We don't exactly know how the outcome of the trials has affected Sam's mental and physical health, but it's important to think about it in terms of kick-starting season 9.
Obviously, there won't be a magical cure to make him feel better, and if so, it would certainly take all the drama away from the story. Unlike his hallucinations in season 7, which were cured with Castiel's help, no one has the ability to help him now. The damage is quite extensive and the most likely choice is to find a cure or to find God, which would take another season. Right now, it doesn't look very good for the Boy King.
The past
Season 8 has given Sam a human story, exposing his desires to have a normal life, which collided with Dean's desires to have his brother by his side. Amelia's story is not exactly the best way to do that, and the fact that the show let her disappear into the never-be-mentioned-nirvana is quite telling. Both Benny and Amelia were plot-devices used to highlight the conflict between the brothers in the first half of season 8. The problems were contrived, given the fact that Sam didn't look for Dean in the first place. It's a choice that I consider widely out of character for him, but there is nothing fans can do about it now. On top of that, his resentment of Benny didn't really feel organic at all. Sam used to be someone who could see the good in people, be it monsters or not. If the show brings Benny back, I would like to see Sam and Benny interacting on a level that shows more acceptance between them. Benny is very popular and alienating Sam from popular characters never really works.Men of Letters
I've been waiting for a story that connects Sam's wish to be normal with the supernatural aspect. The show managed to give Sam exactly that. It gave him a home and a destiny to fulfill; something that makes him feel worthy.It is a legacy passed on by Henry Winchester, which connects both brothers to the mythology, although Sam's affinity for researching gives him a bit of an edge. The MoL were researchers and not hunters, after all. It's no wonder Sam thrives in an academic environment and it's refreshing to see him enjoying things once in a while. He has a home and it gives him a feeling of normalcy. Bonus: He has Dean by his side.
Friends
Sam grew up in an environment where his independence was compromised in favor of doing the family business. He's a character who actively searches for his place in the world, and he doesn't shy away from wanting something for himself. It's much healthier than Dean's attitude, but it still causes problems when the show refuses to give him more friends to interact with.
He's close to Jody Mills and is on friendly terms with Kevin, Charlie, Castiel and Garth, but not many people put him first. We don't see how his mind works, what his desires and hopes for the future are. Saying he wants normal is not the same as discovering why he wants it in the first place. We didn't even see his room in the bunker, which is a stark contrast to Dean's emotional exposure.
It's difficult to relate to Sam when we don't even know what makes him tick.
And that is something that will hopefully be addressed in season 9. The previous season continued isolating him from other people, while Dean got to interact with others. Sam's character flaws are only highlighted with contrived conflicts, and it doesn't help that people get the impression that "he's selfish", "he is jealous", "he doesn't put Dean first". Isolating him from Dean and other people just brings out the worst in him, and I don't see the point in showing how he didn't even bother to look for Dean. Sam Winchester is much better than that. He actively wants to be a better person. He also wants to be "pure" and not tainted by demon blood or other external flaws, which brings us to another issue.
Strength
People always say how Dean is the one with an extreme lack of self-worth, but I would argue that he's not the only one. Sam sees himself as a monster, a constant failure to the most important person in his life. Giving him one illness after another (demon blood, no soul, hallucinations, trials) doesn't help in that regard. It's like kicking a person who's already down.I see no point in a storyline that constantly exposes weaknesses instead of strength, which is why I would have enjoyed seeing Sam trying to save Dean from Purgatory.
It would certainly be interesting to see how Sam overcomes his illness and manages to help Dean. He can be just as much of a support system as his brother. And it helps him with his issues, including his constant belief that he's nothing but a disappointment to others. A success gives him the confidence he needs and the emotional exposure he deserves.
Season 9
You said: "Bonus: He has Dean by his side.", I contend since he did not care enough to look for him, so what..Dean by his side helps Dean, not Sam. Yeah I am still hurting from this, and still think Sam was NOT Sam in season 8. If something is not going to come from this, why was it brought up so often, by different characters?
ReplyDeleteAnd the fans not being able to do anything about it..wrong..I will wait to buy a USED copy of season 8..just my small protest. ;)
I have enjoyed your articles, keep them coming.
From a business POV fans can definitely do something about it. Sadly, canon is canon. Maybe we can just... forget about it :D
ReplyDeleteBobby will save him. If the what Jensen says is true "bring Bobby back", then, while Bobby is not an Angel the Angels falling from heaven will play into it and since Bobby went from hell to being released to heaven I think the writers may use this route.
ReplyDeleteIs it just a rumor that Bobby will be back or fact?
ReplyDeleteI am not going to forget the 7 years of Sam ALWAYS looking for and helping Dean, just because some writer says, Sam "ran, hit dog, met girl" that is so lame. ;) He did not have to get him out, but the "real" Sam would have looked, just like Dean did in season 6.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. With writing decisions like these I usually use an eraser in my mind. Otherwise I would be unhappy all the time. It's a major problem, though. Not one that can be easily forgotten.
ReplyDeleteOnly going by what Jensen Ackles has said, he went to the writers and said we need to go back to some basics that includes bringing Bobby back (I think pressure from fans on this one). So I hope they listen to him and the fans!
ReplyDeleteah okay. thanks :)
ReplyDeleteThe thought of them having some 'Sam's New Friend' directive makes me feel iffy, probably because it'll be coming from the same crack writing team that brought us the Manufactured For Conflict Amelia and Benny. It would be nice for there to be at least one character that has a closer connection to Sam than Dean (who was even the last one before Amelia--and she never even met Dean--that lasted more than one episode? Lucifer? And Ruby?) but I even moreso hope they deepen his relationships with the roster of recurring characters already there. There's no reason at all he has to exit stage left every time emotional exploration and character depth revealing scenes come about, episode after episode after episode.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, I really just want a storyline that highlights the lengths to which Sam will go to keep Dean safe and in his life; as much as I eat up brotherly stuff and enjoyed that aspect of the end of S8, I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind how much Dean is willing to sacrifice for his brother, but after the mess that was Sam's characterization at the beginning of the season, IMO we really need to see the reciprocity there laid out plainly.
Very nice article! I've always thought that since season six (where it was done *on purpose*) that Sam and Dean's world was incredibly small. But, in this season I think it became even more obvious that Sam is the most isolated character in the series. Sam needs his brother and Dean needs him, but they need more that *just* each other. A group of friends that they either share of have personally is a good thing. Not just because it's healthy (I know some people argue (though I don't necessarily agree) it's just a show so it doesn't need to be healthy.) but it goes beyond that. The more characters Sam has to interact with who aren't Dean, the more we will learn about Sam. This does not need to be at the expense of Dean or Sam's relationship with Dean.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we know a lot about Sam and Dean's relationship. I'd love to see how Sam gets along with other people as well. I'd love for the show to give Sam some friends who don't have any hidden agendas and like Sam for Sam. I'd love to see Sam succeed so he doesn't feel like he lets Dean down. And yes, I'd love to get more into Sam's head space. I realize the show loves for Sam to be the action man and Dean to have the emotional story, but I think a good balance for both of them would only make things that much better. I have hope for a good Team Free Will story next season. Sam, Dean, Castiel, and everyone they've connected with along the way against whatever the big bad will be. (But please no making the show about guest stars and/or making S&D look stupid!) Not just Sam and Dean against the world. That's been done, and it was a bleak world indeed.
Sam's self-loathing is a huge problem which is almost never addressed. The show has never been able to properly write this, it's either other characters talking about how much Sam suffers, or Sam trying to do a heroic quest to prove himself. I'd like to believe the whole point of the trial story this season was to show that a big heroic suicidal quest does nothing to improve you and actually makes you much much worse.
ReplyDeleteSam needs to do something that proves he's not defined by a toxic destiny, and that he can actually accomplish a huge goal without having to die or sacrifice himself. He needs this so he can find some peace with himself.
And the show needs to write this in a way that isn't about the odious brother wars.
With Jim announcing his new movie CRIMSON PEAK, if Bobby come back it will only be in the first half of hte season since he starts filming in january in Toronto
ReplyDeleteOh, your articles are always amazing Veronika K. :) I really hope Sam can rest a little more in season 9, and of course, make new friends.
ReplyDeleteGood article, Veronika. I just feel like the writers are now stuck in this concrete mindset that they just can't get out of. Dean's role is to take care of and/or save Sam. Cas has good intentions but keeps screwing up. Sam ends up victimized every season by the supernatural. Lather, rinse, repeat.
ReplyDeleteI was really happy when Singer talked last summer about exploring Sam's human storyline in S8 because I thought that finally meant a change up in the formula. It's about time for Sam to just be regular Sam- not psychic kid, demon blood addict, powered up, Lucifer vessel, soulless, hallucinating Sam. But as soon as the trials rolled around, I knew that was it for regular Sam.
I think the show keeps losing these great opportunities to flesh out Sam's character by always focusing instead on these flashy storylines instead. It'd be a nice change in S9 if they moved away from limp and/or victim! Sam to an empowered human Sam. Give Sam some friends, the possibility of a future where he's not controlled by supernatural forces, and a storyline where he's a protective, supportive, loving brother to Dean. I think those things could go a long way in helping "fix" a lot of the discontent with his character after the first half of S8.
Thank you for this article. I agree with your opinions about Sam. We never see his point of view and we never see the roles reversed: Sam being Dean's caretaker.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to offer my opinions. Sam's main relationship is the one he has with Dean, I think it shouldn't be changed nor broken, it's the heart and soul of Supernatural. Sam and Dean should remain together, no matter how unhealthy or codepedent some think their behaviour is. They've been like this from the Pilot and this is what hooked most fans on the series. But as you said, Sam needs more friends or more interaction with the secondary characters, especially two important ones: Charlie and Castiel. Dean was very lovng with her, they connected instantly, why not connect with Sam too? Maybe in a different level but we need more interaction between them.
Castiel is a different matter. I have always been of the opinion he and Sam have a lot in common so a friendship between these two makes sense. If Cas must be around the brothers, it'd be interesting if the Sam/Cas relationship would be explored. Same with Benny.
As I've said many times, I hope the writers abstain from the fan service and tell the story.
Very true. But I don't see it changing anytime soon unfortunately :( I would dearly love to see it happen though!
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest: I wasn't crazy about season 8 at all. I loved the back story, but the fillers (with the exception of the MoL plot) and the constant bickering between Sam and Dean were horrible. I agree with the author of this article in that Sam was just not himself this time around. The continuous arguing between the brothers was nothing new, they lie and keep secrets from each other all the time. The only thing that was different was in the finale when Sam confessed what he thought was his biggest sin (feeling like he was disappointing his big brother all the time).
ReplyDeleteIn the other seasons, most of the filler episodes somehow tied into the back story nicely, which I always liked. There would be maybe one or two filler episodes that had nothing to do with the back-story (with the exception of seasons 1 and 2 when everybody was being introduced to the audience). Sadly, season 8 did not deliver nearly as well with its filler stories, most having nothing to do with the overall back-story with a couple having to do with other filler episodes from past seasons. Very disappointing.
All in all, season 8 was very different, then again, this season was done without Sera Gamble and Eric Kripke. I just read an article earlier that Jeremy Carver was also leaving to join Kripke to help with Kripke's new show "Revolution." That leaves Ben Edlund plus (rumor has it) a couple of other writers who had done past episodes are coming back (I don't remember their names, unfortunately). So, season 9 will definitely be interesting, but question is: interesting good? or interesting bad? I would love to see what they do with Crowley: since Sam did not finish the ritual, is his blood in Crowley's system only temporary where he'll be back to his old 'King-of-Hell' self again? I would also love to see how the angels who were unexpectedly and suddenly kicked out of heaven: how will they act/interact/react with all of humanity? Will Castiel be able to get his Grace and Essence back (we do know that Misha Collins will be a regular this time around). I am still hopeful and like the rest of #SPNFamily, I have invested a lot of time and emotions into this show.
Great article, Sam really needs more friends and more interactions, we need to know more about Sam thoughts and emotions, we got the chance lately with sacrifice episode to know a little about how Sam is broken inside and what he feel about himself and how he feel that he let Dean down, we need to have more from that more about Sam feelings because after all this years Sam still the mystery character who we don't know a lot about what he want and what he feels and what would make him feels better about himself and so on.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first I am hearing about this. Where did this info come from?
ReplyDeleteYou have that backward..Ben Edlund is the one leaving, although I would prefer it your way, get rid of Carver and keep Ben. I can only hope. ;)
ReplyDeleteEdlund is the one leaving to join Kripke on Revolution. Nothing has been said about Carver, so it's safe to assume for now, that he will remain showrunner along with Singer. Personally I think Singer is the problem. He has a very one-dimensional view of both Sam and Dean and keeps yanking them back to their rut mid-way through each season for the past three years.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of this, but I am looking back on the seasons, and what I also see is Dean has no support system. Everyone he has relied on is either dead or has betrayed him. All he has is Sam.
