Last week was an interesting week for me. I learned a lot about how the word "canon" is interpreted very differently by shippers and non-shippers, and I thank all of you for your input. It seems to me that we still have a long way to go in order to reach the point where we can talk about these things without a lot of emotion and animosity being raised, but that's okay... I'm just so happy that we're able to have the conversation in the first place, no matter what may come of it.
I will concede one big lesson learned for me: I won't be referring to "canon" anymore as things that *could* be happening. "Canon-compliant," maybe, or "possible," but not "canon." I thank you all for your impassioned responses, and I've learned from it. I'm still looking forward to that day when what we see between the lines is considered equally valid, no matter how much it differs. And I still think it can happen.
But we're going to take a hairpin turn this week in our discussions of canon and start talking about the opposite side of the coin: ships that deliberately flout canon, or disregard it altogether. How can shipping still be seen as shipping, when there isn't a single possibility of the characters actually making the ship real?
(Then again, people say that about a lot of ships that would comply with canon, too.)
Imagine a box of Tinkertoys. Each hub can be connected to each other in a million ways. Characters are fascinating Tinkertoys to play with. What we know of them, of their life and personality and strengths and weaknesses and likes and dislikes -- can be plugged into a thousand different scenarios, and isn't that, at its core, what each episode of a TV show is? The writers take familiar characters and place them in new pots of hot water, then watch how they struggle their way out.
Shippers sometimes do the same, just to see what will happen ... but they concentrate on the romance aspect. And it's just as fun a game to play, especially since it isn't necessarily bounded by an overarching canon.
Here are some of the beloved tropes of non-canon-compliant ships, and how some of them come to be.
Bring Me to Life - Sometimes a character is killed off before his or her potential can be realized. (If the show you're watching is Supernatural, that happens a little more than sometimes.) So it's great fun to bring them back to life and/or negate their death, then run through what scenarios they might navigate and who they might get to know. Gabriel from Supernatural is the prime example in a show full of great examples. Fans have taken it upon themselves to build him back into the story in a way that vindicated the show of bravery that ended his life -- if he'd lived, he would have surely been a fighting, wisecracking part of Team Free Will and helped to rope the devil in. And given what a foil he was for Sam and Dean in the four episodes he was actually given, one can only imagine what he'd get up to with any or all of them in this alternate reality.... actually, one can't only imagine. Once can discuss. And write. And ship.
Beloved Enemies - Just like great supercouples, great enemies have to have chemistry. It's hardly a stretch that a really good pair of antagonists would sizzle in their scenes together, but it's a bit more of a stretch that they'd end up working out their anger in the bedroom. But there are plenty of examples of loving thy enemy in canon -- Joss Whedon does this damn well, having turned Buffy and Spike from archenemies into an actual supercouple, and reprising the trope with Wesley and Lilah on Angel. They hated each other until (and sometimes for a long while after) they got naked. So why not imagine similar scenarios for Emma and Regina, or for Mohinder and Sylar? The chemistry is there. It just needs a little tweaking.
Parallel Lines - Occasionally, two characters don't even meet onscreen, or if they do it's hardly a memorable meeting. But shippers are well aware of the possiblities of storytelling, and if they see a common point or similarity in their individual character arcs, shippers imagine that there's a world in which they could come closer... even fall in love. Mycroft and Lestrade have never spoken onscreen, but they both hold a grudging respect for Sherlock's mind and little patience for his eccentricities. And so shippers think, what if they met for coffee, what if they found in each other a kindred spirit, what if they were soulmates just enduring a degree of separation? Phil Coulson and Clint Barton are both no-nonsense guys, both mission-focused and tolerant, if not enamored, of their more flamboyant fellow heroes. Both underused. And while they barely speak in canon, what if they did?
And so fandom plays, and rearranges the Tinkertoys, and discovers a ship that's not built onscreen but has a fun voyage nonetheless.
Randomizer - And then there's the ships that don't seem to make any sense. Who in their right mind thought to put peanut butter and bananas together... or a phone and a camera? It's a leap of imagination at the least. But then again, some of the craziest risks taken in the realm of canon pay off the best, and the same is true of fandom play. Plus, considering how much life seems to just roll the dice, it can be fun to roll 'em right back. Why not knock two people together and see what happens? You may be able to predict what elements react in a chemistry set, but when characters are concerned things can be a lot more complicated -- and interesting.
Now, the big question is why? And the answer lies with that huge difference between watching and interacting, that new way (though it's really not so new) of involving ourselves in different worlds. Sure, sometimes the fun of shipping is building out on what's seen, but sometimes the fun is to build whole new structures. And that can be a creative, passionate, fun pastime.
