Supernatural – Episode 9.14 – The Gripe Review
Mar 2, 2014
Reviews Supernatural The Gripe ReviewWelcome to the post hiatus gripe review.
This week I feel redundant. When I started the Gripe Review it was because everyone else seemed to be praising the writers and the show and forgiving all the mistakes, so I decided to create a place where we could point out those flaws and fans who also saw them could come discuss them without the fear of being drowned out or yelled at.
But recently – particularly after this week’s episode – it seems every message board and forum I frequent is filled with gripes. Gone are the praises and the blind eyes turned toward plot holes and out of character behavior. People aren't just complaining about the slow burn dissolve of the brotherly bond. They are talking about things that are usually discussed here, like bad pacing, awful editing and storylines that go nowhere. It makes me feel superfluous when every Tom and Sally on every site is saying the same things I’m saying.
It also makes me feel validated.
When I started these reviews some people accused me of nitpicking, and the so called “fishing for flaws,” and I got to admit, there were times I worried about that too. I worried an episode would come along that would be so good I would have nothing to write about. Thankfully (sadly) I didn't need to worry. I never had to “fish” because there never was a time when the writers didn't screw up. There was always something obvious and annoying, and lately it’s become so bad even the praising fans have noticed and changed their tunes. I on the other hand now suffer from having too much to write and not enough room to fit it in.
I can’t believe this is the status quo. I can’t believe there would come a time when I would be bored of watching Castiel on screen, or dread the brothers being alone in a scene. It’s as if someone reached inside my head and found all the things I liked about the show, then systematically went on and destroyed them, along with the hope that it will ever get better. Supernatural is a new beast now and I have no idea from which angle to approach it.
I am going to simply list the gripes that are most prominent in my mind. Feel free to use the comment section to add more since I’m sure there are many I will miss. It’s because of how much the writers and showrunner have given us to talk about that it's become so easy - and hard - to write gripe reviews.
Gripe#1 – Who stole my remote and changed the channel?
One thing I don’t understand about Carver is his fondness to keep his storylines separate. He has a mythology arc going with the angels, a side story with Crowley and Abaddon, and random monster-of-the-week stories featuring Sam and Dean, and he keeps them all completely apart. Even when he lets players from one story join another – like in First Born when Crowley went with Dean and Cas stayed with Sam – the two parts of the episode are entirely seperate.
This style has a multitude of problems. Usually when TV shows do this they devise a way to bring the branches together at the end, some even use clever techniques that fill the audience with glee when suddenly , through one common parameter, everything clicks in place. Seinfeld was famous for this. Breaking Bad and Modern Family use it too at times.
Carver’s Supernatural never does it right, and the reason, I suspect, is that it takes a tremendous amount of skill to pull it off, especially in a single episode. Instead the result is a disjointed mess that looks like two completely separate episodes were edited into one, while parts of each were left on the cutting room floor. The editing and pacing is off. At times the cuts are so jarring I wonder if a ghost has gotten hold of my remote control and is flipping between two shows.
I’m baffled by this. Why would Carver branch the show into paths that never cross? Why would he make a spectacle out of the angels falling, then exclude Sam and Dean from that story? Why make Castiel a regular yet have him act in his own show that's not even a part of the Winchester world except when he is helping them solve cases? Why create an awesome character like Abaddon, then keep her off camera for so long because her story has nothing to do with anyone else but Crowley, who himself is not a part of any other plot?
Whatever it is that Carver is doing it isn't working and people are noticing. Fans who usually don’t talk about much beyond the relationship between the brothers or whether or not Cas is in an episode are speaking up. They talk about bad editing and confusing scenes which means they no longer can immerse themselves in the show because of the flaws.
Gripe #2 – Honeymoons and alien invasions
Imagine a movie whose bulk is about a couple on their honeymoon vacation. Towards the end the couple comes back home and they see a friend waiting for them at the airport. The friend tells them that, while they were away, aliens invaded the city, destroyed their home, killed their friends and loved ones, overthrew the government and are now ruling the world. The movie ends with the couple stepping onto the street to face the new world.
I don’t know about you but if I ever had the displeasure of watching that movie I would be very pissed off. I'd wonder why the director spent all that time showing the couple’s honeymoon trip when all the exciting stuff was happening back home? And if he didn't intend to show us the alien invasion, or use it for any purpose other than exposition, then why go through the trouble of telling us about it? Why not just make it a movie about a couple on honeymoon and cut the rest?
This is how I felt when I watched the bits with Castiel and Bartholomew in this episode. Beside the fact that they were severely boring, the only thing we watched in those segments was Bartholomew telling Castiel everything we missed while we were watching Charlie and Garth. If that stuff was important why not show it? If it wasn't why tell it? What's more, the things Bartholomew talked about didn't seem to affect anything in the upcoming parts of the show. At least not the way it all ended. I doubt we would ever go back and investigate who those “captives” were, or how Bartholomew – one of Castiel’s devotees in the past – became a faction leader, or who those rebel angels were whose leader seemed so precious to Castiel . Bartholomew’s long, monotone speech through the hallways of Boredom Boardroom was nothing but a giant waste of time.
Gripe #3 – So that was it?
Let's talk a little more about Bartholomew. When he was introduced in I’m no Angel, as a villain with purpose and a group of dedicated followers, it looked like a major part of the season’s mythology would depend on him. In Holy Terror we met his rival Malachi and a little more was revealed about his story. For all intents and purposes it seemed he would be a player in the war between the angel factions.
And then he spent half of an episode telling Castiel everything else that was left out of his story and was supposedly important about him,... and he died. They ended his branch of mythology before it even got the chance to get off the ground.
This reminds me of Naomi. She too had a grand story and a lot of intense scenes with Castiel, Crowley and even Dean. I’m sure a lot of us thought she would play a big role in the outcome of season 8. But the writers killed her off before anything she did could have any impact or reach any resolution.
Going back yet another season one could argue the same thing about Dick Roman. He died and with him died the entire Leviathan storyline. As if they, and everything they built or changed in the human world, never existed.
I don’t know what to call this. It’s not even Deus Ex Machina. It's something worse. At least with that you get a conclusion, even if it’s a cheap cop out. This is akin to carrying a story in the belly of the show and delivering it stillborn. If show didn't want to give Bartholomew’s character a meaningful role why even include him in the mytharc and waste time pretending he was somebody?
Gripe #4 – Where are the scares?
This week in the land of Sam and Dean – you know, our main characters who have taken a break from their own show – our heroes go on a quest to find Kevin’s mom. According to ghost Kevin and his afterlife girlfriend, Kevin's mom is held hostage in a storage facility.
This provides an excellent opportunity for a freaky episode about dark, dank and horror laden storage rooms where monsters loom in every shadowy corner and horror breathes behind locked doors. The place is overseen by a lanky, rusty man who looks more dead than alive yet his sharp, piercing eyes penetrate one's soul. It would be an infinite source of scares.
That’s not what happens. Instead we get Dumb and Dumberer as demons. They are so ridiculously absurd even Dean comments on it. Why would the managers of every storage facility look the same? Was that explained, or was it an inside joke I didn't get? What is the purpose behind this look? Is it supposed to be funny? In an episode about innocent women being held in dark storage rooms by a person who evidently abused them?
Last time I checked this was a horror show. Why the insistence on nerd culture and misplaced comedy? As fans of the genre it’s our right to ask: where are the scares?
I had this same feeling when I watched Rock and a Hard Place. That episode too featured a dark and frightening place with captive people. But instead of making use of it they only had the characters sit around tables and chat about their lives. I saw a huge opportunity to return the show to its roots go to waste. The only reason I didn't include that in the gripes for that episode was that the episode had many other, more major problems and there was little room for this issue to be discussed.
It’s sad when the episode of The Originals I watch before this episode was scarier than the episode of Supernatural, when that show isn't even categorized as horror and hence occupies the 8 o’clock time slot.
Gripe #5 – Sam and Dean and their teenage drama
Remember this image? It used to be at the end of each episode there was a scene where Sam and Dean sat in, stood around, or leaned against the Impala and had a brotherly chat. The topics ranged from reflecting on the events of the episode to the ongoing storyline of their lives.
This season they replaced it with this.
I’m not saying it’s bad (yes I’m saying it's bad, it’s really really bad,) but even as a vehicle of storytelling it doesn't do what the Impala talks used to do. What we had before advanced the brothers’ storyline, in happy or sad directions. There were confessions, reassurances, pleas and useful, well placed exposition. I would have been happy if the current brotherly banter at least did that. But it doesn't. It is stagnant.
Take this episode for example, and what happened at the end. Kevin (the ghost) tells them their fight is stupid (which I both agree and disagree with,) Dean tries to use this momentum to open a talk with Sam, and Sam just leaves. Sam is entitled to his anger, no doubt about that. But his avoidance doesn't advance the story. His storming off to his room and closing the door makes the whole scene pointless. It doesn't give us any new information about the current state of the brothers' relationship beyond “Sam is angry” which we already knew.
