As I’ve reviewed Supernatural this season, for fear of letting my episode reviews get too far off track, I found myself writing about a lot of the smaller things and putting off the bigger, global issues until, well, later. It’s later and time to take a step back and look at the big picture.
I’ve limited this article to 10 of the biggest issues that I believe this show currently struggles with, prioritized and starting with the more damaging. There’s more that could be discussed, but I didn’t want to be writing this list forever, and it is really intended to focus on reoccurring or structural issues. So here we go - a top 10 list of the show’s biggest problems, and what I would do if I were God, Carver, Chuck, Cas, Metatron, or whoever is running things at the moment.
Issue 1 – Too Much Has Not Been Sam and Dean’s Story
Put the major story focus back on Sam AND Dean (note, that’s an “and,” not “or”). There should be two big interconnected storylines that dwarf all others. One should have Sam at the center and one should have Dean. There should be equal focus and effort put into developing each, and these storylines above all else should be carefully paced and developed throughout the season.This is a formula that worked perfectly well for the first seven seasons. While Sam was trying to figure out what his psychic visions were about, Dean was working through his self-worth issues and anger at his dad. While Dean was facing death and an eternity of torture in Hell, Sam was wrestling with whether to trust Ruby. While Sam was back soulless, Dean was taking the lead in investigating what was up with the hunt the for alpha vamps. Things started drifting away from Sam and Dean though – possibly starting in season 6, although not becoming as apparent until seasons 8 and 9.
In the past couple of seasons, it seems the show has flipped to a structure of having Sam and Dean share one story, having Cas at the center of the second, and having possibly additional smaller stories with other characters that may or may not intersect with the Winchester’s storylines. Even the guest characters too often don’t seem to be there to support the Wincester storylines. Guests such as Charlie, Garth, or Jody, are arriving with their own arcs in which Sam or Dean play a supporting role.
While some exploration of guest and reoccurring characters is welcome, the Winchesters can’t be so separated from major storylines of the season. When Dean went to kill Metatron in the finale, the confrontation felt forced because Dean hadn’t had any direct contact with Metatron since season 8. In fairness, Dean did have the Mark of Cain storyline, but while Dean’s Mark of Cain storyline progressed, Sam was left floundering without much to do.
The angel storyline could have been used to create a good role for Sam. The angel possession could have opened up opportunities for deeper exploration of Sam’s feeling about possession and his past traumas. The parallels between Sam’s and Gadreel’s histories could have been explored with more one-on-one interaction between the two. And Sam could have been used as the voice speaking on behalf of humanity in an arc about angels possessing and destroying hundreds or thousands of humans as they destroyed each other.
Instead the season felt disjointed. There have been comments about pacing, and while I think there’s valid criticism in that area as well, the root problem as I see it is more that the Winchesters’ storyline felt like it was dragging because it wasn’t developed enough. Many of the meatiest parts of this year’s story played out far away from them.
Dean looks certain to have an exciting, supernatural role in the coming season. Meanwhile we’re likely looking at an upcoming season in which Sam’s story will focus on trying to save Dean. That’s fine as a basic premise, but my fear is there will be little thought and development into making that meaty enough to stand as one of the season’s central storyline. For that to happen, there needs to be attention paid to the following:
- First, there needs to be a fleshed out plot that’s interesting. Throwing some possibilities out here as examples – there was a running joke when Crowley was first introduced that Sam was always trying to kill Crowley. They could build off of that to include a cat and mouse game between Sam and Crowley. Another possibility – while Sam is trying to turn Dean back to human, maybe Dean will be trying to turn Sam into a demon. There’s potential in the set up, but it requires a commitment on the part of the writing team to put some creativity toward writing for Sam and keeping Sam a focus in the story, and that’s something they’ve had a bad track record with lately.
- Second, Sam need to be driving his story. I hope I’m wrong on this, but I suspect we’ll see a lot of worried looks from Sam or shots of him doing research on the computer, while he waits for some other character – most likely Cas – to come along with a plan and drive things forward. Meanwhile, Sam might hunt ghosts off-screen. Sam is a character who takes initiative. Let’s see him get out there and poke some bears instead of sitting around and waiting for solutions to come to him.
- Third, Sam’s story needs to involve a character arc. Sam’s actions need to say something about who Sam is, and not be just reactive to Dean’s story. Sam’s been missing a character arc for too long, and that brings me to the next point.
Issue 2 – Sam Needs a Character Arc
There’s been a lot of use of the expression “point of view” in viewer comments when discussing Sam (or more specifically, the lack of point of view). I think Sam has had some isolated moments of point of view within episodes - not nearly enough. But while point of view is important because it helps us to see things from a character’s angle and identify with him, there’s something else that’s been completely absent from the show for the past four seasons that I think is even more critical – and the absence more damaging. That is a character arc for Sam. The difference in terms being that point of view can mean seeing someone else's story from a character's perspective, whereas a character arc is about rounding out and developing a character.Sam has had storylines (soullness and hellucinations are two good examples), but what’s been lacking has been an attempt to show Sam reflecting on events and changing as a result of them. The Amelia storyline might have been an attempt at a character arc, but it became so muddled, as the focus shifted to triangle-drama rather than on what was going on internally with Sam, that in the end it wasn’t developed into an arc. The Gadreel possession storyline should have created an arc for Sam. It should have been a jumping off point to affect some change in how Sam sees his past and how he sees Dean. But the communication between Sam and Dean was too muddled, or the story was never supposed to be about Sam. Either way, in the end, the possession didn’t seem to have much of a lasting effect on Sam at all.
The result is that Sam's character growth has remained stunted since Swan Song, and it's hard to identify with a character if you can't empathize with their struggle to figure things out.
Issue 3 – Out-of-Character Writing
This one really shouldn’t need to be said, but for god’s sake, Sam and Dean need to be written in character. Ideally, no characters on the show should be written out of character, but there are two characters on this show for whom it’s absolutely critical to get it right.With every development, the writer should be asking, how would Dean react to this? How would Sam react to this? Instead, we’ve had a bizarre zig zag of reactions that taken together over several years can leave the viewer completely confused as to who these people are and why they’re reacting the way they are. For example, Sam is shown as being friendly with Meg in season 8 and confiding in her, even though they share a history that involved Meg possessing him, and while possessing him murdering a hunter, assaulting Jo, and trying to bait Dean into killing him. But when Gadreel possesses Sam in season 9 and kills Kevin while in Sam’s body, this leads Sam to be wracked with guilt and consumed with revenge. And then in the season finale, we hear Sam refer to Gadreel as one of their friends.
When Sam said to Dean that everything bad that had happened to them was because they were brothers, the meaning to me seemed to refer to the show’s history of demonstrating that when the Winchesters use the supernatural to help out family, there’s a ripple effect of negative reactions (in the most extreme example, triggering the apocalypse). But I seemed to be in a minority in that opinion, and most fans seemed puzzled by the comment. There were multiple problems with the comment. The first is that the comment was vague, and never revisited and elaborated on to make the meaning clear. The second is that there wasn’t a consistency to the past writing of Sam to make this meaning clear, without explanation. While the ripple effect of despair has been an ongoing theme on the show, I can’t remember Sam ever explicitly voicing concern about it. And the one-on-one lesson on the natural order, administered by Death, was given to Dean, not Sam.
The success of a fictional production depends on the audience identifying with and feeling like they really understand the characters. This illusion becomes almost impossible to maintain if the characterization is routinely changed on a whim.
Issue 4 – Wimping Out
Go Big. The show should make Dean evil and make it last the whole season. Let’s face it, the show’s in a rut. That’s expected for a show in its ninth/tenth year, but the dynamic needs to be shaken up. Some fans will absolutely hate it, but I think the show needs to do it.Issue 5 – The Show’s Identity Crisis
Figure out whether this is a story about humans or supernatural beings at its core, and commit to it. If it’s about humans, then the show should be developing human-size storylines, and stop writing Sam and Dean as spinning their wheels until someone supernatural comes along to fight their battles for them. Instead, the show should make humans a force to be reckoned with – smart, capable, and driven. If the creative staff decides this is a about supernatural creatures, then keep Dean a demon and give Sam his powers back to level the playing field.Issue 6 – Too Much Noise
Cut back the noise – not just the audio kind, but visual noise, and noise used in a broader sense – all of the stories, characters, and elements that distract but don’t add much to the story. This point first became apparent to me as I was watching Mother’s Little Helper this year. The episode felt scaled back and simplified in some way – more focused than what I’ve become used to getting. I struggled to define what about it worked, but in watching Bloodlines, the answer became clear. I was overwhelmed by the noise in Bloodlines. The first thing that hit me was the audio background track and the loud sound effects. And then there was the visual assault of bright colors, pretty faces, and lack of any real depth to draw me in. I kept watching the episode, but when I got to the end, I realized I had no idea what had happened in it.I’ve had similar reactions. Because I’ve been reviewing this show this season, I’ve watched most episodes at least two or three times. But earlier this season, someone mentioned Naomi, and my initial reaction was “who’s Naomi?” Something similar reoccurred a few weeks ago. Someone mentioned the absence of Malachi in the comments, and I was thinking, “Who’s Malachi?” I had to look him up on the Internet. This season was just too cluttered with too many plots, too much meaningless activity, too many unmemorable characters, and not enough focus on the core elements of the show. The exception to this was Dean’s transformation with the Mark of Cain. I thought the show did a nice job in slowly pacing out the changes within him, but this storyline was an exception.
Rumor has it that someone on the show decided to cut back the brother scene in the finale to make room for more noise.
Issue 7 – Too Much Silliness
Dial back the campiness. Somehow this year we ended up with angels who were more silly than threatening and villains who often seemed cartoonish. Camp has always had a minor place on the show, but it used to be used much more sparingly. In addition, while the humor has gotten more silly, the tension has become darker, leading to an odd pairing of moods – often within the same episode.Issue 8 – Messed Up Mythology
Stop messing with the mythology. Before any change in mythology is undertaken, someone should be asking “why.” If there’s not a damn good reason beyond a short-term convenience, just don’t do it.Issue 9 – Identity Crisis (Part II)
Play to the show's strengths. This show works best a lighter, suspenseful, sometimes funny, often snarky monster hunt. Its foundation is in the character interactions, the brotherly relationships, and the boys-being-boys humor. This show has in recent years tried to tackle some issues that were much too dark and deep. Mental illness and associations with rape are two examples – and neither was handled properly. It’s also gone very dark, with season-long depression arcs, an attempt at a noir mood, and intensified fighting between Sam and Dean.The show is on new ground this year with turning Dean into a demon. My hope is that this isn’t turned into an angst fest, but instead is used as a tool to bring out a new level of snarky banter, increased focus on Sam and Dean, and upping the tension and action.
Issue 10 – Dean and “Dean’s Little Brother”
Drop the Sam’s not a hunter shtick. Remember Sam’s history. Being a hunter might not have been the path Sam would have chosen when he was 12 years old, but he has been one since he was a child (with a brief break during the college years). He’s in his early 30s now, and experiences change you. He’s smart and capable – pretty damn kickass when he wants to be and he’s not being controlled by a writer who sees him only as Dean’s “little brother.” Remember soulless Sam and how awesome a hunter he was? There’s no reason Sam can’t be as capable with a soul. And enough with the MoL being Sam’s legacy crap. This may be more of a fandom fantasy than something the show is pushing, but I wouldn’t put it past some of the writers to try to turn him into a librarian.Sam’s smart and approaches problems and ethical dilemmas from a different place than Dean, but Sam has never been a librarian and he has just as much blood on his hands as Dean does. Besides, how does portraying one of the lead characters of a show as an poor hunter who doesn’t want to be there improve the show?