ReplyDeleteSo true and nicely said but the show also needs to make it clear that Sam is not some character that every season needs redemption otherwise his sacrifice in season 5 finale is negated .The first step is not to have him do something without actually telling a story and not shrug it off with 'Sam's rationale was Sam's rationale' and think that was enough. It was a depressing and dishearting move that Jeremy made and reminiscent of Eric Kripke's storytelling where Sam was concerned. I do not see either brother as beyond making mistakes or hurting the other it is the way people chose to interpret those things that makes the difference.
ReplyDeleteSam needs proper exploration and writing that supports how he feels but seeing though it took them 8 yrs for us and Dean to learn how unpure he felt from a child then unless they shift themselves abit more then we will be waiting a long time
Is it anything like the abominable snowman movie he was doing pre S7??:-)
ReplyDeleteGood article, especially the problematic way the writers always isolate Sam until his only support system is Dean, who lets face has boatload of his own issues in spite of having far more support system from people than Sam.
ReplyDeleteI never had a problem with Sam not looking for Dean because 1) Dean was presumingly dead and in heaven and 2) remember what happened last time when Sam didn't go on with his own life and tried to rescue/avenge Dean instead? And finally 3) Sam had spent over a year holding off insanity (thanks to Cas for breaking his mind wall), end up in a mental hospital prepared to die, only to lose Dean and everybody else a few months later. Whether you like her or not, Amelia did save Sam and took care of him.
Sam is by far the most self-sacrificing and selfless hero in television, and his actions are understandable even with the lack of pov. People throwing "selfish" and "jealous" at his character are projecting Dean's issues who admitted out loud that he is jealous of Sam's relations with Amelia along with his guilt for always dragging Sam back into the hunting life because he doesn't want to be alone. But that's not the real issue, is it now. It's the perceived lack of storyline or mytharc for Dean that got Dean fans/stans in lots of worry (and why they spam Sam/Jared articles when the opposite doesn't generally happen) and at the very least they want to see validation of Dean's place in Supernatural via Sam's adulation for Dean the way Dean adores Sam.
D'oh! *Face palm* Sorry, you're right; I got the writers names mixed up.
ReplyDeleteNot that I liked that Sam didn't look for Dean, but I don't find it as OOC or difficult to believe as others do. We got an explanation from Sam, his world imploded. Sam effectively collapsed and stopped in his tracks, an emotional paralysis from grief piled upon years of trauma and grief. After the initial collapse he found a way to put one foot in front of the other. I found this believable. Dean looked for Sam while Sam was in the cage; but Sam didn't know where Dean was. And Dean, like Sam, was miserable, but he managed to live a life, to find some pockets of comfort. They're better together, but they can in fact live without the other. The mistake SPN made in the story was not having Sam vocalize his feelings to Dean, tell Dean about what he went through, and we needed more Sam flashbacks, to the time before/right around when he hit the dog. That Sam hit the dog was NOT the explanation the canon gave, that was a deflection. "I hit a dog" as the dry understatement, covering the complete meltdown and emotional collapse and response to trauma Sam had.
ReplyDeleteThe Amelia story could've worked better if SPN weren't so timid about giving its supporting characters and relationships more staying power. Amelia could've been fleshed out way more if given the screentime. It dismayed me to see how disposable a character she was in the end. Benny served essentially the same function, as you said, a plot device to tell the story of the brothers' issues, and then gone. It's a shame because that's two more characters that could've added a lot, and this is in fact how we got into this bind with Sam being too isolated to begin with. Sam had someone he was close too not just Dean: Amelia...and what did SPN do with it. :/
Although Benny maybe isn't gone for good, since he has a natural connection into supernatural storylines, it might be easier to bring him back. If so, there are a lot more opportunities there--Sam and Benny interaction being one of them. There are a lot of unresolved issues there. I agree with you that Sam's become increasingly isolated, while Dean seems to connect with others and is the point person on formation of found family. This may have been deliberate on the part of the writers, part of his emotional state, but the end result just makes Sam seem too remote and even more of a cipher.
SPN has also defaulted one too many times to Sam suffering from some supernatural ailment or factor that affects his behavior. I was really happy to see Sam with a more human emotion based story in the first half, and worried when the trial illness showed up (I thought the trials themselves was a good plot choice for Sam, but not the illness). Somehow they managed to keep it character driven and actually revealing of Sam's inner life, but it was touch and go, and I think SPN definitely needs to spend more time on who Sam is as Sam, Sam's inner life and identity and...just Sam being Sam.
It surprised me that Season 8 didn't do more with Sam and Kevin. Also I think it's long overdue Sam and Castiel's friendship gets more development, something that won't take away from Sam and Dean or Dean and Castiel. The Sam and Dean and Castiel found family, with Kevin and Charlie--so many opportunities there. Sam and Dean each need people not just each other.
While I did feel like the brother conflicts in S8 arose organically from their issues and who they are as different people, S8 fell short in my hopes of the brothers finding more equal footing, and reverted to ill Sam and Dean his caretaker and Dean carrying Sam.
This, yes: "Sam and Dean are partners in crime, brothers and equals." So maybe S8, which did have some forward movement, was a step towards getting closer to this, clearing the air on some old issues? Hopefully S9 will find new notes to play for the brothers.
I think the parallel mostly comes from them both having good intentions, but making questionable decisions that result in "X" blowing up in their faces. When Cas made his deal w/Crowley in S6, he had good intentions. He wanted to stop Raphael and prevent the Apocalypse; however, despite his good intentions, the plan failed and had negative results. Similarly, Sam had good intentions in S4 in working w/Ruby and drinking DB to power up to kill Lilith, but the plan failed and had negative consequences.
ReplyDeleteFor that reason, many believe that Sam and Cas should be closer than they are as they can relate to each other. I believe Sam does relate to Cas on that level, and that's why he's always been willing to forgive.
I couldn't agree more w/you that Cas should have apologized to Sam - when Sam was awake and could hear it - for breaking the Wall. But then Sam and Castiel are not friends. Cas didn't retrieve Sam from the Cage for Sam; he did it for Dean and to make Dean happy so, in a way, it makes sense that he apologized to Dean.
I didn't really have a problem with Sam not looking for Dean the way some people did. I find it more problematic and troubling that he left a then seemingly helpless Kevin in the clutches of Crowley than I do with him not looking for Dean who is, as we saw in purgatory, an extremely capable hunter. Plus Sam knows Castiel would have been with him too, but who did Kevin have? I do think we saw Sam go above and beyond in redeeming himself for the selfishness in his earlier actions, so I really don't have a problem with it. Characters are sometimes flawed and imperfect and make mistakes. That's what makes them more real and relatable to me. I do think Supernatural could have done a better job in showing us Sam's state of mind and nervous emotional breakdown, and I wish Amelia had been a more likeable and sympathetic character, but I don't really have an issue with Sam's overall storyline in season 8. I just feel that in some areas they could have done a better job.
ReplyDeleteI hope they find some way to cure Sam of whatever is ailing him from the trials, and so we can see Sam come into his own person. I'd love to see him learn more about the MoL and I still see Sam's endgame as restarting the MoL and carrying on the Winchester family legacy. He's never wanted to live the hunter lifestyle forever, but he's inextricably tied to the supernatural. There's no way he can be entirely free of it, so I see the MoL as being a happy middle ground for Sam. It's a place where he can contribute to the hunter community, with preserving the lore, but he won't have to be constantly traveling and aimless. As a MoL he can make roots and settle down while running the organization. I see it as potentially the happiest ending for Sam should the show want to give us that instead of a more depressing ending.
My biggest wish for season 9 is to see Sam gain some strong friendships like Dean has with Castiel, Benny and Charlie. I love many of the secondary characters of Supernatural and I think we learn more about the brothers and see new sides to their characters when they have friendships with others. I think there's potential there with Kevin as Sam should be able to relate a lot to what Kevin is going through. I'd also dearly love it if they bring Sheriff Mills back again in season 9. I think there's good friendship potential there for Sam.
Anyway, while season 8 wasn't perfect, overall it's left me excited to see what will happen with Sam, Dean, Castiel and the rest. Go Team Free Will! :)
Sam forgives because he's Sam, not because he relates to Cas. Sam relates to the struggles of some monsters because they honestly don't want to hurt people. Cas has killed more innocent people than all the monsters the brothers hunted in 8 seasons.
ReplyDeleteSam was under the supernatural influence (demon blood, manipulations, etc) when he tried to save Dean and the world by stopping Lilith. Cas was stone cold sober and he was trying to remake the world to his own liking, stopping Raphael was a convenient excuse. Dean wasn't very concern about Raphael or the heaven civil war, after all neither he or Sam will consent to be vessels again should Raphael somehow break out Lucifer/Michael that heaven tried to do for thousands of years before.
Thank you so much for posting that Broken Crown video, that is awesome and I love Mumford & Sons, there is also one with the same song for Dean.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hfAOjJV77U
I respectfully disagree. I honestly think Sam was willing to forgive Cas in the beginning of S7 b/c he understood how Cas went down the wrong path. When he called out to Cas, he mentioned that he still believe Cas was "one of them." It makes sense to me for Sam to feel that way. He can understand how you can think you're making the right choices, but those choices end up being the wrong ones.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree w/you about Cas killing many more people than Sam. That said, I don't think Cas intentionally set out to do something evil. That may be where your mileage varies. I do think he wanted to stop Raphael and win Heaven's war to prevent the Apocalypse. Again, YMMV on that, but that's how I always saw it.
And that is sad, because Sam has betrayed him over and over. I wonder how he can keep trusting the people around him, Sam and Cas have both let him down.
ReplyDeleteLot of thoughts here. Just going to comment on one. Sam not having many friends isn't the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. The problem is that after season 5 the writing staff as a collective group (with a few exceptions) seemed to lose interest in writing character arcs for Sam. That doesn't mean that things didn't happen to him. It means that the writers were only covering them so far as writing how those things effected other people (Dean mostly), but dropped the coverage when it came time to show how they affected Sam.
ReplyDeleteA big example was the soullessness. The first half was focused almost exclusively on how Dean was dealing with Sam's soullessness. We didn't get a single episode told through Sam's POV. In the second half, we got Unforgiven and The Man Who Knew Too Much - both good episodes, but only two out of 22 in the season that focused on Sam's story. And when I say Sam's story, I mean the effect on Sam.
In season 7, the deep psychological torture became a handrub. Again, the writers had a big idea but lost interest when it came time to actually write it.
I made a comment once that everything that happened in seasons 6 and 7 was physical. The emotional element was stripped out. Sam's cage torture took on a physical form when his body came back soulless. The torture had a physical effect on Sam's soul and changed the texture of Sam's soul. Cas said it felt like it had been skinned alive. The hallucinations are a physical symptom to what is often a mental trauma. We saw a lot of the physical symptoms, but didn't experience emotional element of the trauma. In the end, Sam's trauma because a severe case of sleep deprivation (a physical condition), and Sam's trauma was physically removed from his soul and shifted into Castiel, and Sam was just fine after that.
If you strip the emotional character arc out of a character's story, you're left with only how that character's story affects other people. In short, you're left with a plot device.
The writers add support characters to tell a story. When Dabb & Loflin wrote Unforgiven, we saw Sam interacting with the Sheriff and with Samuel Campbell. When Kripke wrote The Man Who Knew Too Much, he added a bartender that Sam could talk to. The number of characters Sam has to talk to compared with Dean is proportional to the amount and effort the show puts into telling Sam's story, and again, I mean how things affect Sam.
I saw improvement in this regard this season. I think there were some serious missteps, and I can't say I agree with the way I think Carver sees Sam, but I'll give Carver credit for putting a lot more effort into trying to write a story for Sam than Gamble did in her two years.
So yes, I want to see Sam talking to more people, but I want that to be a reflection of the fact that the writers have a story about Sam that they want to tell.
Dean has hit Sam over and over again when Sam says something Dean doesn't like or disagree with. When Dean does or say something Sam doesn't like, Sam swallows his feeling - except when under supernatural influence; what's Dean's or Castiel's excuse? Dean and Cas have both let Sam down again and again.
ReplyDeleteYou see how pointless this is? I can do this all day.
Cas spent most of seasons 7 and 8 trying to own his mistakes. That's the whole reason he released the souls, why he took on Sam's wall, why he went with Dean and Sam to fight Dick Roman, why he tried to do what he thought would fix Heaven in season 8.
ReplyDeleteCas was literally controlled by Naomi. He was then manipulated by Metatron.
Even a lot of Sam fans said he was horribly regressed this last season.
Both Cas and Sam have killed others for what they thought was the right thing. They've also been willing to sacrifice innocents for what they think is the right thing.
The main reason people see the parallel is because the show repeatedly tells stories about how Sam and Cas are damaged and how they try to make this up somehow with large quests that rarely work out well.
Raphael would have laid waste to Earth, regardless of whether Dean was concerned.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that Sam was never at fault and Cas was always at fault is something I think cheapens both characters.
As skv 22 said, I think as long as Singer is there there will always be a basic problem. Even if Carver and Ben Edlund and any other writer/producer who is deemed as bad leaves en masse.
ReplyDeleteAlmost everyone has betrayed Dean, but I think the strength of Dean's character is seeing how he gets past it and allows himself to find new people.
