anybody's fault, just the writing? Sam was wrong in season 4 and Dean is wrong now. As I said before, let's not blame the one who was betrayed.


    And let me just say that it's not just about Sam being ready to die or not. To me, the consent issues are impossible to ignore, and Dean lying for months is all on him too, especially considering how much he hates to be lied to.

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  34. Maloose, I assume your answer is not to me, because that's not what I was talking about at all.

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  35. Sam willing to sacrifice himself like Dean wanted to to close the gates of hell? Fine, I get it, it's a sacrifice, not a suicide. Sam wanting to die AFTER Dean just convinced him NOT to and not closing the gates of hell, I have issues with that. That is what I feel is stupid. If Sam wanted to die so bad he should have died closing the gates of hell. Not after he stopped because Dean begged him to.

    This is almost like with season 5 of Buffy, she was SO ready to give up that she dove off the tower. Sure she stopped the world from ending again, but when she was dragged back she practically had another death wish and was making bad and abusive choices for it.

    The writers are really doing a disservice for Sam writing him like this, just like they were doing a disservice for him when abandoned Dean.

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  36. Sam was DYING! He wasn't a little sick. He was DYING! There was literally nothing he could do to change that fact. What is wrong w/him accepting that? What is wrong w/him accepting his fate? How does that make him weak?

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  37. Thank you for mentioning IMTOD. I doubt those who found Sam weak for accepting his fate thought Dean was weak in that episode when he was clearly going to go w/Tessa.

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  38. Whatever Sam chooses gets labeled as wrong.

    Yup! He just can't win w/some viewers. If he wants normal, he's a selfish jerk. If he wants to complete a task (and die in the process), he's a selfish jerk. For some, Sam always ends up a "selfish jerk."

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  39. Sam's body was dying. His internal organs had been horribly burned so what did you expect Sam to do?

    Sam's body was in the process of dying, and Sam's mind was accepting that. I don't think Sam wanted to die, but that's what was happening to him.

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  40. I think Sam being willing to die is actually a nice change up from them always dying and coming back again. You would think one of them by now would be thinking, when does it all end? Is it always going to be this way? At what point is it ok to say I've done enough and I'm sick of other people getting caught in the Winchester co-dependency crossfire? I always guessed that Sam would come to this point sometime because it just seemed to be part of his personality to hate himself. Hopefully by the end of this season Sam will teach Dean that they can't keep doing this and at some point they have to let each other go. Also, Dean can teach Sam that he doesn't have to feel this way and help him get out of that darkness. This way everybody gets some resolution, whether you agree with Sam or Dean. I blame the writers though because there is zero consistency in how they write these characters and they do not know how to continue and finish a plot. They always throw out these crazy story lines and have no clue how to carry them out and resolve them. I understand leaving some things for the viewers to interpret, but for the love of God, give us something so we don't have to guess all of the time. I think the reason why everyone disagrees so much is because they leave all of us to try to figure it out instead of doing it themselves and we all interpret it differently.

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  41. Honestly it's really strange for me that some fans, especially Sam fans,
    have no problem w/ this aspect of the writers' butchering his
    character; The characters are just human, right, but sometimes the plots
    make Sam weaker than a normal insignificant person while he's one the
    heroes of a supernatural show.

    Well, that's probably b/c we don't see it as "butchering" Sam's character. How does Sam accepting the inevitable butcher his character? He was dying! I keep writing this but it seems some think Sam had the flu in the premiere. He didn't. He was dying.

    When Sam tells Dean he was willing to die and that he was ready to die, he simply means Dean didn't have to have an angel possess his body to save him b/c Sam was okay w/dying. That doesn't mean Sam wanted to die. It just means Sam understood and accepted that he was going to die like Dean did in IMTOD. Sam's fear was being brought back to hurt someone, and that's exactly what happened. Sam was brought back, and Kevin died. Sam didn't want that. If it was his time, it was his time. I don't see how that makes Sam "weak willed."

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  42. Sam wasn't being cold. He was simply stating his feelings. Did you think Dean was being cold in S5 when he was ready to say yes to Michael b/c he "knew" Sam was going to give in to Lucifer?



    And Sam wasn't being nonchalant. He was saying he was ready and willing to die before his body could be used to hurt anyone. Sam's greatest fear came true: his body was brought back to cause harm to people, and that is exactly what Sam wanted to prevent.



    I understand exactly why Dean did what he did in the premiere, but I also understand why Sam was upset though he didn't seem all that angry to me.

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  43. That's a good take on that, it's most likely the writers' intention there. But still since he thinks his biggest sin is letting Dean down, and knowing Dean's biggest concern is Sam's safety, I expected him to show more fight to live, if anything for Dean's sake. That scene in Sacrifice should have had more meaning for them, but still the writers and their inconsistencies!
    I hope so, I like them to have self esteem and fight for their happiness. And yes, consistency and character development are major weak points of these writers.

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  44. "Sam's body was dying. His internal organs had been horribly burned so
    what did you expect Sam to do? His body had shut down to point of his
    mind going into a coma to protect itself. "

    Fight. He's a Winchester, he won an internal fight against LUCIFER to save the world. Sam's mind accepting that, sorry, if he was so bad then he should have TOLD Dean that he was dying anyway and to let him finish it.

    But no, the writers decided to let him quit and THEN give him a death wish. It's stupid.

    Also his internal Bobby, Dean, and Death? Was so BS, it showed Sam being so full of himself. "You gave up on closing the gates of hell! Good job! You're the best!" Really it was sickening that Sam sees himself that way.

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  45. When? When he was in the come? When Head!Dean told him that the trials messed him up pretty bad and he was dying?

    What exactly did you want to see comatose Sam do? I guess they could have just redone IMTOD and shown Sam fighting a reaper and talking about getting back to his brother and to the hunt, but people would have complained about the episodes being too similar.