What I worry about is that they do with the Sam and Dean conflict the same thing they did with the Dean and Castiel conflict in seasons 6 &7. That one too was dragged for a season and a half until it was inexplicably dropped at the season finale because Dean needed Cas to defeat the villain. The writers keep promising the issues between the characters will get resolved if we have patience. But they fail to tell us if the resolution will come in a gradual, meaningful way or from one episode to the next with no build up or explanation. If the latter is true then I’m with Kevin. This whole storyline is stupid.
Highlight - Kevin
Speaking of Kevin he was the one positive spot in an otherwise disappointing episode. His reunion with his mother was well written and well acted. It was a delight to watch those two interact and find closure, and to see him move on to a somewhat better place. Let’s hope they keep him there and not bring him back for extra pointless appearances like Bobby.
More than that though, I hope neither he nor anyone else ever walks into an office with light paneled walls, just because those places suck every trace of personality out of any character who enters them. Look at Castiel. He used to be my favorite character but he has become yawn worthy because he spent too much time in Boredom Boardroom.
I sense another gripe coming so I’ll stop.
Feel free to discuss these gripes, or your owns, in the comment section. I hope as much as I feel redundant this week, you don’t think this review is, and share your opinions with me.
Tessa
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I'm so glad you included Gripe #1. I know the show has tried to do something like this before (season 6). But never before has the editing for it been so badly done. At least in season 6 the story-arcs touched before they were abruptly dropped. But this season they all seem to exist in their own separated bubbles while so much time is wasted in this MOTW stories. I used to once love MOTW episodes that allowed for the story-arc to rest. But Carver has actually made me dread them.
ReplyDeleteOn screen story-arc heavy episodes seem to only repeat what we know and anything that actually moves the story along happens behind the screen, which makes it feel like we're missing huge chapters of the story. At the end of the day there is no sense of urgency from Sam and Dean towards Heaven and Hell because they seem to barely interact with those two arcs. And yet we, the viewer, are expected to care when the two protagonists don't. Like you said, we are getting all the boring stuff on screen and the actually interesting stuff we only hear about from other characters. I do feel there is a far more interesting story happening and I'm stuck with Garth, Ghostfacers and Charlie instead of Abaddon and the angels.
Bartholomew was basically this season's Eve. He was supposed to be this big bad that was killed on his second episode. Not surprising since season 9 seems to be going out of it's way to recycle season 6. I'm getting a serious sense of déjà vu.
Another gripe for me is the side characters. Or as I will start to call them from now, redshirts. I miss the days when angels had personalities and a purpose. Now they mostly exist to stand around. When is actually given some backstory and something of a personality...they are immediately killed. Instead of killing female characters to give a male character purpose, they are killing angels, to give Castiel the same purpose. I've seriously lost track how many possibly interesting angels have died in front of Castiel just for the sake of angst.
And demons? What happened? I get that a lot of then big bad demons were killed already. But this pathetic excuses is what Hell has to offer? What happened to the days when demons were supposed to be scary badasses? Yes Alastair and Yellow Eyes, Ruby and Meg, Casey, etc. had their funny lines here and there. But you could at least tell they were dangerous in their own ways. They seemed to use that part of their personality to screw with people more. Now watching these demons it's just...sad. Even Abaddon who showed a lot of promise has become a one-note villain. And Crowley is just going to get even more pathetic.
Thanks for the comment. It's pretty much everything I thought about. Demons are no longer scary, angels have no personality, and Sam and Dean are neither threatened by nor important to either. Next week they are going to meet the Ghostfacers and go on a ghost hunting adventure. I'm sure when we come back to the mytharc we'll find out Crowley invaded heaven and is now in league with Metatron while Gadreel and Abaddon got married and are raising little baby angel-demons. Everything is possible when you do it off camera and then have someone tell the audience about it.
ReplyDelete" Dean tries to use this momentum to open a talk with Sam" I appreciate the way you worded this. It seems that whatever Dean was gonna say has raised as much conflict among the fandom as the brothers' fighting. Whether he was gonna apologize or not, personally I have no idea.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the review.
That scenario somehow managed to sound better than the actual story we're getting.
ReplyDeleteI had no idea about that. What do people think he was going to say? More importantly, how could they assume they know what it was going to be about?
ReplyDeleteThis episode committed the worst sin...it bored me. I couldn't connect with Mrs. Tran's anger or grief. Kevin's turnabout in attitude made no sense. Why was he Obi-Wan Kenobi when his killer is still loose and he was sullen and resentful when alive? When we do get a decent episode, it is spoiled by the Sam and Dean drama. I think the writers have forgotten their genre.
ReplyDeleteMy point exactly. There's no telling what he was gonna say. Some say that he was gonna build on what Kevin was saying, encouraging Sam to "get over it". And I've seen others go on about how Sam won't give Dean the opportunity to apologize. Even in my own inner circle, there's conflict. Animosity between the brothers is bad, but animosity within the fandom is worse...at least for me.
ReplyDeleteThat's because, as usual, the writers refuse to write their characters. They leave it for fans to interpret. What was the point of Sam stalling the talk? If he had opened up he would've provided us at least with some insight on where his mind was right now. But by cutting Dean off not only did he prevent us from finding that out, he even blocked Dean. So now the audience is confused about both of their thoughts.
ReplyDeleteThey are doing what The Walking Dead did. I haven't been able to watch it this season and I love the show but very little happens during an episode. When I would think back over an episode, I was thoroughly entertained but there may have been only one minor point to advance the plot.
ReplyDeleteUntil Carver took over, there was very little filler on Supernatural. Despite its flaws, nearly every episode was packed full. That has changed. Not only has the quality of writing dropped dramatically but there are severe structural problems within the show itself. Unfortunately, they have increasingly bought into the idea that the cash cow is the bromance of Sam and Dean. They took the positive feedback from fans on the bitch/jerk moments and prank wars and went into overkill by turning them on each other.
I have no nit-picks with your nit-picks this week ;)
ReplyDeleteLike you say there is just too much to criticize this week. For some reason at the beginning of the episode I got excited that things were finally going to come together. All the groundwork they've laid was coming to a head and we were going to see what direction the rest of the season is going. I'm not sure why I thought that. The episode was so bad, I am certainly not going to re-watch it for a reminder.
Cas is back to being a leader of an army, and I just don't know why we should care. When the angels crashed to the earth, we were promised death and mayhem, but we have been shown almost none of that.
Unfortunately, they have increasingly bought into the idea that the cash cow is the bromance of Sam and Dean.
ReplyDeleteI get that feeling too. The tragedy however is that their idea of bromance is the brothers not even wanting to talk to each other. Kripke had Michael and Lucifer and an entire apocalypse to handle, yet he managed to keep the bromance alive and full of heart. Craver has turned it into a source of annoyance while making it the only focus the brothers have on the show.
Why would they choose Cas as a leader? He has shown no desire and he killed thousands? of angels last time he was in that position. Not a sterling resume. I love Cas but this makes no sense to me.
ReplyDeleteThat was one of the things that came to my mind while thinking about the review. Like I said, there were so many things wrong with this episode I didn't know what to include. But you're right. It makes absolutely no sense for those angels to choose Castiel as their leader unless they are like werewolves who choose as their pack leader whoever defeats the previous one.
ReplyDeleteYeah, pretty much this entire season is feeling like filler right now. A dozen side stories that occasionally get minor progression, one of which is supposed to be the main story arc for this season, but I have no idea which one.
ReplyDeleteI love genre shows, but there are 65+ of them this year. I have at least sampled every one of them, though most I have watched every episode. I have stopped watching bunches of them because there just isn't enough time to watch them all. I only hated a few of them. Most of the ones I stopped watching were mediocre. Sadly, I enjoyed many of those more than I am enjoying Supernatural right now.
I rarely stop watching shows that I have watched multiple seasons. A few episodes back I stopped watching Being Human because of similar problems, an over abundance of muddled going nowhere story lines. A week later they announced this was the final season, but that wasn't enough to get me to watch the final half season. Maybe I will watch the finale just to get a bit of closure, maybe not.
I've invested much more time into SPN so I'm much less willing to toss it aside, but a few more episodes in a row like this one and I might toss it anyway. There are 9 episodes left this season, they better not be stretching this out until the last 2 episodes. I might not make it that far. Something exciting needs to happen, real soon. Most seasons have felt like an epic battle between good (or at least semi-good) vs. evil. This season is a soap opera, and a boring one at that.
Yeah this show is really lost at the moment, the last episode was so dull I can barely remember it.
ReplyDeleteJus' don't see how folks who have come to hate this show still watch.
ReplyDeleteEver since the 1st offerin' of "The Gripe Review" - it's come across as jus' a royal dump!