The box of Tinkertoys may show you what can be made from them, but part of play is thinking outside of that box.
What pairs do you ship, even if they could never be considered canon-compliant? Why do you bother shipping so-called "rare pairs"? Can you see the appeal of rolling the dice differently on a universe full of fascinating characters? Do your ships fall into any of these categories? Sound off in the comments section!


As someone who writes as close to canon as possible, i will admit to not understanding the need to ship in the first place. Everyone has the right to fantasize what they want, i just keep mine along the lines of what is shown. The characters are who they're written as to me, so deviating is something I'm not inclined to do. I do like your analogy of tinker toys. :). I just choose not to tinker. But it is interestung to me why people do so i'm interested to see some of these responses.
ReplyDeleteI did enjoy our spirited debate and just wanted you to know there are no hard feelings at all. Your article this time was quite enjoyable and I'm glad you could understand this side of the coin a bit. Us non-shippers (and i dont presume to speak for all, just the ones I know) aren't against shopping at all, we just want people not to assume the ships are canon when they aren't. You seem to have picked up on that. Thanks! :)
Never any hard feelings, Sue! And since I have said one of the things I want to do is open up a dialogue, I feel it's necessary to listen as much as I talk, and concede and compromise whenever it's a good idea to do so. I hope that, as these columns continue, you'll come to understand a bit more about why shippers do enjoy shipping so much, what it brings to us in terms of the joy and community and creativity of it, and maybe... eventually! ... how interpreting text in a different way with regard to sexuality and romance has its place in the overall discussion. But I'm not gonna push that envelope too hard quite yet! For now, just enjoy the Tinkertoys analogy. It doesn't cover all of shipping, but I think it can be a helpful start. Shipping isn't just play, but play is a part of it, and, I think, an accessible one. :)
ReplyDeleteCheers, and thanks always!
You can speak for me,no wait,you did! ;)
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree. I don't mind if you ship Destiel just please don't go around acting as though it's canon or will be canon. And to be frank, the show is not about a ship or romantic pairing. It goes much deeper than that and degrading it to having it be all about your ship just seems like it does the show such a great disservice. Not to mention it tends to leave very important characters out as if they're just sidekicks and that's not fair either.
ReplyDeleteNothing in this column about Destiel this week, you'll notice... :)
ReplyDelete"I'm still looking forward to that day when what we see between the lines
ReplyDeleteis considered equally valid, no matter how much it differs. And I still
think it can happen." But you're still not seeking validation, right? Which is essentially what all of that boils down to - I know, I know. I'll leave it alone. But if something between Character A and B is valid and something between A and C is also valid, how does that work? Other than to say why do either have of them have to be valid, why can't we just enjoy and produce fanwork as ludicrously as we want?
Anyway, I know that's just hearkening back to last week's topic. So here's my thought's on this week's:
"How can shipping still be seen as shipping, when there isn't a single
possibility of the characters actually making the ship real?"
Shipping is the act of picking two characters, deciding you like them in a relationship and then choosing to view them as such. It can mean you draw art of the two of them, write about the two of them. Can do whatever you want, it just means that those are two characters you want together.
But what does that have to do with them being real? Last week I said that most of our problems comes from the need for validation from others, whether it's other fans or even the show runners and you argued with me that that wasn't true and yet here we are, still hashing on about things that are about being validated.
How can shipping still be seen as shipping when there isn't a single possibility of the characters making it real? Because shipping has nothing to do with reality. Nothing at all. I can say I ship Chewbacca with a doorhinge and draw art and write fanfiction and that's me legitimately shipping them - but it doesn't need any kind of realistic base in the movies or expanded universe for me to do so.
I believe MontyFree was simply making use of an example. :)
ReplyDeleteI, personally, think there are two different types of shipping: The canon aimed, and the one based on "what if"s.
ReplyDeleteThe problem happens when one starts to bleed into the other. Ship whatever you want, that's the fun! trying to come up with a theory of how two characters that have never being romantically involved can work out as such is interesting; why two characters could be great/heartbreaking/dark/funny together. And when canon throws you a bone with a wink is all even better, because the idea, although not canon, is acknowledged.
But this all should exist on a "what if" verse, not affecting canon. When you start believing that your "ship" SHOULD be canon, is when you open the gates of Tartarus. Regardless of the "plausibility" factor, it's an invitation to hell that only ends in shitstorms.
Look at the fandoms more obsessed with shipping on canon, they are festering pits of despair and hatred.
I like shipping personally, I guess from the above examples probably Regina/emma then, though for example Castle/Beckett I shipped too (and then they got together yay!) Personally I can't give a rats ass if Regina/Emma for example will never get canon (which it likely wont) I'm not rabid about who I ship.