    Sam and Dean are different people. Sam is a pretty rational, big picture guy. He learned his body was dying and questioned if he should be fighting that, and if so, how was he supposed to fight? He decided to let go and accept his death. I'm not sure why that is such a problem for you. Sam was dying. And as far as he was concerned, he had left things w/Dean in a good place. They "hugged it out" in the church, and Sam could have died knowing he had been forgiven for his greatest sin and that he hadn't let down his brother again.

    I'm assuming Sam wouldn't have thought Dean would have held Sam's dying against Sam!

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  46. Okay, I'm going to be blunt here, I don't think that Sam, on his own, is in so much darkness. Sam tends to plunge into darkness during the times that Dean is repeatedly telling him that he is a failure as a brother and a human being. When Dean pounds Sam over the head with how Sam has let the world down by not hunting. When Dean drags up every mistake Sam has made ever since he got into Dean's ride, WAAAY back in the Pilot. When Dean tells Sam that Benny is more of a brother to him than Sam has EVER been. On his own, Sam finds a job, rebuilds his self esteem, applies to college, starts a life. Amelia may not have been embraced by fandom, but Sam cared for her and was healing because they were together. Sam started the Trials wanting to live. As they went on he became weaker and Dean, who was legitimately worried about him, treated him like a useless kid who needed to be fed and bathed. And Sam began to feel more and more like a useless failure. Dean would say nice things about Sam, but never to Sam and he said the nice things when Sam was pointedly out of the room. Sam QUIT the trials because he wanted to live. He wasn't suicidal. If he had been, he would have continued to heal Crowley and told Dean to go blow.

    Sam has huge issues (heck he probably has whole subscriptions). His self esteem is very low. He has always felt impure . He has been told he is so evil his father wanted him dead. John also said that Sam, himself was too weak to prevent that evil only Dean the great could save him. The angels told him he was evil and an abomination. He was told he was made for Lucifer he is worthy only of the king of evil. I am in NO WAY stating that Sam is stable or perfect and that he hasn't made huge, huge mistakes. But his darkness, as you put it, becomes obvious when Dean consistently reminds Sam of how Sam has let him down and John down, and why Sam is unworthy. When Sam jumped into the Cage, he did it believing that he was "the least of you" after an entire season of Dean, Bobby and Cas telling him that he could never redeem his mistake in trusting Ruby. Even then, he made it clear he didn't WANT to die, he just saw no other alternative to save the world that he had endangered. And everyone was telling him that he endangered it all by his little lonesome, no one else had anything to do with it. It was all Sam.

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  47. You can't fight your body shutting down. That is so unrealistic. Sam didn't have any more powers. He couldn't heal himself. A FULL FLEDGED ANGEL took MONTHS to heal him. What should he have fought with? Should he have pulled a Bobby and refused to die and turned into a vengeful, angry ghost? Because that was the only thing left for him to do if he wanted to fight. His organs were completely burnt. His brain was dying. If he stayed he was going against everything he knew to be moral and right. I'm sorry turning into something you and your family have hunted is a lot worse than letting Dean feel sad.

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  48. Fight. He's a Winchester, he won an internal fight against LUCIFER to save the world.

    No amount of fighting was going to "un-burn" Sam's internal organs. This situation was not at all similar to Lucifer. That was a mental battle of wills. Here, Sam's internal organs were burned and failing. Nothing short of a miracle was going to save him. He could have fought all he wanted, but w/o angelic intervention, he was going to die. Sam is not an idiot. He understand that.

    if he was so bad then he should have TOLD Dean that he was dying anyway and to let him finish it.

    Why do you think Sam knew he was dying anyway? Clearly, he didn't. He stopped the trials to live. If Sam had known he was going to die after stopping the trials, he wouldn't have stopped them; he would have completed them and sacrificed himself for the greater good of the world.

    But no, the writers decided to let him quit and THEN give him a death wish. It's stupid.

    Sam did not have a death wish. He stopped the trials, didn't he? Clearly, he was choosing to live when he stopped the trials. Sam did not expect his body to completely fail once he stopped the trials. Once Sam realized he was in a coma and his body was dying, he simply accepted his fate.

    Also his internal Bobby, Dean, and Death? Was so BS, it showed Sam being so full of himself

    So, Sam can't be proud of his accomplishments? He can't take any solace in the fact that he has helped people, that he saved the world, that he sacrificed for strangers, etc? He can't feel good about himself even when he's dying . . . that's nice to know. I guess Sam must always feel like crap all the time. I'm curious . . . since you think Sam should hate himself, why are you upset that he "wanted" to die?

    I have no problem w/Sam feeling good about the positive things he accomplished while alive and thinking he's done good enough work for this world. I think it's awful that Sam was considered arrogant for seeking some solace in the knowledge that he had gone some good for this world.

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  49. But no, the writers decided to let him quit and THEN give him a death wish. It's stupid.

    Also his internal Bobby, Dean, and Death? Was so BS, it showed Sam
    being so full of himself. "You gave up on closing the gates of hell!
    Good job! You're the best!" Really it was sickening that Sam sees
    himself that way.



    He didn't have a death wish. He was dying, not taking an overdose, not running a car off a bridge, not making a noose to hang himself. He stopped the trials because he didn't have a death wish.



    And really, you want Sam to feel nothing but shame about his life? Bobby didn't praise him for not closing the Gates of Hell, he reminded him that he saved the world by going into the Cage. And that he had saved a whole lot of people these last few years doing a job he HATED and never wanted to do.



    Sam does deserve credit for the good he has done. You can't say it was only Dean while Sam sat around and twiddled his thumbs.

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  50. lala I don't know if great minds think alike, but we certainly do.

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  51. So he should just give up and say "Good job I deserve a rest" when he knew that the job wasn't done? Yeah, cause this is also the man that abandoned his brother and Kevin for the "normal life" with his abusive girlfriend. Sam KNEW in season 8 that he was pretty much dying and when Dean said that closing the gates would kill him he was ready for it. But then Dean keeps him from doing so and making him want to live and then the start of season 9 he's wanting to die again and his own head was telling him how fabulous he is and how Dean is wrong as usual.

