OMG, I'm laughing so hard at the tone on the Supernatural part. This woman has been reading way too many emails from Dean girls. I bet she's the one who asked Misha if he hates Sera Gamble.
I, for one, like the way they wrote the 'spolier' it for SPN. I like Dean having a storyline that doesn't involve saving Sam, and I like that Sam finally has a grown up storyline that doesn't involve him doing something he has to make amends for. If they can have separate storylines that both feed the season mythology, but still work together while rebuilding their brotherly relationship, I'm happy. :) Bring on season 8!
Adding to what I said, does anyone know if she even watches Supernatural? She just sounds like she's quoting line and verse from the DeanGirl/SamHaters club without realizing that what she's saying doesn't make any sense. The only time Sam was the "middleman" in Dean's story was in seasons 2 and the first half of season 6. Season 1 was about finding their dad and unraveling the mystery around what killed their mother, season 3 was about saving Dean, season 4 was about stopping the breaking of the seals (which Dean started without Sam's help), season 5 was about stopping the Apocalypse, the second half of season 6 was about the Cas/Crowley/Purgatory plan, and season 7 was about the Leviathans.
I don't know if she actually watches the show but she's one of the only journalists to give a crap about SPN. She gives us actual spoilers and decent interviews. Without her we'd be stuck with hacks like Ausiello and Kristin.
Yeah a few weeks ago Mo Ryan from the Huffington Post reported that Amanda is definitely pregnant http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/revenge-abc_n_1708130.html
"and I like that Sam finally has a grown up storyline that doesn't involve him doing something he has to make amends for"
You're right. Having hallucinations and letting his girlfriend be killed in season 1 were really childish actions. And being killed by Jake in season 2 was something he needed to make amends for. And wanting to save Dean in season 3 was something he should really feel sorry for. And using his powers to stop Lilith was the mark of immaturity. And then going to Hell to save the world was a bad thing. And letting his hell crash down on him in seasons 6 and 7 was really selfish of him. It's time he grows up.
I don't understand why people are upset about the wording of the spn spoiler. I think people are projecting a lot of fandom nonsense onto the journalist that probably isn't there. Fact is, it will be interesting to see both Sam and Dean have storylines that don't revolve around each other.
I don't really care which brother has a direct connection to the mytharc as long as both have layered, active storylines that keep them growing and busy all season long. When Dean's storyline involved Lisa and Ben, he also had a lot else going on - figuring out the mystery behind Cas's odd behavior, the Cambells and the alphas; getting his brother's soul back; hunting down and killing the mother of all monsters; and then dealing with the betrayal by his best friend; and trying to talk Cas down. It's been a few seasons since Sam had much going on that didn't get pushed to the sidelines shortly into the season. The Amelia storyline sounds great, but it can't be the only thing going on with Sam this season. If Dean has the richer backstory, then Sam needs to take the more central role with the main present-day arc, the way Dean always did when Sam was struggling with his own issues. The one thing JC needs to do is to restore some balance to this show.
By throwing in comments like this, she's legitimizing that fandom nonsense. Normally I wouldn't care, but you have people like Robert Singer echoing that fandom nonsense with comments like "Sam had the brunt of the emotional arc" in a season in which Sam's emotional struggles were barely seen, then it raises alarms.
Sam clearly has no role in the show's mythology this year. Or at least nothing that is important enough to pretend about. You can say whatever you want about Sera, but at least she had Dean exploring what was wrong with Sam and the Campbell, actively looking for Sam's soul, and trying to stop the Mother of All. Even in the seventh season, they pretended to give Dean a 13-episode story arc. Now, Sam down to maintaining a relationship while Dean digs further into the mythology of the season. What a joke for the Sam fans?
Sam barely had a story last season and now, everyone wants to pretend that Sam is the stupid middleman for Dean's connection to the story? Um, hello, you have NEVER wondered what Dean point of view was and he ALWAYS had a connect to the mythology. He just wasn't "special" enough. Which angers me, because Dean has always be a MAJOR player in the game just some random guy drag in by his brothers' trouble. Way to undercut his character. This is just an independent storyline, but it has been done. Dean's deal, Dean breaking the first seal, Dean being Michael's vessel, and Dean's hell have all been Dean's storylines. It is the first time in while Dean has been connected to the mythology, but it's NOT the first.
I don't understand when Dean wasn't connected to the mythology he still had point of view, but Sam didn't and apparently, doesn't. Or at least the joking at Van Con is that we need to write in letters for more Sam. So, what? The only thing I like about this spoiler is that the brothers are going to be together sort of. At least if Dean's onscreen, Sam has a 40% chance of showing up.
I'm not really a polarized SPN fan. I just think the wording of the spoiler was really odd. When has Sam ever mediated Dean's interaction with the show's mythology? And considering the show has pretty much nothing outside of the mythology at this point, it feels very much like saying Sam's being shunted away from the story. That can't possibly be true, but it was so pointedly written that I am just perplexed as what was really intended.
I think it could have been worded a whole lot better but the end result is that this spoiler works for me. I like the idea of Dean being actually tied into the mythology instead of being peripherally tied into it. I think it's good that Sam will have other characters in his life. Not sure I'm going to like the end result of it though since being the character most tied to the mytharc tends to leave that character hated in the fandom.
It's a bit early to be saying that Sam has NO tie to the mythology this year. We don't know that and the Supernatural PTB have always held back key parts of the season from us during hellatus. I also didn't get the implication that she was saying that we've never had a story line for Dean, just that it's been awhile. To be honest, it's been awhile for both brothers to have a major story line that ties them personally to the mytharc. Dean had no character arc at all last year and Sam barely had one some of the time. The idea that they will both have a separate story line and yet still work as a functioning, competent team sounds highly unlikely but good to me.
