Hello Supernatural fans and welcome to the midseason finale gripe review. This review is about the gripes fans have with the episode Holy Terror. Let me start by saying that I enjoyed this episode, more than any episode that came after the premier, especially everything after 9.03. It was the only episode besides the premier and 9.03 that dealt with the mythology. It was also action packed and moved the plot forward, a plot that had been dragging its feet since episode 3.
The downside though was that this episode was written by my least favorite writing duo: Brad Buckner & Eugenie Ross-Leming. Below are the reasons why my enjoyment of the episode was sullied by some of their, and Carver's, choices.
Gripe #1: How did Castiel go from Gas-N-Sip’s sales associate to Agent Cas?
It was pointed out to me that the most important parts of Castiel’s story this season keep happening off screen. Meanwhile a bunch of trivialities - him babysitting, wrestling with a Slurpee machine, and ogling breasts on the street - are given attention. We never found out how homeless Cas managed to land a job at a gas station. Similarly we don’t know how he went from the gas station to wearing a suit and playing FBI. What happened to Nora and Cas’ job? They not only don’t show this, they don’t even bother to slip a line of dialogue here or there to explain it. It’s like the writers put Cas wherever it suits them and we, the audience, must accept it and move on.
Gripe #2: Dean, the single-minded zealot follower of (Not)Ezekiel.
I hate it when they dumb down characters, or make them OOC, for the sake of the plot. A lot of that has been going on this season, mostly involving Sam who ignored every neon sign that screamed at him "Something is wrong with you!!!" so Carver could drag the possession plot so far. This episode however did it to Dean.
Let’s make something very clear. Dean is smart. He wouldn't have survived this long, in his line of work, had he not been smart. So the only way it makes sense for him to follow an anonymous angel so mindlessly is when the plot demands of him. How else can Dean not suspect (Not)Ezekiel when he insists on ditching Castiel? I swallowed it the first time because it was about the MOL bunker and he didn’t want the angel factions to find it, even though it still made no sense because Castiel was warded. But when he again tells Dean to get rid of the other angel, who has been his only reference and the reason he was accepted in the first place, shouldn't Dean hear alarm bells? Shouldn’t he ask him why he is suddenly so against Castiel when the first time he appeared, he claimed to be one of his loyal supporters?
And what about Kevin? When Dean finally finds out about something not being quite right with "Zeke" he doesn't tell Kevin. Smart Dean would have definitely done that, because the one thing he could use in this situation is an ally, especially one with high IQ who is fully trustworthy. But for an inexplicable reason (plot convenience) Dean refuses to tell Kevin the truth. Instead he bullies him into concocting a spell that isn't tested and might very well not work. No matter how much Kevin tries to reason with him, or at least get more information out of him, Dean wouldn't budge. He acts like an abusive big brother who lost his stash of drugs and is crashing. Not only does he insult and push Kevin around, he ends up indirectly causing his death.
Why do Carver and his writers make Dean act like this? My personal theory is that they have heard the calls of fans complaining about the brotherly bond, and the damage recent seasons have dealt to it, and think the solution is to have one brother act like his pants are on fire every time the other is hurt. They are so hell bent on showing Dean’s priority in life is Sam that they force Dean to bend over backwards and drop brain cells in order to do it. Dean prioritized Sam before, throughout the entire series in fact, but he did it in wise ways, and never at the expense of another’s life. In 4.10 when the angels gave him a choice between handing over Anna or losing Sam, he chose the third option and tricked them. He didn't check out all his morals at the door and sacrifice Anna for Sam. That’s the Dean Winchester I used to know and love. This season’s Dean is a product of lazy writing by folks who don’t know the character all too well.
Gripe #3: Let's talk about the poor girl who got possessed by a reaper, was forced to have sex with Castiel, then was killed by Dean. Man, but was she hot!
I had huge problems with the way the boys joked around about April at the end of 9.03. Let’s not forget that she was a sweet girl who was possessed by an evil being who then used her body for its own purposes like having sex with Castiel and then torturing and killing him. Both April and Castiel suffered in that ordeal, and I'm sure Dean did too for having to watch his best friend die and kill the host along with the being inside the body. Is talking about how hot that body was really the appropriate way to reminisce the incident? Don’t they see how wrong this is? Like looking at an accident and, instead of being horrified, eyeing the injured, possibly dead girl they’re currently loading onto a gurney because she is/was sexy. Even if an innocent girl wasn't involved, how could the other two, who equally suffered through the ordeal in various ways, chat about it so casually and focus, of all things, on objectifying the third victim? Is proving that these two are macho, heterosexual males worth making them callous, insensitive people?
Gripe #4: What is the angel mythology again?
No writer is as fond of messing with canon as Brad Buckner & Eugenie Ross-Leming. In Taxi Driver they changed the entire mythology for Purgatory and Hell, and invented the Rogue Reapers, unbalancing much of the storylines that came before it. In I’m No Angel they made reapers body snatchers like demons and angels.
In Holy Terror we find out angel graces do not come with a name tag attached to them. They aren’t like human souls, which have a one to one relationship with their owners. Instead they are like those five hour energy shots. Any angel could slice through another angel’s skin and steal his or her grace, thus making it his own, as Castiel did in this episode. A grace is just the battery fluid on which the angel engines run.
Except that causes a whole lot of canon problems. Like why Castiel didn’t do the same thing with Hael, or the angel he killed on the bus in 9.03. Also if a grace is so generic why did Metatron collect Castiel’s grace in a bottle? Why did Anna search for hers for so long when she could have just ripped one out of the red shirt angels that came after her? Why, when he was losing his powers at the end of season 5, didn’t Castiel absorb a grace from one of the many angels he killed?
And while we’re on the topic of angel mythology, since when do angels possess humans using white smoke? Didn’t they appear as beams of light that fell on human vessels as shown in The Rapture and Point of No Return? What is this smoke if angel graces are just generic power juice?
Gripe #5: Why don’t these bad guys consider Dean Winchester a threat?
At the end of the episode Gadreel, after smiting Kevin and knocking Dean around, simply leaves the room. Didn’t he see the lose end? Are he and Metatron both so secure in their power that they don’t consider a Winchester dangerous, especially when they killed one of his allies who was like family to him, and hijacked the body of his brother? The answer to why Gadreel didn't kill Dean is obviously because Dean is a main character that can’t be killed permanently. However the writers didn't even bother to cook up some excuse to explain this lack of foresight within their own canon.
There were some other gripes that I left out. For example, some fans were unhappy with Castiel’s incompetence in plugging in a TV (something a newly earthbound angel had no trouble understanding.) Then there’s the reiteration of yet another hurt!Sam scenario we seem to be heading to. I left both of those, plus some other similar issues, out of this review because the first will be addressed in a later review I plan to write for the whole of season 9 so far, and the other is based on a preview and yet not confirmed. So I will round this up with only these episode-specific gripes and leave the floor to you, the audience, to sound off in the comments.
Tessa
tessa-marlene.tumblr.com/
twitter.com/tessa_marlene
Stop watching the show, it's clear you hate it now. There is no other explanation as to why a "fan" of the show would write a 15 paragraph nitpick complaint review.
ReplyDeleteAlso don't give me some response that you have watched it from the beginning or you watch because of the characters. Because going by your reviews this is a different show and the characters aren't the same anymore. So that complaint doesn't work.
No clue why you jaded fans continue to watch if it is such a terrible show now.
I have no idea why you would come into a topic labeled GRIPE thread and then be offended that someone is talking about what they didn't like. My impression is that the WHOLE POINT of this is to give fans who have problems with the writing a place to talk about those issues without bothering those who have no issues.
ReplyDeleteI say, stop reading this topic, it's clear you hate it. There is no other explanation as to why a reader would bounce in here to write a rebuke for someone with a different opinion.
And don't give me the excuse that you have watched the show for so long that you feel compelled to read every article on it.
I have no clue why you jaded readers continue to come into discussion on such a terrible topic.
Oh look another jaded fan.
ReplyDeleteThanks Percy for sparing me to reply to the same complaint this review gets every week. I suspect some people just read the title, count the paragraphs, and skip the rest. I clearly stated in the beginning that I enjoyed the episode. To answer the oh, so mind boggling question of why I write these reviews, you said it best: to give fans who have problems with the writing a place to talk about those issues without bothering those who have no issues.
ReplyDeleteHere is the deal with Supernatural: A lot of its fans treat it as more than a TV show. We are part of a community that lives and thrives on the show. Not watching means leaving that community and all of its perks behind. We don't want to do that. Watching, then writing these reviews to voice my concerns, as well as those I hear from others, helps balance things out. It's like getting your misbehaving child a supernanny instead of simply abandoning him.
Castiel was also there in season 8, I don't think the writers remember that the place was guarded.
ReplyDeleteWas he? I didn't remember that, thanks! Maybe they can't zap inside the building, but they can still teleport outside and walk in?
ReplyDeleteI miss Sam, my gripe this season is that Sam has been.... nowhere doing nothing and who knows when we'll actually get a Sam that is just Sam being one of the best hunters around, having fun, getting a look inside his head, getting to see him interact with guests stars, being part of the narrative, talking about his feelings, kicking some ass. I feel like the writers have no interest in writing for Sam but only using him as a plot device in the whole Dean/Zeke storyline. I'm really quite disappointed that I have nothing to look forward to in the second half of the season, that I may have to brace myself for Sam being trashed by other fans for daring to be angry about Dean's lying and the whole being possessed thing. Worst of all I fear that Gadreel will possess Sam all season and we wont have Sam at all OR Gadreel will be expelled and Sam will just spend the rest of the season hanging around in the background making faces at whatever Dean's saying or doing or leaving the room when Dean is talking to someone else.
ReplyDeleteI watch this show for Sam, he's the only reason I watch and I feel like he's been reduced to nothing but a plot device, to nothing more than Dean's research guy and his burden.
I have gotten to the stage when I feel like for this Sam fan to feel happy they need to kill him off permanently because what they're doing/not doing now is just painful.
Are you actively trying to be ignorant? The description of the article, EVERY gripe review says these are gripes from OTHER PEOPLE.
ReplyDeleteSam not being part of the storyline was one of the gripes that was suggested to me for this episode. I decided to save that one for the overall review as well, because it's not really specific to Holy Terror but the whole season. I agree with you 100% though that Sam hasn't done much all season except for going on random cases or being unconscious. I'm not even a Sam fan and this bothers me. They could have remedied that by making him follow clues to find out what is going on with him, why is he missing time, why does Dean sound strange sometimes. Instead they opted to lower his IQ like they did with the rest of the cast.
ReplyDeleteI think they are clearly trying to butch up both Dean and Cas because of the Destiel thing, which I found interesting. I was watching the ep where Dean was going to say yes to Michael, and I forgot how much chemestry they once had. I know Destiel bothers some people, so maybe that is why all the super hetero stuff lately.
ReplyDeleteYes, I miss Sam too but it is fun to see Jared tackle so many different characters.
ReplyDeleteI mostly agree with what you said, but Gripe #1 has a very simple explanation: the show isn't about Castiel. We only see the parts of Castiel's story that will impact Sam, Dean, and the overall storyline. How Castiel got his job, his suit, etc. are not important for the storyline. We do know that Dean gave Castiel the FBI badge.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in Gripe #2, Dean was already suspicious and annoyed with Gadriel. He wasn't mindlessly following him, but he didn't have other options. Sorry, Dean wasn't going to let Sam drop dead because an angel throwing a hissy fit told him to ditch Castiel. It would've been nice if the story gave him other options, but it didn't (I agree--better writers would've given Dean another option). He also didn't act like an abusive older brother who lost his stash of drugs and is crashing. He acted like someone who was in an emergency situation and didn't have time to deal with Kevin's usual hysterics.