    That is bad writing. I like how you and others are making excuses for Sam and I'm sitting here saying how the writers keep screwing him up and over with their crap writing. Take off your blinders people.

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  52. Dean does say a lot of things to Sam that probably does change the way Sam sees things and himself. In Sacrifice, Dean kind of took back all of those things that he said during his speech which I really loved. It was a nice step forward in their relationship. However, Sam chose to live by not doing the trials and then ended up practically dying anyways. I don't necessarily think Sam has ever been suicidal, but more willing to sacrifice himself if that was needed or accept the fact that he was dying if that was what was happening. I'm not sure if he will become completely suicidal. We'll have wait and see.



    I'm saying this darkness would maybe be more of a result of dying, choosing to live, dying anyways, being possessed (which he hates for a good reason), having people killed in the process (which isn't his fault), and then still having to be healed in stages afterwards by Castiel. Plus, removing the leftover grace in this next episode might have permanent effects on him again. He could possibly feel that killing himself would have this cycle finally stop. But again, we haven't seen enough of Sam's perspective to really know.

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  53. Like I said above, Everything Sam does for "good" is motivated by selfish needs. And I'm sick and tired of it. Sam is all about himself and Dean is all about everyone else. The writers need to fix it.

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  54. Hopefully, they do give Sam's POV some more exploration in this next episode, esp. if Sam is supposedly suicidal during the episode. I can't see how they could ignore his POV if that's the case, but I'm sure these writers would rise to the occasion and do just that. Haha!

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  55. Sam's a narcissist. It's how he's written. He's done several things that I'm okay with. But season 8 and 9 have pretty much made me angry at the writers. And when you SamFans go on and on and on about how good he is and how we all hate him and are evil... I'm sorry, I'll pop out all the crap junk he's done.


    There's a girl on the IMDB who does nothing but lavish praise on Sam no matter what, she linked to a "Dean is abusive to Sam" post somewhere and didn't like the fact that people pointed out stuff that the post was doing that showed obvious bias towards Sam to make Dean look worse than he was.


    Now she acts like Dean is physically abusive to Sam when it's been shown that Sam has done more damage to Dean physically and emotionally. If anyone is the abuser of the relationship it's Sam. Again, it's how he's written.

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  56. Calling Sam a " narcissistic douchebag" is not hating him? Okay. Saying that nothing he has done in the entire show is worth anything is not hating him? Saying those of us not criticizing him are delusional and blind is not rude and confrontational for no reason?

    I guess there are no more Sam fans at all on the IMDb boards to harass so you came over here. Haha!

    Like I said, you clearly hate Sam and think he has no positive attributes, which is perfectly fine. Hate him all you want. But you cross the line when you call people w/a different view delusional and blind b/c they don't share your opinion. That goes over well on the IMDb boards, but it is not much appreciated here.

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  57. Yeah . . . I got it.

    Sam = Evil
    Dean = Good

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  58. And it's CLEAR that you can't separate reality from fiction and have to put words in my mouth to try and demonize me.

    The WRITERS make him a total douchebag. And he's WRITTEN as a Narcissist. I know several narcissists that aren't total douchebags.

    And yeah, you ARE deluded because you know nothing about me, or about my views on the show since tonight is the first time I started posting on here.

    You're pretty much telling ME I'm wrong for my views while getting all uppity that I'm calling out Sam Fans for how a lot of them act.



    Take your own damn advice.

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  59. Obviously you don't.

    Writers = Writing Characters bad.

    Big difference. And this is why I'm calling you delusional.

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  60. Uh . . what are you talking about? When did I say it was wrong for you to hate Sam? I said you can hate him all you want. You claimed to NOT hate him. I simply pointed out the parts of your post that any objective person could interpret as "hating" Sam.

    I said you crossed the line when you said I was delusional and blind for not seeing the show the exact same way as you see it. That crosses the line for me.

    We're all different people and will see things differently. You see Sam as an evil, narcissistic, mean douchebag. I don't. You think the writers turned him into a DB. I don't even see him as a DB, so we may as well ATD and call it a day.

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  61. Okay. I'm delusional. Thanks for the diagnosis.

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  62. And you keep putting words in my mouth. You really need to stop. Is defending Sam that important that you need to do that? Seriously. You really don't see where I am coming from in your need to defend poor Sammy.

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  63. You're welcome. There's the door.

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  64. Now what are you talking about? I'm confused. Did you or did you not write that I was telling you were wrong for your views while I got all "uppity" about you calling out Sam fans?

    Your words:
    You're pretty much telling ME I'm wrong for my views while getting all uppity that I'm calling out Sam Fans for how a lot of them act.


    I simply responded to your post. What words did I put in your mouth? You did call me deluded. You've said it at least three times now. Haha! We haven't been discussing the show for the past few posts now.

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  65. Why, thank you. I didn't see it!

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  66. You would think it takes more effort to avoid writing for Sam rather than going with what's right in front of them. They continue to amaze me with how they find ways to ignore his POV.

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  67. Again you are making what Dean wants the primary need not what Sam might want or need .

    Of course I am. Because what Dean wants keeps Sam alive. What Sam wants takes him away. If I truly hated Sam I would've wanted what Sam wants so he'd go away.

    It cannot be both ways Sam cannot have the right to decide his fate but only if he thinks of Dean.



    In my case Sam can have the right to decide but only if it doesn't involve him permanently dying, which just happens to be what Dean wants. I don't understand why wanting Sam around is considered hating on him.

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  68. Did you feel the same in Season 4 when Sam was with Ruby?