The article was very poorly written, so much so that I'm beginning to think it was supposed to cause massive fan outcry and therefore more hits for the website. Carver said he was scaling back the mythology for this season (yeah), so I'm not sure we can say that there is nothing else to the show. Also there were a lot of episodes that weren't directly tied to the mythology last year as people keep harping about. Obviously Sam will be important to the story and will have a role in whatever the mythology turns out to be. However, I do think there have been times where Dean's connection to the mytharc has mostly been through Sam, especially in season 2. I don't particularly worry about that myself. Sam has tended to get the strong mytharc tie while Dean got the point-of-view. It sounds like this season they are reversing that, which is exactly what the so called "Dean fans" and "Sam fans" having been grousing about for years now. Let's hope getting what they want doesn't lead to still disgruntled fans.
I assume you are talking about the Supernatural spoiler. If so, I can't say for sure that Cadlymac is still watching SPN but she was definitely watching it earlier. I followed her tweets for awhile and she was watching at that time.
well what I have been reading is more a dean season ok and I am not pissed off buy it at all. but its going to end up bad because it allways does I hate the dean lieing part of it again wow does this happen every season dean lies to sam about something sam does it to but not as much as dean does I think the big one was working with ruby and the DB but not many. And dean working with this benny vampire well thats going to end well NOT! It will suck to leave sam in the sideline as you guys say but I will like the fact that he will have a nomal life with the girl for a litte bit I can not wait to see that. And if the lie comes out well we just have to see if the guy can stay together after that.
You are right that it is earlier to say that Sam has no tie to the mythology. But I'm annoyed between the jokes of Jared not having at lot of filming and now spoilers saying that Dean is digging deeper into the mythology, while Sam just "maintains" his relationship that just a few weeks ago was already over with. I want for Sam to have a clear voice and point of view. I want to have spoilers that say that Sam does have other things to deal with. I think it's already been made clear that Dean connects to the mythology. I'm not looking for the keys parts of the season; however, I'm looking for something more than Sam and Dean will have relationship outside their brotherhood and Dean is up to keeping secrets while Sam has a love interest. Those aren't exactly the most thrilling spoilers.
I'm 100% with you, I mean we know almost nothing about the ''main quest'' yet, except its about a power source, a search for it...just cause Dean is tie to the purgatus part of the mythologie, there's absolutely nothing saying that Sam will have nothing important to do in the rest
At this point (just like most years) I think the PTB would be best served to not share any more spoilers at all, although to be honest there is nothing new in this spoiler either. Fans get increasingly agitated the longer hellatus goes on and this one is longer than most so people are already overly tense. A spoiler hiatus might cool everyone down a bit.
I think that's a good idea for the show not to release any spoilers until mid-September. Jared confirmed at Van Con that Sam didn't abandon Dean and that those spoilers are being massively misinterpreted. I don't remember ever getting this upset over spoilers or ever reading about the actors saying that the interpretations were flat out wrong. Add that with the new showrunner and coming of two disappointing seasons. I really think the show could do a whole lot of good, by not messing with the fandom. However, it's really difficult to get the websites to stop trying to print whatever spoilers or information they think is true or they know will cause trouble by playing to one side or stating it a certain way. Supernatural stuff get a lot of hits and comments, so it's impossible to have a true Supernatural spoiler hiatus or a true spoiler. Maybe the show could focus on something the brothers are working on together, something little on Cas, and simply Sam that has his own monsters (or demons) to deal with (something other than the love interest stuff) spoilers. If you can't beat the gossip sites, maybe it's time for the PTB to try to spin it their way. There are so many ways now days that they can get information out, so it's not impossible for them to do that.
Anything they put out as a spoiler at this time will make some section mad and will be twisted around and misinterpreted by the rest. It's a lose-lose situation.
Agreed, Dean is always just another part of Sam's storyline, it's time he got his own. Though what I'm really wondering is about Cas... I really hope he didn't abandon Dean in Pulgatory.
Well, he did keep his abilities a secret and want out throughout season 1... Sam really didn't look at the bigger picture. I'm a bit fuzzy on season 2 but Sam really should have known better than to trust a DEMON, thought out season 3 and 4, he also should have realized he was addicted to the demon blood, like any other drug, and should have listened to Dean especially after Cas said "Stop him, or we'll have to." Sam started the apocalypse... unknowingly yes, but he does seem to do many things unknowingly or for the right intensions, but the result remains the same... Supernatural is Sam-centric at many times, but it kinda balances out because Dean's still the hero, he saves Sam throughtout the seasons from nearly every monster they encounter, not to mention when he pulled him out of the burning apartment, sold his soul to bring him back to life, spent all of season four trying to save him.... Dean is the big brother and usually ends up saving the day... Still glad he's getting his own storyline though.
When its Deans storylines Sam tends to get cut out when its Sams sls Dean is central to everything he gets more pov and episodes than Sam does.
Of course the idea of separate sls will give us twice the storytelling is a nice one but the show doesnt give Sam that sort of storytelling.They didnt care to want to continue with Sams cage sl so they fixed him and now he gets a love story which will be flashbacks and no real connection to the present.We saw with Lisa you cant give much time to these type of sls which is why Dean was involved with so much else.Will they do the same here for Sam? because a on/off romance with Amelia isnt going to do much for Sam all season .