ReplyDeleteI have been waiting for this thread :)
ReplyDeleteYes, it would've been interesting for Sam to get Dean out of purgotory. But that would more likely mean he's back on the blood to drag him up and Cas? he had no-one to help and trying to could've ended badly.
At first I thought Amelia was some kind of 'monster' behind the scene, but I accepted that she's not a supernatural one. It is good to see the brothers' have romances and we saw that Sam (and Dean) still can have normal life. However, I will not accept he didn't look for Dean apparently. I think he did, but not so long (understandibly..lack of resources!).
I think I get Sam's reaction of Benny. He's compassionate guy but not a idiot, at the end of the day he was a vampire and he dosen't know his intentions. It just shows it take time to warm up to monsters. Benny was still a good guy, I doubt the actor would be back but it was good to still some good monsters, he reminded me a bit of Leonore.
The men of letters storyline was fantastic and Dean will always be on his side and vice-versa.
That made me think of Sam's room, I think books scattered everywhere would cover it ;)
I would like Sam to have a friend, but he still socialise so its not disturbing. Crowley won't be friends with Sam, that was humorous in a dark way with him opening up with the finale.
I'm glad that Sam literally made it, I am really interested of how he will be in the next season. Its unlikely the sickness will go so a few possibilities. Cas or a cure would be the help, but it might go away naturally. Having said that the trial could still remain in contract until he does it or fight it off.
Love these threads!.
I wouldn't put it past the writers to just have Sam magically get better. That's what they did at the start of season 5 with his demon blood addiction.
ReplyDeleteI think the Amelia storyline could still be salvaged if the writers put an ounce of effort into it. Of course a bunch of fans would probably still hate it because that's what this fandom does. But I'd really like to see a female character treated right a little more often, you know? (Charlie is not enough). I'm still holding out hope for Amelia to show up again and find out about hunting.
And though Sam's attitude towards hunting/life in general has been incredibly inconsistent over the course of the series (in season 7 he said he felt he had done his time and was at peace, and then this season... what?) I do like the idea of hunting-vs.-having-a-normal-life and finding balance as theme on the show, and I hope it continues into season 9.
(Can I just say - I'm not sure where the idea that Sam is more of a researcher than Dean is really comes from? Yes, Sam is more of an academic, but when it comes to researching for cases, don't they tend to split the work evenly? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Sam-the-researcher seems like more of a fanon thing to me.)
I don't understand why the writers didn't show more of the state that Sam was in immediately after Dean disappeared. That he had reached a breaking point and just couldn't deal anymore makes sense to me, but they could have shown that rather than just having Sam say it. Also, Sam seeing "a light at the end of the tunnel" and wanting a normal life, and then suddenly being caught up in his past failures and not caring if he dies was really jarring to me. There must be some connection between the two states of mind, because he was very consciously written with each, but I don't think it was communicated effectively. Consistent characterization, and effectively communicating that characterization are two things that the writers need to work on with regards to Sam.
I would definitely like to see more of Sam&Kevin and Sam&Jody next season.
"Cas was stone cold sober and he was trying to remake the world to his own liking, stopping Raphael was a convenient excuse."
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about? Did you even watch 6x20? Raphael was the one who sparked the whole thing. You can't ignore canon just because you dislike Cas.
Exactly. The whole point of Sam's arc was that he made the wrong choices for the right reasons. If you invalidate his agency, then you invalidate the value of his choices and the power of his entire arc.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading this, as I have all of your articles on here thus far! I think it would be great to see Sam bonding with Benny, or Kevin, or an entirely new (fleshed-out and awesome character). Or to see Sam and Castiel's friendship developed further. Cas is an important part of Sam and Dean's life and it would be nice to see him and Sam having some fun together, as well as him and Dean. Team Free Will fun time! Yeah, I doubt it will happen, but the heart wants what the heart wants and this heart wants one or two scenes of the three of them just having a good time at the MOL bunker, or just sharing a meal together or a holiday or something nice there. Can't they all three have something nice for once? :)
ReplyDeleteAnd I really just pretty much agree with all that you said. Sam Winchester is a beautiful, flawed, wonderful character and I hope that the writers don't let him (and the fans) down in Season 9.
I heard about Jensen doing this in season 7, but not recently.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'd really like to see is an episode where Sam and Cas have to work together to save Dean from something or other.
ReplyDeleteI want one episode with some fun too. I know some will say only Sam and Dean can have fun, how dare they have fun with Cas, and so forth, but it would be a nice breather if the characters had even part of an episode to enjoy themselves.
ReplyDeleteHow has Sam betrayed him over and over again? You act as if Sam has only ever betrayed Dean since S1. What are all these betrayals? I'll give you S4, but I can't give you S8 and I'm not a fan of the "Sam doesn't look for Dean" story.
ReplyDeleteEven though I found Sam's early S8 story highly unbelievable and extremely OOC, I can't say Sam betrayed Dean by not looking. Sam did say he thought Dean was dead. Now, I'm not going to address how Sam reached that conclusion b/c the story was very poorly told and poorly executed . . . . . that said, that IS the story we were told. Sam believed Dean was dead. Putting aside whether Sam should have looked - we were led to believe Sam thought Dean had died. Sam was wrong, but he did not intentionally leave Dean to rot in Purgatory. When Dean says he was in Purgatory, Sam appeared to be shocked. Sam did not know what happened to Dean. It's not like Sam knew where Dean had gone and just decided to leave him there. So, I can't say Sam "betrayed" Dean in S8.
For the record - I HATED episodes 1-11, and I especially hated the OOC writing and trashing of Sam early in the season. I know the real Sam would have looked for Dean, but in Carver's world, that did not occur.
I think Sam not looking for Dean totally worked, it just showed how much the life had changed him, how a person can only take so much before shutting down or checking out.
ReplyDeleteBesides, it's not fair how beautiful he is, even during the trials... And the brothers' relationship is always so believable even as it fluctuates.
My biggest complaint with Amelia and Sam was the lack of chemistry. He had such natural chemistry with Sarah. Yet she was killed off for some manpain.
ReplyDeleteThe trials were probably something Sam thought he was supposed to do, but they actually weren't a good thing, and he never realized, even as they were slowly killing him. I don't think the show did enough to make this clear, if that was the idea. I like the idea, when I think about it, but most of the season was spent with fans believing this was a good thing.
The show has often joked that Dean is supposed to be the one who isn't into books like Sam, or they have Sam looking over books, but I've never seen them as being one smart, one dumb, even if I sometimes think Bob Singer does, and I think Sera Gamble did too. I think Sam sometimes clings to the idea of being the scholar, for an identity.
I'd actually rather see Sam over his illness next season, even if it's a copout, because I just don't care about him going around half-dead, I think it's played out, and then in some episodes he's totally fine, aside from a cough or two.
I would like to see Kevin confront Sam about the last few years, but if they get that out of the way, I could see them becoming friends. And I'd like to see more of Sam and Jody too. I would also like to see that cop Linda Blair played come back.
Good article and basically shows how bad the writing for Sam has gotten because for all the problems this season and the usual complaints of Dean doesn't get his own story line and Sam hardly gets a POV we have somehow degenerated into begging for the following
ReplyDelete'CAN SAM GET A DECENT FRIEND OF HIS OWN TO PLAY WITH LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES'
As much as they have never bothered to deal with Sam's self loathing before and stripped back the boys world to so little in season 7 they have done little to nothing to really deal with Sam's mental state on any level. .
If anything Benny, Amelia and not looking gave us more reasons to get on Sam's case when he screwed up and he had no-one objective to really talk through his actions in a way that would give him a chance to really work things through in his own head other than the people he really hurt and Dean, understandably wasn't in a place to listen, unlike with both the bonding girlie chats that Dean had with Charlie when they were trying on outfits.
So when they suddenly had Dean drop it after Sam's temper tantrum in Southern Comfort it didn't give you the impression of two equals it gave you something akin to a married couple in a very unhealthy relationship. Not dealing with Sam's mental state properly and no-one dealing with the fall out of Sam's actions makes him kind of a blank slate to relate to when he screws up or does something that contray to all other evidence would never do before, (hello Benny) because you can't apply anything other than something malicious to his reasoning and they give us nothing to come back from that idea. It makes Sam closer to the monster he has been fighting against becoming than he has been before and this season feeling unpure from Demon blood or not it was all him, nothing manipulating him into anything.
For all the emotional breakdown in Sacrifice it was no Jamie Lanister explanation in the bath tub in GoT, I understand Sam now and I can sympathise with him. All I got was a conflicted mess who is lonely and needs to expand his world and who is putting too much pressure on his brother seeing how he threw in the line about Dean turning to the Angel and the Vampire. Sam is a man of 30 not the 22 year old anymore, you can't get away with the special baby bird hero he was in the beginning with his big brother there trying to act as a protective barrier anymore.
One line with Sam saying "Yes I looked and could find nothing" would have saved this season for me.
ReplyDeleteI have not always agreed with Sam's choices, but I have always understood where he was coming from and why he did what he did. But not looking for Dean is just out of the back forty and not believable at all for the Sam from the last 7 years.
ReplyDeleteSam did not know where Dean had gone in Time After Time either but he looked for him. Carver took 7 years of canon and trashed it and I don't have to like it, but to me Sam never seemed like Sam this season..not even a little.
ReplyDeleteHis actions toward Benny were not Sam like, his leaving Martin, not Sam like.
Perfect and you said it so much better than I have been trying to..Sam this season just was not someone I even liked and I hated that, because I have loved both brothers from the start, even when Sam was messed up, I could understand why.
ReplyDeleteSam did know where Dean went in Time After Time. He knew that he went to the past. He knew that it was possible to travel between the two times so it was just a matter of figuring out how.
ReplyDeleteHad Sam acted like that toward any other vampire it might not have been Sam like. However this vampire was different because his relationship with Dean had the potential to put Dean at great risk. I don't think that Sam would have taken a chance with Deans life like that. It's similar to Martin. Sam had never been in that type of situation before, where he had to chose between leaving a hunter behind (a hunter who was well capable of walking back to town by himself) and the woman he loved who he believed was in trouble. It would have been very atypical of Sam to not rush to Amelia if he believed her to be in danger.
Sam did NOT know where Dean went until he started trying to figure out what happened, then he found out they were after Chronos, but he was already looking for Dean. Martin was crazy and after he knocked out Dean and left him chained in the room, Sam still went off with him and should have known something was not right. Say what you want but this is not the Sam of the last 7 seasons. This is one of the things I love about SPN, fans can see each ep in a different light, like we are not even watching the same show.
ReplyDeleteI did see some movement this season toward some of what you said - the time with Amelia planted the seed in Sam's mind that he could have the future he wanted, and taking on the trials was a proactive step in moving beyond the victim role when it comes to demons and fighting back. While these trials were obviously not what they seemed, I'd love to see more of that next season.
ReplyDeleteSam has always been a victim of demons and Lucifer - the killing of his mother, Jess, his father, his brother in season 3, being changed against his will with the demon blood, being tricked into letting Lucifer out of his cage, being tortured by Lucifer in the cage. Sam has never had the opportunity for some vengeance (he didn't even get the kill when it came to Yellow Eyes). Standing up on his own and earning a victory against the demons might be just what he needs to be able to step out of the role of always being a victim.
I hope Sam finds a new way to continue with what he started in season 8 - this time with a plan that's a little better thought out and that leads to a more satisfying end.
Did you watch 6.03 to 6.22? Cas was "stone cold sober" when he decided to ignore his instinct that something was wrong with soulless Sam and instead team up with Crowley. Raphael "sparked" the conflict but Cas grabbed the bulls by their horns and went full speed ahead, thought process be damned.
ReplyDeleteThe problem for me with Sam's reaction to Benny can be summed up in three words - Kate the werewolf.
ReplyDeleteIf she hadn't been in this season I could have gotten Sam's reaction to Benny better but because of her it seemed as much as Sam was being protective and rightly cautious it turned into something nasty and bitter. Especially when the text became a higher priority to him than someone dying and he issued the ultimatum of him or Benny.
It came across as Sam being willing to let monsters go unless they remind him of his failings, of his issues with his brother and considering that it devolved into Benny's head being on the block because of it that was out of order.
I don't know that killing YED would have given Sam any closure, though, since he was only an intermediary character and defeating Lucifer turned out to be Sam's real end game. Even though Sam didn't actually "kill" Lucifer, I still thought Sam got his vengeance when he refused to give into his so-called destiny, thwarted all those centuries old demonic plans, and locked Lucifer back up. And Sam did kill Lilith, who'd held Dean's contract, and Brady, who'd been responsible for Jessica's death. So I'm not sure I agree that Sam's never had the chance to even the score against the demons.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I see your point about how a personal victory could be important in moving Sam away from being a victim and towards empowerment. Sam really hasn't had a "win" in a long time and all these supernaturally afflictions have just compounded the problem (which is why I think it'd be so important that the writers stop with those.) Winning against the demons in some way would fit with his story so that is certainly one possibility. I could actually see Sam closing Hell and Dean closing Heaven as the series finale, with hopefully some sort of loophole that'd allow them to survive.