    Exactly the same. Sam was wrong but because I could see his reasoning for the things he did I supported him. Sure he teamed up with a demon, got hooked on demon blood and unleashed Lucifer at the end. But it was to rescue Dean from hell, and later to take revenge. Again the emotional weight of the situation overshadows the rational side for me. I cut characters a lot of slack when they do things due to love and the will to protect loved ones. I was in Sam's camp is season 4&5, in Cas' camp in season 6, and now I'm supportive of Dean. The only issue I have with Dean now, which makes me lean more toward Sam, is the codependency. If Sam has truly realized that's the root of the problem and starts on a path to change it (considering I didn't misinterpret his speech at the end,) then I'm 110% on Sam's side.

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  69. Sam never wanted to die. He never said that. It's really a case of "watching the show wrong".

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  70. We don't have to make excuses for Sam. Dean is the one who screwed up.

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  71. When Sam says he was ready to die, I don't think he is suicidal as much as he is tired of struggling with the guilt that comes with knowing other people always seem to get hurt or die when Sam and Dean make selfish choices to hang on to each other. Even if it was only a collateral damage situation and not necessarily a point blank hey Dean, choose:Sam or Kevin, poor poor poor Kevin ultimately died while Sam lived as a result of Dean's inability to let Sam go. While I understand Dean's desperation, I'd also be surprised and disappointed if Sam was 100% okay with that.

    Think about the season opener and the argument inside of Sam's head. Bobby, who ultimately decided to move on before he became a monster himself, was the embodiment of Sam's pro-letting go when your time is up argument, while Dean, who went to hell and back to save Sam, was the pro-live at any cost argument. I think Sam might be afraid of what he and Dean will become if they follow through on the promise they made each other at the end of season 8. Sam's proudest moment is probably jumping into the cage with Lucifer to save the world, and Dean's biggest regret is probably letting him do it and maybe not taking Sam's place. Seems to me like they have been at cross purposes ever since and this season is when it's all coming to a head.

    And then there's Cas, who has been through all of that and back again. He probably understands Dean's self flaggelation and self imposed isolation because he has been there (I'm not good luck Dean) when he decided to stay in Puragory. I bet he also understands how Sam feels about losing control to something or someone else, something dark and twisted because he's been there too. Who would have thought that Cas could at any time be the most well adjusted of the three, but at this point he just might be...

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  72. That scene in sacrifice was the problem, not the solution. They were basically saying screw it, we can be heroic when we feel like it and say nah when we don't and now they are suffering the ramifications and guilt of walking away. I think what Carver is doing is slowly bringing them full circle back to a Swan Song type situation eventually (in one, two, five years, whatever) and one or both will step up and make the ultimate sacrifice. Could be wrong.

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  73. Oh great now a vicious Sam hater attacking anyone who disagrees with her has infiltrated into the thread. As if we don't have enough of you already.

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  74. If Dean is all about himself. how come he allows an angel to enter his brother's body without permission just so he can live? That's DEAN wanting his brother to be alive that has nothing to do with what anyone else want. Do you even WATCH the show?

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  75. At this rate you are going to get banned.

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  76. Not one writer would think you were sane if you said that about Sam. They are NOT writing him that way. If you see him that way, that is your own hateful interpretation. That was NEVER intended. HE is one of the main characters and one of the heroes. If you see him that way there is something wrong here. By the way, your personal attacks are juvenile and will earn you nothing but being banned, Don't they teach you that in south Florida?

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  77. Do you? You obviously don't get the fact that Dean has been conditioned since day one to protect Sammy. He can't do anything else but turn the world inside out to protect him. He doesn't know any other way. That is how Dean has been written.

    As for banning, this is coming from the guy who's first post is to attack the author of the review.

    The bottom line that you and several others love to ignore is that the writing for Sam and Dean is at the point where people are starting to lose interest in the characters because it's the same song and dance, over, and over again. It's practically been that way since season six and it's just getting worse.

    Sam was horribly out of character last season and this season he's barely been himself, and the one time we can be certain he was himself it was more of his season 8 out of character writing.

    There's an interview with Jared and once again he talks about a big fight between Sam and Dean. My response to that is "again?!" cause we didn't have enough of that with Soulless Sam, Amy, Sam ditching Dean...

    Round and round it goes. It's a disservice to both characters and the audience.

    But you guys just want to label me a Sam hater because of the fact that I see this. You attack me for not having the same opinions as you, and then "call me out" for pretty much doing what you are doing to me.

    There is a word for people like you. Hypocrite.

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  78. I'm disagreeing with you. You are the one name calling here. Who's attacking who?

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  79. blah blah blah blah blah

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  80. The first thing you did was attack someone.
    Jared, unlike you, would understand that my gripes are with the way the character is written, not with him.
    Also, you obviously don't know me, and feel that it is a personal attack that I have a low regard for how the characters are written these days. I also has a problem with the canon defilement that has been going on for the past few seasons.
    I like how you keep attacking me, telling me how I am wrong and playing the victim because my view doesn't agree with yours. For the record, I felt that Buffy was a selfish self absorbed abusive jerk with how she was written in later seasons.
    I no longer see Sam as a character because he's pretty much a walking plot device/Macguffin for the writers to rehash the same stories over. We're 10 episodes into the season and the audience can be positive that Sam is Sam in a total of one full episode of the 10 of this season. For all we know from the moment Gadreel possessed Sam to when Crowley found him in his head, that was Gad pretending to be Sam for 9 episodes.
    Great way to treat a character writers.

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  81. Comparing these 2 isn't a valid argument. Why IMTOD? Let me bring up Faith, in IMTOD at least Dean was fighting at first, in Faith he was plain acceptance, w/o the slightest resistance; But there is a big difference, back then their knowledge was so limited, they didn't know there's any supernatural power that can do good, they didn't know angels were real and they can heal and resurrect humans.
    What was Dean waiting in the hospital for in S9E1? He was waiting for a higher power to come save the day because he knew it was possible and he had 'hope', sth Sam was aware of too but hadn't that 'hope'. (And before anyone bring it up, I know Cas said he couldn't heal the damage, but apparently along the line the writers decided that yes, an angel can heal Sam after all)

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  82. That was harsh, I've never seen Dean to be such a jerk brother you're portraying him, Dean never "repeatedly telling him that he is a failure as a brother and a human being", where did it come from? Besides it's not like Sam ever held back when he thought Dean was wrong or unfair to him.