ReplyDeleteI sometimes dabble in writing for the ships and often read when others dabble. Crossover shipping when done well is something I absolutely adore. I'm not that vocal about shipping or pairing people, it's fun, but it's not as if I send a thousand threats when the program-makers decide to axe the possibility of a certain ship permanently.
Just my opinions on the matter.
Why do you bother shipping so-called "rare pairs"?
ReplyDeleteI write slash with a lot of rarely-paired characters, in part because I enjoy playing with the unexpected dynamics of something that hasn't been done a lot -- you have an emptier canvas when you're not writing fic for a relationship that has a whole second life in fandom that your writing needs to at least nod toward if not comply with. My femslash pairs don't get a lot of attention in fandom (in a couple of instances, I'm the only one on AO3 who's written that particular pair!) in part because femslash is less popular, and in part because I write pairings that aren't obvious at first glance, or for shows where little slash is being written.
For example, I have a fic for Donna Noble/Idris (TARDIS), which was my fix-it fic for the way Donna was left so violated at the end of her run as companion. I think it's a non-obvious pairing for many reasons: femslash, two characters who sort of never met in the show (though that's arguable both ways), it's human/AI, or human/alien, everyone likes to pair Donna with more obvious characters, if they pair her at all... and similarly with my fics involving Violet/Isobel (Downton Abbey) and Maud/Rose (Upstairs, Downstairs), they're elderly women -- whom people don't typically imagine having an active sexual life -- and they're kinda-sorta peripheral characters. I enjoy thinking about what sort of non-conventional backstory would bring these Victorian women into same-sex relationships in their elder years, and enjoy imagining how they might shock the children in flaunting convention.
For me, peripheral or unpopular ships are a way of seeing "slantwise" across the obvious relationships or sexual narratives in a show, and asking deeper questions about our assumptions regarding what's going on in certain characters' heads and hearts.
To me cannon is when the show or creators put something down in law, but in some cases what law is "today" may not be law "tomorrow" -like certain relationships in a good show will show show change in those relationships or we might learn something mythological, like this is how (pardon the phrase) one skins a cat, but we might find out later, it's not the only way to skin cat, or maybe there is more than one cat!
ReplyDeleteHowever, some shows' cannon are in a multiple universe/reality landscapes. With shows like that, I think you basically have the cannon of the show/time lines in front of you on screen, but might also have additional "tie-in" alternate cannon that basically just expands and explores that cannon. In those cases I think fans have more freedom ti explore and argue for certain possibilities in terms of missing plot details and/or proving basis for possible character relationships.
I usually don't ship rare pairs. I tend to try and stick to what I think the show is telling me about these relationships...but sometimes I think it's easy to start thinking about a ship, before there really is one...
For example: Some most likely ship Killian Jones (Hook) and Emma Swann on OUAT. Although it's true there is potential for this pair, because Emma herself has embodied the role of thief, which is synonymous with pirate, the two really haven't made any real advances on each other, as Emma seems to not want to be that person anymore, and because Hook is a womanizer and has own personal agenda that so far seems more important than Emma. I know some feel they have romantic chemistry, where I feel they have little. Instead however, I felt Hook showed something way more genuine and compassionate when concerning Aurora and her heart. Additionally both characters come off a little shallow when presented to audience (a similarity), but also opposite in terms of their positions in life (a juxtaposition), but for what ever reason, I feel like there is "something" between them, but I'm not going to be bummed if it doesn't happen and if the writers convince me that Aurora does really love Philip and/or Hook's story line changes and presents a different side in which shows me he cares for Emma or someone else. I'm usually capable of going with the flow despite if my theories or ships turn out to be wrong. I also think it's not fair to be harsh about some fact with others until we get to the end of the series, because that's really when there's no going back or adding onto whatever the truth of the reality and the relationships are going to be.
100% Agree with this!
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of my ships are in the "Beloved Enemies (and badboy-badgirl with goodgirl-goodboy)" :D Buffy/Spike, Buffy/Faith, Emma/Regina, Eric/Sookie, Damon/Elena, Draco/Hermione etc. It's just more fun :D
ReplyDeleteI think the majority of my ships are not canon and most of them are never going to be but I don't care as long as they share good scenes on screen:) I have my imagination and fanfictions to do the rest :D
I like shipping crossover couples too like Dean/Buffy or Dean/Faith
I think too that I mostly ship non canon couple because of (or thanks to :p) the fandom and fanfictions...For exemple I didn't ship Buffy/Faith at first but then I found fanfics about them, realised that they had a real potential and I started shipping them :)
The beauty of fanfiction is that we can imagine anything we like - even if that anything doesn't make any sense, like shipping Cas with Ruby or, I dunno, shipping Sherlock with Anderson.