Dean also had no reason to suspect that Gadriel was going to kill Kevin. Based on what Dean knew (Sam was possessed by angel that, so far, had not actually tried to hurt anyone) warning Kevin that Sam was possessed by an angel who lied about his identity would've put Kevin in more danger because Kevin isn't exactly subtle and probably would've tipped Gadriel off that they knew something was wrong. That would've given Gadriel a reason to harm him. As it was, based on the flashback, Gadriel may not have gone through with killing Kevin if he hadn't overheard Dean and Kevin talking. How exactly did Dean indirectly kill Kevin? By not warning him (which likely would have put Kevin in danger itself and probably would've sent Kevin into another breakdown, making him unable to do any research to help the situation)? By letting Gadriel try to trick Sam into letting him possess him? Gadriel made his own decision. That isn't Dean's fault, although I'm sure he will blame himself and the show will blame him enough that he'll be back in "guilty cheerleader" mode soon enough.
I think Gripe #3 is a direct response to the Destiel fans who keep asking the show to stop "queer baiting" and give a definite answer about whether or not it'll become canon.
I would add a few things:
-Bad dialogue throughout the episode.
-Bad pacing--the end was the only really interesting part of the episode
-The angel war is boring. None of the sides actually seem good so why should we care that they're killing each other off?
I dont have a problem with Jared playing other characters but it shouldn't be at the expense of Sam it should be in addition to Sam. The whole thing would have worked better if Sam had been suspicious from the get go, we should have heard and seen him trying to make sense of everything, he should have been questioning why Dean was acting so weird around him, there should have been a better build up to the mid season fall out on Sam's end. We went from him ready to die in the premier because of a lack of options to thinking theres always going to be something wrong with him in episode 8 to whatever happens in episode 10. They've spent a lot of time on the emotional build up of Dean's story but hardly any on Sam's and now Dean's reaction is to go dark for several episodes and Sam's? who knows.
ReplyDeleteeven though I am not a Dean fan at all I feel like Dean has had a really good storyline and build up to the dark Dean stuff this season and I dont think they have dumbed him down at all, I do feel like they've had Sam become totally irrelevant/without a POV/without a voice and not bothered to write for him at all just to service this Dean/Zeke storyline building to Dark Dean. I dont begrudge the Dean storyline but it shouldn't be at the expense of Sam's. Last year when Sam was doing the trials Dean still interacted with other characters, he still had a voice, he still was involved. Its a shame they cant be bothered to do the same for Sam when a Dean storyline takes center stage.
ReplyDeleteWant to solve the problem, dont want Dean to revolve around Sam anymore? simple kill Sam off, I'm sure I heard all the Dean fans rejoice when Gadreel said Sam was no more and Dean was finally released from his never ending burden. The show has proved that Sam isnt needed other than to service Dean's emotional storyline so now Dean is in his dark place and can stay there they dont need Sam to be alive for that.
ReplyDeleteI say let Sam complete the trials and close the gates to hell in one episode and let him have some peace, then Dean fans can enjoy the show without Dean seemingly revolving around Sam all the time.
Just wondering: are there "gripe reviews" for other shows or just SPN gets this very special treatment? Because I tried to search it and see only SPN episodes under the "gripe review" title. I read a lot of "reviews" for different shows, some of it good, some bad, but nothing is strictly pronounced as "gripe" to begin with. So I do have a problem with this hole "gripe" concept. And this is the only reason I am commenting in this topic (to prevent "don't like - don't read" line)
ReplyDeleteBut may be I just overlooked something and totally wrong.
I have to admit that I guess I am a Dean fan overall, but I miss Sam! It annoys me that he barely gets a storyline these days. If next year Dean gets a new side character to befriend and once again Sam gets nothing, I'm going to be pissed. As much as I like Dean. I love this show because of BOTH of them, and I want it to be about both of them.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of it, because there are problems, but sometimes I feel like everything but the kitchen sink is thrown into these reviews. I had some real problems with this episode and how it treated April, and the female angel, and I wish that had had more focus instead of all of this about how Dean supposedly never made stupid, risky moves regarding Sam before now.
ReplyDeletePresumably Dean dismantled that in season 8.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with that episode as an example is that the writing basically said Dean was wrong not to kill Nancy. That if he had, things would have been fine.
ReplyDeleteDean's generally put Sam above most others, even people he cares about. It's just that in the past the writing romanticized and deified this. This season, they haven't.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with what you said about April. To be honest I wish this had more focus, because it should have been just more than a "gripe." It was horrific. Instead it's on the same level as everything else, including things like yet another Heaven rewrite that is far less than most Heaven rewrites since the stupid Adam-as-Michael retcon in season 5.
ReplyDeleteI personally have no problem with critique. That what review is about. Its just kind of sad that SPN fandom invented new creature- "gripe review". So instead of having shades of gray it's painted black right from the title. "let's tack about how horrible this show is". Every week, every episode. Very sad and unfair.
ReplyDeleteSorry I have nothing to say about this griping itself. Didn't read.
Dean allowing Gadriel to possess Sam has caused the domino effect that then lead to Kevin's death and Sam being gone. Dean could not of forseen Metraton's visit to the angel possessing Sam and the tragic piece of paper that he handed to Gadriel but knew he was taking a gamble when he allowed Gadriel to possess Sam to begin with.
ReplyDeleteHe has earned rightfully praise for that but I think we have lost Sam in the process. The essence of Sam and the very presence of Sam not being there does show why he is so important because Supernatural is a cold empty place without him .
ReplyDeleteBy that logic Castiel is responsible for every death caused by Lucifer and the Leviathans because he let Sam out of the panic room and chose to open Purgatory to get the souls, taking the gamble that he was doing the right thing. He would also be more responsible for Kevin's death than Dean because he chose to listen to Metatron, leading to Gadriel being freed in the first place. That would make Jimmy Novak responsible for everyone Godstiel killed because he chose to allow Castiel to use his body as a vessel. That would make Sam responsible for those killed by Lucifer, too, because he chose to kill Lilith.
ReplyDeleteDean had no reason to believe that Gadriel would be a threat to Kevin. He took the risk and allowed Gadriel to trick Sam because if he didn't, Sam would die, and the show won't let that happen. He gave Gadriel limited trust based on the information he had. As soon as Dean had a definite reason to believe that Gadriel was up to no good, rather than just suspicion, he acted. Dean could not have foreseen that Gadriel would kill Kevin.
I don't doubt for a second Kevin would have done exactly what Dean did had it been the most important person in his life at risk, if his mom had been in Sam's shoes and He himself in Dean's I fully believe Kevin would have made the same decisions. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
ReplyDeleteEven Kevin was worried/suspicious about Dean, but Sam who supposedly knows him better that anyone else, was completely nonchalant! lol
ReplyDeleteI don't thinks so, it was kinda saying how you shouldn't disregard the means for the purpose. In the end Sam did what Ruby said, presumably for the higher good, and see what was the result.
ReplyDeleteNice review ;)
ReplyDelete1. I really wanted to see some of these transitions too, at the end of last Cas episode we saw his warrior side starting to reemerge. Guess they left the rest for our imagination.
2. YES! Of course Dean was always reckless when it came to his family, and yes, he was way smarter until S8, but it's not my gripe here. This whole plot twist of lying about identity is my problem. Dean, and we all, never thought it was possible for an angel to lie about his name. It's one of those new push-through twists for the sake of plot. Now anyone would say why Dean didn't confirm Zeke's identity before! This mess could have been avoided! But in fact angel lore here never suggested that, it never seemed necessary. Well Dean, look out for fake IDs from now on!
3. I'm really ashamed here, but I never thought about that poor girl.
4. ... Let's just forget about any mythology stated explicitly or implicitly in Supernatural, they may be voided by next episode!
5. Gadreel never wanted to kill, he was kinda forced to kill Kevin, so of course he wouldn't hurt Dean just for the sake of it. But I'm not sure about Metatron. Maybe Dean is the next name in his list, but overall I think killing Kevin was just for the sake of drama; He couldn't do anything about the tablets, he was no threat, he was just living his semi-MOL life.
- Yeah! Cas was always a little dumb about these things compared to other angels. I think it's because he tries too much to study humans, their psych, feelings, inventions and actions, that's why he'd get confused and do silly things. When he's nonchalant and doesn't try to figure out a human thing, he's pretty much like other angels.
- I really hope not, enough with hurt!Sam and especially 'what's wrong with Sam?' already.
I don't think the intention of the review is to say everything on the show is horrible, but I do think there should be more of a complex view in the critique. Saying, "I don't like Dean acting this way," should not be on the same level as a woman being raped and killed.
ReplyDeleteGripe # 1: I agree with you 100%. The story isn't about Castiel. We mostly see the parts that intertwine with the Winchester story or that further the main arc of the season. Of course he gets more screen-time now since he's a regular, and we get episodes about him chewing toothpaste and singing babies to sleep but on the grand scale, Supernatural is not his story. I don't really care how he moved from Gas N Sip to "Agent". He obviously earned some money, bought a suit, tracked down a case and used his fake FBI badge. Good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteGripe #2: I never got the impression that Dean was following Zeke!Gadreel blindly. He was never thrilled with the situation and he simply did what he had to do under desperate circumstances. This is Dean Winchester we're talking about. Faced with : either you drop Castiel or I vacate your brother's body and essentially kill him, it's not surprising that he chose to accommodate Not!Zeke's wishes every time. What part of "there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you (Sam)" do people not understand. This is quintessential Dean.
I also agree that Dean didn't have time to clue Kevin in. Now I love me some Kevin. I cried like a baby when he died and it's a mess that this whole unfortunate situation led to his death (and no more Osric on my screen) but there was just no time to explain. Not to mention, Dean didn't have any reason to suspect that faux!Zeke would hurt anyone. Zedreel's m.o. when he doesn't get what he wants was usually blackmail, not violence.
Gripe #3: I'm in violent agreement with you there. Militant Destiel shippers brought this on themselves in my opinion. Show always gives nods to slash shippers of all persuasion ("look at them, they're like an old married couple", "why did you have to use tongue", wink wink, nudge nudge). Extreme Destiel shippers took it to another level and demanded things that were never on the menu and some were incredibly rude, dramatic and entitled about it. There you have it, something most of us have know since the beginning. Dean Winchester is into women and his relationship with Castiel is platonic. The comments about April were tasteless but to me, they sounded like a deliberate message to those who constantly bring up Destiel and Dean's supposed bi-sexuality during conventions and raise hell on twitter over their ship. Now maybe we can all move the hell on and enjoy the show. I wish...
Everyone did what Dean wanted. Everyone died. Ruby shamed Dean for his choice. As always, any message the show had was muddied. I'm not really sure how watching Jus in Bello would have made this better. At least this is actually Dean's choice, and mistake, instead of the blame being passed to Ruby or Lilith or what have you.
ReplyDeleteWhy would Dean fans rejoice when Gadreel said Sam was no more? You do realize that Dean fans =/= Sam haters right? Dean fans are not a monolith and plenty of us are in it for the brothers, which include Sam.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Dean fan. l have zero interest in a show that doesn't have Sam in it. Supernatural is about Sam AND Dean. They're a package deal and I for one, love it!
"Dean, and we all, never thought it was possible for an angel to lie about his name. It's one of those new push-through twists for the sake of plot. Now anyone would say why Dean didn't confirm Zeke's identity before! This mess could have been avoided! But in fact angel lore here never suggested that, it never seemed necessary. Well Dean, look out for fake IDs from now on!"
ReplyDeleteGabriel lied about his name.
There was little way for Dean to confirm Ezekiel's identity. He doesn't trust angels and he doesn't trust what they'd say to him. He trusted Cas, and Cas told him who Ezekiel was. He jumped into a risky decision to save Sam because Sam would have died otherwise.
"Maybe Dean is the next name in his list, but overall I think killing Kevin was just for the sake of drama; He couldn't do anything about the tablets, he was no threat, he was just living his semi-MOL life."
Kevin was a prophet and likely would have translated the tablets eventually.
I agree it was about shock value, but it also makes sense.
Metatron's a lunatic, but he tends to have certain plans and schemes. He doesn't go around killing at random. If he did he would have killed Cas last season. I don't think he had any real interest in Dean dying. I'm not even sure how much he'll have in Gadriel now that he got this out of the way.
thats what a domino affect is the whole show is a series of them
ReplyDeletethese writers huh?
