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| 8.23 - Sacrifice |
New challenges for human Cas?
Looking back on the last season and how Castiel's journey as an angel came to an abrupt conclusion, one can say that we'll have a few things coming up next season that might significantly change the approach to writing this character.In the SpinOff Online interview for season 8, Supernatural writer Daniel Loflin talked about the challenges of writing for a character with too much powers at his disposal. The most crucial problem in writing a story with two human heroes seems to be that they shouldn't get too much support, because it undermines the challenges the Winchesters usually overcome. But what about human Castiel?
In the season finale the show proceeded to show Metatron taking away Castiel's grace, which left the audience wondering whether his storyline will take Cas away from the role of a confidante, who is off-screen, and instead push for a more central storytelling. With Jeremy Carver recently implying that we will get to understand his character in new ways, including his connections to other people, we can expect things to shake up a little bit.
Heaven vs Hell in season 9?
One such thing would be the hunt for his grace and the ultimate fight in a world full of fallen angels with Metatron as the antagonist. We have seen how the fall has affected the entire world, and this is something of a fundamental change in the show. The world can finally become aware that supernatural creatures exist, and additionally, we get to see how fallen angels integrate into the human world, discovering whether they are a threat or not. An even more interesting scenario seems to be how the loss of the angels might affect the human souls that are still in heaven, for example, people like Bobby, and Ellen and Jo, Ash, and several others. Will they be playing a potential role from the other side?And there's one thing left that also alludes to season 9 extending the conflict between heaven and hell. Key players like Crowley and Cas are fundamentally changed after all, which means others will step up. One such character is Abaddon, who barely survived her confrontation with Sam. The imminent threat of demons wanting revenge for the mere attempt to close the gates of hell might force Sam and Dean into an outright war.
How will Castiel be integrated into the story? A recap
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| 5.04 - The End |
Fans still speculate, whether the reality created by another angel was an accurate representation of Castiel becoming human, or whether it was all a hoax by Zachariah. We will probably never know and it's not exactly something that everybody wants to see becoming real.
As season 5 progressed, this hopelessness certainly increased, but in the end, Castiel still retained a sense of belonging and actively chose to prevent another Apocalypse. As we know, things only got worse - it wouldn't be Supernatural if they didn't - and we watched his journey from becoming a wrathful God to facing his death (I lost count how many times he died. But Dean still holds the record).
Season 7, then, was driven by loss and Dean's feelings, to the point where even Bobby and Sam brought it up in a conversation (7.09). Castiel ultimately came back, chose to fight side by side with Dean against Dick Roman, and that's how the dynamic duo landed in Purgatory. Once Dean was reunited with him, we were introduced to another conflict that strongly played with perception, especially Dean's. He faced another loss and his subsequent guilt continued to play out on screen until the moment Castiel came back. Cas carried his own burden independently, and was very close to giving up, initially choosing to be a part of Sam and Dean's world, before his wish to fix his mistakes took over.
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| 8.08 - Hunteri Heroici |
This motivation established his entire journey for the rest of season 8, especially the willingness to atone for his sins. Sadly, things are never that easy and his struggles were highlighted when Naomi brainwashed him into repeating all those mistakes again. Unlike his deal with Crowley, this betrayal was not one driven by agency, because Castiel was completely robbed of it. He arguably wasn't the same from the moment she introduced herself and started her reprogramming, and the ultimate killing blow should've been killing Dean, the human he cares about the most. We know that Castiel's affection for him overpowered Naomi's desire to see Dean dead, and with the help of the tablet, Cas was back again. But even the real angel makes mistakes (as there is no perfection and humanity isn't perfect either) and one of those mistakes was trusting Metatron in the end and hoping that he can help out. Cas voicing that he doesn't trust Dean is a questionable choice, though. A paragon of humanity like Dean Winchester, flawed and so very human, is something that should make the choice for Cas easier, rather than a random angel he meets on street. I'm still confused about that particular scene.
However, we can definitely say that too much heart was always Castiel's problem. It seems to me that his emotions, his ability to have doubts and feel affection for humanity, is something that is causing him a lot of trouble. He's not the only one, though. In fact, I'd argue that characters like Naomi show a remarkable strength and agency despite the general tendency to show angels as being obedient soldiers. Angels aren't foes against humanity and they shouldn't be treated as such, because they often experience the same family struggles that humans do. There's a long list of angels, who have a big heart and can fight against what essentially means keeping them in line. More importantly, the war in heaven is a reflection of people being lost when a parent abandons them, when people feel as if they don't have someone to guide them along the way. But it's also a necessary step for angels as well as humans, because it gives them the ability to take on responsibility and to make their own choices rather than just relying on someone else. And this is a motive Dean Winchester stands for and it's also not surprising, considering he represents the role of a father, mother and brother for Sam, who often feels lost without Dean's guidance.
So where will Castiel stand in all of this as a human?
I won't argue that he can understand free will better as a human. It seems that he possesses the ability to make his own choices, but still looks for guidance and approval. Being human shouldn't make him a completely different person and it wouldn't make sense for him to make a 180° turn in how he behaves and responds to human things. After all, it's just the difference between observing humanity and being part of it, but a species doesn't determine personality.And that's why I still expect him to be confused about certain things, but also respond to it out of necessity and learn from it. I also expect him to feel the longing for heaven and to fight to get his grace back. His wish to fight for both heaven and humanity shouldn't change, even though he might be crippled by his guilt after trusting Metatron. Moreover, Misha Collins recently confirmed at a Convention that Cas still has all of his memories, so what we can expect is a reunion with Sam and Dean at some point. If things go well, Cas will acclimatize to humanity by fully experiencing the pros and cons of it, and Sam and Dean will be there to help him along the way. Bye bye trenchcoat, and welcome plaid shirts.
His relationship with Dean
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| 8.02 - What's up, Tiger Mommy |
One thing we know for certain: Things haven't been resolved at all between them, and with Cas becoming human these issues will come up again. His role as a human will take him away from being a guardian angel, and it will also help by giving us the opportunity to see him as more than a plot device who fixes problems.
Castiel's worth is not defined by being there for other people when things get rough.
Ultimately, he deserves his own point of view to conclude his redemption arc, which also includes his shaky relationship with Dean. Those issues that they both face, including not trusting each other fully, might force them to actually do so. It would be a welcome change to see them working side by side without Castiel disappearing after another hunt just because he can. In fact, Cas can fully become part of the team, perhaps even moving into the MoL bunker, researching with Sam, talking to Kevin and mending fences with Dean. The narrative importance of their relationship will carry over to season 9, and will also gain a new perspective with Cas being human, living a human life and for once, maybe making all the right choices.
Season 9 can't come soon enough and hopefully things will get better for all protagonists involved. But this is SPN. And we know how that usually works out.
What do you expect from human Cas?




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I'm sure that Cas storyline will be one of the most important ones in season 9. I really don't know if he will be like human Cas in 5.04, or different. Anyway, I love Castiel :) Awesome article!
ReplyDeleteAgree. I'd rather not see his storyline off-screen again. And I'm wary of separation. Sam, Dean and Cas working together is a highlight
ReplyDeleteAhhh, such a great article! You've voiced a lot of my thoughts too. I try not to speculate too much about S9, I want to be surprised when it airs ;) Still, I think it's a safe bet to think Cas will commandeer the other angels against Metatron and try to reclaim Heaven - I'm hoping for a scene when Cas gets the vial with his grace back BUT decides to remain a human, on Earth.
ReplyDeleteI am super excited to see Cas grow as a character and see him experience humanity. Great article!
ReplyDeleteAmazing article. My biggest fear for S9 is Cas being portrayed as clueless for comic relief. While I can handle a silly grocery scene, realistically Cas lived for quite some time as a human (Emmanuel) and should be able to handle the basics of human living. Praying for some kind of callback to that time for continuity's sake!
ReplyDeleteGreat article Veronika! I'm really excited to see where the writers go with Castiel next year since the challenge of "but he's superhuman and is too helpful!1!" won't be an excuse for the writers to ignore him anymore and he and Dean have so many issues to work out. I would LOVE for him to become a bunker regular so we could see their relationship develop (a lot of the "character" moments occurred at MoL headquarters in the 2nd half of S8 so it would be great for Cas to be part of more of those) and also so he could develop more of a bond with Sam; I think they have a lot to talk about that the show hasn't given time to yet. Mostly I just hope we see some good character development next year and that Season 9 handles human!Castiel's narrative arc well!
ReplyDeleteAmazing article, so fantastic! I really hope season 9 will be more of Cas together with Dean and Sam, and not separately, like in s8. Also really hoping for Dean and Cas to talk things through, and work on their relationship!
ReplyDeleteBut my biggest fear would be if Cas ended up like the broken fallen!Cas in "5.04 - The End", I really don't want that to happen, it would break my heart. So please, Carver, don't do that to Cas. Just don't. :'(
I really hope that they allow him to be strong. Sure, I'm not expecting him to bounce back right away and be ready for action, but I've been looking forward to a human, non-deus-ex-machina Cas for a very long time. I think he could be an integral part of the team, especially with his knowledge of lore, language, and observations throughout the years, and it will be really interesting to see his relationships with Dean, Sam, and maybe even Kevin develop over the course of the season. But I hope he doesn't lose TOO much of his cluelessness about pop culture and the like in the process... I enjoy that a little more than I should haha
ReplyDeleteAmazing article. I certainly hope they explore Cas' character more openly and that he finds his support with Sam and Dean. He's got a lot of his plate from the past 3 years, and it's about time he learns to start dealing with those in a healthy way. The brothers are going to play a big part in that and his story has a lot of potential.