ReplyDeleteLike... I love my Gabriel so much. I spend my free time reading Team Free Will fics and they all just drive around and get rid of evil thingies and eat food and stuff... I love it. I love it. I really love it. Do I think it has a shot at being canon? NOPE. Do I -want- it to be canon? NOPE. Maybe as a happily-ever-after, I suppose, it would work well enough, but... it would kind of cheapen everything.
When I was a young girl, I read the Myst trilogy - books are written, and you can go inside them, and everything inside is real; the book is a gateway to another universe and you can make the rules and the story. Since then, I had a feeling that the characters I read about, the characters I see on the television... they are real, somewhere, somehow. So, if I write a fanfiction about Team Free Will driving around listening to metal and getting laid... it's real somewhere, somehow, and my bbs deserve it, in whatever universe they are! It's about as real as the show's canon, also, so... xD
God, that explanation makes me sound crazy, but I love fictional characters more than people and I am NOT sorry about that.
TL;DR I DO WHAT I WANT
Also, I ship Debriel and Team Free Love and I blame CERTAIN PERSONS WHO WROTE IT AND PUT IT ON AO3 AND THEN I READ IT BECAUSE I WAS CURIOUS *squinty eyes*
ReplyDeleteCareful with your wording, there! There is absolutely nothing degrading (with the implication of something being 'dirty' or 'wrong,' or even 'of a lesser quality than "normal" participants') about participating in a medium and taking your primary enjoyment from shipping a particular set of characters. For quite a lot of people (myself included), shipping is a way of seeing in media what we want to see in real life, and the urging to make certain pairings canon-or-canon-compliant reflects the changes we want to see happen in the real world. I think a lot of people don't understand how meaningful it would be to see not only a gay or lesbian or other relationship on a show, but to also see the progression from non-couple to couple. You'll often see cameos in other shows (Doctor Who's Madame Vastra comes to mind) of LGBTQ characters, but very rarely will you see a progressing relationship where the whole point isn't 'omg, they're gay' but rather 'they're in love and they happen to be the same gender.' Even rarer to see title characters in such a position! That's why shipping is important, even to people who might not participate in it. Media reflects the current state of our society, and as such has the ability to change the minds of people who come in contact with it!
ReplyDeleteSo, back to degradation. Why is it doing the show a disservice? Think of media, all media, like poetry: every person gets something different out of it, but the primary purposes of any form of entertainment are to a. provoke thought, and b. to entertain. Shipping falls into both of these categories! This means that regardless of whether someone watches a show for relationships or plot or character development, the show itself is still fulfilling its non-commercial purpose. That's the beauty of media!
So where does that leave people who don't ship? Well, anywhere they want to be, really. It's very rare to find TV shows that are so specialized that they'll exclude an entire type of viewer. The thing to ultimately keep in mind is that regardless of whether you find a particularly zealous shipper to be annoying or frustrating or upsetting, they aren't changing the show. Showrunners may respond to fans, but they don't tend to respond to fans unless there are a LOT of them, and all saying the same thing. In which case it still isn't the fans' decision, but the showrunners responding to the current sociological environment. And change doesn't mean that it will become all about a single relationship! Sometimes that happens, like with Bones, but quite often it doesn't! I sincerely doubt that if Dean/Castiel ever became canon that the show would suddenly start to revolve around them, as, quite frankly, it wouldn't really sell based on the show's previous set-up.
So, in the end, does it really, truly hurt anything or anyone for people to wish (or even say) that Dean/Castiel is canon? Does it actively change the show in a way unlike previously established character progression through them doing so? Or is it just not your cup of tea? Which is fine, of course! It's all fine. But they're definitely not the same thing. :)
I'm the same. People can ship who ever they want, even characters from two different shows, but no matter the chemistry don't try to sell it to me as canon until it is. I'm the type that usually needs to see to believe, even in everyday life.
ReplyDelete"I still think making your ship/theory a reality to the point where your hostile towards others, or get nasty with the cast and writers is when a person has lost perspective and is no longer respectful to what the creators have created and thus shouldn't be using any of the material for fan fiction at all."
ReplyDeleteWell stated. I've seen a few shippers get so hostile and defensive over their ship and it's hard to respect people like that.
Fan Fiction is whatever you can imagine you can do it! There are very few limitations. Personally I what my A/U worlds to obey the laws of physics and logic. But there are some who certainly do not.
ReplyDeleteI am the same in that I have a hard time with the idea of shipping any non-canon couples, but especially when it goes against their apparent canon sexuality.
ReplyDeleteFor example, I know there isn't enough same-sex couples on TV and that sexuality can change but I just don't like such canon turners (it's the same for a gay person going straight - just to be clear!)
