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Supernatural - Episode 8.21 - The Great Escapist - Sneak Peek

25 Apr 2013

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200 comments:

  1. C P25 April 2013 at 06:13

    Changing how? That is the question.

    ReplyDelete
  2. João Paulo25 April 2013 at 06:19

    Exactly. I think the trials give Sam a kind of angel power to close the gates.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Caz7425 April 2013 at 06:22

    As much as I love big brother looking after little brother, sometimes can't it be the other way round! Still can't wait for this episode.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Elena Wonderland25 April 2013 at 06:42

    Well...angels don't need to eat.Something is happening to Sam and it's burning him from the inside out.I believe it's either the demon blood being "purified" or him turning to an angel...

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  5. Emily25 April 2013 at 06:46

    I actually like the idea of Sam's demon blood becoming completely human. It would be a nice way to close that chapter for Sam and a good reward for going through these trials.

    ReplyDelete
  6. SuePo25 April 2013 at 06:47

    But since you dont want to let your brother help you, its a little hard to feel sorry for you, Sam. I'm sorry but this whole thing is just making me cringe. Can't they learn from their mistakes just once? Together means together. Try it. It might work.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Ashley B25 April 2013 at 06:58

    As much as I enjoy watching Dean's caretaker instincts come out to play, I have to sympathize with Sam here. No one wants to be babied in their 30s, lol.

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  8. hlnkid25 April 2013 at 12:29

    DAMN!! Great scene! Great make up job too on Sam. He looks like complete crap! :) Can't wait for next week!!!

    ReplyDelete
  9. klutzy_girl25 April 2013 at 13:16

    LOL, what is that plinky music at the end? So dramatic.


    But oh God, I love every single thing about this scene! That was awesome.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Michele Klinger25 April 2013 at 13:27

    IM SCARED AND I WANNA KNOW WHAT ALL THIS MEANS

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  11. sdwhiskey25 April 2013 at 14:19

    I don't see Dean "babying" Sam. He's trying to keep Sam healthy and well. Dean said it has been 3 days since Sam has eaten anything! So, at this point, Dean probably feels he has to be more aggressive with his caretaking to help Sam. How can Sam possibly expect Dean not to be concerned about him and try to take care of him?

    ReplyDelete
  12. sdwhiskey25 April 2013 at 14:30

    As much as I appreciate Dean trying to take care of Sam (and of course Dean is getting a lot of criticism in some parts of fandom for trying to care for Sam...), why is it that it seems that being a "caretaker" is Dean's only role on this show? It is a part of who Dean is, but it shouldn't be the ONLY role Dean has on the show, IMO.



    Sam is the important one who has to complete the trials to close the gates of Hell, despite being horribly sick. Kevin is the prophet who has to interpret the tablets and is currently missing. Cas has the Angel tablet and on the run from Naomi.



    Everyone else is integral on a greater level and has an important role within the supernatural plotline -- EXCEPT DEAN. He's just left to react to everyone else's storyline.


    And now Sam is starting to turn into something else, possibly an angel? It's just unbelievable to me how unequal the storylines for the brothers are right now.

    ReplyDelete
  13. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 14:30

    More cooking!mother-hen!master-Samwise!Dean and ungrateful!I'm-chaaaannnggginng!half-limp!Sam. I'm going to need a crap ton of alcohol to get through this episode.

    ReplyDelete
  14. SuePo25 April 2013 at 14:59

    I agree. Dean has been relegated to wet nurse and cook. I can't think of any way he is actually tied to the plotline other than those two roles. It's kind of pathetic and why I have no interest in what happens the rest of he season. Even when it was Dean's life on the line (in season 4) Sam had his own subplot with Ruby and the demon blood that had nothing to do with Dean's. Where is Dean's story? His character arc? I see none and it's made me lose interest and excitement for my favorite show. It's also made me resent the PoorSam storyline because let's face it, we've had PoorSam way too many times. Didn't we just get through that with the hallucinations? The guy is 6'5" and 225 lbs. Is he really that much of a victim? When are these guys going to get to be the heroes I used to know? I miss them. I can hope that season 9 fixes the incredible imbalance we're seeing now, but it's only hope. Nothing is making me believe we will.

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  15. SuePo25 April 2013 at 15:00

    I'm mixing Sangiras. :) I'll send some your way.

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  16. Topaz25 April 2013 at 15:07

    Dean has had close relationships with a whole host of characters in the show's run - far more than Sam. I don't feel like as a character he's being neglected - in fact I'm really, really enjoying Jensen Ackles' performance this year. The point of him needing to look after Sam all the time is that he is actually far more emotionally vulnerable and far less self sufficient than Sam is, but is projecting that onto Sam because he's always felt he was supposed to be the strong one. I think that makes him a really fascinating character and the writers do a great job of getting under his skin. He was lovely in the most recent episode (and please God, can we see him in a GI uniform again?) In fact I feel like both of them have really raised their game in the second half of the season.

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  17. sdwhiskey25 April 2013 at 16:00

    But Dean looking after Sam isn't an equal role on the show. It's just a supporting role. And it's a role that puts Dean in a no-win situation because if Dean doesn't seem to be concerned or care ENOUGH about Sam's well-being then he's criticized for it. And yet if he does try to take care of Sam, he's criticized for it [just like some here are doing].

    Sam is an adult and he doesn't want Dean or anyone taking care of him. I get that. Yet the writers apparently can't think of anything else to do with Dean, so they put him in the role of caretaker (yet again!) for his brother because Sam is the one who is the most important to the mytharc storyline.



    So sure, Dean gets to bond with some side characters. But he is not at all important in the greater scheme of things, for HIMSELF. Sam, Cas, and Kevin have their own storylines and mytharc roles. But Dean is only important for who he is to Sam and what he does for Sam.

    And as is being shown in this clip, Dean is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

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  18. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 16:04

    I better buy an extra bottle if that's the case. I fully expect Dean to be toting an extra duffel just for travel packages of Arrowroot biscuits, ziplock bags full of Cheerios, and a soft cloth for when Sam needs burping while they're tracking down Metatron. "Great job killing that demon, Sammy!" *shakes snack box of raisins* "Time for num-nums!"

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  19. sharonally25 April 2013 at 16:06

    No your right after all Dean has two other brothers to be with . What can you say nobody forces him to do it and I wouldnt worry Sam not looking for Dean will be brought back up again so that big stick to beat Sam up with wont go very far.

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  20. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 16:06

    And really big drinking glasses...

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  21. Topaz25 April 2013 at 16:16

    I really don't agree. Jensen Ackles has great presence in every scene he's in, and regardless of who has the most mythology-centred storyline, emotionally and characterisation-wise Sam and Dean are equals. In fact I'd say over the series the writing has spent much longer exploring Dean's internal life than Sam's precisely BECAUSE the things that happen to him don't necessarily drive the main story. He's the show's emotional core. He anchors the whole thing.

    If anything, you could argue that Sam gets the mythology-heavy storylines because they have less to say about him as a character and that's the only way they have to keep him relevant. Could you really look at the most recent episode and say that Dean wasn't important in it just because it was Sam who was sick?

    I don't get worked up about whether the characters are nice to each other or not, because I don't think drama is interesting if characters aren't flawed and if there's no tension. So they have to have personality-traits that sometimes makes them not like each other, sometimes makes them behave like douches or just sometimes makes them not behave in exactly the way we'd like.

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  22. Lisa25 April 2013 at 16:17

    I really like the idea of his blood being purified by the trials.

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  23. Lisa25 April 2013 at 16:21

    I couldn't agree more! Does Sam even know who Dean is? If Sam dies doing these trials, does he actually think Dean is just going to go happily on with his life?



    And btw Sam? If you aren't fit to hunt and insist on doing it anyway, who is watching Dean's back? And if he doesn't do anything to help himself, how is he supposed to do the third trial anyway? For a smart guy, Sam is pretty stupid...

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  24. Lisa25 April 2013 at 16:27

    Let's make a drinking game of it! A shot for every time Sam refused Dean's help, a shot for every time Sam "staggers dramatically" - oh wait - we'll be unconscious by the first commercial break...

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  25. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 16:31

    "Sam staggers dramatically"...? Yeah if we did that, we could use Near-Beer and still wind up blotto. And if we added "Sam clears his throat surreptitiously " to the list, we'd all be dead. :P

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  26. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 17:07

    What frustrates me is that we are constantly getting the same "theme" from SPN. It's so repetitive. Dean is always in this loop of having to do for someone who does not want to be done for. If Sam would accept the help, then it may be at least SOMEWHAT palatable to take (not much...but some). It stresses me out to always witness this constant song and dance. How many times has Dean tried to "control" a situation or to "help" Sam, only to have it beaten into him that Sam must face the villain and save the world on his own? And how many times has Dean had to learn to let go and allow his brother to fly.


    So here we are again...same old, same old. And Charlie spends an entire episode learning to let go and Dean, of course, refuses to. My god, I'm so tired of this story.


    And this constant battle with a limp!Sam wobbling around, unable to stand, denying that he needs help just makes me lose sympathy for the character. People are saying that they understand where Sam is coming from...that he's 30 years old and shouldn't be (s)mothered by Dean. Yet at the same time, a 30 year old should be mature enough to know when he's NOT WELL. Sam yelled at Dean lecturing him "You can't take care of two people, Dean!!!" Uh...why not? Lots of people do. Dean's strong, healthy, physically fit. So what makes Dean unable to help? And as far as "helping" goes, there may not be a LOT Dean can do, but Sam doesn't have to be a little bitch every time Dean tries to do little things for him. The ONLY role Dean has is an unwanted one. That is infuriating for me to watch. It just makes me cringe watching Sam bumble around incoherently, looking like absolute crap, sleeping for 36 hours at a pop and claiming..."I'm FINE". It doesn't make me care for the character...it makes me roll my eyes.



    Not going to lie. I'm a Dean-girl, but I've always held sympathy for Sam even during S4 and S5. I grit my teeth through soulless!Sam and then halluci!Sam, but now...it's just too much. And now with all these "changes" in his DNA...I'm sure they are setting up something to be terribly, terribly wrong next Season when Dean brings Sam back from the dead or whatever, and Sam will NOT want Dean to help him recover from whatever he needs to recover from this time. It's a cycle that I'm getting bored with.

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  27. Topaz25 April 2013 at 18:40

    Can I just say, arguments about who's most important on the show and who's the writers' favourite and why the brothers are so mean to each other aside, both the actors are bringing their A-game in this scene.

