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Let's face it, if you put all the series bias aside Spike wins without anybody else being able to even compete. (that being said, Damon is probably today's Spike on TV)
Have to go with Spike. Move away Damons Erics and others wimps. and give space to a character who is Possibly amongst the BEST tv vampires ever written.
I am sure that the fangirl army will make either Damon or Eric get an undeserving win(most likely Damon since TVD fanbase loves abusive unlikeable crybabies), but Spike has already won by being a better character than that.
Haha. I've watched them all to some degree (underworld and true blood not as much). I was around for Lost Boys and the Ann Rice craze (which in my opinion really changed the genre). And Blade isn't my favorite tv/movie vampire or even my favorite tv/movie vampire story, but he was a seriously BAMF.
I would just like to point out that on numerous occasions for large story arcs, Spike was "abusive," "unlikable" and a "crybaby" as well. He started out a villain that they only told us was supposed to be scary and never did anything scary but did manage to get dumped on by Drusilla and Angelus quite a bit. He was always a whipping boy for love; it was who he was even before he became a vampire. He got a chip put in his head and went crazy, and commissioned a Buffy-bot and at any point in the series Buffy could have killed him without blinking. Liking Spike is a perfectly valid tact, but so is liking Damon or Lestat or anyone else--"fangirling" has nothing to do with it.
I watch almost all of these shows, especially the frontrunners. And I still have to give this to Pam. She really is the most consistent, badass vamp I've seen.
Spike tried to rape buffy, WAS HORRIFIED by his own actions, consciously chose to CHANGE and to NOT be that person, SOUGHT OUT for a way to do that, FOUGHT for a way to do that and tried to atone for what he tried to do. And then, when Buffy actually ASKED him to be badass, in a way giving a bit of forgiveness, he was badass and he continued to be badass.
Damon raped Caroline...and then next season he did exact same thing with Andie. And no one, including him even cared.
Spike is best because of his complex character narrative, everything that he is or was - insecure romantic poet, complete monster, man in-between two worlds. Its those parts, his insecurities, complexes and his strengths - that make the whole that badass. We see a person, very flawed person, who refuses to be controlled by his own nature, destiny or any of that stuff and instead seeks to live-in-the-moment, be the king of his own life, which fits the whole punk-rock thematic that surrounds him.
Not trying to compare the two. You were - and they're very identical in their motives.
It's all very well to list what a character has done and has been through but let's not forget that Spike was only ever what the show needed him to be - and not really his own character.
Season 4 - comic relief. Season 5 - Angel substitute. Season 6 - Buffy's sin. Season 7 - Buffy's crux/Faux Love Interest.
I'm a huge Spike fan. I just happen to think Spike was never fully realised in the show because A) he always depended on Buffy for character growth and B) He was only ever there for Buffy's character's growth.
Every character known to man is composed of "positive" and "negative" traits - Spike simply is written in a way that his negative traits only make his positive traits shine more and make him into a complete human person.
Never did anything Scary? Villain-Spike was over-dramatic actor revelling int he heat of the moment and he was brilliant. he was not a thinker or schemer like angelus - he was someone who would rather narrowly escape death and fight against impossible odds, than to actually take time to plan anything. That's part of the appeal of villain-spike phase.
He WAS a romantic, however that only strengthens his character - his "hopeless romantic poet" nature does not overshadow everything else and balances out his more badass side(as it should be, or the character would turn into a gary stu).
Unlike Damon who was somewhat balanced the first season, but got completely overwhelmed by his own wimp side in S2 and onward.
He got a chip in his head but since mid-s5 I doubt he would have done anything to Buffy and Dawn - by that point Buffy pretty much became a moral compass he does not have, for him. He was a monster, but a monster who wanted to be capable of being more than that. And it took reaching the most lowest level of his monster nature, for him to find a way to become something more, to become someone who would not do all those horrible things.
Spike's weaknesses were shown to be overcome by him and those weaknesses make him a better character, justify his badass sides. If he did not have those weaknesses and only had the "character strengths" he would be a gary stu(male equivalent of mary sue). ITs his weaknesses that make him complete and balanced and badass character.