Ha! I noticed! Always go with the safer route. :)
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree. I would also have a hard time with Severide and Shay romatic relationship! (and isn't she much better on this than H50?) So it's not the gay or straight thing for me either - it's putting a character against his or her obvious canon sexuality. Just no. :)
ReplyDeleteHa! Well, I don't know you so I wasn't speaking for you, but consider yourself in the fold now!
ReplyDeleteDitto!
ReplyDeleteNicely said..
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, the only thing that a shipper who is insisting their ship could be canon when it isn't is hurting is their own credibility. As I said before, I don't ship anything. I don't see a need for it as I will leave any and all romantic relationships to the series writers and creators and simply enjoy their vision as presented to me. There is nothing wrong with people writing fanfic or discussing what they do want to see and creating any number of relationships, but the problem most of us (again, just speaking for the people I know -- and now laura3341 :)) have is when the ships people are enamored by are not canon but are presented as such. Ship anyone you want, but canon is still canon and as tiptoe learned, not as open to interpretation as some wish it to be. Sometimes, a blue sky is just a blue sky and not a lovely shade of azure. :)
ReplyDeleteExactly. Glad I was clear about that. :)
ReplyDeleteI do understand, a a sense, why some people want to see relationships. I just don't understand the need to put them into shows they don't really belong in. I can't see any need to have romance in Supernatural, for example. As a matter of fact, I don't like it when they actually do write it in! (ie: the entire Amelia subplot was a huge turn off for me!) It's not why I watch the show at all. Now, i wouldn't mind seeing Danny find a lady friend on H50 and I'm sure there are tons of ships on other shows (which i will only watch if they promise to blow stuff up as much as they have people kissing!) For example, I absolutely hated Lauren German's charcter with McGarrett on H50 -- it was a pointless relationship, but I like her character on Chicago Fire and I like the situation with her pregnant girlfriend. It fits into the format of the show. I guess that's part of my problem with a lot of ships. They just don't belong in some shows, but to each their own. :)
ReplyDeleteI have a question on topic for your post but kinda off topic for the article, save maybe as an example? I felt like when Severide/Shay were doing the moving out, injured, surgery, I'll stick by you thing, that I was seeing an unrequited thing coming from Severide, but I couldn't figure out if we were supposed to think he likes her but won't ever have a chance ('cause gay) or it was just bad acting that all friend-y chemistry was turning sexual. It was weird.
ReplyDeleteI believe in trying to stick with the stories they are telling me, but I was perplexed on what they meant on that one...and since y'all brought it up. :)
@google-47a6b31548d22cb6815876e6bb47ce1a:disqus & @laura3341:disqus - Thanks! :)
ReplyDeleteI didn't see it. It is possible for it to be one-sided like that, but there's always a fine line between guys being friends with girls I guess. It is hard to tell.
ReplyDeleteHe's not the best actor. Some guys only have one type of "chemistry" setting. I'll wait and see what they do.
ReplyDelete"I'm still looking forward to that day when what we see between the lines
ReplyDeleteis considered equally valid, no matter how much it differs. And I still
think it can happen." But you're still not seeking validation, right? Which is essentially what all of that boils down to - I know, I know. I'll leave it alone. But if something between Character A and B is valid and something between A and C is also valid, how does that work? Other than to say why do either have of them have to be valid, why can't we just enjoy and produce fanwork as ludicrously as we want?"
I think this is really excellent point! -I think with theories, in regards to themes and plots, reading between the lines might be a "must" in order to really understand the work, especially if the work hinges on the Philosophical concepts (OUAT, LOST, FRINGE, DEXTER).
With ships though, I think you're right in the sense that often there is more than one love interest for a character, but also I think there is the exploration of what this character really means to this other character, which in terms of a love interest, friend, or opponent won't really be known until the end of the series, or if someone dies, or if a series has been pushing a certain couple together for long periods of time, but I agree that "ships" aren't always just presented as something "clear-cut" and there is often room to speculate whom we think is better for so and so and why, which often changes, because the truth about those characters change as we go along with them!
I agree that some do ship for validation and I think there are different levels of it, as I think truthfully we would all like a little credit when credit is due.
-I think shows are being used in fan-fiction and/or ships to express individualized social concerns, but I do think there are different kinds of shippers. Ones that want to be able to respect what is in front of them, learn something from what they are watching, and those that want the show to be a vessel for their philosophy or fantasy and ultimately ruin the show for others, because they refuse to see the difference or acknowledge cannonical truths.
Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to over think things and take arguments to out of the box places, but if someone sets me straight with information I remembered wrong/or had not remembered, or a creator comes out and makes a statement about something that might have been up in the air, I'm not going to deny that statement or observation, instead I will rethink what I thought and go on my merry way until the next confrontation! I try to be rational in my approaches to ideas or in presenting thesis/arguments. I'm not going to sit there and be mean and deny somebody else their experience or ideas, unless they irrationally rain on my parade.
Your welcome! ;)
ReplyDeleteDefining my terms, I've had ships that were outright verified canon and ships that were possibly/potential canon-compliant and I've had a lot of tinker toy what-ifs. It does puzzle me why it's such a problem to some that fans want to ship pairings that are not 100% absolutely verified canon but are possibly canon-compliant--ships that hover just beneath the surface of verified and maybe never get there. Also there are possibly canon-compliant ships where fans see it and want it and it could happen but for whatever reason the show never goes there, and some of these are more long-shot than others. The line between that and a what-if tinker-toy can be fuzzy. But there are characters who have never met, or have met for five minutes and never meet again or are enemies. As a shipper I feel like I'm led by canon to a certain extent, I tend to fall for canon or possible canon-compliant pairings--in both cases, a strong connection and bond and a lot of screentime between the two exists. Maybe those tend to become my most consuming ships/OTP's. But I love playing with the what-ifs a whole lot and for me, since shipping is about character dynamics (as well as the hotness), the what-if tinker toys are yet another way to explore facets of those characters. Some of the what-ifs have a lot of canon interaction and some don't.
ReplyDeleteOn SPN Dean/Cas is my endgame consuming OTP, but I've contemplated Castiel/Crowley as an enemies ship. On Teen Wolf, Chris Argent/Peter Hale who I don't recall have ever been on screen together yet and yet I find that idea so fascinating to explore I can't resist it. On Fringe I started as a Peter/Olivia OTP shipper, and it became canon, but there was another ship I grew to love that wasn't canon, it was a tinker toy long-shot and then it wound up canon much to my delight and shock. (Fringe btw is a candy shop for shipping, when you have 3 actors playing 6 versions of their characters...) Jo/Bela on SPN is one of my favorite femslash ships and they're a) both dead and b) have never met.
Right! I agree with all of this. You just go a lot deeper than I do in what you're saying, lol!
ReplyDeleteThe exploration and the speculation can be fun, especially when you're writing two characters who the source material really doesn't give of a lot support to. Say; Hawkeye and Coulson from the Avengers fandom who appear on screen together exactly never. You can take what you know about each character and then try and come up with a (hopefully creative and entertaining to read) scenario that puts them together in a believable way. That said, if I were to do this, I wouldn't expect anything from anyone. Sure, if you read my story and you like it, comments are always appreciated. But I would never expect someone to say, "oh, look, they wrote this really killer story and now I fully support that relationship as being legitimate, because they wrote it so well."
There's always some amount of influence on other people, of course, I find myself gaining new head canon from others all the time. But to say that what I've gone and done is valid and real, is pushing it. And here's the thing: I don't expect you to only believe that my way is right. You can read my story and enjoy the few minutes of Hawkeye/Coulson that you read and maybe go on to read something similar, same pairing. Or a different pairing. I don't really care and I think that once we start caring about that, that's when we start to encounter issues.
(Random trolls aside, who just live to be awful to other people. Those guys get their own validation from hurting feelings and the best thing to do is ignore them. Retaliation only leads to further conflict.)
Like CP said, I'm afraid I didn't see it either. They acted more like siblings who were just ticked off at each other not lovers who were upset or calling it quits.
ReplyDeleteBut he is nice eye candy. :))
ReplyDeleteMaybe it was just me. There was one weird scene that made me pause and go what are they doing here, but since Chicago Fire is more of an autopilot show, I'm not gonna go back and try and find it and get a second opinion. If you guys didn't see it, I'll chalk it up to bad acting until (or if) they build on it. It's better that way.
ReplyDeleteBoy howdy is he ever! :)
ReplyDeleteI've seen way worst acting so I haven't noticed. After seeing really bad acting it numbs the senses ya know? lol
ReplyDeleteEnjoyed reading this! And I love the "Beloved Enemies" trope :)
ReplyDelete"Who needs canon?" Emma and Regina, that's who.
