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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

POLL : What did you think of Game of Thrones - Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken?

18 May 2015

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125 comments:

  1. nobody18 May 2015 at 03:00

    Poor Sansa.

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  2. Alii Joee18 May 2015 at 03:08

    This season is wierd... It dosnt feel like game of thrones... Its boring and slow... All what happened in 6 episodes can make it in 2.

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  3. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 03:12

    This was really stupid. The series is becoming stupid. Sansa is still stupid.

    It would have worked if Sansa would have knocked out Ramsay. But this has too far gone. Just stupid. And all this happens when Tyrion is thousand miles away from the reason why he left Shae. STUPID EPISODE



    Were are the experts who thought it was a good idea of Sansa to stay with that f**ing bastard littlefinger?

    This was the worst episode of the series. Only the scenes with Tyrion and Jaime were good. It's either stupid or boring what happened during the last two episodes.

    The first four episodes were some of the best ones. Especially because of Jon. But if I would have known what happens during this episode I would not have watched it. It's not just because of this stupid rape scene at the end.

    Maybe season 6 is going to be better with Jon becoming Jon T.

    But at this point the series is just about Sansa being stupid and Danaerys being stupid and crazy.

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  4. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 03:14

    Yeah. You could make two for all the good Jon scenes and one for the good Tyrion and Jaime scenes. But all the other things that happended are just stupid or boring.

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  5. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 03:25

    I still angers me to see the Bolton flayed man as the sigil on the Winterfell location during the credits! Ugh!

    Braavos -
    - C'mon Arya... No one. Say it! No one... You are no one!
    - I loved the Arya and Jaqen scenes last time around, but as a mentor he is not as fun. I would have prefered Kindly Man I think....
    - At her first steps in the inner sanctum were awesome!

    Essos -
    - Tragic scene between Jorah and Tyrion.
    - I forgot AAA was playign a slaver, Tyrion's cunning saves the day!

    King's Landing -
    - Love how when confronted by Brother Lancel, Baelish jokes and walks away unscathed.
    - How awesome is QoT! ".. and famous tart, Queen Cersei!" XD
    Cersei is being out-gamed from every direction whether or not she is aware of it.
    - The High Sparrow's hearing was interesting! Cersei may smirk now, but she never has seen the long game as well as her father or siblings.

    Winterfell -
    - Myranda running her game, but Darth Sansa shut it down hard! You are dismissed! XD
    - Theon is such a pitiful character right now. He brought it on himself, but still...
    - No one may have died, but that was still one of the most uncomfortable weddings I've ever seen! That stated, by GOT standards it was a fairytale! XD
    - Ramsay may be on his best behavior, but even his best is pretty damned disturbing!

    Dorne -
    - Young love is cute and all, but better when overseen by Doran Martell and Areo Hotah!
    - I'm not a fan of how similar the uniforms of the Sand Sankes look (especially Tyene).
    - This retooling of the Queenmaker plot was disappointing. The fight was okay at times, bad at others, but overall a let down until bad ass Areo showed up pull rank.



    This season has arguably been the strongest as far as production, but I'm still uncertain of the story in various parts. Changes to the books needed to be made, but most changes have left me underwhelmed. Even many of the high points have fallen a little flat for me. I can't recall any other season being 5 episodes in with as little impact. This was largely a table-setter episode and just "Good" for me.

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  6. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 03:27

    It was the strongest season until episode 4. Now it is going to become the worst season I fear.

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  7. DiabetesMan18 May 2015 at 03:28

    With The Boltons being the villains this season I am hoping they get taken out in the end. But anyway it was a good episode and things are getting great.

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  8. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 03:35

    I really like the first few episodes as well, but this middle portion has been lacking to me. None of the episode have been "bad" exactly, but they have not moved me I guess.

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  9. Daniel18 May 2015 at 04:07

    http://nerdexaminer.com/game-of-thrones-episode-6-review/



    more game of thrones opinions

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  10. kayell18 May 2015 at 04:34

    I felt it dragged, don't know what it is since the pacing is as it has always been. I guess King's Landing, Sansa in Winterfell, and Arya in Braavos are all kind of meh.

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  11. DarthLocke418 May 2015 at 05:20

    Some episodes are just too choppy IMO. I thought this one was off to a good start with Arya, but then it tried to sprinkle a bit of Dorne, a bit of Valantis, a bit of Kings landing, and squeeze in a wedding where a lot didn't really happen and where everything feels like a shout out to last season without a lot of progress or without everything feeling very connected. I don't know, there's almost a lack of an epic feeling...


    I kind of suspect that this is a bridging season though, especially if there really are only 2 more seasons left. The last few episodes of the season could make up for the difference too. .So I'll wait before I am too critical

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  12. DarthLocke418 May 2015 at 05:22

    I'm still hoping there will be a major turn over with Sansa, but I was surprised how they squeezed the wedding in...I'm wondering though how much Theon will take?!

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  13. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 05:25

    This just goes to show that as great as Benioff and Weiss are, why GRRM is another class apart.

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  14. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 05:45

    I do think D&D can be great at times, but I think handling this part of the adaption may be beyond them... After all it was beyond even GRRM's talents as well! XD

    With all the characters's worlds expending in their travels and the introduction of numerous new characters the world of Game of thrones is at its largest right now. I think everyone knew this season would be a huge struggle to deal with so many regions and characters in only ten 50-minute episodes.

    As counter-intuitive as is it I think that D&D attempts to move faster than the books have caused many people to complain about things moving so slowly or feeling choppy. The sense of urgency is missing when things move this fast. It's the visual equivalent of reading the Cliff's Notes version of a book. We jump from necessary event to necessary event with most of those events having am organic build-up to give them impact and drama.

    I thought the first 2 episode were awesome at dealing with build up and pace. Even the next two episodes did a fairly good job, but the last two have done poorly IMO. Maybe I'm just down on tonight's episode?

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  15. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 05:54

    I would really loved another episode of build up and dread before the wedding took place.


    As it was it felt like an addendum tacked on. Like the episode was running short so they filmed an 8 minute scene to fill the space. A very strange feeling to me since, if you add in the previous bath scene with Myranda, Sansa's wedding took 11 minutes out of a 55-minute episode. I think for taking up a fifth of the episode it should have had more impact. Maybe it did for other people?

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  16. Tesla18 May 2015 at 06:04

    I don't really think Brienne has the ability to protect anyone, least of all Sansa. I've long since given up on what characters deserve though.

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  17. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 06:05

    Wtf? Isn't Sansa supposed to be getting better at playing the game? Isn't she supposed to stop being the victim? This bit of victimization sent her character back to King's Landing and under Joffrey's thumb. Here I was hoping to see more of dark, manipulative Sansa (you know, the one that's supposed to be a replacement for Stoneheart), but apparently, she hasn't changed at all.

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  18. Tesla18 May 2015 at 06:06

    yeh, this season has felt very transitional to me. Not to say nothing enjoyable to watch happens, hard to believe they will cover everything in two more seasons.

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  19. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 06:17

    I look at it a little bit differently I guess..

    I did not enjoy the rape scene. I found it disturbing as it was designed to be. However, I think when they made the decision to have Sansa marry Ramsay the rape became almost necessary. Ramsay is who he is and he does what he does. They could not change his character into some passive husband who does not act out. Well not IMO at least.

    Despite that scene I think Sansa has grown and is playing the game. Sometimes when you are dealt a losing hand you will lose no matter what you do. The key is to not lose too much, stay alive and at when the moment is right make the play that changes everything.