ReplyDeleteAnd since we know that Ruby was working for Lilith all along, we know it was a lost battle either way. The whole thing was a plan to make Sam trust Ruby as an ally. Ruby wanted to kill the virgin so the demons wouldn't go tell Lilith or what not. But she was Lilith's biggest fun, so you know those people were dead one way or the other. It was a nod to how Sam would later sacrifice an innocent girl to kill Lilith and ended up kick-starting the Apocalypse.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, everyone had their own Interpretation. To me it seemed how Ruby was getting successful in manipulating Sam, and how Sam had started his way toward doom. Dean's decision was right, it had an unfortunate end but it was right. And there's no guaranty if things would've ended perfect if they'd gone with Ruby's plan. Just my idea.
ReplyDeleteto me it was the fist sign of how far Sam would go for Dean, dont forget he wanted to kill Lilith in JIB so that Dean's contract would be voided as Lilith held Dean's contract
ReplyDeleteI think you're missing the point of the post. It's not what Dean did, it's what he didn't. He could have taken one minute to tell Kevin to go to his room and put protection up, to not leave until Dean gave him a signal or to leave the bunker and stay away until, again, Dean came for him. He knew they were dealing with a dangerous angel and couldn't bother to give the guy a simple heads-up.
ReplyDeleteYes, Gabriel, but see, his case seemed different. For starter he was way powerful that could hide his nature. He had taken a trickster persona and tricked everyone. He was an enigma nobody would trust. Also he didn't assume another angel's identity. But here..., I know apparently others have no problem with it, but to me it seemed really cheap!
ReplyDeleteIn fact I don't even think they should have expended their time on those tablets, they're not reliable. I agree, Metatron is a real schemer. I hope to see his reason in now killing Kevin. If Kevin was a threat, Metatron would've killed him while he could in S8. Now Kevin really couldn't do more on tablets. Also this Gadreel situation was a real fluke, it was sheer luck to have someone in the bunker to do his order. What was he going to do otherwise? Waiting up for the opportunity to come to have Kevin out?! I still thinks it was mostly for the element of drama and shock.
I agree with all of this.
ReplyDeleteDean acting like his "pants are on fire" every time Sam is hurt is the basis of the show. It's the motivation behind every catastrophic decision Dean has ever made, that has pushed the story forward. I sense in some parts of fandom a certain frustration that Castiel is the one being sacrificed at the altar of "Sammy comes first" because it leaves a bad taste in their mouth for obvious reasons.
Truth is, Dean always throws caution and logic to the wind when Sam is dangling from a cliff. Everything and everyone else becomes collateral damage. Now I get how this can become annoying to those who wish Dean cared about himself and other people as much as he cares about Sam but that is a character that simply does not exsist.
I'm also not surprised that Castiel waited so long to snatch another angel's grace.
For all his mistakes, Castiel always tries to be good and to act with integrity (when he has his wits about him, Godstiel doesn't count, he was high on souls). Stealing an angel's grace is probably as wrong as stealing another human''s soul and Castiel had to hit rock bottom before he even entertained the idea. He feels responsible for what's happening to the angels. He tried to live the quiet life. It's just not for him. He's a soldier of the Lord. A war is raging and he has to find a way to be useful and fight. He did what he had to do under desperate circumstances. His choice makes sense to me, just like Dean does.
And again, I'm also not surprised that Gadreel didn't kill Dean for a couple of reasons.
1. Maybe he was faking it (I don't think he was) but I always got the sense that Gadreel liked and respected Dean.
2. Bad guys not killing Dean is a recurring theme that was explored in S6
'The Man Who Would Be King' when Crowley said this words about the Winchesters:
"Don't worry about -- what, like Lucifer didn't worry? Or Michael? Or Lilith or Alastair or Azazel didn't worry?! Am I the only game piece on the board who doesn't underestimate those denim-wrapped nightmares?!"
It's become a running joke. Don't kill Dean Winchester so he can stay alive to kill you lol.
3.No but seriously, I think the reason Metatron didn't put a hit on Dean (yet), is because he's a master manipulator who deals in subtlety.
Gadreel was already not hot on the idea of killing anyone. The prophet was a pressing issue because he's the only one (or so Metatron thinks) who can read the tablets and find a way to reverse the spell. He's dangerous to the mission because of his god-given skills, and killing him then becomes justified. Asking Gadreel to kill Dean ALSO might have sent some alarm bells ringing. Let's not forget that Gadreel has this complex about being thought of as a bad angel. He believes he's good. He might have a hard time killing
more humans than necessary, especially humans he's grown close to. Metatron needs Gadreel to remain and cooperative and he knows not to push too far. For now.
Yeah! I got what you mean. Warning Kevin wouldn't endanger Sam anyway. Maybe Dean thought he had everything under control and didn't want o worry Kevin. But I guess it was mainly a set-up for the story to roll and we have our big mid-season drama. Because strangely enough, Kevin who was always in some God-knows-where room/motel holed up, was around bunker, eating, sleeping and reading.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, but I tend to think - what did Dean take away from what happened? Likely the idea that all his belief in humanity and protecting humanity was pointless. I think he's had to fight hard to keep himself from becoming unfeeling and going to a darker, more manipulative place. This season he's often lost that battle.
ReplyDeleteI understand that, but the thing is, I think episodes like that ultimately these types of choices of what is the greater good hollow Dean out when they are rendered pointless, which is what happened there.
ReplyDeleteI think Dean was just trying to keep everyone in the dark because he assumed if he could, he could control them more, and in his mind, protect them more. He didn't seem to have any idea Kevin was in danger.
ReplyDeleteIt is possible that Dean didn't tell Kevin about all of this because he is ashamed. We know Dean does not feel good about helping Gad possess Sam. If he had told Kevin to go hide in his room with angel sigils after telling him he wanted him to find a way to let a person take control of his body while possessed by an angel, at some point Kevin was going to ask why, or put 2 and 2 together. Dean thought he was in control and may not have been able to deal with Kevin finding out what was going on with Sam and his part in it until after the situation was fixed.
ReplyDeleteI believe some posters submit ideas to Spoiler TV for a column. Some Supernatural fans have been expressing real unhappiness with characterization and continuity for the last two seasons. We are a passionate lot and it is hard on people who have no problems with the writing to have the people being critical of things that they consider unimportant. So this thread was created so that those who are unhappy can say what they think and those who aren't unhappy don't have it showing up in the middle of other discussions where they feel it doesn't belong. No other fandom has started this, but I don't know if it is because those fans aren't as involved, so if things start turning the way they don't like they just move on. It could also be the simple fact that we have been on for 9 seasons just give us more canon to be ignored and twisted. Finally, seeing this fans of other shows that are having issues may start gripe threads about that show. Basically, every type of thread was new and different once upon a time.
ReplyDeleteI agree it was cheap, but I think it shows that Gadriel really has no identity of his own. He was told he was evil and horrible. He got a second chance, unexpectedly, after an eternity in prison. He decided to take a new name, and identity.
ReplyDeleteI think Metatron didn't kill him in season 8 because he wanted everyone to trust him. He needed Cas to trust him most of all. Now he's moved on to a new plan, one that Kevin, in time, likely would have broken.
Or killing a prophet is ingredient one in a new spell, finding and killing God, for instance, so that when Metatron becomes X God can't mosey on back and retake control? Or maybe a way to brainwash angels into looking to him as rightfully in charge? I think Metatron may be a long term planner and really power hungry.
ReplyDeletewe been getting this for 3 years now it nothing new I am tired of it to but it sad to say but it will never change it will all way be and this is hard to say the Dean show and as a Sam fan to that really hurts I should have stop watching after Season 7 was bad but it is Jared that I keep staying a Watching and nothing else I am pissed of what they did to him last season and now But Damn I just want to see Jared that's it.
ReplyDeleteThat's true. Hadn't thought of that. I think Metatron also based a lot on just wanting revenge, but when he realized revenge wasn't enough, he wanted to build his own Heaven, his plans changed.
ReplyDeleteI kind of get were Tvmonkey is going but its hard for a Sam fan like me to see him go thought this Crap every year and its hard for me to say kill him off too and have him at peace but you can not and will not have one without the other this show is about the brothers that's It plan and simple they need to be together but there been time were I think Dean has gone to far to let Sam live and this one is it to me.
ReplyDelete"Blow me, Cas." "Last time someone looked at me like that I got laid" "Dean and I have a profound bond" Come on, the show created Destiel, not the viewers. All that close standing and eye fu*king! Please! Carver has even directed Misha to act "like a dumped lover" when Dean showed up at the Gas N Sip. You can't seriously think slashers came up with Destiel out of nowhere.
ReplyDeleteI completely understand that different viewers would have different perspectives on Sam's storyline. You're certainly not alone in thinking Dean has gone too far. I think he did exactly what he had to do to save his brother's life and I love him for it. It was a gamble. He took a chance, he lost (so far) but to me, sitting on his thumbs doing nothing (à la out-of-character Sam in S8) would have been the bigger crime ("Oh hai, my brother's dying? Well too bad. Moving on!" Screw that noise lol).
ReplyDeleteI was responding to the sweeping generalization that Dean fans want Sam off the show which is simply not true. If someone wants Sam to be put out of his misery on a personal level, it's their opinion but I won't let anybody imply that all Dean fans are Sam haters who resent his presence on the show. A lot of us believe that the show is about the brothers and we watch for BOTH of them. Sam isn't going anywhere and that's how it should be. It's his show too dammit! ;D
Agree. I was curious of what was to be said negatively because it was a excellent episode and I thought it would be hard to point out the bad but-no. I think its ok to talk about what improvements there could of been but at the end of the day if some-one likes a show why point out all the bad? and I kept on saying this why is there no positive review?! and why is SPN the only gripe?. I'm not going to bother about this anymore, its not nice reading material for a show that I love.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to give a gripe more weight than the others. I thought the fact that it was a minute long dialogue yet made the list alongside Dean trusting Gadreel and the angel mythology going belly up was enough. Some people don't even agree with this view that it's objectification of a dead woman and therefore wrong. They think it's all in good fun and had I put more emphasis on it (which in my opinion it does deserve) they might have accused me of being a bitter feminist or a butthurt shipper.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you mean, but, since you said you were writing a separate article about season 9, including Cas not knowing how to plug in a TV (?), I think the matter would have been best served in that type of article. I think when it's put in the same category as the latest argument over what is or isn't canon, it undercuts the disgusting nature of the scene.
ReplyDeleteRight. Nothing Dean is doing this season is new. I also don't really believe past history made all kinds of efforts to show that Dean put others before Sam. He rarely has. And when he agreed to Sam's desire to pay the ultimate price (his life) to atone for starting the Apocalypse, this ended terribly (Sam came back in a way that led to years of trauma and guilt, Raphael and Cas fought in a war that caused more pain and destruction and ultimately killed Bobby, Cas lost his life, and his sanity, over and over). Dean had tried to let Sam do what he wanted, but he was pretty much all alone at the end of season 8, and Sam was, once again, about to die.
ReplyDeleteThis season, all Dean really wanted was to have everyone in his life, and instead he's lost them all, in one way or another. He's alone, which is what he's always feared the most.
If this doesn't go anywhere, it's a huge writing disappointment, but this isn't just about "oh Dean is so dumb, they're making Dean dumb!"
This is taking what the writing has done for many years and finally putting a face and a name on it.
Just wondering: are there "gripe reviews" for other shows.
ReplyDeleteThere aren't, because I invented the concept.
The reason behind it was because when I took on the task of reviewing Supernatural episodes I realized most of what I thought of as "good" was getting attention all over the web with people praising the writers for different reasons, especially fans who messaged them on twitter. Every episode was met with a flood of "We love you"s and "That was awesome." The criticism nearly always gets drowned in that flood.
When fans who were unhappy with certain parts of the show (and you could see from the response to these reviews they aren't just a hand full) spoke up in forums and message boards they nearly always got assaulted by other fans for being negative and 'haters' and told to stop watching the show. I created this space to give those fans a platform to speak up. Anyone who doesn't like the idea of gripes can simply skip this review. Those who don't like negativity can't fault me for writing it here and making them upset because it says right in the title, it's a gripe review. Fans who do like the idea and don't want to talk about their problems with the show on message boards and upset people there could use this space as their megaphone and be secure that all the attacks will be directed at me, the author of the article.