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  28. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 20:06

    Yes, granted, I would MUCH prefer that each brother have a quest of his own. I would MUCH prefer to see Dean be more important than being the caretaker. He's so much fun to watch when he has a storyline of his own. How can they take such a great actor and put him in that role? How is carrying a tray stretching his acting? I am just so...I dunno...just so BEWILDERED by it all. But if Dean has to be caretaker...can't he be that? It's like he can't EVEN be a caretaker because Sam fights him at every turn. LOL. I may need those drinks before next Wednesday... /glug...

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  29. JeanneM25 April 2013 at 20:14

    I may just drink from the keg...what's a little cirrhosis of the liver now and again? Amirite?

    ReplyDelete
  30. lala225 April 2013 at 20:23

    I don't think Sam is ungrateful. He appreciates what Dean wants to do for him, but believes the best way for him to fully recover is to complete the trials. That's all.

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  31. lala225 April 2013 at 20:29

    Like Topaz said, w/o the mythology, Jared may as well not be on this show. I have NO idea why this show cannot give both characters a POV and a mytharc, but they seem completely incapable of doing this.



    For whatever reason, they've slated Sam as the one things happen to, and Dean as the one who reacts to what's happening to Dean. Because I think the emotional aspects of this show are much more important than the mythology, Dean will always have the greater role, IMO. That's why you'll see me arguing for more POV for Sam. I don't want to take away Dean's POV; I just want to see Sam's as well.

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  32. lala225 April 2013 at 20:39

    I don't see Sam as upset w/Dean for offering his help. I agree w/Chris. I think Sam knows that soup isn't really going to help what's ailing him. I also had no problem w/Dean getting his brother from food. If their positions were reversed, Sam would be doing the same things.



    The scene was fine to me.

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  33. sharonally25 April 2013 at 21:15

    Exactly which is why I never worry about Dean even in this episode the Dean/Charlie relationship got the bulk of focus. Sam is a plot driven character without that he has nothing else and Dean is character driven the heart of everything that is happening .

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  34. TAG2125 April 2013 at 22:33

    Sometimes you just can't combat all the Sam Hate. Some people see what they want to see and that means always seeing Sam in a bad light.

    I agree with everything you said, and as Sam and many others have said, Sam is not sick with the flu or a cold. He is changing. Maybe the changes are causing him not to want to eat or need to eat. How about the haters wait and see what is happening to Sam before bashing him for not eating when told to?

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  35. Miss Supernatural25 April 2013 at 22:47

    I agree. Jared and Jensen are awesome!

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  36. SuePo25 April 2013 at 22:57

    I've needed a drink this whole season. :) First to forget those horribly dull Amelia flashbacks, then to salute the unnecessary demise of Benny and now to stomach the Limp!Sam story that were being force fed. It's a wonder there's any alcohol left for Dean. :)

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  37. SuePo25 April 2013 at 23:00

    Hallelujah, sister. :)

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  38. Elena Wonderland25 April 2013 at 23:36

    So I'm not the only one who reads (and writes...yes I'm guilty) sick!Sam fics :P

    ReplyDelete
  39. lala225 April 2013 at 23:50

    You're right! For some, Sam will be wrong no matter what he does!

    When I watch this clip, I don't see a person being selfish, mean, or ungrateful. I see a person who honestly believes that taking his temperature and eating won't fix whatever is happening to him. At the end, Sam is only trying to explain to Dean that the trials are changing him. It's not about Sam rejecting Dean or not wanting Dean's help or being ungrateful.
    I'm not sure why everything Sam does has to be painted in a negative light.

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  40. lala225 April 2013 at 23:55

    For me, Supernatural is primarily about the human relationship btw the two brothers, and the supernatural is the setting in which this story takes place. The emotional aspects of the story are more important and relevant to me than anything else.
    With that said, I feel Dean has the focus. He is at the center of everything. That's why I frequently complain about the lack of Sam POV. Sam needs more emotional development, IMO. And I couldn't agree more that writing him as a walking, talking plot point has definitely damaged the character in the eyes of some viewers. Not me though. I still love Sam as much as I love Dean.

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  41. chris68426 April 2013 at 00:45

    Wow, when did you become a Jeremy Carver hater?

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  42. Sleepystrawberries26 April 2013 at 00:52

    Thing is, in the course of 8 seasons, Sam has already changed so much, in so many different directions ... what else is there?

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  43. chris68426 April 2013 at 00:55

    Exactly, siblings talk frankly to each other, but whenever Sam and Dean have an realistc conversation, no different in tone than most siblings would use while talking to each other, it sets off a sh-- storm of Sam-is-bad Dean-isn't-appreciated comments. Do none of these people have siblings?

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  44. María Vegas26 April 2013 at 01:17

    I know no spoilers, but my idea of what is happening to Sam has to do with the visual effects we were shown in his arm after the first trial. It was very similar to Dean's carrying Benny out of Purgatory. So, I believe Sam is carrying some Supernatural being inside of himself, probably an angel. Not as a possession nor like Cas took Jimmy Novak, but kind of bringing to life some powerful being who has been dormant. And this being will need a body or some bones or some kind of spell to come out of Sam and let him be just himself again.

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  45. lala226 April 2013 at 02:11

    I know, right? It's strange.

    Almost everything Sam does is given a malicious or sinister spin. Even Sam not telling Dean immediately about his illness was spun in a negative way. It couldn't just be Sam not wanting to worry his brother . . . no, it was spun as Sam deliberately lying to Dean for some unknown, nefarious purpose.
    I guess I just don't understand the need to see Sam as wrong or a bad brother at all times.

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  46. Donna C26 April 2013 at 02:43

    Didn't all of that demon blood stuff end seasons ago? If anything, I'd say it was his flawed and sin-laden (as all humans are sin-laden) human vessel becoming purified before I'd say it was demon blood being burned out of him.

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  47. Donna C26 April 2013 at 02:47

    Man, you hit it on the head with the auto-negativity. Remember when Dean hid Benny from Sam? No one seemed to automatically assign nefarious reasons to that.

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  48. LightningsRose26 April 2013 at 03:13

    Okay, seriously...? Where the hell did that come from because I HIGHLY doubt that's what's happening here...

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  49. LightningsRose26 April 2013 at 04:36

    Haha wow... I see Supernatural fans still sling around the Sam hate and whine loudly while throwing their binkies. Good job, fandom. You just reminded me why I left it in the first place. You seem to be thoroughly incapable of growing the fuck up and getting over it.

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  50. Lisa26 April 2013 at 04:40

    I'm not a Jeremy Carver hater at all - that doesn't mean that I have to like this storyline or every actor's choices in how to portray the script.

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  51. Ashley B26 April 2013 at 05:10

    I never said Dean shouldn't be concerned--I'd certainly never expect him to be anything else--but dude broke out a thermometer and offered to make airplane noises.....If he'd just brought Sam some food and said "Hey, man, you really need to eat something" that would be one thing, but Dean is definitely in full-on Mom Mode here. Don't get me wrong, I think it's adorable, really, but I can't really blame Sam for getting a bit annoyed and wanting him to back off at the same time.

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  52. Ashley B26 April 2013 at 05:26

    Exactly. Dean's efforts, while admirable, are also fairly futile. Even if Sam didn't mind being coddled, none of it would've actually made a difference.

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  53. Ashley B26 April 2013 at 05:33

    Except that Sam wasn't "simply human" for the first five years of the series...kind of a major plot point and over-arcing them of the Kripke years.

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  54. chris68426 April 2013 at 12:23

    So you're just a Sam hater then, and Carver is ok as long as he doesn't write anything for Sam?

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  55. chris68426 April 2013 at 12:37

    Some threads have good discussion, but threads like this are embarrassing for the fandom. This happens every year. We can get 3/4 of the season focused on Dean and his storyline (like we did with Dean/Purgatory, Dean/Cas, and Dean/Benny), but as soon as there's s promo about a Sam-centric episode, or Sam gets anywhere near the mytharc for a few scenes, the fandom turns into a bunch of whiny two-year-olds.

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  56. chris68426 April 2013 at 12:44

    I'd like to see whatever is happening to Sam tie into his past with demon blood so that it reintroduces some continuity, and it's not just a random new change.

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  57. chris68426 April 2013 at 12:52

    I agree. It's highly unlikely Sam would be turned into an angel. Whatever is happening is something new.

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  58. chris68426 April 2013 at 12:59

    Dean doesn't want to just "help" Sam, what he really wants is to take his place in the trials. And that's wrong for a couple of reasons. First is that there's no good to come from it. Sam is committed at this point and having Dean start from scratch would serve no purpose. Second is that they're not kids anymore and it's not Dean's "job" to take care of Sam any more. Sam's been trying to get Dean to accept this for years.

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  59. sharonally26 April 2013 at 13:00

    Nice thought but they wont. They chose to forget what Dean has then resent what Sam gets. He may get a sl but he doesnt get either the focus or storytelling Dean gets the show is pretty much Dean-centric as it is . I just happy he got the trials sl otherwise it would be pretty hard to see where a sl for him would of come from.

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  60. sharonally26 April 2013 at 13:11

    Then dont watch any of you nobody is asking any of you to suffer through this awful Limp Sam/trials sl that is clearly causing you issues. I am sorry the favoured Benny got his unfair demise but hey the doors left open for him however some of us do actually care about Sam and do see him as a part of this show and considering the focus Dean has then a few Sam focused scenes shouldnt really hurt anybody but clearly it does .

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  61. Elena Wonderland26 April 2013 at 14:17

    Right?I mean check out Dean's face color and Sam's.Dean is good as ever,a lively color on his skin while poor Sam is so pale that if he was sleeping I would think that he's already dead ;'(

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  62. MasterWho26 April 2013 at 16:02

    Did Carver say Sam is becoming an angel? lol. I don't think he did. People need to stop jumping to conclusions.

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  63. MasterWho26 April 2013 at 16:13

    I've also noticed it happens with both brothers. Take a look at this site. People will say in the same thread "Dean is being sidelined. Sam gets everything!" and a couple posts down it will be "Sam is being sidelined. Dean gets everything!" The Supernatural fandom is not all like this. I don't mind criticism but I think people can be so cynical and must have it done "their way" or they think it sucks or is stupid. I'd think if they don't like the show they wouldn't watch it.


    For example the Supernatural podcasts, while I don't always agree with everything I think they do a good job most of the time with it. They give their opinions and they don't make a big deal out of which brother gets what and how the other sucks. They point out flaws in episodes/character stuff. That's how criticism should be done imo.

