"Will they or won't they?"
It's an everpresent phrase in the TV world, and it's been asked of soap opera supercouples and alien-investigating FBI agents almost since TV was born. But these days, the excitement that has to do with romantic tension between couples is being bounded less and less by the constraints of what the creators intended and more and more only by the limits of our imagination.
And when we see a chemistry between two characters that might, in some universe, blossom into romance... when we see a possible relation"ship"... ah, yes, it's that beautiful moment when a ship has been born!
Shippers are an increasingly vocal and influential part of the TV online fandom world. Some folks like shipping, some folks hate it, but the concept has joined the modern lexicon, and it's here to stay. So hi, I'm Tiptoe39, and I'm pleased to join the SpoilerTV team to present a weekly column on all things shipping - not just the latest news from various shows but also a forum and exploration of the phenomenon and its place in the world of TV and fandom.
Here are a number of issues I hope we can discuss going forward--
- Why do we ship? What makes a potential couple catch our eye? What are the elements of a good pairing, and why do some canon pairings fall flat where pairings the writers don't seem to see spark the fans' imaginations?
- Where does shipping come from? Has this emphasis on romantic entanglements always been around? What elements are new, and what are older than we might imagine? Is it just the word "shipping" that makes it new, or is it a modern phenomenon?
- How does shipping affect character development and analysis? Love is a powerful motivator, but does it lessen a character's choices and actions to say they were done out of love or attraction, rather than personal conviction or courage? Or does the presence of an unspoken love relationship make a character more well-rounded?
- Where are the boundaries for interacting with a show's creators? As the Internet continues to connect us all, and popular TV shows' creators and actors reach out through conventions and interviews, what's the proper role of the shipping fandom? Should there be an outright push for couples to become canon? How should the activities of the fannish world be represented in a respectful way? Is there room in the world for a dialogue between fans and creators that actually affects the content of shows? Why is talking to creators about shipping different than talking to creators about any other aspect of their show?
- What's the role of gender and sexual orientation in shipping? Contrary to popular opinion, not all ships are gay. There are a lot of male-female pairings that become very popular in the shipping world. Are they less taboo to talk about? Why, and should that be the way it is? Is it still shipping to want Elena to be with Damon rather than Stefan? What about wanting BSG's Boomer and Gaius together, though they were never romantically linked on the show? What makes it a ship? And why are same-sex ships so popular, anyway?
- Are shippers a "different kind of fan"? Do they have a place at the table when it comes to general show discussion? Does their expression of how they'd like to see a show go have less validity, or make show discussion less pleasant for fans who don't ship? Are they "watching the show wrong"? How do shippers and other fans coexist in this wild, interactive world of TV fandom?
- What about "ship wars"? It's often the case that different ships will find themselves at odds, even within the same fandom. Is there a utility to that discussion? Does the popularity of a ship you don't approve of make you uncomfortable? Why? In a segment of fandom in which freedom of expression and imagination is so important, why do rivalries and jealousies seem to come to the fore so often? Or is that the case with fandom writ large, and not just shipping?
If some of these issues got you hot under the collar, then we need you in the conversation. My personal goal is to effect a kind of communication where we all can feel welcome in the same community without feeling like we're being attacked for the way we enjoy TV or express ourselves. To that end, I'm going to do my best to make sure we have a respectful dialogue and no ships (or non-ships) are made to feel unwelcome. I will need you all to be honest with me, too, and tell me how to best moderate the conversation. So please, chime in below! It's a big conversation, but it is going to be a fascinating one!
What shipping-related topics would you like to see explored? Sound off in the comments!
Hey TipToe!
ReplyDeleteCongrats on your first post and welcome to the team :)
I do like a bit of romance between characters in my (mostly drama) shows, but sometimes they make it the main focus, and it gets boring and takes attention away from the ACTUAL storyline. Like in Arrow. They're letting Oliver, Laurel and Tommy's love triangle eat too much into the series. I like it to some degree, but it needs to be tuned down a little!
ReplyDeletelove your pic choices ;)
ReplyDeleteI think when someone likes a couple that is already established, this also counts as shipping... I identify myself as Delena shipper, even if they are officially together in s4...
And about ship wars... I'm in Supernatural fandom, Destiel shipper, and I have nothing against any other ship, but sometimes it gets horrible... The hate and sarcastic comments are just piling up (especially between hiatuses), until something goes wrong and suddenly there's the big explosion and insults from both parts... I wish this would stop and we'd all love eachother as family and respect every ship.
Ship wars are the stupidest thing that can happen to a fandom, I've seen perfectly fine fandoms ripped apart over people arguing about A/B being better than B/C and it is such a shame. Especially makes me roll my eyes when none of the ships have a chance of becoming canon. But yeah ship wars, do not engage in them people. If you want to ship a pairing then ship that pairing and if its not popular so be it go and write fic and make picspams and spread your love, do not shit all over some other pairing.
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of feelings about this subject it seems!
To go with some of the themes you suggested tippy, such as, "What makes it a ship?" I would like to discuss if there are there different types of ships and shipping. Is there a difference between, say, Kirk/Spock and Spock/Klingon Extra #6? Or is it all one in the same? (I apologize in advance if this comparison offends any Klingon Extra #6 fans.)
ReplyDeleteHe was my favourite Klingon!
ReplyDeleteI agree. I remember back in the days of LOST, the Sawyer/Kate vs Kate/Jack wars were totally insane ha
ReplyDeleteI'm looking forward to reading your column. I like many ships (Caskett, Jisbon, Karen/Derek)and hope to read a lot about them from you in the future!
ReplyDeleteOh god yes they were really bad, I mean I don't think having a love triangle on the show was a good idea it just made things so much worse!
ReplyDeleteso basically this is for Destiel fans?
ReplyDeleteOh here we go! Get ready...
ReplyDeleteThe same in Castle,can't even hold a conversation w/o someone swooning over them.That's all some people want to focus on, 'them', not as separate individuals anymore.
