You know what? I don't think that I acually hate Ros: The Whore. In fact, I may be starting to like her a little. This episode proved to me that Esme Bianco is more than capable of acting and thus is not personally at fault for my initial disdain for her character. As such, in an attempt to sort out my feelings while also trying to write an actual review of Game of Thrones Episode 2.02 ("The Night Lands"), I found myself instead writing a semi-lengthy argument in defence of her character. So, without further ado, I present to you the article you definitely didn't ask for, but also didn't even know you wanted :D!!!!I think that our slightly misdirected rage comes from two different places:
Regardless, there's certainly a larger discussion about the necessity of nudity in television to be had; however, due to a lack of space and time constraints, in short, I stand firmly on the side that favours nudity for the sake of realism. If main characters are having sex, then nudity should be fine. Tyrion and Shae come to mind, as does this episode's Melisandre/Stannis scene. Also, if you enter a brothel, nudity should probably be happening. Should we enjoy 30 seconds of sexy times before making our way over to the plot? Probably not (although I'd have to look at each situation on a case-by-case basis; setting the mood is sometimes both interesting and informative).
The rather long-winded point I'm trying to make is that we don't actually hate Ros personally. We hate unnecessary nudity. Up until now, she has largely been involved in the worst of it; however, her two scenes so far this season have turned that idea completely on its head. She hasn't yet appeared naked, nor has she had sex on screen. She was present during a Hey! Boobs! moment last episode, but I would argue that it was a somewhat hyperbolic use of nudity to set the mood for imminent baby brothel murderings. It also served to show us that she had become the teacher (in direct contrast to the aforementioned Littlefinger training scene).
While some more Littlefinger/Varys confrontations would have been exciting, I would argue that this scene revealed a lot more about Littlefinger's character than another of those encounters would have offered at present. It definitely could have used some shortening here and there, but all in all, I was quite pleased with how it turned out. Any complaints about nudity lie with Littlefinger (well, no, with the writers), not Ros.
Conclusion: Don't shoot the messenger!
Regardless, I believe that these fears are completely unfounded (at least as of the the start of the second season). The most important point that I think I can make is that Ros seems to be taking on the role of Chataya. As such, we can't actually argue that she isn't someone from the books. We knew that, with a cast of several hundred characters, we were going to have to make some compromises for the sake of television storytelling. We knew that certain minor players would be combined into a single character and that others would be dropped entirely. The only real complaint that I would levy in the direction of the casting directors is that Ros becoming Chataya effectively white washes the character (Chataya was black in the novels). I won't get into that now, but issues surrounding diversity casting are absolutely worth discussing.
You might argue that we don't actually need any sex-with-prostitutes scenes at all, but I think that placing characters in vulnerable positions is a great way to find out more about them. Grand Maester Pycelle was revealed to be much less of a senile old man than we had been led to believe, Theon has control issues, Littlefinger has too many issues to name, etc.
Conclusion: Ros is a useful storytelling tool.
A final point I'd like to make is that we should really calm down about the existence of new characters. If they have nothing to offer us, then absolutely, hate away... but the initial gut reaction causing us to scream 'SHE ISN'T PART OF THE CANON SO GET HER OFF MY SCREEN' is something that we all ought to fight. This isn't the novel, nor could it ever be a direct adaptation of the novel.
Conclusion: Let's see what television has to offer!
You can follow me on Twitter @LostCadence and listen to me rant about television shows and culture or else check out my Blog: cadencegtv. As always, a big thanks to Darque for checking out the content prior to posting/for some fantastic screen caps!
Season 01:
Episode 1: Full Review - 7.75/10.0
Episode 2: (Darq's) Recap/Review - 8.25/10.0
Episode 3: 8.75/10.0
Episode 7: 9.00/10.0
Season 02:
- John
I know a lot of people hate Ros but I love her to pieces.
ReplyDeleteAlso a Ros fan, she's like the little whore that could. At first she was just there for the sexposition (though it was fun to see how she hoped through westeros) but on these two episodes of season two she has become a bona fide supporting character, she was a familiar face on the baby killing scene and her later meltdown showed us the repercussions of the massacre in a character that til here had been stoic, and also a show of Petyr's character.
ReplyDeleteI liked her in season one, but I am loving her in season two, I have always liked to see bit characters expanded and with Ros, a tv only character, it will always be a surprise.
Well, prostitution is one of the oldest proffesions out there. Anyway, i dont love the character, but i like her as the small character she is. I like pretty much every character they way i think i should, the show appeals to different people when it comes to the characters. Even the people you did not think you would end up liking at first.
ReplyDeleteI hate (but like) Cersei and what`s came from between her legs named Joffrey. I kinda hated Jamie at first, but as the books i will start to like him more also in the series. I also started to hated Ned (yes, my n'''' ned), because he was so dumb with the whole situation that ended up with him headless. I love Tyrion, at the same time i also hate him. I hate Littlefinger, i think he`s the worst, tough i like his thinking. Lord Varys is besides Dany and Tyrion my fav character on the show, i like him because he`s smart even how douche he is.
Good to know I am not alone in my defense of Ros! XD
ReplyDeleteGranted, some of her scenes in Season 1 were too long or maybe even unneeded, but her scenes in Season 2 have served purpose and she has not been a sexposition tool as she was before.
She has evolved now into more than basically being an extra with a name. She has become a real dimensional character that by all appearances will take the place of Chataya and Alayaya. I'm good with that. The less new actors on the payroll the better it is for the budget.... and the better it will be when the slew of new characters appear in Season 3 and Season 4! Well, if Ros lives that long! XD
The thing I find most frustrating (maybe amusing is a better word) is that people complain she is taking time from other characters that good be in the show if Ros was not. That is such wishful thinking. So many of people's favorites are completely irrelevant to the bigger story of the series. The Blackfish comes to mind. No offense fans of Ser Brynden Tully....
HBO will have its nudity and the Game of Thrones story requires a fair amount of exposition. I would MUCH, MUCH rather have both combined into the same scene! If we had the nudity and the exposition separately, it would 2 scenes that people disliked and felt were unneeded!
