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POLL : What did you think of Fringe - An Origin Story?

3 Nov 2012

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84 comments:

  1. Afino3 November 2012 at 02:19

    So, is Peter the "first Observer"?


    I feel so bad for Olivia. All she wants to do is be normal again and Peter is going to be this cold, heartless, emotional Observer-like bad man.

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  2. Totallyaddicted0053 November 2012 at 02:21

    It was great...they are all great I loved every emotionally charged scene these actors are amazing! Howerver I am mad that Peter put the observer tech in his brain WTF is gonna become September now as some have theorized? I really don't want that!! NO PLEASE!!!! Olivia can't loose another someone that she loves!!! Peter, you have to get that out your gonna die or worse become the very think that killed your daughter!! Tell Olivia and Walter and they will get it out of you. Ps. little worried that Astrid is in the line of fire next week from the promo. Cool Peter is getting observer skills but the look in his eye whe he beats the observer tells me that he did not tell liv and the longer that damn chip is in his brain the longer he is at risk, get it out!! I don't like that. That is why I gave it 7 of 10! I needed a better outlook for them on this epi now im just worried. Love the Olivia scenes and emotions Anna rocked it!! Peter so good too, I just don't like the action of installing the chip as said previously. You coulda crushed it and "went home." Love family on the tape of polivia and little etta adorable.

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  3. Ben Carpenter3 November 2012 at 02:25

    "Olivia can't LOSE another someone that she loves!!!" there fix'd

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  4. SAMURAI_ex_ninja3 November 2012 at 02:37

    I am soooo worried about Peter! I definitely did not expect him to put the chip in his own neck! And without consulting anyone first? What is that? He doesn't even know what the thing does and he doesn't even care for Olivia or Walters opinion... And clearly the thing effects him, as we saw in the promo.
    Great episode though! I loved how Olivia finally made strides to cope better, rather than shut people out. Too bad Peter wasn't there for that... Can't wait to see what happens next week! Especially with the chip thing in Peter!

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  5. lichen26413 November 2012 at 03:06

    I can't believe Peter did that... Wow... So is this why September saved Peter as a child? Is this why "the boy is important"? Because he's the first Observer?

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  6. Ricky Terry3 November 2012 at 03:07

    I don't think he will be emotionless. I think he'll just be able to do the things they do now. I believe he is now what I'd like to call weaponized.

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  7. cortexifan3 November 2012 at 03:08

    Epic! nuff said!

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  8. Ricky Terry3 November 2012 at 03:11

    I don't think he is the first Observer. He is utilizing their own tech against them. It's not like you can pass that neck thingy down through genes. but what I got from this is that without this thing, Observers are basically like us but without emotion or "Love".

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  9. magnutude3 November 2012 at 03:30

    Weaponized Peter... I like that. He now "knows what he didn't know before", and is also really pissed off about it, amongst other things... lol

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  10. ShatteredOne3 November 2012 at 03:43

    I really hope that Peter doesn't lose himself with the Observer tech in his brain, hopefully he'll just become Peter the Powerful for a while then save him from it. Keep Olivia/Peter together and alive!

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  11. Brandonrowe143 November 2012 at 03:47

    That last scene was crazy!!!! I have never screamed so much at a TV before. "What is he doing? NO!!!! WTH are you thinking dude!?!?!" I hope they don't turn him into a tragic villain. That last scene from the promo should be interesting. If it works well with Peter they should do that to the rest of the resistance. lol. It seems like these guys can't go a single episode without messing with one of the Bishop's brains. Haha. Great episode!!

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  12. Brandonrowe143 November 2012 at 03:49

    I am beginning to think that is possible. Why would he do that?

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  13. lichen26413 November 2012 at 03:50

    I hope you're right. I'm just hoping that tech doesn't shut his emotions down. We don't know how they became so emotionless...I was mostly guessing that they became dehumanized and conditioned over time...but we don't know what that thing actually does and everything it does. I really do hope you're right though and that it just makes him able to do the same stuff the Observers can without turning him into one. Either way definitely interested to see where this is going...

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  14. DarqueMode3 November 2012 at 05:27

    Decent episode, but I am so over Olivia in emotionally broken mode.

    At least Peter is weaponized again. Loved him when he went dark on the Shifters and this time the idea of Peter 2.0 going dark on the Observers is even more exciting!

    Soon as I saw the sub-dermal implant I knew Peter was going to use it on himself. Walter may be the tech theorist, but Peter likes being hands on with tech. In his current state of mind that implant was irresistible to him.

    It was interesting and nice to see the "Resist" posters with Etta's image on them, but it made me laugh out loud honestly. How silly is it to put up dozens of posters in one tiny alley? Seemed like such overkill and only done to make an impression on Liv. *shrug*

    I understand they needed an episode to grieve and deal with anger issues (or let fans deal), but with so few episodes I simply will not enjoy ANY episode that does not push the plot forward a bit more. Over all this was just an "good" episode for me.

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  15. DarqueMode3 November 2012 at 05:32

    Agreed.
    I do not see Peter being emotionless at any point for the rest of the series. His emotions are what fuel him at this point. He will not be calm until the Cueballs are stopped or destroyed. That is his sole mission in life right now.

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  16. Jacki Whitford3 November 2012 at 07:18

    The first thing I thought was the movie Underworld and the first hybrid vampire/werewolf. Peter is not the first Observer, but maybe he is the first Observer/Human with emotions hybrid. Peter knew after the last discussion with the Observer he needed to level the playing field and sticking that tech in his head should do the trick. But we did not see him analyze it first, which makes me wonder does he have any idea what what happen to his mind, body and soul. I would hate to see Peter lose his humanity or even worse die. I am expecting by the season finale Etta returns in some timeline reboot. I guess we will eventually see Nina and Broyles (again) but I think with those two characters it is probably a show budget issue.