I fully got Sams reactiopn to benny. Dean told Sam one thing. One. That benny saved Dean in purgatory. Well, Ruby did the exact saem thing for Sam (though not in purgatory). Ruby saved Sam for her own ulterior motives just as Benny had ulterior motives himself.
ReplyDeleteAnd that was it. Dean never said anything else about Benny. ANd Dean never asked Sam and benny to get to know the other. By the way....I'mn pretty sure Dean sabataged Benny even wanting to know Sam.
Benny said Dean told him everything about Sam. But what did Dean tell benny? Obviously it wasn't that Sam saw shades of grey; that he gave supernatural creatures a chance...that he saw good in them and didn't see them all as monsters.
And yet when Dean wanted to kill benny to save Sam; Benny never once expressed how Sam wasn't anything like Dean described. In fact the idea that Sam wanted benny dead (even though Sam didn't give two thoughts to Benny outside of Blood brother) didn't phase benny in the least...like it was expected.
So we get Sam saying benny wan't anything likle he thought ...despite Dean not saying two words about benny as a person. And yet benny ...aftter Dean told Benny everything about Sam .... didn't wonder how Sam wasn't anything like Dean described.
So what exactly did Dean tell Benny about Sam? That Sam had this rigid black and white 'kill all monster with extreme prejuidice' attitude? Is this why Castiel can't be bothered to try and relate to Sam? That he 'mostly ignores Sam' as he said in season 6 (7) after he healed Sam from the hallucinations? why Lisa hated Sam practically on sight?
Evidence suggests Dean doesn't want Sam as his brother/equal. That he needs Sam, sure...but Dean needs sam to be broken and damaged so he can heroically 'fix him'. It fills that need in Dean to be needed.
sam, Cas, Dean and Kevin should play laser tag. Not only would they have fun but it could be good team building excersize.
ReplyDeleteI mentioned YED specifically because in season 2, YED seemed to be the demon most directly responsible for killing Jessica, and I think that was the death that stung the most with Sam.
ReplyDeleteSam's story is that every time he thinks he's winning against a demon, it gets twisted around back at him and he finds it's really a loss. Killing Lilith let Lucifer out of the cage. Putting Lucifer in the cage led to the 150 years of torture and the soullessness. In Swan Song, while Lucifer was in control of Sam's body, Lucifer let Sam kill other demons like Brady who had manipulated him, but that was to unleash Sam's anger and bring Sam closer to Lucifer.
Sam needs a real victory that doesn't turn around an bite him in the butt. While this pattern made sense in season 1-5 because the idea was that all of Sam's actions would eventually lead him to Lucifer, we're past that arc now. This should be the phase of Sam discovering that things are different now and that the victory against Lucifer meant something.
If you don't like Sam you don't have to. There are enough of us who like him, so don't worry about it. ;)
ReplyDeleteIf Sam and Dean knew where Kate had gone, they probably would have monitored the area to make sure there weren't any suspicious deaths. Sam sent Martin to investigate because there had been a string of deaths that looked like vampire killings in the town Benny had settled in.
ReplyDeletePeople act like Sam's first reaction with every monster he meets is to try to rehabilitate them. It's not. Sam's a hunter - he has been since he was a boy - and Sam and Dean kill most of the monsters they meet without even considering giving them a second chance. It's only when a monster can make a good case as to why they're not a threat to the public that sometimes they decide to let them go.
Maybe people who don't dare about Sam shouldn't be writing articles about him.
ReplyDeleteSam had a starting point, the man in the fedora. He had a timeline, he had case files and he had Jody Mills. When Dean disappeared at the end of season 7, Sam didn’t even know in which dimension he should start looking.
ReplyDeleteThere was nothing to prove that Martin was crazy, and definitely nothing to prove that his judgment could not be trusted. Much of what Martin did in this episode, Sam, Dean and other hunters had done in past episodes. Dean was left chained to the radiator because he was trying to stop them from killing the vampire they both believed was killing people (and they had zero evidence to the contrary). Saving people IS the Sam of the last seven seasons.
If you also notice I am explaining exactly why I feel I'm getting further away from him and how it can be fixed.
ReplyDeleteBut that wouldn't be helpful in the slightest for those that like Sam would it be :P
Oh me too! At this point, saving & caring for Dean the way he has with them, is the only thing that will put those former mistakes completely to rest and redeem them both permanently. Not even saving the world again and again managed that, though the writers sure try and fail alot. Especially after S8, I need to SEE how much Dean means to them. Give Dean a story and let Sam save/protect him for a change (like they should have done with the Purgatory story).
ReplyDeleteSam has a habit of using the I will leave card, when Dean does not toe the line.
ReplyDeleteBut if Raphael had won then half the people on earth would have been killed in the war that was to follow.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I think the reason this season left me with such a bad taste is because I adore Sam and have from the start, but this year I was ready for Dean to help him pack his bags and tell him "don't let the door hit you on the way out". It was Sam's way or I will leave.
ReplyDeleteEvidence shows that Sam doesn't want to be treated as an equal because for all the mouthing about Sam didn't want to be treated as Dean's kid brother he isn't exactly manning up.
ReplyDeleteDean never asked Sam and Benny to get to know each other - why didn't Sam ask to meet Benny if he wasn't so sure about Benny. Dean took Ruby on sufferance when Sam told him about her saving his life, but Sam can't do the same or say it isn't enough I want to meet the guy?
Sam was soulless, so that was a problem with regard to Lisa, but also if Lisa had a bad impression of Sam and Dean's relationship from Dean's word. But seeing how that relationship involved two people why exactly is it solely on Dean to change that impression, that Dean will trot away with Sam no matter what - Dean is responsible for his actions but are you saying that Sam is not capable of changing someone's impression of him on his own?
Equality meets both do the work and you are giving Sam less agency than he is capable of.
In truth no, it's not helpful for me, because while I see flaws in both Sam and Dean, the flaws you identified with Sam are Sam "not owning his own crap" and "acting like a spoiled child." In my view, all Sam does is own his own crap and neither Sam nor Dean have ever acted spoiled. Quite the opposite. Both of the Winchesters have huge guilt complexes and would be better served by shaking some of that off and becoming a little more self-serving. It's about finding some balance.
ReplyDeleteAnd Dean is not beyond using methods towards Sam when he doesnt toe the line so your point is what exactly that Sam controls Dean in away that Dean does not attempt with Sam. I know you believe that how Dean acts differs from Sam but actually he does not in fact he can more aggressive than Sam. I am getting tired of the idea that Dean is some sort of victim of Sam when he is as far as away from that and that Sam must play the game that suits everybody else .
ReplyDeleteThe thing that cracks me up is I often read posts where people say there is too much codependence between Sam and Dean, and then in the next paragraph faulting Sam for trying to walk away and get some distance when their relationship starts feeling uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteYes the WInchesters have huge guilt complexes but having Sam say shut up or I walk resolves nothing and does nothing but store up resentment from both parties and is how a 5 year old deals with things
ReplyDeleteYour view of Sam is one I do not share and frankly you will always want a Sam that acts to your belief and your ideas.Yor view Sam wanting a life outside of hunting as something that reflects on Dean and that is where your loyalty lies with Dean. The endless criticism of Sam and your personal interpretation of him and his actions show that . I am polar opposite and this article was not about how mean Sam was to Dean there are Dean articles for that. I do not see Sam the way you or others see him and neither do I see Dean the way you do and others see him .
ReplyDeleteIf Sam was using "I'll leave" as an empty threat I might agree with you, but when Sam's talked about leaving it was because he wanted to leave. Dean always guilts him into staying.
ReplyDeleteAnd Sam has never guilted him with the leaving ultimatium to get Dean to shut up?
ReplyDeleteThe boys are as bad as each other and nothing gets resolved!
To my memory no. You seem to have a specific time in mind, so why don't you share?
ReplyDeleteExactly! No one is forcing anyone to like and/or sympathize Sam.
ReplyDeleteSouthern Comfort, Fallen Idols? Those are two that spring to mind.
ReplyDeleteDean had to shut up, change and move on from his anger at Sam or things wouldn't work, Sam would leave.
Didn't fully resolve anything just Dean buried his anger more and Sam still felt he let Dean down.
If you don't like Sam (which you clearly do not), you don't like Sam. That's fine. I'm not sure who is forcing you to sympathize and/o empathize w/him. Like him. Don't like him. Whatever. That's your choice.
ReplyDeleteMany of us didn't appreciate Carver's OOC story for Sam, but were willing to give him a pass b/c we DO like the character and we acknowledged that the writing was crappy and OOC.
And how did Sam NOT own his crap? He admitted that he had made mistakes. He admitted that his actions were the reason Dean didn't have faith and trust in him. How is that not owning his crap? \
Sam has admitted to being wrong for going to college (which infuriates me up), for running away,for his relationship w/John, for trusting Ruby, for killing Lilith, for bringing about the Apocalypse (he took sole ownership of that one), for being soulless, for failing and disappointing Dean, for not being a good brother. What more do you guys want?
Yeah . . . I just the same thing above. Sam DOES own his crap, and to say he doesn't, is a misrepresentation of canon. Heck, Sam even admitted (wrongly IMO) to being wrong for wanting to go college and for going to college! He basically apologized for having his own thoughts and desires . . . . but he doesn't own his crap?!?!? Okay . . . .
ReplyDeleteGoing to college isn't something for which Sam should have to apologize and feel guilty about, but he did and does!
In both cases, Dean wasn't dealing with his anger. He was letting it simmer and come out in passive aggressive cuts. Sam's comments about leaving weren't empty threats. He was ready to leave what at that point was a toxic relationship. The worst thing Sam could have done would have been to say nothing and just keep taking the put-downs. It wasn't about guilting Dean. It was about forcing a change - whether that meant a separation or pushing Dean to deal with his issues in a less abusive way.
ReplyDeleteIf you didn't care for the "I didn't look b/c we had an agreement" story, then your anger should be focused on Carver! He's the one that made up that whacky agreement NO ONE ever heard about before, and he's the one that decided this was a good story for Sam.
ReplyDeleteWe all know Sam would have looked for Dean. Jared knows Sam would have looked for Dean. I choose to look at that entire storyline as the OOC, character trashing for no reason story it was rather than as a reflection of how the Sam Winchester I'd watched for seven seasons would have behaved.
And as far as Sam having demands before staying in a relationship, what the heck is wrong w/that? If Dean has some, he should speak up too. Don't be angry b/c Sam does. Sam is an adult, and he doesn't have to travel w/Dean if he doesn't want to travel w/Dean. By saying, "Hey, I'm not going to stick around if you continue to insult me," that's not behaving like a 5-year old. That's behaving like an adult and letting someone know where you stand. It is then up to the other person to make his/her own decision. Dean could have said, "Well, then go." Dean could make his own demands for sticking around.
I'm not sure how telling someone how you expect to be treated is immature. Again, there is nothing stopping Dean from doing the same.
See this is what I don't like you assume I don't like Sam, I liked Sam prior to this season until the OOC actions then wibbely wobbely limpness and I'm just too tired to be all team Sam now.
ReplyDeleteAs for admitting his mistakes, it wasn't going to college that he say he was wrong for it was the running away part that was wrong, the way he went to college was wrong. As for him owning up to his stuff - there is always a little caveat and that is what annoys me and it isn't just from Sam it is the outs Dean give him too. Dean treats him like a little brother, he felt powerless, Ruby made him strong, there was the agreement, Benny was a vampire, Amy promised him and they were kids together etc etc etc. It cheapens the character of Sam.
You don't get Cas going 'Yes I made a mistake about working with Crowley and busting purgatory but remember I did it because Raphael was being a git.' Mind Sam's face in the one with Jesse when Sam tried to talk Cas into giving the kid a chance and Cas' come back was simply Sam had the info and he didn't go the right way? That was not the face of a man who had come to terms with his actions - that was the face of someone who buried them and didn't want to talk about them again.
You know. . .. even though I pretty much hated Sam's behavior in the early part of S8 and would have been absolutely fine w/Dean ditching him, I'm so sick of posters holding Sam responsible for Dean's behavior in sticking w/Sam.
ReplyDeleteDean is an adult just like Sam. If Dean doesn't think Sam appreciates him, then Dean can leave. Dean sticks w/Sam b/c Dean WANTS to stick w/Sam. Dean is capable of leaving Sam. He did it in Scarecrow, GGY, and EOMS. The boys have a relationship, and they can each make demands in it. They can each let the other know how they wish to be treated and what they want.
In Both SC and FI, Sam wasn't making an idle threat. He wasn't saying he was going to leave in order to get Dean to "shut up." He was simply telling Dean what he expected from the relationship and how he wanted to be treated. In FI, Kripke had Dean acting in a very OOC (IMO) and douchey way. Sam had every right to tell Dean he wasn't going to stick around if that was how Dean was going to treat him. I only saw the episodes leading up to SC once, so I can't really speak on the specifics of that episode. In any event, Sam was simply letting Dean know he wasn't happy and wouldn't stick around if Dean continued to behave in the manner he was. Does that mean Dean can't express his anger or frustration w/Sam? No, but passive aggressiveness is never good.