Great gripes, Tessa! I agree w/all of them, esp. #1 and #2. I am not sure why, but almost all of Cas's scenes w/the angels bore me to death. Those scenes just seem randomly thrown into an episode, and they tend to bring everything to a halt. The natural momentum of an episode suddenly stops when the story shifts to Cas. As you pointed out, I believe the transitions would be smoother if the Winchesters were invested in the arc as well. It really does feel like Cas is on a different show than Sam and Dean. The Winchesters are completely separated from Cas and his arc. It's been that way for several seasons now, and it just doesn't work for me. I'm not sure why the story is being told in that way.
ReplyDeleteAnd I believe I must have slept through the Cas/Bart scenes b/c I didn't recall anything about them. On another board, someone mentioned Bart's back story, and I was like, "Bart had a back story?" That's how little attention I paid to those scenes. And then Bart died so I guess it doesn't really matter that I didn't pay attention to those scenes.
I also agree about the unnecessary, never-ending drama btw Sam and Dean. There's no movement on that front, and it doesn't appear there will be any movement until late in the season or possibly next year. Who knows? I don't care at this point.
I hate that the more interesting storylines (i.e., the MOC and the Abaddon/Crowely fight) have been shelved. And I hate this way of storytelling - a little progress every 5-6 episodes. There's too much filler and not enough forward movement on the show's arcs.
Anyway, great list!
I typed this out in response to a comment about hate that got deleted just before I hit the post button. Figured I'd post it anyway.
ReplyDelete---------------
Personally, I don't hate the show, and I don't think anyone else here hates it either. This season I have been generally unsatisfied with the direction the show has taken. This last episode was a low point in a "meh" season. If I felt this way about a show in its first few seasons, I certainly would have dumped it (as I just did with Being Human), especially with all the genre competition right now.
After watching 200+ episodes of a show, it is hard to walk away due to a dozen sub-par episodes. The hope is that it will turn around and come back to what we love about the show. If I do stop watching SPN, it won't be cause I hate it. It will be because I just couldn't stick it out any longer waiting for a payout too long in the coming.
I remember now what got me excited at the beginning of the episode. Kevin was talking about heaven and all the ghosts that hadn't ascended and about there being a communication network among the ghosts. I thought for sure this was going to lead to the brothers' and Cas' story lines getting connected. Instead, it was cast aside the moment he finished explaining it.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I don’t understand about Carver is his fondness to keep his
ReplyDeletestorylines separate. He has a mythology arc going with the angels, a
side story with Crowley and Abaddon, and random monster-of-the-week
stories featuring Sam and Dean, and he keeps them all completely apart.
Even when he lets players from one story join another – like in First
Born when Crowley went with Dean and Cas stayed with Sam – the two parts
of the episode are entirely seperate.
I admit to being slightly amused by this one, not because you are wrong, but because this week criticisms of Person of Interest were about the opposite of this and how annoying and predictable it is when two separate stories get tied together. On POI this week we had the not police side trying to protect a woman and the child that is being held hostage to make her erase 911 tapes. On the police side they were investigating the death of a woman. Midway we discover that the hostage taker really wants the 911 call the murdered woman made erased. Then everyone worked together to reveal the murderer so the woman no longer needed to erase the 911 tape. Frankly I liked them tying things together.
I admit that was my thought. "Hey, it's the guy that killed half our family and then got conned into helping evict us from Heaven. Let's follow him!" Jeeze they could have kept the pacifist angel (is it bad I can't even remember his name) and had Cas tell them to follow him and then have Cas take orders from him. He didn't even have to become part of the cast. Cas could just say he contacted him with angel radio and go from there.
ReplyDeleteLove your review. One of the reasons I think Carver is doing these separate stories is to give Jared and Jensen more time off. Just like last year when they did the flashback crap. I just wish instead of having 23 episodes and having some of them be crap, give us 20 episodes and have them be good.
ReplyDeleteI really think they brought back Misha as Castiel because how many fans love him and he would be able to take up how much screen time so that Jared and Jensen can have time off.
I just wish instead of having 23 episodes and having some of them be crap, give us 20 episodes and have them be good.
ReplyDeleteOr even just 10-13, like cable shows.Sometimes I think that's one reason cable shows are considered of higher quality. They don't have any episodes to fill.
But even without the need to fill 23 episodes, I still think they would give us fillers, since fillers are the only thing Sam and Dean are currently occupied with. If the story stays the same, with Sam and Dean not even knowing, or caring, anything about the angel battles, then they would still show us irrelevant stuff regardless of whether they have to produce 23 or 13 episodes.
It makes sense to tie things together IMO. Otherwise we'd wonder why they mashed the two stories into one episode. Even if they showed Castiel meet up with the boys at the end and told them, "Hey guys, I'm the leader of an angel faction now," it would have been better.
ReplyDeleteI guess what bothers me most about this format is that Sam and Dean not only aren't players in the other story branches, they don't even know about them. They didn't know Bartholomew existed, let alone that he was a threat. Now he's dead and a new regime is in place and they still don't know anything. Why should I, as a viewer, care about the angel storyline if the heroes of the show themselves don't bother with it? And if Castiel is now the sole hero of the show then why am I spending so much time watching Sam and Dean and their one time adventures?
Wow, someone posted a comment that was deleted? About hate? Wished I had seen that. I sincerely hope no one thinks I'm writing these reviews because I hate the show. I already explained the reason behind them: to work through my disappointment of this season so I could keep watching the show I've loved for 9 years.
ReplyDeleteIf I felt this way about a show in its first few seasons, I certainly would have dumped it (as I just did with Being Human), especially with all the genre competition right now.
After watching 200+ episodes of a show, it is hard to walk away due to a dozen sub-par episodes.
This pretty much describes me. People keep saying if you don't like the current state of the show why don't you stop watching. They fail to realize that when you have been with a story and its characters for that long, it's hard to voluntarily leave it unfinished. Not that I haven't done it before. I stopped reading Naruto when it got too annoying and ridiculous. But I wasn't involved with its fandom so that's a difference. Leaving SPN includes leaving all the message boards, side activities and friendships I've made in the fandom behind too. For some of us it isn't just a show. It's been part of our lives for many years and you can't just quit it like you'd quit a show in its first or second season.
That being said, I'm not entirely above stopping to watch the show if one of several things happens. Those include Sam or Dean doing something severely reprehensible (yet not being called on it by the show as if it's not wrong,) and Castiel being killed off.
But recently – particularly after this week’s episode – it seems every message board and forum I frequent is filled with gripes. Gone are the praises and the blind eyes turned toward plot holes and out of character behavior. People aren't just complaining about the slow burn dissolve of the brotherly bond. They are talking about things that are usually discussed here, like bad pacing, awful editing and storylines that go nowhere. It makes me feel superfluous when every Tom and Sally on every site is saying the same things I’m saying.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit I'm confused by this. I've rarely seen praises and blind eyes toward anything on this show. Not in reviews or on message boards. There's a general fandom feeling of loyalty to the show but even that has been something that has been carped about since season 4 or 5. From the time I've been following Supernatural online, I've seen consistent criticism. I started reading TWOP and tumblr, among other sites, last season, and it was a drumbeat of criticism. Not just about the brothers being apart, but about many other elements of the show that you mention in your reviews.
If anything I'm actually shocked when episodes get full praise.
When I started these reviews some people accused me of nitpicking, and the so called “fishing for flaws,” and I got to admit, there were times I worried about that too. I worried an episode would come along that would be so good I would have nothing to write about. Thankfully (sadly) I didn't need to worry. I never had to “fish” because there never was a time when the writers didn't screw up. There was always something obvious and annoying, and lately it’s become so bad even the praising fans have noticed and changed their tunes. I on the other hand now suffer from having too much to write and not enough room to fit it in.
Didn't you say you enjoyed most of Road Trip? Are you saying now that you actually didn't enjoy the episode and it's just another example of how bad the show is?
The thing is I find parts of almost each episode that I enjoy and I don't enjoy. And I find that fans like me who feel this way are often dismissed as being blind, as somehow not seeing the light, as needing to be taught about problems with the show.
I wish that reviews and criticism for this show didn't always have to be so absolute.
Most cable shows end up having fillers too.
ReplyDeleteCas has always been seen as some leader or powerful figure ever since he helped stop the Apocalypse. I'd say they chose him because he was trying to show another way instead of just mindless violence and torture. It would help if the episodes had built up to it though.
ReplyDeleteThey don't really consider themselves a family, generally. I think they just go around looking for some guidance.
ReplyDeleteSupernatural's had filler from season 3 at least. Dean was dying and we spent entire episodes on pirate ships and Sam getting ogled by a "cougar."
ReplyDeleteKripke is the one who had Sam nearly choke Dean to death and have Bobby say it was Dean's fault and to just suck it up. To be honest that killed the bromance for me more than anything ever has since.
ReplyDeleteThe demons stopped being scary once Lucifer came along, because he was mostly self-pitying. I think they're more frightening this season, and last season, but we barely see Abaddon, which takes away a lot of the impact.