In case of Damon, writers have forgotten what balance means since long time ago - his characters have been a pitiful uninteresting mess and TVD writers have way overdone his "crybaby" side(since the show operates under assumption that damon is misunderstood poor puppy with bestest of intentions). Past S1, Damon never ever, ever move towards conquering his weaknesses. Now TVD never had the best writers nor planning ability, but the first season-Damon was still balanced and likeable - fragile enough to justify his badass side. Since the show jumped the shark at Masquerade, he lost his status as realistic character and morphed into a pretty much more violent version of Edward Cullen.
Identical in motives? Yes. But where Spike's character succeeds and Damon's fails is execution.
And in terms of character appeal, EXECUTION and writing of narrative is everything.
Every character has been a comic relief from time to time. Saying that Spike ever was Angel substitute is hilarious - while their journeys parallel each other, Spike and Angel are the opposite spectrum of Jung's archetypes.
And yes, he was dependent on Buffy, but not governed by that. IN s6 his existential crisis is just as apparent as Buffy's and both sides of the relationship are just as abusive. And in S7 he is THE ONLY person who stands as equal to her, who truly understands her and supports her.
They are not "dependent on each other" they are simply two halves of the same thing(since ever since the very start there have been clear parallels between Buffy and SPike)
When you say things like "execution" and "narrative" you're talking about purely subjective things.
And while I still hold Spike's character above Damon's, you can't compare the two, because you've yet to see Damon's arc fully realised. Whereas, you have with Spike's.
You can say as much as you want about S6 and S7 - the truth of it is, is that he's there to serve Buffy's character. Nothing more. He is firstly conflict and then love interest. I'm not saying there wasn't growth in-between but, to me, it was there to serve Buffy's story and nothing else.
Looking back at Spike's entire history, post S3, he was only ever there for Buffy.
Or a justified reaction to a stalker who, unhappy that I dared to criticize Vampire Diaries, spends time replying and voting down every post he/she ever finds, just for the sake of it., Not to mention rarely using logic, reason or actual arguments to justify his/her opinion
Look at his/her vote-ratio in OUAT and Lost Girl posts - there's a reason why he/she gets mostly negative votes.
Currently, every time I see him/her reply to me, i have to think "do I really want to bother indulging in on replying to that". So yeah, "oh...you again".
It's always going to be Spike for me, no question. I feel like he brought a new energy to the role. I do love Damon Salvatore's snark, and his character development, but Spike went through the same transition first.
Wow. Have you looked at your downarrows recently? You know if I'm wiling to say something to you, I'm probably not secretly stalking you. (That's logic because I think you have a hard time recognizing it.) Yes, I do hold the unpopular opinions of thinking Regina is evil and Lauren is a b**ch. But I am seriously wanting to take away my support of your OUAT post the other day. I can let bygones be bygones. But you started with a nastily worded post that was patently untrue and was designed to be inflammatory by repeatedly attacking a show you don't even watch.
And if Spike wasn't a weepy crybaby over Drue and again over Buffy and if he wasn't physically and mentally abusive to Harmony and Buffy, and he wasn't a second-rate Angel replacement once the shows had really and truly diverged and they needed a new love interest for Buffy and had decided that humans didn't work (poor Riley), then fine. I'm an idiot and you aren't a fangirl at all with your Spike icon. But you can like Spike without denigrating other characters in other shows.
With all due respect, execution and narrative are not subjective things. Its an objective criteria based on theory of writing, as agreed by many reputable sources, like writer's digest, as well as people who defined what narrative means, people like David Trotter, Kate Potts, etc, not to mention most of creative writing courses in universities.
I am not comparing Damon's character to Spike's whole arc. I am comparing the fitting keypoints one to each other.
Correct and incorrect - you have to realize that somewhere mid-s4 in BTVS, the "lead characters' went from Xander Willow and Buffy to Spike, Willow and Buffy, with Willow and Buffy being each other's FOILS circa midS5. Since end of S6, Spike and Buffy are firmly THE lead characters of the entire show. Yes, Spike is there to be a challenge to Buffy - that's the basis of good writing - you have someone as a foil to the current character progression of the lead character. But what you forget to mention that it works vice-versa too - Buffy is a challenge to Spike's character too.
