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Supernatural - Episode 10.03 - Soul Survivor - Sneak Peek

17 Oct 2014

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90 comments:

  1. klutzy_girl17 October 2014 at 18:12

    Ow. I am loving Demon Dean and this storyline is fun but that was painful.

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  2. ParadiseHeat17 October 2014 at 18:16

    and when Sam goes back for another round Dean will have escaped the bindings and on the hunt for Sam so he can kill him.


    Dean still loves the sound of his own voice


    I'm glad Jared actually had a few lines and not just standing around making faces


    Kinda feel they spoiled too much before the episode in regards to the partial curing of demon Dean though

    ReplyDelete
  3. maloose17 October 2014 at 19:21

    I kinda like to see Dean throw Sam's words "you say that like it's a cure-all" to him when he talks about being brothers and family, or somehow reminds him how he didn't have such appreciation for family only a few months ago. Seems it was painful for the writers too, there's no reminder from those heartbreaking words while they were a forcing factor in S9, not in the roar so fars and not in the dialogues.

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  4. sharonally17 October 2014 at 19:33

    Dean shoved a angel in his brother for his own reasons then lied , then had him tortured. If Sam was suppose to show appreciation after that 'for family' then it is why I have issues with both show and fandom. Dean will get to spit at Sam again like he has in the past and it is excused because it was either the Spectre or Dean was demon . Sam did not just get up one morning and say some mean things to Dean there was provocation and a world of hurt , if this fandom can see that in Dean then there has never been a excuse not to see it in Sam.

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  5. Bananadrama17 October 2014 at 19:40

    Holy crap! Great acting, Jensen!

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  6. MythAl17 October 2014 at 19:44

    Agreed. This double standard really bothers me too.

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  7. fazziemodo17 October 2014 at 19:46

    The angel appeared in front of Sam in the form of Dean and Sam's first reaction was to say 'Yes' when he could have said 'I've had enough, I'm ready to die.'


    That is an example of Sam 'not manning up' as Demon Dean would put it. Dean may not have been right in his actions but Sam has to look at why when the going gets really tough, his balls shrink and he jumps behind Dean's apron, because that is really what he did there. He says he was ready to die, Dean appears and says there is a plan doesn't say what it is and suddenly Sam is willing to give it a shot to live? Sam relegated his living or dying onto Dean because if he lived great, if he died well Dean came up with the plan.


    Now as much as you have a point that Sam may have provocation in what he says mean things, but we have been waiting for Dean's right to reply without a filter with regard to Sam's words and actions for a long time. Also it says a lot that it takes getting taken over by a spectre, psiren or Demon for Dean to actually voice them.


    Also I am interested in seeing in how they will write Sam's response to whatever Demon Dean says. Will we get some sort of taking the words to heart but understanding that the delivery of them was under duress or are we going to get a hissy fit a la the spectre possession when he knew Dean wasn't in control and still he brought up Benny instead of actually helping his brother. Because really how would have the situation of the spectre turned out if Garth hadn't been there. Sam wasn't under the influence of anything but it turned into who had the right to hold the biggest grudge.

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  8. maloose17 October 2014 at 19:52

    I can always count on you to show up and defend Sam, lol.
    Your logic is too biased, I don't think there's any way for us to agree on this. But this is my idea, the brothers have spited at each other, Sam much more, but there was never a word about writing off their brotherhood in their right minds. I admit what was said in S9 was more a plot-device for Dean's journey to the dark side, but it was new and it was hurtful. This show IS about family. Do you agree with S9 Sam, their brotherhood was unworthy?!!

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  9. ParadiseHeat17 October 2014 at 20:04

    Thats Dean fans for you

    ReplyDelete
  10. percysowner17 October 2014 at 20:08

    Well considering Dean has never, ever given Sam one minutes credit for being under "duress" I don't think Sam has to give him any. As for not having been able to reply without a filter, I hate to think how "That means you're a monster", "If I didn't know you I would hunt you" and "I don't even know if he was ever my brother". You could also compare "At least he dies human" to Sam's "I don't care what you did, you're still my brother". Dean has been cruel to Sam over the course of the years. If he was using a filter, then I hate to think what cruelty he was actually thinking.

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  11. fazziemodo17 October 2014 at 20:17

    And the times Sam has made Dean feel small, idiotic, unwanted and told him he is less than himself?


    Both brothers have taken pot shots at each other, but when we have had Sam really go into it, such as the purge, the drop or Sam will walk in season 8, we have seen Dean hold back on how those words personally affect him.


    There is a reason why Dean thinks he is less and is poison and he has to let it out, just like Sam got to let out his feelings of not being as good as everyone else in season 8. Dean played into the way Sam felt then and Sam plays into why Dean is angry and has so much self loathing and as I said it take a lot to get those feelings out of Dean, so much so he has to be possessed, changed or infected by something.

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  12. Shannon17 October 2014 at 20:24

    Just a few clarifications:

    1. Dean did not shove an angel in his brother. He gave an angel permission to try to get Sam to say yes. He is part of the conspiracy so yes, he should take some of the blame. However, any angel could've done the same thing without Dean's consent.

    2. Saying Dean "shoved an angel in his brother for his own reasons" makes it sound like he had nefarious intentions. He gave an angel permission to try to save his brother (albeit through questionable means).

    3. Dean lied because Gadreel was threatening to leave Sam if Dean told him what was happening, which as far as Dean knew would result in Sam dying. Lying is always problematic and Dean should have told the truth, but threats and blackmail are enough to make most people keep a secret.

    4. Again, saying that Dean "had him tortured" makes it sound like Dean was doing it to be evil. Dean had Gadreel tortured, with Sam completely unaware, while trying to get Gadreel out.

    5. Gadreel killing Kevin was entirely Gadreel's decision. Kevin did not die so Sam could live and it was not something that Dean allowed. Gadreel betrayed Dean by killing Kevin and staying in Sam longer than needed and Dean still took the blame for Kevin's death.

    6. Sam's initial anger was understandable. However, he had time between finding out that he had been possessed and when he gave his needlessly cruel speeches. They were not given in anger. He was cold, calm, and deliberately cruel. Expecting Sam to be grateful is a stretch, but considering he was restored to full health with no real side effects, he managed to forgive Gadreel, Metatron would've sent someone to kill Kevin anyway, and Sam knew there was something wrong with Dean, Sam was not justified in saying what he did.