Viva le Sexposition!
Viva la Ros!
I agree about Littlefinger.
ReplyDeleteIt's odd to me that people think he is on par with Varys as a manipulator and game player. Varys knows what's going on across 2 continents and moves pieces without them having any idea they are being pushed where he wants them. He also has much larger desires than LF. He has been affecting events for more than a decade in various parts of the world. He wants to stabilize the realm... okay and possibly overthrow a ruling regime or two in the process. XD
Here's a fun pic of Gwendeline Christie (Brienne), Joe Dempsie (Gendry) and Kit Harrington (Jon Snow) .
ReplyDeleteI still hate Ros, sorry :P
ReplyDeleteAnd it's not even about the sex scenes (your "hey! boobs!" and "boobs are fun and all" comments made me crack up :D). I mean, I have a separate problem with the amount of nudity in this show (especially that 90% of that nudity is of course female nudity), but it's not the reason I dislike her. I guess I just have a problem with a common whore getting an ever-growing storyline and yes, instead of some more worthy characters. Lets even drop the issue with the ones they decided not to cast, she takes screentime from main characters away! Also, I was actually looking forward to seing Alayaya. I would have loved Alayaya: The Whore much more than Ros: The Whore, mostly because Alayaya was supposed to be exotic and classy, I even imagined her as too sweet for a prostitute. Ros is a common vulgar whore. Realism you say? maybe, but it still annoys me.
Maybe we did need her to show some depth in Littlefinger's character, maybe I just have a problem with the way she's portrayed. But I still couldn't help but yawn throughout the entire longish scene last episode. I mean, really, we have so many new characters this season, Stannis's camp,Renly's camp, the Greyjoys and so many new storylines and they force me to sit through a scene where a meaningless whore has a heart-to-heart chat with Littlefinger?
I for one have no problem with the nakedness. I have no problem with the other characters having sex - it is part of life, and therefor part of a TV show.
ReplyDeleteI really don´t have a problem with Esme either and I have understanding for them using her as a tool to tell more of the story.
BUT the scenes she is in sometimes seems poorly written and less entertaining than the rest of the story. And as a person that have read the books......there are so many scenes we are missing out on, WHY do we have to waste our time with Ros?
Sorry, still wish I could trade Ros´s scenes with some other scenes in the book.
That's a great point! I hadn't really thought about that in much depth. Littlefinger is certainly a very clever man, but he is using his cleverness for personal gain. He is specifically out for revenge and power. Varys doesn't want to be in charge. He wants someone capable of ruling to do so and to unite the realm. Interesting. I wouldn't go so far as to say he knows his place... more that he has made his place what he wants it to be. I should think about this stuff more lol.
ReplyDeleteI think you're conflating sex for the sake of realism with an over-abundance of sex. I have no issue with people being naked in general, but if you're going to argue that we're wasting time on Ros, then you have to admit that we also "waste" time on gratuitous nudity. We don't need a minute of every episode going towards people fucking without purpose. Theon's scene, for example, was fine until he just kind of kept having sex for an extra thirty seconds. That was excessive.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear, if every character was just naked always, I wouldn't have a problem because they would be advancing the plot and whatnot. The problem is when no actual scene is happening and we're just treated to sex. Now, again, I would have to consider things on a case-by-case basis, but by and large, most of those scenes don't serve much of a functional purpose beyond HEY! BOOBS!
As for wishing to have other scenes from the books, again, I really think we need to back down from the whole WHY WAS THIS CUT FROM THE SHOW mentality. I get it and think it all the time lol and obviously, there are discussions to be had about pacing and how the cuts have affected plot and character development adversely, but I think it's healthier if we consider the show on its own terms.
Finally, the poor writing of scenes with her present is something that *might* have been true last season, but again, absolutely is not this season. The baby murdering was well executed and the Littlefinger scene, although too long, was incredibly well written.
And that speaks to some of the other issues I raised but didn't have time to get into. White washing the character was unfortunate. Alayaya and Chataya were both non-white in the novels and I think that diversity casting is important. I don't know how I feel about the idea of a "common vulgar whore" vs. an "exotic classy whore", but I do think that it wouldn't have been possible to bring a classy exotic whore from Winterfell to King's Landing, which I think is the strongest argument in support of Ros as a connecting device. Winterfell doesn't have classy exotic whores and I like how Ros has been with many of the powerful men involved in the show.
ReplyDeleteAs for the scene being too long, agreed. Apparently it was 4.5 minutes long? It could have been 2 or 3 minutes and had the same effect.
I think you have it backwards...
ReplyDeleteThe brothel scene was not Ros having a meaningless heart-to-heart with Littlefinger.... it was Littlefinger's scene and they needed someone for him to talk with. IT was not about getting more Ros on the show. That scene was about getting LF his screentime to reinforce to everyone he sees all and is a very uncaring, bad man. I say that brothel scene was maybe 10% Ros and 90% Littlefinger. All the length of the scene was his fault.
TPTB seem to want Littlefinger to be one of the main characters and because of that LF is going to get his scenes with or without Ros. He needs to talk to someone other than the major players to express anything exposition wise. So if he talks to some new character Chataya or Alayaya or Ros... no matter who he talks to the other characters are not going to get any more time.
Personally, I wish we would see less of Littlefinger. He has been entirely too upfront and too obvious in the 12 episodes so far.
Likewise almost all of the sexposition scenes have NOT been about Ros or random naked girls... they have been about the other characters with the naked women. Get rid of Ros and those scenes will still happen without the other characters you want to see more of (albeit in some slightly altered way with a new naked woman)..
Right, this is the point I mean to drive home. The scenes she is in are not about her, but at the same time, the fact that she is present in all of them gives us something to latch onto besides the scene at hand. She is both not the centre of attention and yet an interesting storytelling device.
ReplyDeleteI appreciated Ros for as long as she was pertinent to the story. Unfortunately, that is changing and it's changing quickly.