So what did you think of the season as a whole? What do you see as the biggest issues?
exccusme how we watch this with full movie ?
ReplyDeleteHallelujah sister! I miss the glory days of Supernatural and you pointed out ten of the reasons why it's become a bit of a shadow to its former self. Especially the campiness and silliness. I mean, I love the occasional silly moment, but it's now become more prominent than what I fell in love with in the show to begin with. I loved how much scarier it used to be, and now I don't get scared. I need more scary.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that we've had a 'scary' episode in years! We used to have loads of mini horror movies scattered throughout the seasons. Now we just get meta for the sake of meta and silliness taking up 80% of the season.
ReplyDeleteYup! Tone has been a big problem for a few years now, but especially this year with the treatment of the angels. But this issue isn't confined to not the angels. The monsters have been for the most part campy too, and campiness is really hard to pull off successfully.
ReplyDeleteI agree with pretty much all of these but Issue 8 is the one that bugs me the most. In the last couple of seasons they just change things on a whim to fit the story. Shapeshifters, the location of Purgatory and I don't even want to talk about what they've done with the Reapers.
ReplyDeleteYup I agree completely. You listed just about everything I find broken in Supernatural in recent years.
ReplyDeleteI also hope to see a season long evil demon Dean arc for season 10 without the brother angst. Dean, the Knight of Hell could eventually betray Crowley and become the new King of Hell maybe sometime mid-season. Would be fantastic!
Let's return the show to what once made it great tv!
Chris you really hit nail on the head with what I have been feeling this season (well, for most of the Carver era to be honest).
ReplyDeleteAngels were made into a goofy joke. Tired of them.
ReplyDeleteI miss good scary episodes. Would even settle for a worthwhile ghost story if done well enough and was made scary and dark for once.
Besides it's been awhile since our boys did a salt and burn. :)
I agree with everything you expose. These have been my issues since the first half of S9. I hope the writers and showrunner go back to the humanity of Sam and dean. It's what made this show so great, it's what made us connect with these characters. If Supernatural loses its human aspect, it'll be like another sci-fi/fantasy show with no real heart. Thanks for voicing some of our concerns.
ReplyDeleteThis entire thing makes it sound like Sam was the one to take a major backseat this year, wich was pretty much the opposite to my perception. He was the one to get the angel possession this year, the one to get the trials last year, the one to get the Amy angst trip the year before and the one to get the soulless arc. Dean did get more storylines this season BUT it's the first time he actually got some focus.
ReplyDeleteThis was the first year it was NOT all about Sam getting pimped up. As someone that grew sick of Dean basically being Sams driver or Robin I was very pleased and grew to like Sam again this year.
Sometimes less is more
Excellent review ! I agree with all of the above specially how Sam and his part and importance in the show is sidelined and currently is the biggest issue or better say missing core of the show !
ReplyDeleteIt has became obvious now that how writers have neglected Sam's emotional journey this season , something that made Sam fans disappointed and warry of watching new episodes !
Thank you for this I have had many of the Sam thoughts over the past two seasons.
ReplyDeleteI find my biggest issues are the characterization of Sam and Dean. Too often it feels like they are card board cuts out propping the guest of the weeks such as Charlie of Garth.
Or we have blatant ooc behavior such as Sam not looking for Dean in purgatory, Dean befriending a vampire, or manufactured brother angst where nothing is argued or worked out it's just more baggage to sweep under the rug. It feels like Sam and Dean are being written to serve the plots whims, when shouldn't it be the other way around?
Sam especially has been treated awfully. His point if view is either absent or muddled or wide open to interpretation. And for a lead character that is a huge problem. I should not have to reach this much to make sense of his motivations. I agree so much Sam does need a character arc stat to add insight and understanding and growth.
And that is not to say anything should be taken away from Deans myth arc, his time has come and I welcome it, they can take this demon dean storyline as dark as they like and I will support it. Just as long as they give us Sams side in this, make them both the focus of s10 and I think you will see the audience welcome the change. This was a story about an epic duo Sam and Dean, but too often it seems one side of that duo is sidelined. Many fans have held out
Thanks for responding, and good to hear that you enjoyed the review.
ReplyDeleteHey Lilith! You're still watching. I was wondering if you had dropped off. :-)
ReplyDeleteCont. held out hope for two long seasons hoping to see glimpses of that epic duo, let's hope Carver understands and this is all leading back to that S10.
ReplyDeleteI agree there have been missteps, but I have also seen improvements in some areas. The biggest problem I have with blaming everything on Carver is that most of these issues started much earlier, many I started noticing in the Gamble era. So that leaves to question who is really responsible here. Also, aside from Kripe coming back (and I'm not holding my breath for that), I can't imagine another shakeup would help things. There's always a transition period, and bringing someone in from the outside might make things worse.
ReplyDeleteRe OOC - I have to add in Castiel. Has a character ever been messed about with so much? He's been proud angel warrior, useless Slurpy numpty, barbarian, frat sex boy, reluctant charismatic leader, tongue-tied idiot and on and on.
ReplyDeleteHe's my favourite character, and frankly if I were Misha - I'd have a wax doll and lots of pins for the authors of this lazy rubbish. How can an actor possibly portray a character that changes hats from one week to the next? I've no emotional tie to Castiel in S9 because he's been so colossally buggered about with. I've no idea what to expect him to do other than to act as a predictable plot device irrespective of all his previous personality traits.
I'm so totally irked.
You´ve absolutely nailed it.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the first seven seasons and I know season six and seven had issues but right now, the show is in trouble. After the tenth season, and I guess we might get an eleventh, they should hire a new (or old) showrunner and wrap the show up, so that it ends at least on a high note.
I´m with you.
ReplyDeleteDo you have a specific issue in mind that started earlier? No offense.
ReplyDeleteThank you! You really hit it right. I think I agreed with every point you made with the possible exception of Dean being evil. He's a Winchester and I just can't see him evil for the whole season. That said you were spot on with everything else. Especially Sam. I can't tell you how tired I was this season of seeing Sam run into something evil, get punched, drop like a rock and then wait for Dean to run in and save him. Sam's character has been shredded over the last few years. And I totally agree with you on the Campiness. It's nauseating, get back to what makes this show work. Bring back that creepy, scary, eww factor.
ReplyDeleteAmen! One of the best things about this show (other than the bond the brothers had) was the eww factor and the make you jump scene you just knew was coming. I can't remember the last time the show made me flinch.
ReplyDeleteNone taken.
ReplyDeleteIssue 1 - There was a lot of discussion on these boards about how Sam and Dean didn't seem to be fighting the Leviathan. First it was Bobby's fight. Then it was outsourced to Frank. That was the season when guests started being featured more prominently,and Sam and Dean started being dumbed down (I started noticing that and commenting near the first half of season 7).
Issue 2 - Putting up a wall in season 6 prevented Sam from reflecting on what had happened in Hell, eliminated the possibility of a character arc around those experiences. In season 7, there was little focus on the emotional side of Sam's Hell trauma - even to the point of Sam just once describing what his experience was like. And once Cas fixed the physical symptoms, Sam's Hell trauma was completely gone.
Issue 3 - Sam and Dean's responses to Bobby becoming a ghost in season 7 as very inconsistent character writing. Their positions on this randomly switched from episode to episode - and I remember there being a lot of discussion on the boards around this at the time. Also, a lot of people thought Bobby choosing to stay behind as a ghost was out of character as he was always the practical voice.
Issue 4 - The show has a long history of wimping out when it they come close to making Sam or Dean go dark. Sweeping aside Dean's past as torturer, and not letting Sam do something that was actually evil when he was going dark in season 4, are two examples.
Issue 5 - The Leviathan were too powerful for Sam and Dean, and I remember this being a point of discussion in season 7. There was a fear then that Sam and Dean were continually being put in scenarios where they would need someone else to fight their battles.
Issue 9 - This was more of a Gamble issue.
6, 7, 8 & 10 have been more recent issues.
"Let’s face it, the show’s in a rut."
ReplyDeleteAs someone that doesn't feel this way and hasn't since Carver took control, I can't say I even feel the same way with your issues, EXCEPT for certain episodes feeling 'silly' at moments when they shouldn't, BUT I will say that at least those instances are when Metatron is in the scene, which makes me believe Metatron is supposed to be a parody himself anyways with the type of wimpy villain that he is. The one thing that hurts this is the showdown between Dean and Metatron when the angel-turned-archangel finally acts like he's b-a.
I agree with many things, the most important problem for me is definitely the out-of-character writing, specially with Sam and Dean's relationship but also Crowley and Dean's, for example when they were becoming kinda buddies because of an awfully written Winchester dispute, I loved that bond and then like in the next episode Dean is decided to kill him? and then he doesn't but with no good explanation? That was just awfully confusing and sometimes even enraging because, loving this show as much as I do, I get pretty pissed when they mess up what could be amazing story archs, I hope they don't mess up Demon Dean, I would love to see him be kinda evil but still him and also would love to see him and Crowley be demon buddies, I think there's great potential there. Anyways, looks like we'll have to wait and see.
ReplyDeleteMiss the glory days of Supernatural (The Kripke's era and maybe the Soulless Sam's arc). SPN is not GREAT anymore. It just OK.
ReplyDeleteI'm still watching... there have been a few bright spots (far and few between but some) this season but to be honest I still haven't even watched all of the season 9 finale. I like that Dean has an arc that doesn't involve drinking himself to death and we'll finally (hopefully) be able to see what Jensen can do with super dark material that is more explicit shown than moderately implied. I agree that a lot of issues started before Carver came along but I feel like he is the one who disrespected the source material the most between him and Gamble, which is crazy considering he was one of the writers that I really liked back then. I mean he's even gone as far as to basically change the genre of the show, to practically an action-adventure which is why things seem so campy and is more than likely to end the series with an unrealistic happy ending.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the article.
ReplyDeleteMost of the issue #1,#2 and #10 seemed the same thing to me, Sam was sparse and when he was around he was written awfully. I agree w/ you that this character had no growth since S3, he's been always in a never ending loop of hurt, despair, anger and determination. Even going as far as regressing to teenage!Sam in S8 and seeking normal!!! But please no more Sam arc, the one good thing about this season was it wasn't about Sam. They could and should have made him reflect on family values in eps about family, like Sharp Teeth, Purge or that Jody ep. This way we could see he had growth and his desperation to resurrect Dean was due to that.
#4 is not an issue, it's your preference. I really hope Dean doesn't go evil. Technically demons aren't mindless, they're just wicked w/ no moral, so I hope Dean fights his bloodlust impulse. SPN is about Winchesters fighting monsters, even if that monster is inside them.
#3, #5, #6 and #8, also that part of #1 about gust characters, I agree.
I have another issues:
1. The moral in the show is not clear. We had that 'maturity' crap of S8 and Sam's words this season. They were in complete contrast of what SPN has been talking from the start about family. I remember ppl speculating that Sam wanted to make a point and stop this unhealthy codependency. Turned out he had no such a grand plan. He was just ultra pissed! We shouldn't have been doubtful of the wrongness of those words, but S8 has left us no other choice.