You WOULD be correct on if we have never seen Spike's progression - then he would truly be just a roadblock, a way for Buffy's character to get meaningful character growth, to change and to face the character dilemmas surrounding her. HOWEVER! The very fact that the vice-versa is true, makes that argument fallacious and incomplete, n ot to mention the "nothing else" part of it incorrect, since every situation that involved them both and challenged Buffy, giving her character growth, did the same for Spike too.
As for "forced" yet again I do not share your viewpoint on the matter - The way Spike has been built up, his attraction to Buffy makes sense - Spike has always been defined as someone who is "just a little bit in love" with danger, death and all those things - and a Slayer represents all of that. Second of all, Spike has always been obsessed with Slayers. And last, but not the least - combining both previous points with Buffy's character development and parallels drawn between Spike and Buffy, its not surprising that he, first unconsciously, and then consciously, found himself capable of relating to her, self-identifying with her, which became both a blessing and the curse, when both of them were going through and identity crisis.
I do agree that he was a true vampire - in a way he was more in-line to Anne Rice's vampires than the vampires of modern contemporary fiction, in that even though on the path of redemption, he was still pretty much a capable and dangerous predator. An old-school definition of vampire, just with some romantic influences.
Not fair. It's so hard to pick just one. I'd say, Klaus is the biggest psycho on the list. Damon is the hottest and Spike is the coolest. And not to forget my "Interview" favorite: Claudia.
I can't believe this is even a poll. Spike used the word ninny in an episode once and he STILL came off sounding cool. Anyone who can seem cool saying ninny is the ultimate badass IMO.
Honey, do you even watch Vampire Diaries? Klaus can't be killed. Rip his heart out, chop his head off, burn him, … nothing would kill him. The only weapon that probably could kill him is the white oak stake (not just any white oak, a special tree). And it's well hidden. And in the last ep he killed 12 hybrids at the same time without starting to sweat. Trust me, Blade would have his problems with Klaus. And I think Klaus would win. Yeah, Blade killed Drake (is it me or was Drake hot?) with a special virus. Wouldn't work on Klaus. And Drake almost killed Blade.
12 hybrids? lol Blade has gone against entire armies and come out unscathed. Blade is also extremely resourceful he would find a way to kill klaus even it meant finding a witch and gardener to grow an entire new oak tree and ripping Klaus to shreds.
Blade fought armies of vamps, right? Well, hybrids are a bit tricky. They are faster and stronger than normal vamps. And their bite is deadly to vampires (except the originals). And the only way to kill them is to cut their head off or rip the heart out. Stakes, silver, sun, … not working. Well, cutting off heads wouldn't be a problem for Blade. His primary weapon IS a sword, if I remember correctly. Ah, it's being so long … I could make a marathon tonight.
I said: not just any white oak. The tree that their mother used to turn them. That is why they burned it down (but the ashes of that tree on a special dagger thru the heart knocks them out). Too bad (or lucky) there was a sapling of that particular tree. And the one stake the gang is hiding is the last bit of that tree, the rest was burned. So, good luck finding a weapon to kill Klaus. And another problem: Kill an original and his entire bloodline dies with him. Ridiculous. The producers just made it up so they can keep Klaus.
How on Earth are Carmila and Meier Link from Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust not on this list? She has a SPACESHIP for gosh sakes! Where are the rules saying this has to be live-action vamps?
No vampire can beat Spike. His character arc is incredible! Plus, he proved to be a better fighter than his 'grand-sire', maintained his humanity enough to continue showing love, loyalty, and devotion, and fought to regain his soul for the woman he loves.
I don't think that Spike was written for the fans. Originally, he was supposed to be in 4-5 episodes and then killed off. Also, the amount of twists and turns and changes to the character couldn't have been predicted by anyone (IMO). Spike was kept on the show and put through those changes strictly due to the brilliant acting job by James Marsters.
Your argument holds no weight because you can make a case for the fact that all the supporting characters on BtVS were there to serve Buffy. I mean, name a character (recurring) that wasn't there to serve Buffy. That's pretty much why they are called the supporting cast. Marsters just happened to have the acting chops to take the character through the maze of emotions that the writers gave him.
Spike was a regular character, not a recurring character.
But okay, let's throw in Anya. A previously recurring character that made regular, whose arc wasn't defined by Buffy. The argument can be made that it was defined by Xander, instead, but the character progressed beyond that relationship.
Spike's never did. He was Buffy's love interest, through and through, and only because Angel was off having a kid with Darla in LA and Riley did not work with the fans.