ReplyDeleteSexposition has been an excellent way to keep people interested as Martin goes over his storytelling that we book readers know. In Season 1, she filled that role perfectly and her introduction worked because there WAS a whore of her qualities in the book. So there's no problem there.
My first issue with her was in Ep 1 of S2, in which she is shown as a semi-madam. I didn't get why that was happening at first, but then the writers kind of "inserted" her into the bastard killing situation. It was silly, but it worked. Right? If it was one and done, it'd be good.
Instead, they're turning Ros into their own little "character", which is annoying. She was fine when she was around someone that needed to talk, but her second episode (S2) was a complete waste of what... 6 minutes or so? In which we learn she cries when babies are killed and that Petyr Baelish is an asshole. Like, if you didn't know that Littlefinger was an ass yet, I don't know what more can be done.
The problem is, this show only runs 10 episodes at like 55 minutes a pop. 6 minutes WASTED on their character insert takes away from everyone else's time and that just isn't going to work in a season that is so crammed full of important developments.
Whether or not a person LIKES Ros doesn't really change that she's a detriment to the storytelling right now. I'd have much rather she remained the flighty whore that she was and we get glimpses of her at times. I really don't need to know how a chair feels about being a chair.
With so many changes happening this season, I'm finding myself falling out of love with the series, sadly. I want my Reeds and I want my Blackfish and if you're going to give me a sexy redheaded whore on the side, please - KEEP HER ON THE SIDE.
I'm not entirely certain why you feel the Littlefinger scene was "well written". It was incredibly bland, predictable, and far too long.
ReplyDeleteThe same message could be have been delivered in a minute, tops.Ros: I'm sad.Littlefinger: I knew a sad whore once. She got [Qyburn'd].Ros: I'll get over it.Littlefinger: Good.Sure, it'd be more words but still, it was unnecessary to make it that long (or to have it all all. If you remove the scene we lose nothing from the story!)It's writing like this that makes me question if they read the series. In the Cersei/Ned scene, they could have explained why Ned gave Cersei and her kids a chance to flee with a single sentence:"When your father killed Rhaegar's children, it sickened me. I'll not have the blood of your children on my hands." There. Done. But they decide to cut stuff out entirely and add in new, unnecessary tidbits to "personalize" the show. Honestly, the book series was good for a reason. HBO's writers are NOT better than Martin.
I have to disagree. I don´t think that scene was well written. It was way to long and only had the point of showing more of Littlefingers character. I would much rather have seen him being sneaky around Tyrion, Varys or Cersei. But we are all different.
ReplyDeleteI get the impression that you think that I am unhappy that scenes from the books are missing. I´m not really.....it´s a looong book and I get the difference and LOVE the show. I like a lot of the things they have changed. Just not Ros.
You're a fucking faggot.
ReplyDeleteRight, okay, I agree about how the scene was too long, but I think that you're clinging too strongly to the notion of the novels. Television is another medium entirely. You can't simply put the pages on the screen.
ReplyDeleteIs all you're looking for the propelling of the plot and your favourite book scenes on the screen? I would argue that you're missing the point of the show if that's the case. Making the show their own is necessary. Season 1 was, at first, too slavish to the source material. Once the writers realised that they had to make appropriate changes in order to better serve the TV medium, the show improved. That doesn't mean that the source material is worse (obviously it's better; Martin is a genius). Nor does it mean that the writers have always made amazing choices (I agree about the Ned/Cersei scene).
This scene revealed to viewers exactly how evil Littlefinger truly is. Something that wasn't as apparent before. There is absolutely nothing wrong with developing characters (or rather, they *should* develop characters). Especially characters we don't know well. The show isn't beholden to the POV story structure (which is brilliant novels, but problematic on TV).
Again, it really was way too long. I don't disagree... but why would it make sense to have him be sneaky around Varys, Tyrion, or Cersei? This scene showed us two things:
ReplyDelete1. He is unbelievably callous. If he were with the other "players" he would simply be acting coy and playful. Around one of his whores, he can show us his true colours.
2. This was in response to the murdering of a baby under his roof. If he were with Varys or Tyrion, again, he would be playful about the matter. With a whore who witnessed the atrocity, he was able to say "Yeah, that sucked, now go make me more money."
I think the scene was long too. I liked Littlefinger's speech well enough, but I think it could have been half as long easily and still had the same effect. Plus honestly I don't get the point of it other than just to remind people he is villainous.
ReplyDeleteI do differ on the opinion of the writers though. GRRM could not write a 10 episode season from his sutff. he is incapable of cuttin it down... and frankly I love that aspect of his writing. D&D do a great job of keeping the important aspects of the story while changing the format from POV to more traditional linear storytelling. I don't think they write better than GRRM, but I don't think GRRM could do their job either. They are two different types of writing and I don't think you can say D&D are worse at writing like GRRM does since they are not attempting to write a book, they are writing episode scripts.
Just to use your point of the Ned/ Cersei scene. Viewer's already knew the idea of the young Targaryen children being killed was sickening to Ned from his scenes with Robert. They did not need to have Ned state it again to Cersei. There is just not time to repeat things over and over . They have to choose when and how to say things once and what person will deliver the lines that a few people may have stated in the books... at different times and in different places.
D&D are making necessary changes for a TV series and while I do not always agree with all of them, one simply cannot compare what they do to what GRRM does. They have a real world budget. Episode constraints, time constraints, logistic issues and have to deal with the reality of this world when adapting GRRM's world.
It is completely unrealistic to think that the books could be made into a TV show without major changes like the ones D&D have had to do.
That said, I still think Littlefinger's speech was too long, although I did like Ros reacting to the baby killing.
Interesting. You're in favour of sexposition, but not in favour of certain kinds of character development :P. I would argue that I have some concerns about exploitation there. You're basically making the argument that she ought to exist for the purposes of being naked, god forbid they try to turn her into a character. That's problematic.
