There has been a lot of discussion over the past few seasons about the characterization of Sam, Dean, and last year Cas too. The characters of Sam and Dean especially have changed a lot over the seasons, and many people have strong opinions on who the true Sam or Dean is. I thought this raised an interesting question – how do fans define SPN’s main characters? I’m looking for nominations in the comments below for the top 10 adjectives that you think best describe the following characters: Sam, Dean, Cas, and Bobby. You get up to 10 adjectives per character. If you give me 11, I’ll just count your first 10. The nomination period will be open through Friday, and you can edit your choices any time up until then. After that, I’ll pull the most common nominations (aiming for 15 per character if we get a good variety and if PollDaddy says it’s OK), and I’ll post these as choices in a series of polls to see which descriptors fans feel best fit these characters.
Negative characteristics are OK, but please remember that your least favorite character is no doubt someone’s favorite, so be considerate of your fellow viewers’ feelings in making your choices. Also, please remember that someone’s negative submission isn’t an insult directed at you – it’s just their opinion.
Edited to add: Phrases are allowed.
Edited to add: Phrases are allowed.
The characterization of Sam and Dean has been a hot topic for the past few seasons, and the phrase "out of character" gets tossed around a lot. I thought this might be an interesting exercise to see how fans define these characters, and by extension out-of-character behavior.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to have to think more on this before submitting my own nominations, but we have through Friday.
I'm definitely going to have to think about this, too.
ReplyDeleteBut I truly think something isn't right with Sam at the moment. I'm personally a fan of the "Amelia isn't real and was Sam's way of coping" theory or he was magically fucked with while Dean was gone.
And Dean was in Purgatory - He's bound to have changed since it was a little bit traumatic.
Can't wait to see what everyone comes up with!
Fun topic. Going to have to think about this for a while as well
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about the Amelia storyline. Some of it makes sense, but there's a lot about the way Sam has been acting, and especially his choice of seemingly abandoning family and his responsibilities, that I can't reconcile. I also feel that there have been a lot of characteristics with Sam that have been abandoned by the writing team over the past few years. There were issues last season too, so I can't attribute it all to a plot twist.
ReplyDeleteI am loving the fact that Dean wants to hunt again and have his brother at his side and hunting the bad things again. Glad purgatory has brought bad ass dean back. And the purgatory storyline very intresting watching cas, benny and dean trying to get out of there in one piece. And sam and amelia not sure about them they just seem like they don't have chemistry but i want to find out what was going on with sam and he can explain it to dean. the ohter thing is why he went back to rufus cabin when dean returned. there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. and i love how suspecious dean is right now of cas i would actually like to see dean stay that way questioning that. but i am loving season 8. and can't wait until the show returns on nov 28th eps looks hilarious.
ReplyDeleteGod I hope there's something going on with Sam, otherwise they have just assassinated his character by writing that he would leave his brother for dead. And the writers have given us no clues something more is going on, and they keep telling us in interviews that nothing weird is going on with Sam, so I'm losing hope. And now on top of that, I'm worried about Dean too. While the writers were busy writing that Dean is angry with Sam for not looking for a way to save him, they don't seem to have noticed that they were writing Dean as not looking for a way to save Cas. Now that we know Cas was very much alive when Dean last saw him, I'm very concerned the writers have written this huge double standard and assassinated Dean's character too and don't even seem to have noticed. They even dropped a solution right into Dean's lap: the angel he met at the auction was friendly to Cas and we know angels could rescue Cas from Purgatory because they did later. Dean knows from personal experience they can rescue people from Hell, why not Purgatory? Why not ask the friendly angel for help getting Cas out? So now not only am I losing hope they will fix Sam, I have little hope they will fix Dean because they don't even seem to realize what they did to him.
ReplyDeleteThis may be something I participate in.
ReplyDeleteI have never once in seven years thought Sam or Dean were acting out of character, but this season, we have Sam not even trying to find Dean, which is bad enough. But on top of that, while Dean is mad at Sam for not trying, Dean himself was not trying to find a way to get Cas out of Purgatory. Now we know Cas was very much alive when Dean got out, despite what Dean told Sam. This behaviour is definitely way out of character for both of them, and I've all but lost hope the writers have a plan to justify their actions.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure I'm going to edit these as I think more about this, but to get the ball rolling:
ReplyDeleteSam: Independent, Resourceful, Empathetic, Driven, Questioning, Introverted, Longing, Optimistic, Obsessive, Curious
Dean: Extroverted, Snarky, Defensive, Caring, Pessimistic, Family-oriented, Loyal, Playful, Enjoys life, Stuck
Cas: Questioning, Curious, Defeated, Loyal, Wanting structure, Guilt-ridden
Bobby: Caring, Snarky, Sarcastic, Fatherly, Comfortable with himself, Self-reliant, Lonely, Sad, Balanced, Wise
Surprisingly, I found Cas the most difficult to describe. I'll definitely have to think more about him.
Please do!
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how long Dean's Purgatory changes stick. So what characteristics do you think Dean or Sam (or Cas or Bobby) have that have been absent until the Purgatory storyline, or in Sam's case were there until the Amelia storyline?
ReplyDelete!!!!..WHAT..COOL..AWESOME..find 10 adjective to describe castiel,.sam,.dean and bobby...mmm..LOYALTY,.HONOR.,MORAL,.FRIENDSHIP,.PASSION,.STRENGTH..HUMBLE,.WILLINGNESS,.PERSEVERANCE AND FAITH.
ReplyDeleteIf you can tell us which characters those descriptions apply to then I'll include them in the results. Are you saying they apply to all of those characters?
ReplyDeleteyour avatar picture of the cat is so cute :))
ReplyDelete..OMG...PERFECT...ha,.ha,.ha..1000 percent agree with you..absolutely..awesome and MR.SPOCK WILL SAID..FASCINATING.
ReplyDeleteThanks! That's Eva, my cat, on my bed telling me it's time to wake up.
ReplyDelete.....A.L.L..CHARACTERS..YESS... rom: Disqus
ReplyDeleteSent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:26 PM
To: nellydelcarmen77@hotmail.com
Subject: [spoilertvhome] Re: Supernatural - Will the Real Sam and Dean Please Stand Up? (Spoilers)
chris684 wrote, in response to nellymendezcolon:
If you can tell us which characters those descriptions apply to then I'll include them in the results. Are you saying they apply to all of those characters?
Link to comment
There are some very interesting theories on Sam (and Dean's) seemingly OOC behaviour this season that can be found on thewinchesterfamilybusiness website that really seem to make sense. I recommend people to head on over and read.