Oh I missed where I put Carver is at a crossroads with Sam - oh no I didn't, it is there. Please read that too.
ReplyDeleteSaying I'm not going to stick around if you continue to insult me isn't being a five year old but telling someone 'shut up about your hurt over something I did or I'll walk' is.
The later would just push resentment down, it doesn't deal with it and in the end Sam would still feel like he let Dean down instead of just taking it letting Dean work through it and then getting to a point he too can accept Sam's actions and Sam really gets how hurt Dean is.
See, now I think Cas absolutely should defend himself and remind Dean that there's another side of the story or else neither he nor Dean will grow! That doesn't mean that Cas shouldn't take ownership for the things where he's to blame (and there were a lot, especially from "Let It Bleed" on), but there were two sides to the story, and things could have ended very differently had Dean been willing to listen to Cas's side of the story, and maybe even compromise.
ReplyDeleteGosh, I hope not. I want to see S9 pick up from where it left off and not have Sam magically healed. I am thinking he will still be effected by the trials in some way.
ReplyDeleteWell, if you acknowledge the actions were OOC, then I'm not sure why you insist on now hating Sam. I have no idea if you like Sam or not. From your posts, it doesn't appear you like him. I don't know what's in your heart. Maybe you like him. Maybe you don't. I can only base my opinion on your posts where it seems you don't like him.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember when he said it, but I recall Sam saying he was wrong for going to college. That is ridiculous. That really ticked me off. It was in S5. I also hated DSOTM b/c it had Sam, again, apologizing for his Heaven as if Sam's Heaven was only consisted of those three lousy memories! When Sam and Dean hooked up in Heaven, Sam didn't see any thoughts of him, but you didn't see Sam declaring that Dean didn't love him.
Since the beginning, this show has made it clear that Sam is wrong for wanting normal, for wanting to go to college, for not wanting to hunt. Sam has essentially apologized for ALL these things. He has apologized for being an individual. That is sickening to me. No wonder Sam has all that guilt and feelings of low self-worth if he thinks every single decision he's ever made has been the WRONG one! That must be horrible for him.
And I don't recall any caveats to Sam accepting ownership of his wrong actions. Maybe in FI there was, but in a later season, Sam accepted responsibility for it all.
I saw the Jesse episode the first time it aired, and I've never watched it again so I can't comment on any look shared btw Sam and Cas.
OK, you lost me. When did Sam say "shut up about your hurt over something I did or I'll walk"?
ReplyDeleteAs Chris says below, I'm not sure that's what Sam said. I just watched it (thanks YT), and Sam says, "I told you from the jump where I was coming from, why I didn't look for you. But you? You had secrets. You had Benny. And you got on your high & mighty, and you've been kicking me ever since you got back. But that's over. Move on or I will."
ReplyDeleteAnd no point does Sam say, "Stop feeling bad about me not looking for you or I'm gonna leave." He's saying that he wants Dean to stop kicking him about the decision Sam made. It's very passive aggressive to do that. Sam didn't lie to Dean. He told Dean he thought Dean was dead and didn't look for him. I, personally, have issues w/the way that played out, but that's the story Sam told. He was honest w/Dean about what he did.
Dean was angry and upset w/the decision but making snotty comments isn't the "mature" way to deal w/that resentment and anger.Sam shouldn't be expected to take Dean's crap while Dean works through his issues. And trust me, I'd say the same for Dean if the situations were reversed.
Maybe Dean is the one who should have taken a break from Sam
of course sam wasnt going to look for dean. sam thought dean was DEAD. and sam knows from past experience that trying to bring you're brother back from the dead doesn't work out well.
ReplyDeleteAnd the way to deal with Passive Aggressiveness isn't to tell someone to shut up or tell them to change how they see you in the way Sam did. All it leads to is more passive aggressive behaviour. Telling someone to get it out then deal with the behaviour on both sides is the way to resolve it.
ReplyDeleteDean isn't perfect but the way Sam dealt with Dean's anger plays right into the reason why he feels he lets Dean down. Toxic relationship or not Dean shutting up not at his own speed or not without proper way for both of them to work it out doesn't do anything to resolve jack.
The problem w/the Benny angle was it was never made clear - in the show - why Sam had such a problem w/Benny. I know many fans speculated that Sam thought Benny was like Ruby, but if that was the idea, I think it would have helped if the writers had given Sam some (much needed) POV and had he say that. From what we saw, Sam hated Benny on sight, and that simply didn't, IMO, fall in line w/how Sam has treated supernatural creatures/monsters before.
ReplyDeleteEarlier in the season, Sam was fine w/letting the werewolf girl go. The previous season, he was fine w/letting Amy go. He hesitated in killing Lenore. He wanted to save Jack Montgomery. Sam has never been presented as the type who would kill a monster simply b/c it was a monster. That's not his MO.
So, why did Sam want to kill Benny upon meeting him? And this was before SC when Dean called Benny a better brother to him than Sam had ever been. It really made no sense given what we saw. Benny wasn't bothering Dean. Benny wasn't leading Dean down a dark path like Ruby did w/Sam. Benny was basically living his life and minding his own business like Lenore and her group, so what was Sam's problem w/him? Additionally, why didn't Dean just tell Sam about Benny?
I think it all goes back to lazy, bad writing. Benny had no other purpose than to cause unnecessary conflict btw the brothers. That's all. I really like the idea of Sam being cautious or leery of Benny b/c of Ruby but that was never clearly stated in the show . . . . at least not that I can recall. Honestly, I don't think much thought was put into why Sam would hate Benny on sight; he just did. There was no reason for it and it was completely OOC, in my opinion.
Sorry but that was the take home from Sam's speech in Southern Comfort, Dean was to shut or he'll leave. It is as passive aggressive as Dean's barbs especially considering that it came at the tale of Dean being forced to be open by something against his will. Dean buries that stuff because of his abandonment issues - we know this we have seen this and Sam knows it too.
ReplyDeleteAlso yes Sam shouldn't be expected to take Dean's crap but he shouldn't think that Dean is simply not affected by things because Sam says so. If he wants to deal with Dean's crap let Dean get it out, let himself get it out - bringing up Benny as a counter when Dean was possessed? Then saying he'll walk in the manner he did Really that is going to be the way to get Dean to drop any grudge? It was writing that was beneath Sam and made him look like a dangerous petulant child.
Sam had an idea of where Dean went in TAT as they were working that case.
ReplyDeleteLook, I'm not disagreeing that Carver trashed canon. He did, but what are you going to do about it? Let it ruin the show? Let it forever taint your view of Sam? It seems like that has happened for you; it has not for me.
I see it as a bad, OOC writing. That's all. The writers gained a clue in the 2nd half and began to write the brothers as they should have been written from the start. So, I can look at Sam fine now. I still love and enoy the character. I'm not going to let Carver's whacked view of Supernatural and Sam ruin Sam or the brotherhood for me. YMMV.
How is that passive aggressive? I think it's pretty darn direct and clear.
ReplyDeleteSam said Dean had been kicking him ever since he got back about the decision Sam made, and he was sick of it. Dean wasn't going on and on about how much it hurt him that Sam didn't look for him; he was making comments like, "are people's lives more important than your organic fruit" and other similar comments. Sam was simply sick of it. Dean wasn't addressing the real reason for the comments (i.e., Dean's own pain and feelings of worthlessness). If he were, that would be a little different in my mind.
In any event, I don't believe anyone has to accept another's justified anger and frustration forever. For example, if one spouse cheated on the other, and they decided to reconcile, I don't think the "cheating" spouse should have endure endless barbs and quips about it. At some point, the "cheating" spouse will want to leave or end the relationship b/c it's not healthy.
Given the crappy, vague way the story played out, I think Dean had every right to be upset w/Sam. That said, he chose to stay w/Sam so at some point, he does have to move on. He cannot continue to make Sam feel bad and think Sam's gonna stick around. Please understand that I'm not saying Dean had to get over it. That's why I think Dean should have left for awhile to see if he could truly forgive Sam or confronted Sam w/his real feelings so they could address the issue.
But nothing Dean was doing was actually addressing the underlying issue.
Crimson Peak is a real movie, unlike that Abominable Snowman project that Jim talked about last time. His name isn't up on the credits yet, but this one will be easier to prove or disprove. I would like to see Bobby back again, so I'll take what I can get on that front.
ReplyDeleteShe appears to be more open minded about Sam than you do about her.
ReplyDeleteOh I completely agree with you on this. But it seems his fans are determined to excuse his faults and mistakes blaming always other people like Naomi or Crowley instead of him. I don't really understand why he "bonds" so much with Dean when Dean shouldn't even talk to him after all he had done to his brother but it is what it is.
ReplyDeleteThank you! Sam is a not a licensed therapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist. How is he supposed to know how to deal w/passive aggressive behavior?
ReplyDeleteThey are brothers and regular people. Sam was upset and spoke from his heart. Dean's SC speech was pretty hurtful so Sam just told Dean how he was feeling! Absolutely NOTHING prevented Dean from doing the same.
I'm not sure why the onus is being put on Sam to resolve Dean's issues. I got into a similar discussion w/someone in the Dean article. That poster basically said it was basically faulting Sam for how Dean reacts to Sam as if Dean has no personal ownership over his own decisions, etc.
Exactly. I see more in common with Sam and Castiel than with him and Dean. They have always done things for the greater good, they have betrayed friends, their own brothers anb have done horrible things because they believed they were doing the right thing. They could talk a lot about that and bond over it.
ReplyDeleteIf Castiel has to be around the Winchester instead of having his own separate story, I think it's fair he interacts and helps both of them.
Both have been at fault many times. Problem is Sam is constantly hated for that, is constantly reminded of his mistakes while Cas is excused.
ReplyDeleteThank you. You said it better than I could have said it.
ReplyDeleteI hear you. After S6, you would think they would have bonded a bit more, but Cas has been reserved as Dean's friend and confidante. At one time, I was interested in Sam and Castiel bonding, but not anymore. I do want Sam to get a friend this year. I know it's wishful thinking, but it would be nice!
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree that Cas's story should be connected to the Winchesters. I, personally, don't like it when they break up the episodes. It kills the momentum and pacing, IMO.
I agree his story should be connected but independent if you know what I mean. I don't like when he's always following them around like a third wheel, it accomplishes nothing for him nor for the brothers. IMO.
ReplyDeleteThe problem goes back to the story being poorly written and poorly executed.
ReplyDeleteIt is not crystal clear why Sam didn't look for Dean. He says he thought Dean was dead, but then he mentions not knowing if Dean was eating tacos two states over. So, which is it? Did Sam think Dean was dead or did he think Dean was alive on Earth somewhere? Who knows? It doesn't help matters that whenever asked why he didn't look for Dean, Sam never responds with, "Well, no, of course I didn't. I thought he was dead." That, to me, is a very logical response to that question IF Sam genuinely thought Dean was dead. However, no writer ever had him respond that way. Who looks for a dead person? That doesn't even make sense.
Assuming Sam thought Dean was dead - how did he reach this conclusion? Who knows? At the end of S7, Sam demanded that Crowley tell him where Dean had gone, which would indicate he didn't believe Dean was dead so what happened between Crowley disappearing and Sam leaving the warehouse? Again, who knows? According to Carver, after about 2-5 minutes of contemplation, Sam determined Dean had died and that he was going to move on w/his life. Okay. Sam said he drove around aimlessly for at least two months before hitting Riot and meeting the horrific Amelia. In that 2 months, he could have been researching and reaching the conclusion that Dean had died, but Carver seemed determined to make Sam feel this way from the moment S7 ended. Okay . . . .
The story simply makes no sense so I've found it quite hard to debate and/or discuss.
So, when thinking about Dean's anger . . . . if Dean doesn't believe that Sam thought he was dead, then I think Dean's anger w/Sam is justified. If Dean does believe Sam thought he was dead, then I don't think Dean's anger is justified. Why would he expect Sam to bring him back from the dead? They've done that before, and it has only caused problems so I can't see Dean being upset that Sam didn't go to extremes to resurrect his "dead" body. But Dean was upset . . . . so I guess Dean didn't believe Sam. He continued to ask and reference Sam not looking for him even though Sam did say, "Nothing says family like the whole family being dead." So, I guess Dean thought Sam lied to him? I don't know.
Again, the story simply didn't make sense. That's why I refuse to look at Sam differently b/c of this shoddy, poorly written story.
But back to SC - as Chris and I mentioned below, Sam is a not a therapist, and I think it's unfair to expect Sam to know how to deal w/Dean in the best way possible. The underlying issue was Dean's issue so he had to be the one who brought it up. It was only though the penny that Dean's true feelings came out. He felt Sam had left him for a girl. He felt Sam abandoned.
IMO, to keep up this contrived, forced angst, the writers never let Sam say anything substantive. Instead of saying, "I told you where I was coming from," why not let him say, "Dean, I told you. I thought you were dead. Man, I would never intentionally leave you in Purgatory. I thought you had died. I didn't want to make the same mistakes we made before so I moved on. I met Amelia months after you died." The only reason Sam couldn't say something like that is b/c Dean would have had less reason to be angry, IMO, and they wanted the contrived conflict.