ReplyDeleteI'm so excited for this column! Shipping has been ignored for far too long honestly, and it's so HUGELY important to the fans, that I don't understand why! I'm glad that more and more news outlets as well as creators and writers are starting to acknowledge it, and its importance. :)
ReplyDeleteIf that's how you come away feeling about it, I'm not doing my job right. I want this to be a discussion for all shippers and non-shippers to understand each other and not feel like each other's existence is a problem. I hope you will be vocal on the threads and columns to help keep me honest and the conversation balanced. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteSo that's really interesting to me. The idea that romance interjected into a non-romance show, even if it's part of the creators' intention. is unwanted, intrigues me a lot. I hope we can talk more about that in the future.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for having me! I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes.
ReplyDelete"Major pairs" versus "rare pairs" is definitely something I'd like to go into in the future, as well as "OTP" shipping versus "multishipping." Thanks for the idea!
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad you wrote that article because all those ships, ship wars, canon ships, non canon ships, slash ships, femslash ships, etc. are making me really confused sometimes....
ReplyDeleteI'm a shipper. (and proud to be :D) I think I have a ship in most of the shows I watch (except comedy shows) and there are even some I watch firstly for a ship and secondly for the plot.... and I don't see why some people think it's wrong, that "shippers are the worst", "they're not really fans of the show", "they're destroying fandom" etc. I think shippers sometimes really make fandoms more alive I know they can be annoying and sometimes they really cross the line but they are not all like that. I'd like to think that now I'm one of the tolerant (but still hardcore :p) shippers... but I wasn't always that open minded mostly because I was younger and really more stupid :D
I remember when I was in the Dark Angel fandom (the first online fandom I've been in) I discover my first OTP (Max/Alec) and I really really didn't like Max/Logan so I was bashing that couple and I was probably a bit mean to poeple who liked them...(but never really really unrespectful) ok I was young and everything but when I think about it now I find my "past-self" a little stupid :p
So I was introduced to the first kind of ship wars (joy joy!...) : the war between two couples in a same show... and damn there are a lot of them : Buffy/Spike/Angel, Elena/Damon/Stefan, Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliette, Brook/Peyton/Lucas and millions more...
Honestly I think they create a lot of interesting debates on characters and relationships and I find them fun as long as they don't go out of line because that's the real issue : shipper who don't know where to stop and who became really agressive and insulting.
That's bring me to the second kind of ship war : the canon or non canon couples (and these times it concerne a lot of slash or femslash couples) It was really the thing that opens my eyes because now I've been on both side....
I was in the Supernatural fandom, Destiel was (still is) a huge part of it and I really didn't like it. I couldn't stand that couple and the shippers. I was maybe a bit harsh with them and I think I contradicted them even when their arguments were valid BUT like I said on the above I was never unrespectful. To be fair some of the Destiel fans (a small but loud part) were also really crazy and unrespectful with other people and even sometimes the actors and writters and that's not ok.... Those fans made me leave the SN fandom a little and then I just lost interest in the show so I left the fandom completly.
Despite all that I should have been way more tolerant and nice to the "kind" Destiel fans because now I ship a couple (Emma/Regina in Once upon a time) in the "same situation" as Destiel and the mean and intolerant people are really pissing me off and I realise how annoying it can be! They always find unvalid or hurtful arguments to trash the ship instead of just saying I don't see it and don't like it but ship who you want I'll ship who I want and everyone will be happy.... I mean I litteraly saw a site today just dedicated to trash and insult this couple..... and it's lame
I know that like in the Destiel fandom (and others), there are "dump" shippers who are always going to cross the line but a majority of every ships fandom are just nice and funny.
So I will end with this : For me ships are fun and I really think that they're the base of a lot of fandoms and if poeple (EVERYONE the shippers and the non shippers) were just a little more tolerant, nice and understanding it would be so much more amazing to be online :D
Feel free to agree or disagree! It's just my opinion
PS : I think it's the longest comment in english I ever wrote....I'm french so sorry for my mistakes
I respect the role of romance and romantic tension in drama. Love is a one of the most primal driving forces human have, and obstacles to love is the basis for some of the most wonderful drama in written and oral history. So, the concept of attacking a fandom for caring about romantic entanglements is to deny the power of the dramatic tension being produced onscreen and their purpose on the show in the first place. I dislike the idea that anyone interested in the romantic issues of a show can be dismissed as less engaged or with less valid of an opinion of all aspect of a show. And a surefire way to get me riled is to derogatorily label them "fangirls" and move on.
ReplyDeleteAll that being said, I do not support non-cannon ships. Fanfiction has it's place, but some fans who have become so engaged as to write their own versions sometimes forget that their versions aren't in fact part of the show. If you have to change a character's sexuality or family history or write an elaborate unfounded backstory, you are not respecting the show or the characters involved. Call them something else and fantasize about it outside of the show's fandom. All you are at that point is liking the looks of two actors together, not those characters.
Caveat--I'm probably only really a "shipper" in one show I watch and I watch a lot of shows with love triangles and will/they won't they pairs but most of them I'm happy to be along for the ride.
Honestly this will just be some big platform for all the non-canon pairings to try to dominate and "prove" that their ship should be canon and bully the canon ones. Shipping is what keeps me drawn to a show and so obsessed with it. I'm a Finchel shipper and shipping them is what keeps me watching glee and what made it my favorite show for 3 years. But this will just give something for Faberry fans to try and dominate and bully us, and of course it will be the same for other pairings and shows. But I am glad they recognize how important shipping is for TV watchers. I don't think viewers should have any say in what happens on the show though. You obviously first fell in love with the couple and characters the way the writers originally wrote them. The writers should only tell their story with a little bit of audience feedback.
ReplyDeleteI do have my ships, but I have to admit that I'm very uncomfortable with people breaking the fourth wall and berating showrunners or actors about their favorite pairing. Using your banner as an example, the way the Sterek or Destiel shippers bombard the people connected to the show with their shipper stuff makes me so embarrassed to be in fandom. I'm all for ship-and-let-ship, but I'd prefer to keep it within the fandom space with people who understand and appreciate the culture and the creativity involved.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things I'm going to talk about in a future column is why people ship. Is it so simple as having a sexual fantasy about two actors? Or is there more to shipping than simply that? If you dislike being derided as a "fangirl," is is possible that you are similarly discounting the origins and depth of shippers' feelings? When we start to talk about why we ship, I'd be very interested to get your response.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'm NOT going to do is try to get any non-shippers to become shippers. It is your mind and your choice as to how you prefer to enjoy the shows you watch, and that's part of the beauty that is TV fandom. So if at any point you feel as though you're not being treated fairly, please bring it up and I will do my best to make sure you feel as though you're a valid part of the conversation.