ReplyDeletethe cat in my avatar is my cat suzzy
ReplyDeleteSam: Heroic, self-sacrificing, smart, compassionate, stubborn, proud, independent, sensitive, tough, determined.
ReplyDeleteDean: Heroic, self-sacrificing, protective, guilt-ridden, handy, street-smart, funny, badass, needy (dependent on others for his sense of self-worth), hedonistic.
Cas: Heroic, earnest, stoic, solemn, naive, caring, honest, misguided, penitent, awkward.
Bobby: Heroic, paternal, helpful, curmudgeonly, knowledgeable, wise, direct, reliable, resourceful, damaged.
Cute!
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have said it better, so ditto.
ReplyDeleteI found Cas to be the most difficult too, and it's not because I don't like him. The thing I enjoy the most about him is the "fish out of water" quality because it's great comic relief and Misha just nails it every time. But I think that quality, of being a stranger in a strange world, somewhat alien, also makes it harder for me to wrap my head around him. But that's okay, it's also what makes him really interesting, I really enjoy watching an angel navigate the vagaries of human society. It's like Data, Odo, the Doctor and Seven-of-Nine on Star Trek. Those characters always fascinated me because of their journey to become more human and their often funny attempts to learn human ways.
ReplyDeleteI like Cas too, so that's not the issue with me either. I'm determined that by Friday I'll have a good list for him though.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, it was clear you liked him when you said "surprisingly." :)
ReplyDeleteI don't actually think anything's been terribly strange or OOC this year, beyond Sam immediately giving up on looking for Dean. If they'd added a month or so of looking, followed by despair and moving on, I would've found that to be reasonably in-character. But even there, I can kind of see where they're coming from. Anyway, here are my traits:
ReplyDeleteDean: Loyal, extroverted, protective, empathetic, adaptable, courageous, intuitive, altruistic, guilt-ridden, judgmental
Sam: Rational, socially adept, intellectually curious, future-focused, seeking, introverted, hopeful, thoughtful, secretive, independent, resentful
Castiel: Sincere, seeking, loyal, insecure, determined, well-intentioned, idealistic, vengeful, obstinate, powerful
Obviously there are others that could be slotted in here, but these are the ones that I think really need to be written in at one point or another if the characters are going to seem in-character to me. If Dean, for example, doesn't pass judgment on something or someone who's doing harm to others, he's not going to seem Dean-like. If he abandons someone in need, or displays poor hunting instincts, he's going to seem OOC. If Sam is portrayed as a fish-out-of-water in "normal" situations, or if he's suddenly clingy or needy, I'm going to think that's strange. Castiel without his idealism and his awareness of his own power isn't going to look like Castiel to me.
There's obviously room to play around within these general characterizations... just because Dean's generally comfortable judging what's right vs wrong, that doesn't mean he won't change his mind if confronted with different evidence (like with Lenore), and just because Sam is generally looking toward the future, that doesn't mean he can't be despairing and bogged down by terrible circumstances (although I think in almost every season, we've seen him looking to an endpoint for this life... maybe not six and seven, but those were odd seasons). But in general, this is how I see these guys.
I love Cas and it's hard of me to come up with good words to describe him. He's a complex character that's hard to get into his head sometimes. Him being new at expressing emotions and being more quiet and still learning human ways makes it hard.
ReplyDeleteThanks tvmonkey, I'll go back and read because I haven't seen any Dean theories yet. I went into the season with complete faith, but then read that the producers were insisting in the press that there was nothing weird going on with Sam. So since then, whenever I read a good theory, it just hits up against that wall. In order to believe the theory, I have to believe they are outright lying not just to us but to the entertainment press as well, and I find it hard to believe they would do that. Meanwhile, there is zero progress on finding out if there's more to Sam's story on the show. If there is something going on, I think they should give us hints there is something going on, and not lie to us that there is nothing going on, so we could all be having fun wondering what is going on, instead of many of us worrying there is nothing going on. Because if there is nothing going on, then we can only believe they are screwing up characters we love.
ReplyDeleteIn my timeline right before the last episode, people were saying "I'm afraid to watch!" And right after, others were saying "I couldn't watch! Is it safe?" For the next episode, I'm taking a friend up on her offer to watch it for me first and let me know. And watching TV just shouldn't be like that, lol.
"If he abandons someone in need...he's going to seem OOC."
ReplyDeleteBut that's precisely why I think it's OOC that Dean was saying Cas was dead, when Cas was alive and kicking when he left, instead of trying to find a way to get him out.
"If they'd added a month or so of looking, followed by despair and moving
on, I would've found that to be reasonably in-character."
It actually gives me a bit of hope that they didn't include a month of looking for Dean, because they can't possibly justify not looking at all without some kind of supernatural twist. And man do I want a supernatural twist.
BTW, did you forget Bobby?
I actually think that - for once - Sam acted reasonably and I cheered him on finally growing up. I mean, what was he supposed to do after 7x23? Dean was gone. Cas was gone. Bobby was dead. All his friends were gone, crazy or dead. Meg vanished. Crowley snatched the prophet and vanished. What was Sam supposed to do than to pack his bags and drive as far away as possible? It's not like he could LOOK for Dean. He had no idea, NO CLUES. It's not like he could count on Meg or Crowley. Yes, he could have dedicated all his time to chasing wind and coming up with crazy-ass conspiracy theories. He could have drowned himself in guilt and booze, and dedicated his life to, what, revenge? Rescue mission? rescue mission FROM WHERE exactly. For all he knew, his brother was dead. Everyone Sam ever cared for was dead. He was ALL ALONE, like Crowley said.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, adjectives.
Sam: geeky, obssessive, driven, rebel, free spirit, knowledgeable, sympathetic, proud, independent, heroic
Dean: caring, nurturing, loyal, family-orientated, protective (borders on overprotective), guilt-ridden, emotional, self-doubting, street-smart, defensive
Castiel: self-sacrificing, loyal, doubting, curious, insecure, idealistic, powerful, well-intending, sneaky, stoic
Yeah, I forgot Bobby.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Dean and Cas, I think they actually explained that well enough for me in the last episode... subconsciously, Dean knew what had really happened. His conscious mind rejected it, but in his heart, he knew that Cas had chosen to stay. That's why it seemed so dissonant... because consciously, Dean thought he'd abandoned him, but if Dean had actually abandoned him, he would've still been searching for a way back into Purgatory. It didn't make sense until we knew that Cas had actually rejected salvation because he felt this was where he needed to be right now... the dissonance was caused by Dean's faulty surface memory, not by the characters' actions, and with the correction of that memory, the characters' actions are now consistent.