    I do wonder though...
    While I never thought Sansa would take on the LS role to any large degree, if D&D do go that route Sansa has to go through something to transform her. Maybe this event will be the point that changes her, breaks her and makes her go very dark. It might work...

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  20. nobody18 May 2015 at 06:20

    I have no doubt that Brienna could have "spirited" Sansa to the "Wall" where her "bastard brother" now Lord Commander of the Night's Watch Jon Snow would have protected her and Stannis and army were there or marching to Winterfell leaving Sansa beyond the reach of Roose and Ramsay Bolton, but spilled milk and water under the bridge as they say. Nobody 4 EVER!!!

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  21. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 06:33

    But Sansa wasn't dealt a losing hand - that's the problem. Atleast, not at first. I agree that once the wedding was decided, the rape followed logically - but Sansa could've done a lot of things to forestall the wedding itself.

    Being as astute as she is supposed to be, she should've seen through Ramsay's sane facade (maybe she did) and realized that she would certainly not enjoy being married to this guy.

    She could've asked for a big wedding - "to consolidate the Bolton rule in the North, all the Northern Lords need to witness Sansa Stark willingly marrying Ramsay Bolton". That should've bought her a lot of time and brought a host of protectors to her side.

    She could've tried some of Margary's seductions techniques on Ramsay.

    She could've tried to get Roose to delay the wedding until his second son was born - Roose would've refused, ofcourse, but it'd have set the paranoid Ramsay on the path to killing Walda Frey. Again, that would've bought her some time.

    And she always had the option of not waiting for Stannis but running away to him (with the generous help of all those who've already offered it) and allying herself with him to take back Winterfell. Obviously, with Sansa Stark on his side, he'd definitely gain even more support.

    I kept expecting her to do something - anything really - to avoid the wedding for as long as possible because she didn't want to be a slave to another psychopath. She did nothing.

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  22. Tesla18 May 2015 at 06:38

    I mostly doubt her ability to do even that, given her history. Her first thought would probably be to take her to the Lannisters as well and not Jon.

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  23. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 06:40

    Are you nuts? Brienne's whole mission is to protect Sansa from the Lannisters. Why would she hand her over to them?

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  24. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 06:44

    All good ideas honestly. Maybe beyond her abilities though?
    I will add one more. She could have just gone with Brienne or at least attempted to leave with Brienne.



    One thing I'm not sure I agree with is the idea she is supposed to be that astute. I think she has grown, but maybe not quite that much. She can now recognize things for what they are, but she still does not have the ability move all the pieces how she needs. I think she knew the marriage would be terrible for her, but she placed her trust in Littlefinger's plan. I have no idea why...

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  25. Tesla18 May 2015 at 06:44

    my opinion of her just pretty low, Id doubt anything she says given that she can't rwally do anything.

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  26. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 06:58

    Littlefinger's plan for her was to "make this boy, Ramsay, her own" and use him to outmaneuver Roose. She doesn't need to be an overnight success here - like Margery was with Joffrey - but I'd like to see her try atleast.

    And asking for other northern lords to be present for and witness her wedding isn't such a big deal. She could've done it over dinner one night.

    Or she could've atleast ascertained the avenues of escape available to her. Right now, she just has her maid's word that people are ready to help her if she needs them. I'd like her to try and find out who'd come to help her and whether they are reliable - or would she simply be changing one master for another as she has done twice already.

    Right now, she has something that the Bolton's need - her name. And her name has value only till she gives them an heir. But until she does that and stops short of open rebellion, the Boltons wouldn't harm her. I can get behind her trying something and failing - even better if she does it subtly - but its the passive victimization that undoes all her character development.

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  27. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 07:02

    I think the books - Feast and Dance - were pretty transitional as well. But I don't think they'll finish everything in the next two seasons.

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  28. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 07:20

    I don't disagree with you that she could have played it better... somehow.

    I would have liked it to play out more slowly with Sansa attempting to delay things or work her way out of it, but D&D have a limited number of scenes and screen time for her arc. They know what will fit and what will not. Maybe there is no time for a drawn out engagement. Maybe there was no time to show her gamesmanship by delaying things. I don't know.

    Honestly her arc has puzzled me from the first time I learned about the direction D&D were planning on taking it. I'm not sold, but I'm trying to be patient.. Right now her actions in the last few episodes have not bothered me very much. When the season is over I may have more complaints about what was sacrificed where.

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  29. ragul18 May 2015 at 07:38

    SHOCKED,NEVER A FAN OF USING "RAPE" AS A STORYPLOT.but this is taking place in medieval times,.i m literally hoping to brienna to march in and chop off their fucking heads.

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  30. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 07:40

    I'm sorry to keep this discussion going despite your agreement, but I just need to vent a little.

    Arya was supposed to head to Braavos about an episode or two after the Red Wedding - instead they had her dicking around with the Hound for the whole season. And that was pretty damn good.

    The problem here is the opposite. Here, they don't need to create the filler - there is plenty of exciting stuff that is supposed to be happening that could easily fill the season where North is concerned. Sansa could've stayed in Vale and observed Littlefinger manipulate one lord after another. Stannis isn't supposed to attack Winterfell yet, he is supposed to gather supporters from Northern Lords and tribesmen. Yara Greyjoy is supposed to be still ravaging the North as an enemy to both Stannis and Roose. Where the hell are the ironborn this season? Is Balon still alive? What about the third leech? Instead of developing on all these storylines, waiting for more source material to be released, they instead chose to hurry it along, hastily put Sansa in Jeyne Poole's role and revert to her season 2 persona in the process.

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  31. ragul18 May 2015 at 07:51

    DAMMIT, i cant seem to talk abt this ep without my comments getting moderated. :-(

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  32. Lord Varys18 May 2015 at 07:54

    I hate what the writers are doing to these amazing characters and this rich world George RR Martin created. I don't feel like watching at all anymore. What they did to Sansa last night was the final straw.

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  33. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 07:58

    Vent away! XD
    For what it's worth, you're preaching to the choir!

    I'm in the minority I think, but I understood cutting Coldhands and Stoneheart. As cool as the characters are I do not think they add much to the larger narrative. Admittedly we do not know for sure exactly what Stoneheart adds until the next book comes out.

    Sometime last year I assumed the Greyjoy brothers would be cut and I was okay with that as well. They had Daario get Dany her ships and anything else important down the road can be transferred to a character already on the show. I also accepted that without Arianne we probably will not get the "Griffs" as well. Production notes pretty much confirmed that later.

    Even with those huge cuts I've felt that AFFC and ADWD should be more than one season. With all those arcs cut there would still be more characters in more locations requiring more scenes.



    I'm trying to hold off on complaints for those arcs that arcs that are new and have not played out to their end. D&D have made me second guess myself before. Them playing up Loras's gayness really annoyed me at the time, but now it makes sense since they used that for the High Sparrow arc in place of Margaery's infidelities. So I'll wait and see....

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  34. ShatteredOne18 May 2015 at 08:20

    I was looking at the episode number of the episode and I couldn't believe this was the 6th episode. This season has been pretty slow, and for some parts I think that could be ok, but on the whole, this whole season is down a few pegs from Seasons 1-4. I feel like nothing much at all has happened all season.