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  64. Topaz26 April 2013 at 16:45

    Exactly, why is everyone talking like that's where the story is going?

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  65. Lisa26 April 2013 at 16:46

    I'm not a "hater" and I'd appreciate you not being so rude to me. God forbid that anyone should have a little fun in these threads. I don't appreciate being attacked.

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  66. chris68426 April 2013 at 16:47

    There are rational discussions about the balance in the storytelling, just like there are rational discussions about whether angels should still be on the show, or whether there's too much focus on side characters, etc. And sometimes those arguments get repetitive, but the calm discussions are easy to ignore if you're not interested.


    To me, the conversation takes on a whole different tone when it devolves into "drinking games" to make fun Sam/Dean's storyline or Jared/Jensen's acting. There's a very juvenile tone to this thread. While I agree that both sides do a good job of complaining about balance, I don't see bashing of Dean/Jensen (at least on this site) the way I see the bashing of Sam/Jared in this thread. And with the sugary scenes between Dean and Benny and Dean and Cas this season, there been lots of material to work with. If there were true Dean/Jensen bashers on this site, they could have had a ball this season.

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  67. Topaz26 April 2013 at 16:47

    Well - I didn't say Sam might as well not be there without the mythology. I just said I think the writers find it harder to keep him relevant simply as a character.

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  68. Topaz26 April 2013 at 16:52

    It's quite difficult when Jensen Ackles is the sort of actor where every emotion is written all over his face (he's like a male Sarah Michelle-Gellar), whereas Jared Padalecki's style is more guarded, for us to feel like we have the same emotional understanding of the two, no matter what the writers do. And I think that makes it a more interesting contrast than if they were both as emotive as each other.

    Though I still feel like they never properly justified Sam's behaviour while Dean was in Purgatory. I'm happy for the brothers to be dicks from time to time, in fact I prefer it that way, but this just wasn't coherent. Why couldn't they have just gone for "I had no idea what had happened. I thought you were dead"? All the other stuff just made no sense in the context of what we already know about Sam and the emotional development he's undergone through the series.

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  69. Lisa26 April 2013 at 16:52

    Couldn't agree more - except this fandom has been like this since almost the very beginning. The people who are willing to engage in unbiased criticism are very few and far between. It is possible to "prefer" one brother to the other - I mean what draws you to a show is most often identification with one of the characters - without becoming so obsessed that you can't see the forest for the trees, but it is a rare thing in this fandom.



    I'm finding it pretty hilarious that everyone was dancing around with their hair on fire because Sam was being sidelined in the first half of the season (and Carver hated him), and now the other half is dancing around with their hair on fire because Dean is being sidelined (because Carter hates him). Look at every season. First half is Dean-centric, second half is Sam-centric. I believe I may even have pointed that out in the fall...

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  70. Topaz26 April 2013 at 17:12

    I pretty much agree with you. When I started watching the show I probably identified immediately with Sam, but Jensen Ackles is a fantastic actor who grabs me in every scene he's in. And the show is about their relationship, not one or the other. So why all the competition in the fandom?

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  71. Topaz26 April 2013 at 17:15

    Okay, this storyline doesn't annoy me anywhere near as much as it seems to annoy you, but that comment still made me laugh out loud.

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  72. JeanneM26 April 2013 at 17:30

    Whining about whiners is still whining.

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  73. sharonally26 April 2013 at 20:03

    Dont get shirty with me and secondly I never mentioned your drinking game I dont care about that my response is to what you said about being force fed Limp Sam and I stand by that. I am not discouraging anybody just merely stating a suggestion it is up to you or anybody wether they watch or not .

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  74. sharonally26 April 2013 at 20:08

    So what . Where did I mention whiners ? I responded to something that was said not much I can do about wether it is liked or not .

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  75. Ashley B26 April 2013 at 20:23

    It seems like Jared tried to be more openly emotive in the earlier seasons, and I don't think it worked for him as well. I think his current style feels much more natural.


    And I agree about Amelia. I understand what the writers were going for, and I think it makes sense, but the portrayal of it obviously left people feeling confused.

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  76. lala226 April 2013 at 20:27

    Exactly! I did find it strange that Dean didn't just tell Sam about Benny and how Benny helped him, but I never even saw it as Dean lying to Sam.


    Mostly, I think it was done to set up the contrived conflict btw the brothers. There was really no other reason for it.

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  77. Ashley B26 April 2013 at 20:36

    Extra kudos to you for acknowledging that this has gone on since the beginning, not just post-Kripke or the introduction of certain characters.

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  78. lala226 April 2013 at 20:38

    I don't know what Carver was trying to say in the early S8 story w/Sam. Did Sam think Dean was dead? Was Sam just following that made up rule of Carver's? Who knows?



    Sam's early S8 story was poorly written, IMO. There was no meat to the story, no substance. It was all "surface."


    And while JP and JA may have different acting styles, I'm not sure why that would preclude JP from getting more emotional development. I've loved the times Sam has gotten the emotional focus, and I feel I would continue to love those scenes if they're written.

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  79. JeanneM26 April 2013 at 20:42

    Your "suggestion" was nothing more than a passive/aggressive, self-righteous attack, because you don't like the fact that we don't like limp!Sam. Well guess what? Not everyone loves what you love. If you want to discuss how you see things differently then go for it, but don't wag your little finger at us and lecture. Do you really think that we are such knuckle-breathers that we don't know where the remote control is? If I wanted to stop watching, I would. But I'm invested in the story...invested in the characters. Oh yes...I'm even invested in Sam when he's not stumbling about while saying he's just fine. You act as though Sam is a REAL person that needs defending. He's a character written by writers whose writing is frustrating us. That's actually not a sin. I have absolutely NO issue with others who see it differently, but your argument isn't an argument...it's a temper-tantrum, lashing out at people because you think you're better than they are. Get off your high horse.

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  80. lala226 April 2013 at 20:44

    Sorry. Guess I misunderstood your post. No harm intended.





    I'll just speak for myself: the writers have limited Jared/Sam to the mytharc. He rarely gets the POV, so in MY opinion, w/o the mytharc, Jared/Sam would have little to do on the show. I fully believe the writers could - if they wanted - give both Sam AND Dean both a mytharc and a POV. This was successfully managed in the earlier seasons, so I'm not sure why it has been near impossible for them to do.

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  81. SuePo26 April 2013 at 22:12

    You have valid points, but the one thing you're missing is 'viewer passion'. I can only speak for me, but the reason I am so disappointed with this season is because Dean has nothing to do with the plot and therefore I really have no passion or excitement about it. If the character you identify with isn't really involved with the mytharc except peripherally through other characters, it really doesn't matter how much you see them on the screen because they aren't part of what is happening. How do you get excited about Dean cooking? Or Dean taking care of Sam? And we're not even seeing Dean's internal life because there is nothing there right now. I liked Dean with Charlie because she let him be the caretaker and protector he is. I'm fine with that. Sam isn't letting him, so he is not attached to the story at all. There is nothing to get excited about. It's dull and it isn't enough to pull me in at all. If I had one shred of information that he would actually be important to what is going to happen, I could anticipate it and look forward to it, but there is absolutely nothing except Carver's assurance they're 'not sidelining anyone.' There are 3 eps left, and I still have been shown nothing to supoprt this. So yeah, color me disappointed. I'm not hooked by how anything has played out and I'm watching out of habit instead of with excitement and anticipation. You can argue your views till the cows come home, but if a large amount of people are not excited about the way things are happening, they have the right to express that and be disappointed.

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  82. SuePo26 April 2013 at 22:35

    I'm applauding. :) Can you hear me? If we want to be disappointed, we can be. If we want to start a drinking game to make it all more palatable, cheers to us! If others want to attack us because of it, we'll be too tipsy to care. :) All silver lining as far as I can tell. :)

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  83. SuePo26 April 2013 at 22:39

    And it's up to us whether we like it or not. Get over it. We are being force fed a Limp!Sam story. If you like it, bully for you. You jumped into our conversation and attacked us. if you don't like our responses, step out.

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  84. TAG2126 April 2013 at 22:55

    In earlier seasons, Dean wanted to kill all monsters, but Sam thought they should kill only those who killed or were evil (think Metamorphosis) because Sam identified with the monsters. He wanted to believe they were not all evil. He would be thrilled that Dean had befriended a monster and be grateful that the monster helped Dean in purgatory. His hostility was OOC - just like his not looking for Dean or helping Kevin. Like you said, the conflict was all contrived.

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  85. SuePo26 April 2013 at 22:56

    My biggest problem with Sam's "I'm going with you!" argument was that Dean didn't even need back-up. He was going to the morgue to check out the body. They've done that -- alone and together -- a thousand times. No back-up needed. So the argument was contrived and dumb to begin with.

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  86. SuePo26 April 2013 at 23:03

    In all fairness, it's obviously been three days. People can't stop eating for three days. And Sam looks like crap. He's obviously desperate. Dean can't just sit back and do nothing, so he's trying everything and anything. Unfortunately, he's getting nothing but hostility in return. I get that Sam's scared, but he made this choice, so it wouldn't hurt to let his brother try to help him -- or at least not jump down his throat for being concerned.

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  87. JeanneM26 April 2013 at 23:05

    Yep, you got to love the fangirl-police...running around and telling you what you can and can't think. I'm totally going to play the drinking game on Wednesday. "I'm fine", "You can't help me", "Only *I* can do this, Dean," ...what else? Every time he staggers and loses balance. Oh yeah...the throat-clearing. Cripes...I'm going to get so, so drunk. The upside...I'm a pretty happy drunk. :P

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  88. SuePo26 April 2013 at 23:07

    Ignore them. We just won't share the booze. :)

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  89. TAG2126 April 2013 at 23:13

    Turns out that Sam was right. He was perfectly capable of working a case. I think Sam knows what his own body needs and someone who survived 150 years of hell torture can go three days without eating. Let's wait and see how he is changing before bashing him for not listening to Dean like so many here think a good "little" boy should.

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  90. SuePo26 April 2013 at 23:16

    So anyone wanting to have a sense of humor is juvenile? *raises hand* So I'm juvenile. We made a joke, we ran with it. Maybe the 'juvenile' ones are the ones taking it so seriously they can't have any fun with anything. No one is making fun of Jared or Jensen for goodness sakes. They are fantastic and for me, the only reason to continue watching this show. And I will watch whatever they are in in the future. But the writing this season? The characterizations? The lazy disregard for canon? I can make fun of that all I want whether you agree or not. Stop taking it so seriously, it's just a TV show, not the Winchester Gospels. I get you are a die-hard Sam fan. i'm not. I found him poorly written and unlikable this season, so I have every right to make fun of "Sam" if I want to. Newsflash: he's not a real person! I also think Dean is being whittled down to a one-dimensional character from the very layered character he used to be. You have every right to disagree and continue in your viewing bliss, but to attack of posters on this forum shows a lack of maturity on your part, not ours.