ReplyDeleteBartholomew was basically this season's Eve. He was supposed to be this big bad that was killed on his second episode. Not surprising since season 9 seems to be going out of it's way to recycle season 6. I'm getting a serious sense of déjà vu.
Eve was thrown together at the last minute because the Campbell story flopped. I think they always planned Bartholomew to just be there long enough for Cas to kill him. I do think they messed up in presenting him. His first episode was slimy and glib and his second, he died.
I didn't mean to imply those who still enjoy the show are in any way blind or ignorant. Sorry if it came out that way.
ReplyDeleteYes, a lot of internal fandom message boards are filled with critics. But if you go outside, to places like Youtube comments, rating sites or Twitter, it's wall to wall praise for every episode. This week was the first time I saw people saying something different in those places.
Didn't you say you enjoyed most of Road Trip? Yes, that episode had flaws, but I thought you enjoyed most of it
Yes I liked it. Still it wasn't at the same level as episodes like Lazarus Rising, or On the Head of a Pin where I would have to struggle to find a gripe. It simply sucked less that the rest of the season. The structure of the show was still off.
I think that ship sailed in season 3.
I respectfully disagree. The brothers had their issues in season 4, but they came together in season 5 and their bond only kept getting stronger until its ultimate crescendo once in Point of No Return, and again in Swan Song. Didn't matter if they didn't have heart to heart Impala talks in every episode, just that if they did it advanced either their story or their characters.
I guess for me the bond was never completely repaired after season 4. Dean felt like he had to suck it up and support Sam, as the writing, seemingly panicked by how far they'd gone at the end of that season, backpedaled to blame Dean for most of what had gone wrong. I like Sam and I sympathized with him then, as i do now, but the writing at that time really killed a lot of my view of that bond. What bothered me then is that I just never felt like the relationship between the brothers was honest, or safe, and instead it was, "You don't have anyone else, so get used to it." For the most part, I've felt that way ever since.
ReplyDeleteYes I liked it. Still it wasn't at the same level as episodes like Lazarus Rising, or On the Head of a Pin where I would have to struggle to find a gripe. It simply sucked less that the rest of the season. The structure of the show was still off.
I agree it wasn't as good as those episodes, but then, I don't think most of the episodes at the time they aired were as good at those.
Yes, a lot of internal fandom message boards are filled with critics. But if you go outside, to places like Youtube comments, rating sites or Twitter, it's wall to wall praise for every episode. This week was the first time I saw people saying something different in those places.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were saying that this was new for the fandom. I understand what you mean now.
It's tough for me to say because I actually saw a more positive response for this episode on tumblr than I have for a number of episodes this season. Sometimes I don't know how to gauge audience reaction because some sites literally have the same comments, the same reviews, every week, every year. I'm glad you keep an eye on other sections. If they didn't like the episode, then that may mean something bad, I don't know.
I agree with much of what you said about Cas' story this week, and how it wasn't well built up to, but I thought the writing treated Cas respectfully and as a complex creature, not a joke or someone there to be tortured, someone who is learning from his mistakes, finally. So I have mixed feelings, because, was this episode less skillfully made than, say, Reading is Fundamental? Yes. But that episode has Cas asking people to pull his finger and a long, long guffaw at mental illness. So sometimes I'm willing to sacrifice some episode quality if the character development is worth it. That bored me far, far more than anything this week. This week was much closer to the Cas I loved long ago.
Bartholomew came and went so quickly we were lucky any of us knew he existed .
ReplyDeleteThe stories always tend to tie together toward the end of the season. I think it was only the last few episodes of season 6 that tied any stories together (other than some blather about "finding weapons"). I actually think they've been more tied to the angel story this season than in past seasons, because of Gadreel. It's just that these last few episodes have had them split up so it seems sloppy.
ReplyDeleteBut they have not been interested in Sam all season , outside of using him as a vessel and for Dean's story. It is not as if they have falling over themselves to give us Sam's pov this season well any season really but this season has been worst. We have not had a Sam-centric episode and the focus as mainly been on Dean since the premiere.
ReplyDeleteBut having said that Kevin saying 'get over it' never should of been a clarion call for Sam to 'get over it' it should not be made that easy. More time spent on what Dean's action actually meant for Sam would of been a more appropriate response from the writers IMO.
The archangels definitely called each other brother, but they are different. When the angels were first introduced they did call each other brothers. Cas told Dean six of his brothers died trying to save him. I didn't check any other transcripts, but I vaguely remember Uriel and Cas calling each other brother. It may have changed in later seasons, but Cas and the lower angels did indicate they saw each other as brothers early on.
ReplyDeleteA big ditto to all you have said, Tessa; especially about the Winchesters not being involved in their own show. I am so disappointed in Carver, because I do think he is a good writer. Let me add one more to your list, though. The brothers’ drama about co-dependency is a dishonest story.
ReplyDeleteKripke addressed what has been labeled as the brothers’ ‘co-dependency’ in Swan Song and wrapped up that story. Since that fifth season, there hasn’t been anything to indicate how this big issue of ‘co-dependency’ came back. I didn’t see anything to indicate that in S6 or S7 – not until Carver introduced it as something unsavory in Sacrifice with Sam’s ‘you like a demon and an angel better than me’ speech. This show comes with a long history, and within that history it has been shown that Dean has historically ‘let Sam go;’ let Sam make his own decision about whether to stay or go – the latest time being in S8 when Sam consciously chose to stay and hunt with Dean.
Personally, I don’t want to see whatever Carver’s idea of a “healthy” relationship or ‘mature’ brothers’ is. I liked the old relationship and the old characters just fine, thank you.
This episode did tell the audience one thing: that Heaven was closed to all souls. I think every viewer watching the show knew that already, but what that scene did do is reinforce the dishonesty of the story. We can now question what good would it have done in Sam’s mind had Dean decided to let Sam die? The Gates of Hell would still be open, the angels would still have fallen, Sam would be dead hanging around in the veil, and Dean would be left to fight alone.
Kevin would be alive, you say? Maybe for a while, but that only means that Metatron would have let Kevin stay alive with both the angel and demon tablets in Kevin’s possession so he could go on interpreting them and eventually get the key on how to reverse the spell. Meanwhile Metatron would not have had to “flip the switch” in Heaven to….I don’t know…deactivate the other prophets or kill them. I don’t really know what Metatron did to the other prophets.
While hanging around in the veil, I guess Sam would not be thinking that Dean has been selfish his whole life, hasn’t done more harm than good, and that he FINALLY got away from being a Winchester, which has made his entire life miserable. Of course, Sam would have been all but written off the show, but…oh, well.
In other words, the whole Winchester story this season makes no sense at all.
One final thing about this episode is that it managed to make the Winchesters appear to not even be hunters so that Mrs. Tran could shine and be a tough cookie. Sam doesn’t know basic electricity and Dean knows a Crowley in-joke, but doesn’t give a thought to Crowley might leave a demon or two guarding his prized ‘hostages?’ – so much for Dean’s infamous spidey senses.
This is too long, and I apologize, but the list of what could be said is just so lengthy.
Both demons and angels, to me, are nothing different than humans. Some are jerks, some unethical, and they are all bad corporate types. They must be patterned off of bad bosses these writers worked for at some point. I miss Zachariah and Uriel.
ReplyDeleteI like Cas when he is connected to Dean, but him in his own story doesn't interest me in the least. I guess that Cas is supposed to have learned from all he did wrong and that now qualifies him to be the new leader in Heaven...and how are the Winchesters connected to that exactly?
ReplyDeleteI took it as, because Sam wouldn't talk and didn't allow Dean to make his overture, that Dean is now getting angry about the whole situation. Of course, I am reading sub-text into JA's ending scene performance, and we all know that sub-text cannot be trusted with this bunch of writers.
ReplyDeleteSame here, but I thought perhaps I could get past that with Sam's speech in 8.23. Silly me. It's to the point now that nothing Sam does will redeem him to me and I now don't give a crap about the mythical 'brother bond.'
ReplyDeleteThe narrative of this season actually says that the brothers should be separated at this point, and it just adds to the confusion of the season that they are each sulking in their MoL bunker rooms. BTW, what happened to Dean's pretty room with all the weapons on the wall?
I disagree that this is Dean's story. This is another season of Dean being all about Sam and how Sam has reacted to Dean's decisions. Personally, I think the viewers have a clear understanding of what Sam thinks of Dean's decisions and I'm months past ready for the whole thing to be over and get onto something about the supernatural.
ReplyDeleteTrue (TWD's episode last night as an example), but there are usually far fewer of them. 10-13 episodes would work for Supernatural, esp. w/Carver at the helm and this team of writers. The whole storyline might be tighter w/fewer episodes.
ReplyDeleteWhy should I, as a viwer, care about the angel storyline if the heroes of the show don't themselves bother with it?