But I think there's a valid question about how interacting with a text, applying one's own point of view to it and asking what-if questions about an established character shows disrespect to the original, which is, of course, the foundation for all this what-iffing and therefore a springboard for a lot of creativity. And I do not agree that such creativity should be pushed out of fandom or placed in a separate space when it is, in fact, a valid part of "people enjoying TV shows," which is what we're all here for. Instead, I think there needs to be a way for people to inhabit the same fandom space without feeling marginalized or hated by others. Both shippers and non-shippers have this feeling, and I think it's stifling the conversation and leading to a lot of antagonism that doesn't have to be there.
I really look forward to your input as a non-shipper and I hope that, as a shipper myself, I can start to understand why it is you feel what you do about shippers. My goal is never to make people feel unwanted in a fandom; we both love TV, and I think that's great. Maybe we can find away to live together without hostility.
Definitely an emphasis on the cultural impact of slash shipping would be wonderful. It's not just "hey we want these girls or guys to make out, hootttt", it's about pushing for greater and (and most importantly) more realistic representation of same sex couples in the media, while challenging the insidiously heteronormative status quo.
ReplyDeleteHeterosexual pairings and their shippers get acknowledged by the show and the actors involved and treated seriously, often developing into relationships to bolster ratings and can become a focal point of the show or at least major series arcs, whereas slash pairing are generally treated as a joke if they are acknowledged at all, or it is said that 'we aren't that kind of show'.
Or even in the case of Once Upon a Time, a show that just last episode had the two straight leads in bed with each other, talking about having just had sex. But ask one of them about the possibility of a show having a lesbian pairing, specifically Emma/Regina?
And you get the insulting response of "This isn't Once Upon A Time in My Pants. Check cable".
All of this feeds into the cultural acceptable view that queer relationships are somehow 'other', or 'not family friendly', or only acceptable to exist in specific, proscribed, and typically sexless roles as supporting characters, only rarely as anything else.
Destiel, Swan Queen, Sterek, Rizzoli/Isles, Johnlock, Merthur, just to name a few... None of them are treated the same way in the media as any of the popular straight ships.
And don't bring Glee or Modern Family into this, because gay relationships should not be relegated to 'edgy teen dramas' and comedies, which is basically the only place they actually appear right now, and there are even bigger flaws with those depictions of relationships and queer characters that I'm not going to get into right now.
I hope you will stay active in the conversation and make sure that both canon-pairing shippers and non-canon pairing shippers are having a dialogue and not bullying each other. And the question of how much say viewers should have on canon is a really fascinating one, and one i'm hoping to address in detail. I look forward to your further comments!
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong i enjoy them together as a couple,but i still see them as individuals whereas with some not all only focus on them. And there is still two other characters Ryan and Havi that have even less screen time now because they are focusing more on Castle and Beckett.
ReplyDeleteWelcome!!
ReplyDeleteOkay, im go ahead trying to reply some of your questions, from my personal experience.
Why do we ship? I really don´t know why i ship. I don´t have always ships, not for all shows...but if im enough involved, its very possible i´d start liking one character more, feel more identified..whatever. Ships usually comes after that, because its easy to have the Tv character involved or probably involved in a relationship. I also seem to ship a pairing who has potential, or where i see potential, which doesn´t have to be the same. But i usually need something to start.
Where does shipping come from? But i remember i had my ships before they were called ships, before Internet. I think its been always around, but never had the "power" or the influence as they do now, thanks to twitter, websites...
How does shipping affect character development and analysis? I don´t think shipping affect character development. I think love doesnt´have to be less important than courage or another feelings that can motivate the character. If you character was already bad written, having a love interest won´t help, of course.
Where are the boundaries for interacting with a show's creators? Well, i think it should be fun, thats all. I think show creators can listen fans, but ultimately its his choice, and i think it should be.
And well, fans always want their shipping being canon, right? So, as long its respectful, i think all parts should listen each other.
What's the role of gender and sexual orientation in shipping? i dont know why same sex pairings are more popular, it beats me though my fave pairings have been M/M (atleast recently). I think anyway, shipping is also about freedom.
Are shippers a "different kind of fan"? I don´t think they should be, honestly. Maybe we tend to more deffensive about our pairing, more focused...but at the end, shippers and non shippers like the same show.
What about "ship wars"? Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Minor characters getting underused because a major pairing is getting all the screentime is not a new phenomenon to me... I used to watch soap operas, and I would always gag at how little I saw the characters I truly loved because the Big Supercouple was always on the screen mooning over each other. So I feel ya!! It's certainly a problem of balance in television writing!
ReplyDeleteThe main thing I'd want is to clarify that shipping isn't some isolated and distant thing from the actual show. Many people 'ship' because they see the potential in canon. It's not just randomly throwing two people together and keeping them separate from the show in the darkest corners of the fandom, as some people obviously think. If I see chemistry, love and devotion in canon, I'm going to ship those two people together, and by shipping I mean = wanting two people to enter a romantic relationship.
ReplyDeleteThere's definitely a question of "how much interactivity with the creators is too much"? And it's something I'd love to go into. You can bet that will be a column coming up soon!
ReplyDeleteThe role of shipping in the LGBTQQA community and their attempts to get better representation in media is a really interesting question. Certainly, pushes to see more non-heterosexual pairings in media is something that the equality community sees as extremely important, but there are drawbacks, I think, on both sides to making "shipping" a part of that. Which isn't to say it's a bad idea, necessarily, but I can see pitfalls. I'll be doing a lot of research and soliciting a lot of input for that column. :)
ReplyDeleteWell done in English! :D I think it'll be interesting to try to identify behaviors that fans think "cross the line." Some of them may be just a bit more universal than people at first will acknowledge. Definitely food for thought!