    7. Generally, it takes Dean being supernaturally afflicted (demon, spectre, siren) to say anything truly cruel to Sam. Sam, on the other hand, has no problem saying cruel things to Dean "when provoked" (or just dissatisfied with Dean in some way). That is why this fandom has a problem with it. What Sam said in Asylum isn't held against him by most people because he wasn't in control. When he is in control, yes, he gets the blame if he goes too far. The same standard applies to Dean, but he doesn't usually say anything that goes too far absent a supernatural affliction.

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  13. Rose17 October 2014 at 21:13

    Completely agree with you, but some Dean fans can't see him in the wrong side at all.
    When Dean was hurt because of Ruby and the demon blood in S4, he called Sam a monster and didn't care how this can be the final break point between Sam and his humanity.
    But when Sam was hurt and just lashed his hurt out, it's a disaster and unforgivable act, although Sam said he lied!

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  14. Rose17 October 2014 at 21:33

    For me, what I blame Dean for more than the possession itself is what happened after they got rid of Gadreel.
    Sam just wake up with nails in his head, Sam was still confused of the idea of being possessed and in the dark for months, and he wasn't fully cured.
    Sam needed Dean the most in this time, and Sam's reaction wasn't strong in this point, actually he looked shocked and confused but not as much angry.
    But what Dean did? instead of staying a little longer with his brother supporting him, trying to explain himself, having heart to heart talk, Dean just left, he ignored Sam's situation and feelings and made it all about himself, he went to Sam and gave him speech about being a poison and he will leave and hunt Gadreel alone!
    I actually think that what raised Sam's anger, and he is completely right to feel angry because of that.

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  15. Michele Klinger17 October 2014 at 21:54

    All I can say is HOLY CRAP THAT WAS INTENSE! I am so excited for this episode. You know Dean is so far gone if he actually is saying all those things, but Sam will do whatever it takes to save him

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  16. ivan17 October 2014 at 23:10

    god this dean's a son of a bitch, but amazing portrayal by jensen ackles

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  17. Tawrens17 October 2014 at 23:17

    Dean didn't shove anything anywhere. Rewatch the ep. Gadreel says he can heal Sam from within better and Dean tells him he could try but he doesn't believe Sam will except the offer. Dean felt Gadreel was wasting his time trying and was no doubt surprised when Sam accepted the offer. As the canon goes an angel Cannot possess a host unless the host agrees to it. Since Gadreel possessed Sam Sam agreed. Not Dean, not Gadreel, not the 4th demon on the next corner but in fact the host Sam said yes to his possession and after Kevin Sam as usual instead of dealing with it passed the buck and made Dean the one responsible so he didn't have to man up and accept what Gadreel did because don't you know Sam's not responsible because *Insert excuse here and blame Dean/John.* And before you scream Dean fan I'm a John fan and tired of Sam heaping abuse on John as well except when he needs him. Demon Dean is right Sam needs to grow up and stop being a 2 year old in a 30 year old body. He had no problems researching/investigating for Jess but with his brother he whines he couldn't look for Dean cause he didn't have Bobby. Really Sam? You had no problems looking for Jess killer so I think finding a missing brother just was in your top 10 priorities.

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  18. Tawrens17 October 2014 at 23:29

    Sam was under duress when? When he was taken hostage and watched his brother enter the room and said nothing. Maybe DMB where the demon told Dean he was worthless and all Sam cared about was why Jess some girl he knew for a couple of years was killed not mom who was murdered trying to save him, dad who was possessed or a brother being told he was worthless while Sam said nothing. How about when Henry died to save him when once again he was taken hostage by Abaddon. Benny who returned to purgatory to pull Sam ass and Bobby's soul when Sam gave up seconds after his ride didn't show when Sam demanded he go solo. Or later after Sam was back due to Benny sacrificing himself for Sam when Sam had made his life hell from day one and all Sam could say was, "I guess he wasn't so bad after all." When Sam whined about Dean killing Amy then agreed Dean did the right thing only to reverse himself when in SC he whined about Dean killing Amy which was the stupidest thing since he was basically urging spectre possessed Dean to just shoot him in the head. Any stress Sam created for himself like the yes I want to die even knowing my brother will try to save me and end up in hell for it. Then causing me whiplash by suddenly deciding to live for no reason let alone one that made sense.

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  19. Tawrens17 October 2014 at 23:40

    Nope that's Sam girls. Sam's not responsible because Dean tricked him into possession when the canon states that definitely can't happen. Dean's a bad guy for kicking Cas out no mention made of Gadreel saying it was him or Cas and if Cas stayed Gadreel would leave which would kill Sam. According to Sam girls Dean is responsible for everything bad that happened to Sam ever. Sam's not responsible for anything due to his being too precious. All the characters but Sam have 1et of fans. Sam has Sam fans who understand Sam screws up but he also has Sam girls who think Sam is god and can do no wrong anyone who suggests it should be tarred and feathered and flamed out of existence by abusive attacks on their character.

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  20. Tawrens17 October 2014 at 23:45

    Dean never called Sam a monster. Dean's voice mail was tweaked and yet automatically assume it was Dean. As for the fight Dean doesn't call Sam a monster. He says "That would make you a monster." to Sam's question which immediately after Sam attacks Dean slamming his into a mirror and then sits on his chest and chokes Dean.

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  21. Ambar Moreno Candelas18 October 2014 at 00:12

    This is fucking AMAZING!!! :D OMG! I can´t wait! BEST SHOW EVER AND BEST ACTORS!! ♥

    ReplyDelete
  22. Ambar Moreno Candelas18 October 2014 at 00:20

    This is fucking AMAZING!!! :D OMG! I can´t wait! BEST SHOW EVER AND BEST ACTORS!! ♥

    ReplyDelete
  23. Ambar Moreno Candelas18 October 2014 at 00:37

    This is AMAZING and GORGEOUS!!! :D OMG! I can´t wait! BEST SHOW EVER AND BEST ACTORS!! ♥

    ReplyDelete
  24. elle j.18 October 2014 at 01:14

    Sometimes there is no coming back from what is said and done. This maybe the case for Dean. He is using his own memories, experiences, and emotions all to attack Sam. Sam's existence isn't what caused Mary's death. Mary condemned Sam when she made the deal with Azazel to save John's life. Dean has made it known before that he considers Sam to be a burden at times. Dean said as much when he took Castiel to the strip club in "Free To Be You And Me".