ReplyDeleteNow, is she a necessary character? Maybe not. That's a discussion worth having. I have argued she is because of the way she connects different powerful men. As a character in her own right... I don't know that I *need* or *love* her. I think that developing her instead of keeping her only naked is a better choice from both a storytelling/concerns about exploitation perspective.
So my article is partly railing against sexposition and Hey! Boobs! while defending a slightly more developed whore.
I think this is actually what I don't like. If she's not the centre of those scenes, if they want me to focus on the other character she's currently with, why do they give me the same girl every time? It really does mess up my head a little - I start to believe she kind of matters (given I see her that often), but she really doesn't matter other than being a storytelling device? I mean, I'd rather have countless unnamed whores then. At least I'd know they're not important.
ReplyDeleteI can see not liking Ros easily enough.
ReplyDeleteI just think some people think that if there was no Ros ther would be less sexposition or nudity and that other characters would have more time. I thin those scenes would probably happen without her anyway. They would just use a featured extra or introduce a naked woman.I'm not a huge fan of sexposition honestly... or Ros (although I have liked what she has done this year). I just think it's better to get the nudity and exposition out all at once instead of it needing two different scenes and taking even more time from the episode.
Maybe you're right, maybe it's Littlefinger who gets too many meaningless scenes. Because really, what did the last scene tell us about him? that he's a little uncaring bastard? I think we've been aware of that for a while now. Besides, the scene could've at least been shorter. Also, it would've made much more sense if it was between the baby's mother and LF, not Ros.
ReplyDeleteAnd still, what I said in reference to Cadence's post, I'd be more ok with different naked girls in every scene than with having the same one over and over again. It makes her look more important to the plot than it should and than she actually is IMO.
I don't know, maybe she just made me angry because she was in both episodes this season, while Arya (I don't count the 20 seconds from episode 1), Robb, Sansa, Bran, Catelyn were all only in one and other people, like Renly weren't even there at all yet.
I wish there was more episodes per season that allowed them to show every location every episode. I find Arya's journey one of the most fun in the book, but realistically probably half of what happens to her or around her is basically irrelevant to the bigger picture and can be omitted.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I find most frustrating about the series, some of my favorite scenes have been cut because they do not drive the plot forward. Tyrion being brought up to th Eyrie was one of my favorite Tyrion lines of the book...
“My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?”
Luckily I came to terms with all of that last year and no longer expect to see certain scenes from the book... at least not exactly as they were in the book.
Hmmm, okay, fair enough. I like the idea of having a connected character. I'm a huge fan of form and structure in general, so anything that makes broader connections (properly) makes me happy. If you would legitimately prefer unnamed whores, then fair enough.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, that isn't to say that she has zero value outside of being a storytelling device. It was nice to see her reacting to the death of the baby. On the one hand, that scene was almost entirely about Littlefinger's callousness. On the other hand, Ros put a face on the despair that went along with being helpless to stop the city guard from committing such an atrocity. Her continued existence allows someone to exist who cares (since Littlefginer obviously doesn't) that perhaps we can sympathize with, instead of just random sobbing whores.
I think my problem is that it's a new situation to me - I watched season 1 as a happy ASoIaF ignorant, so I had nothing to compare the show with. Now I've read the books and I have to adjust my watching to the whole new level of knowledge about Westeros I have.
ReplyDeletere: Tyrion - I really regret we cannot hear his thoughts on TV. Half of the fun in his chapters is what he thinks, not what he says. However, I have to give it to them that the TV Tyrion is just as witty and awesome as the one from the books. I have zero complaints here ;)
"If you would legitimately prefer unnamed whores, then fair enough" LOL
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe the things we're discussing here. Ros hater or not, one has to appreciate the wide range of problems a GoT fan is able to deliberate ;)
Right, okay, I agree about how the scene was too long, but I think that you're clinging too strongly to the notion of the novels. Television is another medium entirely. You can't simply put the pages on the screen.
ReplyDeleteIs all you're looking for the propelling of the plot and your favourite book scenes on the screen? I would argue that you're missing the point of the show if that's the case. Making the show their own is necessary. Season 1 was, at first, too slavish to the source material. Once the writers realised that they had to make appropriate changes in order to better serve the TV medium, the show improved. That doesn't mean that the source material is worse (obviously it's better; Martin is a genius). Nor does it mean that the writers have always made amazing choices (I agree about the Ned/Cersei scene).
This scene revealed to viewers exactly how evil Littlefinger truly is. Something that wasn't as apparent before. There is absolutely nothing wrong with developing characters (or rather, they *should* develop characters). Especially characters we don't know well. The show isn't beholden to the POV story structure (which is brilliant novels, but problematic on TV). Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
Yeah I went in knowing so I adjusted in Season 1... Some may not ever adjust to the fact it is not the books. I can see it being a different experience seeing the first season as a newbie and then knowing how it plays out in the books for Season 2.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm a fan but not a worshiper. I am just happy to see it on my TV at all and I am even more happy to see it being done so well. Better than I expected honestly.
I could do without the sexposition, but I realize that it is a necessary evil for the series to be made. Frankly I find it clever to combine the almost prerequisite nudity and sex to be on HBO with the much needed exposition required to properly tell the story. It does double duty in half the time and allows more of the rest of the story to unfold.
The people who haven´t read the books must have an oppinion about Ros too. Wonder what they think?! There are soo many people for them to keep track of.
ReplyDeleteI don´t really understand. Are you liking Ros better this year because she is less naked?
ReplyDeleteI really don´t care about the nakedness. She is a whore. The scenes with Tyrion and Theon I had no problems with. It was the whole part about her going to Kings L. that seemed silly to me, and from then on it just got worse. The scene with Pycelle was terrible. And it had nothing to do with the nakedness. I just didn´t enjoy it.
Let me make it clear again. I love this show and every little thing they do with it. Ros is just the very little part that I don´t like as much.
I bet most hardly notice her or know who she is. XD
ReplyDeleteHmm ...