"I also don't really believe past history made all kinds of efforts to show that Dean put others before Sam."
ReplyDeleteTo me Dean's words in the church sum up his whole philosophy. Nothing comes before Sam. Agree to disagree on this one :)
But why does everything have to be so black and white?
ReplyDeleteThe show isn't about Castiel so he shouldn't have a meaningful story, when he's there nearly half the time and had at least two episodes revolve completely around him, while the other two heavily featured him? And how does showing him sing to a baby or do store inventory make the show more about Sam and Dean? I would've agreed with you if the show didn't show him that much and the complaint was why we aren't seeing his story (like season 6.) But that's not the case. He's there and taking up show's time, he's just doing irrelevant things that irritates his fans and haters alike.
And as far as "they're doing #3 to spite Destiel fans " all I can do is shake my head. So our only options were either Dean and Cas bang each other or act like total misogynistic douchebag cavemen? Good to know Carver and co aren't homophobic. They just seem to have a very strange idea about what heterosexuality really is like.
Seems my original reply disappeared... So I was saying:
ReplyDelete"I also don't really believe past history made all kinds of efforts to show that Dean put others before Sam."
I feel that Dean's words in the church in 'Sacrifice' sum up his philosophy of nothing comes before Sam. Agree to disagree on this one :)
As I always say when this subject comes up, I have never gotten any hidden subtext from any Dean/Castiel scene. This eye sex to which you refer . . . . I've NEVER seen it. The lines you quoted above are just snide comments from an upset Dean. I never thought Dean was actually asking Castiel to perform oral sex on him or to have sex w/him. Haha!
ReplyDeleteI've never gotten a romantic and/or sexual vibe from ANY of their scenes. So, I don't think you can say the show created "Destiel." I heard about "Destiel" through the fandom. I learned about "Wincest" through the fandom. Those are fandom created ships, IMO.
Castiel is responsible for that. If he hadn't let Sam out of the panic room, Sam wouldn't have killed Lilith, and the Apocalypse wouldn't have started. Sam killed Lilith thinking that would PREVENT the Apocalypse, not START it, and Castiel knew that.
ReplyDeleteAnd Castiel is definitely responsible for every Leviathan death b/c he was the one who unleashed them upon the world.
"And how does showing him sing to a baby or do store inventory make the show more about Sam and Dean?"
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I really understand the question The show is about Sam and Dean no matter how many solo(ish) episodes Bobby, Charlie, Garth or Castiel get.
The show being about Sam and Dean isn't about personal feelings. It's about what's been stated countless times by the show's creator, producers and writers. The fact that the story revolves around the Winchesters does not mean however that no one else can get any screen time.
It just means that no one else's story will get as much exploration and that's just fine. Only the guys on the cover of the DVDs aka the co-leads get that kind of treatment.
This is actually an interesting opinion that I also thought about. But considering how forcefully Dean was pushing Kevin around without telling him anything, it's not a stretch to say he could've told him to go to a safe place and ward himself before working on the spell. Sure Kevin would've fussed and fumed, but he already did that when he was told to find the spell, and this time people wouldn't have blamed Dean for being mean to him because it would've been for his own safety.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . this show is just not as good as it used to be. It would have been so much better to thread Sam's growing suspicion, uncertainty, and doubt throughout the first 9 episodes rather than saving it all for the end of the 9x08. I'm not sure why the writers tend to neglect/ignore Sam's POV, but that's just what they seem to do each year.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we're disagreeing, if you mean that Dean usually puts Sam first.
ReplyDeleteI will definitely mention the vulgarity that is attached to the sexuality of the characters this season in that review, along with the speculations people have about why it is happening (read: No Homo.) It has occurred too many times in such a short run of the show to be limited to just this review. Rest assured it will get the attention it deserves.
ReplyDeleteSorry I just noticed I didn't respond to the second part of your comment.
ReplyDeleteI agree the April jokes were tasteless like a lot of things on this show. I love it like Dean loves pie but it has its issues.
It's just very obvious that they're making a point The show loves to play with its homoerotic subtext because a lot of fans eat it up. They make playful nods about a lot of ships. Extreme Destiel shippers for some reasons didn't get the joke and the endless petitioning, disruptive behavior at cons and all around nastiness on twitter had to be stopped. Jokes about April weren't the way to go but I don't write the episodes.
Oh okay lol. Sorry I got confused somewhere :)
ReplyDeleteOh, I couldn't agree more w/you. It would have been much better if the show had dropped hints throughout the first 8 episodes that Sam was concerned about his memory gaps, suspicious of Dean's word, uncertain about his health, etc. It would have been a better build up to the 9x08 declaration and even the 9x09 chat in the Impala. That shouldn't have been the first time we heard that Sam has been missing huge gaps of time. Come on!
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of the storytelling of Sam's Wall fallout. There was an occasional hand rub every so often until the writers were ready to conclude that plot. Now,I know some said MP was not available to be Lucifer as much as they wanted, but why were the hallucinations limited to Lucifer. There are several horrible things I can think of off the top of my mind for Sam to hallucinate that have nothing to do w/Lucifer.
It's lazy, bad storytelling, IMO.
I agree w/those who think this is a clear response to the Destiel fandom. The show wants to make it clear that Dean and Castiel are heterosexual guys who have no sexual or romantic interest in each other.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the narrative of this is that we should give Dean some blame. He didn't make this decision out of stupidity, he did so out of fear and control issues. Ideally, Kevin's death will help him realize the danger of some of this behavior, behavior that in the past, the narrative has rewarded (ie, if only Sam and Cas had always listened to Dean, they would have been fine).
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was that. It was just bad writing. They wanted Kevin dead, so Dean didn't warn him.
ReplyDeleteRemember in S7 when on a couple of occasions, Dean just stood around w/a gun in his hand doing nothing while Sam saved the day? Did that make any sense at all? No, but the show wanted Sam doing those killings, not Dean so Dean was rendered stupid. Just like a 12-year old Sam couldn't read the sign right outside the boys' home and was completely clueless and moronic!
I don't really think it has anything to do with Destiel. Dean's dialogue was supposed to go to Sam, not Dean. Jared and Jensen felt it was OOC for Sam. This is about Bruckner and Ross-Lemming having sexist writing for characters.
ReplyDeleteIf they wanted to stop Destiel they would just have them barely speak, as the show did in season 6. They also wouldn't have scenes where Cas flirts with Dean and Dean checks him out.
I think that's giving Bruckner and Ross-Lemming too much credit. They write this for all their male characters. Kevin leered at a witch's rear end last season. Sam leered at and slobbered over Portia last season, and was supposed to be the one who was making sexual comments about April in this episode.
ReplyDeleteIf they wanted to write this as straight straight straight Cas and Dean, then Misha played those scenes in a very strange way.
"But I guess it was mainly a set-up for the story to roll and we have our big mid-season drama. Because strangely enough, Kevin who was always in some God-knows-where room/motel holed up, was around bunker, eating, sleeping and reading."
ReplyDeleteDing, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!
They wanted Kevin dead, so it didn't matter if Dean had to behave OOC in order for it to happen. There is no reason why Dean couldn't have told Kevin to leave the bunker or to put up an angel ward and hide himself somewhere. It was just bad writing.
The point of the question is this: When they are already giving Castiel a solo episode, and spending the show's time on him, why not show parts of his story that matters, and ties him to the main plot, instead of nonsense even his fans don't care about?
ReplyDeleteWe have our differences about what the show is about. You think it's only about the brothers, I think it hasn't been that way since four seasons ago. This season one can argue Castiel has had more to do with the main plot than Sam and Dean (which doesn't mean good writing for Castiel, just bad writing for Sam and Dean.)
Still "what the show is about" has nothing to do with the boring way they are telling Castiel's story. I can't imagine those who don't like him care to watch him work a cash register or go on mistaken dates. This way however, even those who do like him don't get anything out of watching him on screen. Basically everyone's time is wasted.
Yeah . . . the writers clearly want to set up a situation where Dean lets Sam die. The anvils just keep dropping. There may as well be a subliminal message playing throughout each episode that Dean needs to let Sam go and let Sam die.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming that is where the finale is headed. Sam dies . . . hopefully doing something to save Dean (or the world) that actually works out right for once, and Dean letting him go. Fun times!
I appreciate that. May I also ask that you consider pointing out that not everything called "no homo" this season has been the same, and that claiming it is just takes away from the vileness of some of the dialogue and situations, and erases problematic material that had nothing to do with Dean or Cas?
ReplyDeleteI hear people say that any time Dean is with a woman this season, had a past with a woman, or mentions porn, even when Abaddon basically told him she would use him to murder children, it is some sort of "no homo." Cas with Nora was "no homo," even though he only agreed to a date with her when he thought that's what she wanted, and he showed little to no attraction toward her. Bruckner and Ross-Lemming and Jenny Klein wrote some very, very anti-female, misogynist material this season, and they have written it in previous seasons not involving Dean or Cas, but all of this is wrapped up in some blanket generalization of "no homo."
When people look at this episode and say, essentially, "Sam was going to talk about how hot it was that Cas and April were raped...that means the show is saying 'no homo!' and they are desperate to make us see how straight Dean and Cas are!" then I feel like the point is sailing very far over their heads.
Why do you always have to make these comments? I'm a Dean fan, and I certainly don't want Sam to die. And to many fans, it's the opposite: There's no reason for Dean to be there because all the storylines revolve around Sam.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but you NEVER have anything positive to say about Dean EVER. And I'm so tired of you putting down Dean fans, most of whom are Sam fans as well. I don't know of ANY Dean fan who doesn't want SPN to be about BOTH brothers, together.
I really enjoyed watching him working a cash register and thinking he was supposed to go on a date. It was an example of Cas trying to be a human, trying to find his identity, and realizing he couldn't hide.
ReplyDeleteI vastly preferred this to - comic relief Cas, Cas being duped by various evildoers, Cas being the burden of the Winchesters, Cas being brainwashed, Cas being forced to kill people, Cas on some offcamera quest that never has an end.
The episode actually did a lot to remind me why I love Cas as a character. For the first time in several years.
Yes, I agree with this, thank you.
ReplyDeleteI have never seen a scene where Cas flirts with Dean or one where Dean checks out Cas. I'm being dead serious.
ReplyDeleteThe comments about April being hot were indeed tasteless. I got the feeling that the writers were trying to hammer it over the Destiel shipper's heads, once and for all, that they are wrong in their perceptions that Dean is bi and in love with Cas. Then again, they just had Dean in the previous episode sleazily set out to screw a woman who was trying hard to stay chaste, so there you go.
ReplyDeleteThey are seeming to dumb down both Dean and Sam this season. And I agree that Dean went way too far in saving Sam this time.
You think?
ReplyDeleteThis is when I know things are subjective, esp. when it comes to Destiel. How did Misha play those strangely to you? I didn't find anything odd about that scene.
If they wanted to show that Dean wasn't in love with Cas, they wouldn't have had an episode where he stared longingly at Cas through a window.
ReplyDeleteThe lines Dean said in this episode were supposed to go to Sam, not Dean. Jensen and Jared changed them because they felt it was OOC for Sam.
I would've somehow gotten behind this writing if I believed that was their intention, i.e. to show how dangerous it is for him to be so reckless when it comes to Sam. But I doubt that's the character development we're going to get here because, as I said in the review, that's how the current writers of the show seem to see the brotherly bond, which they consider the heart of the show. It's all about Dean steamrolling over everyone and everything for Sam. Meanwhile no one knows how Sam feels about it because, as many Sam fans pointed out in these comments, the show barely gives Sam a voice.
ReplyDeleteIt would be a cold day in hell before the writers decide to question this construct and bring Dean's actions under question from the codependency angle. What I suspect will happen is a roasting ala Castiel in season 6. A lot of blame will be leveled on Dean, a lot of mud will be thrown, but it would be all in the form of 'you were selfish and wrong' without getting any farther than that or any closer to 'is this the right way to love someone?' or 'should Dean change his ways?' I just don't see these writers tackle a psychological issue as deep as Dean's fixation on Sam or all the many facets of their codependency.