    Dean showed little understanding or compassion towards Sam when he was addicted to demon blood and fell under Ruby's influence. Dean's feelings of betrayal and anger were stronger than his love for his brother so much so that he told Sam it was time for them to go their separate ways. Like he did many times before and even after, Sam let Dean vent at him before leaving. It is very rare for Sam to stand up to Dean because he tends to take what Dean dishes out for the sake of keeping the peace. After Dean is cured, I wonder if Sam can rise above what Dean has said and done when his soul was twisted into becoming a demon. On the other hand, will Sam treat Dean the way Dean treated him in the beginning season 5. I don't think the later will happen because Sam does try to avoid conflict and confrontation to keep the peace in the family.

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  25. K Smith18 October 2014 at 04:07

    There may be no coming back from what is said and done and that may be the case in regards to what Sam has said and done, especially in Seasons 8 and 9, for Dean. Sam has been allowed to "purge" his thoughts and feelings and hasn't been made to apologize, even when said comments were known lies and said only to be hurtful. I hope the writers take this same tactic with Dean that they've taken with Sam. But, because it's Dean, they will have him apologize to Sam and will never bring up Sam's comments from the various episodes in season 9 again.

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  26. TVTrance18 October 2014 at 04:39

    You are correct. There is no coming back from some things, like when Sam called his brother weak and pathetic, or when he chose a demon over him, or when he decided that he would rather play house with an annoying vet than find out what happened to his brother or when disowned Dean and said he never sacrificed anything for anyone. Yet, Dean has forgiven him over and over again and without Sam ever having to man up up to his own role in Dean's lack of self-esteem and suicidal tendencies. Dean is far too forgiving by far and Sam does not deserve to have him as a brother. The brother Sam deserves is Demon Dean. He has reaped what he has spent his life sowing. I just wish that Demon Dean wasn't going to be over so quickly because we all know that means going back to the usual brotherly dynamic of Dean grovelling for whatever few crumbs of affection Sam decides to throw his way whenever he wants to manipulate Dean into doing what he wants.

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  27. TVTrance18 October 2014 at 04:43

    Dean has also praised Sam to the skies to many people over the course of the series. Something I am still waiting to hear Sam do. The best Sam has ever been able to come up with is "he means well but..."


    Sam also routinely attacks Dean in his most vulnerable places whenever he wants to get his own way. The minute Dean gets even remotely critical, Sam stomps his feet and threatens to leave, knowing Dean's abandonment issues better than anyone. I honestly think that Sam is the worst brother I have ever seen on TV.

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  28. kerinda18 October 2014 at 05:18

    YES! too true this it a Double standard so why take it anymore the Dean girl get what they want or they get pissed off. OH Dean can't be wrong taking away someone right too live and lieing too but that's just Dean Right not caring about what the other person thinks or want's.

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  29. maloose18 October 2014 at 13:06

    Actually according to Js, it was Sam who "wanted some space", but since it was like a married couple breaking up, they changed the dialogue.
    Whatever is was and whatever it turned into, sth is for sure, that Dean leaving Sam then was never an issue.

    Based on what Jared felt, and I take his words over others b/c honestly the writers don't know what they're doing with Sam, Sam said those words not b/c he believed them in the slightest but b/c he wanted to hurt Dean. Now lots of ppl may think it's common among loved ones, but to me it was brutal and completely a one-sided behavior (we never saw Dean punishing Sam just to retaliate). And if there's one thing admirable about their relationship, it's they were NOT like others. (Much worse when he went on and on with ignoring his suffering brother, this, even hurt loved ones don't have the heart to.) So I say it was another disservice to the character Sam after making him such an uncaring brother in S8, but those unforgiving words were said and they must be addressed by the writers, not crazy things like "mom is dead b/c of you"! WTH!

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  30. lala218 October 2014 at 13:57

    Can't we all agree that BOTH brothers have said hurtful things to each other at times?

    I hate the Sam v. Dean crap.

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  31. sdwhiskey18 October 2014 at 14:43

    How are some people not understanding that this is a DEMON talking? It isn't "Dean". The demon is in control of Dean. I see a lot of comments about how cruel and mean DEAN is being to Sam here. What? No. The demon is using Dean's memories to try to be as cruel as possible to Dean's brother. That's what demons do.

    And bringing up Mary and John? Sure, Dean carries those memories but the demon isn't even interpreting Dean's feelings about them accurately. But maybe that's the point, the demon has access to the memories but can't actually connect real emotion to those memories.

    Jensen is doing a fantastic job as Demon Dean. It looks like this will be a great episode.

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  32. sdwhiskey18 October 2014 at 14:50

    Why are you speaking as if "Dean" is actually saying these things? It isn't Dean. It's the demonic part of Dean. Of course Dean doesn't blame Sam for Mary's death. That's the entire point. The demonic part of Dean has access to Dean's memories of why Mary died and it's using those memories to hurt Dean's brother. No, it's not a possession, but it's still a DEMON inside of Dean acting like demons do. It's not just "dark" Dean.

    It's amazing to me that some fans are trying to twist things just so you can blame the real Dean for things that a demon is doing. Well, I guess I shouldn't be that surprised. So many fans reach for any thing to blame Dean.

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  33. sdwhiskey18 October 2014 at 15:27

    It was Sam who left Dean in the beginning of season 5. And in Sam, Interrupted, Dean said that the apocalypse wasn't Sam's fault. Dean blamed only Ruby for Sam's blood addition.

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  34. erin KAT18 October 2014 at 15:47

    The writers and the actors have said it is Dean, just a darker version of him.

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  35. Aline18 October 2014 at 15:49

    Unfortunately, there has been plenty of times since then when Dean has put the Apocalypse squarely on Sams shoulders, and plenty of times he let others blame it solely on Sam and not stand up and say that he himself was equally responsible.

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  36. Aline18 October 2014 at 16:07

    Dean has now chosen an angel, a vampire and demon (twice) over his brother. And the last thing Dean is, is forgiving. If he had forgiven Sam then he wouldn't still be bringing up things that he had supposedly forgiven, even things that Sam wasn't respinsible for (being brought back soulless) and things that Dean himself did. Oh, Dean will say the words but he won't follow through with actions.