ReplyDeleteWell I think I like Ros more because this year she is more than just a random whore. The nudity does not factor in. I don't have issues with her taking Chataya and Alayaya's roles since both of them were such minor roles.
I really did not understand why she went to King's Landing last year either. Now I see why D&D did it, they like her and what she brings to the show so they gave her a bigger part (or parts) to play.
This week's brothel scene seemed too long and completely unneeded to me when I first watched it, but after watching it again and I like it more honestly. The first 2 times I watched it I did not realize Littlefinger was probably talking about Qyburn. Now that scene has a little meaning since he is talking about a future character. It sets up Qyburn's arrival and lays out why he lost his Maester's chain etc...
Just like the Pycelle scene, they could have gotten the information to the viewer some other way and I would have been just as happy. I
I understand not liking scenes and was not really trying to talk you into liking Ros or brothel scenes. (I do think when one of the characters runs a brothel there should be a few brothel scenes. Especially this year since Shae is hiding out there)
I could do without Dolorous Edd scenes this week honestly. He does not really amuse me on the screen or in the books, but I know some people loved his scenes.
Agreed! I'd be interested in hearing their takes on the matter, but I agree with Darque that they likely don't notice. Since the entire story is new to them, a singular whore might actually seem like a place for the story to go (as opposed to knowing that she's all MADE UP FOR THE SHOW and whatnot lol).
ReplyDeleteThe scene with Pycelle was incredibly revealing. She was hanging out post-sex and he was doddering on about nothing at all. As soon as she left, he jumped up and proved that he was as spry as a man half his age. It was an important scene.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, I concede that Ros isn't a necessity and that not everyone is going to like her :P. In fact, this article got picked up by some gossip site and I was treated to 400 comments that amounted to NOPE DON'T CARE LALALALALA YOU'RE STUPID. So that was fun lol.
The purpose of my article was to give her some greater context outside of OH MAN THERE'S SOME WOMAN WHO ISN'T IN THE BOOKS STEALING SCREEN TIME FROM TYRION.
I also agree with this. IMO Littlefinger is a fun character to hate, but when it comes down to it, that's all I like him for. There's no dignity, honor, intrigue, or even a sense of regret or compassion towards anything that has been presented with the character thus far. I think it's also clear that Varys is much more clever thought provoking charismatic character. I am always delighted to see him.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Cadence about supporting Ros. Even though I have just started to read the books, and therefor am really in no position to argue such a point, I do feel Ros' screen presence is a way to allow us to get into the head spaces of certain characters, because a person in her position would be intimate with many people. I also just generally like her. She has a great sense of pride and is a quick learner. And It's good to have roles to connect us to other people, since the show doesn't follow the same structure of the book. IMO this is a good way to bridge that difference and to get the information the writers want us to have about some of the characters.
I find it a little silly to argue about exploitation in a series where women are objectified in every way possible. Until Brienne of Tarth you don't even begin to see a woman that isn't either a whore or a birthing cow, and with the removal of Lyanna Stark's lore we don't have many women of yore to fall back on as examples of fiercely independent women.
ReplyDeleteBut in the context of Ros in particular, it rings hollow. Pretty Pia more or less is Ros in the context of Jaime's narratives, only you never get a "PIA" chapter. Why? Because her development can be handled through the examination of something else. I won't go into spoilers on that front, but it directly conflicts with what has happened with Ros.Ros is clearly an author insert and she's a poorly constructed one. I don't necessarily see what is making her more important given the last scene. Again, they explain things that we already understood from previous ones. At the end of "The North Remembers" we see that Ros dislikes the idea of babies being killed. This did not require her to have a long-winded jawing session with Littlefinger in which we again see she dislikes dead babies and he's a coldhearted bastard. S1 should have wrapped up the latter.
The issue is necessity here. She is excessive. The story is too crammed on Martin's things to randomly introduce things about Ros that don't influence it. What concerns are there for "exploitation" in an HBO series, seriously? Esme Bianca gets paid a lot of money to do what everyone else is doing - acting.
I'd rather there was NO ROS than a "slightly more developed Ros" because every time they "develop" her on her own, it takes away from the story. We can't afford filler and development for the sake of development is filler. Is this so we care when she gets "Chataya'd"?
Sexposition serves the same dumbed-down logic that has made Asha become Yara and Osha consume the Reeds. It's an effective tool, but it's pointless when you start using exposition to explain your sexposition.
Develop characters that matter to the story. Don't make the story halt so you can develop someone that was made up. Again, HBO writers < Martin. It was a #1 Best Seller for a reason and it wasn't hookers with hearts of gold.
I'm clinging too strongly to the notion of a narrative, not the novels. There have been changes that made sense for the television show, but there are also those that you can't just say "TV is different" and allow.
ReplyDeleteRos is a glaring example of this. The consolidation of characters is annoying, but it makes sense. I'd love a Blackfish, but Egan served the role well enough. I'd love a Ironhand, but Bronn will do.
There are some things that are flat out better. Cersei/Tyrion in the show is superior. Cersei/Littlefinger is a scene that was excellent and I wish was in the book. Hell, they can even show stuff out of order like Jaime and Cersei which was in ASOS, but they put in S1.
I don't view the book as some kind of holy artifact, but I would like it if things weren't changed for the sake of changing them. Rakharo's death was unnecessary. Downplaying Rhaegar Targaryen and the Kingsguard is silly. These are things that matter later on and they'll either have to rush to explain or just not use at all, both of which suck.
I'm honestly flabbergasted if someone could not put together that Littlefinger is a devious little toad. The scene was over kill. It reminded me of Spartacus when they'd have the clearly bad guys killing innocent people. What did it establish? I already know they're bad.
Hell, to keep it in ASOIAF. It reminds me of Ramsay Bolton in general.
I think "there is not time" is an interesting angle to use when considering that everything Ros does on her own is taking away from someone else. When she develops alongside someone else, at the very least it permits us to have her develop and that other person.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, she is her own POV and it's just not likable.