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  17. K C3 November 2012 at 07:55

    I can't help but think of that photo before S4 aired where Josh Jackson dressed up as an Observer. Was that possible a hint of things to come?

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  18. Athinaxy3 November 2012 at 08:00

    How can he be the first Observer, just because he took some piece of tech from one of them?

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  19. prpleight3 November 2012 at 12:03

    Is Peter about to do what I think he's about to do? Uh Oh. I really really hope not.


    That is NOT a good idea. Not at all.


    You know, None of the self operations I've ever seen involved the person cutting so near the spine.


    my mind's a wee bit blown. Gonna vote awesome, give it a bit of time and re-watch. :-)

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  20. Jim Fels3 November 2012 at 12:27

    Well, I do think you're right. I think that's what the episode title actually refers to. The original Observers went back in time to observe their beginnings, and so far we have had no idea what that meant. They were SO interested in the Fringe team that they just have to be part of their origins.


    Peter using tech from the future to create that future is the kind of ''paradox'' that the show's writers have done before, so I don't see why this wouldn't be possible. I don't think Peter will become bald and emotionless, but he will be the reason the future Observers exist.

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  21. overandback3 November 2012 at 13:49

    Two parents dealing with a terrible loss. I have a feeling that Olivia will be pulling herself out of her depression soon. Peter is a different matter. Twice an old saying about digging two graves when going for revenge was mentioned. By a resistance fighter and the Observer. Now that he has implanted the device he took from the Observer. Who knows what'll happen in the end. At the same time the worm hole has to be destroyed. Walter seems to be the one who's calm and seems entirely rational now. There's a lot to think about while waiting for next weeks episode.

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  22. nellymendezcolon3 November 2012 at 13:54

    ..these episode was a over charge of emotional response but pete decision to became a fake-hybrid .observer,.,ouch.,ouch will became the most dangerous vindictive killer of her daughter .

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  23. laura33413 November 2012 at 15:04

    I get what your saying about Olivia. It is good we are seeing another side of her,and that she has grown as a person,wanting to go through the grieving process with Peter. But yeah,with so few episodes left we need the focused and determined Olivia back. I love her character but in S3 she spent many episodes unhappy,same in S4,now this.I'm not saying she shouldn't be grieve,but she needs to be do both like she has always done..i think she needs to do this now more than ever,if only for her daughter!

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  24. laura33413 November 2012 at 15:14

    I agree with you and Darque! Can you imagine after all this Peter would become like them,never happen. As as Darque said his sole mission is to stop the Cueballs!

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  25. laura33413 November 2012 at 15:22

    I always thought of them w/o emotion or love that's why September and August were the 'odd' Observers..I hope we find out why September was different before the series ends,he was too important in this series to not have it addressed.

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  26. laura33413 November 2012 at 15:40

    This device Peter implanted himself with makes me wonder if he will now be able to read other people,and if he can now read the Observers? I really cannot wait to find out what this will do to him and for him? Does he now know the 'PLAN', will this devise make him strong,like the Observers are? I also wonder if he will be able to have it removed,or if tried will it kill him,so many questions!


    Loved Walter in this episode,'Abner,why did you leave that there in the first place' one of the few times he made me smile,that whole sequence was funny,if you missed it go back an replay it,it will make you laugh!


    I already spoke about Olivia,lets hope next week we see the strong,focused Olivia we all know and love! Geesh,i just cannot get over what Peter did with that device.I wasn't disturbed by what he did to the Observer,taking it out,wanting him to feel the pain,knowing he would suffer,you can't blame a parent for that....but then again....


    So does Peter now know what he didn't know before?

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  27. Lou3 November 2012 at 15:42

    I really loved this episode. Increasingly I feel like the season is about the nature of humanity and the burden and benefit of having emotions. Last week Peter being sentimental and getting the necklace for Etta is what ultimately put the team on Widmark's radar and led to the devastating death. This week Peter's emotions are what fuelled him to take revenge but also misread what the Observer was thinking. The Observers are winning so far because they are emotionless but becoming like them probably isn't the answer.

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  28. celine3 November 2012 at 15:51

    I like that episode, I really enjoyed seeing dark Peter again. I'm just wondering if he's gonna lose his humanity after inserting that tech in his neck. In the promo for next episode we see him looking at an image of Etta and telling Liv that he just needed to see her. So I'm wondering if he starting to stop feeling and needs to see the image of his daughter to help him feel again...As for the "peter is the first observer " theory I don't understand how that's even possible.

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  29. Totallyaddicted0053 November 2012 at 17:12

    sry was typing fast

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  30. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 17:40

    Sorry late to the party, having a really bad day.

    Thought this one was GREAT!

    Plenty of allusions to Peter and the Machine with a cube and "a box" (IMO hinting at again that everything stems from William Bell,-6:02 A.M - Nina Walter notice Machine "Bell's signature")

    I always thought that most things we experience including Fringe events are all 'steps' repeating in the time lines of how the Observers were ever created. Peter and the Machine, I always felt was a BIG one, as it was about "controlling reality" by being connected to technology and now it seems a juxtaposition as Peter has plugged himself in.

    It's clear he is now in the role of Walternate and/or the roles of all Walter's pasts. It's clear that LOVE is the key again, as perhaps Peter will prove that "he is better than his father" by not completely loosing sight of what he loves because of his loss. However, even though Mr. X seems to be William Bell in every time line, since it is his beliefs and tech pushing for the death of Olivia, it is the Walters that have their hands on the trigger, and so could Peter now be the one to pull that trigger?????

    I am wondering if next weeks episode title reflects some other future the Observers are coming from and not the red universe..I think next week could be Walter's sacrifice.

    I was glad to see Olivia cry and now maybe she will finally fight again for Peter and saving him...

    As some of you know, s4's finale was falsely given as "End Game", before we received word that it would be "Brave New World"...