    -Arya's journey, while interesting, is pretty damn slow right now and potentially will get more interesting from here on
    -Dany's story is interesting, but also kinda slow with her still in the same city and not conquering more slavers
    -Tyrion, who I was hoping would have met with Dany by now, has by far the most interesting the story and he's probably the only one I really look forward to at the moment
    -Sansa's is an interesting one, where I want to see what will become of it, and I'm hoping for the fall of the Boltons. I fear though that Brienne is going to muck everything up. I'm figuring Stannis will win and be able to retake Winterfell, but Brienne will end up doing something stupid. She's had no real purpose on the show, regardless of what she claims, since she left King's Landing.
    -Jon's is just as boring as always. Not a fan of his story, either in the show or the books. The best parts were him as a mole and with Ygritte.
    -Cersei... God I hope this whole Faith Militant thing blows up in her face big time. She's been winning for too damn long now
    -Jaime/Bronn, their whole mission has been slow and the fight that occurred was incredibly disappointing and kinda stupidly put together (writing wise) for so much build up. We'll see where that goes.

    All in all, the episode was about on par with what the season has produced. This I think was the 2nd most brutal wedding to get through. Red Wedding is still #1. But Sansa, her character is so young and the actress is fairly young as well, which just made it all the more brutal. Yes, we get it, Ramsay is a sick, depraved, sadistic creep... we don't need constant reminders. Hopefully this treatment of Sansa will kind of light a fire underneath Theon, maybe he'll be the one to kill Ramsay. It would finally give his character something to do.

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  35. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 08:30

    Can you explain this to me, because I don't understand all these cuts at all.

    Cutting out unnecessary character and re-assigning their arcs to others makes sense in movie adaptations of finished books - you know, where there is a strict time constraint and a limited number of movies to be made.

    Here, not only do they not have all the source material, they are also not in any kind of rush. They could easily stretch the remaining available story over 2 seasons and wait for Martin to give them the rest of it. As it stands now, they can easily finish off all the arcs available within this season. But why are they so hellbent on doing that?

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  36. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 08:41

    It could be argued that Sansa knew what was going to happen(minus the Reek part) and it's a part of her plan. If it is indeed portrayed that she was victimized, I will be severely disappointed and pissed. On the other hand, if this is part of her plan for vengeance, and it's written well, it could turn into an interesting arc.

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  37. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 08:42

    "Hopefully this treatment of Sansa will kind of light a fire underneath
    Theon, maybe he'll be the one to kill Ramsay. It would finally give his
    character something to do."


    Hopefully, this treatment of Sansa will kind of light a fire underneath Sansa. I want her to start killing people.

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  38. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 08:43

    Short answer?
    I have no idea! XD

    Long answer?
    In the early seasons of production they made a comment about not wanting to wear out their welcome and that they hoped for I think it was 70 or 80 hours for the series.

    Despite D&D and a few other crew members talking about 7 seasons, I still held out for 8 seasons until this Season 5 production season. They really made it clear that they had a seven year plan.

    HBO executives have stated they want the show to run as long as it can... Meaning as long as it brings in the type of numbers that make it worth while of course, but that would mean more than 7 seasons was possible in their eyes.

    I always thought 8 seasons was a minimum.
    One for each AGOT and AKOC, two for ASOS, about 1.5 seasons for AFFC and ADWD, and 2.5 seasons for the last two books. That assumes GRRM finishes the saga in 7 books! XD

    I'm almost positive D&D will go beyond the released material in a couple arcs this year. Arya's will go beyond ADWD to at least one chapter from ADOS. I would not be shocked if after the changes to Dany's arc she ends up at a place further into the story than the ADWD material as well.

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  39. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 08:44

    That's a pretty big if. I don't see what she could accomplish by allowing herself to get raped that she wouldn't be able to without it.

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  40. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 08:49

    I agree that D&D had a near impossible job. But I must say that they could have done a better job. Dorne(casting, acting, writing, plot, amount of screen time) has been a big disappointment for me. They have wasted very valuable screen-time for many useless subplots they created which could have been used to flesh out the main plot better.
    I wasn't fully excited to see this season of GoT before it aired(cause I was afraid it would spoil the books), but now I'm not fully excited for whole other reason.

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  41. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 08:53

    That kind of thinking makes sense in the early stages. "Let's try to go for 1 season per book. We don't want to stretch it too long and leave people unsatisfied if the show doesn't become popular and seems like it might be cancelled".

    But now that they have a great story to tell and a worldwide audience willing to hear, why would they stick to their arbitrary 7/8 year plan?

    On one hand we have Peter Jackson who stretched a 300 page book into a trilogy and made up stuff that didn't fit and here we have guys cutting out parts of the story that fit perfectly. Madness.

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  42. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 08:53

    Agreed.

    Although if working to avoid it would have made things worse, which is a distinct possibility, then accepting it and moving on from it may not be a bad plan. I guess she could have just realized it was unavoidable like azrael stated above. Not really embracing it or working it into a plan, but acquiescing to it knowing there was nothing to be done to avoid it.

    I think Sansa (or those who still support House Stark) will come up with a plan to get her out of it. I'm guessing she will have an active hand it is as well and not just be the usual pawn she has played.

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  43. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 08:53

    I agree that it's a big if. But I'm hoping that's the case and with good writing, they can make it make sense. The alternative as you said is just plain dumb and uninteresting. I don't want to see a traumatized Sansa coming to grips the next few episodes. I want to see the cold hearted, manipulative Sansa who is willing to do anything for revenge put the next steps of her plan in motion.

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  44. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 08:59

    I'm not sure...
    I know there are production cost issues. The main actors are under contract for 6 seasons if I recall, so extending a great deal beyond that may cost too much. A lot of people guess that they will split the "sixth" season" into two parts like Mad Men did. Basically turn one season into two avoiding the need for new contracts... Who knows.

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  45. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 09:02

    "Although if working to avoid it would have made things worse, which is a
    distinct possibility, then accepting it and moving on from it may not
    be a bad plan."


    Again, that takes her back to her season 2 persona. Joffrey was going to have her beaten no matter what - so all she could do was put on a brave face, accept it and move on. Similarly, Ramsey is going to rape her no matter what - so all she can do is put on a brave face, accept it and move on. How is it any different than the way she was before?

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  46. Lou18 May 2015 at 09:04

    Unfortunately once they made it clear Sansa was marrying that dickhead (refuse to use a name) then that terrible plot from the books was going to happen. I really wish it hadn't happened, its the low point of the series for me. I hate everything about it. Now I dream of revenge, sweet sweet revenge and the most horrible death possible for that dick.


    Onto other points I continue to love Bronn with all my heart, I kind of wish Bronn, Jamie, Jorah and Tyrion could have an adventure together because that would be hilarious.


    The music during Arya's scenes really stood out this week and made the creepiness around it all work.

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  47. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 09:05

    To be fair, the way it was described in books was way worse; only it didn't happen to a Stark.

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  48. Lou18 May 2015 at 09:07

    Oh I know its more horrific in the books but its still terrible to see on screen and kind of uncomfortable in many ways because we have seen Sansa (and Sophie Turner) grow up on screen and its like nope really don't want to see that happening to the character.

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  49. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 09:08

    In the vague sense maybe it is little different, but I think that it is looking at it the wrong way honestly.


    Sansa is not a power player no matter how well she knows the game. She has no allies around her, she has no army, she is not a warrior, she has no wealth of her own... She has next to nothing to use as her advantage.


    I don't think it is fair to expect her to make power moves or make big plays. She needs find out her "captors" weaknesses, to build a power base, find allies, and build a plan. Until then she is just one person with the right name.