ReplyDeleteSame here, it is what I am looking towards most. I think that Misha being a regular is just a good sign all around. (It's what got me though the finale..knowing they weren't going to do away with him yet again.) He deserves more screen time, and not like being a regular in season six, with like 5 minutes per episode in the beginning of that season..waiting for him to be on more again has been a painfully long wait.
ReplyDeleteAwesome write-up, and thorough. I'm excited at the possibilities the setup for Season 9 opens up for Castiel. Really, my main hope is even more character development and give him his agency and a stronger sense of his value as himself--let him see why he's loved and wanted because of his heart and courage and friendship, powers or no powers. I really, really hope we get to see him reunited with Sam and Dean and more of the three of them working together. But I also hope to see Castiel continue to develop as an interesting character in his own right.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed this article. :) Castiel is my favorite character on the show, and the reason I became such a big fan. I'm so excited to see where his story will go as a human now, and I'm hoping his relationship with both brothers will be strengthened. I particularly enjoy the on screen chemistry that Jensen and Misha have and hope those two will be sharing a lot more scenes next season. I do expect at some point, perhaps in season 10, Castiel will regain his powers one more, and then he'll get to make the choice for himself: Does he want to stay and angel and return to heaven, or does he want to live out his life as a human on Earth? It was pretty horrible to see Metatron do that to him, so I'd like to see him get his powers back, so the choice can ultimately be his in the end. I expect it'll be rough for Castiel to adjust to being human, but I hope Dean and Sam will be supportive. Dean wasn't happy to see what Castiel turned into in "The End" and it would be lovely to see him actively steer Castiel away from that fate the best he can and in the process I hope eventually Castiel will rebuild his own confidence in himself.
ReplyDeleteVery nicely written and researched. I too am anxious to see how TPTB plan on exploring Castiel's character. I think we all are excited to learn more about him since we've just been given bits and pieces over the years. It is my hope that he exhibits at least some of the powers Anna displayed. Keep him badass yet still very human. Shouldn't be too difficult for them, they write Sam and Dean after all.
ReplyDeleteAre we going to have different speculations about each character?.
ReplyDeleteI like Cas and I must admit Sam and him are alike in different ways. Cas came a long way, pissing a lot of people off above so he would be a target no doubt.
I don't believe he will be humanly human or the vessel underneath will show. But he may be weaker, therefore it will take half the season him being not so powerful. or less-I dunno, but he might haveto do the Winchesters' hunter style for a while :)
Great job with the thread.
I'm hoping for a lot more screen time for Castiel next season, a change of wardrobe, and Cas meeting and spending time with other characters (Jody, Charlie). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he's not played for comic relief too much. There was a lot of good stuff between Cas and Dean this season, and I hope that's a trend that continues.
ReplyDeleteThe best thing about Cas being human is that the writers don't need to contrive reasons to keep him off screen for extended periods of time because he's "too powerful". Hopefully we'll get to spend some quality time with Cas as a character, not a plot device.
So yeah, I basically agree with this article. :)
Awesome article! Loved it, everything I would love to see for our Castiel. Can't wait for s9, a stronger relationship with Sam and Dean, kicking butt together.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this article Veronica, it is wonderful and really includes all my thoughts on the subject. I hope TPTB read it to see how much we care for this character, and decide to take that into account when planning his storyline for this season.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, how do you create threads?.
ReplyDeleteVeronika joined the SpoilerTV team as one of our writers. Only our team can post articles.
ReplyDeleteHope that helps :)
Congrats on your first post Veronika and welcome to the team.
ReplyDeleteThanks, just wanted to ask :)
ReplyDeleteYuck, Yuck, Yuckity-Yuck!!!
ReplyDeleteAll my worst fears have come to pass. Castiel is getting to become the third 'Winchester brother' complete with Plaid shirts. I can't think of anything worse!
Carver, you have ruined this show!
X
Sam and Dean, my marvellous brothers, I will always remember you as you were in the earlier seasons. two brothers pranking, eating and sleeping in the Impala, living and dying for each other, fighting evil and getting a rush out of saving lives.
Two special brothers with a so strong bond that we will probably never see on a TV series again. Thanks Sam and Dean for the pleasure you have given me by watching your adventures!
Thank you :)
ReplyDeleteThe last part about rebuilding his confidence is particularly important. I totally agree.
ReplyDeleteThanks!
ReplyDeleteGreat article! I hope that writers let Cas deal with his problems (I'm still waiting for a talk between him and Dean about the Naomi's control), because he was suicidal and we can't ignore that (especially, when he probably will blame himself for the fall of the angels). I hope Cas meets also Charlie in the next season :)
ReplyDeleteIt would be an interesting premise and one definite way to take season 9. I am more interested in seeing how they cure Sam and where the boys' relationship will go. I've got this feeling it's going to be the boys, Cas, Crowley, and Kevin against the world at this point. The angels are already going to be upset and mankind. We've known that for ages. After season 8, Crowley may be changed.
ReplyDeleteGood job veronica!
ReplyDeleteoh!!I'm so happy to have Cas as a regular in season 9...
ReplyDeleteNice article Veronika :D
Absolutely wonderful article. I really hope they explore the human Cas storyline fully and don't have him suddenly retrieving his grace in the second episode or something, there's so much potential in this and I'm so excited!
ReplyDeleteI was pretty surprised that Dean and Cas' relationship troubles weren't resolved at the end of the season, but I think the fact that the writers have kept this arc going beyond season 8 points to an even bigger climax of thoughts and feelings in a real TALK, which they desperately need, and this will probably tie in with Cas' whole redemption arc as we know he hasn't forgiven himself for what he put Dean through.
Anyway, yes, brilliant :)
Wow, what a great article about Cas. I was thrilled to read this as I don't usually see unbiased articles about him here. I think you fully explored all aspects of Cas' story and I'm wildly excited to see Season 9. I hope to see him at the MOL and I do hope he gets the opportunity to work with Sam and Dean and truly become a character with agency, part of Team Free Will again. In addition, I want to see Cas and Dean's relationship have some happy times at least once. Season 9 is going to be devine!
ReplyDeleteOh and also Cas and Sam finally having a brotherly relationship of their own would be just perfect, Sam's heartbreaking speech at the end of 'Sacrifice' hinted at a little jealously of Cas (and Benny), so it'd be nice to see them work out a comfortable friendship of some kind together.
ReplyDeleteSeriously WONDERFUL job for your first article. Well written and nonbiased and you covered everything. I was thrilled to read it and actually it will make me want to read Spoiler TV again as I had stopped. Well done!
ReplyDeleteI can't say that much about season 5 was brilliant for me. I guess they could have ended in season 2, or season 4, the two best seasons of the show, but I'm happy for some of the last three seasons, I think there's been some great concepts and episodes amidst the mistakes. I don't feel like it's limping along any more than I did in season 5.
ReplyDeleteGreat article! It's truly refreshing to read a piece with intelligent insight on Cas' story arc and thorough speculation.
ReplyDeleteI would argue that the season finale presented the proof of significative character and relationship development for both Dean and Cas as they *did*, finally, work together; in fact, even though they had different agendas and opinions, they still helped each other as one would expect from a trusting (despite all hardships, granted), intimate relationship that's ultimately based on free choice and that we've seen progressively become a pact between equals. It went very well in 8x23 so I hope that this trend can continue, especially as Cas struggles with his new condition.
It meant a lot as well that after a whole season of being abandoned by Cas, but also of learning the value of letting go, Dean, despite having expressed his need for Cas and a strong desire to have him as part of team Winchester, understood the deep motivations behind Cas' will to complete his self-imposed mission of closing the gates of Heaven and stood behind him when it counted the most - and yet, when it was most difficult for him. I think this, too, is an important development in Dean's character that affected, and can still affect, Dean and Cas' relationship in a very positive way, so I'm looking forward to seeing where it will go from this fundamental subversion of Dean's previous patterns in 8x23 and how it's gonna influence the dynamic between the two.
Finally, I'm excited about the new turn that Carver seemingly planned for Cas' story and about his character getting further explored. As you pointed out, Cas needs to learn that he matters as an individual and not just as a provider of strenght, superhuman power and protection, and being human, whether it's forever or temporary, will force him to go through this path. And who knows, maybe Cas will get the chance to expand his network of human acquaintances (did anybody say Charlie and Garth?) Basically, I'm just really enthusiastic about this new perspective on his character and where it will lead us! I can't wait for s9 to begin... : )
"Cas can fully become part of the team, perhaps even moving into the MoL bunker, researching with Sam, talking to Kevin and mending fences with Dean"
ReplyDeletePlease no! This my biggest fear about the Cas as human storyline. I do NOT want to watch that. I like Cas fine but feel he is best used sparingly. No way do i want him moving into the bunker, riding around in the back of the Impala, tagging along for every hunt. That is not Supernatural. It is not a story I care about. Not because I hate Cas. I don't. Just because it would fundamentally change the basic premis / structure of the the show and would disrupt and detract from the central relationship between Sam and Dean.