ReplyDeleteWoah, reign it in a bit. Your post is the only one here I would consider condescending. We have said all along, ship what you want, our point (and tiptoe has acknowledged it in her article which is the whole point here!) is that your 'subtext' is subjective to you and you only. If you 'see' something beyond what is said and shown, it's your prerogative. But, as you even admit, it's subtext that you are seeing 'under the actual story'. It isn't 'said or shown'. It's not canon. That was the entire discussion. This has nothing to do with homophobia and I, for one, am completely sick and tired of that word being thrown around. If you want to talk the Destial stuff, fine. Dean is not gay. He has never been portrayed as gay. He has said it on numerous occasions and when confronted with a gay situation (as he was last week in the bar) he looks incredibly uncomfortable and almost falls over a table in his haste to get out of there. If you, after all that, can find 'subtext' to make you think he could be hot for Castiel, that's up to you. But it is not canon, because canon has made it clear he's not attracted to men, but women. He sleeps with women. He has never ever slept with a man. You can say 'he just doesn't know it yet' but that is your belief, not what has been shown. THAT and only that is our problem with Destiel. We are not homophobic. We just don't appreciate people trying to 'insist' our favorite character is something he's not simply because they want him to be. (which is the real kicker as far as I'm concerned. Unless you are a gay guy with an attraction to Dean or Cas, why exactly would that appeal to you anyway?) So please stop throwing out the accusations. See what you want, just please stop trying to call out others if they don't and stop trying to insist we are stupid, close-minded or condescending simply because we see canon as it is -- without innuendo and without 'subtext. After all, that is the definition of canon. What is shown and said. And that, if tiptoe will back me up, was the entire point of last weeks discussion. Sorry if this comes across as rude or obnoxious, but it has to be said. And I have the same right as you do. :)
ReplyDelete"Defining my terms, I've had ships that were outright verified canon and ships that were possibly/potential canon-compliant and I've had a lot of tinker toy what-ifs. It does puzzle me why it's such a problem to some that fans want to [edit: root for a ship to become canon that isn't] 100% absolutely verified canon but are possibly canon-compliant--ships that hover just beneath the surface of verified and maybe never get there. Also there are possibly canon-compliant ships where fans see it and want it and it could happen but for whatever reason the show never goes there..."
ReplyDeleteI think because it usually does get to a point where the writers say (I'll use Alias as an example), Ok. Sydney Bristow Belongs with Michael Vaughn rather than Will Tippin,..
Because in some ways Michael is more like her father (Agent/Personality), which is another important relationship in exploring Sydney's life and Identity, and argumentativenely because Sydney and Will's friendship is built on a lie (and as he once admitted, she destroyed his life). Now it;s not to say that there were not "monkey wrenches" along the way, like Lauren Reed and like lying to the audience about Vaughn's death, and the one night stand Will and Sydney have, but I think in some cases it is more obvious that certain relationships are "monkey wrenches" which both threaten and strengthen the more obvious relationship and it's in those times, where I think fans go nuts because they can't think ahead about the idea of 'the monkey wrench'. and why one creates them.
You are way off base. What I wrote is exactly what I mean. Ship whoever you want, just don't think I'm going to jump on ship until I see the solid proof I need. As SuePo said, we don't see what you see. Just as I was discussing with Isbloom how I don't see the attraction between Severide and Shay on Chicago Fire. I don't believe Shay would ever go "straight" and I don't want her to.
ReplyDeleteJust because SuePo and I don't ship Destiel, that doesn't mean we are homophobic. I find it insulting that you assume that.
My goodness, you seem to be way off base. Both SuePo and CP made a point of saying that while they don't ship characters, they have no issues with other folks doing it. (Why do shippers take precedence over the people who like to write gen, anyway? Oh, because shippers are all infallible. Of course. I am one, by the way, so keep that in mind before you decide to retaliate with a predictable "nyanya, otter hates romance, too!")
ReplyDeleteCanon IS what you're told/shown. And where is the problem with that? That doesn't mean that you CAN'T read between the lines or that there isn't anything there to be read. Please refrain from stretching the meaning of an innocent word for the sake of argument. Thinking beyond the obvious is never frowned upon. In fact, as far as I'm aware, it's pretty encouraged. Canon also doesn't mean shallow. Canon simply is the definable facts. Sure, those facts can be shallow or not, it doesn't really matter. You can still have your own assumed subtext, it just doesn't make it canon.
I said this in response to the last article: all our problems come from a desire to be validated. Your entire argument here is just begging for the people you just accused to say "oh, I'm sorry, you're right, it's all about the romance. Good on you, pah on me for sucking at life."
JK Rowling laid out subtext because Snape was good the whole time. Or whatever. Something like that. Snape's reveal as a good guy was a canon reveal. So the whole argument is moot, she could have revealed him as a two-toed sloth in disguise as a human being the whole time and it would have been canon regardless of any precursor or leading events.
Canon is canon, subtext is subtext.
"...people who spend time condescending others for their beliefs on
platforms designed to inspire creative and friendly discussion are just
asking for a what the h*** are you doing here in the first place?"
Ahem, allow me to do this one myself.
What the hell are you doing here in the first place? (I guess to be condescending to the people who disagree with you because unlike you they don't ship.)