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  91. TAG2126 April 2013 at 23:18

    Yeah, Sam would get him food and if Dean refused the food all the Sam haters accuse Sam of not respecting his brother's right not to eat and not understanding the changes that were going on in Dean's body. The Sam haters would blame Sam for daring to suggest that Dean eat when he didn't want to and crucify him if he every made airplane noises at him.

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  92. lala226 April 2013 at 23:31

    Yup.





    Even as recently as last year, we saw a Sam willing to give a monster the benefit of the doubt! Heck, even this year, Sam was fine w/letting that werewolf girl go. Sam has never been the "if it's a monster, kill it" type. I wouldn't go so far as to say Sam would have been thrilled that Dean befriended a vampire, but I definitely think he would have been more open-minded about the whole thing. It's not like Sam has never heard of non-human blood drinking vamps before.





    That whole situation was contrived nonsense!

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  93. lala226 April 2013 at 23:34

    Hahaha . . . yes that is probably right! Sam can't win for trying for some viewers.

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  94. SuePo26 April 2013 at 23:59

    Apparently we're juvenile, too. :) Do the Fangirl Police have badges? Aaaaaanyway, we need to chug when Dean offers food. Gotta be balanced in our 'attack'. Add 'wipes his forehead' to the list and I think we've got it. :)

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  95. SuePo27 April 2013 at 00:12

    I can see your point, but on the other hand, I'm doing the exact same thing. I'm arguing for Dean to have a part in the mytharc like Sam. I'd gladly trade some of the POV for something that actually tied him into the story that didn't rely on another character to do so. In a way, we're asking for the same thing. Balance. It doesn't seem like they know how to do that anymore. Kripke was able to for 5 years, why is it so hard the last three?

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  96. JeanneM27 April 2013 at 00:14

    At no time have I ever put down an actor. I have absolutely NO ill will for Jared. In fact, he's so adept at limp!Sam, that it makes it that much harder to bear for me. Truth to tell? I may be a Dean girl, but I'm more a Jared-girl than I am a Jensen-girl, and I actually adore them both. I'm not sure where you pulled this notion actor hate from. Perhaps it was keeping that super stiff rod company. As Sue said...it was a joke, ffs. Lighten up.

    After years of painful visions, demon-blood addiction (and withdrawal), soullessness,
    insanity, institutionalization, ECT therapy, and now Trialburculosis, I'm just a little saturated with hurt!Sam. Not only that, but over the last three years, my sympathy for the character has ebbed until I really don't much care for him at all. So? Why is this so offensive? There are plenty other fictional characters throughout the years that I've fallen out of love with. He's not that special. Again...so? I'm entitled to not like Sam. I'm also entitled to say I don't like Sam. Furthermore, I have not, nor will I ever take away YOUR right to love hurt!limp!Sam or Sam in general. I'm not making demands that the show change to suit me. Well...I mean a girl can always HOPE, but nope...no, I don't expect the show to be anything but the show. And it is my happy lot to post how I feel. Yay for the internet!

    Who exactly am I being disrespectful to? To Sam? He doesn't mind, trust me. The
    writers? They're not reading this. Jared? He can handle someone not liking Sam. He's a big boy, and I admire him greatly. To YOU? Am I somehow not being respectful to you? I've been reading your posts for quite a while. I couldn't disagree more with most of what you say. I have taken offense at some of the things you've said. But you know what? Too bad for me. You don't owe me a damn thing. You can say whatever you want about whatever character you want. If I feel like adding to the discussion, I will. Otherwise, what you say or how you say it is none of my business.

    Sometimes when I'm frustrated...I get a little goofy and joke around. That is all I was doing...not that I feel I even owe you an explanation. I wouldn't have commented at all had you not accused me of making fun of Jared or Jensen. That is simply and completely NOT true.

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  97. JeanneM27 April 2013 at 00:17

    So I see. I made a reply. :P Oh, right, right! Food. Yes...which reminds me, we better make burgers ourselves in honor of Dean's unrequited efforts. Besides, we'll need something to sponge up the alcohol. ;)

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  98. ScottA27 April 2013 at 00:48

    And Booger plays God's scribe, Metatron.

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  99. JeanneM27 April 2013 at 00:48

    Aw Lisa, you can drink with us (this is Sharlot, btw). /hugs

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  100. SuePo27 April 2013 at 00:56

    Good plan! Fire up the grill! Since we don't have the recipe for John Winchester's famous Kitchen Sink Stew (is that what he said?) we'll have to go with the tried and true bacon cheeseburgers with extra onions. (I'll just take the onions off and hide them. Dean will never know.) By the way - Love love love!!! your comment. It's like looking in a mirror. :)

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  101. SuePo27 April 2013 at 00:58

    What she said - ditto!

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  102. SuePo27 April 2013 at 02:25

    Compliment accepted and appreciated. :) you're right. I'd hoped Dean had outgrown the caretaker role. He actually did -- way back in Swan Song -- but this year seems to have regressed both boys back to the beginning like all the growth they has managed was just yanked right from under them. Its like the writers forgot there were 7 seasons that came before. I don't like that. I think Deans obsession with taking care of Sam is borderline psychotic now and like you said, downright creepy. And Sam is arrogant and self righteous , just like Dean said in season 5. They should have learned something by now. I don't find Sam sympathetic because he's become increasingly unlikeable to me since he was soulless. The character just never recovered for me. It's not anything I wanted it just happened. I want to like him again, but not looking for Dean, turning his back on Kevin, the whole wanting normal thing (which I thought he was past in season 4 when he said "I'm not that guy anymore") and being unapologetic about it all grates on my nerves. So now, sorry, just not caring about poor limp!Sam. And now they're making Dean -- my favorite character in all of television... Well now maybe with the exception of Raylan Givens...someone I can't root for because there's nothing to root for. I was heartbroken about it all for a long time, but now I'm just gonna let it go and have fun with it all. Screw anyone else who can't understand that. :)) I'm hoping for some twist, too, but I'm not counting on it. Our game is making me look forward to next week for the first time in a long time so thanks for that!!

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  103. SuePo27 April 2013 at 02:28

    I figured!! 'Guest' was sane. :)

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  104. SuePo27 April 2013 at 02:30

    And that's perfectly normal, right? ;)

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  105. SuePo27 April 2013 at 02:32

    That's actually an interesting observation. I'd be ok win that. Just leave him human.

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  106. ScottA27 April 2013 at 02:44

    Maybe it's Metatron. Would have a hard time explaining how he hooked up with Sam but he gets to earth somehow.

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  107. ScottA27 April 2013 at 02:53

    THAT'S THE THIRD TRIAL! FIND A NIELSEN BOX!!

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  108. JeanneM27 April 2013 at 03:05

    Yep...just like a mirror. I actually considered myself a Dean-leaning bi-bro fan for a long, long time, but the last 3 seasons have just whittled away at my sympathy. And like you said, it's not like I take devious pleasure from that.

    I'm not sure what the writers are doing...some sort of reset? I don't know, but it is exactly as you say...they've undone the character growth that they'd grudgingly given them in the first place. I don't buy that Sam wouldn't look for Dean. I don't buy that Sam has this burning need for normal. People say...then why are you holding bad writing against the character?...and I have to laugh. Sam is NOT a real person...he IS the writing. So it is simply semantics to say that "I don't like Sam's writing" or "I don't like Sam." It doesn't matter what I say, I mean the same thing.

    Dean is NOT the same for me, though I still have a soft spot for him and he still has my sympathy. Like you, he is by FAR and away my most favorite character on TV ever...maybe my favorite fictional character ever. Am I biased toward him? Of COURSE I am. Something about HIS character as opposed to Sam's has always resonated with me more. But even with my bias firmly in place, I feel that Dean has been watered down and made less interesting.

    I actually don't much play on message boards because it is so volatile and stressful for all involved. My normal outlet in fandom is reading and writing fanfic. I've kind of come here the past few months because I can't stand the freakin' show right now, and I have to either say something or pop a vein! LOL. Anyway, in fanfiction, I don't TOO much like to read stories beyond S5. I certainly don't write any stories (I've never ventured beyond S3!) set in the later seasons. I like Dean of yore. So I guess that tells you how I feel. I also like SAM of yore, too. Oh yes. If I watch an old episode or read a gripping fanfic that is NOT placed in the later seasons, I can relax and enjoy Sam as he was.

    No, I am NOT expecting for things to go my way...and have this awesome reveal or twist that renders Dean relevant to the mytharc, but I'll hold out hope as long as I can. If not...well...there's always fanfic. ;)

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  109. SuePo27 April 2013 at 04:03

    Careful, I'm starting to think you have a Booger... err... Metatron obsession. :)

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  110. ScottA27 April 2013 at 05:24

    The last time I played a drinking game another prophet was chosen. Sounds like a blast out your way, Sue.


    Just wait until the finale and they wipe out the rest of the supporting characters like Jody Mills and such. It may read like a bad comic book.

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  111. LightningsRose27 April 2013 at 06:35

    lol Uhhh actually, yes they can. xD People can stop eating weeks and still not die. Your "knowledge" is downright laughable. Must be all those drinks you consume going to your head.

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  112. SuePo27 April 2013 at 16:49

    You are definitely invited, Scott! Pull up a virtual barstool. :) I'm hoping they don't kill Jody, that would suck. Their habit of killing off supporting characters is taking a toll. We have to make fun where we can -- and a little memory wipe wouldn't hurt. :)

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  113. SuePo27 April 2013 at 16:53

    Hmmm... I checked every medical reference I could find... they all say not eating is unhealthy. Nobody but you ever mentioned dying. Your reading comprehension is "downright laughable". lol

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  114. ScottA27 April 2013 at 16:59

    My memory wipes usually involve nasty hangovers.

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  115. sdwhiskey27 April 2013 at 17:28

    And neither can Dean it seems. His only role on the show now is to take care of Sam and he gets criticized for it. Dean can't win for trying with some.