Spike's character progressed INTO his love for Buffy.You can't just make the statement that he is this way or that POST season 3 (as you did in a previous post). You can make arguments any way you want if you're going to be ignoring an entire season with that character. At the start he was only interested in Drusilla and what she needed. The progression to love interest had nothing to do with Angel or Riley ( Angel wasn't even a consideration, kid or not). It was simply Joss trying to screw (in a good way) with the viewers. He always thought it was better to do the opposite of what people expected. I am not always a fan of this kind of thinking.
As for Anya, the argument that she was defined by Xander doesn't hold water. As hard as Xander tried, he never did change Anya or her opinions. Anything that Anya did (that had an effect on the story) was always intertwined with Buffy. It was obvious that Xander would never be able to deal with her being an ex-demon and the final result of that was that she went back to being a vegeance demon (which became a problem for...wait for it.... that's right, Buffy.
I've got to say, you make a lot of good, interesting points but you really should work on the condescending tone of your posts. It's a bit off-putting, bordering on insulting. Which is too bad cause like I said, you seem well-versed in all things Buffy and you make valid points.
NOTE: Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, homophobia, acrophobia, and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.
Damon Salvatore and Eric Northman!!!
ReplyDeletespike all the way
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeleteEric Northman
ReplyDeleteDamon Salvatore!!!
ReplyDeleteA little surprised that the Cullen clan aren't here.. I voted Damon.
ReplyDeleteI voted for Spike but almost voted for Angel.
ReplyDeleteKlaus. But almost voted damon
ReplyDeleteLestat
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, if you put all the series bias aside Spike wins without anybody else being able to even compete. (that being said, Damon is probably today's Spike on TV)
ReplyDeleteWhy aren't thre results ordered from most voted for to least voted for? Right now it's just ordered ramdomly.
ReplyDeleteEric f*@#ing Northman, obviously. He Ripps people's hearts out and drinks them like a juice box.
ReplyDeleteKlaus, Eric, Damon.....love them...but I had to vote for Pam.
ReplyDeleteWhoever didn't vote for Blade should take a sun bath.
ReplyDeleteKlaus is the best.. Eric Northman sucks
ReplyDeleteLuv luv luv Spike, but for badassness, had to go for Lestat.
ReplyDeleteYou know how to make it hard for me. I looooove Spike but Damon is Damon :D
ReplyDeleteSpike is my favorite but to be honest in a fight, Blade would massacre every single vamp on that list, easily.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteTie between Angel and Eric Northman.
Favorite is one thing. But if we're going for "badass," Blade hands down. No one else even stands a chance.
ReplyDeleteThere is no one better than Spike!!
ReplyDeleteAgreed! But then again its the only one i ever watched! :P
ReplyDeleteI'll never look at a juice box the same way,ever again! :)
ReplyDeleteBlade (movies), Eric Northman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Klaus, Angel, Dracula (Gary Oldman in Francis Coppola movie), Deacon Frost (Blade), Reihnardt (Blade 2), Jessica Hamby.
ReplyDeleteHave to go with Spike. Move away Damons Erics and others wimps. and give space to a character who is Possibly amongst the BEST tv vampires ever written.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that the fangirl army will make either Damon or Eric get an undeserving win(most likely Damon since TVD fanbase loves abusive unlikeable crybabies), but Spike has already won by being a better character than that.
Haha. I've watched them all to some degree (underworld and true blood not as much). I was around for Lost Boys and the Ann Rice craze (which in my opinion really changed the genre). And Blade isn't my favorite tv/movie vampire or even my favorite tv/movie vampire story, but he was a seriously BAMF.
ReplyDeleteI would just like to point out that on numerous occasions for large story arcs, Spike was "abusive," "unlikable" and a "crybaby" as well. He started out a villain that they only told us was supposed to be scary and never did anything scary but did manage to get dumped on by Drusilla and Angelus quite a bit. He was always a whipping boy for love; it was who he was even before he became a vampire. He got a chip put in his head and went crazy, and commissioned a Buffy-bot and at any point in the series Buffy could have killed him without blinking. Liking Spike is a perfectly valid tact, but so is liking Damon or Lestat or anyone else--"fangirling" has nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteLestat was certainly a survivor.