    But it reminded me of Alias (As The Cube, Orchid, and Mueller Device, along with the horizon were apart of Rambaldi's "end game') and the Mueller device, especially since the Observers may operate at time like "Bee Hive Mind"...In Alias it was this Orchid elixer that made the Bee's hostile and eventually people...This device may be the thing that is keeping the Observers from feeling....If it would telepathic and provides an "a ghost network" between Observers that perhaps Peter will change their emotions or Olivia and Walter will have to find a way to modify a single source, a queen bee, as it were....



    Thought this one was a GREAT turning point.

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  31. Ricky Terry3 November 2012 at 17:51

    My theory: Peter will meet September for September's (linear) first time soon. September will see that Peter is this badass that has taken their tech and turned it against them. He will be curious. That is one thing all Observers are is curious. He will want to find out why Peter has done such a thing, and why he is not going silently into the slaughter like everyone else. I believe he will find out via all his time travel that we got to witness over the course of the series.

    In other words September is walking around right now in 2036 as one of the bad Observers, because 2036 is September's past. He will meet Super-Peter before he ever decides to time-travel into Peter's past. This will be the "why" of September watching Peter for all these years. When he sees what Peter and Walter and Olivia have had to go through, he will change his perspective on humans, particularly these humans.

    Thoughts?

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  32. DarqueMode3 November 2012 at 18:08

    Yep I hoped the death would be the turning point for Olivia and she would find her inner strength again instead of shrinking back into an emotional shell.

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  33. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 18:22

    I slightly disagree. I think being hooked up to machine and dealing with death (AGAIN as this parallels Peter and 'the machine') is meant to be a struggle...


    Be Better Than Your Father (Walternate)

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  34. WJames Xavier3 November 2012 at 18:32

    Brillant. I like it. It fits. "The boy is important"

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  35. laura33413 November 2012 at 19:00

    I need some time to think about this.I think Peter changes the observers,but i don't believe he is the first Observer and that is why September...Oh my thoughts aren't clear yet.I have to go out to the store before it closes,i'll be back!

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  36. TayaP73 November 2012 at 19:01

    I really think it's not healthy to have so much emotions at once - I am shaken, I am sad, and scared and stirred. I'm dying to see how it's all going to end (crying already). This season's just boiling up, and it's doing it pretty darn amazing so far.

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  37. Ricky Terry3 November 2012 at 19:20

    I think you may have misunderstood my theory. I think by Peter putting that thing in his neck he will run into September and know him, but like September from A Brave New World pt1, this September will not have met Peter yet. He will not have time-travel to Observer him yet. This meeting, however it happens, will cause September to want to go back to the past to keep an eye on him, thus resulting in a change of mind for September, who will then eventually give Walter the plan for stopping them.

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  38. tsavonglah083 November 2012 at 19:32

    Yes, he now knows "Kung-Fu". :D

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  39. RobertAriadne3 November 2012 at 20:01

    If that's true, then the situation has returned to season 3 era: Peter as the man with the superweapon. If he were to become an Observer (which he probably will), and stepped into the machine, that would probably be enough to win the war.

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  40. laura33413 November 2012 at 20:38

    Ha! I think its a little more than Kung-Fu,lol... :D

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  41. laura33413 November 2012 at 20:45

    Ah! Interesting theory! I have been thinking of nothing else since seeing it last night,wondering how its going to play out,there are so many ways he can handle this or this ( meaning the devise) can handle him.... It would make a good ending,not to far out and not dumbing down just to have a good ending..I have been liking DarthsLocke4 theory for a long time,gee since late last winter we have been talking about this,its changed a bit but check hers out,mine is floating around somewhere.

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  42. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 21:38

    Well I think there are just allusions/juxtapositions to Peter using (being "in") the machine by having him "use" this device and place it within his own body. -It gets into this whole idea is can any given piece of tech that has potential to make us advance take over us and make us become vengeful/evil, or can we in some cases over turn it with love?


    (Last weeks featured Pawn shop: A place to BARTER and TRADE (grieving process/reciprocity) and Peter in blast getting a cut on his head which also mirrors the last 3 episodes of S3...)


    But the real climax of our s1-3 time line was Walternate via the help of William Bell (in more than one way, as Bell also pushed Peter to use the machine too, and also their are the s1-3 time lines Observers to consider) was Walternate being willing to destroy life in another world by using innocent life (Henry-his own family), which argumentively is no different than destroying life anywhere, such as yet another future, as Peter attempted to do.


    This is another reason why I believe the amber timeline is Bardo, because now there is a real "test" for Peter to be better than his father...

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  43. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 21:54

    I am pretty sure the writers debunked Peter being an Observer, but I do think that an original Peter (or rather another Peter from the time line the Observers were created in) was a modified clone-stepping-stone that is right up there with shapeshifters in terms of being only a few steps away from being 'true' Observer. He's like a 'pre-observer' IMO.


    But I think he looked pretty mean after he put the nerve/spine device in his own neck/spine. I am not sure he is going to care much about of anything but revenge?! Walter, Astrid, and Olivia should watch out!

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  44. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 21:57

    agreed!

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  45. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 22:00

    I think the posters emphasize the ridiculous and extreme, but also fearful nature of the Observers. To make a spectacle out of one girl, almost suggest just how important she really was and how "emotional" the Observers actually are...although there is something to be said using it as a tactic to emotionally shake down those that cared about her...

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  46. laura33413 November 2012 at 23:19

    Sorry i took so long getting to you,i just finished dinner and the dishes.Yep,Olivia needed to cry,and i'm thankful she didn't pull away from Peter and actually experience the grieving process with Peter,but now its time to focus and help Peter.

    I never expected Peter to put that devise in his neck,never saw that coming,i just thought he was going to take it out of the Observers neck so he would experience pain....