I forgot geeky! Or at least something along those lines. I'm going to have to revise mine to fit that in, although I'm not 100% sure I agree that geek is the right word. I know real geeks, and Sam doesn't even come close.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with this. I have a feeling you'll have your hands full with this one. :)
ReplyDeleteBobby:resourceful,level-headed,lonely,content,sarcastic,strong-willed,kind,realist,wise
ReplyDeleteSam:smart,torn,caring,curious,resourceful,hopeful,friendly,independent
Castiel:lost,powerful,guilty,regretful,socially awkward,direct,loyal,otherworldly,knowledgeable
Dean:protective,snarky,unpredictable,dependent,loyal,stubborn,self-doubting,family-orientated,confident
This is surprisingly hard given that these are characters we've followed for years.It's gonna take a little more thinking to find some more.
Also,I wanna make clear that I chose adjectives that I think apply to each character most of the time.For example,I do think that Cas is a direct character,but I also know that during the majority of season 6 he was anything but direct.Some of these characteristics change from time to time.
That's a very cool idea,by the way.
Dean: 1. protective 2. needy 3. adorable (lol sorry, that's his adjective) 4. sad 5. smart (I always thought so,and the leviathan clone confirmed it) 6. handsome 7. goofy 8. sacrificing 9. loyal 10. funny
ReplyDeleteI'll have to think on the others.
The only problem I have with the Amelia storyline is how it's shot and blocked out. Strictly from a visual standpoint it looks awkward and jarring. Once they move that storyline to the present, without all of the ridiculously bright lights and haze effects, Amelia and her story should fit more seamlessly into the show.
ReplyDeleteSam: 1. Intelligent 2. Compassionate 3. hairy 4. puppydog eyed 5. addicted 6. sexy 7. angry 8. tall 9. rebellious 10. lonely
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't work for me. The Dean Winchester I know and love would've looked for a way to get Cas out of Purgatory AFTER Dean had escaped, even if somewhere in his subconscious he knew Cas wanted to stay in Purgatory for some self-flagellation. I'm not talking about that last moment in Purgatory, I'm talking about the couple of months since Dean got out of Purgatory. I can't believe during all that time Dean would be angry at Sam for not trying to find a way to get Dean out, while at the same time Dean is not trying to get Cas out. For example, when Dean met Samandiriel, the nice angel who was sympathetic to Cas, he could've asked him for help to get Cas out. We know angels are capable of doing it, because Naomi rescued Cas later. And Dean knows an angel, Castiel himself, rescued Dean from Hell. So it would've made sense an angel could rescue someone from Purgatory as well. I think it's OOC for Dean to not even look for ways to rescue Cas in the two months he himself has been free, and instead to pretend he was dead.
ReplyDeleteI did the same thing. I put "honest" for Cas even though he did lie during season 6.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the lighting and coloring being weird, it reminds me of the dream sequences in the dream root episode. There's a theory afoot that it is done on purpose because Sam's memories are not real memories, or something like that. In which case, they should hurry the hell up and give us some clues about what's really going on. Otherwise we're just believing the characters are out of character and the lighting is weird.
ReplyDeleteSo far so good. :) I think it's a really interesting idea, I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with!
ReplyDeleteI'm having a hard time understanding where the disconnect is between Dean's feelings about Sam walking away and Dean's feelings about Cas staying in Purgatory, to be honest. Sam didn't look, which is what Dean was hurt over. Dean looked, found, dragged Cas all the way to the exit... and Cas refused. If Sam had done that for Dean, and Dean had refused, I feel really confident in predicting that he wouldn't have been hurt about it, because it would've been a choice he made. You can track someone down at great personal risk, you can badger them into coming with you if they say they're avoiding you for your own safety, you can drag them with faith and optimism and goodwill up to the exit while they protest that it might not work and you'd be safer without them. But if, at that last moment, they say to you, "No, I don't want to go," and overpower you to push you through, that's definitive. You have to respect their wishes, I think. I don't think Dean failed Castiel at all, there, and I don't think he did the equivalent of "not looking for him." He did everything a friend could be expected to do. Just because Castiel chose differently, that doesn't reflect badly on Dean, I think.
ReplyDeleteI think that he'd wanted to be one, once upon a time. Plus, it's the best term that came to mind. Not sure how to phrase it better.
ReplyDeletebut i don't think we the viewers are supposed to believe that dean is "right" in how he acts this season. they've been setting the stage for this shift in pov since the first ep. sam's comment about free will.
ReplyDeletethis leads me to believe that they are purposefully trying to have a more balanced moral narrative between the brothers. to have dean no longer be a reliable moral standard means that we the viewers are allowed to take in all sides of the story and not just dean's.
it means that dean's memory can be called in to question, that he can be viewed as a hypocrite, and that he doesn't get to pull a "because i say so" without the story being able to call that judgement into question.
last episode made it pretty clear that dean was being a hypocrite towards sam because he was adamant about getting cas to believe his line of "i did not leave you." even though that is exactly what he did by not trying to get him out. it also called his word into question, since cas was dead because dean said so... yet that was not true at all. far from it actually.
so if we can now question dean's "rightness" then who is actually "wrong" in this season really? for so long now the default has been dean but can we really say that now?
Sam-
ReplyDeleteDriven
Independent
Heroic
Introverted
Intelligent
Compassionate
Passionate
Lonely
head strong
resourceful
I can't think of anything better either. Plus, that's what Dean calls him. But I don't think Dean has ever met a true geek. Sam's hair is too well groomed and he's too eloquent for true geekdom status, and I say that with the utmost respect to geeks everywhere. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI think the reason Cas's deceit in season 6 was so shocking was because his core is so honest. He says what's on his mind with blunt honesty.
ReplyDeleteThe flashback stares are getting old pretty quickly. I think they need to work on better transitions. The lighting hasn't bothered me other than the initial picnic scene. I think the combo of the lighting and the pink flowered dress were a little too much.
ReplyDeletephffft!
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I was very careful to make sure I had a definitive end to this - one week of nominations and four polls, and then that's it. :)
I am too! The mob has an interesting way of going in ways you don't expect, so I think the results will be interesting if we can get enough people participating.