    It's telling, the blonde hair per girl Dean slept with in the first episode said much the same thing as Sam did, that Dean doesn't do what he does for them, he does it for himself. It might be time to consider there's a lot of truth in what they said.

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  37. Rose18 October 2014 at 16:26

    So Dean didn't trick Sam?? OH what show I was watching!!
    Dean saw Sam telling death about his desire to make his death final so no deals can bring him back, because he doesn't want anyone to hurt more because of him.
    Dean told Gadreel himself in a direct clear speech that, Sam would never accept the possession even to save his life.
    When Deam finally accepted Gadreel plan, Gadreel told him that Sam would never say Yes to him, but he will say Yes to Dean, and for that Dean allowed Gadreel to pretend to be him and allowed him to access his memories to know what exactly to tell Sam to make him agree.




    So you call that what exactly?? this isn't a trick from Dean? Sam said yes to Dean's plan or said yes to be possessed by an angel used his brother face and memories to trick him?


    Also yes Dean had to kick Cas out because of what Gadreel told him, but wasn't Dean able to help Cas by anyway like giving him some money, or at least be aware where he is?? we saw how Cas was angry because Dean ignored him completely, we saw how Dean didn't know where is Cas till Cas called him.

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  38. Rose18 October 2014 at 16:37

    No you really need to watch the fight scene because this isn't what happened at all.
    Sam didn't touch Dean before he called him a monster.

    The full conversation for you

    Sam: Stop bossing me around, Dean. Look. My whole life, you take
    the wheel, you call the shots, and I trust you because you are my
    brother. Now I'm asking you, for once, trust me.

    Dean: No. You don't know what you're doing, Sam.

    Sam: Yes, I do.

    Dean: Then that's worse.'

    Sam: Why? Look, I'm telling you—

    Dean: Because it's not something that you're doing, it's what you are! It means—

    Sam: What? No. Say it.

    Dean: It means you're a monster.

    Whatever how you want to whitewash everything bad Dean did, as many Dean fans always try to do but claim Sam fans are who do that.

    The conversation is so clear, Dean is telling Sam " it's not something that you're doing, it's what you are! It means— It means you're a monster.", so Dean told Sam it's not his actions but worse it's who he is as he is a monster.




    By the way I never blamed Dean for the fake phone call, but Sam still doesn't know it was fake, he think that what his brother think of him, and sure after Dean's words to him before the fight, it make sense to tell him that in the call, but you know what, Sam never mentioned this call because he think he deserved it.

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  39. Rose18 October 2014 at 16:42

    You want to claim that Sam agreed to be possessed?? Sam agreed to live and follow his brother plan, Sam thought he was talking to his brother and he was betrayed.

    Seriously claiming Sam agreed to the possession is the most lame whitewashing ever for Dean.

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  40. Rose18 October 2014 at 16:54

    WoW! I like how you included the times when Sam was possessed, sure anything to hate Sam.
    But Dean calling Sam a monster in S4 when he was completely Dean wasn't bad at all!

    And your words about Sam preferring to be with Amelia instead of finding Dean is silly, you made it look like Sam was searching for Dean or will began to search or even know Dean was alive, but he found Amelia and stopped.
    Do you have any idea when exactly Sam met Amelia? how much time passed between Dean's disappearance and finding Amelia?
    Did you even see Sam's speech with Amelia's father, Sam really believed Dean died in the explosion, but he was completely in his mind, the second Sam saw how Amelia's father open his beer he remembered how Dean was doing the same, and then he talked about Dean, he said he lost him, Amelia's father asked "Was he a good man" and Sam replied "he was the best"

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  41. elle j.18 October 2014 at 17:00

    You're right when you say it was Sam who offered to leave in "Good God Y'All", but it isn't that simple. In "Sympathy For The Devil", Dean told Sam that he was having a hard time forgiving and forgetting because Sam chose a demon over his own brother and that Sam let him down in ways (he couldn't even count). Dean went on to say "I don't think we can ever be what we were. I don't think I can ever trust you." The rift between the brothers that was some time coming actually happened in "Good God Y'All". Sam knows Dean's feelings and is feeling isolated and unstable to the point he tells Dean that he is having a hard time trusting himself and shouldn't be hunting. Dean's anger and mistrust towards Sam prevails him to agree. Dean once again voices the sentiment that Sam is at times a burden to him when he tells Sam "I spend more time worrying about you than doing the job right" and agrees they should go their separate ways. It was Dean's actions and words towards Sam that were the bigger factor in Sam leaving than Sam's doubt in himself.

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  42. Rose18 October 2014 at 17:01

    Actually Dean talk a lot about Mary like she is his mother alone, I can't forget how when 8 years old Sam asked Dean why they don't talk ever about their mom, Dean's reply was screaming in Sam and telling him to not dare to talk about mom!

    The funny thing is some Dean fans say how horrible Sam is for not being emotionally attached to Mary, and sure they use his words in the pilot (the same words Sam apologized for and said he didn't mean them), but those Dean fans forgot that Dean spent almost 5 years showered with the love of both John and Mary while Sam got nothing, Sam can't even remember Mary, if not for the pics Sam won't know how Mary looked like, and finally they never talked about Mary, and Sam wasn't allowed to even mention her.

    ReplyDelete
  43. elle j.18 October 2014 at 17:16

    This is my interpretation of events from the conversation Crowley and Dean had in the bar. I thought that by Dean killing it not only satiates the mark, but it also keeps him from becoming a full on demon. In other words, there is some humanity left in Dean. It's deminishing by the day, but there is still a touch of humanity. Dean has also exhibited a small amount of free will when he disobeyed Crowley and killed the husband instead of the cheating wife. It makes me wonder how much of what Dean said is the demonic part taking over or if it's Dean's long burried feelings spilling out.

    I'll say it agan, it hate this demonic Dean story. Yes it is giving JA some great material to act with, but it damaging the show by dividing the brothers and fans once again. I miss the days of the Winchesters working together and watching each other's backs when they were hunting the monster of the week, before the show went off on another track with the angelic wars.

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  44. Rose18 October 2014 at 20:26

    There are a lot of stuff changed from the original scripts, but what we saw in the screen is what happened, so I don't care what was the original thing.