I definately dont have a problem with separate storyline for Sam and Dean. I just want Sam's to be as significant on and off screen as Dean's is. Sam away from the mythology isnt a bad thing, he'll still hunt but now he gets a chance to work on having something outside of hunting. Maybe setting up a future for himself. Besides it sounds like Dean is going to be getting into trouble this season, I'm hoping this is his version of Sam's season 4. One would hope that Sam would have the POV as Dean did in season 4 but it seems that season 8 will have Dean have the mythology and the POV.
First of all, Dean has kept about as many secrets as Sam over the years. He lied to Sam at the beginning of season 2 about what his father told him about Sam. He lied to Sam about Sam dying/Dean selling his soul at the end of season 2 until Sam guessed the truth. He didn't tell Sam and Bobby that he was having Hell visions in the season 3 finale until Bobby guessed it. When he and Bobby went after Cas in the season 4 opener, he told Sam some story (I think it was that he was getting a beer with Bobby). He lied about remembering Hell in season 4. He lied about Amy in season 7. And it sounds like he'll be doing more lying in season 8.
He's also trusted demons more than Sam has. Whereas Sam has only trusted Ruby, Dean trusted the first demon who he sold his soul to (he might have guessed that there was more to the deal than the demon was disclosing). Dean came to trust Ruby for a short period of time. Dean argued for trusting and working with Crowley in season 5. Dean trusted Meg and Crowley enough to work with them (and for Meg to keep Cas safe) in season 7. He also tried to stop Sam from killing the demon in Sin City.
You're saying Sam should have trusted what the angels were saying in season 4? Really?
As for whether the show is Sam-centric, I'm don't see it. There have been individual storylines that have been Sam-centric, but Dean has always been the most visible hero of the story, and it's been more of a family story than an individual's story.
I'm getting tired of hearing people say that SPN has been Sam's storyline because it's been a family's storyline. This all started with Mary. John was the focus of season 1, Sam because the focus in season 2, and then Dean became the focus in season 3. Dean started the breaking of the seals and Sam finished it off. Dean was Michael's vessel, Sam was Lucifer's.
One of the big problems with the argument that Dean should have his own storyline that doesn't involve Sam is that you're arguing that the Dean should have his own storyline that doesn't involve family. Family has always been at the crux of show, and the show becomes something different if it's no longer centered around brothers and family.
Don't think it's all the fault of the spoilers. There never was any anywhere confirming that Sam abandon Dean, it was a couple of person who decided to jump to the worse case scenario conclusion and freak out no matter how many others person told them that it's hasn't been confirm
Like the whole huge fight last year over 3 lines about The girl next door or with 90% others spoilers. Most of the others shows, the fandom is reading the spoilers they have and don't start to write the worse scenario in their head
Dean's secrets usually aren't as bad as Sam's. Yes, Dean did. But can you plan him? "Hey Sammy, our father said I might have to kill you, either he hates you, or your some sort of monsterous freak!" Dean lied about selling his soul for about half the episode. Who got harmed in the process? Dean knew what he was dealing with was strong(strong enough to drag him out of Hell and leave a burn mark) of course he didn't want Sam to worry, mostly likely he also didn't want his little brother in the line of fire. It's like a parent protecting a child. No one got hurt. But when Sam lies, the world breaks. He does, right out lie to Dean's face, while Dean usually just omits the truth, he ususally isn't asked flat out right. Sam was, and he lied for as long as he could, even when Dean found out/figured out snippets of what Sam was hidding, Sam did his best to hid the rest. He lied throughout an Entire season, while Dean's lies stretch for an episode. And Dean didn't Trust the cross-roads demon, he just wanted his brother back, that doesn't mean he trusted the demon at all. He was just makeing a deal.You don't have to trust to do business, not when your that desparate. The demon also tried to stop the other demon from killing Dean. No, I'm saying, before they found out about the angel's true plans Sam truly had faith in them. Don't you think someone with as much faith as Sam had(we learn he prays all the time) would think twice if heaven told him what he was doing was wrong. I do agree Dean's usually the hero, but that doesn't mean the show doesn't focus on Sam, then has Dean come in and clean up his messes.
I just don't want Dean's storyline to be Sam's story line. The boys can still work together, without the same storyline. Dean can still worry about his brother with out sharing Sam's story line. Family doesn't have to disappear for it to be possible...
We've had spoilers that said that when the season starts out, Sam and Amelia are no longer together. Her presence in at least the first part of the season is only in past flashbacks.
Sorry, but I disagree with almost everything you said here. In both cases the lies were to either cover something they were ashamed of (Dean torturing in hell, or Sam drinking demon blood) or to protect the other (Dean not telling Sam about what John said, or Sam making himself stronger so that he could face off against Lilith because he thought Dean was too damaged from Hell).
Sam's lies about drinking demon blood didn't start the Apocalypse. The final seal was broken because the angels lied to Sam and Dean and told them that killing Lilith would stop the Apocalypse rather than start it.
Yes, no one got hurt when Dean and Bobby summoned Cas, because Cas turned out to be friendly, but when they took that risk they had no idea what they were dealing with. It could have gone the other way and caused huge damage all around. Sam had a right to have a voice in what steps to take next.
As for Dean's lies being different than Sam's, they are both guilty of lying directly to each other's faces and of not volunteering information. I can quote you several of Dean's lies if you'd like.