And many other fans feel exactly the opposite; that the whole storyline revolves around Sam, and that Dean has no story of his own. Plus this arc gives Jared once again, the best acting showcases for which he's getting many accolades which should make any Sam fan happy.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel that Sam will be trashed for being angry at Dean, because many Dean fans, including myself, feel that what Dean did, while meaning the best, was very wrong. Sam will have every right to be angry.
You should be happy with this storyline since you hate Dean so much. He has been completely destroyed by these writers in a way he can never atone for, unlike Sam, who was able to jump into the cage with Michael and Lucifer and save the world from the Apocalypse to atone for freeing Lucifer. Dean on the other hand, is permanently tainted.
Again, totally disagree with this. Many fans feel it has been the Sam show forever with Dean playing support/sidekick. I guess as a Dean fan I should have never watched SPN at all because to me and MANY others, Dean, not Sam, has been thrown to the backburner.
ReplyDeleteBut unlike you two, who hate Dean so much, most Dean fans still love Sam as well. We don't want the whole show to be all about Dean ( fat chance of that). It's a shame you two want the whole show to be only about Sam.
If they wanted Kevin dead they could have just had him decide to leave the bunker and get killed. Kevin's death wasn't about him, it was about Dean's choices.
ReplyDelete"It would be a cold day in hell before the writers decide to question this construct and bring Dean's actions under question from the codependency angle."
ReplyDeleteBut isn't that what they're doing if, as you say, they will throw mud at Dean for his decisions?
In the past, the show has almost always painted hearts and flowers over Dean's decision to sacrifice everything for Sam. This is one of the first times, aside from a little of season 3, that they've actually said, "This is wrong, and it's going to lead to something terrible."
Much of the first half of the season was about Dean believing he had to put Sam first, and everyone paying the price as a result. I don't think this was done as some reward for the love of Dean and Sam. I've seen the show do that (season 2, season 5) and I don't feel it this time. If we come back from hiatus and get that then we'll see, but the few spoilers available suggest otherwise.
I know. I believe you. But they could do scenes in a way where no one would see that. Instead they have ambiguous scenes and performances. If you are determined to have a "bro" reading of a relationship, you don't have one man staring longingly through the window.
ReplyDeleteHis body language. The way he looked around. Clinking his bottle against Dean's. Some fans even thought he was flirting with Sam.
ReplyDeleteWhatever he was doing in those scenes I didn't feel like it was acted as hetero Cas.
They do have a huge problem writing for women. But the window staring scene was way before the big Twitter fiasco a couple of months ago. I guess they didn't realize that they were fanning flames of slash.
ReplyDeleteSo, to me, it looks as if they are now going out of their way to make sure we know that there is no Destiel.
Myself, I never cared whether or not it happened. I could take it or leave it.
Those words would have sounded strange coming from Sam though. He's just never been a sleazy horndog type, that's Dean. Or it used to be Dean, then he seemed to mature a little, now they're painting him as a horndog again. I can only think it's because they are trying to discourage the idea the Dean is bi or secretly in love with Cas.
The window staring scene was written and filmed not that long before this episode. It was supposed to be episode 7.
ReplyDeleteI think they just have a real problem with how to write the guys with women. Last season, when they wrote for Dean in that dog episode, he was drooling over Portia when he told him this made her uncomfortable. (Sam did this too) This was around the time that other episodes were pointedly saying Dean was no longer treating women like meat (for example, his kindness toward Ellie, the woman who'd sold her soul to Crowley and was throwing herself at Dean). I just chalk it up to this writing team being sexist and seeing Dean, Sam, and Cas as pigs.
It WOULD have been OOC for Sam to comment on April.
ReplyDeleteWhat window staring scene are you guys talking about?
ReplyDeleteBruckner and Ross-Lemming and Jenny Klein wrote some very, very anti-female, misogynist material this season, and they have written it in previous seasons not involving Dean or Cas, but all of this is wrapped up in some blanket generalization of "no homo."
ReplyDeleteThat's a very good point. I'll make sure I'll mention it. Personally I don't think the tasteless sexual material is a backlash against the Destiel fans. I think they simply don't know how to show this side of the characters, and for some reason feel they need to prove the characters are thinking and engaging in sex, even though (or perhaps because) we don't see much of it on screen. Maybe they think the characters would be less manly if they don't talk about how much they lust after women at least once every episode. Maybe they want to make up for the lack of action or romance on screen. Whatever the reason, it's not working and is definitely sending the wrong message.
I kept on saying this why is there no positive review?!
ReplyDeleteThere is. There are two other reviews on this site discussing every Supernatural episode in all living colors. Mine is the only black one.
I didn't add a 'praise' or 'positive' part to the end of this review because I've already put it at the beginning where I said I mostly enjoyed the episode because it was fast paced and dealt with the mythology.
I'm not going to bother about this anymore, its not nice reading material for a show that I love.
That's the idea. And I'm not saying "don't like, don't read." More like this is for people who have issues with an episode and want a place to vent. Or alternatively, people who read about the issues all over the net, don't agree with them, and look for a place to voice their disagreement without having to reply to a dozen tweets, tumblr posts and message board comments. We see examples of both here.
I like Castiel, but I can also take or leave him. As someone who is indifferent to Cas, I can definitely say I agree that the writers need to give Cas something interesting to do when he is shown. His "human" story was horrible, but then not much thought was put into to.
ReplyDeleteI think the writers get somewhat of a free reign in certain areas, because no one in power has enough interest in speaking out against misogyny (I think the only time anyone said anything that changed writing was Sera Gamble about Ruby's vessel in season 4). And the show may just see this as "shipping", which annoys me, because I ship Dean and Cas but I would support them with women, if the writing was good enough. Instead, April and Suzy were treated like trash.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a certain frat boy mentality in some of the writing, perhaps because they think this is what guys do, or they think this is what viewers want the guys to be. And there are fans who wanted to see Dean hook up, and I know some loved the hookup with Suzy, but I just thought it could have been handled about 500 times better.
Heaven Can't Wait. After Cas calls Dean and Dean heads off to see him, he watches Cas through the shop window.
ReplyDeleteI miss Sam a lot too. I do think we will be getting a lot more of him soon.
ReplyDeleteDo you mean where Cas was working in the store? Because I don't remember this. I only remember in season 8 when Dean saw him everywhere before he turned up again.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they see Sam that way.
ReplyDeleteI agree. It should have been built up to more. I think one of the problems is Sam's previous illness stories were all about how nobly he fought to survive. This one, he's been in the dark. Once he finds out, we'll likely see more of what he's feeling. I just wish we'd seen a little more of him being happy, to build up to the tragedy. We only got a few glimpses.
ReplyDeleteYes. Dean was watching Cas through the window.
ReplyDeleteI think that writing team sees all the guys as pigs.
You mean the scene where Dean first arrived at the Gas N Sip? You thought that scene was sexual/romantic in nature? Wow. I didn't get that vibe at all.
ReplyDeleteI barely remember the scene, but I thought it was shot to show us (and Dean) what Cas was doing inside. I also think Dean was nervous about going inside b/c he had just unceremoniously kicked Cas out of the bunker and was going to be seeing him for the first time. For all Dean knew, Cas was going to be angry w/him or wouldn't want to see him.
I honestly thought nothing of that short scene, esp. in terms of romance or longing on Dean's part.
Yeah . . . I didn't like the way Sam's problems in S7 played out either. It was very similar to this actually. Nothing for several episodes (i.e., no slow build of tension, etc) and then it all resolves itself in 1-2 episodes.
ReplyDeleteI swear Sam hasn't been happy since S1? When was the last time he smiled? With the clowns in S7? And before that? Maybe S4?
Sam is the most unhappy character on any show I watch! His suicidal plot won't be a hard sell. His life sucks, and he's miserable all the time.
I disagree. I see no point to this storyline if Dean doesn't learn the "lesson" that he needs to let go of Sam.
ReplyDeleteCarver has been talking that up since he came onboard as the showrunner.
That’s why I believe the series will likely end in Sam’s death. Carver believes
it is more mature for Dean to accept Sam’s death than anything else, so I’m sure that’s where he will lead Dean. The show has also set up Sam’s desire to die and be done with life (which we will also see in this suicidal plot if it is given any attn.), so he will probably do one last heroic act for mankind . . . one that does NOT go wrong in the end, and Dean will accept his death.
I don’t see Dean hunting after Sam dies. He will leave the life, get a job he
actually enjoys, and make a family w/a nice woman. If they want to end on a
lighter note, we could see Sam as an “angel” watching over his brother and his brother’s family.
Carver wants to break down and annihilate the one thing
that made this show unique: the codependent, unbreakable bond btw Sam and Dean. He started last year with Sam not looking for Dean, and he’s continuing this year with Dean “learning his lesson” of letting Sam go and doing nothing to save him. Because it is so important that FICTIONAL characters behave in rational ways.
I don’t know why the idea that the brothers will go to extreme lengths for
each other is so troublesome to Carver. It’s the basis of the entire show! But he's gone out of his way to make that seem bad. I loved the fact that both brothers would basically “go
dark” to save each other. I just loved that aspect of the show. I think that
aspect is going to be lost after this season. I really can’t see Dean doing anything – after this colossal disaster – to
save Sam if Sam were to die again. He would just let it happen.
I don't disagree w/you. It was about Dean's choice. His choice to not clue in Kevin on the trouble w/Sam. But why wouldn't he tell Kevin? There is NO rational reason for him to NOT tell Kevin. Dean could have warned Kevin, and Kevin could have died anyway, but that's not what the writers wanted.
ReplyDeleteDean didn't tell Kevin b/c the writers wanted Dean's choice to put Sam first to result in Kevin's death so Dean will NEVER make that choice again. The next time Sam dies (likely in the series finale), he will remain dead. Carver will then be happy that he broke that unhealthy bond those FICTIONAL characters had. Because it really matters that fictional brothers would die for each other or sell their souls for each other.
Whatever . . . . Carver's vision for Supernatural sucks, IMO.
Yeah . . . I totally didn't get that from that scene. I can honestly say you are the first person I've read who described it that way.
ReplyDeleteI just saw Dean watching Cas. I don't remember the scene that much, but I can say I had no thoughts about that scene, in particular, when I watched the episode.
Really? Haha!
ReplyDeleteI'm not laughing at you, but just chuckling to myself about how varied opinions can be. I can say I didn't see Cas flirting w/Sam or doing anything odd.
Again, your view of that scene is the first I've read w/that opinion. I've been commenting on HT all over the Internet, and no one has mentioned anything about the bar scene. And I was in a rage about the elitism shown in that Gas N Sip episode and commented everywhere, but saw no comments or remarks about the scene w/Dean looking at Cas.
I saw nothing in either scene.
Of course Dean is not proud of what he did, but if it's about someone's life, he'd put his pride aside and face his faults. He'd done it countless times. I still think it was along the lines of the 'decisions & consequences', the theme Carver had mentioned. They wanted to make a situation for Dean to see how his decision to let Gadreel in has changed everything; apparently it's going to make huge huge changes, according to Carver. Kevin was a prophet, but right then he wasn't doing amazing prophet-y works, so I guess we'll see more of these consequences (really hope not, enough with guilty Dean, and let Sam return).
ReplyDeleteAll in all, this scenario was a bad writing to achieve this plot line, IMO. There was many ways to kill Kevin w/o it look like it was all Dean's fault.
Dean did not put Sam first in this , thats the sad truth. And now we have had who knows what angel possessing Sam . Sam's body being used to kill Kevin which is something Sam would rather of died for than happen . And now Sam's broken body will be tortured to try and get rid of a angel that should not of been there in the first place. And then we follow Dean and his pov. What a show.
ReplyDeleteI agree about giving them too much credit, honestly I can't imagine they put this much though in their works. But I think mentioning April was as simple as a shout out to their other episode they've written this season.
ReplyDeleteIt's really funny, most of SPN writers just pay attention to their own episodes, they don't try to keep a consistence character development through the series, just playing with characters and cross referencing in their own episodes, who cares about canon!!! I can't understand what they're doing in those pre-produce meetings!