Yes sometimes it fits and I can enjoy those moments for what they are . However not all the time I am not enthralled with the human Cas sl but was fully expecting it at some point . If we are now dealing with this then they need to develop a more genuine relationship between him and Sam and not Sam disappears as Cas and Dean talk . The finale established the brothers relationship back at the heart and made it clear where Dean stands so as long has that is kept in place then Castiel being a regular next season and human might not be the issue I will have .
ReplyDeleteI saw it coming too...like all season I just started to accept that Cas was gonna fall. I agree, the 3 of them need to be more united. The dynamic is definitely different when it is Dean and Cas, verses Dean, Cas and Sam. It is like, Sam comes into the room and Cas shuts down and isn't so personal with him. I get that Dean has a special bond with Cas (which I love, and is like the thing I love most about the show) but it seems the 3 of them got more distant this season, like they don't even bother to write meaningful stuff for Cas and Sam, when we know Cas really cares about Sam too. I don't want there to be any more division, between them, between fans. It should not be about Dean choosing one or the other. I want this show to still be about family being more than blood.
ReplyDeletePoor Jimmy
ReplyDeleteI never wanted him to fall either. I'm just not trusting enough of these
ReplyDeletewriters to do right by him with him as a human. I really hope that he
moves into the bunker because I want to see him with Sam and Dean, not
separated from them. The relationship between Cas and Dean is one of the
main reasons I watch the show and I hope the writers respect their
relationship and work to fully repair it instead of keeping them apart
for a long time. I agree that I want him to eventually get his grace
back unless he honestly loves being a human better. I don't want him to
be be stuck as something he hates. I really don't know how much I'm
going to like human Cas because I love him as an angel. No more cool
glowing eyes and wing shadows now. I don't want to see him become a
different characters. I just can't help but be very leery of the writers
with this storyline. I'm going to be listening for more spoilers and
interviews as the new season comes closer so I can get more of a feel of
where they're going with it.
It would be interesting to see depowered Castiel interacting with Sam and Dean. And considering his situation, the most logical option is for him to move to the bunker.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you even comment on this article?
ReplyDeleteIt's great to see an article that explores Cas like this! I'm excited to read more from you here!
ReplyDeleteI have wishes and hopes and fears about everyone next season. I hope my fears are unfounded and that my wishes come true. I really hope to Cas's humanity explored well and not offscreen. I hope to have him as his own character, yes, but not being away from Dean all the time again. I hope his relationship with Dean keeps being developed and gets further explored. I hope Cas learns to let go of his guilt and start choosing based on his heart instead of his duty.
But I don't understand why there is no mention of possible/plausible romantic relationship for Castiel with Dean? That aspect of their relationship has been elevated beyond subtext to actual foreshadowing IMO (especially the entire bar scene in the finale). I just think it's something worth mentioning in articles about Supernatural, in the same way you might discuss Sam & Amelia or Dean & Lisa - or the way pre-canon unresolved tension in other tv pairings is discussed for example in early seasons of Castle for Castle & Beckett or X-Files for Mulder & Scully. It's nothing to be ashamed of or hush hush about. In fact, it's a great storyline with a lot of potential for season 9. (Otherwise, I quite enjoyed the article)
ReplyDeleteGreat article! All I want from season 9 is Cas sticking with Dean and Sam. TEAM FREE WILL! that's all I want. And for Cas and Dean to talk things out and trust each other (and maybe a little destiel, I LOVE dean and cas together)
ReplyDelete*whispers in the back* but what about sam
ReplyDeleteI'm very excited about season 9. As act 2 of a 3-act arc I expect it will be more troubled and end on a darker note, to raise the stakes even higher for the 10th and final season (I have no doubt there will be a 10th season). I didn't want Cas to fall from angel status, but the way it was done won me over, and now I hope he stays human for quite some time. I hope he'll spend time with the boys but also that he'll go off on his own, to discover who he is as a freestanding entity as well, now that he's lost his angel identity. I hope he won't be all lost clumsy puppy ("baby in a trenchcoat"), but will retain some badassery and fantastic skills with a blade or something. And talking about the trenchcoat, iconic as it is, I can't wait to see Cas in some other outfits (preferably a little less baggy – so I'm shallow, sue me). I would like it if Cas somehow went on a quest to find out more about his past and all those memories that Naomi has taken from him over the millennia. I don't exactly see HOW he could do that, as a human, but this is Supernatural and he still has connections. And of course I expect his relationship to Sam and especially Dean to deepen and develop new complexities, now that Cas can finally relate to them on the same human plane. And also, what will develop between Cas and all those fallen angels? Will he try to find them? Will they try to kill him? Will he unite and lead them?
ReplyDeleteYup! I would love Cas in the MOL bunker!!
ReplyDeleteAmen, Alene.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completely. Veronica didn't go into details here but I hope she'll bring it up in a future article. It's definitely a possibility on the show at this point, just like other pairings, as you said, and it has the same dignitiy, and it's worth discussing.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the great article, Veronika.
ReplyDeleteI hope the show decides to focus on Cas adjusting to like as a human and explore his relationship with Dean. I hope he, Sam and Dean will work as a team and I hope the writers stop using him as a plot device and start writing him as the wonderful character we know he can be.
Harmful behavior? Orgies and pot? Did I wake up in such a place as these are bad things?
ReplyDelete"But I don't understand why there is no mention of possible/plausible romantic relationship for Castiel with Dean? "
ReplyDeleteBecause Dean is 100% straight. All his romantic relationships have been with women. His fantasies are about women. His taste in porn is heterosexual. His only long term relationships have been with women. Dean has outright stated on the show that he is straight, and Jensen confirmed that at the recent JiB con. He talked about the bar scene with Aaron in EHH and said Dean was a heterosexual guy in an uncomfortable situation and that the scene was played for laughs.
There is no plausible possible romantic relationship.
I feel the Opposite of most here. I would love to see less Cas. I would like for them to finally tie loose ends with this character and for him to go the way of all other characters on the show. Time for this story to end/move on.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with ever last word. Need this Cas as the third wheel to end. Time for the character to go IMHO. They have taken his journey as far as I care to see it go.
ReplyDeleteI already commented above, but I left out one important thing. I want the romance between Cas and Dean to go from subtext to text in season 9. I left that out of my extensive comment because of some vague notion that it would be more considerate. But why? A same-sex romance is just as valid as any other, and it's clearly where this story wants to go. Those of us who support Destiel should probably make that known, right now when the writers are starting to hammer out the scripts for season 9.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'd like to see is for Cas to finally be able to make amends. He tried so hard this season but it was never enough and now he has caused the fall of pretty much all of heaven. I foresee a lot of even more guilt for him, but I hope being human will also give him the chance to experience some nice things. He didn't get much of those those last few seasons. I also wonder whether Ackles will get a lighter work-load next season because of his baby and if that leads to more Sam and Cas scenes. In any case, now that the brothers are back on track together I hope the writers take the time to fix Castiels and Dean's relationship, too. They've gotten better, but they are still not quite there. I also wouldn't opposed to seeing Naomi again, though I guess she's dead for good. Last but not least, I pray the writers don't use human Cas as comic relief; the occasional funny scene is great, but not if that's all he's used for. Fortunately, I think Carver knows better than to waste human Cas like that. They'll be screw ups for sure, but overall I'm quite excited for season 9, Cas and plenty more of TFW.
ReplyDeletewhat i want most of all is for them to use their time wisely with castiel. and by that i mean they now have the opportunity to not have development off screen and to properly integrate him into the story without the pitfalls him being so powerful gave him before. and that doesn't mean he has to be in every episode but it does mean that they should use him properly throughout the season.
ReplyDeleteso show me why sam sticks up for him and why he considers him "one of the good guys" and yet is seemingly slightly jealous of his relationship with dean. show them addressing that jealousy from sam's pov and how really castiel is fumbling around for approval just as much as sam is and build on that. show me how they react to each other with more than a 1-2 minute bit of dialogue. give me a "dean is missing/kidnapped and sam and castiel have to get him back", or "dean is sick after a bad taco gave him food poisoning and sam and castiel work together on a case", or even "sam and cas are stuck down in a morlok's lair and work together to get out".
while i don't think sam and castiel will ever have a brotherly relationship i do see the potential for sam to be able to get his big brother on when it comes to being the person in castiel's life that has "been there, done that" in terms of bad choices and cas being thankful for a person who understands that struggle. it would be great to see them bond over how similar their lives have been and for both to have a person that truly understands that slippery slope of good intentions. building on sam being the person who never gave up on cas even when he was spiraling out of control and hurting the people he cared for.
the fact that castiel took hallucifer into himself that allows for maybe sam to open up to castiel without shame or the need to trigger painful memories by going into detail because cas not only knows what he's talking about, he's seen it firsthand. for them to bond over them connecting suicide missions with a form of penance. they relate to each other in a way that has a lot of history and is unique to them. so i truly hope they explore that instead of just more of dean and castiel (no shade). basically i'd like for sam and castiel to build their own unique relationship separate of dean while still exploring the common love/respect for dean to play a role in things to build on the theme of family.
let him regain his agency. let him build relationships outside of the brothers. this doesn't have to mean multiple cas focused episodes but maybe having him work with kevin on research, meet charlie, or even choosing to not stay at the bunker but instead find a place of his own once he is stable enough. let that home reflect who he is and also function as a
use the time that a regular spot allows to actually address castiel's character flaws. address how he runs from emotions and how he doesn't understand that saying sorry isn't enough if you keep doing the same things over and over. address how he needs to learn to understand what family means, why they would want him to stay, and how he no longer can hide behind grand gestures like opening purgatory to stop an apocalypse but has to work together as team.
have him understand the pressure the humans in his life are under when faced with. don't let him fall into drug/alcohol abuse to hide from the pain that comes with being human but actually get into his sense of loss/grief/loneliness that comes from having his grace ripped from him. deal with the anger/hurt/etc that someone he trusted, who he thought was going to help him in fixing what he broke, used him to tear his family down even further. don't drop his need to do penance just because he isn't an angel anymore.