ReplyDeleteExactly! I think Carver is under the impression that Castiel is a third lead. I like Castiel so don't get me wrong, but he is a support character; he's not a lead on this show. He shouldn't be off in his own story doing his own thing completely separate and apart from the leads of the show. It makes no sense and leads to many not caring about whatever he's doing.
I wonder why they aren't centering this spin-off on him. That would make more sense, IMO.
Well it is not a argument I am going to get into. I disagree the season has been presented that way I pretty much think it has been presented from Dean's pov :)
ReplyDeleteI am not sure we will move on from it yet and I certainly do not want it hushed out of the way what Dean did was pretty big.
I've definitely quit watching shows I no longer enjoyed before, but I must say I was never as invested in those shows as Supernatural.
ReplyDeleteI used to love Nip/Tuck and Rescue Me, but I quit watching both before their ends b/c I didn't care for the direction the show was going. Fringe comes closest to being a show I really, really enjoyed but couldn't continue watching. I hated that last season. Just couldn't get into it so I stopped watching. I stuck with LOST to the bitter end, but unlike Supernatural, LOST continued to entertain me on a episodic level each week. I was never bored watching LOST. I have been bored on several occasions since about S5 watching Supernatural.
I feel like I'm going to continue to watch this show b/c I want to see how it ends. I believe next year will be the last. However, if I hear that J2 re-signed new contracts, and that the show is slated to go beyond S10, I may stop watching. For me - I'm only speaking for myself - Carver's two seasons have been abysmal. I can't say I will watch more.
Not only that, but Cas is being shown to have "matured" and is now worthy to be the new leader of Heaven. Meanwhile, we have Sam not knowing the very basics of electricity to the point he couldn't put a ceiling fan in the bedroom, and Dean knows an Crowley in-joke, but doesn't have the sense to think that Crowley may have left a demon or two to guard his prized "hostages." And he obviously has lost his 'spidey senses,' to turn his back on the demon, bend down and say 'This isn't Crowley's storage shed.' Neither brother even looked like hunters in this episode.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . angels w/personalities. I miss them too!
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . the show is solely focused on Dean's POV right now when it should have at least half of the focus on Sam. Sam said some pretty harsh things. Why don't we follow him to his room and see how he's coping? Why not have Cas drop by so Sam has someone he can talk to about how he's feeling since he refuses to talk to Dean?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I think too. Dean's angry now. So both brothers are angry, stubborn, and unwilling to talk to each other.
ReplyDeleteMy question will always be: Why are they currently together again? For this narrative, it makes so much more sense for them to be apart but the writers are wimps and unwilling to tell the story how it should be told. And since that's the case, why did they make Sam's speeches so harsh and overbroad? Why didn't they focus his anger on the possession?
I've read through all of the comments now, and I think I can sum up my feelings about the show. I want the brothers done with this teenage coming-of-age story and back to the Winchesters play for keeps again.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Sam has gotten very little focus outside of two - IMO - horribly written and coldly delivered speeches.
ReplyDeleteJust as in S4, show needed to focus on Sam's motivations and reasons more than they did b/c he was making questionable choices, they should needed to focus more on Sam now. They had Sam say things that A LOT - not all but a lot - of viewers found harsh and cruel, and none of it was put in context. He said those things, but the focus remained on Dean. At some point, they should have shown us what Sam's thinking about this whole situation and how he feels. He could have chatted w/Kevin or Mrs. Tran or Castiel.
And my comment above assumes that I'm not supposed to take Sam's words at face value. I don't think the writers wanted me to think that Sam couldn't give a flip about Dean and would do nothing to save him, but that's what I felt after those crappy speeches. The writers need to address that.
But I am almost positive that what we think is NOT what the writers intended for us to think, and that's the problem. It's like they are clueless as to how those speeches came off to A LOT of viewers. And sside from Sam's two crappy speeches, he hasn't been given any other POV. He makes snarky comments and runs away to his room. That's it. The writing, as usual, is doing him, IMO, a huge disservice.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . the writers have the Winchesters in a holding pattern while everyone else's stories progress. It's ridiculous!
ReplyDeleteThe director, Jerry Wanek, said that they deliberately had nothing on the walls. I would guess that as Dean has stopped seeing the bunker as a home, he's stripped the walls and just gone back to storing the weapons as he did before.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they're saying that Sam and Dean should be separated, just that their relationship as it stood was toxic and had to change. I do wish they'd get on to the next point and get closer again.
Because Sam knows it's not just about the possession, it's about what drove Dean to the point where he will do this again.
ReplyDeleteI felt like we got a little of that when we saw Sam hesitating after he left for his room. I wish we'd gotten more of this.
ReplyDeleteI think they could come back, with the proper writing. I thought they were gone for good after season 4, when it was all Zachariah all the time and then bit player angels, but Naomi and Samandriel proved me wrong.
ReplyDelete"Brother" is a term more than a sign of affection, I think. Cas has generally been the main one to feel emotions about his fellow angels, and then some have felt emotions about him.
ReplyDeleteThey're connected to that because they are also trying to learn from mistakes. That was part of the writing in Road Trip - Dean kept waiting for Cas to admonish or shame him. Cas refused, because he had been where Dean was himself.
ReplyDeleteMark Pedowitz said he didn't want any SPN characters to be spun off. He said there were no characters who could support a spinoff.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that they see Cas as a third lead. Cas' human storyline was almost entirely offcamera. Even now there have only been a few episodes this season where his story was not directly tied to Dean and/or Sam. And it's made clear in promotion that Jensen and Jared are the main focus.
Yeah . . . but does Sam regret saying some of the things he said? What does Sam hope to accomplish by the silent treatment? Does he want to remain partners and not brothers forever? Does Sam want to fix the "brother" part of the relationship? Is Sam waiting for Dean to make the first move (though it looks like Sam rebuffed Dean's attempts to speak to him)? Does Sam realize that Dean believes Sam wouldn't ever save him under any circumstances? Does Sam care? Why is Sam still there? Is Sam still on a mission to get Gadreel?
ReplyDeleteThose are just some of the questions I have about Sam. I feel if the show spent any time on him, we'd get some answers and some idea on what Sam is thinking and feeling right now b/c I'm at a loss.
I'd say that was part of the point with Dean. He's having a breakdown. In the last episode before this one, he decided to eat on the job without thinking about whether it was poisoned or drugged. Dean's not just a hunter - he's a human being. One who is falling apart.
ReplyDeleteAlmost all of Crowley's and Abaddon's, Gadreel's and Metatron's stories are offcamera. Cas' generally is too, when he's not with Sam and Dean. I love that Cas moved forward in this episode, but it's an exception to the rule.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is that? Do you know b/c I sure don't. And if there's some larger point Sam's trying to make, why doesn't he just make it?
ReplyDeleteOh, I know, b/c the writers want to drag out this conflict until next year! Well, the longer they drag this out, the more I don't care about the brotherly bond. And that's saying a lot from someone who watched for Sam/Dean. Now, I couldn't care less if they ever reconciled. Sam doesn't seem to like or trust Dean so I don't know why he's hanging around him.
I guess it depends on the show. I felt like almost all of the last season of Doctor Who was a filler.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about less episodes, because there are some crappy episodes, but sometimes I think the little things I love (that I realize many other fans don't care about) are there just because of killing time with 23 episodes. I also feel like one of the only reasons good, needed characters like Jody return is because they need someone to carry the extra episodes.
But I totally understand why people think 23 is too much.
I hope that means Dean will be leaving at the end of the season. This MOC thing is possibly being reserved for next year, so maybe Dean leaves at the end of the season on his quest to kill Abaddon and Sam will do whatever it is he wishes to do.
ReplyDeleteIf they don't see him as a third lead, why is he off in his own, separate story that has absolutely NOTHING to do w/the Winchesters?!?!
ReplyDeleteAs someone pointed out, the Winchesters wouldn't know Bart from Malachi from Judith(?) b/c they are not involved in that story. It has nothing to do w/them and has no bearing on their lives.
And you can't judge whether they think Cas is a lead by whether his story is on-camera or not. Practically everything that happens emotionally with Sam occurs off-screen or in a 5-minute snippet. They most certainly view Cas as a third lead. They shouldn't but they do.
Kripke addressed what has been labeled as the brothers’ ‘co-dependency’ in Swan Song and wrapped up that story. Since that fifth season, there hasn’t been anything to indicate how this big issue of ‘co-dependency’ came back. I didn’t see anything to indicate that in S6 or S7 – not until Carver introduced it as something unsavory in Sacrifice with Sam’s ‘you like a demon and an angel better than me’ speech.
ReplyDeleteI thought that was one of the main points of season 6. Remember Lisa shaming Dean for his relationship with Sam and saying she'd never bring her sister back from the dead? Endless time was spent on Sam not being Sam, Dean doing anything (including deals with the king of Hell) to bring his Sam back, Dean killing himself to bring Sam back.