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  50. azrael_128918 May 2015 at 09:10

    Totally agree.

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  51. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 09:16

    Two more things.

    Littlefinger's plan makes so much sense and no sense at all at the same time. He already has control of Riverlands and Vale, is allied with Reach and is now making a play for the North. Fair enough. But going to battle is not his style. I really don't think he'd invade the North no matter who wins - Boltons or Stannis - because he has control of it either way - so what's the point of the Royal decree? Just to cover his ass? Or is he planning to use it as an excuse to strengthen Vale's foces right under Cersei's nose without raising suspicion. If Baelish switches sides and allies with Stannis (& if Stannis would have him) they can command North, Vale, Riverlands, Dragonstone and Stormlands (probably). Dorne and Iron Islands will stay out of it and Westerland's strength is almost spent. And Cersei is doing a fine job of eliminating her only support - the Reach. Everything would seem ripe for Littlefinger's taking - but he does not seem like a guy who'd go to war.

    One of the Sand Snakes sliced Bronn with her knife in the fight. I'm guessing she poisons her blades just like her father. So, I'm guessing Bronn won't return to get that bigger castle after all.

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  52. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 09:20

    In the casting auditions for one of the Sand Snakes there was some dialog that made it seem like Bronn was poisoned and Tyene was tormenting him as he suffered. It did not necessarily feel like his death was a certainty... Who knows though.

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  53. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 09:24

    Like Littlefinger said - sometimes a right name is all one needs. She could use her name to her advantage - like she did with the Lords of Vale. And she has a lot of information to use to her advantage as well. I don't expect her to make power moves or big plays - but I also don't expect her to be a passive victim once again.


    She may not have allies, but she can atleast start looking for some in her own camp.

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  54. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 09:28

    I don't think that this "needed to be done" to explain why Sansa is killing the people who murdered her father (littlefinger), mother and brother. Having married that guy made her just stupid. She already knew Joffrey but she was to stupid to see what Ramsay is.

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  55. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 09:32

    I agree completely Sansa needs to start looking into who she has around as possible allies.... Find out who exactly that old woman is and if she has connection to anyone or anything Sansa can use to her advantage.


    I'm not sure much of that could be done in the little bit of time she has been back in Winterfell. I'm also not sure how much of that we will see being as the last couple seasons each character at best 45 minutes of screen time per season and she has had 20 minutes or so already.

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  56. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 09:33

    She trusted that b***hole littlefinger obviously and this makes her the most stupid person of the world.

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  57. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 09:38

    The Bolton's killed her brother and she already knows. littlefinger killed her father and if she wouldn't be that stupid she would already have started to suspect. I don't see why THIS needed to happen to see her taking revenge.

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  58. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 09:39

    In that "little bit of time", Littlefinger reached King's Landing, Loras grew a beard and Arya graduated from scrubbing floors to washing dead bodies to changing her face. I'm guessing that little bit of time is one month atleast - and its not that little.

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  59. The Mysteries of Bob18 May 2015 at 09:40

    Disgusting episode, I'm done.

    Changing Sansa's storyline to rape her was enough.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 09:41

    Straw that broke the camel's back? I don't know - but given this episode, I think she should've made Petyr turn back at Moat Cailin.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 09:43

    They could have changed Sansa's storyline without this reasons. There were already enough reasons to hate the Boltons and littlefinger much more than Theon.

    ReplyDelete
  62. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 09:43

    My point was not that it needed to be done. It was that now that happened maybe she will have a psychotic break and go dark.

    Frankly, I assumed this would happen when Littlefinger se her up to marry Ramsay. She made a lot of wrong decisions before she got to that point for sure, but now there how could she realistically say no to the marriage?

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  63. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 09:48

    I could be completely wrong, but I seriously doubt she has had a lot of unsupervised time to plot or investigate. Even if she did get free how does she know who she can trust?

    ReplyDelete
  64. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 09:59

    I still hoped she would figure out what littlefinger did to her father (and that he for sure knew about the Red Wedding plans) and start to help herself before that wedding takes place.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Debsterforever18 May 2015 at 10:03

    When littlefinger told her "Let's marry the son of the guy who is responsible for the Red Wedding" she should have noticed what a devil littlefinger is.

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  66. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 10:07

    I guess I had more time to prepare for that scene since I suspected it from the production leaks months ago.


    I still don't know where the arc is going, but I hope Sansa plays a part in her own rescue or escape etc...


    In the books I had hope she hooks up with her uncle the Blackfish at some point! He would be a good mentor, especially compared to those around her lately.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 10:10

    She could start by talking to people around her.

    The problem is a lot of these excuses are the same ones used for her in season 2 - she is all alone and surrounded by her families enemies, she has no friends, no allies, no one to protect her, he every move is being watched by spies and she doesn't know who to trust, she is not a warrior, she has no wealth, no army, no way to make a plan and she is under the power of a psychopath and if she tries anything, it'll be all that worse for her - so all she can do is grin and bear it and wait for someone with an army to come and rescue her (Robb in season 2 and Stannis here).

    So exactly what character development did she achieve in between?

    ReplyDelete
  68. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 10:12

    And then done what?

    Killed him? Would the knights Littlefinger chose to accompany them supported her if she killed Littlefinger? If they did and she somehow managed to make it back to the Vale would the Vale lords support her as much as they seemed to before when Littlefinger held the reins?

    There was a reason Littlefinger did not tell her he planned to marry her to Ramsay when they were at the Eyrie. She had suport there. On the road she is basically all alone.

    I'm not sure she would be in a great place if she killed Littlefinger. She may have avoided marrying Ramsay Bolton, but who knows where she would be or what she would have to do to survive there.

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  69. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 10:19

    One can have character growth and still remain in the same situation. The two are not mutually exclusive.


    She was played by Litlefinger. He placed her in a very bad situation and left her no choice. I get the anger, but this was not what she had bargained for. She needs time... as does the arc... As do I. I need to see where it all goes.


    We are not going to get anywhere on this topic tonight..or maybe ever. I think that she can have grown and still be in a bad place or in a different bad place. You do not. Agree to disagree. I think it's the best we can do...

    ReplyDelete
  70. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 10:46

    Not if the character growth is supposed to enable the character to anticipate and avoid that bad situation. If the character finds herself in a bad situation and suffers from it, then she should atleast take something away from it. But if she finds herself in the same situation for the same reasons and reacts the same way, then she has learned nothing form her past trauma - therefore, no growth.

    ReplyDelete
  71. TadloS18 May 2015 at 11:11

    For fuck's sake its just some fictional character got raped and everyone is bitching. Grow the fuck up.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Elvoyce Hooper18 May 2015 at 11:12

    As Arya went continue her "wax on, wax off'" training it appears that she graduated to the next stage when she show mercy to the girl in pain and feed her poison. In a previous scene she had refused to admit her true feeling for a protector who was mortally wounded yet she refused his request to end his painful and dying situation.

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  73. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 11:38

    What could she realistically have on the road done while isolated from any of her possible supporters in The Vale? The marriage to Ramsay Bolton was all but unavoidable despite how you want to frame it. She got played.


    Littlefinger outmaneuvered her. I do not see that as a big failing on her part. Most people in the realms have been played by Littlefinger. The man is a master manipulator. He did not tell Sansa his plans until it was too late for her to do anything.