I hope Castiel dies before the final season.
ReplyDeleteI seriously doubt there will any Sam/Castiel interaction next year. Castiel has been very firmly established as Dean's friend/buddy. I don't see the universe expanding to Sam. Dean will probably spend most of the season "teaching" Cas how to be human or something silly like that.
ReplyDeleteNot unpopular w/me, Bambi.
ReplyDeleteI like Misha. I like Castiel. That said, I feel like his character is inconsistent and aimless. They don't seem to know what to do w/him. Plus, his stories are always separate and apart from Sam and Dean. That doesn't work for me so much.
Why?
ReplyDeleteDean is a heterosexual male. From what we've seen, Castiel also leans towards being heterosexual. While you may think it would make sense for Dean and Castiel to suddenly declare their love for each other and start making out, there is a LARGE portion of the fandom that would be shocked and confused. It would "come out of nowhere" for them.
For instance, my sister watches but doesn't participate in the online fandom, and she was "shocked" to learn that some fans wanted Dean and Castiel to be in a romantic relationship. She was like, "Huh?" I only recently learned of the intensity of some Destiel fans AND I actually participate in the online fandom. I honestly thought Destiel was like Wincest - left to the fantasies of some. I didn't know some fans actually thought the show was moving in that direction. I don't see any romantic anything btw Dean and Castiel. I NEVER have, and that has not changed. I would be shocked to see them suddenly making out or something. It wouldn't make any sense to me at all. And I don't think I'm as in the minority as some would like to believe.
Completely agree, Geordie!
ReplyDeleteThe show is about Sam and Dean, not Sam, Dean, and their sidekick, Castiel.
God you just summed up everything I feel so much. Glad I am not the only one who watches for that reason. The writers scare me sometimes.. because I don't think they realize when they got a good thing sometimes. Season 8 was so much better than season 7, because they gave us some more recurring characters again, and the thing is, we need people in the lives of Dean and Sam...it just can't be the 2 of them and only the 2 of them. I have a hard time taking their relationship seriously sometimes, because it has gotten so old. (I use to love it..but Cas came along and I love his chemistry with Dean...and it was so refreshing, it is one of the most amazing things I have seen on tv.)
ReplyDeleteYeah, and about human cas..I try not to think about it because it depresses me. I loved how mysterious he is. I love how he could hear Dean's prayers, just be there suddenly, can fly, and well...the fact that Dean opened himself up to a supernatural being basically. Now that Cas is human..I am afraid they might change together..like what if the bond isn't the same..:(
Great post, Isleofskye!
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping Castiel doesn't become the "Third Winchester," but that's probably what he'll become. S9 will probably focus on more angel problems. I'm sick of angels!
Because she has a right to state her opinion just like those who love Cas.
ReplyDeleteNah . . . Sam can get his own friend.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it have to be a trio? Can't they give Sam his own friend and make it a quad? Then, we can see Sam/His friend and Dean/Cas, instead of Dean/Cas w/Sam in the background saying nothing like we're likely to get. Haha!
That crossed my mind too...like how at the end of season 6 they made it look like Cas was gonna be this all powerful villain in season 7...only to have him be bad for like, one episode, and then resolve it in the next.
ReplyDeleteAt least Dean and Cas were talking in the last episode and doing stuff..that was actually better than I thought it would go. I was afraid the season would end with Dean still giving him the silent treatment.
I think it is had to put a label on....like, yes, normally Dean is heterosexual. BUT I think Cas came along and might be an exception. There is some kind of deep love on a mental and emotional level that seems way more than platonic. This is just my opinion...I have a hard time seeing them as just friends. Like I don't know what to think...and I think sometimes the way Dean looks at Cas he is thinking the same thing..like, "What are we?" What is this?" He didn't expect it either, being interested in women all his life. And this doesn't change the fact that he still is into women. Cas is just different..and Dean seemed lovesick this season all the times he thought about Cas and what they went through in purgatory, ect.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but these are just the feelings I got when watching the show, especially re-watching it again before the finale. I don't ship them..so it isn;t even like I am looking for it. I just been a fan of their bond so far. Dean seems to be changing and growing though. (He hasn't even had sex with anyone that we know of since season 7, and turned a girl down this time!)
A new friend for sam would be cool...maybe a supernatural thing as well..see how Dean likes it. XD
ReplyDeleteCas is never going to tag along for every hunt. He's only ever in half the episodes a season.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that other people like Kevin are already moving into the bunker, so I guess they have to go too.
Thank you. I don't really care what they do with Cas and I don't really think there is anything interesting about a human Cas anyways.
ReplyDeletessshhhh....
ReplyDeletelet me have my dreams of a spn that allows sam and castiel to talk for more than 1 minute even though it's probably just going to be him being "cas you're back" and then a season goes by and that's the extent of their interaction :(
I think it was
ReplyDeleteWell you know, each to their own. But I don't think that's the direction most fans want to see him take.
ReplyDeleteI'm so happy that Cas will be a regular character again! He's been my favorive character since season five.
ReplyDeleteFantastic first article V, I think you've hit most things on the head with regards to Cas - can't wait for your next piece..on Dean maybe?
ReplyDeleteWow... just because someone has never been in a homosexual relationship doesn't mean they never could be.
ReplyDeleteMy mom was engaged twice before realizing she more attracted to women then men, mainly because all her life she's just expected to be with a man (just as Dean has expected to be with a woman. That's why the bar scene in the s8 finale was significant; what with two manly/Bobby-type men falling in love). And at Jibcon Jensen did not say anything about Dean's sexuality, he just said the scene with Aaron was meant to be comedic and not meaningful.
Now I'm not saying they will make Dean and Cas' relationship romantic, but it is a "plausible possible romantic relationship" and should not be cast aside due to the fact that it's two men.
I don't think you're in the minority - I don't think most viewers will see any romantic relationship until the show writes one, and that's not likely to happen. But I do think the writing has become more muddied for the two in the last few seasons, and I don't think that people who see a romantic connection are just pulling it out of the air.
ReplyDeleteThat version of Sam and Dean went away by late season 1.
ReplyDeleteCas is never going to be the third Winchester, and I don't think he wants to be. He's an important part of their lives, not based on family ties, but on friendship and emotional bonds.
ReplyDeleteI really want to see Team Free Will hit its peak! I want to see them working together, becoming the well oiled family machine that they are! I want to see Dean and Cas' relationship become more profound and to see them become closer. They need to realize how much they really mean to eachother. I want to see Human Cas diong things and learning to be a person for himself and Dean and Sam there teaching him it all. I want to see them for once, work together, with no one controlling anyone, while they work against a common enemy, Abbadon and/or Crowley, and to see them try to help eacother to the best of their abilities!
ReplyDeleteHahaha :-)
ReplyDeleteWhy not? The show's dead anyway!
Yes, exactly that.
ReplyDeleteAs Dean said that nothing comes before Sam, that definitely and finally defined the spot left for Cass: Sidekick... at best.
This is not the Castiel show, or the Angels on Earth show, this is the Winchester show, so to the second row with the damn nerd angel, where he belongs!
"Anyway, according to Jensen Ackles, Dean is heterosexual. I doubt
ReplyDeletethat's going to change next year. I'll be even more brutally honest, I
don't see the "profound bond" btw Dean and Cas either."
My thoughts exactly on the matter. I have no idea where this Destiel stuff comes from, but I don't see any homosexual subtext in the show that supports this entire shipping thingy.
To demand that Dean should be gay, just out of the blue to satisfy a rather small but vocal minority on the net, is just ridiculous.
Great article! Personally I really want to see Cas move into the bunker with Sam and Dean. I love when the three of them are working together! Team Free Will episodes are the best episodes :) I also want to see all of Cas' development as a human (if it happens off-screen I will not be happy). Cas deserves more screen time; he's an amazing character and he has so much to deal with now, humanity, redemption, and the other angels falling just to name a few. He's the "third Winchester" so he should be treated as such. He should also get plenty of alone time with Dean... all season these two haven't had time to really talk about all they need to talk about. I'm looking forward to seeing how their relationship grows and develops now that Cas is human.
ReplyDeleteYou cannot say a character is is 100% this until the last
ReplyDeleteline of the last page of the book is written. How many times do we encounter a
twist in the last chapter of a book that completely turns everything we knew about
a character in its head? until the last scene of supernatural anything is still
possible, my god if the writers wanted they could even decide to write that
the brothers are not even blood related.
I would assume so, yes. The only character who has been called a sibling to Sam and Dean is Charlie.
ReplyDeleteLogically, the people they're closest to should be in the bunker. If Kevin had been in there, then he might not have had as many problems. Cas staying there sometimes would give him roots while he could still leave when he wants to leave. Charlie staying there also makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThey really are only close to a tiny handful of people. It's not like they're having margarita parties.