As for Sam and the angels, I think the angels' words did make Sam think twice. He backed off when he heard the warning, but then he was faced with a live-or-die situation with Samhain. The bottom line is that they were outmatched in season 4, the angels has some agenda with Dean that Sam didn't trust (like turning Dean back into a torturer), and Sam had a powerful weapon in his hands that was saving the lives of innocent people possessed by demons. He was warned not to use them, but he didn't know if he should believe the angels, and he was never given a good reason not to use the powers.
"and clean up his messes" I've heard this before, and I'm curious what you would call his "messes." There's letting Lucifer out of the cage, but Dean had just as much of a role in the breaking of the seals as Sam did. What else has Sam done that Dean had to clean up after him for? Are you blaming Sam being brought back soulless on Sam?
No, we've just been mostly been given spoilers about the flashbacks parts. We know in the present they're on some kind of quest that is personal to both of them, and whatever they're looking for, Crowley is interested in it too.
There have been spoilers that say that Dean is hiding something about the vampire and his escape from Purgatory from Sam. This is from EW: "Dean is called to aid the being that helped him out of Purgatory (but can't tell Sam!)"
Sam was getting stronger because he wanted to become stronger, he even admits this in season 5, of course part of the reason was to fight the battle he believed Dean no longer could, but the other part was a rather selfish want for power. Ruby told Sam that killing Lilith would solve everything. The angels just told them to stop the seals from being broken. They mostly just lied to Dean about what his role was. Yes, but in Dean's mind, at least when the thing attacked, Sam wouldn't be there. Dean's lieing would only hurt himself. Pretty sure Bobby chose to go on his own accord, and wasn't lied to, so he wouldn't count as being hurt by Dean's lie. Never given a good reason? Dean gave them to him all the time, and he was drinking blood, whether demon blood, or human, he had to know that was wrong. Dean broke the first seal, yes, but he really didn't have anything to do with Sam breaking the last That was all Sam, trusting a demon over his own brother, bleeding a girl dry, and following Ruby to the end. Technically, Dean didn't get their in time to clean up this mess, but he tried. I am sorry I don't have every detail of every Supernatural seared in my brain, I truly am, if I could skip school I'd spend all day looking for the other messes in order to back up my arguement. What I do know is that I have seen all the seasons, and that Dean has cleaned up plenty of Sam's messes, whether big or small. If I remember then during the day, I'll post them here. Which of Dean's lies were as big, or stretched out as long as Sam's? Sam lied throughout season four. .... This seems to have become a Dean-fan vs Sam-fan discussion, which is weird. I hope you haven't gotten the impression that I am a Dean-only fan and am argueing with you only for argueings sake, or because I fell the need to defend my favorite brother. That is not the case, I love broth brothers equally.... and only favorite Cas. I'm only saying, this is what has happened in Supernatural, not that Dean is the knight is shing armor. I think I should just put this out there, as I don't want this to evolve into a fight, as similar discussions tend to do. Also, I'm not sure if I answered everything, was their something I missed.
We've obviously not to going to agree on this. I'm reading from your comments that you think Dean's lies are okay, whereas Sam's are not, and that Sam should always trust Dean's judgment over his own even when Dean doesn't have any more information than Sam has. These are two areas I won't budge on, so let's just drop this discussion here.
I am complete agree with you since the began of the show we saw how dean and sam ways to lives there live shift in this season we had to expect a big chances in the lives of the brother, dean was full of year in a hunter and save his live mode try to find allies there help him escape and find one THE VAMPIRE,,remember the ALPHA he can communicate with his children and we dont know if he had a love connection or interest & dean had to leave her or take it with him and promise never told sam..,sam were alone he had to form new alliances ,friends and the romantic area sam allow romance florish he is worried about any situation but dont block any chance to enjoy happiness if problems came he will face it he had a full year to do that when the brother united again of course they will fight,hide secrets we the fans had different opinion in how they react about it but we cant takes side to the extreme because season 8 the boys are expose to that reality all last season they were separate but no for so long and deep is mind thinking is on reboot mode learn and move on never look back anything could happen we had to wait how the storyline unfold
I'm really curious about this overall arc that is tied to Dean and Benny. So far, all the spoilers I have read point to a brilliant season. I'm thrilled! :-)
I am happy that they are moving on from these relationships and giving us a good monster story-line. I am a huge fan of brotherly love but I don't really see a single writer or a good mytharc that can bring in brotherly moments.
Regardless of the way I think the story will lean this next season, it is sounding very much like it will be far more entertaining and cohesive than last season. Which isn't really saying much, because last season felt like distraction after distraction.
NOTE: Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, homophobia, acrophobia, and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.
So I thought it was settled awhile ago with Amanda and her bring pregnant..Maybe its me today?
ReplyDeleteOMG, I'm laughing so hard at the tone on the Supernatural part. This woman has been reading way too many emails from Dean girls. I bet she's the one who asked Misha if he hates Sera Gamble.
ReplyDeleteI hate reviewers that give out spoilers to shows they obviously don't watch.
ReplyDeleteI, for one, like the way they wrote the 'spolier' it for SPN. I like Dean having a storyline that doesn't involve saving Sam, and I like that Sam finally has a grown up storyline that doesn't involve him doing something he has to make amends for. If they can have separate storylines that both feed the season mythology, but still work together while rebuilding their brotherly relationship, I'm happy. :) Bring on season 8!