    She has had little choice in what happens to her up to this point in the season. From this point on will show whether or not she has grown. This part of her arc has just begun and it is too early to judge her IMO. Once the arc ends I could be in the same place you are now thinking she has not learned her lesson, but not yet. Like I said above. We will not agree on this. I'm done.

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  74. Tekka18 May 2015 at 13:27

    Did I just watch a wedding without anyone dying? Been a while since we had that on GoT.

    Also all the fanboys who where waiting for a Sansa sex scene must be pretty disappointed lol.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Grant18 May 2015 at 13:51

    Wow. 37% awesome 30% talk about a divided opinion lol. I went with a resonable good vote. Not the best episode but certainly not awful by any standard. As for anyone saying that nothing has happened this season, MORONS! Alot has happened if you u had the attention span to take it in. Honestly some people these days, i call it the michael bay effect. They just want instant gratification and dumb noisy action scenes every 5 minutes or their bored. Nobody appreciates good dialogue and story anymore. Sad.

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  76. Grant18 May 2015 at 13:57

    Not exactly a change considering sansa story in the show is now ahead of the books. For all we know this is exactly what martin has written in the next book for sansa arc. Actually i would say there is a very good chance considering martin is an executive producer on the show. Its only a change if they replace the book plot with something else entirely. They reached the end of her book arc last season now its all new, very good chance it wont be that far off what happens in the next book.

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  77. DarthLocke418 May 2015 at 15:23

    Ya exactly. Even the Dorne stuff we have seen so far I think would of been better if it was compressed into two episodes instead of 3 or 4. It's such a neat part of the series and it feels a bit like a side show that their just trying to get out of the way.

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  78. Tom18 May 2015 at 15:40

    Six episodes and barely anything has happened. How many more times do we need to see it? Sansa is persecuted; Ramsay is sadistic; Theon is
    impotent (literally). Got it. So, enough already. There seems to be a belief among writers of scripted dramas that
    viewers will continue to tune in week after week while they tediously
    construct their story lines. However, in most cases, the juice ultimately isn't worth the squeeze. Game of Thrones is looking like one of the prime examples of a series I could fast forward through without missing much. One more episode like yesterday evening's and it will be adios to Westeros.

    ReplyDelete
  79. matt jobb18 May 2015 at 15:53

    so are the white walkers still walking south? if so, they really take their time. I really dont know what this show is all about...dozens of characters, most of them useless and not needed, nobody would noticed if they vanished. So many sub-plots, I dont even know if this show have one big central plot.
    So many sloooow scenes, like those with washing corpses...cut their nails, cut their hair, wash their butts...and then some walking in the dark. Lest be honest, this show (and books) are getting worst and worst.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 16:45

    By "this" do you mean marrying Ramsey or getting raped? Because even if Martin writes a Sansa rape scene, it still won't undo her character development because book!Sansa is actually playing the game.

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  81. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 17:02

    "She got played by a master manipulator who isolated her from all her supporters and left her no choice at all" - still sounds like Season 2.



    Last season, Sansa kept saying that she didn't trust Littlefinger, but their interests wee simply aligned. But if she didn't trust him she shouldn't have been so gullible.



    When it became clear that he was isolating her from her supporters, by taking her back to "Eyrie", she could've accepted Brienne into her service.



    She could've tested Littlefinger's words about turning back and asked to go back at Moat Cailin. Even if he doesn't take her back, atleast she wouldn't have any illusions about him.



    And even if she completely trusted him and got completely played, she'd still have realized the trouble she was in long before now - that she was once more alone, undefended and surrounded by enemies - and taken the first chance to get out of there by lighting that candle.



    Sansa's growth is about making choices where she had none before - here she was handed quite a few of them and refused to take them.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 18:00

    And in the books it happens to a side character who isn't even in the game - so you kind of expect her to be screwed over from the beginning.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Grant18 May 2015 at 18:01

    By 'this' i mean sansas entire story this season. As i said they passed the books with regard to sansa last season everything now is new material and as such cant be accused of deviating from a book that hasnt even be published. In terms of sansa playing the game or not i see no reason to suggest she isnt. Yeah she got attacked by ramsey something she probably didnt foresee coming doesnt mean she isnt still plotting in some way shape or form. I will reserve judgement on that untill the season has played out and we see were the winterfell story in general ends up. Im predicting ramsey dead by season end. And please dont tell me your one of those who expects the same kind of character development in a 10 episode series that they get in a 900+ plus page book. The tv show has no choice but to condense and be smaller than the books. Otherwise it would be endless just like the books sometimes

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  84. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 18:44

    Hmmm...
    I can't speak for others, but I almost always prefer the small moments to the big action scenes. I love the exposition scenes... even the very heavy exposition scenes, and I hate Michael Bay movies! XD


    That said, I think this season has felt slow. Maybe it's not so much that nothing has happened (which is inaccurate of course), but that things have felt rather underwhelming or downright flat at times.

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  85. Grant18 May 2015 at 18:59

    My thoughts exactly. The dialogue is what i have always loved the most about game of thrones, not all the battled and dragons etc, as enjoyable as they are. Every good story needs exposition, scenes for great character actors to play off each other. I too hate everything michael bay related lol, why i refer to this trend of people wanting all action all the time as the michael bay effect lol.
    I happen to think alot has happened storywise this season and it feels to me like it is suitable building to the big season defining events. Of course i may be wrong and ill be greatly disappointed if there is no pay off by the seasons end.

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  86. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 19:03

    Oh I don't think you will be wrong! XD

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  87. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 20:07

    By 'this' i mean sansas entire story this season. As i said they passed
    the books with regard to sansa last season everything now is new
    material and as such cant be accused of deviating from a book that hasnt
    even be published.

    Not true. Sansa's story deviated after Lysa's death. There was quite a bit in the books - Sansa learning from Baelish about manipulating the Lords of Vale, his plan to remove Robyn to make way for a worthier heir, his plan to marry Sansa to that heir and reveal her identity at the wedding and unite Vale and the North - all this was in the books before and was adapted out.

    Yeah she got attacked by ramsey something she probably didnt foresee coming doesnt mean she isnt still plotting in some way shape or form.

    She didn't foresee it coming? That, right there, is the biggest sign that she isn't playing the game and is still just a victim. Even if his disturbing personality wasn't a clear sign, what he did to Theon should've made it clear to her what kind of a man he was.

    And what exactly is she "plotting"? I don't see her making any moves on Ramsey to bring him to her side. I don't see her trying to find any allies. I don't see her trying to suss out anyone's weaknesses or vulnerabilities. Things are being handed to her on a silver platter - a way to escape (candle in the tower), allies to help her (the northerners and Brienne), a safe place to go (Stannis), a jealous ex to use against Ramsey, a paranoid fiance to use against Roose and the knowledge that her name is once again a powerful card to play - she uses none of it. Instead, she just sits around waiting for a guy with an army to come rescue her.

    And please dont tell me your one of those who expects the same kind of character development in a 10 episode series that they get in a 900+ plus page book.


    I expect them to keep the character development given.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 20:13

    White Walkers won't come before winter and the long night and we are not there yet. Even if they do try to go south, they can't simply cross the Wall.

    ReplyDelete
  89. NiceGuyVan18 May 2015 at 20:32

    I had to do it I had to vote Awful for how this episode made me feel. This change was not for the good, damn good acting but nope... There better be a omega gratifying moment at the end of this...