I doubt Dean would ever call Cas a sidekick. Dean spent a year risking his life for the guy.
ReplyDeleteHe is, as Bobby said, the closest friend Dean has ever had.
Dean worrying about Sam doesn't mean Dean has no other close relationships. I doubt anyone, including Cas, believes that anyone but Sam comes first. The difference is that Dean now knows he can still have other people in his life and still be a good brother.
Not on here, no.
ReplyDeleteMost articles about Cas usually involve people arguing about whether or not he should be written off and the idea that he is somehow going to run Sam and Dean off of the show. Any other topics seem to take a backseat.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see him have more scenes with Sam, and I've seen this talked about before in articles, but then I see people saying how can they ever forget about the wall, and so forth, so I don't know whether some Sam fans would not even want him to be friends with Cas.
Personally I would enjoy more scenes with the two of them, as well as more of Cas and Dean. What I'd like less of is Cas the plot device, and contrived separations.
I think they may have meant the pills he was popping.
ReplyDeleteThat version of Sam and Dean has never past and never will, as long as there are Sam, Dean and the Impala.
ReplyDeleteThat's what this show is about even if it has been watered down.
And now a character who has outlived his usefullness seasons ago, is grafted on to the Winchesters and force-fed to us just because a few fans seem to see something special in him.
He is no hero, nor a character to be admired, but an ambiguous soulless being and traitor who has never been punished for his crimes.
If anyone should have confessed his sins, it should have been him, not Sam.
Sam as far as I can remember, has never killed his friends, Castiel has.
You're right, it's a show about two brothers fighting evil, and if the writers are so enamoured of Castiel and the angel story-line, they could have done as The Vampire Diaries has, and made a spin-off, where the entire story of Castiel, Metatron,the angels and Heaven could have made gripping television for fans of that story, leaving Sam and Dean to continue with their own show.
ReplyDeleteX
They say 'two's company, three's a crowd' and in the saga of Sam and Dean that is especially true;except of course for Baby. :)
Thank you.
ReplyDeleteCastiel may or may not become the third wheel, but he is definitely going to be more present in the season, taking time from Dean and Sam.
I get the fact that the J's enjoy their extra time off, but the show revolves around their characters and it's disappointing to the viewers when they are absent from the episodes.
Putting Castiel there to fill up their absence just isn't the same.
As a human,Castiel certainly will have to hang out around the Winchesters as he is practically uselesson his own, even although we've been told he has been around since the 'fish pulled themselves out of the water'!
One would think that after all those millennia observing the Earth, he would be more knowledgeable about humans and their world.
You synthesised everything I feel in a few words.
ReplyDeleteCastiel has gotten to the boring stage now.and I really can't see what a human Castiel can contribute to the show.
For the same reason that you comment, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it is the opposite of yours.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine. We don't all have to have the same one.
ReplyDeleteBecause destiel is in fanfics. There is not never has been a 'romantic' relationship between the two. Now a bond yes but not a romance. I am fine with what anybody believes in the privacy of there own home or in fanfics but not to impose it on others or the actors. We have got the brothers back at the heart . Castiel can be part of things but not as some romantic liason for Dean .
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't agree that they should have ended the show at the end of season five because i just love watch ing the Winchesters, :) I definitely do agree that the writers should have dedicated more time and attention to making the story-lines thrilling and interesting.
ReplyDeleteSupernatural has so much material to work with that it could go on forever, but it needs a creative team of writers to do that, which at the moment it doesn't have.
There are lots of older shows that are still good even after many years on TV,
In theory yes.
ReplyDeleteBut what will the writers do? Push Sam in the back...to have Dean and Cass in the center to joke around the "baby in the trench coat" thingy. Happened before numerous times.
And that is simply nothing I want to watch for 22 or 23 episodes yet again. There are zillions of other plots far more interesting then having a human Cass on the show, and I feel those stories are withhold from us.
Why option for the boring, repetitive, when you can have something exciting, featuring the 2 main characters of Supernatural?
Two is company, three is a crowd.
Well I lost my faith in the TPTB in season 7, they still let Sera run the show and didn't do anything when Bobby had to die in an in-vain attempt to create some drama for a season where the show runner was in over her head.
ReplyDeleteSo I'd say, the TPTB can definitely do effing dumb.
Or other boards.
ReplyDeleteI actually like Castiel fine, but I can't lie and say I'm all that interested in Castiel gathering other fallen angels and being in some huge angel plot where Sam and Dean basically sit on the sidelines. I accept that next year might be entertaining, but I don't expect to be interested in Castiel and/or the other angels b/c I wasn't interested in them this year
I know your a fan but I sometimes find it amusing with your comments even though I don't necessarily agree with everything. I wonder what storyline are you not satisfied with?. I am just curious to see your point of view in the show, is it just Cas and carver the writer? or the type of monsters?.
ReplyDeleteFor me it was Sam 'not looking' that's the only complaint I got (no-one will convince me he didn't not
even 1%)
I liked your second paragraph, its actually how I'm spending the hellatus, watching season 1 and up but there will be more adventures! :)
Exactly!
ReplyDeleteThe Cas we've seen cannot interact normally w/humans. He wasn't even this bad in S4, but he doesn't seem to know how to be human so it's very likely the show will play up the whole "baby in a trench coat" and Dean teaching Cas stuff. He will also, likely, require Dean's help a lot. So, where does that leave Sam? That's why I said it would be nice if Sam got his own friend.
As Dr. Phil says, the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. From what I've seen, the writers seem resistant to giving Sam friendships even among Sam and Dean's so-called friends. When there are more than two people in the scene, Sam tends to fade or disappear. Mind you, I didn't say all the time but it has happened often. But these are things that I don't believe the writers recognize as issues or problems.
Plus, I cannot say I'm excited about an entire season based on Heaven/angel problems that really have nothing to do w/Sam and Dean. They should be the focus, IMO. They are the show.
A few fans seem interested but most, it seems, only care about Dean and Castiel. Sam is a non-factor.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the problem is Sam WON'T develop a relationship w/Castiel. The writers don't care about Sam & Cas. Even Jared has said that Castiel is more Dean's friend than Sam's. That's why it would be nice if Sam got his own friend but that ain't gonna happen either.
Eh . . . who knows? Have you read these comments? Many are hoping and expecting him to become just that: the Third Winchester. They want him in the bunker and in the backseat of the Impala. They want him in all 23 episodes. Carver "humanized" him and made him all bumbling around humans. What's the point of that if not to make him all dependent on the Winchesters?
ReplyDeleteI think it is a legitimate concern to have.
"and I really can't see what a human Castiel can contribute to the show."
ReplyDeleteNeither can I. That's why I feel Dean will be spending a great deal of time teaching Cas how to be human and teaching him to hunt or something.
The best part about him was his "angel" status. I've never wanted him off the show. I just thought his plots should be more connected to the Winchesters b/c they're the main characters. And I thought he should be utilized more wisely and with purpose.
Who knows what we're getting next season though?
Fans want a lot of things. That usually doesn't happen. Since Jared and Jensen will probably want more time off, I could see Misha being in one or two more episodes than he was in seasons 5 and 6, and I could see him being in the non-J2 episode this season (since "Bitten" this past season was mostly just new characters and a few scenes with Sam and Dean), but I don't think he's going to be in a major role.
ReplyDeleteMaking Cas human is, ideally, to show him trying to find purpose and strength. His powers have been a crutch. What will he do without them? Who will he be? How will he adapt? Will he try to get his powers back?
It also gives the show an easy out for when he's offcamera - he's gone to find other angels, or he's gone to try to find ways to get his grace back.
The writing for Cas has always been inconsistent (I'd say the writing for Sam has been about the same). When Sera wrote the show, Cas had no idea what an erection was, probably one of the most cringeworthy things ever for the character. The main problem is when Cas' lack of knowledge about humanity is used as comic relief.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't always happen. The Great Escapist is a good example of what Cas could be in terms of dealing with humanity and not being comic relief.
The sky's the limit. They will have to actually write for him instead of just using his powers.
ReplyDeleteIn all the years of Supernatural I think Sam was on his own for part of Scarecrow and Free to Be You and Me and The End. Generally he and Dean will be together. I doubt anything will change that.
ReplyDeleteThe seasons where Misha was a regular did have more Sam and Cas interaction. Season 5 was the one where they were as close as Sam and Dean. The only time they aren't close is when Misha only appears in a handful of episodes a season.
The core of the show will always be Sam and Dean. The problem is anytime this is ever even hinted at as not being the best idea for an entire season, every character is slaughtered, and you're back to zero. If this was season 1 then I might not mind as much, but instead it's depressed Dean, and Sam coughing up a lung. The only way they really shine for me is when they have people in their lives.
Prank wars, enjoying saving people - that's mostly season 1. It hasn't really been two fun brothers against the world in a long time, long before Cas appeared.
ReplyDeleteAs for never killing his friends, I'm not sure if Martin would agree with you on that. None of these characters are saints. They'd be the first to tell us that if they could.
Cas has spent years talking about his sins and how he should make up for them - he gave away his sanity to make up for what he did to Sam. Cas has been punished over and over again. He's repeatedly died for his sins, and in some cases, died for no sins at all. He died twice to save the world, to save Sam, Sam and Dean. He never asked to come back. He said himself that he's brought back as a curse.