ReplyDeleteI think there are a few more questions to be asked in regards to shipping. For instance, why are some pairings wherein the characters aren't together in an explicitly romantic or intimate sense considered "canonical" while others aren't? What makes a pairing "canonical" anyway? Writer/producer/actor say-so? Fandom consensus? A blatant declaration from the characters themselves? Or is personal interpretation enough? If so, what legitimizes a person's interpretation of character interaction as "romantic" &/or "intimate?" What might make another person's interpretation illegitimate?
ReplyDeleteSo! Having said that, I'm incredibly happy that you're here writing this column, Tippy. I'll be happy to weigh in during many of the discussions. ♥
I would like to clarify as you seem to think I have a problem with "shippers." I don't. I have a problem with the word and it's current connotations. I think that audiences are supposed to become involved in the romantic entanglements on a show. In fact, as I said, dismissing people as "shippers" or "fangirls" is a disservice to engaged fans. However, non-cannonical pairings that aren't part of a show or that require changing a character to occur take "shipping" to a different discussion.
ReplyDeleteIMO "creatively" interacting with a show is all fine and good and valid. It is great that people are connecting with a show to that degree. But to insert your personal "creativity" into the generalized discussion of the "reality" of the show is a disservice to the discussion and the creative efforts of the show's writers, producers, actors, and crews. They are telling the story to us. Someone else's "what if" version of that story does not supersede what has *actually* occurred on screen. Hence why, I believe that alternative versions should have an alternative discussion space. Characterizing that as "marginalizing" a portion of the fandom is what makes it a negative. Once one has taken a show and added one's own spin, one has exited the show's fandom because one has exited the show and created something different. One ought not expect or require that other fans to validate that creative effort when it is in opposition to the creative efforts of the actual show's writers.
@twitter-15065840:disqus can I ask, what are your favourite ships, if it isn't a secret? :)
ReplyDeleteOne of the points of fanfic, fanart, RPing, etc, is to take plots & characters to places the shows haven't gone, probably won't go, or definitely will never go.
ReplyDeleteAnd see, this is why I want to discuss what constitutes a "canonical" pairing & "canonical" chemistry. What does that really mean? And who gets to decide? And why?
That's a very interesting and well-spoken point. It does raise a question for me about where the "line" exists between canon and non-canon, and at which point the discussion has to be had in a separate location.
ReplyDeleteIs "Elementary" out of bounds in Sherlock Holmes fandom, because it's John, not Joan? Should Shakespeare fans disavow "West Side Story"? If it's entirely possible that romantic moments could have occurred offscreen and are not discounted by anything seen onscreen, but nor are they explicitly point to, is that out of bounds for show discussion? Did Once Upon a Time fans refrain from speculation about Graham/Regina before it was shown onscreen that he was, in fact, sleeping with her?
And what does it mean to "validate" those efforts? Is that something you feel you are forced or pressured to do, as a non-shipper, simply by allowing them to exist within the same world and call themselves by your TV show's name? Can you find a world where a spoilery TV clip comes out, someone in the comments section says "AND THEN THEY KISSED LOLOLOL," and that comment can simply exist without eliciting a reaction from you?
I think this is just fascinating, and while I obviously come from my point of view, I really want to understand and learn more about yours. Because I think this is the ideal place to discuss it. Thank you for your continued and passionate engagement!
I don't really know why I ship, I shipped before I knew it was called thus (I called it slashing and femslashing and we had no straight couples, we were rescuing all the hidden same-sex ogglers).
ReplyDeleteBut with that more free definition proposed today by shipping, I can say I shipped Buffy/Spike and Max/Alec(/Logan) so I guess I don't consider sexual orientation to be the matter (although same-sex *is* an added turn-on). I went on to ship in the LOTR and then followed the rest of the TV series. And when I say the rest I mean probably 50 of them. Shipping leads to shipping communities which filter through across fandoms and probably help out some shows to get more audience (I'd have never watched Supernatural if it wasn't for Destiel nor Merlin without Merthur). It's about having something in common and being able to share it. As for those who smite, they're obviously arrogant humans just like you can find anywhere else, only this is the one outlet they pour all their angst in, so sometimes someone gets hurt, but I mean, like everywhere else, no?
I ship because of feels. Because I find some characters annoying and we read the subtext that (let's be honest) some writers playfully leave for us, because some actor will fool around with the idea of it (see the cast of the LOTR), because it's nice to settle our personal romantic anxieties upon someone else?
Shippers are fans that care about a different kind of details. [Although I never see someone who's just a canonical fan, it is as if either you're all in and embrace the ships or you're just a casual viewer; I'd like to meet non-shippers, I'm curious.] But shippers aren't just shippers, they're fans too.
I ship everybody, if someone has seen an 'obvious sign' and shows me, I'll sign in (well, except for poor old Samwise, never shall he be with Frodo), so I don't really get ship wars.
From the slash that I used to write about, gosh, 9 years ago now, to here today, I'd say I'm glad we still got ships strong-willing fandoms to stand. But that's just one (messy, non-native speaker) point of view.
What shipping means
ReplyDeleteA commentary by a Destiel shipper. I try to be as concise as possible (It probably won't work :D), since shipping means different things for different people.
For me shipping is not about sexual perversion, as people often try to tell shippers. Shipping is when you see chemistry, subtext, even text on the actual show between two characters, and simply become emotionally attached to them. You cry for them, you smile with them. You're breathlessly awaiting every scene that has these two characters in it. It makes you feel.
That is my personal interpretation and I'm also speaking from personal experience, of course. It doesn't mean that I'm constantly horny and want nothing but for the characters to get it on. I see what the show gives me and simply run with it.
Now, we ship because this particularly pairing means a lot to us, because we think these two characters can truly become happy with each other in a romantic way. That includes physical expressions of love, but also verbal. A simple meaningful gesture like stroking someone else's cheek can provide that, but also the three words that everybody waits for. I love you. Shippers look for love. Shipping is the same as the emphasis on love that media always put into their shows. There's hardly any show on TV that doesn't at least deal with the topic of romantic love once. It's human nature. And that means shippers aren't different from other fans, who see two characters and want them to be happy with each other.
As for character development and analysis. No, shipping doesn't affect the text directly, but it gives the showrunner a feedback on how fans interpret the way he constructs the text. That's why boundaries between showrunner and fans exists, but the showrunner needs to get feedback on his product. It's a producer/consumer relationship and if fans are not happy, then they won't buy the product. Simple. And character analysis can of course cloud someone's judgement when you write extensive episode analyses, but it doesn't have to. Always remember. There are different ways to interpret character interaction, but none is more valid than the other. Not unless the show actually makes clear that these characters get together in canon.