The biggest problem for me at that point, and in season 5, is that the show always went back to the idea that this was a good thing. Dean being abused by his father, Dean sacrificing everything for Sam, Dean having no one else in his life? It's OK, because he and Sam played with toy soldiers and had a cool car. Dean literally beaten out of making his own choice so that he can watch Sam commit suicide? Ultimate in brotherly love. Dean becoming distanced from Bobby and Cas, literally wiping away Lisa and Ben? It's OK, because Sam needs him.
I'm not saying it's better now, because I don't think the show has treated the material, especially Sam's POV, with enough respect, but I do think the toxicity of this relationship has been there throughout each season since season 4, and started bubbling up a few seasons earlier.
I want Sam and Dean to be close, but I didn't like the closeness they had from season 4 on. The spark wasn't there for me anymore, and the way the show destroyed everything around them as some bizarre effigy for a relationship that mostly involved lies and secrets and betrayals was something that took away many of my happy memories of the first few days.
I keep hoping this will finally be dealt with in a proper way, although I'm not holding out a lot of hope.
If the writing team and leadership were better, then I think 23 episodes would be fine, but I just don't feel this team can handle the number of episodes. There are so very few episodes that advance the plot in the past few seasons.
ReplyDeleteWell, you said you could never move past Sam choking Dean so that's why you never cared for the relationship anymore. It has been forever tainted in your eyes by that one act.
ReplyDeleteI saw no toxicity to their relationship. I think their dynamic was fine. Was it completely healthy - their mutual (at the time) willingness to sacrifice themselves for each other? No, but it's a tv show so I didn't (and don't) care. I liked that Sam took on Hell memories for Dean. I liked that Dean died to visit Death to retrieve his brother's soul. Those are the aspects of the show I enjoyed and that I don't believe needed to be changed. I'm not interested in Carver's version of the show or the boys, but that's just me.
Definitely. I guess what I feel is that if they had 10 episodes, we'd get plot in 3. Kripke and Kim Manners were able to plot those first 2 seasons tightly. The third and fourth as well, to a lesser degree. Ever since then, it's just been a mess, where you get a lot of filler and then a ton of plot in 3-4 episodes. I thought the first half would be filler because the back half wouldn't be, and that's not entirely untrue (Road Trip, First Born, and Captives all had major plot movement, so that's 3 out of 5), but it's just that the filler episodes aren't good enough to make up for just being filler. I wish they'd invest more in making the MOTW episodes more fun or exciting like the first few seasons. Season 7 was the only recent season where they seemed to focus effort on MOTW episodes.
ReplyDeleteI posted this on another site, but I think it is appropriate here. Any writer at the network TV level in their careers should be able to do this.
ReplyDeleteHow difficult is it to outline a primary story with a quest that will develop the main characters and change the existing status quo?
How difficult is it to develop a secondary story that develops the secondary characters and leaves a direction open for the next season?
How difficult is it to choose a number of stand-alone stories, each of which is designed to add some knowledge to the overall plot, provide some character development that reinforces the primary character’s quest, and throw in some new interaction, experience or weaponry to deal with things further down the line?
Any good storyteller should be able to do that, whether they are writing a novel, scripting a movie, or planning a season for a TV show.
The Winchesters barely knew anyone Cas interacted with last season (they never knew of Naomi until episode 19, they only met Samandriel very briefly), and he wasn't a third lead at that point, at least not in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI think they have him in his own story because it gives Jared and Jensen a little more of a break, and it's all leading to the same goal at the end of the season. Metatron, finding Metatron, which involves everyone.
They haven't given Sam's POV enough time but we tend to see quite a bit of him in most episodes, on a consistent basis. I think that's what they see as lead.
Sam has made it. He has said, Dean, I don't want you to bring me back from the dead. I don't want you to hurt other people to bring me back. And Dean has said he doesn't regret his actions and would do it again.
ReplyDeleteI think he cares about Dean and is trying to fight that because he doesn't want to go back to where they were at the start of this season.
It's not well told but I feel like this is where he's coming from.
It kills me to admit that I agree with most of the Gripe Review.
ReplyDeleteThat would be interesting. I have a feeling if Dean goes he may be turning into a demon or something.
ReplyDeleteHow difficult is it to outline a primary story with a quest that will develop the main characters and change the existing status quo?
ReplyDeleteHow difficult is it to develop a secondary story that develops the secondary characters and leaves a direction open for the next season?
I feel like SPN has done both of these this season. The problem is, as is also true for many other shows, the execution isn't what it could be.
Well, you said you could never move past Sam choking Dean so that's why you never cared for the relationship anymore. It has been forever tainted in your eyes by that one act.
ReplyDeleteI could never move past it because the show never moved past it. Dean was told to suck it up. End of story. If it had ever been addressed I would have been less upset.
As it is, I still care about their relationship. I just don't believe that it was a functional, or particularly well-written relationship before Carver. I also don't think the writing ever had enough trust in them to write them as being in a good place. Any time they should have been, you had nonsense like Amy Pond. I don't agree with how Carver has handled some of this, especially Sam's POV, but I feel like much of it was already there.
I saw no toxicity to their relationship. I think their dynamic was fine. Was it completely healthy - their mutual (at the time) willingness to sacrifice themselves for each other? No, but it's a tv show so I didn't (and don't) care. I liked that Sam took on Hell memories for Dean. I liked that Dean died to visit Death to retrieve his brother's soul.
I can respect that view. What I'm talking about is how the show phrased it. The show had Lisa shame Dean for his relationship with Sam. She was disturbed and she wanted him away from her and her son. The show had Death shame Dean for his need to put Sam above all else.
So they simultaneously chastised and reinforced the "brotherly bond." They wanted it both ways. And it seemed to continue on and on that way. I feel like that's part of what Carver is trying to break. I just wish they would do better with Sam because that's the main weakness in this for me.
Oh. I thought there was another point you were saying Sam was trying to make.
ReplyDeleteYes, Dean said he would do it again, but I never took that to mean he would let Kevin die again. It's not like Dean chose Sam over Kevin b/c Dean didn't know kevin was going to die. That was an unexpected consequence of Dean's actions. So, when Dean says he would do it again, I think he's referencing saving Sam's life via possession. Because Dean could have Sam possessed but ignore GadZeke and tell Sam what he did and let Sam decide if he wants to remain in GadZeke's control. Or Dean could inform Kevin of Sam's condition or send Kevin away.
But as you said, this story is not being well-told so maybe we're both wrong. Who knows?
Lisa came off like a bitch in that scene - at least to many of us over on the CW boards. She hated Sam from the moment she saw him, and she had never even had a conversation w/him. I didn't care what Lisa thought of Dean or his relationship w/his brother. Her criticism of a relationship she couldn't even begin to understand made her all the more dislikable and downright hateable IMO. That's why no one cared when she left.
ReplyDeleteApparently, it is quite difficult for this team!
ReplyDeleteDean never intended to choose Sam over Kevin, but the consequences of his lie (a lie to protect Sam) killed Kevin. Metatron likely would have killed Kevin anyway, but the way it happened was built on the Gadreel lie.
ReplyDeleteI think that's what Sam is worried about. Dean doesn't intend to hurt anyone else. These decisions do so anyway.
I see what you're saying, but, when I think about it - what if Lisa had stayed with Dean, and several episodes later, she saw him commit suicide for Sam, and something went wrong, and Dean never came back? So I sort of understood her point.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the show was having her say those things to pay lip service. The message just confused me.
This was during Sera's era, and unlike Carver, I believe she bought into Kripke's version of the show so I don't think we were supposed to agree w/Lisa. I think we were supposed to see how ill. -suited Lisa was as a partner to Dean. If she cannot understand the depth of his love for Sam who is sometimes more like a son than a brother to Dean, then she cannot understand or be with Dean on a long-term basis. It also means that Dean either shut off parts of himself to her or she failed to understand anything he said to her about the way they grew up.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, they weren't good together. It's best they split up. I don't think we were supposed to take anything she said seriously
I see your point. I was never sure how to feel about Lisa, because I got the feeling Sera liked her (she created her, reintroduced her after a lengthy absence, and she didn't kill her off, the way she did many other characters in that timeframe), but I can see how she was seen as being in the wrong by fans. Death saying the same thing makes me wonder, but I don't know how to react.
ReplyDeleteI can see why brother fans are upset by what Carver is doing. I miss the old brother relationship too, I just miss the season 1 incarnation most of all. And I don't like what they've done with Sam. It's a disappointment. It's probably why I spend so much time here defending his character.
I didn't like Lisa. I thought she was fine in S3, but her re-introduction in S5 felt clunky and honestly, unbelievable. We hadn't seen or hard from Lisa in three years, but were expected to believe Dean was in love w/her or something. That line about thinking of her when he dreams of being happy just came out of nowhere for me. And then in S6, she was like a Stepford Wife. She just never felt real after S3.