ReplyDeleteYeah,i'm not into that genre never was, and your right about Rice.Blade WAS a BAMF,for sure!
ReplyDeleteI watch almost all of these shows, especially the frontrunners. And I still have to give this to Pam. She really is the most consistent, badass vamp I've seen.
ReplyDeleteBut Blade's a Dhampir.
ReplyDeleteI prefer Spike over Damon and Whatshisface but seriously...
ReplyDeleteSpike tried to rape Buffy. Abusive.
Spike tried to rape Buffy. Unlikeable.
Spike tried to rape Buffy. Became a crybaby for so long after.
Spike was at his best when he did not give a crap. Whether with a soul or without it. But let's not pretend he didn't pander to fangirls.
But... not a vampire.
ReplyDeleteBuffy is my absolute hands-down favourite show of all time.
ReplyDeleteI vote for Pam. She has consistency. Spike and Angel were both written for fans... which 'altered' their characters, and not always in the best way.
Spike tried to rape buffy, WAS HORRIFIED by his own actions, consciously chose to CHANGE and to NOT be that person, SOUGHT OUT for a way to do that, FOUGHT for a way to do that and tried to atone for what he tried to do.
ReplyDeleteAnd then, when Buffy actually ASKED him to be badass, in a way giving a bit of forgiveness, he was badass and he continued to be badass.
Damon raped Caroline...and then next season he did exact same thing with Andie. And no one, including him even cared.
Spike is best because of his complex character narrative, everything that he is or was - insecure romantic poet, complete monster, man in-between two worlds. Its those parts, his insecurities, complexes and his strengths - that make the whole that badass. We see a person, very flawed person, who refuses to be controlled by his own nature, destiny or any of that stuff and instead seeks to live-in-the-moment, be the king of his own life, which fits the whole punk-rock thematic that surrounds him.
Not trying to compare the two. You were - and they're very identical in their motives.
ReplyDeleteIt's all very well to list what a character has done and has been through but let's not forget that Spike was only ever what the show needed him to be - and not really his own character.
Season 4 - comic relief.
Season 5 - Angel substitute.
Season 6 - Buffy's sin.
Season 7 - Buffy's crux/Faux Love Interest.
I'm a huge Spike fan. I just happen to think Spike was never fully realised in the show because A) he always depended on Buffy for character growth and B) He was only ever there for Buffy's character's growth.
oh....you again
ReplyDeletetwo words: character balance.
Every character known to man is composed of "positive" and "negative" traits - Spike simply is written in a way that his negative traits only make his positive traits shine more and make him into a complete human person.
Never did anything Scary? Villain-Spike was over-dramatic actor revelling int he heat of the moment and he was brilliant. he was not a thinker or schemer like angelus - he was someone who would rather narrowly escape death and fight against impossible odds, than to actually take time to plan anything. That's part of the appeal of villain-spike phase.
He WAS a romantic, however that only strengthens his character - his "hopeless romantic poet" nature does not overshadow everything else and balances out his more badass side(as it should be, or the character would turn into a gary stu).
Unlike Damon who was somewhat balanced the first season, but got completely overwhelmed by his own wimp side in S2 and onward.
He got a chip in his head but since mid-s5 I doubt he would have done anything to Buffy and Dawn - by that point Buffy pretty much became a moral compass he does not have, for him. He was a monster, but a monster who wanted to be capable of being more than that. And it took reaching the most lowest level of his monster nature, for him to find a way to become something more, to become someone who would not do all those horrible things.
Spike's weaknesses were shown to be overcome by him and those weaknesses make him a better character, justify his badass sides. If he did not have those weaknesses and only had the "character strengths" he would be a gary stu(male equivalent of mary sue). ITs his weaknesses that make him complete and balanced and badass character.
In case of Damon, writers have forgotten what balance means since long time ago - his characters have been a pitiful uninteresting mess and TVD writers have way overdone his "crybaby" side(since the show operates under assumption that damon is misunderstood poor puppy with bestest of intentions). Past S1, Damon never ever, ever move towards conquering his weaknesses. Now TVD never had the best writers nor planning ability, but the first season-Damon was still balanced and likeable - fragile enough to justify his badass side. Since the show jumped the shark at Masquerade, he lost his status as realistic character and morphed into a pretty much more violent version of Edward Cullen.