ReplyDeleteWell, Dean didn't lie. He just said that "Cas didn't make it," which was the truth. Probably better than saying "I left him there and thought he'd die soon anyway." ;)
ReplyDeleteSam
ReplyDelete1. Compassionate
2. Stubborn
3. Brainy
4. Determined
5. Optimistic
6. Cunning
7. Ethical
8. Empathetic
9. Selfish
10. Confident
Dean
1. Nurturing
2. Self-loathing
3. Arrogant
4. Brave
5. Dependable
6. Insecure
7. Resourceful
8. Loyal
9. Charming
10. Dutiful
Castiel
1. Stoic
2. Tough
3. Selfless
4. Sincere
5. Stubborn
6. Conscientious
7. Arrogant
8. Bold
9. Courageous
10. Devoted
Bobby
1. Paternal
2. Sarcastic
3. Clever
4. Caring
5. Melancholy
6. Resourceful
7. Loyal
8. Wise
9. Compassionate
10. Loving
I don't think Dean not trying to save Cas from purgatory is the same as Sam not looking for Dean. Dean probably thought it was impossible to be rescued from purgatory, without opening a portal from the inside, or risking opening a portal from the outside, just like Cas did in season 6, and that could have brought out of purgatory not only Cas, but levis, and other monsters for sure. On top of that, even if he managed, without injuring the world in the process, he should have returned to purgatory, and look for Cas there all over again. It would have been a suicidal mission for Dean himself, and for the whole world. Moreover, the angels, as far as Dean knew were NOT able to retrieve souls, people, or angels from purgatory. Cas himself had to open the portal, making a mess of that in the meantime, in season 6, so it was perfectly reasonable to think that angels could not march straight into purgatory and rescue people like they did for Dean in hell. Sam on the other side didn't know Dean was in purgatory. If he knew, and THEN he came to term with not being able to rescue him (like Dean did when he was in the cage, and like the scenario with Dean knowing Cas was in purgatory) that would have been perfectly justifiable. And anyway, the kind of relationship between Sam and Dean is put more on the line with the sort of abandonment this kind of scenario imply. Cas and Dean dynamic is less on the codependent side and it's not hurt on the same level by one of them coming to term with living a life afar from the other. This already happened when Cas imploded in the middle of the lake in season 7. To be honest, that scenario was much more similar to Sam not looking for Dean. After all Dean didn't know for sure Cas was dead, it's not like they saw the body anyway, still, Dean, Sam and Bobby assumed he was gone, and didn't dig any deeper.
ReplyDeleteDean: playful, pessimistic, protective, self-sacrificing, loyal, reckless, brave, careing, guilt-ridden, heroic
ReplyDeleteCastiel: Heroic, self-sacrificing, naive, loyal, curious, careing, awkward, direct, innocent[to human things at least]
Sam: Smart, geeky, independent, heroic, compassionate, loyal, [more]optimistic, self-sacrificing,
Bobby: Self-reliant, loyal, fatherly, snarky, sarcastic, caring, knowledgable, helpful, direct
I do get characters evolve, Dean and Sam can't stay exactly as they were back in season one, but I don't like when they are taken completely out of character to where I think 'Dean/Sam/Cas would never do this!'. It ruins the show for me.
It's not like Dean tried to get Sam out of the cage either, though. He went and lived life with Lisa just like Sam went and lived life with Amelia.
ReplyDeleteI am thinking about the "Perception" spoiler Carver gave around SDCC. We saw a bit of Dean's perception, which was easy to anticipate because the Purgatory storyline is so rich and interesting.
ReplyDeleteBut I can't come up with the parallel Sam perception change for his Amelia story, except "rose colored glasses" and life with Amelia really sucked all along. And frankly, that's pretty boring. Unless Naomi [who I think was the one standing outside Sam's house inthe premier] has interfered with Sam in some way, but how could the angels corrupt Sam's decisions so thoroughly that he can't even see that there is a problem in how he acted?
I just wish they did a better job in developing Sam's story in the first episodes. This early version of the Sam storyline is probably the poorest of the whole 8 years. I hope I will be awed by it later when it's fleshed out.
Clownfrogg, that's incorrect. Dean did try to get Sam out of the cage - rewatch the beginning of season 6, and you'll see the scene where they addressed it.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, Cas didn't want to leave. So if he opened the portal, returned to Purgatory, found Cas, and managed to drag him back to the portal against his will, Cas would just do the same thing he did the first time... shove Dean out and stay.
ReplyDeleteDo you think you could cite a more specific reference point? I've watched that season a few times, but I don't remember Dean ever attempting to do anything other than fulfill his promise to Sam to live a normal life with Lisa and Ben.
ReplyDeleteEpisode 6.01:
ReplyDelete"Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me! A damn year? You couldn't put me out of my misery?"
Here's a link to the transcript: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=6.01_Exile_On_Main_St._(Transcript)
Sam: intelligent, empathetic, independent, self-aware, driven, issues with control and power and feeling deprived of those things for much of his life.
ReplyDeleteDean: parental, defensive, insecure, brash, self-worth issues, guilt-complex, often insensitive to others, loyal
Castiel: epic, naive, principled in some ways, ruthless in others, resolute, conflicted, conniving, tactless, goal-oriented - and that's quite the odd mix of characteristics, which is why I love him so.
Bobby: gruff, father figure... honestly I think he was under-developed as a character, he never really had an arc of his own until he died.
If they are trying to balance the POV and the moral narrative this year they are doing a really poor job of it. Yes, Dean can be seen as being a hypocrite here, but his view of Sam's actions is the only one being presented. Sam has said virtually nothing about his emotional state after Dean left. We have been shown virtually nothing about Sam's emotional state before he met Amelia. Sam is being portrayed as disconnected from Dean and not even being happy that Dean isn't dead. Dean has repeatedly told us that Sam was a bad, neglectful brother throughout the first par of this season and the writers have done NOTHING to give us any other view of Sam.
ReplyDeleteRight now we have Castiel the forgiven in advance because we are told straight up that he is being manipulated. Dean the blameless for leaving Cas in Purgatory because he has been forgiven by Castiel and told that he did nothing wrong. And then we have Sam the brother who didn't look, who Dean has NOT forgiven. In fact we have been reminded that Sam is the demon blood addict who betrayed Dean and who came back soulless and untrustworthy.
What I see is an complete assassination of Sam's character and the decision to marginalize Sam by placing him in the background, not exploring his year away from Dean and generally beating us over the head with just how bad a person Sam is. It is rapidly reaching the point where NO look at Sam will clear him, either in the eyes of Dean or of the fandom. Even if Sam is proven to have spent the past year in a mental institution or being brainwashed by angels, his character has dragged through the mud so much that many will never see him as sympathetic or even worthy to be on the show.
Dean :
ReplyDeletebrave, Playful, humorous, loyal, caring, sensitive, over protective, family oriented, a lil bit immature, and BOSSY!