    I admit Dean's opinion about Sam has way more impact on Sam than anyone else, but it has a positive side too, when Dean repeatedly assures Sam he's good, has done good and shouldn't be hard on himself. You can't say his admonishing screwed Sam to the core and his praising did nothing.

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  83. It seems to me you wanted Sam to do something he could not do . At the end of the day it is Sam's life and one which has brought alot of pain if he wanted to say enough then that was his right. To many people have a go at him for not acting the way they want instead of actually thinking of Sam .

    The power of the mind can be a wonderous thing but it cannot do the impossible and frankly to put this on Sam in the condition he was in is unfair .
    And if Sam still have those feelings then I have no problems with that , lets face it Sam is still alive because of other peoples choices about what they wanted for Sam. The only thing I want is that how Sam feels is explored and it is not just aload of old tosh from the writers and Jeremy .

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  84. OK, I guess I have higher standards.


    I explained about this 'dying anyway' and 'acceptance' in another post. Sam hadn't heard the doctors, it wasn't like he was absolutely sure he was dying and there was no way to save him. I'm talking about his inner struggle, where he was unconsciously encouraging himself to accept death, an easy way out at that time, and yes, it doesn't necessarily label him as suicidal, but his insistence in this ep does.
    There WAS hope, apparently this dying wasn't inevitable, it was just their bad luck the bad angel showed first and told the only way is possession, who knows? maybe another good angel would come to the rescue later. My point is in their vast knowledge they know there's an angelic or higher power way, sth they didn't know in IMTOD or Faith, Dean knew and had hope, Sam knew and didn't have hope, or didn't want to take the chance.
    About Kevin, nobody knew it would happen, unknown consequences shouldn't prevent people from fighting and taking their chances. Besides it wasn't all tragic consequences, after all Gadreel was a hell of fix-it-all for a while and saved Cas, Charlie and Sam himself. lol

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  85. Then, deep honest, Sam didn't want to die, that's why he said yes. He clearly stated how he was happy w/ his life for the first time in like ever in ep2, he wanted to live and he wanted to be happy, all I'm saying is he should have shown more fight to reach this happiness.
    And no, I didn't say power of will was the cure, but he could be willing to hang on until the actual cure is found. We see many people w/ terminal diseases in real life who are fighting and hoping to be cured some day, I expect the same thing from my hero in my favorite show. Having down time is pretty common for anyone, but choosing the easy escape and insisting on it is not acceptable, like Dean's alcoholism (which I believe was weakness too). They need to address these traits and accept they are wrong, not defend them.

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  86. This is now offensive to me. You are stating that mind over matter can work if the person just TRIES hard enough. Sam's organs ALL OF THEM were destroyed. There was no cure to wait for. PERIOD. The doctors stated there was no cure. Heck it took Gadreel MONTHS to even partly heal Sam. Sam could not have held on for months. And there is no human cure now for what happened to Sam

    And yes you are saying that willpower is all it takes to overcome a terminal illness and that ANYONE who dies EVER is just a weak willed slacker who should buck up, pull it together, stop whining and just stop dying. That is unrealistic. Blaming a terminally ill person for dying is cruel and ridiculous.

    You asked in another post how Sam KNEW he was dying. People do feel what is happening in their bodies. I fell off a swing set when I was eleven and knew immediately that I had broken my arm. Jim Hensen had what seemed to be flu. He went to a doctor who told him the typical take aspirin and rest. A few days later he told his ex-wife who was visiting that he thought he was dying. Sadly, he was right and he did die from that illness. We live with our bodies all of our lives, sometimes we know when we are seriously ill. Sometimes we can tell that we are ill enough to be dying.

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  87. What?! Whom did I ever offend? I never claimed his mind could cure his burned out organs, neither did I say terminally ill people are weak ... How could you deduce these things from my post?!!!

    Of course Sam felt he was dying, basically it was why that inner debate started, I'm saying despite all this Sam knew there could be a supernatural way to get out (why is the doctors words important here? They didn't know about supernatural), I agree he was rightfully worried if it was a bad way, but if a good angel had come forth everything could end nicely, that's why he said yes.





    Honestly, why are we having this argument? They intended for Sam to be suicidal, cast hinted about it, and by Sam's insistence in this ep they want to make sure we see it. It is there, unfortunately, you can't deny it. You can make excuse that it's alright, Sam had suffered more than enough it's obvious he want to be at peace,.. I think it's a matter of personal believes and preferences, I for one prefer the hero to be though despite all the hardship, some people don't, it's OK, everyone can have their idea and arguing here that you are wrong or I am right is useless.

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  88. I thought she was talking the way she did to show that she was too much like Crowley to survive Abaddon's reign. Crowley did the same gushing over Cas, albeit in a more low-key tone, when they worked together in season 6.

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  89. Back in season 6 the way the show (not just Dean, but the collective attitude of the story) handled Castiel's misstep strongly implied a verdict that the end didn't justify the means. I came to understand that no matter how dire, justifiable, or “right” Cas’ reasons for doing the things he did were he would not be excused because the end result was world’s destruction through the Leviathans. So my understanding of SPN’s moral compass was that if you do something that ends in disaster you don’t get to justify it by bringing forth all the “good” reasons you did it.
    Fast forward to season 9 where roles are reversed and it is Dean now who stands in the metaphorical ring of fire. The insertion of the line “stupid for the right reasons” made me do a double take. The show essentially went back on its own decree and said that it is in fact ok to make stupid mistakes if you’re doing them for a good cause. That made me question why no one said that to Castiel in season 6 and why he was dragged through the mud for another season and half when he was basically trying to stop Raphael from reinstalling the apocalypse and destroying the world. Why did the show, and every character on the show, write off his reasoning as excuses and snubbed even his future attempts at making amends? And if that all was in fact the right course of action because a road paved in good intentions is still wrong if it leads to hell, then why didn't the writers serve the same dish to Dean this season and changed the company line to “Ok if for the right reasons?"