Cas rarely owns his mistakes? Are you serious? What show do you watch? You know, we still have no idea if the world would have been better off or worse off had Cas backed off the Purgatory souls idea and let Raphael win the civil war in heaven and start his second apocalypse. Its still entirely possible that the Levis and Godstiel were the lesser of two evils, not to mention it was really Raphael who set that whole thing in motion and Cas was only reacting to him. Yet Cas has repeatedly taken sole blame for the current state of heaven. And then there's Naomi who wanted to rule heaven via mind control and intimidation out of some misplaced loyalty to dead archangels, and Metatron, Cas's last connection to a God he still loves and wants to please who took advantage of Cas's self loathing and guilt for his own ends. They both share most of the blame for the angels falling, but Id bet dollars to donuts it will be Cas who accepts most of the blame and guilt.
ReplyDeleteUntil we see a body or confirmed by the higher authority, I say Jody is still alive. Which is why I hold out hope that Linda Tran is still alive and Crowley is lying his ass off.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it should be as independent as it has been the last couple of years.
ReplyDeleteFor me, Cas is a secondary character, not a lead. I see him as support to the Winchesters s his story becomes more interesting to me when it is tied to the Winchesters and whatever they're doing. For instance, if Dean (or Sam) had a larger role in the angel trials, I think I would have been more interested in that arc.
YMMV though.
Great, as I have said before, that is what I like about SPN, we can watch the same ep and see what we want to see..Me I did not see the Sam I have loved for the last 7 years..I am glad you did see your Sam.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Sam has a right to leave, but to keep acting like a 12 year old and threaten to basically take his bat and ball and go home is getting old. He knows Dean has issues of being alone and Sam always uses that. If he wants to go, just go.
ReplyDeleteJust think about this for a minute..you have a sister or brother that goes missing, do you just go on with your life, or do you WANT to find out what happened..If dead then you can go on, if no body it found do you just say OK they must be dead and go on with you life. I would want to know for sure, as many families have said when they have someone missing, until proof of death, you keep looking and hoping.
ReplyDeleteAgree it is poor execution.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't crystal clear why Sam didn't look for Dean but if Sam had been consistent about his reasoning let alone Carver's reasoning about why he had Sam have the knee jerk 'Dean is dead reaction' it would have helped.
Because we got that mish mash of reasoning I can get why Dean got very passive aggressive.
If Sam had simply thinking Dean was dead and his experience had taught him it was bad to try to bring him back or he imploded and he wasn't physically able to cope with looking they are all understandable views could have taken. People would have understood that, Dean would have been pissed then let it go. But what we got was every reason under the sun including a few that can be interpreted as Sam thinking its Dean fault too - If he didn't know if Dean was 2 states away eating a Taco why didn't Dean get in touch? If there was an agreement Dean would have had to agree with it too, so why should he be angry?
With that reasoning I can see why Sam would snap at any barbs and why Dean's back got really up about it - he's seeing it as Sam's thinking that he in part responsible for Sam reasoning he shouldn't be looked for when Sam wasn't fully convinced he was dead. Also why would Sam want to deal with that when he realises Dean's not just going to simply let the not looking go.
At best the inconsistency of Sam's reasoning in not looking came across as a way of Sam trying to deflect his own self esteem issues, if Dean played a part in his reasoning he didn't really let down Dean, but that coming out after a season of dragging it out it kind of misses the mark.
And by the same token Dean isn't Sam's but we have a set up where Dean is going to have to deal with Sam's issues.
ReplyDeleteBecause as you said Sam has the right to stand up for himself but so does Dean including when Sam doesn't want to hear what his brother is saying
Or just having the only resemblance to an ally, Kevin, being picked up by Crowley and Sam not even having a starting point to run with. (I think that was the point of the last line by Crowley)
ReplyDeleteYou're a goddamn fucking moron, Veronica K. as I'm sure many are aware. Your url on tumblr is pretty evident on where you stand in life and mental stability. <3
ReplyDelete...and Dean's punching Sam several times through the show is a much more mature conflict resolution technique than walking away from a situation. (/facetious comment).
ReplyDeleteWhere we disagree is that the inconsistency of Sam's reasoning came off as poor storytelling to me. I honestly could not take the first 11 episodes of the season seriously. They were so awful and poorly written that I don't think there's any point in debating it. The story was crap.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do believe we're supposed to believe Sam thought Dean was dead.
You're preaching to the choir. Nothing about Sam not looking makes any sense. I think I've made my feelings on that very clear. Of course Sam would look for Dean. Only in Carver's mind does there exist a Sam that wouldn't search for his brother.
ReplyDeleteIf he (Carver) had bothered to tell an actual story around Sam not looking, the season might have played out a bit better but as usual, not much time was spent on Sam's POV. Even his FBs were focused on a guest star instead of him!
castiel didn't say he mostly ignores sam tho. he said
ReplyDelete"CASTIEL:
You seem troubled. Of course, that's a primary aspect of your personality, so I sometimes ignore it."
but troubled in the context of that conversation was that sam was acting concerned/worried/"troubled" about castiel after taking in hallucifer. castiel was saying that it's common for sam to be concerned/upset about/for others and so castiel sometimes ignores when sam is going into caring mode~.
in context of season 6 castiel answered both brothers about equal since he was ignoring BOTH brothers for most of season 6 and was only showing up when they said they had a lead on a weapon of heaven. frontierland even made a point of this by having castiel go as far as to send someone else when it wasn't weapon related. that was sort of the point of most of the drama between castiel and the brothers that season leading up to the big reveal... that he was m.i.a. and not acting like he used to.
and i think the narrative pretty much implied that because castiel "relates" to sam his words about not hiding/running in 8.08 was the reason he wanted to face heaven after just earlier that same episode flipping out when dean suggested trying to find info in heaven and telling him going back might make him kill himself because he didn't want to see or confront what he did in heaven.
which is an extension of the conversation from the same episode where he says he sometimes ignores sam being troubled. he pretty much said that taking on sam pain helped him to deal with his own. which, to me at least, suggests that he relates to sam on a pretty big level since castiel trying to deal with what he did is now a long running emotional arc that has lasted since 7.21 and will probably extend into season 9 since they just added on to his guilt and pain in regards to heaven...
Why is it immature for Sam to state what he wants and needs from their relationship? It isn't immature. It's a heck of a lot better than Dean pounding Sam's face whenever Sam says something he doesn't like. This idea that Sam cannot leave Dean or make some demands on the relationship b/c Dean will feel "abandoned" is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteAt Asylum 10 Con (I think) both Mark Sheppard and Kim Rhodes said Jodi lived.
ReplyDeleteI saw him from ATGB to the finale. What was your problem w/the Sam from that point forward? For me, he was written much more in character than he had been in episodes 1-11.
ReplyDeleteYour post cites another reason why SC was such a failure... the ep never firmly associated Sam's negative feelings about Benny with his similar experience with Ruby that ended very badly. Sam *should* have strongly urged Dean not to repeat his experience with a longer term relationship with a theoretically dangerous supernatural being. The show didn't have to repeat the Ruby plot, but the cautionary tale of Sam's negative Ruby experience would have made Sam look more rational for wanting to keep on Benny in CF, rather than coming off as jealous -you-stole-my-bf-14 yo girl.
ReplyDeleteYou said it! They could have had Sam pleading w/Dean to not make the same mistake w/Benny as Sam had made w/Ruby. That simple line of dialogue would have succinctly explained Sam's attitude re: Benny and why Sam was so dead set on disliking Benny. But Sam, IIRC, didn't say much of anything except "He's a vampire."
ReplyDeleteSam came off as very jealous of Benny. It was strange. His dislike of Benny could have been rooted in a genuine fear or something real, but it came off as forced and fake!
Not that I'm, defending Martin's knocking Dean out but I'd like to point out that "Sam and Martin" left Dean's cell phone in easy reach and the Impala for Dean to drive. If Sam and Martin wanted to leave a smaller chance of Dean of accomplishing much, Sam would have taken Dean's cell phone with him and disabled the impala to slow Dean down somewhat; Sam and Martin knew that Dean would escape the cuffs moments after he regained consciousness.
ReplyDeleteOook I like your points but I respectfully disagree and agree. Both Sam and Dean told others about each other, that's true. They said things but they both want to be equal in life and normally, including Dean as well!.
ReplyDeleteLisa knew that Dean will finish with her, can't really blame her.
Cas have a closer bond with Dean, but he dosen't dislike Sam :)
yes I agree with that phrase
ReplyDeleteI only see him being cautious.
ReplyDeleteBut for me "vampire" is the key world here. Do you know who else had been called that? Sam. Sam when he has been addicted to demon blood, when he was at his lowest and when he made his biggest mistake. In the fake voicemail in the end of season 4 (about which Sam still thinks it's true btw) Sam heard from Dean that he's "vampire, blood sucking freak". This world represents his biggest fear, the reason why Dean is not able to trust his completely, the part of Sam they both resents the most. Sam biggest sin, the biggest way he let Dean down was his addiction and hos own vampirism.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, Benny is the person about who Dean thinks that he'll never let him down, that he's better brother than Sam, even though he's the monster. So that makes Sam think - that maybe it wasn't demon blood that caused Dean be wary of him. Maybe it wasn't this taint he had since he was 6 months old. Maybe it's just him that is not worthy trust, that is always screwing up everything he touches. It only makes him feel more sure that he's failing Dean as brother.
You see, Sam didn't have any reason to trusts Benny, but I think that his attitude towards him was less about Benny, it was more foreshadowing the issues Sam has with himself, his self-hatred and self-doubt that were hidden in him since season 4 and that were voiced out in scene in the church.
Funny, but I don't think it had anything to do with the Ruby lesson. That might have made sense, but in light of the way Carver ended the series, I think we're supposed to interpret the whole thing as:
ReplyDelete- Sam lost his self-confidence when Dean disappeared because he has a past history of always failing, and when under pressure he flaked
- when Dean came back, he felt ashamed about failing Dean again, which is why he was evasive and defensive with Dean
- when he saw Benny he saw Dean trying to find a better brother again (Dean didn't even need to say it, he's always trying to find a better brother) and this stung even more because Benny was a vampire - something Dean always hated
I hate this characterization, but I think it was the story Carver was trying to tell.
All very good points.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lotta hypocrisy on both sides of this fandom. But you're not wrong - I've seen it happen in almost every post talking about the characters relationship.
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree that that's the story Carver was trying to tell. I think the Ruby lesson would have made more sense though, and would have been more in character.
ReplyDeleteCarver's story is just bad and OOC.
I hated DSOTM from the moment Dean started that bullshite about Sam's happy memories. Seriously, I was slackjawed twice by Dean's reactions to some of Sam's memories. Esp. the one when it was the night
ReplyDeletehe'd left. "THIS WAS MY WORST DAY EVER, YOU'RE SELFISH BASTARD, SAM."
At that point, I thought Sam would find his forking backbone and speak
up for himself.
Sam had a point: "I don't see family the way you do, because I never had what you did." At least he understood his running away would've been a negative
for somebody else and showed an emotion other than anger/disgust about
it. All Dean sees is Sam having Thanksgiving with other people and
wanting his own life as some kind of sleight against him personally. My reaction to that was, honey, you're not the center of the universe - please to be getting over yourself.
Okay. I'm done. That'll probably set some people off. IDC.
But remember Sam's issue with Benny started from the moment he met him. That's what was irrational about it IMO. There was no real reason for the level of hatred and amniosity Sam displayed toward Benny.
ReplyDeleteYour ideas and thoughts are good ones. I just wish a definitive reason had been given. It was really left up to the viewers, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
I'm right there w/you! I hated Dean in DSOTM. I hated Dean in that episode as much as I hated Sam in S&V.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it a crime for Sam to have happy memories w/o Dean? Are we really to believe that Dean doesn't have happy memories w/o Sam? We saw some in the episode so why was he so upset w/Sam? Jessica wasn't seen in Sam's memories either, and I'm sure Sam has happy memories of her. I'm sure Dean has happy memories of Cassie and Lisa too.
That whole episode bothered me. I hated that Sam was meant to feel bad about his memories and bad for doing what he wanted to do w/his life. Ugh! I've never watched that crap episode again!
There is an absolutely excellent response to this article here (http://weecesting.tumblr.com/post/53114323984/spoilertv-spoiler-tv-supernatural-season-9) is the author care's to read.
ReplyDelete"I contend since he did not care enough to look for him" Sam thought Dean was dead, he had no leads and no one to turn to. How was he even supposed to start looking? Saying that Sam didn't care about his brother is a gross misinterpretation of the canon.
ReplyDeleteLisa obviously knew about Dean bringing Sam back from the dead, she actually mentioned that she love her sister but wouldn't try to bring her back from the dead.
ReplyDeleteWhy should Sam have to ask to meet Benny. Dean kept Benny hidden. Sam meets Benny when Dean is coming back from taking on a vampire's nest with a vampire and proceeds to not talk to Sam for days. Dean wants Sam to trust Benny, but tells Sam little to nothing about Benny. Heck Sam at least told Dean all about how Amy KILLED HER OWN MOTHER to save Sam. Benny just stayed alive and killed vampires he didn't give a hoot and a holler about. If Dean had said he still didn't trust Amy, Sam quite possibly would have taken Dean to meet Amy. Instead Dean just goes and murders her based only on his own judgement. If Dean gets to kill Sam's friend without meeting her, Sam gets to be suspicious of Benny without meeting him.