I don't think an actor is put on-contract because of a few fans. If that was all it took, then Kate the werewolf or Inias the cute angel from season 7 would be on contract. There's always been this idea from some fans that Cas has no place on the show, Cas is a drag, Cas has no place on the show, and the idea is that if this is said often enough, it must be true. But a majority of fans have liked Cas and supported him. Otherwise he wouldn't be a heavy focus of promos. He never would have come back. He wouldn't be a regular next season. He wouldn't have been a regular in the first place.
Cas has never been in 22 or 23 episodes per season. He was barely in half the episodes of season 5 or 6, and he had limited scenes in a number of those. If you're watching for Dean and Sam then a supermajority of the focus will likely still go to them. In season 5, Cas had almost as much of a relationship with Sam as he did with Dean. In season 6 he was close to neither of them.
ReplyDeleteI only remember a few moments which really played up Dean trying to deal with Cas not knowing the basics about humanity. It's never been a huge focus. I doubt it will be next season. If it is I don't think we will be seeing as much comedy, because it's no longer the wacky angel who will never be human. Cas is human now. It's not a joke to him. He will have to learn things, and cope with who he now is.
Ideally, that should provide good material for everyone involved, with plenty of time left for Sam and Dean to be on their own. I don't think it will end in 40 Dean teaching Cas how to use a can opener as Sam is offcamera getting groceries.
The angels are a big reason why Sam and Dean are what they are now. The angel tablet should be a huge story for Dean, although I don't know if the show will ever write it.
ReplyDeleteThis season's finale opened up so many possibilities I don't even know where to start speculating. The human!Cas storyline has an enormous potential, both for his own character development and his relationship with the boys, and I've honestly never been this excited about a new spn season.
ReplyDeleteDepends on the board. A number of the boards and sites I read are fine with Cas. It's just that some of the fans who don't like him tend to want to give the impression that no one likes him, as if this is fact.
ReplyDeleteCROWLEY CAN BE HIS NEW FRIEND
ReplyDeleteWhy can't Sam and Dean have family other than each other?
ReplyDeleteum did you miss my long spiral into sam and castiel build their relationship madness or...?
ReplyDeleteENOUGH! we are not watching SAMMYnatural, not everything is about Sam, jesus fucking christ people!
ReplyDeleteI am so excited for season 9! I want to see more of Castiel, he is my most favourite character! And I want him to join team free will again and stay with them. Now, about destiel, I would absolutely love to see it going canon! :)
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between stating an opinion and hating
ReplyDeleteoook.... but it makes no sense to have one of the last long standing reoccurring characters with ties into the mytharc, emotional, and character arcs of supernatural not interact with sam on more than a shallow basis. it is ridiculous that two characters with that much history between them barely even talk to each other.
ReplyDeletebuilding and strengthening sam and castiel's relationship doesn't require much more than allowing them to actually talk to each other about more than passing things like how cas is feeling after getting his gut ripped open.
I totally agree!
ReplyDeleteThis is an article about C A S T I E L
ReplyDeletewhy do you guys even care, you hate Castiel. This is getting ridiculous! Anything to keep him away from dean, right? Samfen need to grow up to be honest
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel like you guys just don't care about anyone but Sam. This whole "*whines* why is Castiel closer to dean than saaaaaam, why isn't eveything about sam" thing is pissing me off. Dean NEVER gets the mytharc. At least he's given the emotional arc, but this season the writers tried to give Sam the emotional arc with Amelia and Samfen ripped Amelia apart. I think that they dont care about Sam having friends/people in his life. They care about Cas NOT to be close to Dean. Castiel and Sam have never been as close as Dean and Cas and that's not a bad thing. They care about each other, Cas saved Sam but just because Cas is closer to Dean than Sam, it doesnt mean that it makes no sense! In Castiel's words "Dean and him do share a more profound bond".
ReplyDeleteMe too, I'm excited :)
ReplyDeleteplease don't whitewash sam in order to make him look better by comparison because his faults are what make him such a rich and layered character. cause you good and well that sam has done some seriously messed up things. i'm not going to list them cause it's not about a tit for tat between the two. the point is ALL the characters have done some really messed up things and yet that doesn't make them bad characters.
ReplyDeleteand to say that castiel has never been punished for his crimes is to ignore the fact that he was cast out from heaven for rebelling in s5 all the way down to him enforcing his OWN punishment by staying in purgatory to do penance... then continuing said penance once he was brought back to earth. the only reason he stopped was because naomi made him and then she was pretty much torturing him from then out. really it seem like most of his punishments are self inflicted and done because he truly wants to redeem himself and do penance.
but castiel is not dean's possession and should be close to sam in way that highlights their history together. the fact that they barely talk to each other on screen is ridiculous. i think castiel talked to samandiriel more than he did to sam one on one this season.
ReplyDeletesaying sam and castiel should have their relationship explored on screen has nothing to do with mytharcs or whatever but with pointing out that it makes no sense for them not to. sam and castiel should be shown as being close because the dialogue says they are, but there are no scenes to show how they got from point a to b.
the relationships are DIFFERENT and one is explored more than the other. that is the problem.
it's like some seem to take the idea that people want sam and castiel to have more screen time as a threat to dean and castiel's relationship but it's not. sam and castiel will never be dean and castiel because they have a different relationship built on a history between them that is separate from dean. there are stories to be told between them that have nothing to do with dean...
and you know what, telling those stories has no affect on dean and castiel's bond any more than telling the stories between dean and cas affect the brother's relationship or vice versa.
dean and castiel sharing a "profound bond" and thus are closer than sam and cas is a shallow way of looking at things. because that would mean that dean and cas aren't close because dean puts sam before everything and castiel KNOWS that and functions as if sam should be next to dean at all times (see his "where's sam?" every time sam is m.i.a.).
but that isn't exactly true now is it. because things are more complicated than catch phrases like "profound bond" can encompass.
"Cas voicing that he doesn't trust Dean is a questionable choice, though. A paragon of humanity like Dean Winchester, flawed and so very human, is something that should make the choice for Cas easier, rather than a random angel he meets on street. I'm still confused about that particular scene."
ReplyDeleteMe too at first, but a fellow fan (I believe number0six) pointed out that Dean didn't have Castiel's back in season six when Cas finally asked for his trust and support. So maybe it's not unreasonable that Cas could be gun shy and assume Dean would once again try to stop him, while another angel on the run would have the same goals.
I'm glad that this time Dean didn't try to stand in Cas' way. Dean for the most part trusted and let Cas do what he thought was right, although obviously this time didn't work out so well! (I consider season six a win, anyway, minus Cas not returning the souls in a timely manner.)
Also I agree with you that angels aren't enemies to humans and shouldn't be treated like that. They're not like demons and the typical monster of the week, preying on mankind, that's for sure. I'm glad they didn't get locked up in heaven... but falling! I'm not sure what to think about it, what it all will mean, but in general it makes me uneasy and feel bad haha. I do like your viewpoint on them and their family dynamics, that really is a fab part of the show.
I hope that you are right, that we'll get a lot of Castiel's point of view. That's such a treat, really, and it is a pretty epic (but reasonable on a filming level) story seed he's been given. Being able to actually see his story, see more of Castiel... well he could be on his way to turning into a demon and I'd probably still be thrilled just to see more of what's happening and not only hear and guess about it.
So I am doing my level best not to complain, even though I honestly never wanted to see Cas fall and be stuck riding in the backseat on a permanent basis and a part of me really hopes all the angels get their grace back in the first episode (even though that'd be throwing away some great opportunities, I'm sure).
I am striving toward the Stages of Bargaining and Acceptance, obviously. :)
As long as I see my favorite, I suppose almost anything is fine and I'll trust it'll be as awesome as Cas' past storylines and development.
In the meantime, I'm trying not to pin my hopes on anything in particular.
...i hope your not referring to me since i don't hate castiel at all. wanting there to be equal exploration of the relationships castiel holds doesn't make one a "samfan trying to get him away from dean"
ReplyDeletebecause, believe it or not, some people are fans of castiel the character. and don't think of him as some dean appendage that only has importance when he is at dean's side. and that means we would like to see what the other relationships in his life look like. if bobby were still alive i'd want them to explore that as well. i want them to show relationships like what kevin and him look like. do they hate each other? is castiel confused by larping or oddly intense about being as accurate as possible thus bring a real iron mace to the next fest.
maybe he stays at the bunker for a bit but leaves and gets his own home on a bit of land because he thinks it's outrageous how much organic food costs so he grows his own and calls in the brothers when the monster in the woods keeps stealing his cabbages. idk.
surprising i know. that people might not automatically assume that more castiel stories mean more dean and cas stories...
She didn't say anything about wanting Sammynatural. She simply said she wanted to see Castiel develop a relationship with Sam. Would that be so horrible? Cas once called Sam his friend. Would it be so awful and terrible to see the writers either develop that friendship or acknowledge it? Can Sam just not be Castiel's friend b/c he's Dean's friend?
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you define 'major role', but by all reasonable definitions Castiel has had a major role since season four. He's had arguably more storylines than Dean and was the protagonist (the driving force of the plot) for season six.
ReplyDeleteI think you mean 'screen time' and not 'major role'. Like, the impala has some screen time every episode, but not a major role.