    The story in season 6 mostly felt like a reason to make sure fans would be OK with Misha being fired, so that meant no characters could empathize with what Cas did.


    Beyond that, I think it was true to Bobby and Dean to have no real interest in understanding what Cas did. Sam might have, but he was too busy being assaulted by Cas.


    With the tables turned, I think it's in character for Cas, who knows about no-win situations, and being manipulated, to support Dean, especially when Dean was so broken.


    Is the show using Cas to absolve him? I don't know. I feel like they've said what Dean did was a violation and led to Kevin's murder.

    I think they just wanted to make sure Dean wasn't completely isolated and turned into a whipping boy, and they wanted to write true to the characters.

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  90. The thing is, the reaction to Sam's actions in season four was pretty much the same as to Cas's in season six. No one cared why he did what he did. There was no absolution from Dean, or Bobby or Cas. So the sudden rush to have characters tell Dean that he didn't really do anything wrong. Or that his intentions were good, so nothing else counts does bother me. It just feels as if they are sweeping what Dean did under the rug.

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  91. And no, I didn't say power of will was the cure, but he could be willing to hang on until the actual cure is found.

    There was NO cure. That's the point. There was nothing man or science could do to heal Sam's wounds. Sam's doctor made that very clear. Was Sam supposed to know that an angel was going to soon possess him?

    All Sam knew and understood was that he was dying. Even if he had "hung on," it's not like he would have been awake and just hanging out in the hospital. He would have remained in a coma on life support in the hospital. He may have even slipped into a vegetative state.

    And how is dying the "easy escape?" Sometimes, people's bodies give out. I don't think you can call someone who dies from a terminal illness weak b/c they died or had no fight left in them. Unless you've walked in their shoes, you don't know and can't speak to their situations.

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  92. What?! Whom did I ever offend? I never claimed his mind could cure his burned out organs, neither did I say terminally ill people are weak ... How could you deduce these things from my post?!!!

    I got the same things from your post. You asked how did Sam make sure he was dyimg, and you mentioned not underestimating the power of the mind, and that Sam gave up. All those things led me to believe you thought Sam, through the power of his mind, could heal his burned organs and was weak because he didn't try.

    This current post outlines your point better than your other posts, IMO. You are correct. Everyone will have a different position. I don't think Sam is weak for accepting his imminent death. Sure, he could have thought Castiel might save him but maybe he figured it was impossible since he was still in a coma and dying. Maybe that's why his Head Dean had no options. For all Sam knew, everything supernatural and non-supernatural had been attempted, and his fate was the same. Maybe he didn't see anything to fight for, meaning there were no options for him.

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  93. I think it is a valid comparison. In IMTOD, Dean had to accept that he wasn't getting back in his body so he could go with the Reaper or become an angry ghost. He decided to go with the Reaper.

    Here, Sam understands his body is failing so he can remain in a coma for the rest of his life or move on to the next phase of life and hopefully see Jessica, John, and Mary in Heaven. He chose the latter.

    And as I outlined above, for all we know, Sam didn't have any reason to think he could be saved. If an angel could heal him, maybe Sam thought they would have done it already. Maybe Sam thought they tried and failed. We don't know.

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  94. "and there was nothing SAM could do ..."

    Here! Nobody said Sam could heal himself, or his will power could be a cure. Head!Dean was asking him to fight and let him find a way, but Sam said there was nothing to fight for. Miracle or what we'd seen repeatedly after S4 by introducing angels is not uncommon in this show, and it's a fact.

    "That seems to really bother you. You find it weak, which is fine. I disagree."



    I'm w/ you here, we can agree to disagree about moral strength of humans and media attractions.

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  95. As far as we know Sam thought all opportunities had been explored and failed. Maybe he thought if something supernatural could have saved him, he wouldn't have been in a coma dying. We don't know.

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  96. As I outlined above, many of your posts seem to imply that Sam could have healed himself but I now understand that wasn't what you meant.

    I still believe we don't know what Sam was thinking while in his coma. The fact that he was in a coma and dying could mean Sam thought even the angels couldn't help him, and let's not forget that Castiel did say Sam was damaged in ways he couldn't even heal. Sam probably remembered that, and thought his death was inevitable.

    But we can ATD.

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  97. Woah, are you really making such an extreme blanket statement:

    They had made everything, everyone's motives, every conflict, every sacrifice, about Sam's need to be pampered.

    Why do you see the situation like that?

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  98. "There was nothing man or science could do to heal Sam's wounds"

    Hello! We're talking about Supernatural here, the show w/ angels, demons, God, a receipt to speak animal language,... Who said anything about science here? Also these phenomenons have increased vastly from S1 and as it's implied there's still more rooms to explore
    Of course Sam should have thought an angel could come and save him, or another solution. As it's stated numerous time, anything is possible in this show. Sam knew there was a way and that's why he said yes.
    Also He didn't know he could end up like vegetable, all he knew was that he was dying, medically.


    "I don't think you can call someone who dies from a terminal illness weak b/c they died or had no fight left in them. Unless you've walked in their shoes, you don't know and can't speak to their situations."



    I never said that, don't make it sound like I'm making light of their situations. I could never imagine myself in their shoes, I sympathize w/ them and praise the ones who try to stay strong despite it all, they are the real heroes.

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  99. Well obviously you were a little hasty in reading my posts, I'd clearly stated that will power was not the cure earlier, repeatedly. I think sometimes in the heat of discussions we tend to pay less attention to what the opposite side is saying. I for my part try to be more clear to avoid these misunderstandings.