It's also interesting to use the "GRRM can't cut stuff down" thing and that's true. Unfortunately, neither can the television crew. Ep 1 was so thin it was saddening and Ep 2 didn't really address much for someone that hadn't read the books.
Why is it unrealistic to expect characters from the books to be in the show? Why is it unrealistic to expect dialog not to be changed whenever it's convenient? Why is it unrealistic to dislike the introduction of new characters when existing ones are ignored?
All of their constraints would be lightened if they scaled back on Ros and told us the story we all loved to read.
Okay, I have a lot more thoughts I'll share once I'm done work, but I would like to address the idea of Rakharo's death. My argument is that, because this is TV, it WAS necessary and not just an arbitrary LOOK WE CAN CONTROL THE STORY move.
ReplyDeleteDany's plot in Book 2 is quite minimal. She has some fantastic moments, but doesn't do nearly as much as she did in Book 1. In a series of novels, it wasn't as important for us to immediately reconnect with the person starring in the end of book cliffhanger. This is something done relatively often in writing.
On TV, however, it absolutely is necessary. We can't just say HEY DRAGONS and then leave viewers waiting for several episodes of the new season. I wish we could, but that's not how TV works. Serialized television tends to be all about the idea of dealing with consequences. Shoving Dany's story off to the side so she has one scene every two episodes isn't as good an option (TVwise) as accordianing her plot out a little bit.
In order to extend Dany's plot, we need to up the stakes for the scenes she is actually in. Killing her horse was perhaps a tad unnecessary, but killing Rakharo gave her plot and hopelessness more meaning. It was necessary to give her a scene in the episode that held more weight than "we are starving in the desert", which we established last episode. What the book provided wasn't enough dramatically until that point.
The issue is that we've lost a good chunk of Dany's characters that matter later on in the books, which means that at this point Dany's story HAS to be different.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that they ruined an easy reason for "Dany is suffering" by killing off Mago. Mago DOES kidnap and rape Ereoh. It'd have been enough for them to have that happen to her or one of the handmaidens. Hell, instead of killing her, send her back and have her be devestated by it. Dany is given her reason to keep on, even though she's lost something and we still don't lose characters that are in the story.
But changes like "Drogo gets a badass scene when he kills Mago" work for TV and end up changing the narrative. The whole Dothraki arc is just FUBAR.
I'm also betting that we won't see the Rhaegar flashback, because HBO will find itself choosing between that and something like Ros learning to do needlework to cope with her sadness.
Rakharo's death just couldn't be -necessary-. Would Dany's story be a little boring? I don't know. It'd basically be "the Road" and people seemed to like that. Showing her wandering was fine, their exhaustion was great. Killing Rakharo did not seem like it helped anything.
Hell, they added some odd attraction between them which I already wasn't fond of.
I like the drama brought by Rakharo 's death honestly. His death may not have been necessary, but they had to kill him or recast him.
ReplyDeleteIf they did not kill Rakharo they would have had to recast him seeing as Elyes Gabel was unavailable for most of the filming period due to get a major film role. If they did recast him many people would still be thinking it was a different Dothraki or a new Bloodrider anyway since it was a different actor playing him.
I liked Gabel as Rakharo a lot so I will miss the performance, but not the character.
I didn't know Gabel was contractually incapable of returning full-time to the season. Of course, they could have just had him ride off and return later, but... I guess their solution is a "fix".
ReplyDeleteOf course, if "narrative is boring" is an excuse to start killing characters we'll have a wagon of dead people from Bran's perspective until ADWD.
I don't think they would have killed
ReplyDeleteRakharo at this point if Gabel was available. It was their choice of how to deal with limited options and not a purposeful choice to tweak the story.
If I recall right it's a role in "World War Z" opposite Brad Pitt, Marielle Enos, Mathew Fox and others I cannot remember. I think it's fairly big role too from what I heard. I haven't followed the project though honestly.
This article sums up EXACTLY how I feel about Ros.
ReplyDelete*applauds* well said!!!!
She should abandon Kings Landing and go back to Winterfell.
ReplyDeleteI think both points you and Darque made are correct, but I feel like there is substance to her, despite that she is a "device". She's not a throw away character as of yet, because she is bridging us with all of these people and events, but I also think the character does have her own story which is growing. Her performances with other characters has been great and there not mild performances, (For instances even though we saw a rather unsympathetic side to Little Finger, I can't say that his performance out shined hers) because Ros has this great spirit to her. Something really resilient and determined.
ReplyDeleteMy plan at this point is just to finish AGOT and not venture to the other books until after each season airs, although I speculate some things in further books will probably be shown sooner, but I think it will server me better to try to do it that way.
ReplyDeleteI do think there are somewhat unessessary nude scenes, or scenes over stayed too long, but I accept that this is part of HBO's shock-factor.
ReplyDeleteWith True Blood there were more of those scenes earlier on and as seasons progressed there wasn't as many, or only really iconic needed moments, have started to be presented.
Some people might argue the same about the level of violence, but for something like AGOT I think they can get away with it, because this oversexed, over-violenced aspect goes hand in hand with the people and the war-like nature of this world. It's really a very aggressive Man's world where women have really fight (in any way they can) for a place in it.
The tagline should be "Even if you don't play the game of thrones, you can die."
Exactly this scene didn't show us that he was fun and plotting, it showed him loathing and vein. It's a darker level than what some may have known about him prior to the scene.
ReplyDeleteSince the idea of Ros obviously displays differences between the show and the novels, one other point I would like to make is that really despite this argument of lack of certain scenes verses the additions of others, might be somewhat moot, because George R. R. Martin has yet to finish his series, and there for despite what any of us think, book readers and non book readers alike, we are all in the same boat because we don't know what Mr. Martin's final message will be. With out knowing that, can any of us really whole-heartedly judge the significance of any scene or event?
ReplyDeleteOne thing I learned from being a Bad Robot fan is that there is more than one way to covey an idea and more than one way to get to a certain point, and more than one way to give out the same messages.