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  116. Topaz27 April 2013 at 18:11

    Having someone be able to influence the plot is not the only way that things can be exciting for a character. Watching them sidelined and helpless when they're used to being in the thick of things has its own emotional fascination. It puts them in an alien situation which they then have to deal with, and that gives us new insight.

    What is drama if not a series of outside forces pressing in on a character, with the truth of the character revealed through their reactions to those forces? This time Dean is reacting to powerlessness.

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  117. LaurienWinkel27 April 2013 at 19:26

    Oh well, on the bright side this whiny-ass fandom is the reason I'm enjoying this show for the eighth year in a row now., I say let them whine; if that means keeping my favorite show running :-)
    (besides if you look at all these comments from a less serious point of view, it's a guaranteed good laugh!)

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  118. TAG2127 April 2013 at 21:05

    I see people complaining about Dean's role, not attacking the character because he was taking care of Sam. Big difference.

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  119. SuePo27 April 2013 at 22:48

    Except I don't watch this show to see them sidelined and helpless. Who watches a show to see the heroes impotent? That is in no way fascinating to me. Powerless Dean is not captivating tv for me. And this is not a psychological drama. It's a horror/action/science-fi show. Albeit with great character interaction and relationships, but a drama showing how the hero deals with not being a part of the action instead actually being part of the action is not exactly must see tv for me.

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  120. lala228 April 2013 at 00:46

    Honestly . . . the only people I see criticizing Dean are those who favor his character. As a bi-bro fan, I'm not criticizing Dean. Most of my criticism this season has been for the crappy, OOC writing Sam has gotten.

    The posters calling Dean a wet nurse, useless, a maid, a cook, a babysitter and hate his role on the show are his diehard fans.

    Do I think Dean could be given more to do? Sure, but I have no problem w/him caring about his brother. It's not a crime for me that Dean cooks his brother a meal. I don't find it pathetic that Dean cares about his brother as some of Dean's diehard fans do. The sense I get is they would prefer Dean to drop Sam, but I love the brotherhood. Its why I continue to watch.
    Anyway, so, no, I can't say the Dean fan in me is bothered by Dean expressing interest in Sam's welfare and attempting to care for him. That's what I would expect Dean to do just like I would expect Sam to do the same for Dean.

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  121. lala228 April 2013 at 01:05

    I wouldn't say Sam jumped down his throat. That's taking a rather harsh view, wouldn't you say? He just told Dean he was changing, and that his illness was part of the trials.

    Again, Sam was not intending to be rude, dismissive, mean or ungrateful to Dean. He was just trying to tell him that food and taking his temperature wasn't going to fix him. He was trying to tell Dean that something "deeper" was occurring w/him.

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  122. lala228 April 2013 at 01:36

    Honestly . . . the only posters I see criticizing Dean are his "diehard" fans, those who only like him or favor him above all the other characters. I haven't seen too many others criticizing him.

    As a bi-bro fan, I certainly have no problem w/what I'm seeing in this clip, and in fact, I haven't had much of a problem w/Dean at all this season. Much of my criticism has been reserved for the crappy, OOC writing Sam has rec'd, which has further destroyed his character. Thank goodness I can look past the bad writing to remember who Sam Winchester really is since Carver, clearly, has no clue.

    The people calling Dean a wet nurse, creepy, pathetic, a maid, a babysitter, useless, etc. are his diehard fans.

    Would I love to see Dean do something different? Sure, but I have no problem w/him fixing his sick brother some food! Why would I? What is the problem w/that? Why is that such a huge deal? Of course, Dean would cook some food for Sam or bring Sam some food. Sam is sick and hasn't eaten for several days, so Dean makes him something to eat and tries to get him to eat it. How does that make Dean pathetic? How is that creepy? It's what I would expect Dean to do, and it's what I would expect Sam to do if the situation were reversed.

    I'm sorry but it doesn't upset me that Dean loves and cares about his brother. I don't find that creepy, pathetic, or "old and tired." The brotherhood, IMO, is the show. It's the foundation. It's why I fell in love w/the show. BOTH brothers would go to extreme lengths for each other. We all know that. That's why Carver's crap, OOC story for Sam bothered me so much. Sam would NEVER walk away from his brother. The same man who hunted down the Trickster for three months, who attempted to trade his soul for Dean's, who shot a CRD, who sought revenge against Lilith, who overcame Lucifer, who took on Hell/Soulless memories b/c he was "not going to leave his brother out there alone," who was determined to back up his brother in this past episode - that man would NOT abandon Dean. He just wouldn't. So, unlike some, I can't take Carver's OOC story seriously since I don't believe Sam would ever act that way. The whole story was OOC nonsense!

    But I digress - the brotherhood IS the show for me. So, no, Dean getting his brother some food doesn't irritate me. It doesn't diminish Dean in my eyes. Dean is behaving as I would expect Dean behave. If the situation were reversed, Sam would be doing the same things for Dean.

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  123. SuePo28 April 2013 at 05:26

    I think the difference in our interpretations is you're stating what you believe Sam is thinking and I'm just stating what he did. Your interpretation is completely acceptable-- to you -- but that is not what I saw. Dean obviously knows food won't fix the problem, but he is trying to do something, anything to make his brother feel better, and no, I don't think the term jumping down his throat is harsh. It's what I saw. You yourself said Sam was not intending to be 'rude, dismissive or mean' so you must have interpreted his actions as that then tempered it due to what you believe is going on in his head. I'm not going to determine what his intentions were since I'm not in Sam's head and don't know what his intentions are. They weren't presented in that clip. But you have every right to base your opinions on what you believe he meant just as I have the right to base mine on what I saw.

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  124. lala228 April 2013 at 05:51

    No, I found nothing rude, mean, dismissive, or ungrateful about Sam in this clip but he has been deemed ALL those things by some others since this clip aired. I was just listing all the insults launched on him by others to say I did not perceive him that way.
    Anyway . . . it doesn't matter. We can all think what we want. I, personally, think you're viewing Sam in harshly, but hey . . . that's just my opinion. I was just offering another perspective, but you'll see Sam how you choose to see him, which is perfectly fine. I do think your dislike of him taints everything he does in your eyes, but again, that's just my opinion.

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  125. lala228 April 2013 at 06:00

    Whoops . . . this is also me but I thought I deleted this post! Ugh . . . this whacky Internet connection I have is killing me.

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  126. SuePo28 April 2013 at 06:25

    I won't argue that. To me, Sam has been unlikeable this season so yes, I do see his actions in a harsher light than before. I don't apologize for it because its been his actions (not looking for Dean, blowing off his responsibility to Kevin, placing his desires above all others, his unexplained hatred of Benny, and being completely unapologetic about it all) that have made me feel this way about him. I think a lot of people are giving him a pass because of their love for the old Sammy, but to me, that guy doesn't exist anymore and I don't like the new version so much. But you are right that it doesn't matter. You'll see what you see and I'll see what I see and at the end of the day were both still watching but with different levels of satisfaction.

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  127. Dahne28 April 2013 at 07:37

    I haven't had alcohol since the 90's, but count me in for your drinking game. I am going to need it to get through these last three episodes. I agree with drinks anytime Dean is relegated to caretaker and anytime Sam is unhappy about it. However, my drinking game will also include anytime the characters are out of character, canon is decimated, or I want to Gibbs slap the writers. In other words, send flowers to the hospital because an alcohol-induced coma is in my future,

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  128. Dahne28 April 2013 at 07:43

    I think we need to find a virtual bar and all hang out there together when the episode airs. We can commiserate together until the alcohol buzz lulls into a pleasant TV coma. By the way, I did just invite myself to your party. I do that. :-P

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  129. Ashley B28 April 2013 at 07:44

    I agree, as I have already said, that I would never expect Dean to sit back and do nothing while Sam is potentially dying. But it doesn't have to be a one-way street, here.


    You said that it's hard to sympathize with Sam; I disagreed. I think his reactions in this scene make sense for his character, given the situation at hand. However, sympathizing with Sam does not mean I can't or don't also sympathize with Dean. I understand why both brothers are acting the way they are here, and I don't old any ill will against either of them for it.


    You don't have to feel the same, of course....but I am a bit confused as to why you seem to be defending Dean to me when I never came down against him in the first place.

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  130. lala228 April 2013 at 14:28

    Well, I never said you had to apologize for anything you felt. I was simply giving a different perspective on Sam's action in THIS scene. You disagree. That's fine.
    And for the record, I am not giving Sam a pass b/c I like the "old Sam." I'm giving him a pass b/c I found Carver's entire story for Sam to be HUGELY out of character. In fact, Sam not looking for Dean was so OOC, that it threw me out of the story. I think the difference between us is you accept Carver's story for Sam and now hold those actions against him, which is understandable. But for me, the writing was so bad and so OOC that the story never held even a kernel of truth.
    What can I say? I just don't find it believable that Sam wouldn't look for Dean. That is so unbelievable to me that any story that has Sam doing that - without explanation which is what this story did - is not one I can accept. I needed more depth and substance to the actual story itself. I could have accepted Sam having a breakdown and not looking or something, but Sam just getting in the Impala and driving away . . . . haha . . . that is not even a little bit believable to me. So, for me, I see "bad writing" all over that story, whereas you may see bad writing (I'm not sure) but accept that Sam did these things. That's where we differ.
    And I acknowledge that - in canon - Carver has destroyed Sam and pretty much ruined the brotherhood w/his crap, experimental ("We know Sam would look but what if he didn't"), OOC story for Sam, but I feel the Sam Winchester I've seen for the 7 years leading up to this story wouldn't behave that way. In my eyes, you can't have a character act in an OOC w/o proper explanation, which is what this story did.
    I refuse to accept Carver's story for Sam. That would be rewarding him, IMO, for a very poorly written and poorly executed shell of a story. I'm not on Twitter and don't go to conventions, but I hope people keep bringing up this issue and how OOC it was so Carver knows he screwed over Sam - yet again. I also feel bad for Jared who knew it was OOC and had to act out this crap story anyway. His character has taken ALL the hits since S4, and it looks like nothing will ever change that for him!

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  131. TAG2128 April 2013 at 14:36

    Yet you are attributing your interpretation to Dean's actions that He "obviously knows food won't fix the problem." How do you know he knows that? Other equally valid interpretations are that Dean is just being controlling or maybe he believes food will help.

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  132. TAG2128 April 2013 at 14:38

    It's amazing. Sam is a big boy. If he doesn't want to eat, he doesn't have to eat even if Dean wants him to. I don't understand the automatic blame-Sam game if he ever dares to disagree with or not do exactly what Dean tells him to.