Sam :
Smart, serious, stubborn, susceptible, rational, kind, emotional, obsessive, earnest, ruthless to his villains,
Castiel :
Innocent, gullible, emotionless, stoic, sincere, naive, loyal (let's forget his fault on final season 6, it's actually Sera's fault!), impressionable, idealistic, unpredictable
Bobby :
Caring, loyal, trustworthy, sarcastic, wise, realistic, helpful, knowledgeable, reliable, paternal
Seriously Cass is the hardest one to figure out his personality. Because when I heard the name of Castiel, what's on my mind are only innocent and gullible, LoL
Well exactly the sad thing is it has all been unnecessary . One characteristic of Sam is he must have the thickest skin going..
ReplyDeleteDean is cool
ReplyDeleteSam is given to many his way is more right.
Dean did not say Cas was dead, just he did not make it. He did not think he would make it alone.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on something was going on with Sam, how did he learn to do the demon spell backward??
Dean NEVER said Cas was dead, just he did not make it.
ReplyDeleteI would think about character traits for Sam and Dean, not the others. Bobby left a hurting spot in my heart, but I don't want him back. Castiel is not relevant for me so when its okay for you I would only give Sam/Dean the character traits, they are SPN IMO!
ReplyDeleteYeah and usually he's very bad at lying.
ReplyDeleteHmm.. Okay I''m writing & not looking at other comments.
ReplyDeleteSam : Hopeful, Sympathetic, Geek, Forgiving, Unpredictable, Caring, Loyal, Resourceful, Honest, Rebellious,
Dean : Loyal, Protective, Unforgiving, Stubborn, Responsible, Self Incriminating, Selfless, Sad, Funny, Angry,
Cas : Righteous, Innocence, Naive, Detached, Protective, Strong, Childlike, Unpredictable, Courageous, Devoted
Bobby : Practical, Reliable, Grumpy, Wise, Loving, Patient, Protective, Mature, Calm, Resourceful,
I think they're both just tired. Sam let go of Dean bcoz the last times both of them got reincarnated, bad things happen. Dean keeps Sam alive & he ended in hell. Sam tried to bring Dean back & then avenge Dean, he ended up with Ruby and freeing Lucifer. Sam came back after the cage, without a soul. & you know what happen to the one who freed Sam. Well, he died, come back alive, with amnesia, become crazy & then ends in purgatory. As for Dean, he just kinda tired too bcoz he felt Cas didn't try hard enough.
ReplyDeleteHow are you going to deal with adjectives that are synonyms or very close in meaning? Are you going to count them as the same thing?
ReplyDeleteGood question. I've been thinking about that too. I'm inclined to make some judgment calls on this and combine words that have almost identical meaning, but leave separate terms that a slight difference in meaning. For example, I would combine smart and intelligent, but leave geeky separate because it has a different connotation.
ReplyDeleteThis will depend on what the data looks like, but I expect I might have to run a quick round of polls for run-off spots (i.e., if we have two final spots open but five words with an equal number of votes). When I run the runoff polls, I may ask for feedback on at least the more borderline calls. I'm hoping though that with enough submissions, certain trends will emerge and there won't be too many controversial calls. I only need to deal with combining terms if the term is borderline on making into into the poll or may split the poll results.
Thanks! :)
ReplyDeletehe allowed people to assume that he was dead. it's the same thing. it's called lying by omission.
ReplyDeleteso yeah he never said he was dead but he framed "he didn't make it" in ways that led people to believe he was dead and then never corrected or provided additional information to negate their assumption.
leaving out important facts to misrepresent a situation is lying by omission.
sam flat out asked if cas was dead and dean never said anything to make him believe otherwise. he didn't make it is not the same as i don't know or probably. which carries the same level of possible death but leans more on the possibility of him being alive just as much as dead.
add that to the fact that the dean who has been making a fuss over sam not looking for him was notably NOT looking for a way to get cas out of purgatory leads one to assume that cas didn't make it out not cause he is not alive. sam, and others beside benny, don't have the benefit of seeing what happened in purgatory or spoilers of his return. so when dean says cas didn't make it it's the same as saying he is dead in the context of those conversations.
Sam asked him if he saw him die and Dean said he saw enough. Dean truly thought Cas would be dead.
ReplyDeleteWord to your whole post. By holding off "Sam's storyline" (AGAIN!) until the after the break (unless there's some gobstopping "Sam revelations" in 8.09) who will care if any of your scenarios is correct because the (MORE!) damage has already been done.
ReplyDeleteOne way to "make Sam look" marginally better (after the break) is to have Dean make more mistakes in either actions or decision making and I don't want the writers to "write" Dean intentionally "worse" just to have Dean keep Sam company in the doghouse. That's not the show I have been supportive and passionate about for over seven years.
I honestly don't see them ever making Dean look bad for any reason, let alone to make Sam look less bad. TPTB have settled on Dean the righteous man who is the brother whose emotions we should care about and Sam the screw up. I don't see that changing.
ReplyDeleteI actually have a lot of problems with Dean's behavior, but the show is adamant that Dean is good and Sam is not. I'm sick to death of it, and unless this season surprises me greatly, I may not be around for next season. Ungrateful, unworthy or love Sam is repulsive to me, especially with Dean the good and Castiel the misunderstood. I'm reaching my limit.
and yet he failed to mention that, as of his last memory of cas, he was alive. he didn't propose they try to find a way to get him out either which would put forth the implication that he was alive. it seems highly hypocritical of him since he basically didn't bother to see if there was an angel specific way to get cas out now that he is topside yet he had been yelling at sam for not looking. at least sam had the benefit of not knowing where exactly dean was.
ReplyDeleteand this is with the first episode showing that presumably from the time cas left him till dean's first appearance he had been looking for cas with NO proof that he was alive then either. add that to the rest of the flashbacks with him going on and on about not leaving cas and no one is left behind.
so, i'm supposed to assume that dean didn't bother to look for a way to get cas out, didn't bother to tell samandiriel that cas was still alive last he saw him in purgatory, and chose to subvert any implication of castiel being alive by remaining silent or vague because "he truly thought cas would be dead"? even though he was very much alive, though tired, and had managed to stay alive by himself before dean found him. that the only thing shown to us that cas was running from he could avoid so long as he could stay "one step ahead of them".
nah, not buying that. unless both their memories have been tampered by the angels, which is highly possible, then so far what happened stands. and with that i personally can't buy that dean would believe that cas was dead.
Sam: kindhearted, faithful, compassionate, persistent, optimistic, educated, smart, stubborn, strong, brave
ReplyDeleteDean: loyal, adventarous, pessimistic, funny, disrespectful, angry, unforgiving, bossy, playful, condemning
I had never noticed before that Sam was optimistic and Dean was pessimistic. Great observation! Sam is always saying "We can do this!" and Dean is always saying "We can't do this, but we're going to go out fighting anyway."