2. Pacing. I absolutely hate it when they cram all the big stuff in 3 eps, WTH?! They had 23 eps, at least 2 plotlines and all they did was feeding us w/ silly MOTW ep dedicated to guest characters and little to no growth in plotlines in them. I don't think even Carver can beat himself in doing a worse showrunning that what he did this season.
Great post. I confess to not having read, in depth, all of your reviews this season, but what I have read I've found thoughtful and evenhanded. I have the same reaction to this list.
ReplyDeleteIn answer to what I have thought of this season overall. Basically, I"ve ignored the overreaching plot I have enjoyed it. But, I'm bored with the Angel storyline. IMHO when story is finished....or (especially) a character's story is finished. Let it go. I have been sick of Crowley for 2 maybe 3 seasons now. I'm over Cass. That's what I kept thinking of when I was reading your discussions for #1 and #2. For me the quest to make a place for characters the fans love and whose stories have ended, is the biggest reason that Dean and Sam have drifted away from being the core of the series stories. If we look back at the first couple of seasons Sam and Dean were at the core of those arc stories. The quest to find the demon that killed their mother.
When you mention Sam needing a character arc...I want that to come in to play for Dean as well. What I'd love to see is the writers letting a character move through their arc and come out on the other side *retaining* those lessons/changes. (TV has come a long way with this aspect. When I was a teen the idea was that characters never changed permanently. Something traumatic would happen to a character and it would be completely forgotten in the next ep. (The episode that embodies this the most was on Starsky and Hutch. Hutch is kidnapped and forcibly hooked on heroin. Not only was his recovery from this not dealt with, the incident was never brought up again. The flashing red bulb with regard to that point is Dean's self worth issues and his 'do absolutely anything to avoid losing his brother. After all this time he's still making the same decisions for the same reasons. It's okay for the characters to change and grow and for it to stick. For someone who has been watching for 7, 8, 9 seasons we get bored if nothing changes. Supernatural used to be a show I made sure got watched before I went to bed the night it aired. To one I eventually clean off the DVR. And frankly, I still haven't watched the final three episodes.
The writers may have to work harder to get the plot to layout the way they want it but, in my experience, when the writers work harder the result is exponentially better.
What I haven't been able to decide is if the problem is a willingness (or lack there of) to sever ties with what Kripke set up (Angel war, Crowley, Cass) rather than the story telling abilities of the current showrunner. I lean toward the former.
ReplyDeleteAs I see it, the show is about 2 brothers and the journey they share together. They don't need separate storylines because what happens to one, happens to the other. For 8 years, Dean helped Sam when Sam was the center of the story. Now the story is focused on Dean and it's Sam's turn to be a supportive brother. It's an awesome premise that puts both brothers into a challenging new role reversal. I just love the idea and can't wait to see how it plays out!
ReplyDeleteI actually feel like, aside from Metatron, and the hideous mess in I'm No Angel, the angels were treated pretty seriously this season. Moreso than some past seasons where we had Zachariah smirking through every scene, poor Hester and the "pull my finger" jokes, etc.
ReplyDeleteI think they don't let go of some of that because it's very popular with many viewers. They tried to ditch some of it and they couldn't come up with anything of value as a replacement. I do wish they'd tried to use Abaddon more and phased Crowley out...
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. Just to clarify, I said I would expect that the stories would be interconnected, and that saving Dean would be the basis for Sam's arc. In seasons when Dean was worried about Sam, there was always something else going on that was about Dean (examples: Deans issues with his father in season 2, his post Hell PTSD and new angel friends in season 4, unravelling the alpha/mother/purgatory/cas mystery in season 6, Purgatory in season 8). I just would expect that if saving Dean is Sam's story, that the story would be fleshed out more as it has been for Dean in the past.
ReplyDeleteI think Kripke started #7. I will never forget my disbelief for so much of season 3, that what should have been a serious subject (Dean going to Hell, Sam going dark), turned into, "Dean's having a threeway oh yeah!!! A cougar wants Sam EWW! Bela's so wild and hot...we hate her but she's so sexy and Sam has wet dreams about her! Dean has a son who is just like him lol lol lol! Ghostfacers lol lol lol!" They turned it around somewhat halfway through but it just never felt right.
ReplyDeleteThen almost to compensate, season 4 was backbreakingly depressing, almost too much so.
I'd also put #8 on Gamble more than anyone else, as she brought in all this nonsense like the Campbell family, only to dump them like spoiled food. She also had the ultimately pointless and bizarrely fetishized Soulless Sam story, which was then rewritten to become even more confusing (Cas' involvement) when they wanted to fire Misha.
I don't think there has been any genuine threat in terms of villains since Azazel in season 2. Abaddon could have been, but they didn't bother.
The real threat on SPN is, in my mind, the bad choices of the main characters, and consequences of those choices. Season 3, season 4, and the best part of season 9 (Dean's story) were all about this.
I do think Carver has his own weaknesses, and I think Singer is responsible for many of the flaws that have been shown in Kripke, Gamble, and Carver eras.
Thanks for the comments. I agree that Dean needs a character arc too, although I think we're already getting that with Dean. The Lisa/Ben story in season 6 was a character arc about Dean trying out the role father (in the end he decided he would just turn into John), his depression in season 8 dealt with this thoughts on hunting and his life in general, and this current arc is about him facing that dark repressed side of his character. I don't think we'll get final resolution for either Sam or Dean until the end of the series, but I'd like to see both characters continually explored and moving forward.
ReplyDeleteWhere
ReplyDeleteWhere was all this ire for the past 5 years when the stories were all about Sam and Dean had no part of the mytharc? Why wasn't this article written in season 6, or 7, or the second half of season 8 where Dean was nothing more than mother hen to Sam? Where was this article in the beginning of season 9 where it was all about Sam and Gadreel and Dean was there just to push the story line? Why is it that when Dean has a story, Sam fans cry unfair, and yet the years when Sam had the stories and Dean has nothing to do but support Sam, it was ok?
ReplyDeleteIf this was a fair article, it would understand and see that after 5 years of Dean revolving around Sam, it's time that Sam shows he loves and cares about Dean by supporting and being there for Dean just like Dean's been there to support Sam for the past 9 years.
I would love for the story to be Dean's for once. Sam had his stories, plenty of them.
Could we use better writing and story telling? Yes. But we Dean fans could also use one season where Dean isn't all about Sam.
I thought Sam had a pretty good arc in season 4, and one in season 5 too, although there were gaps. But I feel like the development ended at that point. I agree that the writing for Sam has been a trainwreck in the past couple of seasons. I wasn't even opposed to where I thought they were trying to go a lot of the time, but there was too much starting and stopping. Something would be introduced, never elaborated on or fleshed out further, and then later contradicted when the writers seemed to have a change of heart.
ReplyDeleteAlso agree with you that the moral, or point of all of this, hasn't been clear.
Yes to all this. Demon Dean has potential and Jensen gets to stretch some of those great acting chops of his.
ReplyDeleteI had a feeling some people would disagree on the Dean being evil part. ;-) Glad you enjoyed the article.
ReplyDeleteI would love this as long as the Dean character isn't destroyed. I know Carver isn't a big Dean fan, so there's always the worry that he'll go too far just to destroy the character he has no respect for.
ReplyDeleteYour post made me laugh. The writing for Cas has definitely been all over the place, although I think it was more stable this year. A little bumpy at times - but not bad enough to make my top 10 list. ;-)
ReplyDeleteWhy wasn't a review for season 9 posted after seasons 6 or 7? I'm not sure I understand the question. I never said Dean shouldn't have an interesting demon story - just that Sam needs character development too, and that the two leads should always be very present in the story.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your entire post. Thanks for commenting.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments. I agree. :-)
ReplyDeleteThe Lisa/Ben story was barely there, just busy work for Dean while the world revolved around soulless Sam. Season 8 had the great purgatory story which was cut off at the knees so that Sam could once again have the mytharc with the trials and Dean was reduced to hausfrau to take care of hero Sam.
ReplyDeleteDean hasn't had an arc since season 4, and that one was cut short and given to a secondary character so that Sam could play hero.
If you are serious about this show being fair to both characters, then maybe you can be fair in the assertion that if Sam had Dean's so called arcs for the past 5 years, I'm sure you'd be extremely unhappy.
Dean fans have been waiting forever for Dean to finally get something that's his own. And of course, now Sam must share in it because heaven forbid Dean not revolve around Sam.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree that this is the first time Dean has ever had the focus. I'm not arguing for something to be taken away from Dean - just for both leads to be very present in the main action of the story.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the review
ReplyDeleteSo let me summarize what fandom wants: 2 main characters have to have equally important stories
in each of 10 seasons, with equal screen presence, POV, characters growth. At
the same time, they should not argue, lie, act silly or dumb, lose the fight,
being thrown or pined against the wall, saved by support characters, outsmarted.
They have to have friends, but not too many and not too monstery, no romantic
relationship allowed. They can not be part of someone’s fight or straggle side story,
even if this story connected to their own. They have to show their love to each other
constantly, and sometime to angel as well. They have to be codependent, but not
too much, heroic, but not too powerful, and they have to talk about their feeling at the
end of every episode standing by Impala in the sunset. There are suppose to be MOTW episodes (because
its fun and a it’s a horror show with procedural element) but very few (because
it’s not fun anymore and it makes story disjoined). The show suppose to be
scary but not too dark, emotional but not depressing, with some humor but in
the right place and time.
It suppose to have one showrunner and the same writing team for all 10 years , otherwise end after 5 seasons.
Please, who knows this kind of TV show – let me know, I’ll watch the hell out of it. In the meantime I am going to continue with SPN despites all 10 biggest issues listed in review ( some of them I agree with btw, thanks)
The Cas in The End was not real. He was a lie from Zachariah. I do agree that the writing for human Cas in I'm No Angel was an abomination, but the Cas we saw in Heaven Can't Wait was the most believable Cas I'd seen in a long time.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Compared to a lot of seasons, especially last season (where they dropped in some sexytime flirting in the middle of an episode where he was programmed to murder), I didn't think it was that bad. I actually felt like Cas this season was, with the notable exception of episode 3, and parts of First Born, almost always in character.
ReplyDeleteThe angel storyline could have been used to create a good role for Sam.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Earlier this season I was actually expecting Sam to become connected more to the fallen angels storyline due to Gadreel and maybe even because of the grace thing. At the very least I expected the mark of Cain storyline to move into territory that would involve both of the brothers because of the history of Cain/Abel. Instead Sam didn’t even seem to be that hands-on in trying to figure out what the mark means. He must know it originated from Lucifer, right? Apparenty Sam was supposed to just worry while not actually achieving anything or even having any sort of connection to Dean. (This season clearly took inspiration from season 4, Dean and Sam had a lot of interaction back then despite their fights.)
Men of Letters could’ve been a way to give Sam something to do. I liked the more active take on Men of Letters that Henry had been advocating. I hate the fandom interpretation of Dean on a hunt while Sam researches at the bunker.
Now that Dean is a demon, I’d like them to address Sam’s history with demons and powers. I’ve had to kind of suspend belief that demons would let Sam be just because the whole Lucifer’s vessel thing fell through. During Kripke’s years it was established that demons were always interested in Sam even when he was just a child. Demons seemed to have a polarizing relationship with him because on one hand they mocked him but on the other hand they wanted to follow him.
