Welcome back all you wayward sons and daughters. Up for discussion is episode 8.17: Goodbye Stranger.
As much as both Dahne and Lilith didn't care for this episode, they sure did find a lot of things to like about the episode. Find out if you agree, disagree or fall somewhere in between with their opinions this week.
PS: TWP wants to start a summer SPN Fan League, sound off in the comments or shout an email if you want more information. Tons of prizes, contests and giveaways all Hellatus long.
Disclaimer - As always the opinions on this podcast are merely Lilith and/or Dahne's opinions. They do not reflect the fandom as a whole or SpoilerTV.
Podcast Break-Down (All times are estimated):
Intro, Small Talk , and Ratings
Discussion Points - 3:15
Nitpicks - 4:45
WTH - 11:25
Favorite Things - 29:45
Least Favorite - 41:50
Music / Trivia - 46:00
Grade and Review - 53:25
Contact Us - 58:25
Shameless Plugs and Promotions - 59:55
Announcements and Wrap-Up - 61:10
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dahne@spoilertv.com
The little moments were the best part of this episode for me. Everything else, including killing Meg with absolutely no fanfare at all, was a wash for me. I'm on the countdown to the end of season 8.
ReplyDeleteHey, your the best for getting this up so quickly.
ReplyDeleteThat's what cancelling a one year old's birthday due to a whiteout will do for you. Plenty of time to post. :-P thanks as always for editing.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, I didn't even think of Swan Song while I was watching the episode, It wasn't until after, and I went on the internet and everyone was talking about parallels.
ReplyDeleteI guess the main thing for me is that I don't think the writers at any point thought, "oh it would be cool if we did a scene that's like Swan Song" so much as that the scene in the crypt HAD to happen because it was the natural pay-off of the Cas-being-manipulated storyline. I mean, we all knew that Cas would be ordered to kill Dean since 8x10, and personally, I can't imagine it going down any other way.
And there were /significant/ differences between the scenes. That we got to see how Cas was struggling, in the cut aways to Heaven, for one thing. And more importantly, Swan Song was about Sam's relationship with Dean giving him the strength to overcome Lucifer. The crypt scene, for all that it was about Cas overcoming manipulation, was also a choice that Cas had to make. He's been feeling terribly guilty about what he did Heaven all season. And then in the crypt scene, he was being reminded of that, and told, basically, "this is how you fix it" - by following orders and killing Dean. Naiomi told him, "you have to choose, us or them."
To me, the scene fit really well with Castiel's personal arc, not just this season, but for the entirety of his time on the show. And to say that it's just a rip-off of Swan Song, really ignores that.
Almost everyone on my Twitter feed immediately thought of Swan Song from the position Dean was in to the bruising and blood on his face. I firmly believe that the scene was supposed to make us think of Swan Song since the entire episode was rife with bringing up the past. As for the differences, the similarities by far outweigh any differences. Both Sam and Cas used their family connection to Dean to break free from the being that was manipulating them. That Sam had a bit harder time because he had less free will isn't that big of a difference to me. They both made a choice. They both chose Dean. They could have done this different in a thousand different ways than beating a kneeling Dean to a bloody pulp and having him beg for his life. Even having him pinned to a wall or choking would have been different. Instead they pulled Swan Song out and cheapened the previous powerful moment because of it. To me it cheapened this scene too. I also don't see how Cas feeling guilty about heaven is any different than Sam feeling guilty about the Apocalypse. It's a parallel story except Sam got a season's worth of repentance and Cas did not. I agree that we were heading toward Castiel being commanded to kill to Dean the entire time. It was definitely transparent. I also agree that it is the season 8 version of the season 4 story of Cas choosing where his loyalties lie. I just happen to believe that we've already done that story and I liked the former story a lot better.
ReplyDeleteI guess the difference in our perspectives is that I see the parallels with Swan Song as a nice extra, not as the main point of the scene. So the scenes were staged similarly, that's surface-y stuff. The scene also called back to Point of No Return (with Dean saying "just do it"). The parallels are neat and they're there, but they're not the important thing.
ReplyDeleteSam didn't have a choice to make when he was being controlled by Lucifer? Why would he choose to give in to the devil and beat his brother to death? Cas feeling guilty about Heaven is a difference because it meant that beyond being manipulated by Naiomi, he also had a choice to make. She wasn't just controlling him, she was also appealing to his sense of right and wrong, or what she thought his sense of right and wrong should be as an angel. Saying that he could make up for what he did in Heaven was to fall in line and follow orders. There's nothing remotely analogous to that in Swan Song.
"It's a parallel story except Sam got a season's worth of repentance and Cas did not." Yeah, that's kind of my point? That the scenes have totally different ramifications for Sam vs. Cas, that gives the scene significance beyond just being a parallel to Swan Song. For Sam it was about redemption. For Cas it was about choice.