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  90. Jim 10818 May 2015 at 20:33

    It kind of feels like this season has a lot more "personal" storylines. It's not really about big moves and story archs; the plot points this season are about Arya finding herself, Cersei plotting revenge against the Tyrells, Tyrion is just "there" at the moment along with Jorah, neither of them having an impact on the overall story, Jaime/Bronn are doing something that any nameless character could do... I don't even know why Obara Sand is still a part of the show at this point. It's not that it's not any fun - it's just an odd transition, watching these people do their thing with no real ''war'' going on.


    Funny thing is, this season is the first time that I'm actually looking forward to Jon's scenes. I think that's about to change with Stannis gone, and Jon (of course) also going on a personal mission. It seems like the biggest story changes are in the North this year, with Sansa marrying the Boltons and Stannis planning to attack them. I just wish it would all move a bit faster, because I've gotten used to being shocked by this show every single week.

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  91. DarqueMode18 May 2015 at 20:48

    After watching the episode again the episode may have been a little better than I thought the first time, but some parts were worse on second viewing. No, not the final scene with Sansa - The Sand Snakes fight!

    I think it will go down as one of the worst fights of the series.
    There were some fun moments and moves, but the editing was choppy and it all felt like it was done in slow-motion. You could tell it was choreographed and that is never a good thing.

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  92. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 21:04

    The armies are moving only in the Lands of Always Winter.

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  93. Grant18 May 2015 at 22:12

    The way i see it the fact that she is in winterfell and now married to the heir to the north, just as baelish wanted, that alone is furthering his plan. Weither she has intentions of her own remains to be seen. The show isnt ending next week or even next season. There is plenty of time for her to play a more active part in things. And if you continue to compare the shows to the books at this point you will give yourself a headache and never be able to enjoy the show for what it is.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Grant18 May 2015 at 22:19

    George Martin himself has an interesting viewpoint on sansas story and the differences between show and books in general. Taken from an interview on vulture
    "Author George R.R. Martin also weighed in on Sansa's new plot on his LiveJournal, defending the changes as a necessary factor in adaptation. "There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one," Martin wrote. "And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes." Though he says that "there has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material," he assures fans the books and the show are just telling two different versions of the same story: "Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose ... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place." 

    ReplyDelete
  95. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 22:27

    I don't care about *his* plans, nor do I care about following the books faithfully. The only reason I brought up the books here was to demonstrate how her character development sticks in the books and how it is reversed here. Her whole character arc was about gaining her own agency and stop being a victim - they took that from her in this episode. It doesn't matter if they give it back once again at some later date. It'd be like Danaerys going back to being a scared, shy princess or Arya throwing up after killing someone - it takes the character back to who they used to be and that would leave a bad taste even if you correct it the very next episode.

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  96. Grant18 May 2015 at 22:39

    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I dont believe this one thing destroys the character from here on out. If anything seeing sansa overcome this and get revenge on the boltons in the coming episodes, if that is indeed what happens, will make character stronger in my eyes. You disagree i understand and respect that.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 22:53

    Get the "disagreement" past right. I'm not saying that this one thing destroys the character. Sansa already had a lot to overcome and plenty to avenge. She was already supposed to be on that road. She was supposed to stop being a bystander to tragedy, stop being a victim, take her fate in her own hands - all those wonderful speeches Baelish has been giving her - and for a time she it looked like she had started doing just that. But now - as it turns out - she didn't do any of that. She became a victim once again and left her fate in someone else's hands. it doesn't matter if she becomes stronger because of it in the future, she is supposed to be strong enough to prevent this from happening right now.

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  98. Grant18 May 2015 at 23:15

    I understand your point of view. The writers certainly make a big deal last season of putting her on this path to becoming a stronger and more resilient person who takes care of herself and 'plays the game' as you put it. And now this is a major set back that at least for now puts her back to square one and makes her the victim again. I guess im just not annoyed about it as you seem to be. As long as there is a good payoff and sansa gets her retribution i will be satisfied.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Martin Anders18 May 2015 at 23:58

    Since they seem determined to give her Jeyne's story, that's where I see it going. She'll escape, find Stannis, who will use her as a pawn as well and arrange her marriage to another loyal lord (does the Onion Knight have any surviving sons?). She'll get her retribution when Stannis gives it to her, but she won't get it for herself.

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  100. DarthLocke419 May 2015 at 00:19

    True, but you still don't know if Sansa will turn around and kick butt or not. or get killed and come back with a rapid vengence!!!! I think our society thinks that somehow not showing rape changes it's existence, where I think that only feeds into that feminist argument that she's a victim, where I think it would be better to say that just because someone got raped, doesn't mean they are weak or can't come back stronger from it! Plus Theon basically got rapped too. He is completely emasculated and no one wants to take about that, because he was less innocent than Sansa was.

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  101. Martin Anders19 May 2015 at 00:38

    You are missing the point - its not the fact that Sansa got raped, its the fact that she should have known that it was coming and did nothing to avert or mitigate it that makes her weak or a victim. Its about a character who's journey is about "stop being a bystander to tragedy and take your fate in your hands" - and she goes right back to being a bystander.

    After last season, I was expecting to see how much Sansa had grown as a character, how far she had come from the helpless little girl waiting to be rescued while stoically suffering a psychopath. I expected her to see that Ramsay was a psychopath and that he'd rape her as soon as they are married and that she was surrounded by enemies and the no one would rush to rescue her and that Baelish only wants to use her as a pawn. I expected her to see all this and turn it to her advantage - stall the wedding while she looks for more allies, use her option to escape, use her enemies' obvious insecurities to turn them against one another, use her charms on Ramsey - anything really to show that atleast she is trying not to be victimized again.

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  102. DarthLocke419 May 2015 at 01:28

    100% My take too!

    ReplyDelete
  103. Martin Anders19 May 2015 at 06:16

    "Except that fate may not be in anyone's hands in this series."

    You don't need any magical reality changing powers. What you need is to ascertain the choices available to you and make one. Abdication of choice is the hallmark of victimhood.

    "In Sansa's defense, she may think that she doesn't really have a choice"

    She did have a choice. She had many choices, in fact and all of them improve her chances of survival. And at this point, she is supposed to be smart enough to see them and brave enough to seize them.

    "that this is her best chance of survival (it's not like she had any
    combat skills or that we have seen Petyr actually groom her for better
    manipulation), and/or may also be in shock, because what are the chances
    that you would get to experience someone like this twice or that the
    man that seems to adore her (Petyr) would put her in this position (her
    reaction to Breinne was someone who thought more of herself than she
    should-because she thinks that Petyr's interest in her makes her
    "special"--that he loves her!--and honestly, she has made it mostly
    unscathed until now and lots of other characters have not and also
    continuously get victimized! It's just Sansa's story is taking longer to
    turn over."

    Is this how you see Sansa? Because, in that case, forget Season 2, this means that Sansa is still the naive stupid girl from Season 1. "Joffrey and Queen Cersei adore me. They are interested in me because I'm special and ladylike - not common like Arya. My prince loves me and he'd never put me in a position where harm could come to me and neither would Queen Cersei. He'll even show mercy to my father if I ask him to because that's how much he loves me."

    This is how Sansa used to be - way back in season 1. If you think that's how Sansa is now - only with Petyr instead of the Lannisters - then she learned nothing from the years of torment. In that case, I don't see her doing anything in the future either - she'll stay quiet and keep getting raped until someone comes along and saves her or gets her vengeance for her. A naive girl like that could never take on the role of Lady Stoneheart.