I hope he's in all 23 episodes. Sure, why not, great idea, most definitely, absolutely would be thrilled by that, even if I'd prefer he be an angel and not stuck with the Winchesters. The angels are the best and most unique part of this show, in my humble opinion, and I'm cringing at their loss. But I'm trying to stop pre judging.
I hope he's not stuck in the bunker. That's horrible. At least when he was off camera as an angel, we had the sense or could fanwank he was off doing something epic. Twiddling his toes at the bunker or acting as a Bobby substitute for when they need an answer to a monster problem are my greatest fears for the upcoming season.
ReplyDeleteUh......where did I say I hated Cas? Point out that post to me. You won't be able to do that b/c I never said that. I don't hate Castiel. You should take your own advice.
ReplyDeleteI was simply acknowledging the unlikelihood that there will be any Sam/Cas bonding or friendship scenes because we haven't gotten any in the 4 yrs Cas has been on the show despite Cas supposedly seeing Sam as a friend. When did that happen? My complaint has nothing to do with Castiel specifically and more to do with the writers neglecting Sam's emotional development. They say Sam and Bobby have a father/son relationship, but there are very few, if any, scenes supporting that statement. Cas calls Sam his friend, but when did that relationship develop? It's lazy writing. Too much tell and not enough show for my taste.
In ant event, since you made it quite clear that Sam should never dare to speak with or associate with Castiel who - according to you - is Dean's friend and possession, you should like my comments.
Rest assured. I'm sure your precious Cas will only share scenes with Dean. Don' t fret. Sam and Cas won't be developinga relationship anytime soon.
I don't think anyone here has given the impression that he's universally disliked. We're all just speaking for ourselves.
ReplyDeleteToo bad for the Sam haters that the show is about the Winchesters, period. And Sam is one half of Team Winchester, that is a fact.
ReplyDeleteAnd we are also so not watching CASSnatural, Cass has become redundant to the show after "Swan Song". ;)
It should be, but with Cas being human, I believe that Heaven/ angel arc will go to Cas. Dean and Sam will likely just help Cas in whatever he does.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I could be wrong. I guess we'll see soon enough.
Like with everything else in the fandom, opinion is split. Some Sam fans like Cas, others do not.
ReplyDeleteFor me personally, I think there was great potential to explore the Sam/Cas relationship with all of the past storylines of both Sam and Cas falling, Sam being in the cage with a fallen angel, and I could go on. At this point though, I'm feeling like the opportunity's past.
I guess i'm of the mind that at the end of the day, this show should pretty evenly split the focus between Sam and Dean. There are of course other supporting characters on any show. Some are there to specifically to support either Sam or Dean's story.
Your memory of S5 is different than mine. I can recall any specific Sam and Cas interaction.
ReplyDeleteYes the angel tablet should be Deans story.
ReplyDeleteAnd what will Dean get to in season 9 instead? Playing the babysitter to redundant Cass ?....BORING.....
I was exaggerating of course with 22 to 23 episodes of CASSnatural, but let me tell you, half a season with Castiel did felt like two seasons of boredom.
ReplyDeleteEither the writers come up with actual interesting plots for Cass that doesn't deduct from the Winchester storyline, or they simply stop force-feeding him to the viewers.
I would not mind a genuine attempt to see a upgrade in scenes between Sam and Cas . Esp as others have pointed out that he is a regular next season however I do see him as a Dean character and that relationship will always take priority which in a sense is fair enough not in the 'romantic' way some want but there is a bond there. My belief is Sam needs a character designed for him as I have never felt Cas has done very much for Sam as he is more closely associated with Dean.
ReplyDeleteGiving Castiel some attention won't mean that the show will forget about Sam or Dean. This argument iscompletely pointless. Please guys, just stop.
ReplyDeleteWho are you exactly to think you can stop discussions you don't like???
ReplyDeleteWe see about that in season 9, if the writers do remember there is a Sam Winchester on the show and what Dean said about his brother in "Scarifice" while they are busy writing more boring angel crap.
Absolutely :)
ReplyDeleteThe were actually plans for a Cass spin-off, but according to Mark Pedowitz he thought Cass alone would not generate enough viewers.
ReplyDeleteDo I need to say more on this? :)
We won't know until next year though. I guess I don't understand why you think there's no possibility that Cas would be in 21 or 23 episodes or 19 or 23. Why do you think that's not going to occur? Adding Misha as a regular gives the writers/showrunner the perfect way to fulfill J2's request of less screen time.
ReplyDeleteLike I said, we won't know until next year. I see no reason why Cas COULDN'T be involved in every or almost all the episodes, esp. since the writers seem to have lost interest in Sam and Dean.
One person's "hate" is another's "opinion," so now what?
ReplyDeleteThat's why people should restrict their comments to the substance of the posts rather than the posters.
They had some good scenes in that episode about the Whore of Babylon, the ones where Cas was drunk. Cas also saved Sam's life in the episode with Pestilence.
ReplyDeleteOnce Dean convinced Cas that Sam was worth fighting for, Cas seemed to feel the same way.
I see your point, but I feel like the offcamera stuff never led anywhere in the long run, and some of it, like the offcamera search for God. ended up depressing me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe he could find other fallen angels offcamera.
I doubt that will be Dean's main story, although if it was I'd enjoy it more than most of what he had in seasons 6 and 7.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to see him have even more scenes with Dean and some nice scenes with Sam too, so that would be OK with me. I think he's a key part of their lives and I'd like to see him just continue to strengthen them, as he's always done for me when the writing hasn't tried to destroy those relationships.
ReplyDeletelol yeah they did. though i think that if they did want to try for a spin off they've got enough time to do so if shows like the tomorrow people take off well enough.
ReplyDeletea show about fallen angels with characters like kevin and maybe a samandiriel type trying to fix the damage from the fall on earth. with one off characters like new hunters like charlie or krissy or angels that possibly chose to stay on earth and hunt with limited powers.
if there was ever a time to pull the trigger on setting up a spin off during season 9 is the time. because they've got a great lead out from the brothers with castiel wishing to do penance as a tie over theme from spn to spin off.
but i doubt they will do it
Yeah, there are still good characters for a spinoff, for sure. Don't think it will happen, but the potential is there. Then again considering all the ugly drama around The Originals, perhaps that is for the best.
ReplyDeletecould this simply be a writer who has intelligently got us back on track to the lucifer storyline, we assumed they left in episode entitled the end in which cas was human are we to see a parting of ways from sam and dean and the return of the apocalypse storlyline and the eventual end of sam in and dean in a blaze of hell fire.... season 8 was a true return to form and dont be surprised if the writing next season is dark and geared towards a very big ending...that said whatever happens thank you mister carver you have truly brought something great back from the dead
ReplyDeleteWow, loved your article. I hope our lovely writers will read it too :) I'm trying to be positive about Castiel's part in S9 and maybe, just maybe, I won't be disappointed. I would love to see his problems with actually being human fleshed out – here's to hoping the show will allow for that. His dynamic with the boys should also be interesting; will he and Sam bond further? I obviously want to see Cas and Dean actually being honest with each other for once, without being able to disappear or storm out. Fingers crossed!
ReplyDeleteWe'll never really know how many fans he, Sam, or Dean really have.
ReplyDeleteI'm of the belief that the non-online viewers far outnumber the online viewers and pretty much like everything and everyone.
I think Castiel is a shiny new toy for them, but I could be wrong. Who knows? We'll find out next year. I'm not super excited for next season but I'm always happy for them to surprise me!
ReplyDeleteYeah. . . S5 is not a fave so I don't remember the WOB episode at all. Uh . . . didn't Cas save both Sam AND Dean from Pestilence?
ReplyDeleteI'll put it like this - I don't recall any special scenes between them. Nothing that sticks out in my memory as a defining moment for them and their relationship/friendship.
I can only hope that Carver will not mess up Castiel in season 9 as much as he did Sam this season. Season 4 is my favorite season, mostly because of Cas and the Angel/Demon arc and the chemistry between Cas and Dean. Looking forward to fall.
ReplyDeleteI am so tired of these fan-written articles -- what ever happened to real journalism and real criticism? If I wanted to read stuff like this, I'd go to tumblr. Painful.
ReplyDeleteSorry but that is just semantics, and still Pedowitz said "no SPN spin off with Castiel".
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
ReplyDeleteIn the 8 years watching Supernatural and reading lots of reactions on the show on the net, I met more non-online viewers in person, then posters on the net.
Mostly those people watch the show for the brotherly bond, think Sam and Dean are the main characters and avoid anything like the "fandom" on purpose, because lets face it: What will remain of the online fandom isn't the nice stuff, but the hate and all the shipper crap, to put it mildly.
Did you miss the part where I said 95% of the comments?
ReplyDeleteNot everything is about Castiel or Dean, either. I don't see "ENOUGH! We're not watching CASNATURAL" when four hundred people comment about the lack of Castiel or cheer Castiel's storyline or whatever. Ditto for Dean.
ReplyDeleteAllowing a showrunner who doesn't know how to showrun another season to be poor at the job and killing off a hugely popular character are two different things, tho.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't remember anything that was of the bonding level. No portion of an episode where Castiel ever came to ask for Sam's help. Or pretty much speak to Sam unless Sam spoke to him. I've noticed Castiel always focuses on Dean in the scenes where the three of them together, but that's because he's almost always addressing him. I'd hope they might have the opportunity to build a relationship between the two, because Castiel is, for all intents and purposes, tabula rasa. So ... who knows?