Interesting idea. I like it to be another spell scheme, b/c honestly tablet reading plot doesn't work for me.
ReplyDelete"I can't understand what they're doing in those pre-produce meetings!"
ReplyDeleteProbably hiding their real thoughts, faking smiles to the brillant ideas made by Bruckner and co, instead of questioning them and risking their job.
It doesn't matter if they want the characters have a consistent development, they know a few episode later these two would have ruin it with their own crap, so why bother.
Ok but then why is Supernatural the only gripe on spoilertv? now that is unreasonable because everyone may have their complaints. And a positive review like a literal one opposite of a gripe, I don't know what that would be technically titled by. I like the idea of a complaint discussion but there should be a 'agreement' discussion for each episode. I think I made sense but it was creative to do something like this whether I like it or not :)
ReplyDeleteIt's the showrunner's job to keep them in line and correct them through revisions, but unfortunately Carver is the biggest canon violator with what he did to brotherly affections and loyalty in S8, and never tried to repair or even accept his mistakes, the nerve of him!
ReplyDeleteI can't even say I felt the story was about how he nobly survived what was happening to him. For me, it was more like the story was just shelved for no reason. Dean was in his 14-episode emotional arc so the writers couldn't also have Sam depressed and freaking out.
ReplyDeleteI mean for someone who was hallucinating on a 24/7 basis, Sam held up remarkably well, but I saw that more as the writing neglecting his perspective than being intentional.
Dean wasn't behaving rationally - I think many times people don't behave rationally. Dean was in panic mode. Dean also believes, or believed, that he had the right ideas (built up by years of everyone around him making mistakes that he saw coming), and that he just had to control everything as best he could.
ReplyDeleteI hated Kevin's death and I wish the show hadn't done it, but I don't think it was OOC for Dean to lie to Kevin.
A lot of people have described it that way, they just haven't done so here. But we can agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteSinger has a lot of power, he's basically equal to Carver, and he's married to Lemming. That will hold some sway.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of the trials story in the second half of season 8.
ReplyDeleteSam's story in season 7, to me, felt like Gamble trying to show us how Sam was a survivor and trying to fight his pain, until finally he couldn't, because it was the worst ever, and Dean woke up to save his brother.
It just didn't really work for me, because of the segues into garbage like that Amy Pond story, and because of inconsistencies in the writing for Sam.
But Kevin could do more on the tablets. Kevin can always do more on the tablets if the writers want him to, he can always have some kind of breakthrough. And remember they bothered mentioning that Metatron had written something on them and then smudged it or something so no one would be able to figure out what it was. Honestly, actually killing a prophet was kind of stupid on Metatron's part because another prophet is just going to spring up. If he had just blinded Kevin the problem would have been solved because there would be no new prophet but Kevin wouldn't be able to translate anymore.
ReplyDeletewell I think that sometimes what people see as Dean putting Sam first is really a cover for Dean's inability or really unwillingness to let go of Sam. Sam being alive has been his life's mission/the very foundation of his self worth, he doesn't really care about the how/why/is it the right thing to do because for Dean its always the only thing to do. Its something I feel like Carver is trying to break Dean of for the first time thanks to the constant outcry from Dean fans. I think we are about to see the end of Sam and Dean's co-dependency in a very real way.
ReplyDeleteI think the writers have been playing it up for a few years now but the idea originally came from fans the writers, Misha and Jensen just jumped on the band wagon.
ReplyDeleteyes but the plot didn't call for Dean to do so, the plot called for Dean to keep the possession a secret so that Kevin would be killed, Cas would be elsewhere and Sam would be totally in the dark until it was too late. The whole point of the plot would have been lost. Also like I was trying to point out unsuccessfully was that Dean acted out of pure desperation through the whole saga, he mad rash decision after rash decision for one purpose and one only to make sure Zeke stayed in Sam and healed him. I'm sorry that Kevin died and that Cas fans were upset at how Dean apparently treated Cas poorly but in the grand scheme of the show neither of these things matter outside of how they affect Dean and his storyline. Its just the way the story is. Think over every character (including Sam) and every thing that happens as a plot device all of which exist in order to affect Dean's life journey.
ReplyDeleteexactly
ReplyDeleteSo, to sum up what you just said:
ReplyDeleteIn your opinion Dean was nervous about going to see Cas because he might have been angry still and wouldn't want to see him. Yet you don't see longing.
Wanting to do something, but being unable/afraid to do so; that's longing. That's it, that's the definition.
I'm not saying it was of romantic nature or that we were supposed to perceive it that way, it's perfectly understandable he'd be missing a friend, but you can't literally describe "longing" and then proceed to say you didn't see it. That just makes it seem like you're lying to yourself.
I actually think this is more about the writers responding to the whole Saint Dean scenario they've had going for years now, Dean seemed to always be right about everything and even when he was wrong everything always working out in his favor. Last season fans basically called it that Dean would be right about Benny and right not to trust the hunter guy in Freaks and Geeks before those things even made it to screen. The writers had set up a Dean is always right, Sam always wrong pattern on the show that had become ridiculous. This is actually the first time Dean has ever been shown to do anything that remotely resembles bad/wrong, the first time Dean has ever actually had to face the consequences of his actions (other than going to hell after making the deal) every other time its all fallen on someone else (the blame/the fixing/the consequences).
ReplyDeleteBut yes I would also say this is a response to the Dean fans about Dean being all about Sam, this is the end of the co-dependency. The next time Sam is close to dying Dean will have to let him or he wont be the new mature Dean his fans want him to be. Interestingly enough when Sam chose not to try to save Dean in season 8 he was lambasted for it, now Dean has tried and is being shown as being wrong too. I'm starting to get the impression that some fans want Sam to be all about Dean and saving him but think Dean should not be all about Sam and saving him. Its confusing.
well I think I read something about how this time Sam and Dean's relationship will be changed for good, that the co-dependency will be no more so I think this time there will actually be follow through and the right questions will be asked. Sam is already at that point where he doesnt think Dean should be willing to 'steamroller' through everything and everyone in his path just to save Sam. I think Sam was there last season but it wasnt written well enough. Now its Dean's time to learn the lesson that Sam was apparently told he was wrong for learning, but this time because its Dean it will be right.
ReplyDeleteDont worry I think the Sam and Dean relationship is about to change for good.
this season they're basically telling us that Dean putting Sam before anyone or anything is wrong, which IMO actually vindicated Sam's decision to for not looking for Dean last season. Its seems to me the writers are going round in circles.
ReplyDelete"Kevin can always do more on the tablets if the writers want him to"
ReplyDeleteKey word here is 'if' they want to. And as you said it couldn't be about fear of the tablet being read b/c the next prophet in line will emerge. Kidnapping and locking Kevin up was a better plan, I'm not sure about blindness b/c essentially he wouldn't be able to read anymore and it could ring for the next prophet to pop up.
@percysower had an interesting idea, killing a prophet could be an ingredient for another spell.
I hope we won't have another tablet-deciphering mission, this plot has exhausted itself. And frankly, Metatron has written them, what good could come from them?!
We can definitely agree to disagree. In all the discussions of that episode I read here, on Supernatural.tv, TWFB, and even perusing IMDb, I didn't see any discussions of that scene. I didn't realize people had interpreted the scene that way.
ReplyDeleteWhile it was certainly action-packed, I hated this episode a great deal for all the reasons mentioned. It shows such a lack of care with this show I love so much, when they make a big fat mess of everything.
ReplyDeleteWe'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. I see no reason why Dean wouldn't have warned Kevin that there was a threat in the bunker. To me, it was just more lazy plot point writing.
ReplyDeletehey Roxi welcome to SpoilerTV were we show are love for Sam here not like the other website's that talk only Hate. I am so tried of POV of Dean year after year and getting not a Damn thing from Sam nothing OK! so yes I mad but you do not see it that way fine that's Ok too OH by the way what is Dean fav food? PIE! right does any one know what Sam is anyone? just wanting to know?
ReplyDeleteand you have every damn right to say what you want to say. And about Season 8 blame the God Damn writers OK for that there the ones who fucked that up Ok. you don't even what to know what I think about that you would be mad at me for saying what I really think about that storyline there we are not going to go there OK! anyway you are thinking that a lot of Dean fans want Sam gone I never read that anywere to. what me mad is the way Dean did what he did and then for half the season LIED! that is what piss me off THATS IT! I never said I wanted Sam to be dead why could they do it another way that's all. I do not hate Dean but I hate what he did and God it's out of love whatever it got him in deep crap did Dean ever think he was going to get away with this? that is what make me mad right now not that Sam should have died not that no it about the Lie that's it.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking that was the end of season 5 that Sam was a angel and watching Dean season 6 would have been more awesome but they had to mess it up buy making him soulless but the other would have been so cool!
ReplyDelete"If he hadn't let Sam out of the panic room"
ReplyDeleteOr if Sam hadn't chosen to walk out of the panic room despite all the warnings he had been given. Let's give Sam some agency here.
Hey guess what kerinda? I see nothing but Sam love and Dean hate almost EVERY site I go. You state your hate for Dean every place I see your name. I'm allowed to defend him. Sorry if you don't like that.
ReplyDeleteDean gets POV? Big deal. Sam gets EVERY major storyline. And I do love Sam, but it's quite obvious that people like you want SPN to be completely about Sam. Sorry, but it's supposed to be about the Winchester brothers plural. And what the heck is the big deal about POV anyway? it's NOT a storyline, nor does it ever give Jensen anything decent to work with, just same old same old while EVERY juicy goes to Jared. You should be happy ab out that.
And I really sad about that too its about them both but then it SUCKS! all the crap they do to each other and its that we have to chose sides I do not want to do that and you don't too but we do. Like I like Dean ok I do but the thing he did is what I hate right now It got worst with season 7 Amy thing and now this with what is going on and the same with the Sam thing of season 8 the OCC thing not looking of Dean but we never got a damn reason for that but we get a reason why Dean wanted to save Sam all the time but there is not Sam reason what up with that? Sorry go off there but you are right It is about the brother plane and simple it just the way they treat each other that has fans chose sides.
ReplyDeleteand here we go with the hate! I have not been on other sites because of this crap you just said right there and I guess I done with this one too sorry. Everyone here is wanting Sam POV and not getting a F-ing thing and what is SO BAD ABOUT IT! OH and to bad you want Dean off the show I guess you are not a fans SO SAD!
ReplyDeleteI'm more than willing to give Sam agency, but you are totally disregarding Cas's agency here. Perhaps you are right that he thought he was doing God's will, but my impression was that by the time he opened the door to the panic room he was fully aware that Raphael and company were running the show and God was not in on the plan.
ReplyDeleteBut say I'm wrong. Cas still let Sam take the entire fall. He never told Dean that he let Sam out because "he thought it was God's will". He let Dean blame only Sam. When things got bad he blamed Sam and Dean for not finding a way around the Apocalypse and groused about trusting Dean. He continued to call Sam an abomination again without ever mentioning his part in the whole deal.
Cas was no innocent in this and he has never admitted or faced his responsibility in the mess.
For me, I honestly never get that vibe from ANY of their scenes so it is always lost on me.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, I was just told that the scene where Dean was looking at Cas in the gas station was viewed by some as a nod to Destiel, as Dean "longing" for Destiel. I never once thought that at all. And I was told some thought Cas was flirting w/both Dean and Sam in the bar. Again, I didn't see any flirtation.
I can usually pick up on those vibes in other shows, but I honestly do not get any from this show . . . none at all! Haha!
I actually quite enjoyed the soulless!Sam arc. It was very interesting to me.
ReplyDeleteAhh . . . I don't go on tumblr. Tried once, but I couldn't quite understand it.
ReplyDeleteKerinda, I've read fanfic that did a better job with Sam's hellucinations. And I'm talking about one-shot stories! Haha :-)
ReplyDeleteAbout Gripe #3, this has been bugging me for a while now, but...when was it said that reapers possessed people? I thought they just had bodies that they can transform whenever they want?
ReplyDeleteTrue, they also aren't able to be seen by others, so that's new. But the first reaper we saw wasn't possessing anyone, but had a body. I don't understand. Where have they said April was possessed?