ReplyDeleteI had the same problem with Castiel, he's more of a mystery. I also discounted his behavior in season 6 because he wasn't acting like himself, but at least he had good reasons: he did it with good intentions, to stop Raphael from starting Apocalypse 2.0 and once he had all the Purgatory souls inside him their power took him over. I can forgive him for the same reasons I can forgive Sam in season 4. He also had good intentions because he did it to stop Lilith from starting the Apocalypse, and once he had demon blood in him its power took him over. And like I can forgive Dean for how he acted in Hell: he went with the good intentions of saving Sammy, and once he had endured 30 years of torture, he can't be blamed for breaking and doing the torture himself. I can only hope we get similar good reasons for how Sam and Dean have been acting this season.
ReplyDelete"I do get characters evolve, Dean and Sam can't stay exactly as they were
ReplyDeleteback in season one, but I don't like when they are taken completely out
of character to where I think 'Dean/Sam/Cas would never do this!'. It
ruins the show for me."
I so completely agree!!! Characters are the most important thing to me, in some ways the only important thing. I can't enjoy the best plot in the world if I can't connect with the characters. And when that connection is broken, it breaks the spell, it jolts me out of the story, because I'm sitting there thinking "That's not the character I know and love!" instead of being captivated by what will happen to the character next.
Dean didn't remember that Cas didn't want to leave, and even if he did, that wouldn't stop him from trying. Sam didn't want to be saved from the demon blood, from the Cage, or from Hallucifer when he was killing Sam in the PsychWard, and that didn't stop Dean from trying, just like Dean not wanting to be saved in Faith, from his deal, or from Hell stopped Sam from trying. And if he did manage to get Cas to the portal, he would've made sure to shove Cas through first.
ReplyDeleteMy problem is with the double standard in the way it was presented. Some people are making excuses for both Sam and Dean, and that's fair enough. Some people, like me, are buying the excuses for neither Sam nor Dean. The excuses are just as solid or flimsy (depending on your perception) on either side. Sam didn't even know where Dean had gone so where does he even start looking, or Sam figured Dean was in Purgatory and wouldn't want Sam to take the risk of releasing the monsters, or Sam thought Dean was dead, or Sam was too devastated by grief. Dean knew the portal was too risky, or Dean thought Cas was dead, or Dean was too devastated by guilt.
ReplyDeleteAnd my issue is not with whether or not they had the means to rescue, it's that they didn't even TRY. They would've at least TRIED, even if they didn't have the apparent means to succeed. Neither Sam nor Dean are the kind of guys to go "Well, I can't see how to save him right at the moment, so let's just say he's dead and go get a girlfriend/cheeseburger." It's completely out of character for both of them.
But as for the points you brought up, the door Cas opened in season 6 and the portal Dean went through are two completely different things. Purgatory is built to keep monsters in but to let humans out. The door Cas opened went against that and the whole purpose was to let the monsters out so he could swallow their souls. The portal Dean used was built in by God to allow humans out of Purgatory without letting the monsters out. Presumably angels in human vessels as well, seeing as angels don't belong in Purgatory any more than humans do. So same goes with the point about angels being able to rescue another angel from Purgatory--they wouldn't have to open a door like Cas did because they're not trying to let the monsters out. Evidently Naomi managed it without unleashing the Levi again.
And anyway, what could it have hurt for Dean to at least ask Samandiriel? Why wouldn't he at least ask when he's got a friendly angel standing right in front of him? This brings me back to my point that for me the reason they are written so out of character is that neither of them even TRIED. I really hope it's because Naomi pulled a Jedi Angel Mind Trick on both of them.
how is Sam selfish?
ReplyDeleteDean
ReplyDeletereliable
Needy
Hypocritical
Martyr
self pitying
resourceful
loving
protective
unforgiving
heroic
Negative attributes are allowed. This is just an exercise to figure what the most common perceptions are. If an opinion isn't widely held, it won't get many nominations or votes and won't go very far.
ReplyDeleteThat's a really good point!
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point, if he hasn't been hunting at all in a year, how did he learn a new demon spell?
ReplyDeleteYou're right he didn't come right out and say Cas was dead, but he did strongly imply it and let Sam believe he was dead.
SAM: So Cas is dead? You saw him die?
DEAN: I saw enough.
SAM: So, then what, you're not sure?
DEAN: I said I saw enough, Sam.
Maybe that was Dean's survivor guilt talking. But I wish they hadn't written it this way. I wish they had written him saying "Cas is still there and we have to find a way to get him out!"
Wow, that's a really interesting take on things, poptart. I really hope the writers do have a plan as thinky as yours. It does fit with what @lauinla from Huffpost tweeted from the set recently, that they will be dealing with Sam's POV in the second half of the season.
ReplyDeleteSadly, it doesn't change the fact that until the plan is revealed, I'm still going to have a hard time enjoying the show because I'm not seeing the characters I know and love. But if at least there is a thinky plan behind it, I can forgive it in retrospect, and maybe enjoy the season more on second viewing. So long as my beloved characters are redeemed in the end.
But I think writers should keep in mind, if they're playing a long game like this and it'll take the whole season for the big picture to become clear, that they're asking the viewers to sit through it for months and months, waiting and worrying, instead of just enjoying the show. And that's asking a lot, even of loyal fans. The writers themselves know what the big picture is, they know all the reasons and the reveals, so they themselves don't have to worry about it. But they should remember to see things through the viewers' eyes, the viewers who don't have all the answers. Then they might realize how easy it is from that POV to assume the writers are simply writing the characters out of character, rather than executing some big brilliant plan, if they don't give us any clues there is a big brilliant plan.
This plays in to what I was saying above, that if the writers truly are playing a long game and Sam's POV will only be explored in the second half of the season, then they are failing to take into account how the viewers will see it and react to it all those months in the mean time.
ReplyDeleteI hadn't thought about it, but I believe you're right that there may be irreparable damage. I'm seeing a lot of fans (who were not formerly Sam bashers) now saying they HATE Sam. And they're absolutely condemning him and trashing him. And even if there is a reveal that absolves Sam down the road, after months and months of HATING him, can they ever find their way back to liking him?
I'm protected from having that reaction, because I'm not seeing Sam and Dean right now. These aren't the characters I love, and I'm going to place the blame on the writers, rather than on the characters.
Oh, I totally blame the writers for all of my discontent. For me the problem is the extreme OOCness of Dean and even more so for Sam is leaving me angry and disconnected from the show. Dean's actions can be excused or explained by extreme PTSD. Sam's actions could be explained or excused if the writers spent any time at all trying to show Sam's mindset or give him an understandable reason other than Sam is a bad brother who doesn't love Dean enough, which is what Dean believes.