ReplyDeleteI really need to start putting smiley faces on my jokes around here.
ReplyDeleteThe saddest thing on this series, for me, - and I really can't fault the character for this, but the writers - was when Bobby out and out said he liked Dean more than Sam. I may not recall his words exactly, but I'm damn well sure he said "LIKED" not "don't feel as close to".
ReplyDeleteIs the tablet even a thing now? I thought the tablet was the spell? Or was what Metatron was doing the spell? I didn't rewatch the finale, so I'm still not clear on that point. Because, I could be wrong, I assumed as much because the demon tablet was a spell to close the Gates, too. They told Sam when they stopped him, it wasn't Trials, but a spell. Like I said, I very well could be wrong.
ReplyDeleteJust trade off playing support for Sam to Castiel? Yeah, that doesn't interest me either. They need to put Dean and Sam on equal footing again. I don't know exactly when the show lost that. I want to say season four, but I'm sure most everyone else would disagree. I'm definitely in the minority here when I say I really did not care for most of S4 and S5.
ReplyDeleteOr even post-series. Remember the hooplah when JK Rowling made the announcement Dumbledore was gay? I was like, "Yeah, so? Who cares?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it's just the Internet or what. Because I know about ten fans in real life and none of them have liked Castiel. Or pretty much the angel/Heaven/God shift in season four. Half of them gave up early in season five. The two I still talk to still watching wonder what happened to the show.
ReplyDeleteMe, I'm trying to care about Castiel's crap because he's never going away. I can't say I like him, but I wouldn't say I hate him. I'm sure others here would disagree, but my language is harsh pretty much all the time. People always think I hate/dislike something more than I actually DO. Basically, I'm gritting my teeth and nodding, hoping they integrate the character fairly into BOTH of the lead characters' lives. Apparently, my hoping for that makes me all about Sam.
Wanna know the most hilarious thing about all of this? I hated Sam for the first two and half seasons of the show. Didn't actually start to like him till late season four.
This. Just posted something similar above in this thread.
ReplyDeleteI'll add a "me, too" to this as well. If there'd been any inkling of possible bisexuality - like with Willow in Buffy - then I'd be more inclined to think, "hey, maybe he'll pull a Willow". But I've never seen that with Dean, though. I'm a slashy viewing bisexual woman, so my mind is very open to possibilities. If they make sense of the character and there's been established basis for it.
ReplyDeleteOh, I'd love Jody and Sam to get more time. I was actually shipping that after the Eliot Ness time travel episode a while back.
ReplyDeleteHave they ever talked for 1 minute? I time things sometimes on the show and now I am curious. I seriously don't think Sam and Castiel have ever had a scene without Dean for more than a minute, where they actually talked... even about the weather... Oh, there was that scene that was mentioned in this article / blog from Hunter Heroici where Sam was talking to the guest star and Castiel was there with him... But, Sam and Castiel did not exchange a single word with each other. There was also the scene right after Sam got the wall put up in his head and Sam and Castiel "almost" hugged. Sam tricked Castiel into telling him about Sam's soul-less time. But, I didn't think that was a minute... It might be close. But, that scene was mostly "off screen".
ReplyDeleteI know Sam has threatened Castiel a couple of times. Once at the end of On the Head of a Pin... Miracle! Now! (loved it), but I don't think that was a minute. Sam also threatened Castiel when he was soul-less. That scene where he mentioned the arc of the covenant... But that was really short too.
That is all I want. a couple of short scenes to show they really are friends. Maybe Sam and Castiel can be forced to work together to save Dean. That would be a good way for them to interact.
But currently, Sam defends Castiel to Dean occasionally, but without any direct interaction between the characters, I just don't buy it. Like the relationship with Bobby I always feel the relationship is pure lip service. A couple of tiny scenes where the characters are both talking Dean do not represent demonstrate any kind of relationship.
I believe he said that Dean was his "favorite". Then, he followed that up with, "But Sam's a better hunter... at least now he is".
ReplyDeleteStill, though, that's rough stuff. He's the closest they had to a real parent and he admits Dean's his favorite. I don't recall if Sam heard it or not, though. I don't remember a lot about season six.
ReplyDeleteI don't see that happening because Crowley just killed Sarah and several others that they had saved just to hurt the Winchesters. He may forgive him, but I don't see any kind of "bond" happening any times soon. But I would like Crowley to stay. I wonder if he is going to get over being nearly cured or if he is going to remain in that nearly cured state?
ReplyDeleteCastiel turned into a vengeful god and killed a bunch of people. Dean was friends with him again after a while. I'm not saying it's going to be the season premiere and Crowley and Sam are sitting in a cafe, drinking lattes. Crowley went through a lot of stuff. Maybe he'll be more human, maybe he won't. But if he is and they let him get some forgiveness, I don't see why they can't be friends. Or at least get some moments of really talking together. Like I said, Crowley told Sam stuff he obviously surprised himself by saying - Sam's seen him at his most ... human.
ReplyDeleteYou said "we know Cas really cares about Sam too"... but I think a big problem is that we are "told" that Cas really cares about Sam... but we have never been shown.
ReplyDeleteLike you, I would love it if the writers would start to show us that they are friends as well. I am not looking for something like the Dean / Cas bond at all. Just that they are comfortable with each other and can talk...
I heard a Dean fan complain vociferously once that nobody cares about Dean because every time there is a conversation about one of the characters, it is always people talking about Sam. She said "everything is always about Sam. Why can't Bobby care about Dean as much as Sam?"
When I asked her what in the world was she talking about, she said that every time Bobby and Dean had a heart to heart, it was about Sam... Sam and Bobby never talked about Dean. Then, I told her that was because Sam never talks to Bobby alone at all! Sam is not allowed to talk about his feelings to anybody but Dean. How can Bobby and Sam talk about Dean when Sam can't talk to Bobby alone?
I think next season there should be something wrong with Dean. Then, Dean has to be off screen sick, hurt, or missing... Then, Castiel and Sam will work together to find a solution. They can have lots of heart to heart chats all about Dean. That way both sides can be happy. All Cas will care about is Dean and all Sam will care about is Dean, but Castiel and Sam can finally have a conversation. Problem solved!
ITA. If Cas is the only regular character, he needs to have some kind of a relationship with Castiel. I can't stand when a character becomes mute the moment someone else walks in the room. In an episode now and again... fine. But, as a general practice... across more than a dozen episodes. No.
ReplyDeleteI agree. It's not just here. Even places like TV Guide are resorting to fan articles. A few "journalists" that report on SPN are really fans that were given jobs by sites. It sort of shows what is happening to reporting & journalism, as print media dies out - it's taken over by less fact driven, non-professionals.
ReplyDeleteyes. yes i did. keep it cute now cause my comment was making fun of myself and how i went on a long tangent about sam and castiel talking. thus the whole "long spiral into madness" bit.
ReplyDeleteuh, i think it was 7.21 or what ever ep it was when castiel woke up from his whatever that was when they sorta talked about things pertaining to walls and vague references to pain. that has to at least crack the 1 minute 30 mark.
ReplyDeleteThe things that I want the most on this show will probably come true: the angel arc will be explored again and Castiel is human now, I'm so happy! Season 9 will be so good.
ReplyDeletewell he says in 5.02 that he is cut off from heaven and much of heaven's power then later in 5.16 says that he can't return to heaven. so if he is cut off from heaven and can't return i'd say that's him being cast out.
ReplyDeletetho i'm all up for another phrase if there is one you feel fits better. my written english is suck city so i could've used it wrong :/
SEASON 9 WISHLIST:
ReplyDeleteMore friends for Sam
Dean being more than a babysitter
Cas being a badass hunter
Kevin Tran surviving the whole season
Abbadon with the same vessel
Crowley being a good guy
Metatron's head on a silver plate
Sam, Dean and Cas doing stuff together
agreed! :)
ReplyDeleteOh, I remember that! I remember thinking, "Well, dang, I think we all knew that but I never thought they would come right out and say it."
ReplyDeleteI felt like that was pouring salt in a wound. I had already been complaining that Sam's relationship w/Bobby was practically non-existent, and then the show goes and has Bobby say he likes Dean best. You know . . . I don't even have a problem w/Bobby liking Sam more than Dean. My problem is w/the lack of relationship btw Sam and Bobby. Why must Sam think of Bobby as a father b/c Dean does? If that's true for Sam, would it have killed them to actually show Sam and Bobby bonding in a significant way or having a discussion that didn't involve Dean or a case?
I just feel no effort was put into the Sam/Bobby relationship so that remark from Bobby was particularly grating and unnecessary.
Sam didn't hear it. He was soulless at the time anyway so even if he had heard, I doubt he would have cared. Bobby said that during that "truth" episode.
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah, I do remember that abomination line. Haha. I'm pretty sure Castiel was speaking to Dean at the time. Sam was in the room though and looked a little saddened by that comment.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed the same thing too. When Sam, Dean, and Cas are in scenes together, Dean and Cas are usually the ones speaking to each other, and Sam is in the background. He may contribute to the conversation briefly but nothing too substantive.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm not saying that happens every single time, but pretty often.
I'm glad that Misha is a regular again. He was one of the most wasted talents on the show. He certainly deserves it.
ReplyDelete