    They originally were supposed to make Benny still feeding and killing people, there was a deleted scene about that, so it reached the level of being filmed, and sure that would make Sam right in all his reactions against Benny and Dean wrong, but they deleted the scene and now Sam is the wrong one.

    So excuse me if I just take what we saw on the screen here too.

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  45. Rose18 October 2014 at 20:33

    Yes I totally agree.

    I don't know what the definition of "forgiving" for some Dean fans, who truly forgive something never bring it up again.
    We never saw Sam bring up past mistakes of anyone, not Dean not Cas, not anyone.
    Sam get angry and lash his anger out at the moment, then done he truly move on, when Sam say he forgave something, he truly forgave and would never bring that up again, unlike Dean who always bring past mistakes which he claimed he forgave, and he add more stuff like telling Sam that one of his sins is "losing his soul"!

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  46. Rose18 October 2014 at 20:40

    Sam didn't apologize about a lot of crap he said and did.
    At least after what Sam said in the purge, he said in the final episode he was actually lying, and Dean saw firsthand how Sam was lying even before saying anything, because if he really doesn't care, why he bothered to follow Dean even after Dean hit him unconscious and left him in the street, Sam still followed and to the final moment trying to help and save Dean.

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  47. Sofya18 October 2014 at 20:57

    The fact is, there is no demon inside Dean, it's Dean, his soul twisted but isn't gone.
    So excuse us if we are wondering how much of the real Dean think that too,
    and how that means he spent a lifetime lying to Sam, and how all the
    big loving brother is bullshit, and how all what Dean did for Sam maybe
    wasn't completely out of love but there were other factors.

    Who wrote this dialogue is making a huge twist about everything we believed about Dean, about who we think is Dean.

    I hope when the real Dean back Sam make some actions, they will stay brothers and everything, and I don't want more angst, but Sam should know that taking care of him even in the real time of need is heavy on Dean's shoulders, Sam should stop Dean from taking care of him or helping him in anything even if he was injured or sick, they are
    brothers OK, but Sam can take that from Dean, he can make Dean no more
    responsible about anything related to him, so maybe Dean can breath easier and stop lying about how he like taking care of his little brother when he needs him like S8.
    Also I think Sam should prefer death over Dean saving his life, as Dean remember pretty much how many times he saved him (including getting him out of the fire when he was 6 months old), sure Dean doesn't remember how many times Sam saved him too, so Dean saving Sam again should be the last think Sam want, really Sam death is better than being saved by Dean who think this something he should throw in your face to hurt you.

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  48. Alexander18 October 2014 at 22:41

    Demon dean needs to go. He just creeps me out.

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  49. lala218 October 2014 at 23:00

    From the show's perspective, the Apocalypse is solely Sam's fault. He has been the only one blamed for it since S5. Wasn't the apocalypse in the list of things Dean told Sam he should confess in S8? And that girl just reminded Sam of how he ended the world in 9x02.

    I find it funny that the angels escaped blame when they were the ones who were, IMO,actually responsible for the Apocalypse.

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  50. lala218 October 2014 at 23:18

    How was it not a trick?

    Dean told Gadreel that Sam would NEVER say yes to him (Gadreel), but Dean did know who Sam would say yes to (Dean). Gadreel appeared to Sam as DEAN b/c that was the only way to get Sam to agree.

    Plus, Sam wasn't actually agreeing to being possessed by an angel. He was saying "yes" to "Dean's," "Are you with me" question or whatever he said. If that is not a trick, I don't know what is.

    It was most definitely a trick. Now, I, personally, didn't care that Dean tricked Sam in this way, but I recognize that he did indeed trick him. Even Dean acknowledges he tricked Sam.

    But beyond that, Carver, yet again, screwed w/canon. If the angels can trick people into saying yes, why didn't Lucifer as Jessica back in FTBYAM simply ask Sam something like, "Did you love me" so he could say, "yes" and then just take over his body?!?!?!?

    Carver sucks w/his ridiculous retcons!

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  51. elle j.19 October 2014 at 00:34

    I agree the fault of jumpstarting the Apocalypse has been placed on Sam when it was both brothers who unknowingly played a part. Dean broke the first seal and Sam broke the last. You are so right about the angels role and there's a third person specifically whose actions are the most egregious. I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to find out that Castiel was the one who let Sam out of the panic room let alone rip into him for betraying Sam, Dean, and even Bobby. For that matter, look at all the death and mayheim Cas has caused from his role in the Apocalypse to unleashing the Leviathen, but all seems to be forgiven because it's not really mentioned after the fact.

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  52. lala219 October 2014 at 01:40

    I actually solely blame the angels for the apocalypse. We learned that they wanted to jump start it AND that they could have stopped Lilith from breaking the seals but they didn't. They were in complete control of that entire situation, but get none of the blame.



    It is harder for me to blame Dean and Sam for unknowingly breaking seals so I don't. Dean was in Hell when he broke the first seal. Who wouldn't crack after 30 years of torture? And he didn't even know he was breaking a seal. And while I disagreed w/Sam hanging around Ruby and drinking her blood, I can't say the goal of killing Lilith was a bad one. How was he supposed to know that killing her would START the apocalypse? The one person who knew what was really happening neglected to give him all the details (Castiel), but had no problem placing all the blame on him. As we saw in S9, Sam will forever feel guilty for the apocalypse.

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  53. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 02:05

    1 Dean didn't tell Gadreel to my knowledge to take Dean's form. Also as you said he'd have a better chance but there wasn't any guarantee. 2 Sam was not agreeing to are you with me. Dean/Gadreel:I've got a plan. Sam asks what the plan is. Dean/Gadreel:Is that a yes Sam:Yes Gadreel asked him if his answer was yes and Sam said Yes. Sam is the person who said yes without getting the details. An angel can only possess the host if the host agrees. The whole thing was Gadreel and Sam. Dean wasn't even there.

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  54. elle j.19 October 2014 at 02:08

    I don't blame Sam or Dean because they were unwitting pawns being used in a much larger scheme. Unfortunately, Sam is the one with the marks against him for technically starting the Apocalypse and for not at least looking for a way to pull Dean out of Purgatory. Wish that wasn't the case, but there it is.