ReplyDeleteI hope the writers had a plan here, but honestly it has taken so long to implement it, if there is one, that I feel it is too late. Sam has been neglected at best and trashed at worse. The brotherhood has been smashed beyond recognition. I can't express how terribly unhappy I am with the way this season is progressing on the Sam side of the equation.
Indeed Dean's actions in Purgatory were indeed heroic and commendable and everything I would expect from Dean. But why the sudden change once he was out? He didn't remember that Cas had chosen to stay, for starters. But even if he did remember it, Dean would never be okay with letting Cas suffer alone in Purgatory until the Levi managed to kill him sooner or later. If a friend picks up a gun and says "I deserve to die" than you try to talk them out of it or you try to get the gun away from them. Dean wouldn't say "okay then, it's your choice, go ahead and kill yourself." Sam didn't want to be saved from the Cage, from the demon blood, from Hallucifer and that didn't stop Dean from trying.
ReplyDeleteThe fact Dean tried so hard to save Cas in Purgatory only illustrates how out of character it is for Dean to suddenly stop trying to save him once he is out of Purgatory. Sam has also gone to very great lengths to save Dean in the past, and his sudden total inaction is also very out of character. And it's out of character for Dean to as good as lie about Cas being dead when he wasn't, and to blame Sam for not looking while Dean himself is not looking.
I hear you. If they do have a plan, they definitely are dragging it out way too much, and from the sounds of things, it will be dragged out all season. And even if there is a big plan at the end, what was the point of all this? What was the point of trashing our favorite characters and the brotherhood, just so they could yell "Psyche!" after months of leaving us waiting and worrying? Carver keeps saying "we're playing with perceptions." Well, I don't want my perceptions played with. I want to enjoy my show.
ReplyDeleteThe double standard makes totally sense to me, because I still don't see the two scenarios as the same. Sam didn't know where Dean was or what happened to him, and didn't try to find out. Dean knew where Cas was and knew there wasn't a safe way to rescue him. He didn't try and open a portal or try and make deals with angels when Sam was in the cage either. Sam should have try to know what happened to Dean, and THEN come to terms with not being able to save him. Dean had just to come to terms with the second part of the process. That's my opinion. You may argue that Dean didn't try and open the cage for Sam, but at least he made researches for a way to rescue him, and you're right, but again, I love love love Cas, and Dean loves him and we all know that, but surely Cas is not Sam and there's not the same level of urgency and codependency that lead the Cas and Dean dynamic as it is for the Dean and Sam's one (Dean doing researches the whole year he was alone without Sam was probably more a coping mechanism than a real thing, 'cause I think he knew Sam was gone for good unless he didn't compromise himself with angels or demons). So .. if Dean left Sam behind in purgatory I'd may be with you on the blame Dean on the same level of Sam train, but as it is, I can't really put Dean didn't trying and destroy the world/trusting random angels in order to rescue Cas and Sam didn't trying to find out where Dean was on the same level. (Dean himself is upset with Sam not because he didn't rescue him, but because he didn't *look* for him. In 801 he says, about Sam normal life, "After you looked for me. Did you look for me, Sam?". He surely didn't wanted his brother to spend the rest of his life searching for a way to rescue him from purgatory and making deals with demons, angels or anything, but he figured he would at least try to know what happened to him). Dean never left Sam behind. Sam, this time, did. That's what bothers me from a brothers relationship POV and for the continuity of the show. Anyway, I've always loved Sam and understood where he came from throughtout the past seasons, even when almost the entire fandom didn't and I'm looking forward to know the reasons why he acted like he did, so I can understand his motivations this time around as well, hopefully.
ReplyDeleteI want to clear up that I'm not saying Dean should be "blamed on the same level." I'm saying they're both being written out of character, but at least in Sam's case the writers are acknowledging that Sam did something wrong, whereas there is no acknowledgement that Dean did anything wrong. That's the double standard I'm talking about. As much as I'm worried about Sam, I'm now even more worried about Dean, because I'm not even sure the writers realize what they did, and thus have even less hope they will justify it and redeem him later.
ReplyDeleteThis I'm not seeing the same way as you: "...knew there wasn't a safe way to rescue him. He didn't try and open a portal or try and make deals with angels when Sam was in the cage either."
How does Dean know there wasn't a safe way to rescue Cas when he didn't even look for a safe way to rescue Cas? We were given absolutely no indication that trying to get Cas out would "destroy the world." We know for a fact the portal was safe because it doesn't let monsters out, and we know for a fact the angels could safely get another angel out. And we don't know what exactly Dean did or did not try during his year with Lisa. All we know is that he tried, and from the way he talks about it, he was willing to try anything. He says "trying to find ANYTHING to bust you out."
Dean: I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me!
We're on the same page where Sam and the brotherly relationship is concerned, and like you I really really hope they give us a good reason for his behavior. The only difference is, I also need a good reason for Dean's behavior. No matter how it measures up next to Sam's, it doesn't measure up to what I know and love about Dean. I want both of them to be written like the heroes they are. They risk their lives and sacrifice everything to save total strangers. Neither of them would ever leave a brother or a friend for dead.
I would have liked the we need to find a way to save Cas, except then the fans would not have had the suspense of is he dead or not. Can't make a show into "real" life or it would be boring. I watch the show for things like Cas missing all the good story telling stuff, but that is just my way of watching my favorite show.
ReplyDeleteI doubt it, too, that the show will ever make Dean look worse. OTOH, how can the show just long can show make Sam look worse and worse (alluding to the recent expanded 8.09 description which has caused more pitchforks to be waved at Sam than praise for wanting to make damn sure his brother isn't being duped by his supernatural friend based on his experience with Ruby) to make Dean look like the most suffering, devalued character in the history of TV?
ReplyDeleteA good showrunner would know when to "breaks on" for a deliberately planned main character "destruction" ("Sam not looking for Dean") - for sensible fans, at least - without having to also destroy the other main character (Dean) just to even things out. When the show comes back with episodes that more of "Sam's year off", will the majority of online fans (those who did not accept Sam's explanstion as we've been shown - *absolutely no disrepect to those who did*) will be satisfied with "Sam's side"?
If I was JC/the writer, I'd have Dean sit Sam down in 8.08 or 8.09 and him tell Sam that he always knew deep down that Cas was still alive but his conscious mind refused to believe Cas could be alive - so he didn't look for him and he understood if Sam really, really thought he was dead Sam wouldn't look for him either. (I'm entirely taking out Cas's recalling events differently and letting Dean off the guilt train as irrelevant)). Nothing in Dean's now accepting "why Sam didn't look for him" refutes any of the "New Canon" from the premiere that has SamnDean always agreeing *not* to look for each other and then always broke that rule.