Identical in motives? Yes. But where Spike's character succeeds and Damon's fails is execution.
ReplyDeleteAnd in terms of character appeal, EXECUTION and writing of narrative is everything.
Every character has been a comic relief from time to time.
Saying that Spike ever was Angel substitute is hilarious - while their journeys parallel each other, Spike and Angel are the opposite spectrum of Jung's archetypes.
And yes, he was dependent on Buffy, but not governed by that. IN s6 his existential crisis is just as apparent as Buffy's and both sides of the relationship are just as abusive. And in S7 he is THE ONLY person who stands as equal to her, who truly understands her and supports her.
They are not "dependent on each other" they are simply two halves of the same thing(since ever since the very start there have been clear parallels between Buffy and SPike)
"oh...you again"? Seriously.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say things like "execution" and "narrative" you're talking about purely subjective things.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I still hold Spike's character above Damon's, you can't compare the two, because you've yet to see Damon's arc fully realised. Whereas, you have with Spike's.
You can say as much as you want about S6 and S7 - the truth of it is, is that he's there to serve Buffy's character. Nothing more. He is firstly conflict and then love interest. I'm not saying there wasn't growth in-between but, to me, it was there to serve Buffy's story and nothing else.
Looking back at Spike's entire history, post S3, he was only ever there for Buffy.
Classic case of fangirl rage, it seems. :/
ReplyDeleteDamon or Eric
ReplyDeleteOr a justified reaction to a stalker who, unhappy that I dared to criticize Vampire Diaries, spends time replying and voting down every post he/she ever finds, just for the sake of it., Not to mention rarely using logic, reason or actual arguments to justify his/her opinion
ReplyDeleteLook at his/her vote-ratio in OUAT and Lost Girl posts - there's a reason why he/she gets mostly negative votes.
Currently, every time I see him/her reply to me, i have to think "do I really want to bother indulging in on replying to that". So yeah, "oh...you again".
I dunno, you've come across pretty aggressive in your replies across the board. So, I vote for fangirl rage.
ReplyDeleteSorry?
It's always going to be Spike for me, no question. I feel like he brought a new energy to the role. I do love Damon Salvatore's snark, and his character development, but Spike went through the same transition first.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Spike is the original and the best.
ReplyDeleteWow. Have you looked at your downarrows recently? You know if I'm wiling to say something to you, I'm probably not secretly stalking you. (That's logic because I think you have a hard time recognizing it.) Yes, I do hold the unpopular opinions of thinking Regina is evil and Lauren is a b**ch. But I am seriously wanting to take away my support of your OUAT post the other day. I can let bygones be bygones. But you started with a nastily worded post that was patently untrue and was designed to be inflammatory by repeatedly attacking a show you don't even watch.
ReplyDeleteAnd if Spike wasn't a weepy crybaby over Drue and again over Buffy and if he wasn't physically and mentally abusive to Harmony and Buffy, and he wasn't a second-rate Angel replacement once the shows had really and truly diverged and they needed a new love interest for Buffy and had decided that humans didn't work (poor Riley), then fine. I'm an idiot and you aren't a fangirl at all with your Spike icon. But you can like Spike without denigrating other characters in other shows.
With all due respect, execution and narrative are not subjective things. Its an objective criteria based on theory of writing, as agreed by many reputable sources, like writer's digest, as well as people who defined what narrative means, people like David Trotter, Kate Potts, etc, not to mention most of creative writing courses in universities.
ReplyDeleteI am not comparing Damon's character to Spike's whole arc. I am comparing the fitting keypoints one to each other.
Correct and incorrect - you have to realize that somewhere mid-s4 in BTVS, the "lead characters' went from Xander Willow and Buffy to Spike, Willow and Buffy, with Willow and Buffy being each other's FOILS circa midS5. Since end of S6, Spike and Buffy are firmly THE lead characters of the entire show. Yes, Spike is there to be a challenge to Buffy - that's the basis of good writing - you have someone as a foil to the current character progression of the lead character. But what you forget to mention that it works vice-versa too - Buffy is a challenge to Spike's character too.