Sam is a capable hunter! It should be absolutely ridiculous that people try to argue that Sam would have been a liability in a fight against Abaddon or Metatron so Dean was right to send Sam to the basement or to knock him out.
Dean fans have made many of these kinds of complaints in past seasons when Sam was the center of the mytharc and everything and everyone, most especially Dean, were only there to support Sam's plot and Sam's character development. And every time we said anything on this or other Samcentric sites like WFB, we were told that Dean is Sam's brother, therefore the story is about Dean as well by default.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that for the first time in the history of the show, Sam is playing the Dean role i.e. the one who has to look out for his brother and try to fix him. Why is that not good enough for Sam when, according to Sam fans on this very site, it was plenty good enough for Dean?
If you honestly believe that this show is about both brother equally, then I don't see how you can begrudge Dean having one measily season where he is the center of the action while Sam plays a support role. But if you object to that, then I can't possibly see how you can expect any of us to believe that you aren't pushing the continue samcentricity of the show.
I just think those of you who have been spoiled by having 9 years of The Sam Show (while claiming that if its about Sam, then it must be about Dean) can't stand even one season not being all about Sam and many and varied trials, tribulations and cosmic victimhood.
I understand that everyone in the fandom doesn't see the show the same way. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree that this is what is happening here.
ReplyDeleteUntil second half of S9, Sam always had pretty good arcs, but not so much character development. S4 Sam was kinda like S2 when he found out about John's last words, angry and distrusting. S5 he went back to be family again. The rest is just a sorry repeat of that loop. So whatever he went through, he had no permanent character growth. It's a big flaw but nothing just about this season. The solution is not another arc, but to give Sam a chance to show and 'say' his love to his brother, showing him he's learning from their cases and experiences, and 'talk', not just angry talk (the only time we get his POV), but talk when he's happy, worried, caring and proud.
ReplyDeleteYes, seems it was just a plot device!
I'm really hoping Carver will step down at the very least after he finishes his so called, "three year plan". Get somebody new in there.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything you mentioned! All my issues with the show have been listed.
ReplyDeleteYes! I'm sick of Meta.
ReplyDeleteNo, that's not true. For years we have been saying that we would be more than happy for Dean to have a mytharc if Sam was given a POV. We wanted Sam to stop being an object with no purpose except for Dean to go on about his feelings, while Sam sat silently in the corner or was sent out of the room while every other character talked to Dean. I hope Dean gets a great mytharc and not ONE chance to say how he feels about it. However, I know that Dean will get a great mytharc AND emo all over the place while Sam...Sam gets sent out of the room AGAIN.
ReplyDeleteWhat you want is for Dean to have the mytharc and the POV and for Sam to disappear. I think you're going to get it although I think you will also complain if Sam says more than three words in an episode.
Season 6-present has been about things happening to Sam, not about any actual characterization.
ReplyDeleteSeason 5 was a muddied characterization because Kripke was trying to patch up the damage he did to the character in season 4.
I put #8 and most of season six and seven on Singer. Somewhere in season six they took control of the budget away from SG. It was about that time that the Soulless!Sam part started to get rolled back, which left no place for the Campbell storyline. Season seven was under Singer's financial control from day one and midseason SG announced she was stepping down at the end of the season. Then Singer started doing the producers previews. I think a lot of seasons six and seven were because of the behind the screen issues.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I liked Soulless!Sam. I can see where the idea of Dean teaching SS to behave as if he had a soul then having to confront the ethics of returning Sam's damaged soul to a body that housed another sentient being had some real potential. I do realize that this is not a popular opinion.
Agreed! Plus the addition of Cas as a main character (which had not been the original plan) meant they had to spread characterization between Sam, Dean and Cas. With Dean and Cas bonding and no one really talking to Sam except a Dean who hadn't forgiven him, Sam's characterization got somewhat lost, IMHO.
ReplyDeletehe all ready destroy them both Sam in season 8 and Dean in season 8 and 9 well Dean was destroy in season 6 for me anyway but you know I will call this season Heartless and just really such you turn a character who keeped Bitching about stay human in season 4 and turn him into a demon well I say FU Carver and I done with it.
ReplyDeleteTrue. A solution would have been showing Sam with other people and defining who he was, but instead the show preferred to make him a victim and a dude in distress, and they've consistently refused to change this. Even stories that really should have been more about his choices, like not looking for Dean, got lost.
ReplyDeleteme too it was just bad and I just wanted too stop watching. I do not know why I still do it really hard too say but its now just for Jared and Jensen that's it.
ReplyDeletetrue too this all I just wonder why the writers still write for him at all or why Jared is still on the show it they still treat his character like shit.
ReplyDeleteTrue. I've never understood the show's total refusal post season four to let Sam interact with anyone other than Dean. Even season four doesn't give much Sam POV due to Kripke's telling his story "in the background" so Sam hid things from Dean and talked to Ruby about what he was doing off screen until the last 2 episodes.
ReplyDeleteI wish Sam had a friend (that didn't prefer Dean), kept a journal that is used as a voice over, had a dog to talk to. I'd take anything at this point that would let us hear why Sam does what he does.
yes it been the Dean show for years where have you been.
ReplyDeleteSeason 6 definitely had some noticeable changes halfway through. I do wonder what she had planned for the Campbells. I have no idea. I thought the whole thing ruined them and it makes me sad that Mary was related to them. Perhaps Gamble had more ideas for them that would have put them in a positive light.
ReplyDeleteSoulless Sam was an interesting idea, but I felt like it had almost nothing to do with Sam. When Sam returned, he just got the sickness stories, which they seem to do any time they don't have a story for him.
I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure of Gamble's view of Sam. I was watching It's A Terrible Life a few days ago, for the first time in years, and I was confused by Sam's characterization - someone who hated the 9-to-5, someone who yearned for hunting and physicality and killing bad guys and saving people with his brother. I get that this was all manipulation from Zachariah, but not only was this a Sam who seemed unfamiliar to me from most of the seasons, but it was a Sam who seemed extremely unfamiliar to me for this point in the storyline - by this point he was sick of the road, he was sick of Dean's lack of faith in him, and he wanted to prove his strength through killing Lilith.
I think Kripke, in the first few seasons, had the best handle on Sam. Few others have since.
Thanks for writing this. You make a lot of interesting points, and I agree with many of them, especially the lack of POV for Sam, the confused characterization for Sam, and the business and the huge tonal problems. The tonal problems have been there for a long time, but they're still distracting and damaging. The Cas/April story somehow being hilarious is something I will never understand.
ReplyDeletePlay to the show's strengths. This show works best a lighter, suspenseful, sometimes funny, often snarky monster hunt. Its foundation is in the character interactions, the brotherly relationships, and the boys-being-boys humor. This show has in recent years tried to tackle some issues that were much too dark and deep. Mental illness and associations with rape are two examples – and neither was handled properly. It’s also gone very dark, with season-long depression arcs, an attempt at a noir mood, and intensified fighting between Sam and Dean.
I feel like this ship has sailed, mostly in that the areas they've opened up are impossible to close. For instance, the show has repeatedly talked about the child abuse Dean and Sam suffered - this has haunted Dean his entire life, helped destroy his bonds with Lisa and Ben, and led him to the dark path he took this season. Until this is fully addressed, I don't think they can move on.
There's also a lot with Sam and Dean and how they interact that will be tough to get past for comedy or banter. I do wish we'd gotten more of it, especially during the periods when they were supposed to be getting along, but I don't know if we will anytime soon.
The show likes to say, "This is about brothers. The show is about brothers!" when they address fans, but they haven't known how to write a brother relationship in a long time. And J2 sometimes seem at a loss for how to deal with this.
I hope we get to see the most toxic parts of the brother bond burned away this season and they end up somewhere more healthy, and in a healthy place we see, not just buzzwords and one or two "brother" moments.
No what the fans want is the show to be true to it's roots and to what Kripke envisioned. Kripke said it best in Season One when talking about his vision for the show. His concept was to do a monster/creature movie a week instead of a traditional TV show. Yes the show can grow and move on but it can't lose sight of it's roots and it has.
ReplyDeleteMy point is we all want different things. Some fans watch only because of Cas, for example, and Cas wasn't around until season 4. Casual viewers need to be entertained, they want relate to the characters, they want laugh, cry, be scared. Hardcore fans dig deep , remember that one line about Grand Canyon 4 seasons ago and reaper canon from 2-1. Check the episodes rating: pretty much every episode has 6-7% hates, 60-70% awesomeness and in-between. It is impossible to make all of us happy. I loved Bad Boys, but I know a lot of fans hated it. I would love to see more episodes like this, but many would hate it.
ReplyDeleteWe (you and me and every poster here) can speak only from personal perspective. There is no such a thing - what fans want except may be having Sam and Dean in every episode. Story, structure wise - there is no agreement here and never will be.
We can Kick Carver as much as we want, complain and waine, but
Heck, San, Sam wasn't even really allowed to worry. Beyond a few comments here and there, we didn't get much from Sam re: the MOC or its effect on Dean, which is why the MOC story was largely a failure, IMO. It's hard to be worried about Dean and the Mark when no one else is worried!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what Carver's interpretation is of Sam. He seems to see Sam as a incapable, unwilling hunter, which is not true. I always thought the MOL was going to be a good angle b/c, IMO, the brothers are both hunters and scholars. Dean can research just as well as Sam, and Sam can hunt just as well as Dean. But other than a set, the MOL hasn't been used very well at all.
Now the story is focused on Dean and it's Sam's turn to be a supportive brother.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . that's fine and all, but if this season was anything to go by, Sam is NOT going to be a supportive brother. He's not going to have much of an opinion on anything happening to Dean. He will be in the background, doing and saying NOTHING!
That's the problem, and that's why Chris raised it in her review. If I thought Sam would actually get a POV about Dean's issues, I wouldn't be upset but I highly doubt he is b/c he didn't this year! He and Cas finally discussed Dean - in a very weak way might I add - in the 2nd to last episode. What is that? If Sam had taken on the MOC, Dean would have had numerous conversations with everyone about his fears, concerns, etc.
As I see it, the POV remains w/Dean whether he has the mytharc or not. I like Dean so I don't have a problem w/that, but the same does not occur w/Sam. When he has the mytharc is gets minimal POV. Each time Dean has had the mytharc (S4, S5, S9), he's also gotten plenty of POV, which is the correct way to tell a story. I just wonder why that never happens w/Sam.
And before someone says, "We get Sam's POV," I'm talking about a consistent POV (i.e., from the premiere to the finale). That regularly occurs w/Dean. Sam . . . not so much.
I've given up on the idea that Sam will ever get a friend beyond Dean. Sam will remain friendless and, subsequently, silent until the show ends.
ReplyDeleteI actually think is less than OK, but I agree w/your point.
ReplyDeleteGreat point about Sam's POV. When people disagree w/me about Sam getting a POV, I often point out how often Sam's words have different meanings to different people. That really shouldn't be the case. Practically everything Sam says is debated b/c of the controversial nature of his words or the ambiguity. Heck, even his facial expressions are discussed and debated. That never happens to Dean b/c Dean gets what Sam doesn't: actual dialogue that explicitly explains his feelings, POV, etc. Why can't Sam get the same?
ReplyDeleteIt's like ever since Kripke chose to write Sam in the background and as a mystery in S4, he's been written that way for the most part. Or the most interesting parts of his arcs - the emotional beats - are shelved for numerous episodes and then resolved in the finale. It's really ridiculous the way his character is handled, IMO.