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  104. Cecilia Arenas19 May 2015 at 07:12

    It might be so tiring seeing Sansa suffer more than a soup opera character but I think the writers want to show us the making of the new Cersei, the cold, heartless bitch that Sansa would become soon.

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  105. Cecilia Arenas19 May 2015 at 07:56

    Ok, but how come Sam got the Wall ages ago?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Martin Anders19 May 2015 at 09:01

    The Whitewalkers aren't racing to the Wall with anyone, they are just just collecting dead soldiers for their armies right now. And for now, they can only do that North of the Wall and at night.

    ReplyDelete
  107. kavany19 May 2015 at 14:36

    Awesome episode. Lot of theories, names, plots, plans, schemes. Theon… WOW

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  108. DarthLocke419 May 2015 at 15:34

    You're right you don't need that and she may do something anti-magic, but it wouldn't be as good or in line in the source material IMO, but that is what epic fantasies genres do, because magical aspects to the reality are metaphors and/or muddy the pond on microcosmicism issues by suggesting to the audience, maybe there are things bigger than us, including the fact we all effect each other with every decision we make!


    Look IMO if you are going to try to be more honest than not honest, than you are going to show a spectrum of characters and ideas in which those ideas are contested by the juxtapositions they have with other characters and ideas never proving a singular truth behind an idea until the end of the series (ie: are love and duty at odds? Jon and Y'gritte chose duty over love, Ameon chose love over duty before coming to the wall, and Samwell proved, much like Luke Skywalker I might add, that Love can make you stronger in duty and be hand in hand).


    Sansa is allowed to victimized continuously to show how that can happen, which builds rage to her plight, but I would wait to see her final outcome before I cry wolf!
    You have the right to not watch it, if you don't like it.

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  109. Sal Silvio20 May 2015 at 03:21

    What character development did they stray from? Sansa has been a victim the entire series. Her character has not grown at all.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Sal Silvio20 May 2015 at 03:24

    Nobody died at Tommen's wedding 3 episodes ago

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  111. Ron20 May 2015 at 03:57

    GoT shows this kinds of escenes, nudes and gore and a lot more, but this one in particular was hard, the acting was excellent and that's what made us feel that everything was wrong.
    I havent read the books and i read they had gone a different path fopr Sansa, i just hope this is teh way for her to become something more. She has suffered enough and this one is add to the list. I hope Sansa becomes (and i hate to say this) a "good" version of Cercei, it's her time, give her more than just suffering writters or there is still the little finger issue that now she is not a virgin he wil take her and lord knows what he will do juts to add a little more suffering for Sansa.
    Loras trail was excellent too. Cercei is just getting what she wants and oh boy i wait for the day when her sins are exposed, now that the High Sparrow said that no matter if you are King or Queen, you still gonna have to pay the price. Lady Olenna, go tell everything.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 04:52

    She wasn't a victim last season in front of the Vale Lords.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Sal Silvio20 May 2015 at 05:24

    No, she wasn't a victim last season. She was just forced to marry Tyrion, framed for Joffrey's murder, and manipulated by Littlefinger, which lead to her latest predicament.

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  114. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 07:44

    You went off in a completely irrelevant tangent here - magical transformations have nothing to do with it. I don't want Sansa to die and come back as a vengeful zombie. All the blather about magic and its influence is meaningless here.



    When I talk about Sansa becoming Lady Stoneheart, I'm simply talking about I'm simply talking about her taking on certain aspets of her personality - specifically, being ruthless and merciless. A good example would be getting Walda Frey alone and having one of her northern supporters slit her throat. The Sansa we saw last season should be capable of that kind of cold ruthlessness by now - the Sansa we've seen for the last two episodes isn't.



    You talk about Sansa being victimized continuously - but that's not what her story is about at all. In the books, its about using whatever little agency you have to protect yourself the bet you can. This aspect of her storyline didn't come across very well in the show - on the show, she was just a victim who didn't have any choice most of the time and wasn't brave enough to make one when she did. But that changed in season 4 when she manipulated both the Lords of Vale and put Littlefinger in a spot. She was finally making use of her agency to protect herself. That was a major step forward for her character - using her agency to her advantage.



    And this episode was a major step backward. She has more agency now than she did back in KL and yet she did nothing to protect herself. And unless we see a Leverage-style flashback showing that Sansa was just pretending to be raped in order to turn Theon to her side - this will remain a step backward for her character. Being a player in the future wouldn't change the regression that happened here.

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  115. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 08:35

    I didn't think I left room for misinterpretation - when I talk about Sansa from last year, I'm specifically talking about Sansa from episode 8 onwards.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Sal Silvio20 May 2015 at 12:57

    I knew what you meant, but seriously? She wasn't in the last 2 episodes, so all of her character growth was her lying to the Lords of the Vale to save Littlefinger in a small portion of episode 8? Not much growth there.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 13:34

    Sansa had been learning a lot. She had been learning since season 2, but her education truly sped up after Baelish got her out. Episode 8 was just the culmination of all she had learned - a kind of final exam which she passed with flying colors.

    In the books, Sansa is a pov character, so we get to see a lot of what goes on in her head. We get to see how she slowly grows more observant and she starts figuring out how to use what little tools she has. We didn't get to see all that in the series - especially since most of the time she was simply saying what was expected of her. And since she never gets the chance to put her skills to use on the show, we have difficulty figuring out how much her character has grown.

    That changed in season 4 after Baelish got her out - we saw her make some astute observations with Baelish and we saw her quick thinking when Lysa showed her crazy side. But her best moment was in episode 8 where she revealed her identity to the Vale lords without any prompting from anyone else. That is beyond anything her book counterpart has done. In the books, while she is figuring out different plots and doing some manipulating, she still takes all her cues from Baelish. While book Sansa is learning how to play the game, the show Sansa has already started playing it - atleast, that's what that episode indicated. The statement there was "Yes, Sansa has been growing as a character for these past season - we just didn't have an opportunity to show it yet".

    Unfortunately, neither book Sansa nor show Sansa should be in a position like being raped by Ramsay. To see that, consider the person it did happen to in the books - Jeyne Poole. Now that is a person who has been truly powerless - she doesn't have a famous name to protect her, she was sent North pretending to be Arya Stark and she has no choice in the matter of marriage. Unlike Sansa, she can't even try to leverage her name because she is not really a Stark and lives in perpetual fear of being found out and killed. Unlike Sansa, she has no avenues of agency at all - so it makes sense that her character would be victimized so easily by Ramsay. The same cannot be said for Sansa.

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  118. Toni20 May 2015 at 13:59

    I'm done with GoT and Outlander for that matter. There are too many great shows out there for me to be pissed off watching either one of these.
    I don't care about any of the writers reasons. I don't care about staying true to a novel. If I want to see that level of degradation, I'll turn on my local news.

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  119. Sal Silvio20 May 2015 at 15:42

    That is where we disagree. I think she was weak and vulnerable the entire time, and unable to get herself out of the situation. She thought she had Baelish wrapped around her finger, but it was the other way around. She is easily manipulated. She has the desire to play the game, but she is too innocent to be a real player. This is going to harden her. This is where her game will start. She has been a character in turmoil since the beginning. Standing up for herself once, and making her own decision, does not make good character growth. Yes, we don't have the POV insight of her growth from the books, but this isn't the books, and the books are not canon to the show. Because you have read the books, you cannot pretend the thoughts you read about are the same as the thoughts of the TV show character. It is 2 separate mediums, and should be treated as so.