And finally, shipping is not bound by sexuality and the interpretation of sexual orientation for characters. People ship whatever they want to ship. But it is very very important to remember that same sex relationships are not in any way inferior to het-relationships. Shipping is nothing to be ashamed off and certainly not because the characters you ship are two male bodied people. They should be talked about and also brought up in letters, tweets and fan support.
Because shipping means love. And that's the most important thing. We want to spread love.
It's no secret! I'm a well-established "multishipper" and one of my favorite things to do is to imagine that spark between two characters who may not have gotten the chance to explore it onscreen. That being said, I ship absolutely every permutation of Sam, Dean, Castiel and Gabriel in Supernatural; I was a passionate shipper of Matt/Mohinder in Heroes days; I enjoy Steve/Danny from Hawaii 5-0 and a number of Teen Wolf pairings (Derek/Jackson is actually my guilty pleasure), and back in the day, I really loved Jack/Ianto and Owen/Tosh, as well as Gwen/Rhys. And I beleived in Peter/Olivia from day one of Fringe :) But that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. I also write original male/male romantic fiction, and I enjoy creating my own characters and watching their love stories play out. I guess that for me, finding the potential for romance is quite simply one of my favorite things to do!
ReplyDeleteGolly gosh, I am completely ecstatic about this!! Love love love this new column, as a writer of meta about the same topics I couldn't be more pleased to see a space dedicated to them in a place that's otherwise not related to shipping in particular. This is progress! And this is lovely. Something I'd like to see discussed is the relation of same-sex shipping to a demand for more same-sex couples in the media, pro-canon shipping and generally the connection between same-sex shipping and LGBT. It's a rather fascinating theme I think, I've enjoyed meta'ing about it a lot, and I think people would have some interesting things to say : )
ReplyDeleteDo some message naturally disappear or was mine too long maybe?
ReplyDeleteAs long as I'm not bullied by other shippers, I will gladly contribute. And the question of how much say should an audience have, is very is important and complicated. The writers trying to appeal other shippers for glee has really hurt the show in my opinion. The show was at its best ( season one) when it had no fandom influence. Anyway I wont elaborate too much. I'm sure you will begin to get into detail about it :) I honestly can't explain why we ship. I guess I've always considered myself a romantic. Romance has ALWAYS intrigued me and I've always wanted to see where these romances go and if they will last and be together. The moment I get hints a couple belonging together and having a romantic story, I ship and get attached. It's usually first couple I fall in love with and I ship them till the end. The only exception was with the vampire diaries. I was a Stelena shipper until the 19th episode when I realized Damon loved Elena. Been a hardcore Delena shipper since. With glee, I fell in love and felt the chemistry of Finchel from their first conversation and have shipped them ever since. Shipping is something unexplainable I guess. And everyone's perspective is so different. Like I don't see how anyone could ship Faberry or swan queen,but they are some of the hardest shippers out there. Crazy how our minds work and imagine things and are drawn to certain things :)
ReplyDeleteBut then again, if we do not provide our feedback and ideas to the actors/showrunners, how are they to know what we as an audience think of their work? It depends on the way you look at it, and the extent to which it is discussed. Some comments are just down right embarrassing, I know, but we need the constructive comments to exist.
ReplyDeleteI think you're doing your job right. I've been trying to understand the shipping thing for a while now, because like you said, it's here to stay, so I try to read things like this, when it's presented with different points of view, so this should be interesting to follow, as long as everybody is respectful with each other.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what is needed, so Thank You. I think that shipping has become such a big part of the sub-sections of tv shows that attempt has to made to properly try an understand why its happening more, or if it is just visibility making it louder?. I'd like to wonder Just what the knock on effects of it are, for example do fans over-step when they constantly write to TPTB about their ship over the established story lines, and just who is interpreting the show correctly anyway? Has there ever just been one way to interpret art/media in any form? The answer to that is pretty much 'no' and someone will argue with that proving my point? ;) So then what makes tv different that one interpretation is de-facto 'Canon' when the other the seemingly only 'silly' fangirls.
ReplyDeleteMy main thing however is the what the effects these things can be for the LGBT audience either as positives and negatives, and just why most of the pairings are some form of slash? Is there such a lack of good representation that fans have started to re-interpret their own. I believe there is, its certainly one of the main reasons I ship non-canon male/male and female/female pairings like crazy. So for me If there were more proper established drama relationships, and I don't just mean side characters or comic characters of the LGB, and T variety then the need to 'ship the sometimes really tenuous bromance's* becomes diminished.
Hello. My name is Riley and I'm a Destiel shipper. I'm gonna try and answer each of these Qs as shortly/accurately as possible:
ReplyDelete1.) Personally, I think everyone "ships" to a degree. For example, everyone who watches Castle probably spends at least a little bit of time thinking "Oh my god, when will Castle and Beckett just kiss already? It's obvious they're into each-other...". For me, shipping is an amplified version of that. It's when you find a romance between two people that speaks to you of a deeper level, so much so that you fall in love with the idea of these two people being in love. It generally doesn't have anything to do with wanting to see some "hot guys making out". It's about the beautiful emotional connection between two people, and shipping is just wanting that emotional connection to be recognized, expressed, and accepted.
2.) Shipping has existed as long as people have said "Why don't you ask him out? I think you two would make a cute couple!". Actual modern shipping has definitely evolved into something very specific and different, but the heart of it was always there.
3.) Shipping can cause people to look deeper into the emotions and story-line of a character. I think that shipping is a wonderful aspect of any fandom, and I hope that our voices can soon be heard and taken seriously.
4.) Personally, I believe that the shippers have the right to be heard and taken seriously. As a Destiel shipper, I constantly try and get word out there that we want to become canon. Its looking like we're almost there, and that is a wonderful feeling for me. If you want something to happen on a show, why wouldn't you try and make it a reality? It's not as if we are forcing the writers to do anything, just requesting/persuading. Generally, it;s in hopes to make the show better.