    Peter is so filled with anger and pain i can't see him using this devise in a positive way,towards the Observers,not yet anyway..

    And Walter seems to have it altogether since he had the piece of his brain put back into him. We have a whole new Walter yet again!

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  47. DarthLocke43 November 2012 at 23:57

    No worries. (:


    It seems like there are a lot ways this could go, but I'm glad that there could be a device/piece of tech that might be the key in Observer behavior, because I do think these Observers show a rather drastic change compared to the previous agents and I would like to think we could get real reasons for this their assault/take over on 2015+, rather than no explanation, despite whatever this reality turns out to be


    and I also didn't see Peter putting a piece of tech into his neck coming either! -But I like the prospects of what it all could mean!


    all that keeps going through my mind is System Failure. System Failure. :p

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  48. neon_ruby4 November 2012 at 00:04

    Oh Peter...what did you do?!! I did not expect him to implant that chip in himself but I cannot wait to see what happens with that. And looks like Peter's finally become the Observer(ish) that he's always rumoured to be.

    Poor Olivia - it is tough to see her so broken. Anna Torv was brilliant throughout the episode. My only hope is that we'll see a bit more of the proactive Liv in future episodes. This episode needed to show her grieving but I want to see a bit more of tough Liv.



    This episode had a lot of great moments but that talk between Walter and Olivia about Etta's tapes has jumped up into one of my top Fringe moments. It was beautifully done. And John Noble - just fantastic!

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  49. laura33414 November 2012 at 00:05

    I don't believe he is a Observer,and yikes! Oh man, Peter looked to in so much pain after getting the devise in his neck! Yep,he looks mean,looked mean before he inserted it,looked even meaner after. I wonder if they will be able to remove it? I thought it kind of weird the way it went in all by itself,the same way that part of the machine clasped around his wrist...makes one wonder!

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  50. laura33414 November 2012 at 00:27

    LOL,that's PERFECT!! Yes,this is going to be interesting seeing what all this means,and how this devise aids him,and what it affords them..

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  51. HoH84 November 2012 at 02:27

    Oh Please....writers....Dont make Peter BALD now he's a Observer.....Please Dont....☺....

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  52. Gary Bird4 November 2012 at 05:02

    Great episode with terrific performances from the cast.

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  53. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 14:01

    It might have to be their past too, unless the Fringe team died originally instead of being ambered.... we know in the current 2036 of this timeline that September was seemingly dealt with according to Walter in LOT...

    But the fact that creating a black hole to try and screw up transit and this other future that the Observers are coming from didn't appear to do much of anything shows us either a extreme ability to 'reset' space (And Those We Left Behind) and/or that this time period has a special kind of lock down on it, where it's VERY hard to change certain course. -But it could be that there is a type of time warp where the 2036 or other future that existed prior to September's time traveling back to warn Olivia could still repeat here and there could be traces of him, unless he was course corrected out, but perhaps the deal with Peter and Beacon (A Short Story About Love) is a remedy to that? -The problem is we don't know when in what future (what date) September had come back from...but it would be SWEET if Walter goes there in the next episode, but alas it seems a pocket universe (which could just be another special hidden space within space that was "saved" for them (Like Harry Potter's Order of the Phoenix)

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  54. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 14:10

    GREAT point and NICE CALL about the prototype interface! -It does suggest he was "designed" for this! :D

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  55. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 14:12

    That makes good sense!

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  56. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 14:21

    Going back to the events of season 3 again, this deal with Peter also presents that idea that if he is still in the machine, that he is still in the process of proving himself to Olivia...

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  57. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 14:27

    It would be funny if his hair would just start falling out :p

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  58. laura33414 November 2012 at 15:34

    Thanks! :D This is making me wonder if since this devise was 'meant' for him if it cannot be removed,it might make him the 'First Observer",or The First Person,because of this devise? Since Olivia is still young enough to bare children,should she have them will this devise ( in Peter) over time rewire,or enhance their abilities? Is this what September and the other Observers meant by 'The boy was important'?

    Ha,i must say i haven't thought this through,these are just random thoughts that have been popping up in my fron (SG1,The Fifth Race)!

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  59. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 15:48

    Regarding the fixing of the portal: I think it's actually quite a simple explanation. Lets say the anti-matter did in fact totally screw up the shipping lane for the Observers for 100 years, even 1000 years. It wouldn't matter how long in the future that Peter, and Walter's plan screwed them up for, because as soon as it was repaired whether it was days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, or millenia. All the Observers from the future would have to do once they repaired it; is send the shipment right back to the same time and space they were originally planning on shipping it to. To Peter and Olivia it would seem like their plan didn't work, but to the Observers on the other side of that wormhole it was a giant pain in the butt.

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  60. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 15:55

    Yes! Nice idea: the 'first person' (first people) to time travel and create a new reality!

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  61. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 15:59

    That could work too! - But because it was instantly "fixed" it still requires Knowledge of a break down to be able to immediately fix it. -Can't fix it, if it ain't broke. So there has to be a type of reset and awareness in any given future for them to be able to come back to that space/time.

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  62. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 16:03

    Regarding September:
    Since we are dealing with time-travel, timelines are only relative to the time-traveler. September has a linear timeline that is not linear to non-time-travelers. All of September's past appearances are not technically in his past, they are in his future. Lets say September originally came to 2015 with all the other Observers in the invasion, then lets say something happens that causes Windmark to want to send the science team back in time to Observe a certain set of circumstances and people. What if that thing that happened to cause Windmark to send September and the others back was in fact Peter gaining usage of powers that are like theirs. Or perhaps something even bigger will happen soon that causes Windmark to send them back. Well then we would have a hostile September travel back in time, undercover so as to not alert anyone. Over the course of his Observation of Walter, Peter, and Olivia, he develops a sort of liking for them, that turns into sort of love for them. He sees that there is a power greater than any tech that his kind possesses, and that is love. He realizes that love can conquer any situation. He sees Walter love a son so much that he would shatter a universe to heal him. He see's Peter love Olivia so much that he would destroy a universe to save her, then he would even go as far as to change a timeline to make sure she lives, even if it means he never existed. September will then see that even though the timeline has been changed Olivia's, and Walter's love for Peter will actually physically bring him into this new timeline. This will all force September to come to terms with the idea that love is a serious thing, and will lead him to actually help Walter and Peter, in 2015 when the purge happens. Assumingly resulting in the ending of his linear life.