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  133. TAG2128 April 2013 at 14:43

    Well said!!! Wow, you have written exactly what I feel.

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  134. TAG2128 April 2013 at 14:52

    This sums up the entire season very nicely. You should consider sending this to the producers - not that they'll care though.

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  135. lala228 April 2013 at 14:57

    True! It's like Sam can never catch a break. Everything he does is deemed wrong or mean to Dean. The scene wasn't even that bad to me. It's not like Sam yelled at Dean and said, "Get that food away from you dumb bastard!"

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  136. lala228 April 2013 at 14:59

    I agree. I think Dean believes Sam is sick w/an illness or something and was making him some food b/c he hadn't eaten in three days, which is fine! I have no problem w/Dean doing that.

    It seems the point of the conversation was for Sam to inform Dean that something "else" is happening w/him. It's a particular disease or ailment. It's something different. That's all. I'm not sure why that was such a crime on Sam's part.

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  137. lala228 April 2013 at 15:01

    Ashley, good post! I agree w/you about understanding both brothers in this scene and not seeing either one as doing anything "wrong."
    That said, I believe SuePo was responding to me up above and not you.

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  138. Dahne28 April 2013 at 16:22

    Actually I am planning to have Charlie speak for me to the writers and executive staff. I plan on mailing postcards with this quote on them: "If
    it's any consolation, having read your history, there is pretty much nothing
    the Winchesters can't do if they work together." Wouldn't it be awesome if the writers and producers would remember that this show is about two hero brothers, both of which deserve the point of view and a place in the mytharc.

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  139. lala228 April 2013 at 18:11

    Thanks :-)

    I just feel the entire fandom should be up in arms w/what Carver has done to Sam this year. He has shown no respect for the character, the brotherhood, or the audience! And if he could trash Sam the way he did, I'm not sure why people don't think he'll trash Dean too. I guess it's the bi-bro fan in me, but I don't want EITHER brother trashed and written OOC. I have ZERO faith in Carver's ability to not continue his destruction of Sam or to move onto Dean!

    When Sam passes out in this next episode, if Dean walked over his body, grabbed a beer and some pie, and turned on the TV, we'd all be in shock. Why? Because no matter what some people may want to see, there is no way Dean would just not care that Sam passed out. He'd be frantic. Again, some may prefer that Dean just leave Sam there, but Dean would never do that. If he did, you'd hear me complaining about how OOC he was.

    Basically, I found Sam not looking for Dean just as outrageous as the scenario I just painted above. It made no sense. Plus, if the actor who plays Sam and, IMO, knows him better than anyone else also found the scenario OOC, then that says a lot. Jared didn't like this story. Jared said Sam would search for Dean. We all know he would. The only person who didn't seem to know this was Carver! Well, actually, he knew it too as he stated in his interview but just decided on a whim to have Sam act completely OOC for no reason.


    Nah . . . I could never hold this crap story against "Sam." I still love Sam. I still love the brotherhood. Carver won't ruin that for me. I still have Seasons 1-6 - yep, I included 6, which is miles better than this season, IMO.

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  140. SuePo28 April 2013 at 22:35

    It's never too late to start again. :)) and of course you're invited. My virtual barstool is your virtual barstool. You know that. :) however if we use your guidelines, we'll all be in the hospital. Who would send the flowers?

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  141. SuePo28 April 2013 at 22:38

    I'm in. I'll need a lot of support after the bottle of moscato is gone by the first commercial break. Can I bum a virtual ride home? Oh wait. You won't be in any condition to drive. Crap. Maybe we can call a reaper...um...taxi. :)

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  142. SuePo28 April 2013 at 22:40

    I think you need to explain your theory before I give you a Nielsen box. :)). You're still obsessed with prophets and angels named after transformers. :)

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  143. SuePo28 April 2013 at 22:54

    I'm glad you can ignore carvers destruction of Sam. Unfortunately, to me Sam is who I see on screen OOC or not. The Sam of season 8 IS now canon Sam. I liked old Sam. I have no sympathy for this Sam but he is Sam now. I have no idea why anyone who had anything to do with this show would think any of it was a good idea, but we now have what they give us. Frankly I'd be ok with a Bobby Ewing-Esque do-over and pretend this entire season never happened but I don't think we'll get that lucky. For whatever reason, he decided to destroy the core of the show but he did and now we have to figure out how to deal with that in our own ways. I'll admit it is hard to continue to love a show when one of the two leads is unlikeable and the other is only a fraction of the character I've come to love. It's frustrating and maddening and truly confusing as to why it's happened at all.

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  144. lala228 April 2013 at 23:16

    It's not so much a matter of ignoring it; I simply accept it as OOC crap. I don't know how else to explain it.
    As I said above, I acknowledge that it's canon that Sam didn't look for Dean. I acknowledge that Sam's inaction destroyed the character (for some) and the brotherhood (for some). I acknowlege that Carver put a huge crack in the foundation of the show.
    What I have chosen not to do is allow Carver's warped version of Sam Winchester impact what I KNOW about the character and how I feel about the character. We all KNOW - including Carver - that Sam would have looked for Dean. Carver decided, on a whim, to have Sam not do something EVERYONE expected Sam to do, which would have been fine IF he had actually put Sam's decisions and actions in context but he didn't do that. Carver didn't even try to tell a story around Sam's OOC actions. All we got was "my world imploded" and "I ran." Those two vague sentences do not make a story in my book.
    At the end of the day, I feel I know who Sam Winchester is, and that's not the person Carver created in the beginning of the season. I don't know. Maybe since I watch a lot of soap operas, it's easier for me to disregard bad, OOC writing than it is for others.
    That said, I can't take too much more of Sam being unnecessarily trashed so depending on how the season ends, I may have to cut Supernatural loose. If Carver could so easily trash Sam, then what's to stop him from trashing Dean? Or John? Or Bobby? Who knows what nonsense he'll have Sam doing next year?

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  145. Dahne29 April 2013 at 01:19

    I would prefer that the third trial be rounding up all the writers and producers of the show and forcing them to watch every single episode of Supernatural and write an essay on what the show is really about before they are allowed to touch anything SPN related again.

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  146. Dahne29 April 2013 at 01:22

    I say we find a virtual bar that lets us sleep on their virtual pool table. After all anyone in that bar will have to watch the episode, so everyone will be 3 steps from comatose. But the bar will have one hell of a good night sales wise.

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  147. Dahne29 April 2013 at 01:25

    Jeremy Carver better, damnit. In fact, I am sending him the bill for my hospital stay.

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  148. TAG2129 April 2013 at 02:16

    Sam or bi-bro fans complain about how Sam is written because he is so out-of-character or sidelined in the story. Extreme-Dean-fans complain if the story isn't totally about Dean, or if Sam dares to have a different opinion than Dean. Extreme destiel fans complain if it isn't all Dean & Cas.

    Think about other buddy-buddy or brother shows such as Starsky and Hutch or Simon & Simon. They never destroyed the bond for the sake of a contrived conflict. They've been doing it for years on SPN and Sam always gets the short end of the stick. I'm tired of it.

    I think season 8 has been the worst so far. There hasn't been one episode that I've rewatched. I used to immediately rewatch an episode as soon as it ended. Say what you will about Sera, but at least she had some memorable stand-alone episodes even if the myth arc was awful (but killing Bobby was the worst decision she ever made). I know some people hate the stand-alone episodes but I've never minded them at all. What I don't like is the rush at the end of the season to conclude the myth arc.

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  149. isleofskye29 April 2013 at 07:03

    Great piece of prose. What more can one say? You said it all.

    Gone is is the dark atmospheric horror scenario of the earlier seasons, gone the 'infantile' brotherly bond which was the the heart and soul of the show, sacrificed on the altar of a disputable maturit'y à la Carver.
    X
    Gone the protagonism of the brothers, the fighting back to back, their status as heroes of their own show.. Carver has a lot to answer for in diluting the show into a trite melodrama with some cringe-worthy lines and major canon-trashing.
    X

    Perhaps next season we might be lucky enough to see the Winchesters for five minutes every episode just to respect their contracts, 'cos when we have all the 'wonderful' secondary characters from Garth to Krissy to Castiel to teeny bopper werewolves and who knows what 'engaging' new characters will be introduced in season nine, to take their place and do the job for them, why would we ever need Sam and Dean?
    X

    This could still be a great show and it's such a shame that it has fallen so far down from its potential. Sigh!

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  150. isleofskye29 April 2013 at 07:10

    Commendable idea but I can't see any of the TPTB paying any sort of atttention.

    The showrunner obviously has his ideas mapped out and he doesn't seem to be a person who listens to anyone as 'insignificant' as the viewers, except of course those whose ideas coincide with his own!

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  151. Gina29 April 2013 at 09:12

    So basically the drinking game is let's mock anything Sam does because if he so much as breathes he takes precious screentime away from Dean? "staggering dramatically", crying, er it's all part of acting. What do you suppose he do just stand there silently every ep, if not disappear altogether?

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  152. Gina29 April 2013 at 09:22

    Jared can be great, like in Born Under a Sign and Mystery spot. He is wasted on the show not giving emotional exploration anymore in the later seasons. Deserves better show that appreciates his acting skills and will let him stretch his acting muscles. I feel like those who blame him for the lack in Sam never watched the first 5 seasons.

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  153. ScottA29 April 2013 at 13:21

    All I want is an archangel with splint mail armor, splint mail wings and a mace with retractable spikes just like Gabriel in the movie Legion. And there is no fighting. Just bleeding. OFF TOPIC: Watched one of my favorite movies last night: John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness. If you've seen it, wouldn't that cylinder in the basement make a perfect Lucifer's Cage?

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  154. Lisa29 April 2013 at 14:12

    Lighten up! If you are a fan of Supernatural, you'd know that drinking games a long standing tradition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mTUN18AFP4

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  155. Topaz29 April 2013 at 15:12

    Well then you obviously don't want to watch the same show that the writers want to make, so you should probably find another show. What can I say? As viewers we have no entitlement over the stories we get to watch from specific groups of writers. A lot of us got into the show because we really liked Eric Kripke's vision of the show. But he's not around anymore so that vision will inevitably change. Sure we can criticise, but we have no rights over the new path the show takes. The idea of an impotent hero might not be interesting to you, but it's not an invalid storyline in and of itself and it does not, in and of itself, "neglect" the character it focuses on. That's purely a question of taste. Fans are implying that this is a huge letdown, but just because it's not the storyline they want it doesn't mean it's a "bad" storyline. I find it interesting, you don't. You can't win them all.