I feel as though Sam's emotional journey has been ignored/neglected since about S2 actually. It just got progressively worse over the years.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree on this. The decision to show Dean's POV first in season three had horrible repercussions on Sam's emotional development. I'm pretty sure the idea was to show what Dean was going through, then switch to Sam and show how his desperation led him to use his powers and go dark. Mystery Spot was, I think, the beginning of that arc. But the writers strike hit and Sam's side never got shown and instead of saving Dean, Dean went to Hell. Then Kripke made the disastrous (from a showing what Sam is going through aspect) of telling Sam's story "in the background". So all we saw were how Sam's actions effected Dean. By all rights, the tight Dean focus in season four should have switched to a tight Sam focus in season five, but that didn't happen. As I said earlier, the addition of Cas meant they had another character to develop. And for some reason, the writers losing that season and a half of Sam POV had them decide that it really wasn't necessary. They had Dean for emotion. Cas to go through learning to be human and Sam to be told he was bad and awful and terrible and then throw himself into the Cage. After that, well it was downhill from there until now, Sam gets possessed, is used to kill Kevin and has absolutely nothing to say about it for like 10 episodes and then he only has one line saying he has nightmares. And the writers seem to think that is all he needs and turn to the really interesting things, like Metatron ignoring the Evil Overlord list.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I don't think this is going to change. The last writer who cared at all about Sam was Sera Gamble. So I expect this to remain the Dean show, now with added Dean mytharc*, Cas fighting to regain his grace and Sam being pretty, pretty wallpaper.
*For the record, I'm looking forward to Dean having the mytharc. Or at least I'm looking forward to the potential of Dean having the mytharc. If Dean can be evil and demonic and do really bad things, I'm in. What I expect is that suddenly we will discover that contrary to everything we have been told, demons are actually fine people, deeply misunderstood, who are working for the betterment of the universe. Sam will be an incredibly selfish person who wants to give Dean back his soul and make him human while Demon!Dean will be going around rescuing puppies and kittens, healing the blind, feeding the hungry, comforting the ill and proving that he can rise above it all.
*That's the problem, and that's why Chris raised it in her review. If I
ReplyDeletethought Sam would actually get a POV about Dean's issues, I wouldn't be
upset but I highly doubt he is b/c he didn't this year! He and Cas
finally discussed Dean - in a very weak way might I add - in the 2nd to
last episode. What is that? If Sam had taken on the MOC, Dean would have
had numerous conversations with everyone about his fears, concerns,
etc.*
I think that's what most folks don't quite understand when we complain we don't get any Sam POV or don't really "know" who Sam is, even after nine seasons of the series. Just even a TINY small bit of info, we can't answer firmly about Sam. I can look at Dean and name at least five of his favorite bands. I'm not even sure what KIND of music Sam likes, let alone what bands/singers he's into. I mean, that's Character Fleshing 101 stuff. If we could get an equal amount of how Sam feels about these things, esp. without voicing those concerns and being brow beaten by Dean into apologizing for feeling that way, I'm all for Dean having the mytharc and needing everyone to come save his ass.
Thank God I'm not the only one who thought "The End" was a massive mind trip by Zachariah in order to get a specific reaction from Dean!!
ReplyDeleteExactly! We just want a consistent POV for Sam. That's all. There's quite a bit I feel I don't know about Sam b/c the writers haven't take the opportunity to flesh him out. Sadly, he feels much more like a plot point than an actual character.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, remember in SI when Sam declared he was filled w/rage and anger all the time. That episode was the only time we actually saw that anger and rage. He didn't display it before the episode or after the episode. For whatever reason, the writers wanted him to say he was angry so he was angry for the ONE episode. Oh, and in S7 when he was suddenly guilt-free. What was that about? Sure, Sam's attitude was pretty healthy but it would have been nice to see his journey to that point or to get something other than a brief line of dialogue. When the spoilers for that episode came out, many speculated that Sam AND Dean would be greatly affected, but it wasn't convenient to the plot for Sam to be affected so he suddenly had no guilt. Okay . . . .
It's crap like that that bothers me about the writing when it comes to Sam. I honestly don't feel Dean is written as inconsistently as Sam.
I don't expect to get much POV from Sam either. It's clear - at least to me - the writers aren't at all interested in Sam or what he thinks/feels about anything, not even the things that happen to him.
ReplyDeleteI know some think we should be satisfied w/that line about Kevin in the finale but it was "too little, too late" IMO. We were . . . what . . . 10 episodes from the actual incident. Couldn't Sam have told Cas about his nightmares? Why did we have to wait until the finale to get anything from Sam on the possession? We went from Gadreel being a "psycho angel" to a "friend" with NO actual dialogue or development?!?!?! Why did we have to wait until the episode before the mid-break before Sam mentioned feeling off or whatever he said about losing time?!?!!? Haven't these writers ever heard for building up to a story and laying the foundation?
Sam is, IMO, severely neglected when it comes to what I consider to be the most important aspect of this show: his character development and emotional journey. It's either flat out ignored or given minimal attention.
Well, since Revolution's been cancelled, they could always give Edlund a shot. I mean, why not?
ReplyDeleteI guess for me I don't consider these full arcs because they feel to me as though they've ended...not completed. When I say I want resolution I don't mean that it's all over and Dean has no issues left at all. What I'm talking about is... (I'll use Dean's self image issues to illustrate my point rather than literal episode examples.) After a season of exploring Dean's belief that he's worthless, I want him to come out the other end with a better self image. I want Dean to face the next dire situation willing to look at a situation and consider other options than the quick and dirty "I'll sacrifice myself because I'm worthless." My biggest issue is that having the characters never change or grow can make the writers lazy and the storytelling suffers because it becomes repetitious. It *has* become repetitious. So much so that it's acknowledged in the show. On more than one occasion one or the other of the brothers has said some version of 'have we learned nothing'. I can't help but thing that if the writers look at the past 9 seasons and make a list of decisions and reactions the boys will not duplicate it will be a good first step to freshening things up.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. It's frequently because an actor or character is a fan favorite. But in the first few examples that pop into my head... it weakens the show. Usually the character is designed for a specific story and the writers have to work so hard to get the character to fit on the general canvas that other aspects of the show suffers. Don't get me wrong...frequently it's actors I like, and most of the time I liked the character when they first arrived. But most of the time, as a fan, I'm left feeling the show runner should have cut the character loose when the story has run its course.
ReplyDeleteThank you, I thought I was alone in this sentiment that season 9 was quiet good for the most part.
ReplyDeleteYes, Metatron was a parody of a villain. Why? Because he thought consuming all fiction humans ever created would empower him to rule over them. Too bad that he did not consider that fiction an art form and art can only imitate life.
Nice try Marv. Glad you did not succeed, rot in your cell for all eternity.
It astounds me that they could write a demon/hell story for Dean and not loop in, or even just address, Sam's past history with demons and the boy king legacy, but I have a feeling they're going to do just that. They still haven't answered whether Sam came out of the cage with any demon blood powers.
ReplyDeletePlease do not confuse your personal likes and dislikes with what the fandom wants, you are in no position to speak for the entire Supernatural fandom.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Great description what the "fandom" wants. Hilarious and straight to the point.
ReplyDeleteThe writing for Dean has tended to reset him a few times, and I think that might be what you're getting at? For example, Dean's season 5 character arc was in part about learning to accept Sam as an adult and letting him sacrifice himself. But yet we're dealing with those issues all over again. If that's it, then yes, I agree. I guess the writers don't want to get too far off from where the show started, but it seems like as the characters grow they could deal with new issues.
ReplyDeleteEdlund has said that his time on Supernatural is done. People tweeted him begging him to come back but he said that he's on a different path or something now. It sucks.
ReplyDeleteI have nothing against Meta when it's done right. But lately we just have Meta rammed down our throats for no reason.
ReplyDeleteFor me all the problems are at the feet of a showrunner that does not know how to keep the writers on track with the plot. Carver has written some of my favorite ep in years past, but is out of his depth as head of it all. The last two years have been jerky and unfocused and makes me wish for some Divine intervention...ERIC come home to your baby. ;)
ReplyDeleteYes, I want Hunting Monsters and The Family Business, brother love. Family is what got them to season 8 and Carver is tearing that apart and not slowly.
ReplyDeleteEdlund could get very dark, but I have less problems with that because he followed up on what he started and what he started would mostly last for only an episode.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of a few examples here when I made my original comment about this issue. A big one was the Gamble-era tendency to overreach and set up of the story to really commit to telling a story that was too dark and complex for the show to handle. For example, in season 6, there were warnings about how Sam would be so emotionally damaged by Hell that he would be drooling on the floor if the wall broke. It wasn't hard to see ahead and realize that Sam's mental break wasn't going to done justice. There was also the connection made between Sam's experience in Hell with rape - which I'd noticed in both Gamble and Edlund episodes.
Other examples in which the show got too dark - but did follow though even though it got to be too much - include Dean's season 7 depression and the current ongoing brother fighting.
I thought that was what this forum was for...personal likes and dislikes..and you can put me in the Bec666 room.
ReplyDeleteThank YOU.
Maybe it finished first because TVD has gotten awful..just saying.
ReplyDeleteGadreel was treated more seriously, but that may have been because Jared set the tone for his characterization and was probably thinking of the way angels used to be portrayed. The angel characters that Ross-Leming and Buckner created were very campy.
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a good point about how the show got darker earlier, but I saw the early episodes as more of an attempt to tell of a story of a family that loved each other a lot, but that became dysfunctional because of the tragedy of the nature of Mary's death. Although John was written inconsistently in season 1, I thought he was shown to really love Sam and Dean and try to be supportive in his own way. I put Dean's issues as much on being scarred by Mary's death as John's upbringing. I thought he was using Sam as a substitute for Mary.
ReplyDeleteCompletely in agreement with your last paragraph!
I have Dean in my living room, now here is Sam for you.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IK2WOH2/ref=pe_850210_118922620_em_1p_0_ti
You mean how Dean wasn't present in the main action of the story in the last half of Season 8? That was all about Sam and Dean just revolved around Sam. Jensen even had extra days off for the Season 8 finale. Dean fans were told by Sam fans that what happened to one brother happened to the other brother, so if it was good enough for Dean then, according to Sam fans, then it's good enought for Sam now.
ReplyDeleteToo often Dean in the 9 years of SPN hasn't been the focus of a storyline, so much of this show has been all about Sam.
ReplyDeleteThanks Rehabber
ReplyDeleteYou make valid points, I should have said what 'some fans' want. Most of the die hard fans I know feel as I do. The show has lost that gritty edge that made it so good and has turned into a soap opera with monsters. Don't get me wrong, I still watch every week and still like it a whole lot. Just not sure I love it anymore. I'm hoping Season 10 will change that.
ReplyDeleteNeither are you, yet you did. Hmmmm
ReplyDeleteSam's arcs get to come to completion, while any storylines Dean has had have been dropped or ignored. Sam's hell and hell memories/ramifications played out over at least 2 seasons, Dean's hell PTSD lasted maybe a couple of episodes, same with any ramifications from Purgatory. Dean is told to "suck it up" and Dean was literally told that he's no longer part of the story when Dean was replaced by Cousin Oliver in the mytharc. This doesn't happen to Sam.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, especially about Season 8. Once Purgatory was dropped, Dean had no storyline. He was just there to support Sam and take care of Sam.