Castiel skated on the Apocalypse. He never once blamed himself even though he bore A LOT of the responsibility. However, Sam took on FULL responsibility for the Apocalypse. So, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't blame Dean. He didn't blame Castiel. He didn't blame himself. If the audience recognizes that it was not his fault, alone, I'm not sure why that is an issue.
It doesn't matter if Sam had ditched Ruby. He and Dean still would have killed Lilith, and the Apocalypse still would have started b/c they were both working off the wrong intel! Why did they have bad intel? Because of Castiel and the angels. It's really that simple.
when was it said that reapers possessed people? I thought they just had bodies that they can transform whenever they want?
ReplyDeleteThis used to be canon until this season. In 9.03 April - the girl who saw Cas rummaging through garbage and gave him her sandwich - was possessed by a reaper. The reason we found out about this is because when the reaper had Cas tied up and was torturing him she bragged about April being a sweet girl and then said,"she didn't mind me entering her body, not one bit" confirming that she was possessing her body.
Some people asked the writers about it on twitter. Someone from the show (not a writer) replied that reapers were a form of angel. This caused more confusion and a few calls of canon violation. The person later backtracked and as off now, no one knows what the reaper mythology is, just that they now possess bodies and can be killed with angel blades.
I get it. Dean's going to have to deal with his lies now. I'm sure Sam will be furious and it won't be pretty.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think it was "only" a certain bloodline, but that some vessels were better than others and that if one member was acceptable, it was likely the other was as well. The more powerful the angel, the fewer the choices. So, for angels like Lucifer, Sam was the vessel prepared for him, but all of the psychic kids would have worked... And Nick could hold him for a while. For Michael, only a Winchester would do... Except Sam because he was an abomination.
ReplyDeleteExactly, it was more guilt to me for kicking him out.
ReplyDeleteAnd destroy Sam in the process. But then I have always felt it was Dean's relationship rather than a 'brothers' one. Which is why Dean gets to cross lines when it comes to Sam and in this he has gone off the planet but Sam doesnt even get a pov .
ReplyDeleteSam in reality should be badly scarred and messed up by what Dean has done , but it will be how badly screwed up Dean is over all of this that we will see .
S8 was a completely different case, they ruined brotherly bonds. No loving brother would abandon his brother like a disposable job and move on, he never even tried to find out what happened, whether Dean was alive or dead.
ReplyDeleteI never blamed Dean for going extreme length to save/protect his brother, I don't want some show with boring brothers with normal bonding, we see them everyday around us. In fact I have no complain with this so called 'codependency', it's beautiful and rare, but problem here is it's not sth mutual, it's become a one-sided-dependency with Dean not being able to live w/o Sam and Sam ditching him first opportunity. This is the thing that bothers Dean fans.
Excuse me, but I'm NOT the one hating, you and tv monkey are! You hate Dean and have made it clear that you only care about Sam, those were YOUR words!
ReplyDeleteI was being sarcastic; since you guys hate Dean so much and want EVERYTHING to be about Sam, you should want Dean written off, no?
There's nothing bad about wanting Sam pov, you just make it sound as if that's such a great thing to have. Well, I would rather Dean had HALF as much important storylines and attention from the writers as Sam has gotten from day one. But unlike you two, who hate Dean so much, I happen to like Sam very much.
I DON'T chose sides like you seem to think. And if you EVER bothered to read anything I ever write, you would see that I have been VERY vocal about my belief that Dean, although meaning the best, made a very HUGE mistake. I in no way condone his actions. It's just that, unlike his haters, I don't think he did it because he's this horrible, selfish prick like some of you claim. I believe he did out because he loves Sam, but he acted very irrationally and impulsively, did a very wrong and stupid thing out of desperation. But unlike Sam, who was able to atone for accidentally freeing Lucifer by jumping into the cage and saving the world from the Apocalypse, these writers made damned sure Dean f-cked up in a way that he can never atone for or find redemption for. And as someone who loves the character, this pisses me off and tells me that Dean is their least favorite character, and I don't understand why. But then, it's only a TV show.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of the gripes that Dean is smart and they dumb him down. That bugs me alot to its like he was the smartest and bad ass hunter last season and not sure he wouldn't have started questioning the fact that Zeke was listening into everything I mean when Sam went out to get food for Dean; zeke jumped in. I really dislike the dumbing down of smart characters.
ReplyDeleteAnd my problem is ok we know Dean will blame himself for what happend to kevin that is a given but how is Dean suppost to know that this unknown angel has been meeting with metatron not like he is going to tell him. And how is Dean suppost to warn Kevin of something that he thinks is not a threat just at the moment they think he can get a hold of Sam and have him get rid of the angel. Granted again dumbing down for sake of writing. Poor Kevin time was up; of course you would think the angels would start getting rid of all prophets and I want to know why metatron does not think the winchesters are a threat maybe he hasn't heard deans record yet on big kills that will probobly be his undoing in the end.
And i enjoyed the gripes agree with some of them.
I guess we should have seen things devolving to this point when they chose to not have Sam look for Dean. As Tessa points out, Dean isn't stupid, but the writers seem to have forgotten who these characters are. And Cas ... he changes from episode to episode too. The writing is so uneven and so lazy. Buckner/Ross-Leming are the worst offenders, but they certainly aren't the only ones. Adam Glass had the boys ages about six years different in Bad Boys. I don't think the writers understand the boys as individuals, so they get the brother bond wrong too.
ReplyDeleteI'm still not convinced that Carver hasn't had a brain transplant. How could the guy who wrote Mystery Spot and gave us robo!Sam have come up with a plot line where Sam didn't look for Dean?
I don't think he gave us Robo!Sam. That was Sera Gamble, but agree on Mystery Spot.
ReplyDeleteI'm neither a Sam or Dean fan. I'm a fan of both brothers, and I've been waiting since Swan Song for them to get back on the same page and be a team again. We got it briefly at the end of S6, but for the most part there's always been something coming between them. The worst was having Sam not look for Dean, which was completely OOC and not given convincing grounding, and the mean-spirited conflict it caused. I'm personally really tired of the lies, betrayals, and secrets. They aren't stupid, and they should have learned by this point that lying etc. never ends well. Enough already. I'd like to see some real character development. I'd like them as a team to have a storyline. It shouldn't be a competition. It should be Sam and Dean against the world. They used to work together to outsmart the villains. Now they barely talk to one another. Contrary to the "no chick flick moments" myth, they used to talk to each other all the time. The writers need to go back and re-watch S1-3.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Dean made the only choice that Dean was capable of making in the circumstance the writers put him in.
ReplyDeleteI don't question the choices the characters are making, but I do question the choices the showrunner is making and that's been the case since the beginning of S8.
":This season’s Dean is a product of lazy writing by folks who don’t know the character all too well" add to that Sam and Castiel. For example, the awful interaction where Team Free Will bring up April - the 'she was hot' line was supposed to come FROM SAM, but the actors thought that the line belonged to Dean more, so they switched it up. This is the second time this seasons the actors have admitted having to change lines because they are OC for the characters. (the other line was about Dean not being able to read books that didn't have pictures, from the Oz episode)
ReplyDeleteAll of the episodes this season (with the exception of Oz) have been ripped from past seasons, and they in turn, make us realize that previous seasons were better at making scary monsters, dovetailing plots and character development, not to mention keeping the eye on the ball - the mytharc. Luckily, we have Jared, Jensen, Misha, Osric and Mark to make the dreck watchable, while we wait for a shining hero to save us from the bad writing, Please Ben Edlund, come back!)
The writing room has admitted that they rely on staffers to check for continuity (which fail absmally) when the writers should be going back and watching all the episodes of each season (just as fans do) to know where the story has been and figure out where it's going. And stop going over the same ground. Apparently, Carver's theme this year has been factions warring against each other ala Game of Thrones, but that fantastic show is lucky to have the creator as it's producer, they have a clear idea of where they are going (not as I have the impression of SPN, going off on the fly, not bothering to pace the MOTW eps and the mytharcs) they deftly pace action and character building, so you care what happens to the characters.
We don't give a damn about he angel war because we have no one to root for, the only good living angel being Castiel, we can't get behind the demon war because Crowley's been left in the dungeon, and Abbadon only appeared twice (once as herself, once in a blood-bowl call) Sam hasn't been around with his split angelic personality, and Cas and Dean have been divided - might I add by the clunkiest, shoddiest, lack of logical sense mechanisms I've ever seen. First Cas is out, then he's in, then he's out, ad nausuem.
The entire human journey of Cas was WASTED, nothing but four eps of torture, non-con and stabbing, with a few platitudes dropped in about 'oh being human sucks' and faith in a Godless universe. Now through the weakest of dues ex machina, Cas is back to angel, and back in the trenchcoat again. You gotta give kudos to Misha for managing to wrest sublime emotion from this crapfest.
Back to the GOT theme, yes, that show has sudden death, apparently that's what caused another waste, the killing of Kevin Tran, a great young character who had so much possiblility, and something show has desperately needed, a reason for hope. But GOT never kills characters needlessly, Ned Stark's sense of honor and devotion to him has been the reason for the Stark family's motivations throughout the remaining seasons - but do you think Kevin will get much of a mention after this?
the front end of the season was forgettable filler, with the exception of the past-Dean flashback, though even that had continuity issues. Please do not try for comedy eps unless you know what you are doing (Ben Edlund) I'm just gonna say that I'll never give up show, after having watched since 2005, but you have to wonder why the best character development, scares and interesting plots are found in fanfic these days.
Yep, cos if it don't work to fit the very weak single episode plot, let's just change it! Who will notice? Do ya think we will get an explanation that now that Kevin is dead, why doesn't a new prophet just pop up? Crowley killed a few, but not all of them.
ReplyDeleteLast season the writers talked about taking Sam and Dean to a new place because they were older and had matured, but they keep falling back on old old storylines, and even worse, Dean has devolved into a person he never was - pushing women into sex to put notches on his belt - it was sleazy and disgusting. It's obvious to me that the writing room has no ideas and no real interest in this show, they are all about their proposed spin-off, they wasted half of last season on every-writing-team-throw-us-your-concepts so the MOTW eps became Monster You Make Friends With and the whole 'saving people' thing didn't come back until the second to last ep of the season.
ReplyDeleteI daresay a lot of the griping by fans sometimes tends to be about one character or one actor over another, and that's not what the 'gripes' are about - the discussion here is more about how the characters are established, how the mythology of the show runs, and what worked and what didn't work. that's how critique works, and it's not necessarily a bad thing at all. As a writer myself, I tend to take the praise and the personal stuff off the top and bottom, and see what the middle says. If everyone complains about a different aspect, it's not something I pay attention to, but if everyone is saying the same thing ie: why can't fans tell that April was a Reaper not an Angel? then I would know that this was a real problem.
ReplyDeletethe problem is not 'Dean revolving around Sam' that's a given considering what they've been through and that Dean is more of a parent at times than a brother - but there are problems when writers keep treading the same ground or make the pair go backward, the writers put Sam in the position of not looking for Dean, but then they gave him no grounded reason for doing so (so even Jared was upset) this season, writers have put Dean in an untenable situation, and so far, there is no way for him to get out. We treat Sam and Dean with love and respect, and we mind when writers go for an easy and cheap way of creating tension and drama. Carver said he wanted Sam and Dean to mature and grow with their experiences in seasons eight and nine, but it hasn't happened - at all.
ReplyDeleteAs a Destiel shipper (in fandom) I have to agree with you that 'militant' shippers are a problem in getting to critque of how the relationship between Dean and Cas progresses on the show. I have to give the creators and producers the right to do with the characters as they wish. Cas sexuality can also be defined as hetero, because we've only ever seen him with women and interested in women. Meg, Daphne, April and Nora. I'm fine with Cas portrayed this way, but every single one of his 'partners' with the exception of Meg was one note and disposable. I'd rather Cas have a story that had some meaning, rather than being made a joke, or meaningless. All that aside, both Dean and Cas are fictional, and the writers could make them well - suddenly have longings for poodles, so having them be together together in a dream or alternate universe ep would not be out of bounds.