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  100. As I stated earlier the supernatural aspect of the show has grown drastically since S1, introducing angels changed a lot of things, and now we don't know what we may face in the future. Sam as a supernatural pro knew there could be a way to get out, but as you said he thought maybe it was best to go to the next phase.
    Honestly I wouldn't judge the decision of a sick person in his down time, but the fact they made him bring up his willingness to die in this ep and insisting on it shows that it's more that a mere acceptance, they want to go w/ the suicidal plot line.
    I wish they give Sam more POV and don't leave us guessing and speculating all the time.

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  101. The last thing Sam heard was that he was damaged in a way that even Castiel couldn't heal. As far as Sam knew, there was no supernatural cure for him. He was dying, and nothing was going to stop it.

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  102. Sam as a supernatural pro knew there could be a way to get out


    True, but Castiel told Sam and Dean that Sam was damaged on a level that even he couldn't heal Sam. Perhaps Sam remembered that and figured since he was in a coma and apparently dying, there was no supernatural "fix" for him. Life, as he knew it, was over. Believing that, Sam thought it was best to move on.



    We don't know, but that makes sense given what Castiel told them last year.

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  103. I don't think I was hasty. You said: "I know his body was falling apart but don't underestimate the power of
    mind, all that inner struggle was about this power of mind and will, not
    actual physical conditions, and sadly Sam was willing to give up."

    To me, that sounds like you're saying Sam, through the power of his mind, had the ability to heal himself or could improve his situation. He may have held on longer, but it's not like his actual situation would have improved any.

    As I said, your later posts were clearer in the point you were trying to make. I believe Sam recalled Castiel's words about him being damaged in ways Castiel could not fix and figured there was no supernatural fix to his problems.

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  104. All of Season 5. Dean was depressed and suicidal that entire season. It eventually got on my nerves, but I never considered him weak.

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  105. Should I quot myself from my comments posted around the time that particular comment was posted? (Let alone the possibility of supernatural ways I was talking about in that post) I have a feeling it'll be pointless, and honestly I don't want to turn this discussion to a dispute, let's leave it as a misunderstanding.

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  106. That's fine. I do believe I understand the point you've been trying to make. I think Sam probably thought there was no supernatural cure for him given what Castiel said in that Meg episode, so when he realized he was in a coma and dying, he probably thought that was "it" for him.

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  107. Yes Sam suffered the same fate although his was a bit less dragged out. I was always baffled by the fact that they went out of their way to show Sam's backstory and motives in "I know what you did last summer," and Castiel's in "The man who would be king," and did nothing with it. We, the audience, saw what drove them to their questionable choices. We were allowed to sympathize with them. But no characters on the show got the same deal, so they kept pounding on them without considering the emotional undercurrents.

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  108. Well, Sam knew that Cas, therefore angels, couldn't heal him, since he was damaged at a molecular level, if I remember correctly. You seem to saying that Sam should fight to stay alive, no matter the cost to himself or others. He knows more than anyone else that there are fates worse than death, and he didn't want to be brought back by supernatural means and end up, say, possessed by a psycho angel and watching Kevin die by his own hand.


    You'll probably say that Dean couldn't have known about Gadreel, but he knew that angels aren't any better than demons and that he was taking a chance, like Sam in season 4 with Ruby.


    It's amazing to me all the effort spent on blaming Sam for Dean's betrayal.

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  109. My point is there are many supernatural possibilities and it didn't necessarily need to end w/ angels, or Cas in this case; Though I preferred if they could come up w/ another cure, or hadn't made Cas tell them even he couldn't fix the damage. It's like in S8 they wanted to magnify the crisis w/o preparing a solution, and when in S9 they came to the cure part and had nothing said 'well, why not? Let's go w/ the angels again, we add a twist to make it different this time', but it didn't change the fact that it was still an angel's grace.


    Anyway, all I'm trying to say is in Supernatural we learnt nothing is impossible, Sam knows this and that's why he wasn't shocked out of his mind when Dean implied there could be a way, and said yes.

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  110. Well guess what, turned out the angels could cure him after all. We can call it inconsistency or writers laziness to come up w/ a new cure, but it doesn't change the outcome that Sam could be healed.
    No, I never said Sam should fight at any cost, I think it's better you read my comments again.
    Actually many of the angels are better than demons, like Cas.
    Also I don't think Dean's trying to save Sam can be called 'betrayal'!

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  111. Death-at-the-end fights can't be considered suicide, Sam willing to go to dark side in S4, Dean accepting to be Micheal's vessel and Sam diving in the cage in S5, or Dean and then Sam being willing to die to close the gates in S8, they are all heroic death, they were trying to achieve higher gains by sacrificing their lives.
    What I call suicide is Dean in Croatoan, or his temporary attitude in S3 before Sam's talk w/ him, and here Sam insisting to be willing to die and the implied suicidal tendencies in S9. There's no gain in their death, they simply claim they're tired or death is inevitable or they want to be in peace. For me they are weakness and I don't like to see my heroes like it, but it's just my preferences.

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  112. Yes, Dean tricking Sam into doing something that ends up hurting people, Sam's worst nightmare, is the very definition of betrayal.


    And regarding angels, Dean said it best: Angels are dicks.

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  113. I didn't say that very well: Dean knew and said that Sam would rather die than be possessed again. He knew the history with Lucifer. But he did it anyway. It's betrayal for sure.

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  114. I think it's because Dean is so close to Cas. At that time Cas barely knew Sam. And Dean and Bobby just weren't the type to offer heavy praise.

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  115. I hear you. I guess all I'm saying is it is perfectly understandable - to me - if Sam thought there were no supernatural options to fix him. If an angel couldn't heal him, then I could see Sam thinking nothing else could.

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  116. I would buy your protestations that your only problem is with the writers except for this.
    Also his internal Bobby, Dean, and Death? Was so BS, it showed Sam being so full of himself


    You state absolutely without any qualification that Sam as a character has no right to be proud of anything he has done. Zero, Zilch, Nada. Sam must be forever ashamed of himself and live for what Dean wants. In fact any people that he saved must be credited to Dean, even if Dean wasn't there. That statement makes it clear that you are judging Sam as a character and not poor writing.