The danger (or not, if you're a fan who's always accepted Sam's reasons) is depending on how Sam reacts to Dean's understanding potentially ties the writer's hands in having there be much more active stuff to the story than Sam told Amelia in 8.06; Sam just looked away in the premiere when Dean asked him if he looked and in 8.09 it's a rather solid spec that Sam checked himself into a mental hospital like Martin did for "a few months" after losing Dean. I don't know about you but I would be very disappointed if that's all Sam did before hitting the dog and Sam did more than just play at normal with Amelia for the balance of his year off and hope after the break we get more hints that he did more.
That's what I'm extremely worried about - and this goes back to will many fans even care by then. It was one thing to be "shocked" with how Sam was "juicing up" in 4.16 but at least there were clues planted in many episodes before the S4 winter break and in S8 besides the *possibility* of Sam's recall being tampered with too in 8.07 there's only 8.02 with the quickly performed reverse exorcism and *possibly* more than the usual tension between Crowley and Sam (You can't kill all of my black-eyed boys, Samantha). I just don't want there to be a huge letdown for "Sam's S8 storyline" that there was in S7.
I know we're getting a least one Sam/Amelia flashback in 8.09 and I don't know the content but it's clear from surfing a couple sites that the majority on online that ,ore than a few fans can stand Amelia - she's still too bitchy and hyper and not that sympathetic yet. This could be intentional on the showrunners and writers part thus far but unless something dramatic changes in 8.09 I don't have much hope for the "Sam/Amelia" sl.
If JC doesn't do "something" early in 2013 to make Sam's "decision" look a little more sympathetic (again, those who always felt Sam's decision was perfectly understandable not included) I will also not watch S9; if there any "bombs" to be dropped - like from Ruby/Sam in 4.10 and Ruby/Sam in 4.16 - that is hints that there's far more to the story than we learn in 8.09 - than I can wait until post 8.10
I am disappointed, too - especially as the "Sam of 8.07" was so little like the Sam of the rest of the episodes, outside of his sheer delight at seeing Cas alive, that is, but that's at least consistent with how the writers have always dealt with Sam - Cas interactions; even soulless Sam had some respect for Cas.
ReplyDeleteWell said, particularly if it's just Sam who stays painted in a negative light; Dean *appeared to be* hypocritical in not mounting a rescue for Cas - when it was ultimately revealed that Cas was alive and just chose not to be rescued - but even before that "Sam"(8.07) said he knew Dean had tried as hard as could to save Cas.
ReplyDeleteme to I am so sick of it. if the writers do not come up with something for sam and why he is so OOC but I think he is not but everyone else saids he is something happen in that year that made him do what he did and the writers are taking to long to tell us because they only care about dean's story and I like you are reaching my limit the writers need to do something about it or I am done.
ReplyDeleteyou are so right. thank you I been try to say that too what could he have done but everyone tell OH he can look at bobby's books or other stuff like that and I am like WHAT? sam did not even know were dean is come on I am so sick of people saying that to me it really sucks.
ReplyDeleteTodays' the last day to get nominations in. I'm going to tweek my nominations for Sam and Cas to these instead. Dean and Bobby are staying the same.
ReplyDeleteSam: Independent, Resourceful, Empathetic, Driven, Questioning, Introverted, Lonely, Optimistic, Control issues, Intellectual
Cas: Questioning, Curious, Loyal, Honest, Blunt, Wanting structure, Literal, Rigid, Compassionate, Stubborn
Just to clarify, you want me enter my original nominations a second time as your vote?
ReplyDeleteI'll third this. The Walking Dean is my favorite show at the moment, and they do such a great job of evolving the characters in a gradual and believable way, while keeping the core of who the characters are intact. That's what I want to see here. I want to not even have to think about characterization because major, character-changing events like Hell or Purgatory are handled so seamlessly that I believe every moment.
ReplyDeleteSorry, english is not my first language, I may not manage to express my thinking correctly, but what I wanted to say when a wrote about "blame" was that I completely get why they are using double standards with Dean and Sam and that's because it really isn't the same thing in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteYes Sam and Dean are heroes, and yes they wouldn't leave anybody, even a random stranger behind, so they totally wouldn't leave Cas behind, especially Dean, but this is not the case because Dean wouldn't risk so much to rescue Cas, or anybody else. For exemple, both Sam and Dean left Adam in the cage, and I mean, he was their brother after all, but they promised each other they'd stop risking their own soul or the well being of the whole world to get each other back from hell, purgatory or wherever they might be, (THAT's the promise they made, not that they wouldn't LOOK for each other if they went missing by the way, and that's one of the things that bothers me the most, cause this promise has been distorted at the beginning of this season - they just promised that they would fight the john winchester's style and not the demonesque/magic style as in Dean wouldn't sell his soul, or Sam didn't try and make deals with demons) so it makes even more sense that the same promise apply to others other than each other. Cas was in purgatory and there was no way he could be saved the winchester's style as I see it. Dean, in the best case scenario, would have had to ask angelic help (and Sam and Dean don't trust them just like they don't trust demons), so there is really nothing he could do in my opinion aside from maybe going throught some books (like he did when Sam was in the cage, but again, Cas is not Sam, and being without him didn't leave Dean reeling and lost like when he was with Ben and Lisa - and I'm sure his looking for a way to save his brother was a coping mechanism more than a real chance in trying to rescue him. I'm sure he knew on some level Sam was gone, but couldn't come to term with that and couldn't admit it, like he did with Cas being in purgatory, apart from the ordinary guilt). Sam on the other hand didn't know if there was something he could do 'cause he didn't know what happened to Dean and I still can't bring myself to really buy that he could just live with this weight on his shoulders, no matter how broken he was.
So, IMO angels were not an option in rescuing Cas, cause they are not to trust, and the portal could be open only from the inside. It would have made sense seeing Dean look for other ways if was Sam in purgatory, because saving each other goes beyond the normal kind of heroes they are. But being Cas, as much as he is important to Dean, I understand that he sort of came to term with that. Just like they didn't try and find a way to rescue Adam, or more on the same level of family, like they didn't try and find a way to make Bobby corporeal again when he was a ghost (they reasonably thought there wasn't a way, but couldn't be sure, and that's the same thing with Cas - What I mean is that they try and save others, and members of their family, inside the reasonable boundaries of common sense. It's just for each other that they are willing to find "unreasonable" ways, so Dean not trying to find a way to rescue Cas is reasonable. Not so much Sam not trying to find out what happened to his brother).
I hope I wrote in some kind of correct english, nice chatting with you though ;)