ReplyDeleteDean was supposed to not treat women like meat? He never did. Yes, he had hookups with women in bars, and women he met and saved on hunts, but by all appearences, he treated them well, never was rough or abusive, and yes he does look at porn, and that is objectification, but you didn't really see him ever press this on the women he met in the show. Dean was progressing and maturing the last few years (as he should) which is why Rock and a Hard Place was disgusting, here is Dean pushing himself on a woman who is crying and in fear, and when he attempts to make her feel good about her former career as a porn star, he can only objectify her more - and to cap it all off, the woman regrets this in the end, by confiding to her friend 'I wasn't as strong as I thought I was' - yeah cos Dean (like Cas and a REAPER, for hell's sake) are all that and women (and creatures who look like them) just can't resist.
ReplyDeleteCas is a part of the show and is featured on boxes (in particular, the 1-6 season deluxe box) but that's beside the point. If you are going to bother having Cas as a season regular - as Bobby was - you give him something interesting to do - just as one of the bright spots in the entire show was 'Weekend at Bobby's' and his very meaningful stories in season seven. Having strong secondary characters just gives the main characters more to play with - in fact, Jensen and Jared are asking for this all the time. But Cas gets no consistency, as Bobby did, Cas is changed according to the storyline, and that's a shame. I for one, would love to see more development of Sam and Castiel as friends, considering how many times Sam has been the one to push for giving the angel another chance.
ReplyDeleteYes, it may have been Gamble's idea. I'm just saying that he wrote that character. He knows it and should have had that in mind. Since he didn't, it should have been put in perspective, but we didn't see what made him not look for Dean. That was a huge failure in storytelling.
ReplyDeleteI love Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean - but so much of what Dean is relates to his care for Sam, and I don't want to see Sam diminished or sidelined, and I'd love to see him given time to develop, and I think last season was a disservice to him (not just not looking for Dean but being jealous of Benny and Cas) and I think this season he's not gotten much to do, and even as Zeke, Jared doesn't have much to do. Why couldn't we see Sam engaging Zeke/Gadreel in his head, or as he did Lucifer? that would make the concept of him being possessed much more compelling, and doubtless, interesting for Jared in an acting capacity.
ReplyDeleteI feel Dean has gotten trashed this season and is spinning his wheels, he's being forced to lie to everyone because of a deal he made with a devil (yet again) his reasons are understandable, but he's not doing anything to save himself, or the people he loves, you would think he'd be working to help Zeke get out of Sam, or at least, work harder to stop the angel war, or question things more. But the main problem with the plotting this season has been letting things lie to go off on filler MOTW eps, anywhoo, not only has Dean been placed in this Kobiyashi Maru situation, he's been dumbed down for not liking books without pictures (what?) and stalking weeping women, (blech) that's not the strong, empathetic, kick it in the ass Dean that I know.
ReplyDeleteThe writers need to be locked in a room and watch all the episodes from every season, and not rely on staffers for continuity.
ReplyDeletesorry I didnt mean to vote down, but was going to respond, Misha played that scene (to me) looking up and to the right - which used to be perceived as a 'tell' that someone is lying - as saying something that he wants Dean to think he believes, all his gestures and movements here are exaggerated because he's playing at being human - now that doesn't say that Cas wants sex with Dean, but that he thinks that sex is something that he should experience because Dean thinks it's important, and that sex should be with women (brothel scene in season five). Cas is in Jimmy's vessel, so perhaps that is also an influence, but again, these are fictional characters, they could go anywhere writers want them to go.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's about B and RL not knowing who the fricking characters are (or caring) for all this time. They have a 'concept' or a 'scene' or a 'line' they want, and everything, characters, canon, are bent to fit.
ReplyDeleteI thought that Castiel didn't steal another angel's grace because it's an abhorrent thing to do. He said, it's barbaric. When you hear about a murder, you don't wonder why the killer didn't cannibalize the victim's body. I figure it's like that.
ReplyDeleteI get as much chemistry from Dean and Cas as I do from Dean and Sam, the screen just ooozes with it, but, I don't see Dean and Sam in a sexual context (bros and Dean being surrogate parent), but I can see it in Dean and Cas - but I know the angel aspect to some is as bothersome as the bros to others. Everything is open to interpretation, and you can't say Dean and Cas personal space is not a conscious thing on the part of the show, Bromance is a huge draw, and writers have always known this from Kirk and Spock, to the Lone Ranger and Tonto, to Achilles and Patroclus.
ReplyDeleteBut they might have slid in a comment earlier in the season referencing Cas' stolen grace - the only thing they said was that Cas shouldn't be killed because his grace was used in the spell, and that might be important, it had nothing to do with the canon twisting 'stealing another angel's grace' then it wouldn't have been such a what the fuck, instead of oh fuck cas no!'
ReplyDeletethere was action, but it was clunky and there were a ton of info-dumps, rather than having worked this into the stories throughout the season.
ReplyDeleteWhy do these writers even still have jobs, I don't get it???
ReplyDeleteI feel you. i have never witnessed such a continuity mess as I did this episode; I'm mostly a casual fan (I haven't even watched half of spn episodes) and the errors are still glaring for me
ReplyDelete"do you think Kevin will get much of a mention after this?" sadly, I don't think so. He'll get a couple more sad mentions, mostly, and then the show is going to pretend he never existed at all, unless we need more ~sad~ moments. at least that's the impression I got with the other hunter family who's supposed to be close to Sam and Dean (the one with two females, I can't remember their names right now, sorry)
ReplyDelete"Yeah! Cas was always a little dumb about these things compared to other angels" actually, I remember him being smart when he lost his powers during the Apocalypse arc. a lot of his famous 'stupid' lines are mostly because of cultural differences (not getting cultural references, etc) instead of plain stupid things. and then we have s9 and 'what is toothpaste'-Cas, which is really jarring in my opinion
ReplyDeleteexactly when did dean become a mind reader how is he suppost to know that the angel formly known as zeke was meeting with metatron. how is he suppost to know that zeke is walking around with a name? he got worried once cass told him that zeke died so he is not sure who is in sam but figured if he could get sam to let said angel go then no one would be hurt. how is he suppost to know zeke was listening. i just hope we get the dean that threatens and sometimes follows through on those threats and i would like to see sam whenever he doesn't have an angel in him stay at the bunker while dean thinks things through in his impala.
ReplyDeletei'm late as ever but i think my biggest problem is that if that whole april and suzy thing is to discourage dean/castiel shippers then i wanna puke. there are loads of different means to be able to put a definite end to the "will they be canon" brigade, and the rape and objectification of two female characters was not the way.
ReplyDeletethey did the same with wincest shippers without using rape.
charile was back and the carver edlund books were a topic again. bam, comment about dean and castiel and the people that ship them and dean going "not again. what is it with people wanting to see two dudes bang even tho they are brothers or like brothers." or something of the sort that shuts that stuff down.
there is nothing wrong with cementing a characters' sexuality. and while as a queer person i'd be lying if i said i wouldn't be sad if in the end castiel at least wasn't allowed freedom to explore non-hetero forms of sexual/romantic love, as the more queer characters the better, i'm not going to call it no homo.
but there is a problem if the need to distance the characters from queer readings came at the expense of april being raped, castiel having his consent removed and being the victim of sexual assault because of it, another female character is reduced to something dean has sex with, and said rape is treated as a joke.
why couldn't they have just developed a great female character with a story of her own and then had dean or castiel fall for her? honestly i'd take abaddon/dean over what happened with april and suzy.
idk why this made me so angry but it did :/
Season gr8 was so fascinating that it was clear it'll be hard to top. But so far, season 9 is worse than I expected. It' such a shame, since the actors are doing such a wonderful job [Jared's (not)Ezekiel, Misha's human!Cas, and Jensen managing to make an OOC!Dean still Dean]. I wish the writers would work as hard as them.
ReplyDeleteThe point isn't that Dean should or could have known about Gadreel. The point is that at no time did he try to do anything to find out if the angel that possessed Sam was not dangerous to Sam and others. Cas said Zeke was "a good soldier". Dean never tried to find out what that meant. He never told Cas that he allowed Zeke to take possession of Sam and see what that meant. Heck, Cas had said Sam was changing on an atomic level and Cas could not heal him, while Zeke said he was too weak to heal Sam from outside. Dean never asked Cas if angels could heal people more easily or thoroughly if they possessed them. Dean took Zeke at face value and made NO move to check out exactly what he had sentenced Sam to by tricking him. Finally he possibly has made it impossible for Sam to fight Gad Or Zeke, if Zeke went bad) because Sam doesn't know there is a Gad or Zeke to fight. Saving Sam's life wasn't the sin. Refusing to tell Sam or to try to research anything about his choice of allowing Sam to be possessed is the problem.
ReplyDeleteSam got hammered for trusting Ruby and he NEVER let her mess with Dean's mind or body. He didn't know killing Lilith would release Lucifer, but people have blamed constantly for daring to trust Ruby after a year of her saving Dean and himself. Dean trusts an unknown angel that he has no history with and no idea if he can trust and it's handwave all around that Dean shouldn't be blamed for the consequences because he didn't know.
"Dean not being able to live w/o Sam and Sam ditching him first opportunity."
ReplyDeleteI think it's more a matter of Sam not being written consistently. His biggest, most suicidal mistakes came when Dean was dead/missing. Let's not forget when Dean told Sam to "Pick a hemisphere" and Sam ended up working in a bar because he had no reason to do anything else without Dean there. Let's not forget the times Dean's told Sam his choices were wrong. Let's not forget the reason Sam went after Lilith in the first place was to save his brother. Let's not forget how Dean won't let Sam talk about anything that's bothering him ("Dude, no chick-flick moments") but the moment he needs to get something off his chest it's share-and-care time.
Meanwhile, Sam does everything he can to save/help his brother, and he is constantly being narratively punished for that. Killing Lilith led to the Apocalypse, keeping Lucifer from killing Dean meant jumping into Hell, taking on the Trials and almost dying, agreeing to fight to survive FOR DEAN and being possessed by a lying, manipulative angel...the list goes on and on.
He's done some pretty extreme things to try to protect Dean, too Even leaving for Stanford - we know he never felt clean; it isn't such a jump to think that one of the ways that manifested was as a desire to avoid tainting his family. Have you already forgotten the months Sam spent hunting down the Trickster because he could bring Dean back? Or how he spent the four months between S3 and S4 searching for a way to get Dean out of Hell? After season 8, as far as Sam knew, Dean was capital-D Dead. He died next to an angel and he was a good guy; why wouldn't he have gone to Heaven? How could Sam live with himself if he brought Dean back to suffer some more on Earth because he was too selfish to live without him?
And then people decide he's a bad person for wanting his brother to be happy in Heaven instead of miserable on Earth.
The very first season had a joke about Dean not liking books without pictures (Shadow). The line was originally supposed to be Dean teasing Sam about Sam not liking books without pictures. Jensen and Jared changed it. I don't really think most of the material this season has written Dean as stupid. Dean
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about how he was with Suzy.
The show has never really written Dean or Sam as proactive, even during an apocalypse. In this case it at least makes more sense to me, because he was hobbled by trying to keep Sam alive.
For me, "trashed" is what they did with Sam last season where he didn't look for Dean and we barely saw why. We've seen a lot of Dean's psyche and thought processes this season. They even had the flashback episode to show that Dean was essentially broken into believing his only purpose was Sam.
Of course this means nothing if it isn't followed up on and Sam and Dean just go back to their usual strained, uneasy partnership that has a few "we don't have anyone else" speeches, but I think most of this season has been true to Dean's character and sets up the chance to move him out of some of the tropes of many seasons (Dean always has to be right, Dean living for Sam is wonderful, etc.).
Cas sacrificed his life repeatedly to stop the apocalypse. I think he knew he bore some blame.
ReplyDeleteThere wasn't very much Dean could have done. He was barely speaking to Cas. There were no other angels to ask, because they wanted Dean and Sam dead, and even if they didn't, he had no reason to believe what they told him.
ReplyDeleteDean had in the earlier seasons openly leered at women and made comments about them, as he did with Portia. He was no longer doing that, which is why Man's Best Friends felt OOC.
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure we're disagreeing?