    And no, you are NOT saying the writers keep screwing him. You are are Sam bashing as hard as you can. Let's face it, if Sam had said I don't want to die closing the Gates of Hell, you would be going on and on about how selfish he was to endanger the world by not continuing. You are simply and purely saying that Sam must do whatever Dean wants or he is bad, evil wrong.

    So he should just give up and say "Good job I deserve a rest" when he knew that the job wasn't done?


    Sam's head was not telling him that Dean was wrong again. The side of him that wanted to live was represented by Dean. The side that knew he was dying and wanted to accept that was represented by Bobby. He gave into the knowledge that he was dying, that he had made the world a little safer, which was true as much as you want to deny it. In the end, when "Dean" appeared and told him he had a way for Sam to live, Sam immediately trusted Dean and did what "Dean" asked. As of this last episode, Sam hasn't pointed a gun at his head and tried to shoot himself, he hasn't been found hanging from the rafters, he hasn't slit his wrists. He HAS informed Dean that he was ready and willing to die to keep from hurting anyone else and Dean violated his body by giving him to an angel and that angel murdered Kevin. So don't go telling me that Sam is suicidal now. We may be shown that he is at a later date, but currently, he is alive and not doing anything to change that.

    Once his internal organs were burned and no longer functioning, yes.

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  117. I hear you. I guess all I'm saying is it is perfectly understandable - to me - if Sam thought there were no supernatural options to fix him. If an angel couldn't heal him, then I could see Sam thinking nothing else could, esp. since he was in a coma and dying.

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  118. I think it's because Dean is so close to Cas. At that time Cas barely knew Sam. And Dean and Bobby just weren't the type to offer heavy praise.

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  119. I didn't say that very well: Dean knew and said that Sam would rather die than be possessed again. He knew the history with Lucifer. But he did it anyway. It's betrayal for sure.

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  120. Yes, Dean tricking Sam into doing something that ends up hurting people, Sam's worst nightmare, is the very definition of betrayal.


    And regarding angels, Dean said it best: Angels are dicks.

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  121. Death-at-the-end fights can't be considered suicide, Sam willing to go to dark side in S4, Dean accepting to be Micheal's vessel and Sam diving in the cage in S5, or Dean and then Sam being willing to die to close the gates in S8, they are all heroic death, they were trying to achieve higher gains by sacrificing their lives.
    What I call suicide is Dean in Croatoan, or his temporary attitude in S3 before Sam's talk w/ him, and here Sam insisting to be willing to die and the implied suicidal tendencies in S9. There's no gain in their death, they simply claim they're tired or death is inevitable or they want to be in peace. For me it is weakness and I don't like to see my heroes like it, but it's just my preferences.

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  122. People keep repeating he was dying so he accepted it, exactly how did he make sure he was dying? It wasn't like he had heard the doctors verdict! It wasn't a case of accepting inevitable because apparently it 'was not' inevitable (and from how Cas reacted in E10, I think possession was not the only way). In their line of work they're aware of many possibilities, well more bad than good but still Sam knew he could be saved that's why said yes in the end, but before that he was weary and sick and tired of fighting. I know his body was falling apart but don't underestimate the power of mind, all that inner struggle was about this power of mind and will, not actual physical conditions, and sadly Sam was willing to give up.


    Don't make it sound like I'm making up this suicidal tendencies, the writers intend to show us there's such thing, it seems sometime between S8 and S9 they thought, 'Oh! it seems to be an interesting twist!' Damn with their choosing each other in Sacrifice, their promise to work together, or Sam's journey to purity (another mushroom plot that popped up and left hanging unresolved). This suicidal tendency is there, they'd mentioned it and Sam's insistence to be ready to die here in this ep is another proof they want us to see it.

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  123. Sam was in a coma. How would he have been able to check? The episode wasn't like IMTOD where Sam was roaming around the hospital like a ghost. Sam was trapped in his own mind as a result of the coma. He understood his body was dying. There was no need to check anything.

    And I'm not making it sound like you're making up anything. I'm simply saying Sam's internal organs had been burned, and there was nothing SAM could do about that. No amount of inner struggle was suddenly going to heal Sam's internal burns. As we saw, nothing short of a miracle was going to save him. That's the story we were told. That's what Sam understood so he accepted the fact that he was dying.

    That seems to really bother you. You find it weak, which is fine. I disagree.

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  124. So, according to you, nothing Sam does is right. He is a selfish, horrible person.

    Clearly, you don't like Sam. Nothing he does will ever be okay w/you.

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  125. You know what . . . I was going to respond but you hate Sam. I get that now. That's fine. I don't hate him.

    Any "discussion" we have would be pointless and circular so I'm bowing out now.

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  126. what seriously thats just sick, how can you stand and take pictures with a star when all you do is slag off the character they play and care about? Thats kinda pathetic.

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  127. Good point wasnt the whole reason Sam did the trials in the first place was because Dean was suicidal? Didnt so much as admit it? So I guess Dean was also weak willed and not tough hero material as well then? Not to mention all the other times Dean has basically given up only to be pulled back from suicide by Sam (Faith, IMTOD, Croatoan, AHBL, Beaking Point, Trial and Error and those are just the ones I can remember). In fact imo Sam has always been much more willing to live than Dean even despite all of Sam's suffering.

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  128. Yes, they were so excited that for the first time the brothers chose each other, it's like Carver was itching to be the one creating this milestone, w/o a care to go on w/ its emotional consequences.

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  129. No. I hate that the writers pretty much make him a total douchebag and expects everyone to love him for it and dump on Dean because of it.


    I hate that the writers treat Sam so badly.



    And I hate when all his fangirls make excuses for him and the writers like you are doing. Big difference.

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  130. And Lala2 is telling me how I'm bad for telling people off for not having the same opinion as them. ::Rolls eyes.::

    Really, how about you stop making excuses for the bad writing cause you have some need to defend a fictional character.

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