ReplyDeleteThat would be interesting!
ReplyDeleteI think it would be a good cliffhanger to have Dean take off to kill Abaddon, and Cas and Sam track him down, and he's standing in a room alone. They ask him what happened, and he smirks and says, "I had a good ol' time" (or something like that) and his eyes turn black.
ReplyDeleteI agree with lala2 on this one, except I think we were supposed to see through that story that Dean was ill-suited to a normal life; that he would always be a hunter. I fully understand the confusion about Lisa, though, because I felt SG really did like her and liked parking Dean with her, but she never fully committed to either side of the story. I had the feeling that at first, it was that Dean was uncomfortable in that life, then he seemed like he was committed to her and trying every way to make it work, then off again, and in the end, I felt that Dean was deeply in love with her. I don't think the fans were ever supposed to feel that way, though, but I sure did.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day though, anything they do could unknowingly lead to a friend or ally's death. Remember those random victims (incl. Sarah) that Crowley killed last year just b/c he could? At some point,the boys will have to learn to forgive themselves or they will just die under the weight of the guilt.
ReplyDeleteNow, I know this situation was different, but I believe Dean would have made different decisions re: Kevin if he could go back and do it again. But as I said before, I could be wrong. Who knows anymore?
Hmmm . . . that could be interesting. And Sam knows how to cure demons so I guess Sam could cure him assuming he wouldn't just knife him and go about his business.
ReplyDeleteKidding . . . I'm kidding . . . but only slightly! I honestly don't know what Carver's Sam would do in that situation.
I agree, but I think this case weighs on Sam more because he so desperately feared hurting or killing someone else because of his existence.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it really hasn't been that long regarding the Sam and Dean conflict.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point of including it then? I have no idea. Maybe it was to show them as war veterans sharing past stories - and how it affected where they were now. Maybe it was to show how far Castiel had come as a character. Maybe it was a lame attempt to give Bart a semblance of a personality. Or maybe they had to fill 40 minutes of airtime and didn't have enough material.
I think they were showing the differences in Cas then and now. At that time he was a torturer and butcher who would do anything to win battles. Now he won't go that far.
I'd end it with Dean bringing himself back, but yes, Sam capturing him and helping him see who he is would be nice.
ReplyDeleteBut can one bring themselves back from demon possession though?
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Let's hope the boys actually have a real discussion at some point.
ReplyDeleteTo me, Supernatural has been told through Dean's eyes since day 1. The people I chat with have no idea what Sam is truly thinking or feeling because we never see it. We know Sam is angry and broken gives extremely harsh speeches and then makes snide comments or walks away without further discussion. I don't consider that mature at all. I want to see what is going on with Sam in his room, what is he doing. We get to see Dean in his room listening to music. At this point TPTB should be writing episodes that are going to give us Sam's POV and what is really going on with him. There is more involved then what we see but again no Sam POV. It is unfair to Sam in so many ways.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. We need Sam's POV and soon.
ReplyDeleteI hope the MOC storyline is wrapped up by the end of Season 9 by Sam saving Dean. We could get some great Sam POV in those last episodes and Dean can see how important he really is to Sam.
ReplyDeletePlease be kidding. That would be horrible.
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree w/you. I don't think we'll be getting Demon!Dean either. I was just speculating on how Sam could help Dean if Dean found himself possessed.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we'll see Sam saving Dean anytime soon though. I don't know what's going to happen w/the MOC but since that is the ONLY interesting story left, I hope we get some movement w/it.
I'm not sure how I feel. I kind of wish the MOC story carries over into S10 b/c I feel if it's wrapped up this year, S10 will just be another season of brotherly conflict for the sake of conflict. If this conflict carries over, it will feel less contrived if another brand new conflict is introduced next year.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . a lot of brother fans like myself are upset. This conflict sucks and is not interesting to watch, esp. w/the way it's being written.
ReplyDeleteI usually find myself defending Sam too but I just couldn't do so after those speeches he gave. They were truly horrible to me and put a nail in the "brotherhood" coffin. That relationship is beyond dead to me at this point.
I worry that the speeches Sam got expressed his true feelings under Carver, and that he truly sees Dean as a massive screw up who has ruined his life. That really bothers me b/c that's not the Sam I've come to know over the past 7 years. I honestly feel as if Carver is destroying a character I loved - all in the name of a maturity I have yet to see.
I just don't like anything Carver has done during his run as showrunner. To me, the show is in a ditch. I know I'm repeating myself all over the place, but I'm not enjoying Carver's Supernatural.
I agree 100% with you Peter on those points about Dean sacrificing everything for Sam and how it got irritating. That's why when I started these reviews I separated the "brotherly love" from the "toxic codependency." Pretty much everything you explained - Dean killing himself for Sam, Dean being cheated out of his choice, having to let go of Lisa and Ben, having to distance himself from everyone - was the codependency. The brotherly love were moments like A Very Supernatural Christmas and the bitch/jerk jokes and the wink Dean gave Sam in Point of No Return before saying no to Michael.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Carver sadly is that he is killing the brotherly love and fanning the codependency. Sam wouldn't look for Dean when he goes to Purgatory, and wouldn't show relief and happiness when he comes back. They scrap all that (brotherly love) yet we still have Dean killing Benny for Sam and checking his brain at the door to let an angel possess him just to keep him alive (codependency.) So in a way Carver stripped the relationship out of everything that was good about it and kept everything that was bad.
Personally I was ok with the good and bad in the earlier seasons because I was always under the impression that Sam would be the one who would eventually steer Dean away from the toxicity of his dependency. Unfortunately my prediction came true in the opposite way. Meaning Sam now seems to shun the family bond yet still want the codependency and isolation, the very thing that got them into the mess they are in the first place.
Thanks for the detailed and insightful comment. It's interesting to read another's take on the gripes. I agree with a lot of what you say.
ReplyDeleteGripe #1: You said it yourself. We're approaching episode 18 and beyond. Knowing that the next episode was a filler I had presumed this episode would be the one that would start converging the stories. Sam and Dean however are still as oblivious about what's going on in the supernatural world around them as they were in episode one. And yes, the biggest problem is that they aren't actively involved in the mythology, neither are they on anyone's radar, unlike Crowley and Castiel.
Gripe #2: This problem jumped at me the moment the episode started. We find out there was a rebel faction whose leader just died and somehow this all is important to the plot even though we're just hearing about it. Barty might have said some things that were addressed in his previous appearance. But the important parts of the angel story were about events and characters we had never heard about. I think we were supposed to care for the angel Castiel met at the cemetery, the one who later got captured and tortured by Barty. Yet we only just met him and don't even know what he or his faction stands for,. How are we supposed to care what happens to him? And they even called the episode Captives, referring to a concept we only heard Barty talk about once among the other million boring things he said in his endless monologue. So the parts that mattered were exactly the parts that happened off camera, or at least that's how it appeared to me.
Gripe #3: I agree that Barty, Naomi and Dick Roman's stories may not be comparable in detail. What I meant however was how each in a way ended prematurely without having a lasting impact on the overall story. Compare that to Lilith's death, which finished the 66 seals' arc and set the stage for the apocalypse plot and you'll see what I mean.
Gripe #4: I wanted to mention some of the season 1 episodes, particularly Bloody Mary, Asylum and Provenance. But I figured everyone would know what I'm talking about. Why can't we have a character like Doc Benton or Alistair who would fit the genre and not be a loser for a change?
Gripe #5: I mentioned what I feared they'd do at the end of that section. I'm fine if they take their time if they handle it right at the end. Unfortunately what I'm worried about is yet another shift in the story that would sweep everything under the carpet and close the tale with no real resolution or coherent progress. The Dean-Cas conflict was one example. Another was the rift between the brothers last season that was conveniently shoved aside in favor of the trials storyline.
And yes, I both had problems with Kevin calling the conflict stupid - after presumably watching how deep it went and what fundamentally problematic issues it addressed - and with Dean having the guilty talk for the gazillionth time, which means no character development on his part. But like I said, there were too many gripes for this episode and not enough room for all of them.
I personally like the idea of Cas as a third lead, mainly because I love his interactions with the brothers. I find the show more entertaining when he's around. But that's also the crux of the problem. I like him on the show when he is around the brothers doing things with them on screen and interacting and bouncing off of them with his unique sense of wonder and wisdom. Having him on his own, going off to some story and having character development or regression or what not, just isn't fun to watch. It makes no difference whether it's a trivial story like his human stint or the very heart of the mythology, as this angel story presumably is.
ReplyDeleteIt used to be I looked forward to the show for the Sam and Dean bitch/jerk bits and brotherly talks, the Dean and Cas odd couple antics, and perhaps a hope for Sam and Cas to develop something unique along the same lines. Now these characters are all so far apart they might as well each star in their own show.