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  63. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 16:07

    To us it was instantly fixed, because we are at the exact time and space the shipment is scheduled for. As long as the future Observers stick to that shipping schedule, which they should since it is planned already, then like I said it wouldn't matter how late in the future they actually shipped it, because it was still going to show up here at the planned time, and place.

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  64. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 16:41

    Not necessarily true...because the time traveler has potential to change the time lines, and/or create new ones from any given point, which then it does become relative since the show is about our primary characters experiences and not September.

    The fact that these Observers are time traveling and there are no massive physical changes/breakdowns to the reality suggest that this time period is in some kind 'other state' than regular reality.



    The problem lies that we DO NOT KNOW what 2036 looked like (who was alive/dead/ect) before September came back in early in season 4 to try and create an alternate future (we could guess that Olivia and Etta are probably big changing factors - they might not have existed or never been found in 2036, hadn't Etta been looking for them)


    Another problem is that that September is at the expense of all other Observers, so theirs a good chance that they could have eliminated him from the new future he made, but it could be that beacon allowed him to come back, which then (short story about love is also "new altered events) and so he could be ghosting around. -But I think a pocket universe would be a GREAT place to hide September or Septembers plan (as next weeks pocket universe looks like "apartments" something we know the Observers had shared with humans, a living space, and where Peter has gone before to help September).


    Additionally I doubt most Observers had/have a linear life. Once they time/space/reality travel, linear life ends (in terms of existing in chronological dates), but everyone's life is a series of events and linear, just not necessarily 'time LINE' chronological. Just by walking "we" time travel. It's memory that is the key to an identity and one's reality...


    I don't doubt that September loves them, but I think he has "already helped" them as oppose to going to help them (as we witness the current results of being helped), unless he had made a "ton" of altered futures that the Observers were not able to course correct.


    I still think amber is a separate reality outside the s1-3 time lines, as child Observers 'there' have also already existed, as opposed to this fact that we have not seen/heard of them in the amber time line ONCE!


    The Only other way this works is that if this reality existed before s1-3 and Septemeber came from s1-3's future (which the day we died does not match this) back to the amber timeline and not the future of the amber time line.

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  65. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 16:41

    No, because we are moving too.

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  66. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 17:09

    Because we already know we have several iterations of timelines that existed prior to season 1-3 to consider ("The Day We Died", "Peter and the Machine", "The Road Not Taken"), the time line the Observers were created in has not been directly shown to us. We have to pick out/sift through what repeats in them, look at everything as a possible step in their creation, to see through the truth of the unknown time line, as it's possible that another Peter was a pre-Observer prototype.

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  67. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 17:13

    Ok that makes sense to me. I'm just all for simplifying it. You like to look into the logistics of it, LOL! What do you think about the posters just appearing in the alleyway? To me it looked like a time wobble. It just so happened that right before we see the posters, we see the second attempt at a shipment, so could that have been a mini timeline reset we witnessed. Or were those poster up and we just didn't notice them?

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  68. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 17:37

    Well for one thing I think it shows a very "emotional" statement from the Observers...(fear/demoralizing)


    But as to the timing, again it's hard to say because we don't know if they were not there prior to those events...


    For exploration's sake, it could be that they were NOT there before. if that's the case then either would have been eventually, or the future got "wind" that Etta and family are threats and the future is now aware of their existence (where perhaps they did not know-if Windmark had yet to give a report -save his own skin?), or even though there are limitations in this space, the freedom to reset actually had an "effect" that is by product and proof of some alteration (which could be hopeful to us) -In Lost I argued all the time that if you would have several multiple realities (at certain times-because the course correction there was tight) relying on the actions of other realities, then things might literally change in 'real' time. EX:-Confirmed Dead - Miles goes up stairs picture frames on wall are made out of wood, when he comes down the stairs they are made out of metal...

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  69. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 17:37

    I'm gonna be honest I don't understand your logic when it comes to past-futures and past time lines. To me all time is relative to the person observing it. A timeline change does not mean that there was a past timeline, it means that there was an overwritten timeline. It is the same time, just a re-written history.(Think an audio cassette tape, you can use the same tape but record over it several times, but it is still the same tape, not a new tape.) Amber is Blue but changed. 2026 from the day we died was not a past future, it was merely a possible future that was likely to happen given the actions of Peter, but was ultimately irrelevant do to him acting differently than what was expected. The only Person that would see the change is Peter and any other time-traveler. The people native to any given timeline would just see it as life as they know it. Same goes for 2609 from whence the Observers come. It is not actually happening now it is still only a possible/probable future. That particular future has found a way to link itself to this time-period. Multiverse theory suggests that one cannot travel back to his or her own past, but to a similar past in a different timeline. The mere act of time-traveling to his own past changes the timeline thus making it an alternate timeline by virtue of time-travel. Fringe definitely utilizes the multi-verse theory, or else there wouldn't have been a parallel universe. So based on my interpretation of time, and time-travel mechanics. It is certainly possible for a version of September to be in 2036 and have never been privy to Peter or his family as of yet. So it is likewise possible for certain actions to cause September to travel further back in time in this timeline from 2036 to watch Walter grow up, then Peter and Olivia grow up, then interfere and decide to help them.