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  55. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 02:21

    Saying Dean tricked Sam is the lamest whitewashing of Sam. The conversation was between Sam/Gadreel Dean wasn't even there so I'd like to know how he had anything to do with it let alone tricked Sam. Sam was ready to die to the point he wanted to make sure he couldn't return yet all of a sudden for no reason he changes his mind and decides to live for no reason? It doesn't make anymore sense then the fanon that Dean tricked Sam.

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  56. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 02:25

    No it is Dean saying if what Sam says is true it means he'd be a monster. He's not calling Sam a monster but stating what he believe would be the result of what Sam said. "It would mean you're a monster." isn't calling someone a monster. "You're a monster." like in the voicemail is calling someone a monster. Dean's words were speculation.

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  57. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 02:25

    How do you trick someone when you're not even there?

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  58. lala219 October 2014 at 02:46

    Ahh . . . well, I don't remember the actual dialogue. I've only seen that episode once. "I've got a plan" is pretty vague, IMO, and it certainly shouldn't be sufficient for an angel possession but that has more to do w/Carver's crappy script than the characters.


    As I interpreted the scene, Dean is the one who told Gadreel to come to Sam as "Dean" in order to get Sam to say "yes." I could look it up on YT to refresh my recollection, but I'm pretty sure Dean told Gadreel that Sam would NEVER say "yes" to Gadreel but he (Dean) knew who Sam would say "yes" to, meaning himself. I don't believe Gadreel decided on his own to come to Sam as "Dean." That was Dean's plan.



    That is a trick in my eyes. Again, I don't care that Dean tricked Sam. I understand why Sam would be upset, but the actual "trick" never bothered me, and it still doesn't. I do disagree w/the idea that it was not a trick when it was.

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  59. lala219 October 2014 at 03:07

    I'm curious . . . would it be so bad in your mind for Dean to have tricked Sam? If so, why?

    I'm a bi-bro fan, and I believe Carver did an excellent job at giving us Dean's POV in 9x01. I disagree w/those who say Dean was being selfish or that he was going against what Sam wanted. As far as Dean knew, Sam was giving up b/c he felt there was no other option. Gadreel - who Dean had vetted through Castiel - presented Dean w/an option. When Sam was last conscious, he made a choice to STOP the trials so he would not die. I'm not sure why some think Dean should have known that Sam wanted to die. Yes, he saw Sam making a deal w/Death, but that is still not "wanting to die." Accepting your fate - which is what I saw Sam doing in the S9 premiere - is NOT the same thing as wanting to die.

    Yes, Dean made a questionable decision to save Sam, but that is what I've come to expect from the Winchester brothers so it never bothered me. I knew Sam would be upset, and I understood why he was going to be upset but I still supported Dean's decision to save his brother. I wish the writers had done a better job of explaining WHY Sam was upset instead of giving him those OTT, OOC speeches but these writers are always, IMO, throwing Sam under the bus.

    So, I do believe Dean tricked Sam, but that doesn't make him a bad, selfish brother or an evil person, IMO. Anyway, no offense intended.

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  60. lala219 October 2014 at 03:11

    So true!

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  61. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 07:57

    It's not bad if Dean tricked him but it wasn't Dean but Gadreel. Sam stated he wanted to make sure he couldn't be brought back. If you don't want to die then why make sure you can't come back? For someone who is bibro you sound pro Sam. You're assuming I'm trying to rewrite it to save Dean. Dean wasn't there to trick his brother yet he's being blamed for tricking Sam into living. Sam said he wanted to die and that Dean knew this. Sam saying something to his brother ok but he didn't explain to Dean he viciously accused him and told him he didn't want Sam dead cause he was afraid of being alone and he didn't sacrifice unless he didn't have to sacrifice anything. That's more then brotherly interaction. As I've stated Carver has destroyed the character of Sam. I'm tired of Sam since season 8 claiming Dean is the bad guy and the reason for everything wrong in Sam's life. That crap is Carver having Sam spew is unbelievable and that includes the 'trick crap but Carver since Comic con 2012 has made a point of letting us know his warped ideas on the brothers.

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  62. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 08:01

    Regardless Sam should know better. Remember the shapeshifter in Skin? Sam had to know it might not be Dean but he just accepted it and said yes. Sam chose to respond to Gadreel's "Is that a yes?" with Yes. He had to know something was up with Bobby being there let alone the way Bobby and Dean were acting yet he just accepted that it and all the people were parts of his mind.

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  63. lala219 October 2014 at 18:44

    Are you saying Sam is at fault for something he did while in a coma and had no actual knowledge of doing? When Sam woke up in the Impala, he had no idea that "Dean" had approached him w/a plan that he agreed to do. He didn't know what happened b/c he was in a coma when that occurred.


    I think it is best for us to just agree to disagree.

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  64. lala219 October 2014 at 18:55

    Ummm . . . did you read my post? Where did I say anything against Dean? I am always accused by Sam girls or Dean girls of not being "bi bro" b/c I disagree w/something their fave did. It's actually quite funny. Being a fan of BOTH characters, I can see faults in them BOTH. Liking both characters has made the show are more enjoyable to me than you diehard Sam or Dean girls.

    I clearly stated that I was in support of Dean's choices in the S9 premiere. I understand why he tricked Sam. The trick didn't bother me. I don't think Dean is selfish b/c of his choice. I don't think he is evil. I don't think he "shoved an angel" into Sam's body. I don't think he went against Sam's will. But if after reading all that, you still think I'm pro-Sam and anti-Dean . . . whatever.

    Just because I refuse to hold Sam responsible for consenting to something WHILE HE WAS IN A COMA does not make me "pro Sam." It makes me rational. I'm sorry but you can't fault someone for something they actually have no knowledge of doing, which is what you're doing here. You're basically saying that in his coma state, Sam should have been questioning the "Dean" who came to him when there is NO reason Sam should have done that. You ARE doing your best - in my mind - to hold Sam at fault for something Dean ACKNOWLEDGES was his doing. But . . . hey . . . that's cool.

    Your hatred of Sam is strong, which is fine. We can just agree to disagree.

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  65. lala219 October 2014 at 19:00

    Maloose, I'm pretty sure that conversation was the one in S7 after Sam found out about Amy. That was the one where they changed the dialogue.