5.) I think gender and sexual orientation should have no role in shipping. If Castiel was in a female vessel, I would ship them. If Castiel was still in Jimmy, but Dean was "Deanna", I would still ship them. Love is love, and if you can see love between two people, gender/sexual orientation don't really enter into it. I think homo-ships are particularly popular because of the wonderful shipping opportunities that they hold! I have yet to find a romance, hetero or not, that is as epic and heartbreaking and wonderful as Destiel. Love is blind to gender.
6.) This question is actually kind of hard to answer. Yes and no. We are just as "good" of a fan, or a "real" of a fan as any other. However I think that being actively involved in shipping gives us a little deeper connection to the show or pairing. It's possible that shippers are more emotionally invested in the show, which sets us apart from other fans, but when it comes down to it we all love the same show. A fan is a fan.
7.) Ship wars are silly, pointless, and tiring. I think shipping is like sexual orientation: you don't choose it. I ship Dean and Cas, and if someone says to me "No, you're wrong, they aren't in love" I'm still gonna ship them just as hard as before. Nobody should shame someone for what they ship, because you can't really help what you ship. Shipping wars need to die out, because it makes everyone involved look petty and annoying.
I'm so glad that shipping is finally emerging from the dark corners of it's respective fandoms. Keep calm and ship on!
I'm sure I don't know, guest! Give it another shot? Sorry about that!
ReplyDeleteIt truly is crazy how our minds work! And if you feel you're being bullied at any point, just holler at me and I'll do my best to help. *waits for the call of "TIPPPYYYYY!!" from across the internet * :)
ReplyDelete"And everyone's perspective is so different. Like I don't see how anyone could ship Faberry or swan queen"
ReplyDeleteYour totally right everyone is different.... I really don't get the Faberry thing but yet I ship Swanqueen...
I suppose if there's gonna be a discussion about things already and not just suggestions for discussions...I think a big part of shipping is sexual exploration via one's fantasy. especially young female fans tend to ship M/M ships because it feels safer, when sex is maybe still this big scary thing, there are no women involved with who you know you would identify with and tbh, especially as a woman who likes men, the thought of two men together is quite appealing. Same with two women for men. And of course, a reason why one ships two characters is, most of the time, the interaction between two characters. (people will most likely identify with one of the two characters on some level as well) And let's face it, male characters often get the big-end of the writer-stick. The beauty of shipping is also that it doesn't have to have anything to do with canon when it comes to actual on-screen romance, it's about exploring what the person themself wants to see and enjoys. (I'm kind of an old-school shipper in that I never had a need for my 'ship' to become canon) So yes it also opens the door for people with less conventional seualities who want to see a part of themselves in their favourite characters. Hope my ramblings made any sense!
ReplyDeleteIt's the stuff like #4 that makes me yearn for the old days when we shipped for ourselves and had fun with our friends instead of trying to delude ourselves into thinking we can convince people running these shows to do what we want.
ReplyDeleteThis is a huge and ripe discussion area and one I'd love to talk to a psychologist or five about before I dared write about it. You know, a friend was telling me the other night that men and women view porn differently - men like to insert themselves mentally into the action, so watching lesbian porn is something they enjoy because in their mind, they have two women all over them. Whereas woman want to become one of the characters they're watching, so gay porn holds less appeal for them in general because they don't identify with one of the characters. Now, conventional wisdom about sexual practices aside, this brings a whole new and interesting reason to why people might ship. But I know lesbians, virgins, married women (halloo), people in multiple relationships, and yes, even straight men who ship M/M pairings. So there's definitely no one-size-fits-all solution, but certainly there are trends that are worth exploring!
ReplyDeleteI have had a lot of discussions with shippers who yearn for those days as well. But I do think the dynamic nature of the Internet and the way everything is getting more interactive is a bit of a natural fit for this desire to connect, and it's not entirely surprising that people want to express their feelings and have a voice. When we have shows like American Idol, where the audience literally picks the winner, it's hardly a stretch to imagine folks wanting to have more of a say in their entertainment. Whether it's "delusion" or not is up to the creators/showrunners and their desire to listen, I suppose!
ReplyDeleteC'mon though, stuff like "we're almost there!" re: Destiel just makes us in fandom look stupid to the outside world. My non-fandom friends would read these comments and be face-palming all over the place
ReplyDelete"One of the points of fanfic, fanart, RPing, etc, is to take plots & characters to places the shows haven't gone, probably won't go, or definitely will never go." --This is noncannonical and you realize it is because in the abstract you acknowledge it. So be honest with yourself and I think you will find the line.
ReplyDeleteOh definitely, I am of course overgeneralising, there's always exceptions to every 'rule' :) I guess I just come from a standpoint where, as a 'fangirl', I sometimes see something like 'oh you just want your hot male characters making out' and at one point I just decided to say 'and what if I did?'. So I guess I'm always just kind of a bit defensive when it comes to women and how they're allowed to express their sexuality ;) And I suppose with actual visual gay porn it is not really that easy to insert yourself into that fantasy as a woman...I also don't know any woman who actually WATCHES porn, most of them just crack up at the silly plots. But to each their own I guess. I wish you good luck with your work here!
ReplyDeleteThis is my perspective too, yet there is also a wide segment of people who really do just throw two or more characters together, probably out of curiosity, to see how the dynamics work. If, per se, a really minor character catches someone's interest, and they proceed to create a fiction around that character which brings them into hitherto unprecedented contact with the main characters, that could spark off a whole series of relationships, platonic and romantic and sexual! Or, perhaps, two well-known characters at odds, thrown together in a fan work, in common cause or circumstance, just to see how they would work around their differences and come to a new understanding and respect! These are also pretty valid and prevalent shipping choices. :)
ReplyDeleteOf course I agree with you in every sentence you wrote. As you have said, I don't ship for the sex either. Sex is the less important part, for me, even when in a relationship is an important part (not the most important one, i should clarify).
ReplyDeleteI already said this multiple times on my blog, but I will repeat it: I ship people in love. It doesn't matter the gender, it doesn't matter anything at all, as in real life it doesn't matter either. I see a guy and a girl in love and I feel attached with them (as in multiple examples I can give to you, such as Kenshin/Kaoru, Monica/Chandler, Maggie/Glenn, Saywer/Juliet...) and I ship them. I see two girls in love with each other (as in Michiru/Haruka case, for instance) and I ship them. I see two guys in love with each other (such as Yukito/Touya, for instance) and I ship them. It's not such a big deal to me.