I thought the scene was perfect. It was exactly what I expected, and exactly what I wanted to happen, and hence very satisfying.
Your podcasts are always entertaining and it's good that you try and look for the silver lining but that lining has worn very thin IMO.
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This episode emphasises what the writers have been gradually doing to Sam and Dean, turning them into useless wimps. Once they were the heroes, ready to sacrifice their own lives to protect strangers; joyous when they managed to save someone who was possessed. Even when Sam was on the demon blood, he was happy that at least when he used his power, the demon was sent back to hell without him having to damage the host.
Dean was once the rescuer on the white stallion who bad-assed his way through killing evil; he too on a rush when managed to save a life.
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Those men anre no longer the Sam and Dean we have now. The writers have turned them into incompetents, who are incapable of doing anything by themselves, always needing others to save the day, even when those persons are much less experienced than them.
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The Sam Meg exchange was pukey. Dude, she possesssed you, made you kill a person, made you shoot your brother, nearly kill Jo and now it's all nostagia for old times!
I wish Sam was soulless again for he sure knew how to treat Meg and assert his authority.
Then the writers think they're oh so clever, teasing us with Sam's story of not looking without giving us an answer. Really!
I know the poor guy has no-one to confide in but with Meg? Give him Sheriff Jody to blurt out his heart to. Bring her back and invent a credible story for why Sam didn't look.
THe writers have thrown in enough trash recently, so they can ret-con that too!
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i hate it when Dean has to beg for his ife, I have always hated it, for he is the proud warrior and seeing him reduced to pulp is always humiliating. it was heart-breaking when it was Samifer that did it but at least it was a brother thing, but the scene here was just so wrong, a pathetic rip-off.
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It was also mentioned that the trials will kill all demons. Really? So the angel tablet will kill all angels? Yeah, that'll be the day!
Either the tablets are hiding a bigger plot or the gates wont't get shut!
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Then the writers come out with 'Sam is being changed on a sub-atomic level' . That's apretty big statement. it could mean anything.
Maybe the writers are going to really turn him into a Bigfoot or a Moose!!
Then how does Castiel know that? Does he have a microscope built into his wings or something?
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As usual, the Winchesters were completely unecessary in this episode, it could have went fine without them. They achieved nothing. They lost the tablet and they ran off like cowards when Crowley killed Meg.
All we got was a first edition porn mag and a repitition of, 'Sammy, don't lie to me' and 'No Dean, I'won't', something that has been going on since season one.
To top it all we get Castiel on a bus when he can whizz unseen to any part of the galaxy.
I presume he was the stranger we were saying good-bye to. What a pity that's a big lie!
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The sensation i got at the end of this episode was that no-one really cares any more about the quality of what goes on-screen, not the writers, not the actors nor TPTB, as long as the ratings are good.
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Next time we have another episode where the boys are again humiliated. 'This new generation of teen hunters are more intelligent, olimpic medalists and evertthing wonderful, while they are sub-human hunters'. That's what I got from the sneak peek.
I may be wrong and the Winchesters will save the day, but I highly doubt it!. .
Someone seems about 1000% done and I'm sorry. I still love this show and have high hopes that we'll get answers about the things that are sticking in our craw. TPTB are very aware and seemingly attentive to what some other sides of the fandom have been feeling which in turn has facilitated some quieter sides to speak up so maybe they'll hear and address those concerns too.
ReplyDeleteButting in here ...
ReplyDeleteWhile I really don't have an opinion at the moment on whether this cheapens Swan Song, I just wanted to respond to this part:
"Sam didn't have a choice to make when he was being controlled by Lucifer? Why would he choose to give in to the devil and beat his brother to death? Cas feeling guilty about Heaven is a difference because it meant that beyond being manipulated by Naomi, he also had a choice to make. She wasn't just controlling him, she was also appealing to his sense of right and wrong, or what she thought his sense of right and wrong should be as an angel."
I think Sam's story was not that he was was being controlled, it was that the demon blood, or the connection to Lucifer, was part of who he was. He could fight that, and he did for a long time, but in the end he gave in. We saw that in the Lucifer/Sam dialogue in Swan Song. Lucifer is breaking Sam down and telling Sam that Sam has always been running toward him. In the end he gets Sam to give into his rage and kill all of the demons that had been around him and manipulating him throughout his life.
Dean (and the Impala/family associations) brought him back from that and gave him cause to fight again.
So I think Sam didn't want to be with Lucifer and beat Dean, but it was part of who he was. Cas didn't want to be with Naomi and beat Dean, but it was part of who he was. Both stories are about fighting your nature to choose good, whether that's monster or angel.