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  70. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 17:41

    If Fringe is about Septembers observations and is the only time traveler and if we would be willing to render are versions of our characters moot, then yes. But that is not the case. Because it is about a group of people with many people being able to time travel in many ways, Septemeber should also be suseptical to others (people, tech, other Observers) actions, and may not have "one" version of himself.

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  71. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 18:02

    September is not a fixed person in this timeline. He is a person time-traveling from a possible 2609 future that may or may not ever happen in regards to this actual timeline. So it is possible for him to have started in his 2609, then come back to Amber 2015 first to help take over the world, then after some event in 2036 be made to travel farther back into the Amber timeline to let's say 1965, then jump forward back to 2036 to see if a change happened, then go back to 1970, then back to 2036 to observe if his experiment worked, then to 1895, then back and so on... I'm saying that his appearances were never linear to us. They seemed so, but he could have been back and forth all the time. Or he could have shot all the way back, then jumped forward at intervals, but the nature of his occupation as a scientist would lead me to believe that he has been conducting experiments in time. trying to find the cause of certain effects. Tweaking certain causes to gain differing effects. But the point is that 2609 is not happening now parallel with 2036, it is only still a possible future, more probable now due to the Observers taking over. I would assume the best way to get rid of the Observers for good would be for Walter and Peter and Olivia to find out exactly what point of divergence made it possible for the Observers to even exist in the first place. Then to get to that point in the timeline, and change it. Then you would not have a possible future for the Observers to come from, and then they would just cease to exist like Peter did.

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  72. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 18:11

    ...Also our versions of the character have already been made moot, as we saw in season 4 with the whole reset of the timeline. The only people that were not moot is Peter, and the Observers who are both from different timelines (one could also argue that Olivia too is not moot since Peter was able to merge her Blue timeline memories with the Amber version's consciousness through love [something that has always seemed contrived but I digress]).So to say that we are witnessing Fringe through the eyes of our main characters isn't accurate in my opinion. I would have to say if there was a narrator it would be Peter. Or even Peter and September.

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  73. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 18:19

    But he came back ALREADY...meaning a 2015, 2036 + already existed prior to how WE experience season 4. We see season 4 through the eyes of an altered state (the previous amber timeline is lost to us, because we do not know what these futures were like prior to September coming back. We can only guess the differences lie in saving Olivia, creating Etta, which brings them to the NEW 2036)


    The problem lies we DO NOT KNOW where/when September "starts" and HOW MANY realities/time periods have been altered to make ours the way it appears to us. The way our characters experience it.


    In order for a shipping container to come from somewhere, THAT somewhere has to ALREADY exist. (you can not create something from nothing), so the point is to not let any given undesired future "repeat", rather than saying it has yet to exist. Every time one time travels there is potential to create a branch off (which may be slight and only a certain period of time in comparison to any other previous iteration) depending on course correction and/or natural circumstances/limitations and what kind of TECH one has to give one the advantage of being able to make "greater" changes.


    I agree we have to create a new future, but the Observers show us in this episode how hard that is going to be, because they have control over these time periods...but that also doesn't mean you "eliminate" their future by creating a new one. It can exist there as long as they exist there, It requires physically destroying the reality in order to actually have it not exist (that's why we can have parallel futures side by side Red and Blue-because there is more than one of everything)


    That's why I know the s1-3 time line is most likely are still "out there" because unless the machine destroyed BOTH universes, there future should still be in progress. (which then this one shouldn't exist, as Peter wouldn't have taken the machines back in time for there to be a bridge at the beginning of S4)

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  74. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 18:45

    No. Peter is still our Peter, William Bell is still Mr. X, Walter still "shoots' Olivia, and our Olivia is bought to us. -It's nor moot if we are going back to all of those things, which season 3 is being referenced right now.

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  75. DarqueMode4 November 2012 at 18:47

    I thought it was a time wobble too...
    Not a message by poster from the Observers at all honestly. To me if the posters were from the Observers they would have showed Etta dead or in some way showed the consequences of resisting.


    The word "RESIST" immediately made me the posters appearing suddenly was a direct result of Team Fringe actively resisting the Observers and altering timelines. It seemed like a message from the Resistance to me.


    Maybe the worm hole being open allowed the wobble to occur, altering the present slightly because the anti-matter altered the future. Sort of a time-space hiccup that bled through?


    Then again, in other time travel scenarios in TV or movies we have frequently seen what happens if you change the past... the future is altered or the timeline shifts. In Fringe's complex multi-verse it seems to me altering the future (whence the Observers come from) will alter everything that happened before that point in the future. That event managed to slow down what the Observers "had done" in the future thus changing the present.


    Even if like you theorized the Observers managed to correct the situation and re-send the shipment to the "same time", the amount of time needed to rectify the situation could have created the time wobble. In effect making that scene be a transition from the pre-event timeline to the new post-event timeline. Likely indistinguishable to most people accept those within the time wobble..... or maybe it has to do with Olivia's Coretxiphan abilities?


    The fact that the effects showed up immediately like that does make me think we could be in a place where time is more fluid... possibly within the machine like many have suspected.

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  76. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 19:45

    "If" is the operative word. I do like the theory that Peter is still in the machine and this (season 4 timeline reset and present 2036) is all only a possible scenario that he is meant to see and change, but I'm not convinced.

    What I was saying, is that yes Peter is still the only Peter we ever knew, but everyone else is a different version of themselves except maybe Olivia who is somehow a combination of blue and amber, and the Observers themselves are still the only versions of them we've ever known since they are not from any of these timelines.They are from a timeline that is only one possible scenario in a whole host of possible futures. They just have the advantage of time-travel which has allowed them to step back into the past of any timeline, and to apparently affect those pasts. They just chose these (Blue/Red and Amber/Red) timelines as far as we know. Of course there could be millions of other possible timelines, and Universes, but then this show would have to be on for hundreds of years to tell a story so intricate, thus why we are focused on only two different timelines of two parallel universes.