I am straight, I like dudes, I don't have a sexual kink on two guys having a relationship... it's simply as I saw them in love and I, logically, want them to be happy, because I've an attachment with them and I want their well-being.
Sometimes people underestimate shipping, when it's something extremely simple.
And, in Dean/Cas cas, I ship them because of the same reasons: I see them in love with each other, I interpret all the subtext (and text) they share in the show that way, and (in caps) I DON'T FEEL ANYTHING IS WRONG ABOUT IT. Why shouldn't I?
Shipping is love, and love is never wrong.
Bless this post.
ReplyDeleteBut there is a difference between shows like American Idol and Supernatural or Castle. The whole point is for viewers to vote and pick on AI, but to me it does a diservice to the show runners if they are not to be allowed to go with what they want. They are the professionals who are getting paid to write a show. I want to see what they do, not what the fans want.
ReplyDeleteI used to be a multishipper because I was always interested in different interpretations of various character interactions and how they would play out in situations outside of canon where their relationship would be a bit different, with consideration to their personality in canon of course.
ReplyDeleteEspecially if a series had characters who have a sort of a sexual tension between them or some romantic hints that could both be taken either way but the show itself didn't explore them. I like that there's all kinds of different genres in fanfiction itself, as it then offers an exploration of a relationship ranging from a friendship dynamic to a sexual one.
Now my shipping has narrowed down to one pairing but the principle stays the same. It's simply an interpretation of canon that I feel is valid and is definitely not rooted in fetishization of homosexual couples, it's not always a homosexual couple being shipped after all, and it's definitely just a matter of you see it or you don't. Also, I don't like to be insulted individually because of this or see a group I belong to be insulted because they "do that shipping thing". It's high time to dispel the wrong idea people have of us.
Absolutely, that's probably the main reason people start shipping, they want to explore relationships that weren't given a chance in canon. My initial comment was probably reactionary -- there were several online articles about Supernatural in the last couple of days and lot of people expressed their wishes for Dean and Cas to become canon. Needless to say, there were rude comments on how "shipping should only stay in fanon" like it's some kind of dirty little secret that shouldn't be talked about. The term has been thrown around as an insult, shaming people out of talking about it, when in reality most people only want the potential of a relationship explored in canon and there's nothing wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteThere is something that caught my attention quickly, reading the questions above: "And why are same-sex ships so popular, anyway?" I feel I need to comment on this. It is NOT that same-sex ships are more popular. I can guarantee even that they are pretty much the same as hetero couples when it comes to popularity (not to say that same-sex ships are actually less popular than hetero ships imo since het ships don't seem to bring the controversy that same-sex ships bring). So no, it is not that same-sex ships are more popular; it is that same-sex ships are too often dismissed as a 'crazy fan-girl sexual fantasy' and we need to clarify, REALLY clarify, that our connection to the ship is not a 'wet-dream' but a valid opinion born from the characters and storylines. It's the same as wanting a male and female character to get together, the only exception being that both characters happen to be the same gender. I ship Supernatural's Dean/Castiel because of the show. The characters' interactions are such that make me see them as a potential romantic couple. Not because they are 'hot together' or sexy or whatever; I want them together because of all they've been through together. Because I understand they need and complete each other and that they can find happiness in each other. I see it fair to their characters for their relationship to finally be acknowledged as a love relationship. The thing is, it all comes down to the characters and how they act around each other. And to me, it is very clear that these two in particular share something that's very special, very unique, and beautiful. Being both men should NOT be an impediment for these two to be made into a canon romantic couple, and it should NOT be a reson not to ship them or to not see them as a romantic pairing. And as I said, it's not that same-sex ships are more popular; it is that our ships get 'attacked' or dismissed as fantasy that has no basis on the show and we need to clarify our reasons to ship so much more than hetero ships; we have defend our same-sex ships so much more. Like, I also ship Patrick Jane/Teresa Lisbon, but I can freely comment on it and rarely ever (well, NEVER) get into any type of controversy because of shipping them. Because they are man/woman. Now, if I comment on how much I'd like Dean and Castiel to kiss already or how much I think they love each other, there is ALWAYS someone trying to 'correct' me with 'yes, they love each other as brothers' or 'they're not fags' or 'they're just friends' see? When it comes to same-sex ships, non-shippers are pretty much always trying to push that the ship is not valid because they're both men or both women, and there is always such a controversy and a 'battle' anytime a shipper voices their love and support for the ship. And that's just sad. We also have to voice our opinion on same gender ships so much more because the heteronormativity in the media makes it so much harder - if not impossible - for the ship to be validated in canon.
ReplyDeleteLets agree to disagree, I think we have the right to tell the writers how we feel the show could seize opportunities and improve character development! It definitely helps when we are vocal (ex: Misha saying that him, Jensen, and the writers recognize that Dean and Castiel are in love)
ReplyDeleteMisha saying that him, Jensen, and the writers recognize that Dean and Castiel are in love
ReplyDeleteOh boy lol. Honey.
I'm not sure what you mean by "lol, honey"??? I'm just stating a fact :D Here you go: http://lurea.tumblr.com/post/34536825294/meetngreet-dean-loves-cas
ReplyDeleteWanting characters with opposite sexual orientation, and/ or those that are closely related to have sex/fall in love is a sign of mental illness.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I get how professionals and fans are such separate entities. What if the way the show runners are going is the same as those fans that see their ship sailing? Even if TPTB aren't explicitly saying that to keep suspense, or if a group of fans are equally passionate against the ship. Storylines are often planned well in advance particularly the romance ones. They are also often kept to subtext till actual text appears as the 'pay-off' moment. So is it a disservice being negative to those fans that maybe are seeing well in-advance what the show runners are doing, and wanting to be publicly positive about it? Sometimes this 'being positive' can go to far, and I do cringe at certain campaigns sent to TPTB, even for ships I have.