ReplyDeleteAdding to what I said, does anyone know if she even watches Supernatural? She just sounds like she's quoting line and verse from the DeanGirl/SamHaters club without realizing that what she's saying doesn't make any sense. The only time Sam was the "middleman" in Dean's story was in seasons 2 and the first half of season 6. Season 1 was about finding their dad and unraveling the mystery around what killed their mother, season 3 was about saving Dean, season 4 was about stopping the breaking of the seals (which Dean started without Sam's help), season 5 was about stopping the Apocalypse, the second half of season 6 was about the Cas/Crowley/Purgatory plan, and season 7 was about the Leviathans.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if she actually watches the show but she's one of the only journalists to give a crap about SPN. She gives us actual spoilers and decent interviews. Without her we'd be stuck with hacks like Ausiello and Kristin.
ReplyDeleteYeah a few weeks ago Mo Ryan from the Huffington Post reported that Amanda is definitely pregnant http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/revenge-abc_n_1708130.html
ReplyDelete"and I like that Sam finally has a grown up storyline that doesn't involve him doing something he has to make amends for"
ReplyDeleteYou're right. Having hallucinations and letting his girlfriend be killed in season 1 were really childish actions. And being killed by Jake in season 2 was something he needed to make amends for. And wanting to save Dean in season 3 was something he should really feel sorry for. And using his powers to stop Lilith was the mark of immaturity. And then going to Hell to save the world was a bad thing. And letting his hell crash down on him in seasons 6 and 7 was really selfish of him. It's time he grows up.
Sam's has always been grown up he had to be. He doesnt need a lesson in maturity from some silly romance sl.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why people are upset about the wording of the spn spoiler. I think people are projecting a lot of fandom nonsense onto the journalist that probably isn't there. Fact is, it will be interesting to see both Sam and Dean have storylines that don't revolve around each other.
ReplyDeleteI don't really care which brother has a direct connection to the mytharc as long as both have layered, active storylines that keep them growing and busy all season long. When Dean's storyline involved Lisa and Ben, he also had a lot else going on - figuring out the mystery behind Cas's odd behavior, the Cambells and the alphas; getting his brother's soul back; hunting down and killing the mother of all monsters; and then dealing with the betrayal by his best friend; and trying to talk Cas down. It's been a few seasons since Sam had much going on that didn't get pushed to the sidelines shortly into the season. The Amelia storyline sounds great, but it can't be the only thing going on with Sam this season. If Dean has the richer backstory, then Sam needs to take the more central role with the main present-day arc, the way Dean always did when Sam was struggling with his own issues. The one thing JC needs to do is to restore some balance to this show.
ReplyDelete"without Sam serving as a middle-man"
ReplyDeleteBy throwing in comments like this, she's legitimizing that fandom nonsense. Normally I wouldn't care, but you have people like Robert Singer echoing that fandom nonsense with comments like "Sam had the brunt of the emotional arc" in a season in which Sam's emotional struggles were barely seen, then it raises alarms.
Sam clearly has no role in the show's mythology this year. Or at least nothing that is important enough to pretend about. You can say whatever you want about Sera, but at least she had Dean exploring what was wrong with Sam and the Campbell, actively looking for Sam's soul, and trying to stop the Mother of All. Even in the seventh season, they pretended to give Dean a 13-episode story arc. Now, Sam down to maintaining a relationship while Dean digs further into the mythology of the season. What a joke for the Sam fans?
ReplyDeleteSam barely had a story last season and now, everyone wants to pretend that Sam is the stupid middleman for Dean's connection to the story? Um, hello, you have NEVER wondered what Dean point of view was and he ALWAYS had a connect to the mythology. He just wasn't "special" enough. Which angers me, because Dean has always be a MAJOR player in the game just some random guy drag in by his brothers' trouble. Way to undercut his character. This is just an independent storyline, but it has been done. Dean's deal, Dean breaking the first seal, Dean being Michael's vessel, and Dean's hell have all been Dean's storylines. It is the first time in while Dean has been connected to the mythology, but it's NOT the first.
I don't understand when Dean wasn't connected to the mythology he still had point of view, but Sam didn't and apparently, doesn't. Or at least the joking at Van Con is that we need to write in letters for more Sam. So, what? The only thing I like about this spoiler is that the brothers are going to be together sort of. At least if Dean's onscreen, Sam has a 40% chance of showing up.
I'm not really a polarized SPN fan. I just think the wording of the spoiler was really odd. When has Sam ever mediated Dean's interaction with the show's mythology? And considering the show has pretty much nothing outside of the mythology at this point, it feels very much like saying Sam's being shunted away from the story. That can't possibly be true, but it was so pointedly written that I am just perplexed as what was really intended.
ReplyDeleteI think it could have been worded a whole lot better but the end result is that this spoiler works for me. I like the idea of Dean being actually tied into the mythology instead of being peripherally tied into it. I think it's good that Sam will have other characters in his life. Not sure I'm going to like the end result of it though since being the character most tied to the mytharc tends to leave that character hated in the fandom.
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit early to be saying that Sam has NO tie to the mythology this year. We don't know that and the Supernatural PTB have always held back key parts of the season from us during hellatus. I also didn't get the implication that she was saying that we've never had a story line for Dean, just that it's been awhile. To be honest, it's been awhile for both brothers to have a major story line that ties them personally to the mytharc. Dean had no character arc at all last year and Sam barely had one some of the time. The idea that they will both have a separate story line and yet still work as a functioning, competent team sounds highly unlikely but good to me.
ReplyDeleteThe article was very poorly written, so much so that I'm beginning to think it was supposed to cause massive fan outcry and therefore more hits for the website. Carver said he was scaling back the mythology for this season (yeah), so I'm not sure we can say that there is nothing else to the show. Also there were a lot of episodes that weren't directly tied to the mythology last year as people keep harping about. Obviously Sam will be important to the story and will have a role in whatever the mythology turns out to be. However, I do think there have been times where Dean's connection to the mytharc has mostly been through Sam, especially in season 2. I don't particularly worry about that myself. Sam has tended to get the strong mytharc tie while Dean got the point-of-view. It sounds like this season they are reversing that, which is exactly what the so called "Dean fans" and "Sam fans" having been grousing about for years now. Let's hope getting what they want doesn't lead to still disgruntled fans.