ReplyDelete"Dean fans have made many of these kinds of complaints in past seasons when Sam was the center of the mytharc and everything and everyone, most especially Dean, were only there to support Sam's plot and Sam's character development. And every time we said anything on this or other Samcentric sites like WFB, we were told that Dean is Sam's brother, therefore the story is about Dean as well by default.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that for the first time in the history of the show, Sam is playing the Dean role i.e. the one who has to look out for his brother and try to fix him. Why is that not good enough for Sam when, according to Sam fans on this very site, it was plenty good enough for Dean?
If you honestly believe that this show is about both brother equally, then I don't see how you can begrudge Dean having one measily season where he is the center of the action while Sam plays a support role. But if you object to that, then I can't possibly see how you can expect any of us to believe that you aren't pushing the continue samcentricity of the show.
I just think those of you who have been spoiled by having 9 years of The Sam Show (while claiming that if its about Sam, then it must be about Dean) can't stand even one season not being all about Sam and many and varied trials, tribulations and cosmic victimhood."
THIS!
I second that about the Campbells I would LOVE to know what the original plan was and why it changed. I didn't hate them; I wanted to see "other" Hunters and how they handled things
ReplyDeleteThat Two Men and a Baby episode showcased the difference between the way Dean instinctively handled the job (protect the innocent baby from growing up to be a monster) and every single Campbell on the show (use the baby for bait to catch the Alpha Shifter).
I also wondered why Sam was not hunting with the Campbells any longer Why was Dean so devalued (I mean HUH)?
I had lots of questions. And the only Campbell I hated was Christian, because (HUH) he was so nasty to Dean.
Why does that astound you? Never in Season 8 did the show bring up Dean being a vampire.
ReplyDeleteTo fix the brother bond, the show needs to address not just Sam's issues, but Dean's too. For example, the show needs to address what Sam said to Dean when he was lashing out at Dean in The Purge. We all know that Sam was wrong when he said that Dean only sacrifices when others get hurt, we know that Dean has sacrificed a lot when he is the one that gets hurt (see Season 9's Bad Boys) and we know that Sam was wrong when he said that Dean does more bad than good. We've seen it for 9 years that Dean does more good than bad. Sam is just as much to blame for the toxic parts of the relationship as Dean, it's not just Dean's fault.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree; I want Dean to fight like a somofabitch NOT to be evil.
ReplyDeleteHe was being dosed with the Mark and the First Blade and never just destroyed someone (I know the kill of the serial killer crazy deputy in Ghostfacers3 was controversial but my opinion is those guys faked being supernatural and brought in the Supernatural cops who took care of the problem; what was controversial to me was that Sam looked shocked but actually said nothing to try to understand Dean's stance on the issue at all.)
You seem to have forgotten Sam murdering the nurse just to drink her blood in Season 4; that to me was the most shocking thing ever done by either character. There really was no comeback for that in my mind and it's never been addressed.
Just kind of God Forgives and they were on the airplane getting out of the chapel.
I would be curious about super-powered Dean: how will they handle it? I think Crowley will be trying to make Dean his buddy and Dean will just be um...no.
I wish this article had been more balanced, instead of mainly about Sam because it comes across as being just concerned about making the show all about Sam. There are issues about the storytelling for Dean, but the author seems unconcerned about those. Dean hasn't really had his own role in the mytharc that hasn't been dropped for many seasons now. I hope Dean's storyline continues past a few episodes and isn't just dropped or ignored like most of his other storylines have been treated, or like issue #10, the show needs to drop the "Dean isn't smart schtick" show that Dean is smart and stop using Dean as the one Sam expositions to, like the MoL, Sam is the "brains" and Dean is just the "brawn."
ReplyDeleteYou are terrific. You just said everything damn thing I ever think about all the complaining about a show that I love in all its weird permutations. Thank you SO MUCH.
ReplyDeleteMay be. But that only means TVD gotten even more awful then SPN on its 9th season. Everything is relative in this world.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with you here. Show has changed, evolved and I don't think it will ever be that it was before. This ship has sailed and we have to move on.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, I don't think we have to stop discussing, critisise
I do not disagree with that at all.
ReplyDeleteWow, I never ever got Sam as a substitute for Mary. I thought Dean filled the Mother role in the Winchester family. It is SO interesting to me that you got that out of the show! John's last speech to Dean in In My Time of Dying to me was directly saying that Dean took care of both John and Sam and that John realized it was wrong.
ReplyDeleteOr are you saying Dean used Sam in place of Mary for emotional sustenance?
I also wondered if Dean actually SAW Mary on the ceiling in the Pilot; he was standing at the door when the fire broke out.
For me John was so damaged as a character after Something Wicked. It wasn't just that he used an unknown Dean and Sam as bait for the shtriga, it was the way he yelled at Dean when the plan failed and Sam nearly got taken. John had left Dean with a shotgun that did not have the right ammo; we don't even know if JOHN had the right ammo. I believed that John loved his kids. It's just he was more moved by his need for revenge. Wow we just see things differently.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This list is obviously my opinion, but I didn't focus on the storytelling for Dean as being one of this season's biggest problems, as I did with Sam, mainly because I don't considered the writing for Dean and his MoC storyline as being the trainwreck that the writing for Sam has been lately.
ReplyDeleteWith that said though, issues 1 and 3 were about Dean as well as Sam. With issue 1, there were complaints last year that Sam didn't go to Purgatory too, and then later in the year, that Dean didn't participate in the trials. While I think the two stories in the end pretty much balanced each other out, a better approach would have been to pace out strong storylines for each of them throughout the season. By seeming to allow only one Winchester story at a time, it means one of the two is always going to left out. With issue 3, I had more recent examples for Sam because the fandom seemed to struggle with understanding his point of view more than they did with Dean.
Issue 4 is about Dean's story, and advocating for a strong, meaty storyline for Dean, and most of these issues are character-neutral.
As I've said, I suspect you will get Dean the wonderful not going evil or doing anything that can even remotely be considered bad.
ReplyDeleteAs to the nurse. Sam was exorcising demons and leaving the hosts alive. Dean told him to cut that stuff out and go back to killing both the demon and the host. Sam and Dean now rely on Ruby's knife (and oh the irony that a demonic knife that kills people is acceptable but demonic powers that don't are taboo) in almost every case. No one even tries exorcism to get rid of the demon and keep a person alive. Dean and Sam (I'm not happy about that either) have tortured demons to find Lisa and Ben. They have imprisoned Crowley and his "moderately successful literary agent out of New York". Having the nurse"come out" was shocking, but the fact that we don't see the hosts does not mean that Sam and Dean aren't killing people and that if Sam did develop the ability to exorcise them again, without resorting to the demon blood, Dean would still call it freaky and weird and order Sam to go back to killing. Because that's what he did when he thought Sam was using his natural powers and knew nothing of the demon blood drinking.
Because Dean becoming a vampire was a one-off episode. Sam's demon connections launched the apocalypse. But I agree that the show should have referenced Dean's vampire connection for continuity. Just not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison.
ReplyDeleteWe'll have to agree to disagree about the lack of storylines, especially ones that actually get completed, for Dean. I believe it has been sorely lacking for many years now.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to your response about issue 1, Sam may not have gone to Purgatory, but he did have a storyline, the Sam/Ameila storyline, so Sam had one at the beginning of Season 8, as did Dean, but the last half of Season 8, only Sam had a storyline.
What I meant was that the trauma of losing Mary left him a very lonely boy with a strong need for family. Because his father wasn't as available, he channeled all of his needs to rebuild a family toward Sam.
ReplyDeleteI agree that In My Time of Dying clearly had John saying that Dean took care of the family, that Dean was the "mother" role, it was even said that Dean was the peace keeper in the family.
ReplyDeleteNot just Something Wicked, but we also learned that John took Sam's running away out on Dean in, I believe, Dark Side of the Moon.
I also thought that was weird that Dean was upset over saving the human and getting rid of the demon. I did not see what was wrong with that and Ruby told Sam he did not even need the blood to do that. The blood drinking was bad and turned Sam into a addict.
ReplyDeleteThey did use the vampire cure in a couple of eps.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more w/you! The train wrecks (IMO) these last two seasons have been lay solely at the feet of Carver. He is clearly, IMO, out of his element in running this show.
ReplyDeleteThere are character arcs and there are storylines. The show tends to eventually tie up all of the storylines:
ReplyDelete- Dean went to Hell. Dean got out of Hell.
- Sam went to Hell. Sam got out of Hell.
- Dean went to Purgatory. Dean got out of Purgatory.
- Sam was soulless. Sam got his soul back.
The show is less good about bringing character arcs to a satisfactory conclusion. For example, Dean still has his issues with seeing himself as a torturer.
My argument in this article is that Sam hasn't had a character arc since season 5, so there are no current character arcs left open to wrap up.
I don't think Dean was upset that Sam was saving lives; I think he was legitimately worried about what using the powers would do to Sam. He was very worried about Sam's soul in S4.
ReplyDeletePlus, Castiel threatened to kill Sam if Sam continued using the powers so naturally Dean wanted Sam to stop.
So b/c it happened to Dean, it should happen to Sam?
ReplyDeleteAs a bi-bro fan, I don't want either brother left out of the action, which is all Chris is saying. Neither brother should be shoved off to the side while the other has a plot.
I will agree that in the 2nd half of S8, Dean had nothing to do but he, at least, got a POV. Sam didn't even get that. Honestly, nothing would have changed if Sam had NOT been present this year. That's sad and is unacceptable for this BI-BRO fan. I like both brothers equally and would like to see both get a POV and a part of the mytharc.
Flipping your second sentence to say that "if Sam is your favorite or if you dislike Dean", those fans, and there are a number of them posting here, who are saying its not fair now, but it was all fair and a-okay when it was happening to Dean. I find it interesting it wasn't a problem when it happened to Dean, but now it's an issue, now that it's happening to Sam.
ReplyDeleteWe'll have to agree to disagree because I think Sam has had what you call "character arcs" too. I think at the very least he had one in Season 8 with Amelia.
ReplyDeleteThey used it once in Season 9 (the Jody episode), but the show never brought it up in Season 8, which is the season with Benny in it.
ReplyDeleteSam wasn't even really allowed to worry. Beyond a few comments here and there, we didn't get much from Sam re: the MOC or its effect on Dean, which is why the MOC story was largely a failure, IMO. It's hard to be worried about Dean and the Mark when no one else is worried!
ReplyDeleteI agree! Unfortunately it seems that Carver hasn’t heard of Hitchcock’s bomb theory. He went for surprise instead of suspense. Thus Sam had to be kept in the dark. He didn’t have anything else going on so the inactivity regarding trying to figure out the mark was even more glaring. I think they tried to use the brothers’ rift as a convenient excuse for Sam not to be involved in what is happening to Dean. It’s true that Sam wouldn’t try to push Dean but they could’ve done more than just worried looks or a couple of comments like you said!
I thought the MOL would be a good story b/c it would expand the brothers' world, and establish both brothers as hunters and scholars.
The Men of Letters could be a great way to achieve a balance between the supernatural and a more safe life. They could make bigger moves instead of racing to put out fires.
I'm not sure how Carver views Sam. He seems to see Sam as a incapable, unwilling hunter, which is not true.