I can guarantee I cared much more for Alayaya when they mistook her for Shae than I ever will for Ros, even though Alayaya was such a minor character in comparison to the latter.
ReplyDeleteDitto to the Yara/Asha and Osha/Reeds comment. I still have hopes they cast the Reeds for season 2, though.
That's definitely a way to cope with the changes they've made in the show, BUT as TV is much more picturesque than books, I'd rather find out what happens from the book so I can be shocked, emotional and whatnot while reading, cause if a show is good, imma enjoy it even knowing what will happen, while it doesn't necessarily happens with a book in my case. I'm not too crazy for reading in general (guilty), so I find it kinda hard to read a book I already know the ending of. Watching a show, on the other hand, gives me a whole new possibility to enjoy the plot cause on TV it combines with acting, sceneries, costumes and a whole lotta other things I can aprreciate on top of the plot itself.
ReplyDeleteI hope I'm making some sense here, this comment seems a bit confusing... :P
anyways, have it your way and enjoy!
I'm not quite as attached to her as that, but I certainly wouldn't be against further development. I definitely think she is a capable actress and would enjoy seeing her become more of a person while still connecting powerful men.
ReplyDeleteMy argument about exploitation has nothing to do with the exploitation present WITHIN the series. I'm not complaining about the existence of whores or a lack of strong women. Although I think that your latter claim is false (Cersei, Arya, and Catelyn exist). That would be silly. There is, however, a distinction between characters exploiting women and HBO exploiting women. Like I said, Melisandre's nakedness was more than fine because it served a purpose. Even the idea of 100 naked women sitting in a brothel makes sense in order to set the scene; however, some of the excessive sex that does not serve to tell us anything about the characters OR set the mood could be arguably considered exploitation.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, you claim to be a more of a fan of narrative than a book purist, but I would argue that that's not true. The line between filler and story can be murky in adaptations. Why do changes necessarily have to be filler? I can see that you simply don't like the Ros character, which is fine and I understand why you consider her filler. But I think that this also speaks to some larger issues about sticking to the book or not. Butterfly Effect paranoia is to be expected, but we can't get caught up in it if we're going to enjoy the show.
Also, to be fair, even Martin's stuff isn't always necessary. Do we really need a Dick Crabb on TV (or plenty of other side characters in Book 4)? I think not.
That isn't to say that new things might not be bad. Of course they can be and we should be critical of them, but we also shouldn't be HYPER critical just because Martin is a genius and we want to the show to happen exactly as the book did.
I mean you're even arguing about how Mago's death was a disturbing shift away from Martin's narrative. Really? Do we think anyone who watches the show is going to remember "Dothraki who yelled at Khal Drogo" five seasons down the line? I'm sure many people didn't even notice during the novels. I certainly didn't until a reread, which was nice, sure, and consistent (I prefer Martin do this than add a new character in a novel because he can), but it's simply not possible on TV. The actor could have been busy 4 seasons from now and another Dothraki will do just fine.
So, I completely get/understand your concerns, but I still stick by the idea that we need to get away from this whole BOOK VS. SHOW dichotomy and treat it more like Book AND Show. Criticize where necessary, but not BECAUSE it changes.
True story. I think, if the show is going to continue, we may wind up with the last two seasons diverging as Martin finishes up his books.
ReplyDeleteAlso, this is a REALLY interesting conversation. Thanks for participating :P. If there's one thing I absolutely want to do with my articles, its to spur discussion.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha, thanks :D. Most people do not agree xD. I actually found the article on another site (slightly edited) containing almost 400 comments that amounted to NOPE, YOU'RE STUPID!
ReplyDeletehttp://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/68073096.html
Yes! :D I did enjoy the finale! I felt it was a perfect ending for what that story invoked. I felt like I had enough information to answer the bigger picture aspect of the Island, and that despite the truth of that, those things still only emphasize the emotional journey of any one life or experience a being can have. Bad Robot just has this great sense of empiricism and making viewers aware and question identity and the realization of change. There really are only a couple of works they have made where somehow those things weren't executed right, but I never get sick of seeing how they're going to tell a story about being human and our rights of passage, or our responsibility of attempting to understand ourselves, ect. Because their stuff is similar and stylized, it's fun to be able to compare them all to each other and to see them come from different angles.
ReplyDeleteBut I also agree that HBO may part ways at some point...
On the topic of strong females and then listing Arya, Cersei, and Catelyn...
ReplyDeleteWhile I am a fan of the Lannisters, Cersei sadly is better portrayed in the series than she is in he books. In the books, she takes a dosage of "chaotic stupid" and begins to do things that range from stupid to insane. I'd list them off, but that's not really the point. Catelyn, as well, is largely a superstitious harridan in the books that ends up dying for it, and Arya... well, she's too "scared" to be a wolf through most of it, and then she goes to Esseros and I guess you can call that "strength" or "ninja training gone wrong".
Point being, the female narratives are not very dynamic or powerful in that they are "strong". The strength of a woman is tied to her uterus for nigh everyone except for Brienne, because Arya is too young to have that ability as of yet and Sansa is pretty much being chambered until she's ready to use her uterus for the betterment of [spoiler's] purposes.
I don't think exploitation should enter the topic at all. It creates a [victim] in a speculative fiction arena that makes people that don't see it as "bad" suddenly boorish and cruel. When I watch AGOT, I honestly don't consider anyone being victimized, but I could be desensitized to HBO because I've watched it since I was a tyke and shows like Oz were the standard for their programming.
I honestly found Melisandre's sex scene to be more off-putting than the brothel scene. The reason being that Melisandre's scene was pretty much just chewing up time and showing people Carice von Houten's breasts. The other scenes dealt with someone describing something that went hand-in-hand with the scene. Theon was on a boat so he was having sex with the man's daughter. They were in a brothel, so people were having sex.
Melisandre orders everyone out of the room and then "seduces" Stannis? Other than being a hammy way to tell us they axed Shireen, it didn't really serve a purpose beyond what we'd know anyone if they kept with the narrative. I mean, I'm fairly certain we'll get to see what Davos sees later on, and that was the only "clue" people needed.