    I don't like the direction Community has gone in since Dan Harmon left, so I don't watch it anymore. I loved the show as it was, so it's painful to me and I feel really sad because I feel like there would have been more great episodes to come if he'd been able to stick around. But I got 3 great, inspiring seasons of a great, inspiring show, and now I've moved on. With Supernatural you've had at least 5, some might say 7. That's a pretty good innings.

    You know, I don't mind people snarking and joking and criticising a show while still clearly enjoying it on a weekly basis. People have a right not to like everything they see. But when people come on and imply the show is being messed up completely and all the characters are being ruined and they hate the direction it's going in, I don't really understand why they keep watching it.

    I've argued that Dean isn't being neglected, and I don't think he is. I don't think Sam is either, really, although the writers do explore the two characters in different ways and always have. But the truth is that if the writers DID decide that either Sam or Dean didn't need as much focus anymore, and they wanted to try different character dynamics in order to explore different stories and themes, they would have the right to do it. Even if some of the fans didn't like it. The format isn't sacred just because we like it.

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  156. lala229 April 2013 at 17:31

    I've complained a lot this season and last season. I'm not a happy viewer this year, and I wasn't a happy viewer last year. I thought things had turned around for the better after ATGB, but the season is still very inconsistent to me. It's too "hit or miss" for my taste. As an unhappy viewer, I must say that sometimes you like to commiserate w/others who share your view. It's that simple.

    I don't think there is anything wrong w/criticizing the show or being unhappy w/everything. Sometimes, that just happens. I'm sure most of the posters here would prefer to be happy viewers rather than frustrated ones. I can only speak for myself, but I may not be around next year. It really all depends on how this season ends, and if the bus drives over Sam some more. Honestly, if Carver ends the season w/Sam doing something wildly OOC w/little or no explanation, then I'm probably going to call it quits. Even though I've watched this show since the beginning, I'm not the type to continue to watch if I downright hate it. I can't say I hate the show right now though. It's funny. I'm disappointed in it. It's no longer fun to watch. But I don't hate every moment of it. Maybe there are a lot of viewers like me who don't outright hate the show, but aren't happy w/it either.

    My only advice to you would be to ignore the posts you don't like. Not everyone is going to happy with the show. That's okay. They have the right to critique just as others have the right to praise. I understand it may be frustrating to read, but there might be a "happier" message board out there to visit.

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  157. lala229 April 2013 at 21:08

    Yeah . . . I'm not sure either. I wouldn't think it would be that difficult to come up w/some interesting storylines.

    Honestly, IMO, Sera left Sam in a wonderful place. During his investigation of Dean's disappearances or his attempt to rescue Dean, Sam could have met some new hunters and expanded the hunting world a bit. I was just watching TM7 yesterday and thought, it would be nice to see more hunters like Tamara and her husband,Rufus, or even Gordon (but less crazy of course). Plus, Sam could have met some new allies/associates for future cases.

    And if Carver wanted to tell a story of a person letting go of an obsession, he could have had Sam crazy obsessed over Dean, looking for him everywhere, ready to kill himself to get Dean back but then realizing that he's going over the edge and pulling back from the obsession. The plot line of "The Vanishing" could have worked.

    I liked the whole PTSD/Purgatory story for Dean, but it didn't go anywhere. They should have done more w/that. It would have been nice seeing Dean lash out, etc. and Sam helping him through it.

    We could have skipped Amelia. I was fine w/Benny. The trials are okay. I just think the show worked the best when the threat was very personal like finding dad, killing the YED, saving Dean from CR deal, both are vessels, not vesseling up, etc. I have nothing against Castiel, but his issues (i.e., War in Heaven, getting souls, MOA, angel tablets) just aren't as meaningful to me. The closing of the Hell or whatever they're doing this year just doesn't jazz me up the way the hunt for YED did.


    I think the show needs to get back to its roots. That's when it worked best, IMO.

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  158. Ashley B29 April 2013 at 22:26

    I get puzzled by this, myself. I definitely understand not being happy with the way a show is going. I've certainly stopped watching my share of shows in the past. Hell, I nearly stopped watching Supernatural in the middle of last year, after Bobby died--and I could still deliver a grand rant on S7 now, if I was so inclined--but the return of Misha/Castiel (announced during that hiatus) and, later, the replacing of Gamble with Carver, coupled with the Purgatory cliffhanger, convinced me to stick around for the time being. And I'm glad that I did.


    I know I can't speak for everyone, of course, but, so far, I've been enjoying this season much better than last year, and I love the new elements they've introduced. They haven't gotten everything perfect--there are and have been missteps along the way--but even in the Kripke years, there were certain things that drove me nuts. As long as I was more happy than disappointed, though, I was content to keep watching...and that's about how I feel now, as well. Others feel differently, and that's fine.


    The bit that confounds me isn't that people have complaints and want to voice them; It's that some of the people I've seen around, not just here, seem to have been unhappy with the show for a very long time, even before Kripke left, in some cases. and that's just mind-boggling to me....I can understand wanting to stick around for a little while in hopes of improvement--shows can have rough patches and off years even without changing showrunners--but i can't even fathom holding onto a series that I wasn't happy with for 3-6 years. =S

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  159. Ashley B29 April 2013 at 22:44

    Well, the comment notifications thing said it was to me, but I never put it past technology to be screwy ;)

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  160. TAG2129 April 2013 at 23:54

    The comment notification feature is a little crazy today. It's telling me that there are responses made just a few hours ago to comments I made a year ago. When i look, they are all from a year ago. Strange.

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  161. TAG2130 April 2013 at 00:02

    Yes, there are extreme Sam fans, but I rarely see them going to the major entertainment news sites and writing hateful comments about Dean/Jensen as I see the extreme Dean & destile fans do to Sam/Jared. Just recently one site has a fun and silly article about Jared's hair throughout the seasons and the first poster wrote absolutely hateful comments about Sam/Jared. I'm sure it exists, but I've never see such comments about Jensen.


    I love both brothers but I defend Sam a lot more because he gets more than his fair share of the hateful comments. Plus I think he is shortchanged on the show and his lack of screen time, friends, involvement with guest stars, limited dialog, etc. is worst than Dean not being a part of the myth arc. At least Dean is fully present in each episode and not sidelined. Disclaimer - just my opinion.

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  162. TAG2130 April 2013 at 00:11

    Did Carve really say that? What in the world did the Amelia storyline reveal about Sam? I have absolutely no clue. It was horrible and did a lot of damage to the character of Sam.

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  163. TAG2130 April 2013 at 00:18

    I agree that Sera left Sam in a great position. I expected the Soulless Sam tendencies to come out as he hunted for Dean. I was in utter disbelief with how the storyline was unfolding and kept telling myself that Carver had something up his sleeve and he was gonna surprise us all. I fully expected the person hiding outside the door to be connected to the supernatural in some way but instead it was just Don. Who cares? I can't even express how disappointed I was/am with Carver's decision to have Sam not look for Dean and then to not even respect the actor or character enough to show us why and make us believe it.

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  164. Dahne30 April 2013 at 00:49

    This is one of my favorite Supernatural vidders. I love both of her drinking game videos. She made an awesome season 1 video out of Your Horoscope for Today and a crossover between Supernatural and Roswell, but I guess they are no longer on YouTube since I can't find them.

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  165. Topaz30 April 2013 at 02:27

    Yeah, the last couple of seasons I've come and gone with the show because it didn't hold my interest. Again, it felt like a bitter pill to swallow because I loved it for so long (even with all its maddening flaws and compromises) but I didn't feel excited about watching the next episode, so often I just didn't. I tried out the start of this season, felt like elements of the pacing was poor and the character-writing was inconsistent and, in places, incoherent, so again didn't feel like sticking with it. After a lot of people said it felt creatively rejuvenated I gave it another go and I do feel like it's picked up a lot in certain respects - at least in enough respects to keep me watching. But it's still on a bit of a tightrope for me. I feel like the writing is better this year than last, the direction and pacing leaden. The overarching story feels like it's actually going somewhere, the individual episodes very hit and miss (but weren't they always). At times the actors look like they're really challenging themselves, at others they look bored and tired. It's all understandable. It's over 7 years old. But I suspect part of the problem is that the writers are expected to stick cravenly to a limited format of telling stories about two people and the relationship between those two people for fear of arising fan ire when they try to build more of an ensemble (especially in light of the fact the lead actors want to reduce their hours). Sometimes things have to change to stay fresh.

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  166. lala230 April 2013 at 03:08

    I couldn't agree more with you. I am very disappointed with Carver and his vision for the show.

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  167. SuePo30 April 2013 at 03:56

    I always pictured the cage a little roomier. :). After all there would have to be a place for Michael, too. But the creepy green slime works. You don't ask for much huh? Just lots of splint mail. That should be easy enough. But it's good enough for a Nielsen box. Wish granted. (If it was only that easy!!)

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  168. CyanaT30 April 2013 at 06:29

    As it's been said many times across several other boards I haunt or post on all mention of Sam's demon blood or psychic powers vanished when Sam fell into Lucifer's Cage and dragged Michael/Adam in with him in the S5 Finale. In S7's The Mentalists when Dean mentioned Missouri and Pamela I expected him to acknowledge that Sam had psychic abilities too at one time but nada.
    However, I was pleasantly surprised the Djinn antidote and African Dreamroot made a comeback in 8.20 so I *think* there's a small possibility that Sam's demon blood will tie into (and be voiced as an explanation by "someone") Sam's experiencing more negative effects from the Trials than Dean would because the DB component in Sam's blood may be fighting back in some way (?) Ep .8.21 was written by Ben Edlund who wrote several of best "Dark!AngrySam (or Lucifer!Sam" episodes, OTHOAP, AAH, TE, and MBV.

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  169. isleofskye30 April 2013 at 14:20

    Amen to everything.

    If you are going to expect us to believe that Sam has acted in such a completely OOC manner, based on how the character has always searched for his brother in the past, then you must give us a logical explanation.

    Saying that he didn't look, period, isn't enough, and never can be!

    Would it have been credible if it had been Sam who had disappeared and Dean hadn't looked for him? No, it wouldn't.

    That would have been just as OOC as Sam not looking for Dean. The brothers have always searched for each other.

    Carver has given us insights into the secondary characters' motives; Benny wanted revenge on his Vamp, we got the whole broken Amelia spiel, we get a whole ep on the the teen werewoles and their feelings, on Portia and her Master, on Charlie and her mom,etc, but not an insight into one of the two most important characters on the show. We are just left wondering! That's crazy!