Carver has had Sam overpowered so many times now that in a way it’s easy to see why some viewers thought Sam would have just been a hindrance to Dean in a fight against Abaddon or Metatron. It shouldn’t be that way though, that wasn’t Kripke’s legacy.
I think Amelia was intended to be one, but message of what it meant, in terms how it affected Sam's character, was lost. I'm guessing that whatever Carver planned when he started the season was dropped midway due to fan backlash, or else maybe it wasn't but the point was just horribly communicated.
ReplyDeleteAnd the whole trials purifying him bit! I’m inclined to believe that there is still something left but Sam has suppressed that side of him. Conveniently Gadreel had no comments. Maybe Crowley could shed some light to the situation particularly if he still wants to get Sam’s blood.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know, but if it had not been the drinking of the blood, would Cas have been worried. I never understood what the problem was other than that. I had very mixed emotions about that whole arc. I thought Sam was doing a good thing....OTHER than drinking blood and that was a big OTHER. lol
ReplyDeleteI don't mind stuff like "See you next season" (Alpha vamp) but I don't like Metatron and the convention episode back in season 5, etc. Chuck I didn't mind (I kinda enjoyed 4x18 minus the fact there were Supernatural books - meh, and I loved Chuck in "The End"), but not that dredded Sam fangirl (what was her name?) that kidnapped him. She was just weird.
ReplyDeleteI really don't like that writing team. They're the new Dabb and Loflin. Adam Glass isn't favorable with me either. He pushed Garth on me WAY too often and made him a bigger character than he should have been they way he acts (Garth acting like Bobby? WTF).
ReplyDeleteDabb and Loflin aren't as bad as they used to be compared to the other writers we have currently, but that's not saying much. I do believe they write slightly better apart.
Mine was 4x19 When Adam's mother got dragged under the bed. That and Sam at Jessica's grave nightmare in 1x02 were the only times I jumped. But there was lots of great dark, freaky, creepy scenes in the first couple seasons and even up to Season 7.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I remember that but I thought it was introduced in season six by Eric Kripke, who was not handling the day-to-day-operations but was still around. When he fully left in season 7 it felt like they needed to wrap the story up because it was a loose end but not really conceived by Gamble, similar to the Campbell storyline that got sloppily wrapped up in season six.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why I think, that the Campbell storyline is Kripke´s because it fits his "It´s always about the family"-mantra for supernatural.
So I was drawing the conclusion that every sloppy wrapped up storyline wasn´t Gamble´s because she felt no desire to wrap it up neatly, as it happens very often on other tv shows as well.
Well Kripke started the show with Sam (pretty much literally). It's amazing how far the show has fallen.
ReplyDeleteI didn't like Dean and Sam's grandfather either after he wanted Sam and Dean killed. Before then I liked him fine enough.
ReplyDeleteI think Christian was nasty cause he was possessed?
I feel the same. I wish though that when they let a character go they wouldn't have to kill them all the time. There are other ways of getting rid of characters and leaving the possibility for them to show up in the future if a proper storyline for them pops up.
ReplyDeleteYeah it's ironic, cause Carver was in my top 3 writers back in Season 4 and 5. As showrunner he's fallen so hard, even with episodes he writes himself. The way he writes now it feels like this Carver is an imposter.
ReplyDeleteHaha, I totally agree. I haven't really been happy with Castiel's story since the end of Season 5. Season 4 and Season 5 were the best of Cas. I miss them taking his character more seriously and the whole rebelling story to save humanity. They could still make him fun - not understanding references for example - because it made sense for an angel not to have watched those movies, etc.
ReplyDeleteSo true about The End. The Castiel in The End was buried in darkness and depression, but it was still obvious it was Cas.
I am looking forward to Demon Dean, as I LOVED Feral Dean. Although Sam has been proactive in getting to Dean, in Time After Time he and Jody figured out how to save Dean. Of course then there is season 8 where he could not be bothered to even look. So with Carver at the controls there is no telling which Sam will be in season 10.
ReplyDeleteDo you mean "Do You Believe In Miracles?" (the season finale). Cause Cas was still human in "Heaven Can't Wait" and I didn't think that episode was quite right for Cas's character.
ReplyDeleteI liked Cas the best in "Do You Believe In Miracles" and the episode where he and Sam interacted a lot.
I always took "The End" as an alternate universe. In an alternate universe characters can be slightly off. I always took it as a possibility for being real in some way.
ReplyDeleteOh jeez yes. I mean Sam got knocked out and choked a lot in the past, but I get the feeling this season there was a running gag between the writers. It's NOT funny writers!
ReplyDeleteExactly! It wasn't about the results of Sam using his powers. It was about the possible consequences. That's what worried Dean.
ReplyDeleteI think Cas's worry was that Sam was using powers stemming from demons/evil period - though the act of drinking blood of anything can be considered evil/sinful in itself.
ReplyDeleteOn this show having evil powers can infect people. I mean most of the special children were already kinda messed up but a lot got darker after learning of their abilities and being able to use them.
Yeah they had opportunities to have Sam at least talk to Bobby or something, but they never took it.
ReplyDeleteI find they rush and push character story lines to the background for both Sam AND Dean depending on the season.
ReplyDeleteBasically Sam needs a serious, well made character to be friends with (and ONLY friends), the writers need to stop pushing character archs to the background and dropping them (Dean and Hell, Dean in Purgatory, Sam and Hell, Sam's reaction to possession, etc.), they need to stop chickening out (Sam not completing the trials, etc.) and they need to stop using the brothers constantly fighting as a drama source (let them be brothers occasionally at least).
I'm not sure why Cas was worried, but I agree that it wasn't a bad thing Sam was doing (i.e., sending souls to Hell and saving the hosts).
ReplyDeleteWell, that's not what I'm saying so why not address me instead of everyone else?
ReplyDeleteAll I'm saying is both . . . BOTH brothers should get POV and a part of the mytharc. If you disagree, that's fine.
Yeah I hate how they're always resetting the characters. They make progress then revert. I can understand in certain situations, but when will we ever get over the "Sam's not a hunter, he wants to be normal" storyline? Haven't Dean and Sam both realized several times that they aren't cut out for normal?
ReplyDeleteOther times they confuse the characters it seems. Sometimes Dean's all for saving a monster, other times Sam is. They can almost never agree on this, but they're always switching sides. Decide if you're going to make them both accept "nice" monsters or neither will, or one will. Stop going back and forth.
I agree, aside from the trials, they've done a decent job with wrapping storylines.
ReplyDeleteSam's been at the center of the story for 8 years, but Dean's been the focus for that long too.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm hoping this season Sam is the focus and Dean is at the center. (Sam trying to save Dean and at the same time having a lot of focus on what his character is thinking).
I always assumed Sam didn't get any power back after going to Hell because Sam didn't have his psychic abilities or anything. I always assumed it dried up after Azazel died. Wow I haven't written Azazel in a while. I miss those days.
ReplyDeleteCarver IS a Dean fan and he's not a fan of Sam's. Wasn't it Carver himself that said something about not really caring about what Sam's doing? It was in some interview. Also, wasn't it him that wrote the first episode that started the whole Sam claiming to not look for Dean in Season 8 which led to all the annoying fighting?
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about it. If Dean for some reason goes flat out evil and has suppressed memories/emotions I could see it going long term - or half a season. With emotion/memories hmmm not sure if that could go the long haul.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I really want the show to focus on Sam for at least a few episodes while Dean goes flat out evil because it's out of his control. This is coming from a Dean fan who 2 seasons ago would have considered this storyline a nightmare.
Maybe it's changed cause Supernatural has been turning into a nightmare for me already. lol I just want some badass dark writing like the old days.
I'm honestly not sure Cas WAS worried. That was before Cas learned to think for himself. He was on Sam is the "boy with the demon blood" and is an abomination train. Cas was also still a good soldier for heaven. I kind of thought the higher ups, told Cas that Sam using his powers was bad and to tell Dean that if Sam didn't stop using them, the angels would stop him. Since the angel end game actually involved Sam USING his powers to free Lucifer I thought the angels were using what Sam was doing to drive and even bigger wedge between him and Dean. Then Dean would play his part as Michael. Cas didn't know the ins and outs of all this until after he was sent to angel camp. He was literally just following orders. Orders that he thought were what God wanted.
ReplyDeleteI edit an earlier statement. Well he was worried because the higher ups were telling him he should be. Or maybe it was more of a warning than anything.
ReplyDeleteWhat interview?
ReplyDeleteOK I can see that, had not thought of his power coming from a Demon but of course it did when he was a baby.
ReplyDeleteThat is what really bothered me, Sam did NOT say he did not look for Dean, he just said nothing when Dean asked him, did you look for me, Sam. He could have said yes but found nothing and season 8 would not have gone as the worse season for me. When they took everything I loved about Sam away and made him into a stranger that had not ALWAYS done everything to save his brother, I was crushed.
ReplyDeleteAnd that how much Carver does not care about Sam he did this too him. Eric K would never had done that NEVER!
ReplyDeleteI like the girl she did not need too die Dean killed her too killed his own family WOW he was under that worm thing but still he killed her.
ReplyDeleteand that's what heartbreaking because that's what got me into the show in the 1st place Sam story in season 1 and 2 was great not knowing what was happening too him was cool and then season 3 they forgot about it and and only alitte bit in season 4 and 5 and then nothing after season 6 wall paper that's it and hell I love soulless Sam I miss him that was great.
ReplyDeleteGood point! Cas probably didn't have an independent thought about what Sam was doing at all. His bosses told him Sam had to be stopped so that's all he told Dean.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Carver has really done a great disservice to Sam, IMO, these last two years.
ReplyDeleteI really think there needs to be more interaction between Team Free Will. I love having Cas, Sam and Dean together on the screen. Also, can we focus on Castiel's character arcs, I mean, his character and storyline went through such sharp events (purgatory, being human, stealing grace, etc), I want to see more of his story, from his perspective. It provides this very intense dynamic to the plot, overall. I really want to know more about his intentions, like, what does he really wants? He serves Heaven as he feels obligated to do so, also he really cherished being human but in the finale he states that he just wants to be an angel. So, yeah, I want the show to really shed more light on his character and his actions which his character really needs. So more Cas please.
ReplyDeleteYeah I was sad when she died, but it was out of Dean's control.
ReplyDeleteI will add to this that S4's story was about Sam's downward slide, which resulted in Lucifer being released. Dean's arc was used to introduce angels into the story. I saw no PTSD at all in S4, and only two episodes of it after his return from Purgatory in S8. S5's story was about the road to Sam's redemption and Dean learning to trust Sam, demon blood and all (i.e., Dean was a support character).
ReplyDeleteI agree that Sam really had no purpose in S9, and that was because S9 was used to make Cas a lead character. That is why he had a separate storyline apart from the Winchesters. It is too early to tell what will happen with the MoC story, which was not introduced until Ep. 11. I don't think the writers even knew where they were going with that and only decided to run with it when it was well-received by the fans. I fear, though, that the whole MoC story will be used to make Crowley a fourth lead, while the Winchesters are again put in the background.
As I see it, though, it's not a matter of Sam having no POV. The writers need to decide who or what they want Sam to be as a character. Sam has been a different Sam version since the end of his story in Swan Song. While this may have given Jared some acting challenges, it has made Sam's undependable as a character, and especially undependable as a narrator of the story being told. Viewers cannot depend on a character, when that character is something different every season. The writers are doing the same thing with Cas. His story ended at the end of S4, so the viewers are getting different versions of Cas every season.