Oh well. Next week's episode is soon to be here. I feel I'll be checking on this blog to see what you think. :S
You should also redact the huge spoiler in the first paragraph :P.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, I see your point about Melisandre/Stannis. What I meant was more that I understand the importance of the nudity in that scene from a functional perspective. I thought it made sense storywise in order to set the stage for what's to come.
On the other hand, I do feel that the Dragonstone plot has been awkwardly handled thus far and hammy is a good word to describe that scene. A lot has been cut for the sake of time and so the impact anything ought to have had isn't there. Stannis' second scene showed us that he was an honourable man to a fault. His third scene showed him cheating on his wife. A little too soon I think. This is a situation where the POV in the novel made more sense (Davos realising things later) than actively seeing it on the screen.
I have similar feelings about the Loras/Renly scene in Season 1. I have no issues with the scene existing or male nudity or anything like that. I just wish their relationship had been set up in a more subtle fashion. I mean, it only registered on my third pass through the books. It would have been fun to leave that for a S2 reveal or something (during the "praying" scene perhaps).
So in that sense, I absolutely do have certain issues with TV vs. Book.
On the other hand, I love when they add little scenes here and their between non-POV characters (like the Varys/Littlefinger confrontations in the throne room in S1) because it fleshes out the world better. There are moments to take advantage of television story telling and moments that don't do it well.
Okay, now, to address the issue of exploitation, I want to point out that there is a HUGE difference between acknowledging the existence of a problem and calling someone sexist. Jon Stewart said it best when he pointed out that the left has the unfortunate tendency of throwing the word bigot around a little too often. I certainly didn't mean to imply anything about you being cruel or boorish.
That being, I think that it is important to acknowledge such issues. They exist. Just because its fiction doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge them. And I'm not even pointing out problems WITHIN the story. The problems here lie outside of the story and within the realm of what HBO and the writers choose to put on the screen. Yes, the women are paid for their efforts, but it doesn't mean they aren't being exploited. Check out hundreds of music videos or porn to see what I mean lol.
Furthermore, just because we're desensitized to the issue at hand or because HBO does it all the time, doesn't mean we should just accept it every time it happens. Shows (or anything else for that matter) can often be problematic or contradictory in their messages and its up to us as critical thinkers to acknowledge them.
Is the nudity necessary artistically, or is HBO taking advantage of women for the sake of HEY! BOOBS!? I think the answer is somewhere in the middle and can only be discussed on a scene-by-scene basis. If you're not bothered by it, it doesn't make you directly responsible for the exploitation :P. But I think it's worth bringing up as a talking point. Just like diversity casting.
Anyway, glad to have you on board!
I took out the two major spoilers, but left in "chaotic stupid" because for however I may feel about the show, they have been handling Cersei's transition much better than GRRM did at certain points.
ReplyDeleteWe're in agreement about a lot of things. I also like some of the added things, but namely when they deal with characters we already know. Littlefinger/Varys having their little stand-off, Cersei/Litterfinger, Robert/Jaime/Barristan. Jaime/Jory. Hell, Robert/Cersei. They were all good and natural additions.
And I agree about Loras/Renly. While I can appreciate that they wanted it to be more overt (because as you said, in the book it's very low key until Stannis says his line to Renly about Margaery), HBO "pushed the buck" and gave fangirls something to see. And in its essence, I can't even fault them for it. I watch the show with my girlfriend (she's a huge Dany fan) and she often complains that nudity is limited to women... which ties back into your exploitation thing.
That being said, what I didn't like was that they emasculated Renly to prove he was a homosexual. He was homosexual in the books, but he was for all intents and purposes a jocular guy that was really flippant about other people. He wasn't "soft" or "afraid of blood" and he idolized Robert, he didn't huff at him for talking about the war. The line that stood out most to me to characterize him was when he brought Ned a picture of Marg to ask if she looked like Lyanna and Ned said no.
He -wanted to be Robert-. Makes sense for the kid brother who has big brother as the king (also makes sense for Stannis to resent them both. Jan Baratheon!)
The show trivialized all that and gave us a very "stereotypical" (by movie standards) homosexual male, and even if they toughen him up the damage is done.
As for the exploitation thing. I don't know, it could be that I try not to see women as something of a victim of circumstance. It is true, HBO has them show off their breasts and a merkin from time to time, BUT men tend to be objectified as well. Perhaps it isn't a swinging shot (save for Theon), but they're also primarily used as eye-candy for female viewers. Of course, there are less of them so it doesn't work out the way it should if all things were "equal".
If HBO treated its actors poorly, I'd be more concerned than if burlesque dancers and porn stars were shown naked on screen. As far as I know, the women primarily shown nude have come from either of those fields; Sahara Knite (Armeca) is/was a porn worker, same with Sibel Kikelli (Shae) and Esme Bianca (Roz) worked burlesque photos or something of that nature.
On the top of exploitation in pornography, I'm afraid that's an entirely different topic and we'd just end up butting heads forever. I will say that I think the exploitation in that is not a matter of man/woman, but rather predator/prey.
And about Dragonstone, I think they just have too much on their plate. Stannis is so important and yet they have to introduce, explain, and give us a reason to care about his claim in little 5 minute blurbs. I love Carice von Houten, I really do - she was great in Black Death and she has the look of Melisandre to an extent, but... it's the weakest part of the story right now.
Then again, I honestly didn't like Melisandre until ADWD so it could just be me. We'll see tonight!
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ReplyDeleteI like Ros, I think she is one of those rare characters in the series who is really goodhearted. Now that Varys is apparently plotting against Little Finger she is probably becoming a more prominent character. I also think (although I may be wrong) that her purpose in the series is to take the place of Jeyne Poole when the moment comes...
ReplyDeleteI wish that they didn't kill off her character so fast. She was just starting to get interesting…at least another one or two more scenes with Varys? I'm disappointed with the speed that she was killed after she started working with the Spider.
ReplyDelete