    So what I'm saying is that the existence of the Observers is a fragile truth, dependant upon certain circumstances that need to happen in order for them to eventually even exist. the fact that they do still exist is proof that those circumstances are still a probable thing to happen. That makes the objective of the resistance to somehow figure out what those circumstances are, and to stop them before they happen. Whether that means they have yet to have happened or have already happened matters not. Peter/Walter/Olivia will have to either stop them or go back in time and change them.



    Also evident by being able to have seen both timelines, and both universes makes me believe we are watching this story through the eyes of either: A.God himself B.Peter, or C.The Observer(s) because those would be the only entities to have knowledge of both timelines in conjunction with both universes. Every other entity in the show is only along for the ride so to speak. Not to discount Olivia and her importance either, she just doesn't have the same perspective as Peter does.

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  77. Ricky Terry4 November 2012 at 22:23

    "For instance The September in a stasis ruin at the end of season 4 is not the same September that came back to warn Olivia in a previous episode, as by coming back is an attempt to alter the reality. -Observers, because of the way many realities/time periods can exist simultaneously and their ability to travel in between them, gives them the capacity to exist in two spaces (or more) at once! -meaning they have multiple existences at multiple times with multiple memories that may not be the same to any other version of themselves at any other given time."

    That is where I think you are wrong. I believe it is the same September. From his perspective he had yet to time-travel into the theater to warn Olivia. It will happen in his future. The Stasis runes September was just September before he did that, same guy just earlier in his linear timeline. That is the crux of what I'm getting at. We have seen September on several different occasions in the past of the show, but we don't know which instances came before which in his linear timeline from his perspective. Like I mention in another post; He could be going back and forth in time tweaking this and that numerous times, performing time experiments trying to change outcomes, observing these changes and the outcomes several - many years into the future. We only know that he can appear at will into any time/timeline/universe. But as you suggest that he can be two places at once, I don't buy that. i think due to the nature of his ability to surf time like we surf the internet, it may seem like he can be in two places at once, but I assure you that he is just doubling his time-travel to different spaces. I/E he decides to visit 9-11 in the blue universe as it happened, he gets here just in time to see the planes hit the towers, then goes back to his future to see the effects of this thing, then he decides to go the the Red Verse to watch their version of 9-11 and is able to be there when the plane hits the White House. It would seem to us that he is in two places at once but in reality he is a time-traveler and went to one first then went to the other second, but because each place's event run concurrently with the other's it would seem like he was in two places at once.

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  78. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 23:07

    Olivia's former conscience (like William Bell's in "Stowaway") is brought to to Peter's present. Her memories replace that blue-amber Olivia's wiping her out of existence "here". -But it points out that there still are place "where" their consciences exists to be pulled from (even in "The Day We Died" it's our Peter experiencing another Peter's history/memories which is another previous existing future, but that past-future Walter suggest that he "pulled" Peter's conscience out of the machine, although Peter meets the other Peter and September in that space in "Peter and the Machine")...


    We can also argue, because of our Peter and Olivia being there, did eventually defeat David Robert Jones again and that the blue-amber Walter transformed to be more like our previous blue Walter because "they" were here and pushed him to change...

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  79. DarthLocke44 November 2012 at 23:20

    That's a good theory about the posters. -If we go back to Jessica Holt and William Bell, it might be that they are/were resistance -If the resistance can/could of time travel(ed), then it makes sense that this could be a result of a minor alteration. -Especially if we have resistance in more than one time period! -But I agree it could be an effect of the reset itself because it still requires an action to recreate it and this might be how physics makes up the difference.

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  80. DarthLocke45 November 2012 at 00:13

    Ok about past futures and past time lines

    Reality 1-A has is existing all the way to 2046. At 2046 someone finds a way to time travel back to the beginning of the time line bring themselves and advanced tech (We'll just say @ 500 BCE for analogy sake)., creating an alternate iteration of Timeline 1-B from 500 BCE on.

    Assuming time line 1-A was not destroyed and is moving, then timeline 1-A's 2046 will always be a past 2046 in comparison to timeline 1-B's 2046, because 1-A's existed FIRST.


    Additionally as Timeline 1-A keeps unfolding at whatever speed it evolves at, Timeline 1-B's reality is always behind (in dates unless it somehow travels faster and can catch up to time line 1-A's "present") 1-A's, unless at some point people in 1-B find a way to time travel either back in their own reality making a Time line 1-C, or by traveling to any already existing point in 1-A's reality making then a possible Time line 1-BA something.


    You see everything relies on the time (line) one originates verses when any other times exist.


    Future is a weird word, because in a linear time line where NO advanced time travel occurs the future is a chronological date to when you have yet to exist. So 2015 will always be the future of any date before 2015, but lets say you start time traveling from 2015 back to 1985. 1985 is still YOUR future, even though it WAS not the timeline's future, but also by going back you have potential to create a new future a new everything 1985+ without eliminating the future that you came from (your former 2015) which is now your past, as the new 2015 is still your upcoming future...the question is will the new 2015 be the same as the previous 2015. (and right now with out course correcters the answer is "no" because now there are two versions of you at two different ages existing at the same time which could produce "new" results) So you have (the memory and existence of) your past-future 2015 and your up and coming future-future 2015.

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  81. DarthLocke45 November 2012 at 00:57

    September can't travel from the future with out there being a future to travel back from. I can't have a baby when I am a baby, it requires me to evolve to certain age. (If my baby exists at the same time as me being a baby, then it still requires a previous version of myself to have that baby and then place it in HER past, which is MY present) Your way only makes sense in a parallel universe dynamic, but not all universes are parallel as any date in any universe can exist before or after any date in any other and at the same time.