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  66. maloose19 October 2014 at 19:21

    I'm a little hazy on that, but it was stated in the last con, a week ago(?), and I think I read sth with 'bridge', so I thought it was about 'Road trip'. And it'd make a lot more sense with Dean's behavior, leaving and then asking to get back 2 eps later before killing Gadreel as he promised!!! WTH!
    Anyway, my point is I don't think there was any intention to hint Dean's absence was hard for Sam. Apparently Sam was angry b/c he was ready to die(!!!) and according to Jared, he decided to torture Dean in retaliation.

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  67. chris68419 October 2014 at 19:45

    Lala, I usually agree with you and I also though the writing for Sam was inconsistent and poorly explained (I think part of the issue is that some of the writers weren't clear on Sam's POV) but I wanted to comment on a couple of parts of your comment.

    First, I don't think the issue with the initial possession was that Dean knew that Sam wanted to die - if Sam even did in fact want to die, and I don't think that's what was being said. Dean knew that Sam would choose to die over being possessed, and that is because Sam has a long history of autonomy violations that warped his own sense of self to the point where he sees himself as a monster - from being tainted with Azazel's demon blood, to the Meg possession of season 2, to the Lucifer possession which Sam took on to stop the Apocalypse. Issues with being controlled or manipulated by evil supernatural creatures is Sam's weak spot, the way family is Dean's and the two brothers know that about each other.

    But even still, I'm with you on being ok with Dean making that decision. Dean needed to make a decision, Sam was unconscious, and how do you really know what someone who's not there to speak for himself would really say? And if he let Sam die, he couldn't take that back.

    But the bigger issue is that when Sam woke up, Gadreel convinced Dean to lie to Sam for weeks or months because at that point, Sam could speak for himself and expel Gadreel. Dean believed Sam would choose death over possession, so he lied to Sam. If I were in a very close relationship (and family counts here), and that person lied to me to rob me of the choice of making my decision about my own life and body, I would be pretty upset. I don't think it was OOC writing to make Sam upset about that.

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  68. Julia Greer19 October 2014 at 19:47

    I don't remember Sam calling Dean pathetic. I remember, however, when Dean called Sam pathetic while locking him into the panic room in season 4.


    Dean chose a demon too, and very recently.


    If Sam had disowned Dean, he would have GONE. Like, when Dean told Sam to choose another hemisphere maybe? That's "disowning".


    Sam was angry last year, and lashed out, yes, cruelly. Dean in Season 5 was pretty cruel to. There's not much difference between "I don't think we can ever be what we were" and "If you want to be brothers…" Sometimes there's too much importance afforded to semantics and actions speak louder than words. There isn't one episode after "The Purge" where Sam didn't show in many ways that he cared about Dean.


    Honestly, I'm not sure how much Dean forgives. He keeps bringing up old trangressions, and that doesn't indicate forgiveness to me. I wonder how many times Sam will blame Dean for being a demon after he's cured. We'll see, but I don't think he will.


    If you want to know where Dean's suicide tendencies and low self-esteem come from, look at John first. Dean's been passively suicidal since the beginning of the show, and it's hard to blame Sam for Dean's issues, when he keeps bringing him back from the dead against his wishes!


    All of that is to say that it's not just Sam. Both bros have faults, have hurt, betrayed and manipulated each other at times.

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  69. sdwhiskey19 October 2014 at 19:50

    Nope. @rthompson1138 "Dean is a Demon. But that's only part of the problem. The Mark of Cain is the big issue!"

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  70. sdwhiskey19 October 2014 at 19:54

    @rthompson1138 "Dean is a Demon. But that's only part of the problem. The Mark of Cain is the big issue!"

    According to the writers, Dean is a DEMON. What makes him unique is that it was his own soul turned into a demon, and that he has the Mark of Cain as well.

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  71. sdwhiskey19 October 2014 at 20:00

    As I said above, according to Robbie Thompson: @rthompson1138: "Dean is a Demon. But that's only part of the problem. The Mark of Cain is the big issue!"

    So, according to the show's writer, Dean is already a Demon plus he has the added problem with the MoC affecting him.

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  72. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 21:59

    Sam didn't care about that when he wanted to make sure he couldn't come back and why all of a sudden would that change his mind? He knows Dean would do anything to keep him alive IE selling his soul in season 2 to resurrect Sam so that bit wouldn't change anything if knowing Dean would sell his soul for him didn't. Sam didn't trick Dean when he said me or Benny? And then after seeing Dean dumped Benny because Dean was there as his partner suddenly he forgets who Amelia is when he was telling his brother she was everything to him? Dean trusted him and he tricked Dean into turning his back on a friend in favor of keeping his brother in his life.

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  73. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 22:02

    I didn't say you were saying anything against Dean. I was stating you're original post for someone who was bibro seemed to lean in Sam's favor. I've come across posters stating they're bibro then proceed to take Dean apart and say Sam can do no wrong.

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  74. Tawrens19 October 2014 at 22:05

    He knew Gadreel not Dean had approached him. He wasn't aware of being possessed but he knew what happened otherwise. Why is it so hard to accept Sam is as flawed as anyone else out there? Sam isn't god.

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  75. Julia Greer20 October 2014 at 01:13

    I'm sorry, you're not making any sense to me. Are you now saying that yes, Dean tricked Sam but Sam tricked Dean before (not sure how), so Dean was justified to do the same thing?


    Don't you see? The end of Season 8 and beginning of season 9 was all about Dean for Sam. He stopped the trials because DEAN begged him to. Then he was dying anyways, so he wanted Death to make sure it was final this time, because he didn't want DEAN to do something stupid. Then DEAN begged him again to stay with him, this time basically saying that his survival depended on Sam. So, for DEAN's sake, Sam decided to go with Dean's plan, trusting that his brother had his best interests at heart. Unfortunately, he was betrayed.

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  76. lala220 October 2014 at 03:08

    How was I being pro-Sam though? Is it "pro-Sam" to think Sam can't possibly be held responsible for things he did while in a coma? That's just logical, IMO but whatever.

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  77. lala220 October 2014 at 03:40

    What are you talking about? Sam didn't know Gadreel was the one who came to him. Sam saw DEAN, not Gadreel. At the very end, Dean morphed into Gadreel, but Sam didn't consciously know that.



    Why is it hard for you to accept that Dean tricked Sam? He tricked Sam. He tricked him. That's what happened. Dean acknowledges it. Why can't you?