    I agree about the Don thing too. Really the mysterious figure turns out to be Amelia's husband. Wow! What a revelation! Eye -roll.

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  170. ScottA30 April 2013 at 21:30

    Since the NBA Playoffs started, I watch three Supernaturals, three Bones, three Castle and then the games. All TNT, all day.


    Booger vs. Crowley The possibilities are endless.........

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  171. Topaz30 April 2013 at 22:02

    But, there are also fans like you, and that gives people like me a reason to stick around from time to time. I'm not hugely involved in the fandom because I do find myself having to skim through too many arguments over who gets the most "coverage", Sam or Dean, and while I have my favourites I'm more interested in trying to understand the story the writers are trying to tell and whether they do that in an entertaining and engaging way. I try to criticise with some degree of emotional objectivity. The Sam/Dean relationship has been really fascinating over the years, but I understand that the story has to expand beyond that sometimes to stay fresh. I used to be smitten with Sam and wanted him to get all the good stuff. Now I also feel like Jensen Ackles is such a great actor I want him to be put through the emotional ringer at every possible opportunity. But I also think that just because that gives me some kind of emotional catharsis it doesn't mean the show would be better if I always got exactly what I personally wanted.


    But, for all that it bugs me, that's the success this show has been built on over the years - a really obsessive, emotionally involved fandom. I'd like people to step back a bit and appreciate all the other things this show has going for it, and see that the obsession over giving the boys this or that storyline is maybe stifling storytelling or creativity on the show. But while I am at heart a power mad despot who thinks I know what's best for everyone, I don't actually have the ability to tell people what to think or feel. This show is never going to be Dante. It's never going to be Mad Men. It is what it is. And part of what it is, is its fandom.

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  172. ScottA30 April 2013 at 22:04

    Or sit and watch Route 666 and Bugs until the DVD melts.

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  173. ScottA30 April 2013 at 22:11

    Being from Indiana I must note we are called either knuckle-draggers or mouth-breathers. Knuckle dragger is reserved for giant people such as myself who get banned from barber shops because the chair wont go down far enough and it takes two barbers to jump up and down on the little foot pedal.



    A mouth breather is a guy like my buddy Sniffy. Mouth breathers are known for combining different sizes and types of fireworks usually ending up in the ER while doing so. :)



    And that was definitely a good post. Just substitute mytharc for Sam and you have how I feel!

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  174. Topaz30 April 2013 at 22:11

    I know this sounds completely crazy, but being an actor myself, I think the criticism of Jared Padalecki is misplaced, because the issue is not a lack of talent AT ALL. I honestly and truly think that the major thing that holds him back is his breath control. You can hear when he shouts - there's no support in the diaphragm so he sounds like he's straining just to be loud enough, and the emotion gets lost. At emotional moments his throat tightens up and, again, it sounds strained and his face tenses too. It means he has less stillness on screen as well, and that reduces your screen presence. This becomes more of a problem as you get older and need more gravitas.

    I had to go through years of retraining my voice and breathing for the stage, and it massively opens you out emotionally, in terms of what you can convey through your voice, your body and your face. It expands your register when you speak, conveying more emotion, and makes you far more relaxed in the rest of your body, allowing you to respond to your instincts more fluidly. TV actors often don't have that grounding in training, and it can rein them in when things get really challenging.



    I might sound pompous and presumptuous in saying all this, but I don't like to see a genuinely talented actor get slammed on for a technical problem that people outside of the industry don't understand. At the same time, I do think it holds him back.

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  175. lala230 April 2013 at 22:58

    He really did! It was in some interview around Christmas, I think. I was shocked b/c as you said, the Amelia storyline revealed absolutely NOTHING about Sam IMO. That's why I laugh when people say Sam's POV was given during those FBs. What POV? Sam barely spoke in those boring FBs. He spent most of his time listening to Amelia whine!

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  176. lala230 April 2013 at 23:30

    Tag, I couldn’t agree more w/you! I feel I’m fairly objective as well, and I honestly don’t prefer one brother over the other. That said, from what I’ve seen of the online fandom, Jared/Sam gets the most criticism, the most flak, and the most insults and hateful comments. It's really very sad b/c he seems like a genuinely nice, gracious guy.

    Even on Sam-centered boards, I RARELY see posters insulting Jensen or even Dean. Often, Sam fans just want more for Sam. They're not asking that anything be taken away from Dean. On Dean-centered boards, the posters seem to dislike Jared AND Sam. I had to leave one board b/c the personal insults against Jared (incl. bashing his acting) were too much for me. Many times, I got the sense they just wanted Sam gone and Jared off the show, and that Sam wouldn't be good enough for Dean until he licked Dean's boots or something.
    I understand wanting Dean to get a mytharc or powers or whatever, but those people seem to begrudge Sam/Jared getting that stuff. Yes, I complain A LOT about the lack of POV for Sam, but you’ll never see me complaining that Dean is getting a POV. I’m fine w/Dean having a POV; I just want Sam’s too. I don’t begrudge Dean having a mytharc or a POV or whatever. I would just appreciate Sam getting the same things too.
    I tend to defend Sam/Jared for the same reasons.

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  177. TAG2130 April 2013 at 23:48

    I had never considered that. Thank you for your comments.

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  178. TAG2130 April 2013 at 23:48

    Same here. I don't want to take anything away from Dean. I just want to know more of what Sam is thinking and feeling.

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  179. Topaz30 April 2013 at 23:59

    I'm glad you found them interesting and not just me hating on Jared. It's something I always notice and I just wish he could get that bit of technical training, because it would increase his emotional range so much. It probably doesn't help that he's been working constantly since he was so young, as well, so there's never been that pressure to build on his natural talent.

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  180. Dahne1 May 2013 at 00:10

    Okay Crowley. That's just cruel and unusual punishment, even for these writers and producers. ;-P

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  181. Ashley B1 May 2013 at 03:10

    What an informative post. Very enlightening. Thanks for the input :)

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  182. lala21 May 2013 at 20:10

    Yeah . . . I'm not sure why it's so difficult to admit that you took a character down the wrong path or that your story may not have been told in the best, most coherent way.
    JC Penney is admitting its mistakes! Haha! Why can't Carver?

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  183. TAG212 May 2013 at 00:49

    Hmmm, more complaining about Dean's (and Cas's) role but lots of vitriol Sam- hate in the comments section of the Huffington Post article posted today.

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  184. chris6848 April 2014 at 04:32

    Although I agree with you that Sam wouldn't want to be babied, I also thought Sam had a point about what was wrong with him. He didn't have the flu, and taking his temperature wasn't going to help.

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  185. JeanneM8 April 2014 at 04:32

    Eggsellent. Every time Sam says "I'm fine" or "I don't want your help, Dean"...we drink. Just be careful, alcohol poisoning is no laughing matter. Small sips...small sips!!!

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  186. Miss Supernatural8 April 2014 at 04:33

    I just watched and I don't think it's a matter of Sam not wanting Dean to help. I really think he appreciates it, but I agree with him.
    The only way of him to get better again is once he finish the Trials. The more time it pass, the worst he will get. Dean wants to help and he should eat, but Sammy won't get better with those.

    The catch is... Will he really get better once it's over? They thought so and that's why he did it instead of Dean, but the spoilers aren't very promising. Quite the opposite. And these "changes" are scaring the crap out of me, too. I want them both human. That's what makes them so special and heroic.

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  187. sdwhiskey8 April 2014 at 04:33

    Ha! Can I join in on the fun? From the sounds of it, we're going to need that Sangria! :)

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  188. SuePo8 April 2014 at 04:33

    True!! I think we should have to chug everytime Dean offers food, too. Of course we probably wont be sober at the end of the ep, but that is kinda the point right? :)

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  189. SuePo8 April 2014 at 04:33

    Agreed. This was a show about two brothers who were heroes and could overcome the odds despite being simply human. I dont know what Carver thinks its about.

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  190. browniegirl278 April 2014 at 04:33

    I'm just tired of Dean taking care of Sam period. If Sam doesn't want to eat, let him starve. I don't care anymore. It's beyond boring. It's especially grating because Dean is trying to take of the very person who didn't even bother to look for Dean when he was stuck in Purgatory for a year.

    Give Dean a storyline that will allow him to be proactive. Dean's only purpose in life shouldn't be as Sam's caretaker or babysitter.

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  191. keithfan8 April 2014 at 04:33

    We all know that something is happening to our beloved Sam, but we are not sure exactly. It has to do with the trials and the strengths and weaknesses from that, but I think that this has something to do with the time he spent in Hell. I don't think he is turning into an angel. What exactly I don't know, but not an angel. That is Cas' job.

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  192. Topaz8 April 2014 at 04:33

    I really don't think it's going to happen.

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  193. SuePo8 April 2014 at 04:34

    I think you are now my new best friend. :)). My thoughts exactly! Dean can take care of two people easily. Parents do it all the time. I would like to see Sam just accept that he can't do this alone. I thought thats what they were supposed to have learned by now. They're stronger together. How is this one-sided relationship 'together'?

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  194. SuePo8 April 2014 at 04:34

    Im in. Point me to the bottle. :)

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  195. SuePo8 April 2014 at 04:34

    I was thinking fish bowls...

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  196. GodDamnAngel8 April 2014 at 04:36

    Welcome to the Supernatural fandom, where anything and everything you say can and will be twisted into hate for some character or another.

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  197. JeanneM8 April 2014 at 04:36

    Cripes, the guest is me. I hit the fb, button, and me no want to sign in with that!

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  198. lala28 April 2014 at 04:36

    I agree. I don't think Sam is supposed to even have tainted blood anymore.

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  199. lala28 April 2014 at 04:37

    Yes, I think we both just want some balance. I'm not sure why it's so hard to manage. I would argue that Kripke started neglecting Sam's POV in S4. Again,I'm not sure why. I've given up hope on getting that balance though. The writers seem committed to keeping Sam and Dean to their restricted roles. A switch up would be nice!

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  200. tvmonkey8 April 2014 at 04:38

    Poor Sam. He is right this isn't just something that will get better with a bit of TLC, my guess is Sam wont be feeling better until he has completed the trials and even then who knows how and how much he will have changed. Its going to get worse the longer the third trial goes complicated so the best thong to do is to get it out of the way asap.


    I'm curious as to how Sam is being changed and if the affects will just be magical fixed once the trials are completed or JC decides Sam's story has become too complicated again. I hope the changes are an important part of Sam's storyline next season.

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