ReplyDeleteI assume you are talking about the Supernatural spoiler. If so, I can't say for sure that Cadlymac is still watching SPN but she was definitely watching it earlier. I followed her tweets for awhile and she was watching at that time.
ReplyDeletewell what I have been reading is more a dean season ok and I am not pissed off buy it at all. but its going to end up bad because it allways does I hate the dean lieing part of it again wow does this happen every season dean lies to sam about something sam does it to but not as much as dean does I think the big one was working with ruby and the DB but not many. And dean working with this benny vampire well thats going to end well NOT! It will suck to leave sam in the sideline as you guys say but I will like the fact that he will have a nomal life with the girl for a litte bit I can not wait to see that. And if the lie comes out well we just have to see if the guy can stay together after that.
ReplyDeleteDean having flashbacks to Purgatory and being shown spending time with Benny while Sam is not around is not Sam POV.
ReplyDeleteYou are right that it is earlier to say that Sam has no tie to the mythology. But I'm annoyed between the jokes of Jared not having at lot of filming and now spoilers saying that Dean is digging deeper into the mythology, while Sam just "maintains" his relationship that just a few weeks ago was already over with. I want for Sam to have a clear voice and point of view. I want to have spoilers that say that Sam does have other things to deal with. I think it's already been made clear that Dean connects to the mythology. I'm not looking for the keys parts of the season; however, I'm looking for something more than Sam and Dean will have relationship outside their brotherhood and Dean is up to keeping secrets while Sam has a love interest. Those aren't exactly the most thrilling spoilers.
ReplyDeleteI'm 100% with you, I mean we know almost nothing about the ''main quest'' yet, except its about a power source, a search for it...just cause Dean is tie to the purgatus part of the mythologie, there's absolutely nothing saying that Sam will have nothing important to do in the rest
ReplyDeleteAt this point (just like most years) I think the PTB would be best served to not share any more spoilers at all, although to be honest there is nothing new in this spoiler either. Fans get increasingly agitated the longer hellatus goes on and this one is longer than most so people are already overly tense. A spoiler hiatus might cool everyone down a bit.
ReplyDeleteI think that's a good idea for the show not to release any spoilers until mid-September. Jared confirmed at Van Con that Sam didn't abandon Dean and that those spoilers are being massively misinterpreted. I don't remember ever getting this upset over spoilers or ever reading about the actors saying that the interpretations were flat out wrong. Add that with the new showrunner and coming of two disappointing seasons. I really think the show could do a whole lot of good, by not messing with the fandom. However, it's really difficult to get the websites to stop trying to print whatever spoilers or information they think is true or they know will cause trouble by playing to one side or stating it a certain way. Supernatural stuff get a lot of hits and comments, so it's impossible to have a true Supernatural spoiler hiatus or a true spoiler. Maybe the show could focus on something the brothers are working on together, something little on Cas, and simply Sam that has his own monsters (or demons) to deal with (something other than the love interest stuff) spoilers. If you can't beat the gossip sites, maybe it's time for the PTB to try to spin it their way. There are so many ways now days that they can get information out, so it's not impossible for them to do that.
ReplyDeleteAnything they put out as a spoiler at this time will make some section mad and will be twisted around and misinterpreted by the rest. It's a lose-lose situation.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Dean is always just another part of Sam's storyline, it's time he got his own.
ReplyDeleteThough what I'm really wondering is about Cas... I really hope he didn't abandon Dean in Pulgatory.
Well, he did keep his abilities a secret and want out throughout season 1... Sam really didn't look at the bigger picture.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit fuzzy on season 2 but
Sam really should have known better than to trust a DEMON, thought out season 3 and 4, he also should have realized he was addicted to the demon blood, like any other drug, and should have listened to Dean especially after Cas said "Stop him, or we'll have to."
Sam started the apocalypse... unknowingly yes, but he does seem to do many things unknowingly or for the right intensions, but the result remains the same...
Supernatural is Sam-centric at many times, but it kinda balances out because Dean's still the hero, he saves Sam throughtout the seasons from nearly every monster they encounter, not to mention when he pulled him out of the burning apartment, sold his soul to bring him back to life, spent all of season four trying to save him.... Dean is the big brother and usually ends up saving the day... Still glad he's getting his own storyline though.
When its Deans storylines Sam tends to get cut out when its Sams sls Dean is central to everything he gets more pov and episodes than Sam does.
ReplyDeleteOf course the idea of separate sls will give us twice the storytelling is a nice one but the show doesnt give Sam that sort of storytelling.They didnt care to want to continue with Sams cage sl so they fixed him and now he gets a love story which will be flashbacks and no real connection to the present.We saw with Lisa you cant give much time to these type of sls which is why Dean was involved with so much else.Will they do the same here for Sam? because a on/off romance with Amelia isnt going to do much for Sam all season .
There has been no indication that Sam will be getting the POV this season
ReplyDeleteJared has had a lot of time of so far since filming started.
ReplyDeleteI guess will need a lesson in maturity this season then what with him keeping secrets and working with a vampire behind his brothers back?
ReplyDeletecadlymac is a SPN fan as far as I know she's a wellknown Dean fan, who doesnt like Sam.