So when Dean knows that Cas is in Purgatory, knows that there are ways out of Purgatory, believes that Cas wanted to leave Purgatory but Dean lost his grip in leaving, and Dean lies and tells Sam that Cas didn't make it so that SAM can't start to find a way to rescue Cas from Purgatory; Dean is a good friend and did NOT betray Cas, in any way shape or form. When Sam has NO IDEA where Dean is and has every belief that Dean is dead. And if Sam knew Dean was in Purgatory, the only way to crack Purgatory involve an eclipse that isn't scheduled, killing a Purgatory native (and the Leviathans are scattered to the winds or killed in the explosion at Dick Roman's company) and the blood of a virgin (so killing a virgin was strongly hinted at at worst and at best Sam runs a blood drive and asks every donor about their sex lives while trying to define virgin (do blow jobs count? what about anal? if he got to third base that a virgin or not?) ); then Sam BETRAYED Dean by not trying to rip Dean out of heaven or trying to release the Leviathans AGAIN? That's quite a double standard there.
ReplyDeleteMartin was the only hunter we ever saw who realized he was in trouble emotionally and actually got help for it. He wasn't crazy! He got better and was trying to get back into the business. Sorry to break your stereotypes but a mental breakdown does not mean crazy forever. Martin cleared Benny of suspicion until the vampire attacks started. He didn't run around seeing Benny attacking people on the street. He told Sam that for several weeks Benny seemed on the up and up and wasn't doing anything wrong.
ReplyDeleteDean may not have restrained Sam when Sam trusted Amy, but he lied to him, said that he trusted Sam's judgement and then went and killed Amy because he thought he knew better. If Sam had not trusted Dean that Dean believed him, Dean would probably have tied him up "for his own good" to stop Amy. But Sam believed Dean's lies. Sam made a mistake. He should have told Dean that since Dean vouched for Benny, everything was copacetic and then snuck back and taken on Benny with Martin. Right, because that's Dean's rule and Sam's only mistake was being honest with Dean.
I have a love/hate relationship with DSOTM; on the one hand it had some really touching moments (the fireworks scenes ... that was clearly a good memory for not only Dean but young Sam, too!) and really creepy moments (Zach fondling "Evil Mary" stands out and Sam's scene with "Bones" tugged at my heartstrings and on other hand, you're exactly right and Dean was acting like he and "his (sometimes irrationally) 'hurt feelings' were at "the center of the universe". Dean was about 22 when Sam left for Stanford, "too old" to be entitled to feel such extreme rejection because Sam did something many normal 18 year olds aspire to - leave home and go to college.
ReplyDeleteThe stuff about Cas bringing Sam back was added in at the last minute of season 6. The actors didn't play it that way for most of the season and none of it made any sense to me onscreen. Even then, he didn't know Sam was soulless.
ReplyDeleteLucifer and Michael had caused huge chaos on Earth and there was no real reason to doubt Raphael would do the same, or worse. The easiest way to stop him was the souls. Even with everything else he was still losing. Some of it was about power, sure, but most of it was about stopping Raphael.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say Cas is excused. Naomi repeatedly reminded him of his mistakes. So did Dean. Cas died and sacrificed his sanity to try to make up for what he did, and then decided to stay alone in Purgatory where he probably would have died again (or worse). He's spent years trying to make up for his mistakes.
ReplyDeleteThe angel trial was rushed and half-written, mostly to cause them fall, so we barely ever saw it. I never knew if we were supposed to even care. If they ever have an actual story, then I'd like everyone to be involved, but I also hope they find a way to give Cas his own identity in the dynamics of the group. In season 5 they had the chance to do this but he mostly showed up to be comic relief or to suffer, and after season 5 they stopped trying.
ReplyDeleteJim Michael said on Twitter that she is.
ReplyDeleteOne of Sam's happiest memories was of a time when he ran away for weeks and Dean probably thought he was dead, and thought he'd again failed at protecting his brother. He also implied a very ugly reaction from John, one which I can't even imagine. I can see why Dean was upset. Sam may not have intentionally meant to hurt Dean, but a memory like that is going to cause real pain.
ReplyDeleteI hated that episode as it was just more miserable angst that was never properly dealt with.
First of all, I cannot get over how short this is in comparison to the article you did on Dean; 1,100 words in comparison to 3,700. And unfortunately it’s not a case of quality over quantity either because this piece of writing is really nothing more than a superficial, cursory, almost formulaic glance at Sam with no insight and no analysis whatsoever. All you have focused on is the problem of Sam and what he did, without even attempting to address why.
ReplyDeleteFor example, there was no effort made to address why Sam had a problem with Benny, it was merely hand-waved off as being ‘inorganic’ and 'contrived'. There were many reasons why Sam might have had a problem with Benny; Dean’s insistence on telling Sam nothing about him, the fact that he was a vampire who put Dean in danger, the possibility that Dean was repeating Sam’s own mistakes etc, Your advice that Sam should interact with Benny because ‘Benny is popular and alienating him from popular characters never works’ is almost insulting because it as if you are suggesting that Sam can only gain popularity by proxy.
There was no insight given into Sam's feelings of lack of self worth nor the role others played in them (though I notice you went to great lengths in the Dean article to discuss how detrimental the responsibility of Sam was to Dean's mental health), all you have said is that they should not focus on them because they are 'weaknesses'. Do you not realise that not only can 'weakness' be turned to strengths (as Sam as done many times) but there is a huge amount to be learned about Sam from these 'weaknesses'. You gain insight into a person, what motivates them, what drives them and a more interested writer would have been able to tease these out.
Your line that ‘It's difficult to relate to Sam when we don't even know what makes him tick’ really sums up your article. It’s not difficult to relate to Sam. It’s only difficult to relate to Sam when you don’t put any time and effort into relating to Sam.
Supernatural with Cas rarely owning his mistakes.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this tumblr user accusing the author of this article of Sam bashing when Sam fans, all season 8, have been saying the same thing? I've seen it all over. That was OOC for Sam not to look for Dean, that it taints Sam and the show. It's also been a widely voiced complaint from Sam fans that we don't get much look at Sam as a person.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it Sam bashing to want Sam to have more agency, and a better story, and not go through yet another reiteration of Something Wrong With Sam. It was interesting in S4. In S6 we had soulless Sam--whole Sam wasn't even present for half the season, in S7 we had Sam with hallucinations. Each time it deflects from Sam being allowed to be himself, from the audience getting to know him better, and from Sam getting to evolve as a character. We want a stronger story for Sam, something more character driven and celebrating of the complex character he is, rather than seeing him buried yet again under a contrived supernatural ailment while Dean hand-wrings and worries and the show skips on endless repeat. It locks Dean in as well.
And isn't it interesting that a noisy faction of Supernatural fandom has openly hated on Castiel, thinks he's ruined the show and ruined the fandom, insists that SPN is only about the brothers--but when it comes time to discuss Sam, suddenly the brothers not having other people is a big problem, and the show needs to give Sam other friends, and he should be closer to Castiel, who magically becomes acceptable if he's Sam's friend instead of especially close to Dean.
FTR I am all for Sam and Castiel's friendship being developed, and think it's weird that it hasn't already. We are told they're friends, we've seen some proof of it, but they have so few scenes together. I would like to see Sam be close to others outside of Dean. It would also help the show and the relationships to look at Sam and Dean as part of a wider found family, and explore the Sam and Dean and Cas dynamic as a trio, have them learn to work together. It would bring out interesting lights in all the characters, and in multiple relationships.
When Sacrifice FINALLY showed how Sam felt , it made a big impact on how we see Sam. I felt even more for him than i already do. In season 6 he didnt go with image of Jessica because he" didnt want to leave his brother alone out there".Thats one reason the beginning of season 8 made no sense. That could've been saved if there was something else that was really going on due to why he didnt look for Dean.
ReplyDeleteThey are better as a team .I rather not see them with conflict between each other. I miss the fun teasing they had with one another , the bantering.
I don't think Sam needs a separate friend , the other characters just need to emotionally connect with him more just like they do with Dean. Its always Dean having a connection with person being saved with Sam having to walk away or be wallpaper. (by the way im not bashing on Dean, I love them both) I like them unhealthy and codependent . I dont want to watch normally functioning brothers with normal lives. That wouldnt be interesting and unique.
Thank you for your constructive criticism. And yes I relate to Dean much better than I do Sam or Cas. I partially blame the writing (the differences in POV and inequality) and partially my own personal experiences and preferences for characters in fiction. Although, for people to say that I shouldn't be writing about Sam at all is extremely insulting (yes I've checked the link below). On top of that your accusation that I don`t put time and effort into relating to him is baseless since you don`t know me at all. By the way, you cannot control which characters you like and which characters are not easy to relate to. It's subjective and people cannot force themselves to like characters equally, because their personalities are fundamentally different.
ReplyDeleteHm, good point about definite reason, I find interesting getting into Sam's mind space, but I agree that lack of his emotional POV in the show makes harder finding one reasonable explanation.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion even at the beginning Sam's issues with Benny were about Dean, not about Benny as person. Dean has hidden Benny from him, didn't tell him what happened in Purgatory, he was kicking Sam emotionally about giving up on hunting life. And then he took off to help Benny without giving Sam any kind of explanation. When Sam met Benny for the first time, he didn't know about him anything beside the fact that he was vampire and that apparently his brother trusts him more. Then the only things Dean chooses as arguments are 1) he saved my life (we saw how it ended when Sam said the same thing about Ruby) 2) he's my friend (well, Amy was friend of Sam but that didn't stop Dean from killing her).
So Sam didn't trust Benny and was angry with Dean about excluding him in favor of monster. And then in Southern Comfort Dean under the influence of the coin starts blaming him all things he's done in his life (even the ones that weren't really Sam's fault, like being soulless) and puts Benny in comparison as perfect brother. And that leads Sam into thinking things I wrote in previous comment.
I know I have been called a Sam hater because I have complained so much this season that Sam is NOT the Sam of the last 7 years. If I did not love Sam like family, I would not care what has happened to him, it is because I feel betrayed the way he has been written this year that I complain.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if Jared would not pull so many pranks and get Misha to laugh they would have more scenes together..I would love to see Sam and Cas have many more scenes together.
I find it bullshit excuse. Jared is professional and it's not like he can't shoot the scene with Misha. The reason why there's not many Sam/Cas scenes is because Spn TPTB don't think it's needed by fans. There's so much pressure to do more brother scenes and campaigns to have more Dean/Cas scenes, but were there ever protests that Sam and Cas don't get enough screen time together? Tbh, sometimes I'm glad that it's the case because thanks to that Sam and Cas relationship is pretty consistent and fanservice free. They care about each other a lot, it's not like they aren't friends already, the only thing that is missing is more scenes between them. It was absurd in this season that every time Dean had deep conversation with Cas, Sam magically disappeared from the room. If Cas is going to be in 14 episodes next season, he has to have scenes both with both Sam and Dean, as individuals and as Team Free Will.
ReplyDeleteI am only going by what Jared and Misha have said about their scenes together and some outtakes that have been on the DVDs. Jared is famous for his pranks and Jensen has been called a machine as he does not usually break up.
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm aware of that. Maybe it was like this at the beginning, I guess we'll never really know. But I can't help but feel that this reason is insulting towards Jared as the actor. (sorry, I hope I didn't come off as aggressive, it wasn't my intention.)
ReplyDeleteDean started to show dislike for dogs after season 3 - after he was torn to shreds by hellhound which was strong enough trauma to make him afraid of all dogs.
ReplyDeleteAs for DSOTM, it was always obvious to me that Sam and Dean memories were manipulated by Zachariah who made sure that Dean would only see Sam's best memories without him. Let's remember that when they got to the neutral place - Joshua garden - both Sam and Dean chose as the same memory of the day they spent together in Cleveland Botanical Gardens. But uh, yes, this episodes was so painful.
I agree with PinkMoose in that that excuse is weak. There have been many, many outtakes on the DVD's which show Jensen and Misha messing about they both have spoken about the fun they have with each other on set. Misha Collins has jokingly stated that what he's most worried about in relation to his directorial debut is that Jared AND Jensen will mess with him. At the Con in Italy someone (I think it might have been Rob Benedict) spoke of how Jensen would try to get him to break character so this lightheartedness and messing about on set is not solely confined to one actor.
ReplyDeleteJared is also a professional and his professionalism has also been spoken about. Were he not then he would not be employed.
*Facepalm* I'm a moron. Of course that's the reason! Yeah, I'm of the opinion, too, that at least after the boys first "solo" memories, the rest of their memories were cherry-picked by Zachariah to show Sam's "solo" memories in the most "anti-Family (meaning Dean- as- Sam's family) light" to drive Dean even closer to saying Yes to Michael, by "showing Dean" how much of "Sam's Life Memories" were "happiest" on the occasions after Sam 'ditched' John and Dean". You're exactly right about their shared "Garden Memory". DSOTM was originally supposed to air after MBV where Dean prayed for someone "up there" to help him.