With Dean now being Demon!Dean, that leaves Crowley as the most dependable character on the show, and that is because Crowley keeps his word. Viewers can depend on that.
Personally, for all of these reasons, I am certain that S10 will be no different than S8 and S9 in that the Winchesters story (whatever it is) will be the B-plot. That's what it was in S9, with no resolution to anything brought up in their "internal arcs" or the big spat between them.
I think I would have to disagree as I love how Carver is actually exploring the interdependent toxicity between both the brothers. Sam/Amelia arc plus Dean not respecting (any) decision of Sam's and not considering him as an equal really tells how it's about time that Dean deals with his deep seated insecurities and issues. Sam was pretty content with Amelia, unlike Dean/Lisa. Dean's self abusive tendencies were most magnified in this season as he lost one reason to live for, that was his little brother. Protecting his little brother was always his "job" and his whole life centred around it so much so that he sacrificed almost everything for it (Bad Boys-9x7). But being subjugated to Sam's statement :that he "wouldn't do the same for him" that he wouldn't bring him back from the dead made him realize that his life is now totally "worthless." That's why he kinda embraced the darkness that came with the Mark of Cain. He was kinda on a suicide mission. It's about time Dean realizes his own importance and sense of self. And, for that he needs to get more dark and break in every way imaginable (Demon Dean) to truly become himself again, to revive as a new person. Dean Winchester needs to be his own person first. To truly appreciate the brother's relationship, the brothers need to drift apart in order to fall back again with much more respect and understanding between them. I think season 9 was about that. Drifting apart and Dean having that suppressed breakdown. I loved it! I love how their characters are keeping pace with time and changing. I think it's fair to their characters and absolutely genius!
ReplyDeleteI'm kinda surprised as to why nobody pointed that.
Eric was not much better with Sam in the latter seasons. Jeremy came in with the idea that Sam had served his purpose and the complicated mytharc Sam had was something he wanted to give to Dean. So we have ended up with Demon Dean and Sam's narrative thinier than a wisp of paper.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the show has fallen that far. Yes the last few seasons have not been as brilliant as seasons at the start, but the show is 9 years old and was designed as a 5 year arc. Everything that has happened since has had to be tacked on almost. The quality is still there and also everyone keeps talking about the bad episodes in season 9 but what about bugs and route 666. All seasons have bad episodes and the way I look at it is that even an only Okl episode of Supernatural is still better than mathan the majority of other shows and the great ones, which season 9 did have a few of, IMO, are better than anything any other show could do.
ReplyDeleteYes there are some things that need to be addressed, especially the writing of Sam and Dean, and the dropping of plotlines. I do hope they are addressed in season 10, but I am looking forward to another great season of my favouirite show theat I am going to enjoy and I do hope that Dean is a demon for at least half of the season and theen they can spend the last half fighting together.
It was used in "Freaks and Geeks" to cure the woman at the end of the episode.
ReplyDeleteSam and Dean's relationship was really at the forefront of the season, and was pretty much touched upon in most episode in some way. To me that was the mytharc of the season, with the angels and MoC as more catalysts for their disintegrating relationship.
ReplyDeleteKripke and Edlund have said "The End" was an alternate what if universe, because the whole time travel thing started to become too complicated.
ReplyDeleteIt was. Kripke/Edlund/Singer have said as much.
ReplyDeleteKripke was still fairly involved in season 6, so some blame needs to go to him too..
ReplyDeleteHe hasn't really. He's written three episodes, "Sin City" with Carver in season 3, "Appointment in Sammra" with Gamble in season 6 and "Out with the Old" with Klein in season 7. And all to me were, pretty good episodes. And as EP he's always had a say along with Kripke about scripts etc... Nothing has really changed.
ReplyDeleteNot really. I didn't find Muriel. Bartholomew, Malachi or their subordinates to be campy. Ezra maybe, but that's just one.
ReplyDeleteI could totally see that Carver is taking the show this way, lets hope he sticks with it.
ReplyDeleteBreak Dean into a million pieces to put not only him back together with a true sense of self but also redefine his bond with Sam from overprotective older brother and younger brother who hates being protected to a more equal standing. They always will be close, and back-up each other, that is not in question.
But beyond that both need to learn that is absolutely fine to be their own person. It does not diminish the bond or the family, if they have different opinions or likes. And it is absolutely normal to argue and fight and speak your mind. If you can't be who you truly are around family...then around whom can you?
Will be interesting to see if Carver takes season 10 this way.
Come to think of it....you're right and I do hope this is or something very similar turns out to be Carvers plan for the brothers.
ReplyDeleteIt's always darkest just before the dawn.
Yeah but at least with Sera I can say they were some awesome episodes that crafted (Death's Door was amazing and still makes me cry despite the bs decisions that came after it). I haven't liked a single thing Carver hasn't written during his reign. And, the practically non-stop canon busting from seasons 8 & 9 practically gives my OCD hives.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, I yield to nobody in the open-my-mouth-in-disbelief wackiness of Bugs OR Route 666 (I LOVE Kathleen Noonan but she was something else in her "big" scene in Route 666 doing all the back story; what an exercise in overacting!) because the general excellence of Season 1 just stands out even more in making me wonder how those two episodes got made.
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody have ANY ideas on what the story line for the Campbell family WAS supposed to be? It just bugs me that they were introduced and then just nothing. I did notice there was a huge family set up at the Campbell Compound but they seem to have all gotten killed off in less than 6mos and there were Sam and Dean still fighting the good fight and Grandpa Shady was down to Gwen in the ConnWorm episode.
Agree with every single word of this.
ReplyDeleteI've had two major problems these last couple of seasons (among many other issues). First is how much they've destroyed and kinda ignored Sam.
Sam in the early seasons was amazing. He was smart. Strong. Cunning. A major character. Now he's just.... There. He reacts. He has 5 minutes of what looks to be a storyline then becomes pointless again for another ten episodes while Cas or Crowley get to have all the fun with dean. Bring back Sam as our second lead character.
Second... The angels. I am so over everything to do with them. I know I'm gonna get slammed for this but I'm over Castiel. He's over done. He's been the same thing since season five now and I'm bored. But more than that. All the angels. Remember when they were fearful. and strong. And relentless. Zachariah and Uriel and even Michael. Now they're just random schmucks who sit around and hang around and complain. Or whatever that idiot who was fooled by that terrible interrogation was. Angels are a joke. Just much lamer versions of demons. Yes, they've fallen so have less powers. But does this mean their personalities have changed?? Remember how Cas acted when he first arrived in season four. He had to become accustomed to earths ways. Why do no other angels ever have that trouble?
Personally, I would not be sad at all if every single angel on this show mysteriously died and was never mentioned again.
And Sam was given a storyline. And a character.
Rant over
But what about Pamela Barnes AND Chuck Shurley telling Sam to quit?
ReplyDeleteIt was bad and it was wrong to be drinking demon blood. Period.
In the beginning he WAS exorcising possessed people by the power of his mind. But didn't you notice that most of the possessed people were already tied down so that he could've just done the Rituale Romanum and exorcised them in the regular fashion.
The angels were telling Dean to make Sam "stop" because they knew what the blood drinking did. It was changing Sam. That was why his eyes turned black and his blood rate and temperature were up in Lucifer Rising. He was transforming himself into something not human. I don't understand minimizing what transformation from drinking the blood was causing. This was bad for SAM and it was what Ruby led him into. BTW I hate Ruby.
.
Zachariah said that Castiel (and the "lower angels") didn't know what the end plan really was, Castiel thought his purpose was to PREVENT Lucifer Rising for most of Season 4. When he began to realize what was going on THAT'S when he got re-educated and betrayed Dean.
I still think Sam CHOSE to murder the nurse for her blood. Ruby told him that he made all the "right" choices every time. He contributed to his own downfall in Season 4. He started out thinking he was doing the right thing and found out he was in the wrong. What he had been doing made him into Lucifer's perfected vessel (remember Nick was drinking gallons of demon blood to keep Lucifer bound or whatever?)
I guess I really see things differently from you; I enjoy the discussion about our different opinions.
I am of two minds here; Jensen doesn't get to play "different" characters in his own body as often as Jared does.
ReplyDeleteBut if Dean has his memories, and is himself, just infected with demon-dom (I don't know how to express what I mean but I hope you understand my meaning) I think Dean would fight like a somabitch to get himself cured, like he did when he got vamped. He values his humanity.
I just wonder if Dean is going to end up chained in the middle of a Devil's Trap in the basement for multiple episodes or will he participate in his own saving.
I introduced a friend to show and SHE said Jesus Christ, Sam gets tied to a chair in EVERY episode.
ReplyDeleteFunny but sort of boring after a while. I understood that Dean was ramped up on the Mark so he was not getting captured, but come on, writers They should have had Sam looking into another lead or something rather than banged on the head and waking up tired to a chair EVERY FREAKING EPISODE.
I absolutely agree. I do hope Carver has planed season 10 with a plot like this. Love to see that.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for my ignorance here: what is Hitchcock's bomb theory
ReplyDeleteI also am curious why Sam did not spend more time on investigating the Mark of Cain. If only from Bible reference, it was from God and it appeared to confer immortality onto Cain. I thought when Dean told him originally in Sharp Teeth how he came to have it the conversation got cut short and I thought he just said, Oh I got this to become able to use a weapon to kill Abaddon. (And to those who wondered why Dean wanted Abaddon so badly, she DID say that she wanted to take his "perfect vessel" and he'd spend eternity watching her do evil from the inside. That sort of made it personal, right?)
Sam COULD'VE summoned Crowley and asked him what the Mark of Cain was doing to Dean since he observed changes in Dean's behavior. I think the writers were very very wrong to show him actually not looking into the issue.
Just the once on his computer but no real follow-through.
Bless you for this post -- especially for those last couple of paragraphs about Sam. I am so tired of the Sam just wants to settle down to a safe/normal life. No, he left that behind long ago. He had come to terms with it most explicitly in season six. He told Samuel Colt that there's no getting out. I wish the writers would quit beating that dead horse.
ReplyDeleteOr better yet, how about Kripke?
ReplyDeleteHitchcock gave an example of a scene where characters are talking about mundane things like baseball. Suddenly a bomb goes off. The audience gets 10 seconds of surprise.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if the audience gets to know that there is a bomb and it’s about to go off, the mundane conversation suddenly becomes vital. The audience gets 10 minutes of suspense.
The people involved in the show kept talking about a shocking ending, a twist, a cliffhanger. It was supposed to be a surprise (although a lot of people speculated about Dean turning into a demon). I think they could’ve done a better job building the suspense.
There should have been more of a sense of urgency and that could’ve been created by having Sam more involved in what is happening to Dean. I actually can’t help but suspect that Dean didn’t tell Sam everything Cain said. Sam knows Lucifer better than anyone so Dean bearing a satanic mark should have had a bigger impact on Sam.
I too would like to see that happen. Unfortunately the show has shown a reluctance to show Dean's actions in a bad light, and FOR ME, the only way this scenario works is if Sam is given and equal POV and his POV is supported BY THE WRITING, not by the writers saying, "we were showing that Sam is mature" at Comic Con and in interviews. I expect that the season 10 will end up not working for me, but hope springs eternal.
ReplyDelete