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  120. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 16:14

    Read my post again and ignore all mentions of book Sansa - you'll find my argument still stands.



    You talk about Sansa being weak and vulnerable, easily manipulated and too innocent for the game - but that's simply not true of the Sansa we saw in season 4. She has been making some pretty astute observations about Petyr and others throughout season 4, which means she understands the game much better than you give her credit for. As far as I can see, she harbors no illusions about having any sort of control over Baelish - she simply believes him to be her best bet because she knows that he has an unhealthy interest in her. As for weakness - she has learned how to use her tears and her courtesy as weapons and she was getting better at using them.


    However, if she is still as weak and vulnerable as you say - even after everything she has been through - then one more traumatic event won't suddenly harden her or turn her into a player.

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  121. DarthLocke420 May 2015 at 16:36

    In your opinion they don't, but I disagree as someone who looks at the structure of a story and kinds of stories that get made. There is this strange idea in our culture lately, that fans think they have the right to dictate how characters and stories should be represented with a disregard for waiting to actually see the result of something to see just how bad or how unjust something may or may not really be to THEM. People want to make everything about their specific cause, not ever realizing that their causes may not be in fact what the author/authors were getting at. I don't join big fandoms for this very reason, because I see how people don't just politely discuss there likes and disikes of something, but they go on tyraids to try and change culture: the freedom of expression, which is so ironic, when you consider how much time people blog about all the things they hate. Rape scenes are horrible, but IMO, in something like GOT/ASOFAI, it is there, because it is meant to be horrific. It is meant to shock. It is meant to frustrate and disgust. It's not a glorification of it. Glorification comes from an audience [members] who doesn't know that it is wrong and has a celebratory attitude about things that they shouldn't. But the TV is not to blame for that. It's people not taking the time to teach better standards and explain such things. Especially works of FICTION.


    When I read or watch something, especially something serialized, I understand that it is going to be the ending of these things that will justify the means for me, meaning that an ending to something solidifies a PHILOSOPHY of the writer. So even when a character like Sansa is written in a way where she is contentiously abused, I'm not going to immature and boycott the series just because I don't like it or because it makes me uncomfortable. In fact it is the discomfort that challenges my own understanding of the world and I think that is a good thing. It means I can keep learning, because I haven't put my perception of reality in a neat little perfect box and that I can try to see and feel past myself. Empathy.


    If Sansa would come back as LSH and kills everyone who deserves it, to me that would be some kind of justice served. Sure it would be nice to continue to see her grow intellectually, and I hope she does, but I also don't believe that GOT is all about Sansa's role alone and I understand that she may be written a certain way due to either timing because of where the show is verses where the book five ends, verses where GRRM has planned, and/or because of how she is compared with other characters, such as Arya, being a kind of polar opposite to her sister, which creates a literary technique called IRONY!!!!


    A lot of people were mad when Ned died, because they feel it was unjust, but that is the point. He took a life, chopping off his head, of someone that maybe he shouldn't have in the first episode (deserter of the Night's Watch), putting duty before compassion and his head ends up on a spike because he is more concerned about the duty of truth than protecting his own family. This is also again IRONY and KARMA, because KARMA is a thing in this universe. But the problem lies in people only wanting to look at it in terms of how Sansa (or other woman) and her rape scene was filmed and portrayed and again no one wants to talk about the even bigger rape that Ramsey did to Theon and how completely emasculated he is because of it--to the point where he is so confused about his identity it's not even funny, and again Sansa becoming LSH at the end of this little arc would be a juxtaposition to that transformation too! Theon was a presumptuous jerk, who just wanted to prove himself to his father, but argumentively you could say that Sansa was a pretty dumbbell who just wanted to get married to handsome prince and both characters were tricked and have yet to get ahead. To me that is also interesting writing.

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  122. DarthLocke420 May 2015 at 17:58

    But what if she is a character that is NOT meant not to be "developed" or that her development (or transformation into someone/something else) is a complete and utter tragedy, because that IS what she "represents", because not all people in life happily progress, and that her story is just meant as a stepping stone for someone else's and George RR Martin wants viewers to consider that reality??? You are judging something based on what you have seen, with no disregard for what you have not yet seen! That is relevant, because her story isn't over yet!


    IE: Mad Men just ended SPOILER WARNING with an Ayn Rand-esque belief on cynical idealism. Don Draper will never be moved to change who he is. Weiner's logline is that the more things change, the more they stay the same...
    End Spoiler

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  123. AliAriAnn20 May 2015 at 18:07

    Just "ok", because the trial scene was ridiculous. Mr Nobody says that the queen is a liar and that's enough to drag her away?

    Please.

    Oh, and imho the vipers were ridiculous as well.



    I liked the rest, even the rape scene, because I was expecting no less from Ramsey.


    I hope that Sansa will find a way to make him suffer.

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  124. laura334120 May 2015 at 21:33

    Agreed!

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  125. Martin Anders20 May 2015 at 23:55

    what if she is a character that is NOT meant to be "developed" or that
    her development (or transformation into someone/something else) is a
    complete and utter tragedy, because that IS what she "represents",
    because not all people in life happily progress, and that her story is
    just meant as a stepping stone for someone else's and George RR Martin
    wants viewers to consider that reality???

    What part of this being character regression don't you get? They already gave her the character development. If she is simply supposed to be a stepping stone (like Jeyne Poole) or if she is supposed to be a character who develops after tragedy - then they shouldn't have given her any contrary character development in Season 4. But they did.

    You are judging something based on what you have seen, with no disregard
    for what you have not yet seen! That is relevant, because her story
    and/or GOT's story isn't over yet and things can completely turn around!

    Sansa had already turned around as a character. She went from being a helpless victim to confident and manipulative. This episode turned her around backwards and made her a helpless victim once again. Even if they turn her around once again and make her manipulative, this part will still remain a piece of bad writing.

    IMO you are not considering anything anyone else's said because you have
    ALREADY decided that it is "sloppy" and no other possibilities can
    change your good opinion.

    Any possibility that shows that Sansa's development was not undone in this episode can change my mind. And no, that doesn't include giving her back her development in some future episode.

    And you're the one that started these conversations, because your the
    one who has the problem with the way Sansa has been written/presented,
    because she is not developed enough for you.

    No, my problem is that Sansa was developed more than enough for me, but then the writers undid all her development.

    Sansa snubbed Brienne and did some great turn over in the Vale, but
    clearly her thought to be superior was undeserved or undercut, because
    she had absolutely no idea what Petyr was planning, and possibly hoping
    that Petyr was doing this all for her and/or her family, now she has to
    question that thought (her confidence is new found--so I think it's
    natural to go back to being a bit scared when your perception of truth
    keeps changing) and it's not as though she hasn't been a bit vocal
    towards the Bolton's or Miranda, but just because she learned something
    still doesn't mean she is PREPARED to deal with Ramsey Snow (or that
    letting him rape her might be in her best interest), especially since it
    appears Petyr didn't know anything about him, or lied to Sansa about it
    so she would go threw with it...

    Sansa may not have known what Petyr wsa planning, but that doesn't mean she trusted him. She seems to have no illusions about Petyr wanting power and using her to get it. As for Ramsay, she had more than enough time to see what he was like and prepare herself for him. That's the whole point of the character development she was already given - trying not to get thrown into an unmanageable situation which would turn out to be very bad for her.

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