ReplyDeleteNo, and I did not see you as being aggressive. Misha is very easy to make laugh, he does have a warped sense of humor, which is why I enjoy him so much. ;)
ReplyDelete"And isn't it interesting that a noisy faction of Supernatural fandom has openly hated on Castiel, thinks he's ruined the show and ruined the fandom, insists that SPN is only about the brothers." I don't understand. You agree with what this tumblr user wrote about Sam and Cas friendship needing more developing, yet you bash them only for the fact that they like brothers relationship. Tbh, I'm tired of that treatment from some part of the fandom and being called derogative terms like "justdabruders fanz", it's really insulting. Since when thinking that Sam'n'Dean are the core of the show equals saying that no other relationships are needed? Since when being fan of brother bond is treated as something wrong? Yes, perhaps some fans don't like Castiel, but saying that it concerns all people who like Sam/Dean relationship, is no more truth than telling that all fans of Dean/Castiel relationship hates Sam.
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say it wasn't ok to think Sam and Dean are the core of the show? I think Sam and Dean are the center of the show. Where did I bash someone for liking the brother relationship? Where did I say all brother fans hate on Castiel?
ReplyDeleteI was referring specifically to fans who bash Castiel and say he ruined the show and ruined the brother relationship and ruined the fandom and who object to Sam and Dean having anyone other than each other--that only the brothers and their relationship matter and anyone who sees this any other way isn't a true fan--turning around and finding Castiel and other relationships acceptable when it has to do with Sam and Cas bonding.
The people from the show have repeatedly said they stopped writing Sam and Cas scenes because of Jared's pranking to get Misha to laugh. Actually a lot of fans--from all different preferences--have expressed a wish to see more Sam and Castiel scenes. True it's not the same vocalness as Sam and Dean or Dean and Cas. I'd love to see more Sam and Dean and Cas scenes, and Sam and Cas scenes and think it can be accomplished without fewer Sam and Dean scenes or Dean and Cas. And btw, Dean and Cas having scenes alone isn't fanservice, although I've seen enough times the whole relationship get dismissed as such, even when it's a heartfelt, earned emotional honest moment between them. You maybe don't think that but you sound like you're implying that Sam and Cas's relationship is more honest while Dean and Castiel's is "fanservice" based simply because it's popular. Sam and Dean are popular too, is that fanservice?
ReplyDeleteEither away, I agree SPN has a tendency to compartmentalize its relationships too much, which is really frustrating and as this article and discussion has unpacked, is hurting the quality of the character arcs.
I don't think it's fanservice, as one of SPN's flawed habits that TPTB seem to find it hard to break.
Ok... I assume you know fans like this. Because I didn't see anyone saying things like this. And you said that in relation to this specific post, so I've thought it's about it.
ReplyDeleteThe poster in question is a username I'm familiar with and I avoid because my personal experience has been that they bash Dean/Castiel and dislike destiel shippers. They also have a lot of agreement to their post from a corner of tumblr fandom that has frequently bashed and attempted to shame fans for not being real fans because they care deeply about the Dean and Cas relationship and contain a lot of anti-Castiel viewpoints. While I do think this is a small faction of Sam/Dean shippers, I can't presume to say what most Sam/Dean fans think, the viewpoint exists and they are very loud and they do go out of their way to bully Dean/Cas shippers and attempt to discredit their pov at every opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI have specifically seen fans (on more than one site) who very clearly hate on Castiel and have blamed him and blamed him and have stated that it's totally unacceptable for the brothers to be close to anyone else but each other because that's not what the show is about and Castiel is a useless horrible character who needs to leave then cry out out for Sam and Castiel to bond.
I'm not saying that all Dean and Cas scenes are is fanservice, I love their relationship btw. But there are fanservice moments - for example the scene with Cas doing groceries to make up to Dean, it infantilized Cas so grossly. Famous (or infamous) trenchcoat scene was fanservice. It's the same with Sam and Dean ("workplace romance vibe" etc.). And there's much more drama in those two relationships, sometimes it feels like some conflicts are forced just to make them more involving.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to lie, I find the subtlety of Sam and Cas relationship the most interesting and it feels the most natural for me, because as I said it's not affected by fans expectations.
Thanks for clarifying, yes there are some issues on the show along those lines. Which scenes feel like fanservice and which seemed organic are debateable but I get your point about forced conflict and things played for laughs that don't need to be. Forgive me, I'm wearied out from watching as every meaningful Dean-Cas moment, things that seem perfectly in line with who they are as people and their history, gets torn apart in this fandom as cheap fanservice.
ReplyDeleteBut back to topic, I think Sam and Castiel's relationship is interesting and the way they reflect each other's issues, what they have in common, a lot more to explore there. Sam does relate to Castiel and identifies with what he went through and his need to make amends.
It all comes down to personal experience. I could say that I have a lot of negative experience with destiel shippers. That's why I try to avoid extreme shippers from both sides. And it's possible to have problems with Castiel as character and think that if he has big part in the show, he needs to have bond with Sam, not only with Dean. Which is, as we both agree, true.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest shit about Sam I've ever read and I have read much of it.
ReplyDeleteMaybe someone who doesn't really care about Sam and is all
Dean/Dean+Cas, shouldn't write something like this. The lack of analysis
of his character is simply insulting to Sam-fans.
Oh, I feel you, I mean, my first reply to your comment was also caused by being tired of reactions from some parts of this fandom. I might have projected that into your comment and for that I'm sorry. It would be nice if fandom was safe place to discuss relationship without trying to prove that one is better than the other and trying to cheapen it.
ReplyDeleteYes, Cas and Sam has much potential together, their characters dynamic is interesting mix of opposites and similarities, and I hope will be used next season.
This is true and in saying that I am not a Castiel fan which is why it would be meaningless for me to write a article on him. I am not sure the previous poster point was baseless you clearly do not relate to Sam so therefore will only see the surface , the points that get you to point A to point D without bothering with all the points inbetween. Sam is far more complex than both your article and some posters here think you can write about Sam but in not liking him or really even caring you cannot do him justice.
ReplyDeleteI hesitated in saying it, but I couldn't agree more w/you. This article was very "superficial." From the article, I could see that the OP is not that interested in Sam, which is fine. As you and others have stated, I just don't think those who aren't interested in him should be writing about him.
ReplyDeleteWho was spying Sam in 8.01?
ReplyDeleteI think these articles are meant to give an in-depth analysis of the character and his role over the course of the season. Again, I hate to say it, but this article wasn't as substantive as the one for Dean. It hit all the surface stuff and nothing else.
ReplyDeleteThe author's line about it being hard to relate to Sam was evident from the article, itself. I know nothing about her but could tell from the article that she has a hard time relating to Sam. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a difficult time coming up w/material for this article, which may explain its length.
That's why I think only those who like the characters, are invested in them, and willing to see their various sides should write this type of article. That's JMO though. YMMV.
Favoritism can also cloud judgment. When people support a character so much that they start to overlook his flaws, then an opinion piece can also present wrong arguments that aren't supported in canon simply because the person invested in the character doesn't want to accept these flaws. I think every fan at some point is guilty of that, me included.
ReplyDeletefair enough. Although I see a problem when someone starts writing about a show, but isn't really a fan of it. it can also turn every review into routine work with no substance at all. bias comes into play when you are a fan of something, because there will always be things that the writer personally likes or dislikes as opposed to someone who just doesn't care about the show overall and just does the job.
ReplyDeleteMy problem w/this argument is it paints Jared in a very negative, unprof'l light.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know he's pulled pranks but am I really supposed to believe that the writers want to write Sam/Cas scenes but they just can't b/c Jared is such an unprof'l prankster that it would all be for naught anyway?!?!?! Am I supposed to believe that Jared can't be serious for two darn seconds to do his job? And no one has complained about this behavior? They just let it slide and said, "Forget the Sam/Cas relationship."
If that were remotely true, then what about Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Garth, Krissy, and Charlie? Are we to assume Jared jokes around w/them too, and that's why real relationships weren't established w/these characters either? Why is Jared still employed if he doesn't know when it's time to be serious?
I think it is much more likely that the writers do not concern themselves w/developing relationships for Sam. It's not just Castiel with whom Sam has no relationship; there are plenty of recurring guest stars that have no relationship w/Sam. Jared can't prank them all!
Don't apologize! It's very insulting. I just ranted about that up above. Haha :-)
ReplyDeleteExactly! Yes, Jared and Jensen (!) pull pranks on people. Yes, it's possible that more on Misha because they have more scenes together and he and Jared are always cracking up around each other. But! They. Are. Professional. Adult. Actors. If writers will write them scene with some character, then they will play it. End of the topic.
ReplyDeleteAfter season 2, this show made it habit that it will always be Dean who makes more fundamental connection with all important characters. Bobby, Castiel, Benny, Kevin, Charlie, Krissy, Garth, Anna, Jo, Gabriel... and it's true even for characters showing for one episode.
This is not Jared's fault, it's bad writing.
I think Carver said in some interview that it was Don? (But I may be wrong. If it's true, that's really creepy and without sense.)
ReplyDeletei get what you're saying. i really do. and this isn't me trying to change your mind but an analysis, no matter the depth to which it goes to, is still an opinion.
ReplyDeletewas this as deep diggy as the others, no. does that invalidate the author's rite to share their opinion regardless of how deep diggy it was, no.
these aren't some academic reviews of characters that will be the benchmark of how all should view them (and even if it was them liking the characters or being "invested" wouldn't be required) as true facts. it's an opinion piece on an entertainment site from a fan of the show.
but like you said ymmv and if you took this whole string of articles as super serious or something i guess you'd see it differently...
Yeah . . . Carver or Singer confirmed that it was Don.
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't take them as super serious, and I understand what you're saying. I guess after the depth of detail in the Dean article (and presumably the Cas article if there is one coming), I was surprised that the Sam article wasn't that "deep." You're also right that this is just the author's opinion.
ReplyDeleteI mean no offense to anyone, including the author, but it seems like she doesn't have much to say about Sam in general. I'm not sure if that's b/c she doesn't really care about Sam or what, but I there wasn't much substance re: Sam in this article. If one doesn't have much to say about X character, for that reason alone, I would think an article that discusses Sam's role in both seasons 8 and 9 would have been given to someone who is interested in his character and wants to speculate about him.
That's just how I saw the article. Again, I mean no offense to anyone who saw it differently.
I'll dial back my previous comments a little bit and say one doesn't have to like the character in order to write about him, but I do think one has to be interested in the character for an article like this. There has to be interest on a deeper level. I don't sense that interest from your article, which is why I think you may not have been the best person to write it.
ReplyDeleteBut then, you can write what you want!
I'm pretty sure I was posting on Supernatural.tv at the time, and I remember ranting about the episode back then. I HATED it and still do. There were a good group of us who didn't like it.
ReplyDeleteoh no, i didn't see what you said as offensive (towards me) or thought you personally took it seriously. but i was just agreeing with the point you put forward that if you were expecting something more serious or in depth as was done before it comes across differently, you know?
ReplyDeleteand i get it because a sam fan is like a "sam enthusiast (lol)" in general. in that they have a wider wealth of not only canon references to draw from to explore and character tidbits, but they also have an ear to the ground for the topics of discussion that would be of interest or topics often overlooked in fandom/canon. and if you were looking forward to an article that would have that level of pointed discussion starters that were in the other articles it may be less enjoyable.
so i apologize if my replies to you came across as if i was saying you couldn't feel a certain way about the actual content of the article in any capacity.
- I find it bullshit excuse. Jared is professional and it's not like he can't shoot the scene with Misha. -
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU! I made the exact same statement when this "excuse" of why they never have Cas and Sam in the same scenes came up about a month ago. Actors have been cracking each other up on set/stage since the beginning of acting - you think someone wasn't laughing during a rehearsal of Oedipus? - but they soldier on because they're professionals. You put the outtakes on a reel and get your ass back to work.
The problem I had w/this episode is that it was very Dean-focused. Only his feelings and thoughts were important. No consideration was given to Sam at all. It was written like Sam was wrong b/c Dean felt he was wrong. I remember reading many rants against Sam after DSOTM. There was no balance to the episode.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I'm not a fan of it. If there had been any balance in the presentation of the Heavens and the boys' feelings, then maybe it wouldn't have ticked me off so much.
Again, I think you've raised some really good points, and much of it makes sense. I just wish the show had been a bit more clear on the whole Sam/Benny thing.
ReplyDeleteOh, no apologies necessary! I did not think you were saying I couldn't feel the way I did so don't worry about that :-)
ReplyDeleteI am a bi-bro or brother fan. I honestly don't have a favorite. I enjoy reading in-depth articles and/or speculation about them both, so you're right in that I found this article disappointing. I just think there are lots of things that could have been said about Sam that were not touched upon in this article,
I have a feeling you could be right. no matter who is at fault, the guys are in their thirties. Let them grow up and let their relationship mature instead of rehashing issues they already tackled.
ReplyDelete