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  78. lala220 October 2014 at 03:45

    Chris, I actually don't disagree w/anything you've written here. I do think the larger issue was the lying to Sam and taking away Sam's ability to make his own choice about his life. I wish the writers had actually allowed Sam to express that instead of the OTT, crazy speeches he gave in ST and TP. To me, that would have served the overall story better b/c it would have focused on SAM instead of Dean.

    After TP, most people were talking about how mean Sam was to Dean, and the conversation remained focused on the pain Dean was feeling instead of whatever Sam was feeling about being possessed again or having little control over his life. As usual, the writers did a disservice to Sam, IMO.

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  79. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 05:09

    How could he not know Gadreel morphed, reached over and put his hand on Sam's shoulder. Regardless Sam supposed to know better about taking things at face value. You need Sam to be tricked ok but seeing as Dean said Sam wouldn't accept Gad's offer and it was Gadreel wearing Dean's form not the actual Dean that made the deal with Sam so I can't see how Dean tricked anyone into anything. Just because Carver needs to make Dean a bad guy doesn't mean he is. Carver has destroyed the characters and the brothers relationship. Two guys who trust each other no matter what have been turned ingto enemies. Carver needs to be replaced with someone who knows what the hell they're doing.

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  80. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 05:13

    Sam was giving up and then all of sudden he wanted to live? Also what he was doing was screwing Dean over because he couldn't of not known Dean wouldn't 't try to bring him back. Sam had to know Dean would try an d that with leave Dean facing hell again like in season 3. All the demon would have to do is say he/she would try and try knowing it would fail because do not return policy Sam asked for. BNo Sam and Dean's on the hook to go to hell.

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  81. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 05:16

    His body was in a coma but his mind was obviously working just fine if he could say yes to having an angel possess him. For some reason Sam girls (Radical Sam fans) believe Sam was capable of doing everything but agree to be possessed while in a coma. They make all kinds of excuses why Sam could do this or that but not agree to host Gad.

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  82. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 05:22

    The person begging Sam was Sam not Dean anymore then Bobby was Bobby Sam said that himself. The one who gave the no you no me speech was not Dean but Gadreel wearing Dean's face. As I stated he knows not to do what he did which was just accept Gadreel's offer . How does Gadreel wearing Dean's face become Dean to you? Julian Riching (Death) himself said at a con as well as Jensen and Jared that Death in Sam's mind Was Not Death but a figment of Sam's own mind.

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  83. lala220 October 2014 at 07:20

    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by this: "capable of doing everything but agree to be possessed." What is "everything?" What did Sam allegedly do while in a coma?

    Maybe you are thinking back on comments from other people b/c I never claimed Sam did anything. I saw him lying there, not doing much of anything.

    And, yes, his mind worked, but he certainly didn't recall anything that happened while he was in his coma, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. If he had remembered what happened, he would have likely confronted Dean about Dean's face morphing into someone else's right there at the end.

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  84. lala220 October 2014 at 07:23

    Sam is not responsible for every decision Dean makes just like Dean is not responsible for Sam's decisions. Basically, you're saying Sam can never die or be fine w/dying b/c that will place Dean in the position of selling his soul for Sam. That burden can't be placed on Sam. Sam has every right to control his life and fate just like Dean.

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  85. lala220 October 2014 at 07:35

    I don't NEED Sam to be tricked. That's what happened. Dean tricked him. That's what Carver wrote, and that's how it played out on screen.



    Can we agree that an entity wearing Dean's face and speaking in Dean's voice approached Sam w/the plan? Can we agree that the real Dean KNEW this entity was speaking to Sam while wearing DEAN's face? Can we agree that that entity is the one that got Sam to consent? Can we also agree that after Sam consented, that entity morphed into another person, surprising Sam? Can we finally agree that Sam had NO conscious knowledge of any of these events after he emerged from his coma?


    That is what aired in the episode. If you cannot agree w/me on those things, then this discussion is pointless. Are you saying Dean was unaware of what Gadreel was doing? Was Dean clueless to what was happening w/Sam? I mean, come on!



    Here's the difference btw us: having Dean trick Sam makes Dean a bad guy in your mind. It doesn't in mine. That's where we differ. You are very troubled by this "trick," and that's why you are fighting so hard against it. That's fine.


    As I said before, Carver did a great job of explaining why Dean made the choices he did. Dean's choice did not make him a bad guy in my mind. I thought it was understandable. I think he was wrong to lie to Sam about it. He should have told Sam and then let Sam decide what he wanted to do, but I still don't think Dean is a bad guy. Sam is not a bad guy either. They are both good guys w/good hearts who do their best but make mistakes from time to time. It happens.

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  86. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 16:13

    If you watched the Season 10 premiere they actually show Sam watching Gadreel morph from Dean into himself. Sam knew it wasn't Dean. Trick suggests that something underhanded happened. Carver is intent on destroying both Dean and John. Comic con before season 8 a fan asked if it were possible to have Sam not be sick or needing rescue. Carver responded, "No that would make him (Sam) boring like Dean." Carver took over season 8. He gets to chose what story ideas are scripted and which of those are filmed. Unfortunately he's forgotten it's a show about two brothers who love and take care of each other. Since Carver writes something in one week and then the opposite the next week I've taken to ignoring his canon. He's ignoring so why can't I.

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  87. Tawrens20 October 2014 at 16:17

    Sam apparently especially in Carver's mind responsible for Sam's decisions. I don't hold Sam responsible for anybody himself. Unfortunately Sam can't seem to hold himself responsible. Sam acting like a jerk in season 8 Dean's fault. Season 9 Sam wanted to die then why is he still here? Even if he didn't just let himself die regardless of who he was hosting why then didn't he end it after Gadreel got kicked out? Because Sam didn't want to die so angel possession or not doesn't matter.

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  88. lala220 October 2014 at 18:45

    Again, Sam didn't remember "Dean" morphing into Gadreel. That's the point. If he had remembered, don't you think he would have mentioned it?
    I can't stand anything about these Carver years so we agree there.

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  89. K Smith22 October 2014 at 16:18

    Sam's "I lied" was about what he said earlier in the season finale, about how he was okay with Dean dying to kill Metatron.

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  90. Jeremy Karwaski26 October 2014 at 17:16

    Who was the red haired chic at the very end with the dead guys on the walls. Did Abbadon SOMEHOW make it or is it another threat to CRowley.

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