ReplyDeletea lot of these journos have abandoned the show in recent years so the lack of spoilers is hardly suprising.
ReplyDeleteI definately dont have a problem with separate storyline for Sam and Dean. I just want Sam's to be as significant on and off screen as Dean's is. Sam away from the mythology isnt a bad thing, he'll still hunt but now he gets a chance to work on having something outside of hunting. Maybe setting up a future for himself.
ReplyDeleteBesides it sounds like Dean is going to be getting into trouble this season, I'm hoping this is his version of Sam's season 4. One would hope that Sam would have the POV as Dean did in season 4 but it seems that season 8 will have Dean have the mythology and the POV.
First of all, Dean has kept about as many secrets as Sam over the years. He lied to Sam at the beginning of season 2 about what his father told him about Sam. He lied to Sam about Sam dying/Dean selling his soul at the end of season 2 until Sam guessed the truth. He didn't tell Sam and Bobby that he was having Hell visions in the season 3 finale until Bobby guessed it. When he and Bobby went after Cas in the season 4 opener, he told Sam some story (I think it was that he was getting a beer with Bobby). He lied about remembering Hell in season 4. He lied about Amy in season 7. And it sounds like he'll be doing more lying in season 8.
ReplyDeleteHe's also trusted demons more than Sam has. Whereas Sam has only trusted Ruby, Dean trusted the first demon who he sold his soul to (he might have guessed that there was more to the deal than the demon was disclosing). Dean came to trust Ruby for a short period of time. Dean argued for trusting and working with Crowley in season 5. Dean trusted Meg and Crowley enough to work with them (and for Meg to keep Cas safe) in season 7. He also tried to stop Sam from killing the demon in Sin City.
You're saying Sam should have trusted what the angels were saying in season 4? Really?
As for whether the show is Sam-centric, I'm don't see it. There have been individual storylines that have been Sam-centric, but Dean has always been the most visible hero of the story, and it's been more of a family story than an individual's story.
I'm getting tired of hearing people say that SPN has been Sam's storyline because it's been a family's storyline. This all started with Mary. John was the focus of season 1, Sam because the focus in season 2, and then Dean became the focus in season 3. Dean started the breaking of the seals and Sam finished it off. Dean was Michael's vessel, Sam was Lucifer's.
ReplyDeleteOne of the big problems with the argument that Dean should have his own storyline that doesn't involve Sam is that you're arguing that the Dean should have his own storyline that doesn't involve family. Family has always been at the crux of show, and the show becomes something different if it's no longer centered around brothers and family.
Don't think it's all the fault of the spoilers. There never was any anywhere confirming that Sam abandon Dean, it was a couple of person who decided to jump to the worse case scenario conclusion and freak out no matter how many others person told them that it's hasn't been confirm
ReplyDeleteLike the whole huge fight last year over 3 lines about The girl next door or with 90% others spoilers. Most of the others shows, the fandom is reading the spoilers they have and don't start to write the worse scenario in their head
I thought the flashbacks were for Dean's time in Purgatory... I think Sam's relationship will take time in the present.
ReplyDeleteDean's secrets usually aren't as bad as Sam's.
ReplyDeleteYes, Dean did. But can you plan him? "Hey Sammy, our father said I might have to kill you, either he hates you, or your some sort of monsterous freak!"
Dean lied about selling his soul for about half the episode. Who got harmed in the process?
Dean knew what he was dealing with was strong(strong enough to drag him out of Hell and leave a burn mark) of course he didn't want Sam to worry, mostly likely he also didn't want his little brother in the line of fire. It's like a parent protecting a child. No one got hurt.
But when Sam lies, the world breaks. He does, right out lie to Dean's face, while Dean usually just omits the truth, he ususally isn't asked flat out right. Sam was, and he lied for as long as he could, even when Dean found out/figured out snippets of what Sam was hidding, Sam did his best to hid the rest. He lied throughout an Entire season, while Dean's lies stretch for an episode.
And Dean didn't Trust the cross-roads demon, he just wanted his brother back, that doesn't mean he trusted the demon at all. He was just makeing a deal.You don't have to trust to do business, not when your that desparate.
The demon also tried to stop the other demon from killing Dean.
No, I'm saying, before they found out about the angel's true plans Sam truly had faith in them. Don't you think someone with as much faith as Sam had(we learn he prays all the time) would think twice if heaven told him what he was doing was wrong.
I do agree Dean's usually the hero, but that doesn't mean the show doesn't focus on Sam, then has Dean come in and clean up his messes.
I don't think we've been told if Dean is hiding the vampire from Sam.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, you don't need trust to work together, you just need a common goal.
I just don't want Dean's storyline to be Sam's story line. The boys can still work together, without the same storyline. Dean can still worry about his brother with out sharing Sam's story line. Family doesn't have to disappear for it to be possible...
ReplyDeleteWe've had spoilers that said that when the season starts out, Sam and Amelia are no longer together. Her presence in at least the first part of the season is only in past flashbacks.
ReplyDeleteOh, then is the entire first half pure flashbacks?
ReplyDeleteIts funny how when it comes to Dean a whole different tune is heard. Its good of the show to focus on Sam long enough for Dean to clean up his messes?
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I disagree with almost everything you said here. In both cases the lies were to either cover something they were ashamed of (Dean torturing in hell, or Sam drinking demon blood) or to protect the other (Dean not telling Sam about what John said, or Sam making himself stronger so that he could face off against Lilith because he thought Dean was too damaged from Hell).