John did. I think Bobby did too.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we'll see demon Dean either, it's just that I feel like some of this has been building for an eternity, long before this season, and it's not just emotional, but also memories of Hell, torture, etc. I feel like there have been hints of Dean being drawn back into that. But whether that's true, I don't know. I could see it ending the way you mention.
ReplyDeleteI want Sam to save Dean but I don't want it to be in the "they have nothing but each other," way, I'd like it to be mutual love but also self-worth and a larger family (of course almost everyone they know is dead, but they could have someone appear, surely).
Not sure that was it. They were talking about early season 6 Castiel - the one who still had qualms about fighting. The point Bart makes quite explicitly is that the other leaders of the resistance wanted Cas's focus elsewhere precisely because he wouldn't be able to butcher the prisoners.
ReplyDeleteI sometimes feel like the show is terrified of them having an actual lengthy conversation.
ReplyDeleteI think he regrets that he's obviously hurt Dean, but he won't take that back, because he can't give ground. I think a part of Sam at this point resents the hell out of Dean (and we are seeing that in some of his digs at Dean) but he also resents that he still cares so much about Dean. I just wish we saw some of this.
ReplyDeleteI looked forward to some of that too, but most of it was destroyed in seasons 4-6 so I just don't really expect it now. I do think we get some of it, still - there have been some beautiful Dean/Cas scenes this season, and a little with Sam and Cas. Hopefully some with Sam and Dean soon (although bitch/jerk hasn't been around since season 2).
ReplyDeleteGenerally I don't think they are as far apart as they seemed in this episode.
I don't think they are saying that Sam sees Dean that way - I think they have Sam genuinely believing he can help Dean, if Dean lets him, and that he cares about Dean, loves Dean. With that said, it is not being expressed well onscreen. The lack of POV kills Sam's characterization, because we just see him being short with Dean or giving cold speeches.
ReplyDeleteSomeone pointed out that in the first season Sam was sort of like this - he was blunt and he didn't put up with any crap. I guess the difference is that Sam also clearly loved his brother. We don't get that now, even though I do believe Sam loves Dean.
I miss the brother moments too. I just haven't really felt them in a long time. There have been scenes where I was so moved by the chemistry between the two Js, like the whole "don't say that to me...not you, of all people" scene in PONR, but otherwise it's been something I felt like was show-not-tell for years.
ReplyDeleteI was upset by much of what Dean did at the end of last season and the start of this season because I was afraid they were saying he was doing the right thing. Once I realized they weren't saying that, I wasn't as upset, because I felt like it was showing a sickness, one that should be broken.
I do think Sam cares about Dean, and I don't think they are intending to fully break the bond between Sam and Dean. For some reason they just won't show much of Sam's love and care for his brother. I don't know why. I feel like the point of this is to ultimately have Dean and Sam close, but not in a toxic way, yet that isn't as well set up as it should be.
I actually have much less of a problem with Sam's behavior this season than I do last season. I simply didn't believe he wouldn't look for Dean and Kevin. This time around, I can believe his reactions to Dean. He wants to be around Dean but he doesn't want to trust or to express very much because he's afraid it will encourage Dean's worst habits. But, again, as long as we don't see moments where he really is concerned for Dean and loves Dean, it's not going to work.
That's what got Cas started to where he was at the end of season 6, though. It was a slippery slope. Cas torturing and killing that angel they'd captured would have put him on the same path.
ReplyDeleteI think we were supposed to care for the angel Castiel met at the cemetery, the one who later got captured and tortured by Barty. Yet we only just met him and don't even know what he or his faction stands for,. How are we supposed to care what happens to him?
ReplyDeleteHe was a symbol, not a character. He represented the possibility of Cas returning to the days of seeing what he did as a slaughterhouse, of ends-justify-the-means. We were supposed to care about whether Cas would go back down that road.
I am glad that you, and perhaps others, are following it; because I at over halfway through the season, I am still wondering what the A-story is and what the B-story is.
ReplyDeleteIf the A-story is the angel war, then that is happening off-screen and a support character has just been moved into taking the lead in that. So far, the Winchesters are not involved in that at all.
If the A-story is the Winchesters coming of age story, I am of the opinion that that one was wrapped up in Swan Song and I did not see any development of that in S6, S7, or S8, nor does it have anything to do with the supernatural at this point, which is what the show is supposed to be about.
The B-plot may be the demon war, although the showrunner said the A story would be the angel and demon war. If this is the case, it is also all happening off-screen and the last I heard of that was that Crowley had turned it into a presidential campaign to see who would win the right to lead Hell. It appears at this time, though, that the B-plot will be a version of a coming of age story for Crowley.
I feel the A story should be a quest for the heroes and it should develop or change their characters in some way. The B story should be for the support characters and they should be developed along the way, but they should also be tied to the leads and their story in some way. The MotW stand-alones should still have something to do with the leads of the show. There should be more purpose to them than showcasing a recurring guest and/or giving homage to a one or two time appearing guest. I saw Kevin's death as contributing to this season's story, especially since Kevin's character had served it's purpose. I liked how they used his death to further Sam and Dean's story. I did not need to have Mrs. Trans' story wrapped up. She was insignificant to anything connected to the A-story or the B-story this season and I have no investment in her as a character nor in her protective love for her son.
There is a lot they could have done with Mrs. Tran here that the writers chose not to do. She had sold her soul for her son, the same as Dean had sold his soul for Sam. She could have served as a reminder of Mary, Dean's love for his mother and how her death lead the brothers to the life and losses they have suffered. They could have had Sam realize that aspect of Dean's personality and how his bond with family is different. There are a lot of different angles the writers could have taken with Mrs. Tran's character to further the Winchester story this season, but they did not.
As it was, the episode was focused on characters that I have no vested interestin, barely saw, and most of them we will never see again. I do think Mrs. Tran and Kevin will show up again, as the writers obviously do have some interest in them.
I'm w/ you on this that Sam's behavior toward Dean in S4 was never addressed. Sam was terribly upset and regret his actions but only in freeing Lucifer and its consequences, not in how lowly he treated Dean or even choked him. Funny, Dean himself never thought he should be apologized to, they all acted like Sam was possessed and couldn't be accounted for his actions about Dean.
ReplyDeleteBut I believe Bobby and the show didn't mean to say that Dean was wrong, Bobby in his tough love speech told Dean he was the older and should be the wiser there (sth I've heard lots of times myself, duh!). I think they intended to show Dean was ready to help his brother by any means, even if he has to step on his pride. (sth I've never accepted *grin*)
Like you said, if it wasn't for what he said in PONR, "... you of people don't say that", I'd never felt that Sam has any respect for Dean, love yes but respect no. Most of it is b/c of the plot lines, Sam usually is the one screws up or is in trouble, so we hardly saw the same the devotion from him, and the times he was angry w/ Dean, unlike Dean, he set rules and said do this or I'm out.
At first I was hoping Carver was intending to fix these things, but what he did was even worse. At least before there was no doubt that they loved each other, and frankly I liked how they were willing to go extreme to save each other.
Well, I guess we can agree that the story is not being written well, and that the lack of POV for Sam is killing the character and the story.
ReplyDeleteNow these characters are all so far apart they might as well each star in their own show.
ReplyDeleteTrue!
I think he regrets that he's obviously hurt Dean, but he won't take that back, because he can't give ground.
ReplyDeleteSee? None of this mature, IMO, esp. for a guy who is 30-years old. If he knows Dean misunderstood him, then why wouldn't he want to clarify his point and make sure Dean understands exactly why he's upset w/him?!?!
Probably, but these past two "chats" have been completely unproductive and pointless in my mind.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah. But those possessions were pretty short, right? We're speculating that he would be possessed for months, right?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I would be okay w/Dean saving himself but I must say that takes much of the fun of the show away from a viewer like me. I like seeing the boys save each other, but I wouldn't be shocked if Carver never had them save each other again.
I definitely think you should watch because you may get a different impression than me. In my opinion, the writing is not doing Sam any favors but some like what he's saying.
ReplyDeleteOh, I couldn't agree more with you. If they wanted to have Dean have a relationship, they should have brought on someone new for him. To write a story around Lisa like she was some great love Dean had was ridiculous. As you said, she should have remained a one off!
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen the ep, but honestly, what is Kevin going to do from where he's at? Why worry about things you can't do anything about yourself. He knows Sam and Dean are too wrapped up in their own drama to do anything, esp. since they seem to need Crowley's help for whatever the hell this season's about,
ReplyDeleteSecond paragraph - I'm in exactly the same spot.
ReplyDeleteI thought if they were gonna go the route they did with Dean and a woman, they should've introduced an entirely new character. Someone we could see him begin a real relationship with. Someone we'd believe Sam would send him to when he knew he was going to be gone at the end of season five. Lisa was nothing but a one off. Should've stayed that way.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you. I've missed the last three episodes, have them on my computer, and am just not feeling compelled to watch any of them. I keep reading here how horrible Sam's been. It's hard to go to the mat for someone being written as a complete jagoff.
ReplyDelete