You WOULD be correct on if we have never seen Spike's progression - then he would truly be just a roadblock, a way for Buffy's character to get meaningful character growth, to change and to face the character dilemmas surrounding her. HOWEVER! The very fact that the vice-versa is true, makes that argument fallacious and incomplete, n ot to mention the "nothing else" part of it incorrect, since every situation that involved them both and challenged Buffy, giving her character growth, did the same for Spike too.
As for "forced" yet again I do not share your viewpoint on the matter - The way Spike has been built up, his attraction to Buffy makes sense - Spike has always been defined as someone who is "just a little bit in love" with danger, death and all those things - and a Slayer represents all of that. Second of all, Spike has always been obsessed with Slayers. And last, but not the least - combining both previous points with Buffy's character development and parallels drawn between Spike and Buffy, its not surprising that he, first unconsciously, and then consciously, found himself capable of relating to her, self-identifying with her, which became both a blessing and the curse, when both of them were going through and identity crisis.
I treat every discussion as a proper debate - complete with keypoints of interest, arguments and conclusion.
ReplyDeleteThe moment I stop backing up my points with actual arguments(like Isbloom does) you are free to write me off to a fangirl/fanboy rage ;]
Mick from Moonlight. I missed him in the poll :(
ReplyDeleteI do agree that he was a true vampire - in a way he was more in-line to Anne Rice's vampires than the vampires of modern contemporary fiction, in that even though on the path of redemption, he was still pretty much a capable and dangerous predator. An old-school definition of vampire, just with some romantic influences.
ReplyDeleteNot fair. It's so hard to pick just one.
ReplyDeleteI'd say, Klaus is the biggest psycho on the list.
Damon is the hottest and Spike is the coolest. And not to forget my "Interview" favorite: Claudia.
Old school, ha? Like it.
ReplyDeleteIn 7 seasons never missed one ep of Buffy.
And Klaus and Michael are hybrids. Although Klaus was vamp for 1000 years, Michael started as wolf.
ReplyDeletePam - True Blood or Caroline - The Vampire Diaries. Went with caroline
ReplyDeleteAs I said, Spike is probably the coolest on the list.
ReplyDeleteOut of this selection, Caroline, no doubt. She should be the main character on TVD, not god-awful Elena.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe this is even a poll. Spike used the word ninny in an episode once and he STILL came off sounding cool. Anyone who can seem cool saying ninny is the ultimate badass IMO.
ReplyDeleteI had to vote for Jonathan Frid's Barnabas Collins from Dark Shadows. Love him.
ReplyDeleteBLADE!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteSpike a close second, Angel a close third, Lestat/Louie/Claudia not too far back tying for fourth position....
EXACTLY!!!!!
ReplyDeleteOh! Coppola's Dracula was awesome! True...
ReplyDeleteEric Northman,all the way!! :)
ReplyDeleteOf course Damon :)
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeleteI voted Caroline but I'd have voted for Elijah if he was an option.
ReplyDeleteExcept Klaus.
ReplyDeleteAnd maybe Michael and Selene.
Angel? Cute, nice. And not to be messed around when he is Angelus.
ReplyDeleteBut compared to Eric (and the most guys on the list) he is kinda boring.
I love Gary Oldman. He is and will be my favorite bad guy.
ReplyDeleteNo he'd chop Kalus too, Blade killed the Vampire god and the patriarch of the entire vampire race. Klaus wouldn't stand a chance.
ReplyDeleteSpike... Also, Eric Northman...
ReplyDeleteDamon Salvatore all the way! :D
ReplyDeleteRussell Edgington is the only real bad-ass !!! "Peace is for pussies" yeeeaaaah
ReplyDeleteI didn't vote for those two either. :)
ReplyDeleteHoney, do you even watch Vampire Diaries? Klaus can't be killed. Rip his heart out, chop his head off, burn him, … nothing would kill him. The only weapon that probably could kill him is the white oak stake (not just any white oak, a special tree). And it's well hidden. And in the last ep he killed 12 hybrids at the same time without starting to sweat. Trust me, Blade would have his problems with Klaus. And I think Klaus would win.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Blade killed Drake (is it me or was Drake hot?) with a special virus. Wouldn't work on Klaus. And Drake almost killed Blade.
Neither did I (I took Spike). I just meant that the list isn't concentrated on pureblood vamps. Blade is dhampir, Michael and Klaus are hybrids.