Hello kettle, this is pot.
my number one rare pair ship is Giles/Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It fits in the Parallel Lines category - like Faith, Giles had a dark youth, and then turned his life around and dedicated himself fighting against the forces of evil. And then that interpretation of their dynamic was validated in season 8 comics, which was nice.
ReplyDeleteGiles is the one character that I really get interested in rare pairs with. I generally prefer heavily canon-based ships, because they actually pay off in canon and it's far more satisfying. But Giles was my favourite character on BtVS, and he got so little romance on the show, that you kinda gotta get creative.
That's what this kind shipping is about - seeing the potential unexplored by TV writers, and running with it. It's a creative endeavor, about character dynamics and combining different worlds, just as much as it is about sex and romance.
And, on a somewhat different note, I think that non-canon shipping also has the potential to be subversive and empowering. When the narratives we see on TV centre the perspective of the privileged group, and use marginalizing tropes, shipping non-canon pairings rejects those things and re-centres marginalized perspectives.
I'm thinking specifically of Supernatural here. The show focuses on a couple of white cis het dudebros. Characters who aren't white cis het dudebros are often judged based soley on how nice or how useful they are to the main characters, and then they're often killed for the simple purpose of fueling the main characters' angst. When people write about Meg and Bela rising from Hell together and tearing things up, or Jo and Victor becoming a hunting team together, it's reclaiming part of the narrative for people who identify with those characters, saying that they have a story that's worth telling too, that their personhood matters.
So yeah. Non-canon and rarepair shipping is awesome.
Otter, if i could find a way to virtually applaud that response i would emphatically. :). See? Shippers and non-shippers can fet along just fine. :). Well said, my friend.
ReplyDeleteI generally don't even bother to get into discussion like this because of the response I know I'll receive. Tiptoe39 was very open and honest about her position yet was willing to listen and understand the opposite side of the coin. That's why I came back to this post. But yes, I've run into many who get very testy if you don't agree. And almost every time, I get the homophobic accusation. I'm not. I have gay friends and believe to each their own. On the other hand, as a heterosexual female, I will openly admit to having fantasies about Dean Winchester (and I can distinguish between Dean and Jensen!) and I promise absolutely none of those fantasies involve another man. :))
ReplyDeleteI don't know--I'm aware of canon, but I think it has very little to do with shipping (at least "my" shipping).
ReplyDeleteSometimes, I'm in the mood to read fic that is canon-compliant. What I mean by that is that the author does their best to make it fit with what we see in the original text--but you could do that with almost any two characters. I've read fics that make couples that will clearly never be canon seem very credible.
Sometimes, I don't give a shit, and I read insane AUs that have nothing to do with canon. Both are equally good.
I do get fairly irritated when things are referred to as being canon when they aren't... It seems like newer fans have a looser definition of canon than what used to be the norm, but I just can't get used to it (or perhaps it's just different fandoms having their own understandings, I'm really not sure). To me, canon is what's happening in front of my eyes on the show or in the text--it's not subtext. It's inarguable and definitive. But I also don't understand the need to have a ship be canon or even be a possibility in canon. Canon is just the limited perspective of the text's writer(s)--fanon is all the beautiful things that we can do with it. And I love both, but I do regard them separately.
Recently I've seen a lot more outcries of homophobia than I used to, and it seems to all be connected to the canon issue. You don't think Destiel is canon? Homophobic. Don't see Johnlock? Homophobic. Don't think Dean is bisexual? Homophobic.
ReplyDeleteIt's weird to me, because I don't even really see the Destiel subtext (they make some cute jokes about it now and again, but they make them about every pair of male characters that ever come into contact with one another). It's certainly not canon. But hell, I ship Wincest like it's going out of style, not to mention the twelve bajillion other slash ships I like. But those ships aren't canon either (except Spike/Angel, because Joss is truly a god). So, I think that it's not homophobia (at least not usually)--sometimes people just don't see things the same way as you do.
Dean's sexuality has been a huge issue lately. It's funny, because I don't really agree with either side. He's obviously not canonically bisexual, because we've never had him acknowledge attraction to men. However, I don't know how people can be like "He's definitely only slept with women ever," either... We don't see him all the time. We weren't their for his adolescence. It's entirely plausible that he's been with men. But, ultimately, it's true that in canon we've only seen him display interest in women. It's a back-and-forth kind of thing for me. I have no doubt that the writers intend to present him as straight, but just as we haven't had Dean announce any attraction to men we also haven't had him sit down and explain his complete heterosexuality. But in all honesty, I don't care what his sexuality is... It all just depends on what fic I'm reading that day.
I guess you don't know what canon means then.
ReplyDelete