ReplyDeleteHowever ultimately the show runners don't have any real need to follow these ramblings unless it is already going that way, and in that case the positively can only be well positive. The people who don't like this direction shout 'fan-service' ect especially if a pairing is uber popular one that becomes "canon" but surely its popular for some kind of reason, and would more then likely become canon because TPTB have put stuff in that can be read in that way?
What Shipping Means -
ReplyDeleteI think there's this common misinterruptation that shippers (the ones in slash shipping get this a lot anyway) that it's about sex or some kink you have and it's not.
Acting is about chemistry and so is shipping. If your main characters don't have chemistry then no one is going to watch a show about them falling in love or such. Take Teen Wolf (Allison/Scott) for that. If Posey and Crystal didn't have such great chemistry the show wouldn't be nearly as good as it is, I simply wouldn't watch it.
Also, Society (and our own romantic experiences) has taught us that there are simply things that go with relationships. Like an urge to protect the ones we care for or trying to stay close to them in some way. (This is actually why I ship Fushimi/Yata from K)
There's also things we've been taught to think about as romantic - like excessive touching or admiration of anothers body. Now while I don't believe you can't do those things platonically (it's a big argument in the Homestuck fandom as to what is Platonic (or pale) touching and when that crosses into romantic (or flushed) touching) it's important to recognized when characters cross that boundary.
I feel like there's another side of shipping that needs to be expressed to and that definitely the friendship or "brotp" kind. Which, I feel, mainly revolves around realizing that although these people don't have "romantic chemistry" they've got something in them that would help the other, make them a better person or just be extremely there for them and someone they could trust.
Just like Romantic ships, brotps have something that we base them off. It's not something that we just look at and go "OH MY GOD THESE ARE MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS THEY SHOULD TOTALLY BE BEST FRIENDS."
Noooooo. Frankly, I'd be appalled if those words ever came out of someones mouth or (in a technological sense) fingers.
I didn't start Teen Wolf with the impression that Lydia and Stiles would ever be friends. But when I was watching it, I realized that Lydia needed someone who she didn't feel she had to put on any kind of act around and I think Stiles (When he got over his crush) would be the perfect person for that. Likewise, I think she would be good for him to just listen to those "smart people" facts or help translating insane amounts of Latin. There's a connection there, but it's not one I have ever thought of romantically.
Okay, i'm done now. I'm not sure this all came out right sadly. I'm very bad with words
Yes...of course what's fan-created is fan-created. What I'm saying is that non-canonical fanworks are a huge part of fandom. It's basically not going away, & I don't see why it's so important to separate the parts of fandom, to insist that they play in their own corners. Fandom has, for as long as I've participated, has always been a mixture of discussion & exploration of canon, & fan-created non-canonical fiction, artwork, role-playing, etc. Why now separate this amalgam?
ReplyDeleteNow you are arguing a completely different point--not what constitutes "cannon" but why can't cannon and non-cannon exist simultaneously. My response to your new point is above, but to summarize: it is because they are separate identities. One is the reality of the show and the other is outside of the show. They deserve separate threads because while everyone starts out from the same place discussing what actually occurred on screen, not everyone respects a fan-created fiction as it has no authority. And the tendency of those fans invested enough to create their own alternative show is to try and ground that fiction in the show and believe that their version should be The Version moving forward without recognizing their personal stake in the equation and the ad hoc evidence they are employing. I commend those who wish to engage with a show by writing about it, but the expectation that in a fandom discussion of the show, I should validate that creative choice or even be aware of or acknowledge that creative choice over the actual show is a nonstarter for me. Baseline is reality.
ReplyDeleteI think that's the thing I hate the most! I support a lot of non-canon ships and it's true that sometimes the fans go to far with the actors or the writters.... I remember in the OUAT fandom when someone tweeted Ginnifer Goodwin about swanqueen, her answer was a little odd (but kinda funny) so some SQ shippers started to almost insult her.....That was really really not cool. But then there's was too a really nice interwiew of Lana Parrilla where the interwiewer asked her about SQ and it was really well asked and not embarrassing so her awswer was really honest and respectful and that is how thing are suppose to be :)
ReplyDeleteI think we have the right to ask about anything but not harass ;) I mean (again in the OUAT fandom) a lot of fans and medias ask actors and writters about Hook/Emma, Emma/August etc. and even if some poeple thinks it's annoying no one finds this embarrassing. So why couldn't they ask about Regina/Emma, Mulan/Aurora,....
That's a little harsh....ok I really don't like incest ships and I find that a little disgusting but shipping poeple with opposite sexual orientation is not crazy....
ReplyDelete^This Exactly.
ReplyDeleteI understand that some people go far as even try to contact the showrunners and everything, and that this is a little extreme, but it is important for the people to express their love and invesment on a ship, especially if it has canon potential but for whatever reason is not likely to become canon. In this instance it is especially important that fans express that there is great love and demand for that to happen in the show. Fans should be allowed to express what they want to see in a show, why not? Especially since we are basically paying the actors and showrunners' salaries buying their product. We should express our love for the ship in a way that the people involved in the show know that there is demand. But yes, there are limits, like, i wouldn't go to Jeremy Carver and start telling him 'you have to make destiel happen!' because then that's like pressuring them, but what I do is this, whenever I get the chance to comment on a video or poll or this type of articles and columns, I do, because you never know if there is a chance someone from the show will read and see how much people are interested in seeing the relationship happen in the show. This is especially important for me in a ship like Dean/Castiel because it has everything in its favor right now, currently in the best position to be explored in canon. The showrunners need to be aware that people are okay with it, that people love it because of what Dean and Cas are and what they have built for years, and that it is because of the nature of their characters and the story that there is demand; that it is not a joke or a porn fantasy.
ReplyDeleteMy comment was deleted :D
ReplyDeleteMy first ship was Starsky & Hutch on the original TV series. I was way too young to care about whether they slept together so it was definitely not about sex. But they were partners and best friends and they loved and trusted each other more than anyone else in their lives. What human being doesn't want to have that partner with whom they can make a difference in the world? What hero doesn't benefit from having someone who makes them better in some way and gives them the strength they need to save the world? Whether it's romantic or sexual has become more of an issue as acceptance of the variety of sexual orientations expands in our culture, but the starting place has always been love. And the love can be canon even if the show/creators/writers/actors don't take the characters to the bedroom.
ReplyDelete