ReplyDelete12 hybrids? lol Blade has gone against entire armies and come out unscathed. Blade is also extremely resourceful he would find a way to kill klaus even it meant finding a witch and gardener to grow an entire new oak tree and ripping Klaus to shreds.
ReplyDeleteBlade fought armies of vamps, right? Well, hybrids are a bit tricky. They are faster and stronger than normal vamps. And their bite is deadly to vampires (except the originals). And the only way to kill them is to cut their head off or rip the heart out. Stakes, silver, sun, … not working. Well, cutting off heads wouldn't be a problem for Blade. His primary weapon IS a sword, if I remember correctly. Ah, it's being so long … I could make a marathon tonight.
ReplyDeleteI said: not just any white oak. The tree that their mother used to turn them. That is why they burned it down (but the ashes of that tree on a special dagger thru the heart knocks them out). Too bad (or lucky) there was a sapling of that particular tree. And the one stake the gang is hiding is the last bit of that tree, the rest was burned. So, good luck finding a weapon to kill Klaus. And another problem: Kill an original and his entire bloodline dies with him. Ridiculous. The producers just made it up so they can keep Klaus.
How on Earth are Carmila and Meier Link from Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust not on this list? She has a SPACESHIP for gosh sakes! Where are the rules saying this has to be live-action vamps?
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Wheres Klaus Mikaelson oh well Damon is still badass
ReplyDeleteKatherine Pierce aka Katerina Petrova (Vampire Diaries)
ReplyDeleteNo vampire can beat Spike. His character arc is incredible! Plus, he proved to be a better fighter than his 'grand-sire', maintained his humanity enough to continue showing love, loyalty, and devotion, and fought to regain his soul for the woman he loves.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Spike was written for the fans. Originally, he was supposed to be in 4-5 episodes and then killed off. Also, the amount of twists and turns and changes to the character couldn't have been predicted by anyone (IMO). Spike was kept on the show and put through those changes strictly due to the brilliant acting job by James Marsters.
ReplyDeleteYour argument holds no weight because you can make a case for the fact that all the supporting characters on BtVS were there to serve Buffy. I mean, name a character (recurring) that wasn't there to serve Buffy. That's pretty much why they are called the supporting cast. Marsters just happened to have the acting chops to take the character through the maze of emotions that the writers gave him.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you only vote for "fangirl rage" as a lame way to get out of supporting your view or countering her view. That's cheesy, man.
ReplyDeleteI love Spike, but Damon Salvatore is my favorite!
ReplyDeleteEric Northman!
ReplyDeleteLike you said, he was supposed to die. He didn't because he was a fan favourite, James Marsters' acting or otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI already supported my view and countered. I don't need to go on and on about it when I've already done it.
ReplyDeleteCheerleaders are important to shows and characters but they make terrible objectivists.
Spike was a regular character, not a recurring character.
ReplyDeleteBut okay, let's throw in Anya. A previously recurring character that made regular, whose arc wasn't defined by Buffy. The argument can be made that it was defined by Xander, instead, but the character progressed beyond that relationship.
Spike's never did. He was Buffy's love interest, through and through, and only because Angel was off having a kid with Darla in LA and Riley did not work with the fans.
Spike's character progressed INTO his love for Buffy.You can't just make the statement that he is this way or that POST season 3 (as you did in a previous post). You can make arguments any way you want if you're going to be ignoring an entire season with that character. At the start he was only interested in Drusilla and what she needed. The progression to love interest had nothing to do with Angel or Riley ( Angel wasn't even a consideration, kid or not). It was simply Joss trying to screw (in a good way) with the viewers. He always thought it was better to do the opposite of what people expected. I am not always a fan of this kind of thinking.
ReplyDeleteAs for Anya, the argument that she was defined by Xander doesn't hold water. As hard as Xander tried, he never did change Anya or her opinions. Anything that Anya did (that had an effect on the story) was always intertwined with Buffy. It was obvious that Xander would never be able to deal with her being an ex-demon and the final result of that was that she went back to being a vegeance demon (which became a problem for...wait for it.... that's right, Buffy.
I've got to say, you make a lot of good, interesting points but you really should work on the condescending tone of your posts. It's a bit off-putting, bordering on insulting. Which is too bad cause like I said, you seem well-versed in all things Buffy and you make valid points.