ReplyDeleteSam's lies about drinking demon blood didn't start the Apocalypse. The final seal was broken because the angels lied to Sam and Dean and told them that killing Lilith would stop the Apocalypse rather than start it.
Yes, no one got hurt when Dean and Bobby summoned Cas, because Cas turned out to be friendly, but when they took that risk they had no idea what they were dealing with. It could have gone the other way and caused huge damage all around. Sam had a right to have a voice in what steps to take next.
As for Dean's lies being different than Sam's, they are both guilty of lying directly to each other's faces and of not volunteering information. I can quote you several of Dean's lies if you'd like.
As for Sam and the angels, I think the angels' words did make Sam think twice. He backed off when he heard the warning, but then he was faced with a live-or-die situation with Samhain. The bottom line is that they were outmatched in season 4, the angels has some agenda with Dean that Sam didn't trust (like turning Dean back into a torturer), and Sam had a powerful weapon in his hands that was saving the lives of innocent people possessed by demons. He was warned not to use them, but he didn't know if he should believe the angels, and he was never given a good reason not to use the powers.
"and clean up his messes"
I've heard this before, and I'm curious what you would call his "messes." There's letting Lucifer out of the cage, but Dean had just as much of a role in the breaking of the seals as Sam did. What else has Sam done that Dean had to clean up after him for? Are you blaming Sam being brought back soulless on Sam?
No, we've just been mostly been given spoilers about the flashbacks parts. We know in the present they're on some kind of quest that is personal to both of them, and whatever they're looking for, Crowley is interested in it too.
ReplyDeleteThere have been spoilers that say that Dean is hiding something about the vampire and his escape from Purgatory from Sam. This is from EW: "Dean is called to aid the being that helped him out of Purgatory (but can't tell Sam!)"
ReplyDeleteSam was getting stronger because he wanted to become stronger, he even admits this in season 5, of course part of the reason was to fight the battle he believed Dean no longer could, but the other part was a rather selfish want for power.
ReplyDeleteRuby told Sam that killing Lilith would solve everything. The angels just told them to stop the seals from being broken. They mostly just lied to Dean about what his role was.
Yes, but in Dean's mind, at least when the thing attacked, Sam wouldn't be there. Dean's lieing would only hurt himself. Pretty sure Bobby chose to go on his own accord, and wasn't lied to, so he wouldn't count as being hurt by Dean's lie.
Never given a good reason? Dean gave them to him all the time, and he was drinking blood, whether demon blood, or human, he had to know that was wrong.
Dean broke the first seal, yes, but he really didn't have anything to do with Sam breaking the last That was all Sam, trusting a demon over his own brother, bleeding a girl dry, and following Ruby to the end. Technically, Dean didn't get their in time to clean up this mess, but he tried.
I am sorry I don't have every detail of every Supernatural seared in my brain, I truly am, if I could skip school I'd spend all day looking for the other messes in order to back up my arguement. What I do know is that I have seen all the seasons, and that Dean has cleaned up plenty of Sam's messes, whether big or small. If I remember then during the day, I'll post them here.
Which of Dean's lies were as big, or stretched out as long as Sam's? Sam lied throughout season four.
.... This seems to have become a Dean-fan vs Sam-fan discussion, which is weird. I hope you haven't gotten the impression that I am a Dean-only fan and am argueing with you only for argueings sake, or because I fell the need to defend my favorite brother. That is not the case, I love broth brothers equally.... and only favorite Cas. I'm only saying, this is what has happened in Supernatural, not that Dean is the knight is shing armor. I think I should just put this out there, as I don't want this to evolve into a fight, as similar discussions tend to do.
Also, I'm not sure if I answered everything, was their something I missed.
We've obviously not to going to agree on this. I'm reading from your comments that you think Dean's lies are okay, whereas Sam's are not, and that Sam should always trust Dean's judgment over his own even when Dean doesn't have any more information than Sam has. These are two areas I won't budge on, so let's just drop this discussion here.
ReplyDeleteI am complete agree with you since the began of the show we saw how dean and sam ways to lives there live shift in this season we had to expect a big chances in the lives of the brother, dean was full of year in a hunter and save his live mode try to find allies there help him escape and find one THE VAMPIRE,,remember the ALPHA he can communicate with his children and we dont know if he had a love connection or interest & dean had to leave her or take it with him and promise never told sam..,sam were alone he had to form new alliances ,friends and the romantic area sam allow romance florish he is worried about any situation but dont block any chance to enjoy happiness if problems came he will face it he had a full year to do that when the brother united again of course they will fight,hide secrets we the fans had different opinion in how they react about it but we cant takes side to the extreme because season 8 the boys are expose to that reality all last season they were separate but no for so long and deep is mind thinking is on reboot mode learn and move on never look back anything could happen we had to wait how the storyline unfold
ReplyDeleteI'm really curious about this overall arc that is tied to Dean and Benny. So far, all the spoilers I have read point to a brilliant season. I'm thrilled! :-)
ReplyDeleteI am happy that they are moving on from these relationships and giving us a good monster story-line. I am a huge fan of brotherly love but I don't really see a single writer or a good mytharc that can bring in brotherly moments.
ReplyDeleteOkay, though I don't think Dean's lies are okay. I just don't find them as bad as Sam's.
ReplyDeleteI'm not so interested in Benny... I hope Crowely comes on more, he's my favorite demon.... and I really hope they didn't "forget" Cas in Purgatory.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of the way I think the story will lean this next season, it is sounding very much like it will be far more entertaining and cohesive than last season. Which isn't really saying much, because last season felt like distraction after distraction.
ReplyDelete