    Even in a linear time line with out time travel I am never the exact same version of myself...I am not physically and/or emotionally the same at age 5 as I am at age 15, or I am at age 60. (My knowledge and experiences make me different, as even my opinions and emotions of past situations can change based on newer knowledge and/or emotions to specific things)


    His time line (or anyone's) is not linear if he is always time traveling as he creates alterations as he goes. Every time he time travels alternate realities are made. Because the times in between events still moves on. It's just those versions of those events are not shown to the viewer because you have made it we follow September's events and not everyone else's. It's true that the Observers travel faster, which is WHY they can course correct easier and prevent creating several branch offs, but we DO NOT KNOW When the Observers created a situation where they can just reset and/or jump futures to instantly re-create an event in the past. September was DEALT with according to Walter in Letters of Transit...for what ever reason he seems to not be apart of OUR CHARACTERS' 2036 and we don't know if he ever was. We don't even know if September ever existed in any 2036 since in Brave New World we do not know "when" September had come from and if it's been altered, because he came back?


    You see you keep assuming that current events wipe out or change future events, where in a Penrose - branch off dynamic you might not ever change the future you came from as once it exists it always exists unless you physically destroy it, other wise you just create ANOTHER future, just as you would create another past by going 'back' in time. Once September leaves his the future (which wasn't his future, but HIS present), it becomes an event in the past and he may or may not return to that same timeline or an altered one...


    In Lost the characters go back to the 70's at various spots at various times, and create an alternate future from 1970's on for the new upcoming versions of themselves, which is reflected in the FS as 815 does not crash) but they all return to THEIR time line's 2007 (which is in motion), because their 2007 still exists and isn't altered by time traveling, instead their time line goes on and the new time line goes on.

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  82. Ricky Terry5 November 2012 at 02:03

    I guess I get your logic. I just think you and I see it differently. Where you see past futures, I see possible futures (somthing September alluded to). I guess your idea of a past future is one that once played out but is no longer going to play out again but somehow continues to run on its own. I see it as a possible future that was once probable due to certain actions, but is now improbable and unlikely due to a time-traveler choosing not to do something, or rather changing what was expected. (i/e Peter in the machine). September said there are many possible futures all running simultaneously, (He comes from one of them) but that he does not know which one will play out (to me meaning that those possible futures collapse into one actual future at a certain point). Of course with at least two universes, that means there are going to be at least two futures that DO play out, and as Walter suggested in season there are many multiple universes (branches) so it would seem there are multiple futures that WILL play out. I believe September comes from one of these possible futures that have already collapsed due to certain events having been set in motion, hence to fact that he and his compatriots were all up in our past viewing "their beginnings". Anyway I've gotten a little off track here.

    I think where we really disagree on this is the notion that past futures (for me once possible futures) still continue to exist in some place. I don't think they do. I go off the notion that once a change is made that once possible future changes to another possible future. I believe the Blue timeline is gone/overwritten unless like you theorize Peter is still in the machine, and will eventually come out of it and this amber timeline is just a possible future like 2026 was.

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  83. DarthLocke45 November 2012 at 05:28

    It's hard to understand and I am not saying that September couldn't have set things up a certain way where he can weave through it all...or that the Observers have found a way to limit just how many other futures there can be for this time line, which could result in more dramatic physical changes to yet this further future, but with out that, there should be many possible futures that have already happened (and for sure at least one other one, the one before September came back to attempt to alter it, as we learn at the end of BNW that one September did not know what the other one (one from a future-that we do not know when) had already done-hence that future he came from already existed to come from it)

    But I did go get the transcript from The Firefly and it doesn't say possible futures that *could happen or *may happen, it says, possible futures that ARE HAPPENING. (meaning they are already in existence, because other time lines and many other future dates have come to pass in those other time lines that existed before some kind of alteration)

    OBSERVER: There are things that I know. But there are things that I do not. Various possible futures are happening simultaneously. I can tell you all of them,but I cannot tell you which one of them will come to pass. Because every action causes ripples, consequences both obvious and... unforeseen. For instance... after I pulled you and Peter from the icy lake, later that summer, Peter caught a firefly. I could not have known he would do that or that because he did a young girl three miles away would not. And so later that night, she would continue looking, trying to find another one. I could not have known that when she did not come home, her father would go out looking for her, driving in the rain, so that when the traffic light turned red, his truck skidded through the intersection at Harvard Yard, killing a pedestrian.





    Additionally the red side of the amber time line should also still exist. so there should be even more future dates relating to that future/those futures that also should exist.

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  84. DarthLocke45 November 2012 at 13:13

    Yes, but it doesn't mean the future of the amber time line is the future they comes from, as there are many. Not to say that it couldn't have been, except that it still has been altered by Peter and by extension Olivia and Etta's existences here, let alone September time traveled back already in the construct of amber time line(s) to make the casualty loop. (but unless the Observers lock spaces down, it should be able to more effectively evolve, which it appear not. So they have set certain limitations that do not allow for certain time periods to change, either for their own existence (as you said), or because they'll loose control and more futures will either resurface, or be newly created. However they could just kill us all and they don't so it actually seems like it is about Revenge, by experimenting on "us"...Which if this is Bardo, could be the purpose of the machine, a mass test and/or experiment of sorts by creating a plane to test in)

    There is more than one way to time travel and more than one place to time travel from.

    The Observers may originate from one future (that already exists), but it doesn't mean they all chose to live there, or have continued to live there, or continue to make MORE Observers from that time and place, as they have MANY pasts, presents, and futures that are, have been, and are about to occur to choose live in, occupy, and/or effect, such as at least one, but possibly two 2015's.

    I agree the blue universe must be fundemental to the causulty loop. Although I suspect occupation may have to do with William Bell stealing tech and time traveling himself, or originally humanity of the future attacked/stole frome the Observers and not the other way...

    But I am done too!

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