Supernatural - Episode 7.23 - Survival of the Fittest - Press Release
26 Apr 2012
Supernatural
SAM AND DEAN STORM SUCROCORP TO TAKE DOWN DICK ROMAN — Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) prepare for battle with Dick Roman (guest star James Patrick Stuart). Dick’s in the final phase of his plan and the Winchesters must team up with Castiel (guest star Misha Collins), Bobby (guest star Jim Beaver), Meg (guest star Rachel Miner) and Kevin (guest star Osric Chau), the prophet, to stop him. However, Dick is one of the smartest enemies they’ve ever faced so it’s a mind game to see who can keep the upper hand. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Sera Gamble (#723).
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ReplyDeleteThis sounds awesome!
Wait a minute. Meg is helping the Winchesters take down Dick Roman? What's in it for Meg?
ReplyDeleteMaybe she thinks the gang will help her go after Crowley once Dick is gone.
ReplyDeleteSeems interesting. Looks like a one-and-done for the Alpha Vamp? I always liked the idea of a good gang fight.
ReplyDeletewoah
ReplyDeleteSera's Swan Song? Dahne, thoughts? :)
ReplyDeletemeg is back xd
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping the build up to the smart Dick Roman they are promising is steep. So far he's like those irritating political commercials on TV during primaries, but he has so much potential. I am superpsyched for all the action this promises although in all honesty my first reaction to reading this was.....rumble! "Let's do for Johnny, man. Do it for Johnny!"
ReplyDeleteBesides getting whatever she is so interested in with Cas, I have no idea. It's not like she actually likes the Winchesters and there's no way they want either Meg or Crowley alive even if I do. Perhaps Meg has a secret anti-Dick agenda too.
ReplyDeleteThat is disappointing. I was hoping a Purgatory - angel - demon- ghost - human combo would take the Leviathans down.
ReplyDeleteI'd still like to know exactly what Meg wants with Cas. Hell, maybe she just likes Cas. Who knows?
ReplyDeleteI know it's a cliff hanger. I sounds fantastic! I can hardly wait.
ReplyDeleteI'm excited and very curious about the penultimate - finale combo. For the first 4 seasons the penultimate tended to be more emotional and the finale more action packed (with the exception of the first 10 minutes of AHBL2, which I tag onto AHBL1 usually). Then in season 5 they flipped it so the penultimate was action packed and the finale was one of the most emoangsty episodes of all time. Season 6 made the big emotional one the 20th episode (as in it had almost no action at all), episode 21 was more on the emo side especially at the end, and the finale was more action-based.
ReplyDeleteWith this season I have no idea how it will lean. Sera wrote it so it should lean emotional but there is so much to do, especially if they are going to end the Leviathan arc. I doubt they will, but still there is much to be done to end this season on the cliffhanger Supernatural is known for. You know I prefer action to emo, so I'm hoping this pulls out all the stops and runs non-stop.
As for the promo, I would much rather not have Cas or even Bobby there but at this point it would make no sense for the Winchesters to suddenly be able to take on the Leviathans themselves. They have to have superspecial powers help. Again. Or it will be a manufactured cure a la InstaDawn. I would prefer neither so my hopes rest on season 8 on this point. I am curious about the "mind game" aspect though because the rest of the synopsis sounds more like rushing the gates. ("Have fun storming the castle, boys!") Of course, we all know that SPN releases are more often than not misleading and designed to stir up questions and debate.
Ha! Somehow I think it goes beyond the pizza man. After all, Meg has hit on every male character character she's been in proximity to besides Bobby. Who knows? Maybe we just didn't see that scene. I have no idea what Meg wants with Cas either. If he has his memory back and is stable enough in his mental battle with Lucifer, then he should be wise enough to avoid any more demon deals. The last didn't work so well for him.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds...horrible.
ReplyDeleteI know I shouldn't be prejudging. But if there's anything this season's taught me, it's to brace for the worst.
I have a strong inclination that what this episode is going to end up being is them throwing tons of action and dramatic twists and wham moments at you and hope you don't notice that underneath it all, the plot is total crap.
And I don't remember Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid having a six man team (containing an angel, a ghost, a demon and a prophet, no less).
She and Crowley are still on the outs. With no mention of Crowley the rest of the season, maybe she thinks if she helps bring down Dick, she'll have a marker she can call in and get help against Crowley.
ReplyDeleteShe's in her fourth vessel now(?) Seems pretty enterprising to me. Keeps her eye on the big picture.
Would have loved to sit in on the job interview she had for the sanitarium.
Somehow, I'm not surprised the Alpha wouldn't join in. Either that or the brothers don't trust him not to bite them. :P
ReplyDeleteMeg i am guessing her survival as well as the rest of the supernaturals on the planet. Since Dick and his kind seem to be the most powerful of all the supernaturals. I would still like to see some Demons and Angels fighting the Leviathans like some clips to see who would win in a fight.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Meg and the prophet. Even if Cas and Bobby weren't around they'd just find someone else to help. War is won with allies and big guns. The guns on Supernatural just happen to be supernatural powers.
ReplyDeleteThe Leviathans are supposed to be strong foes.
In War, it doesn't make sense for the good guys to go running into battle with pistols when the enemy has bombs, sort to speak.
It's not a cop-out.
You could very well be right. I just don't see Cas making another bargain with a demon anytime soon. None of Team Winchester could possibly think she would be preferable to Crowley as Queen of Hell since she's caused just as much death and chaos as he did. She went after their father, got Jo and Ellen killed, and has been pretty much a skeevy pain. A fun character to be sure but not someone any of them would want to rise in power.
ReplyDeleteI'm just hoping he doesn't die in his episode. I like the actor and it would be interesting to have a countdown to the season finale that wasn't a blood bath of Biblical proportions.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you here.
ReplyDeleteMore doesn't mean better, and there are just too many participants in this attack at Roman's "castle"
I don't mind if it it finishes on a cliff-hanger, I like them but in forty minutes of episode, there's hardly time for any character to even have a camera close-up each!
Then they had to add in the prophet too, as if there weren't enough people already.
The less characters there are, the better a story can be explored.
In AHBL we got more shots of the ghost town than anything else and it took two episodes to tell the story, but what a great story it was!
I don't think it is a cop-out. At this stage in the season, it is the only logical choice. I do think that an insta-save cure would be a cop-out. My point was more what I would like to see next season since it is far too late to make it happen this season. The Winchesters have always had help, that is indisputable, but next year I would like to see them facing enemies that they can conceivably kill with less help and I would like more of that help to be human.
ReplyDeleteWhen in the last 2 years the season turned out exactly as Sera said she planned? :P
ReplyDeleteI never liked the whole alone thing anyways. Even when Bobby and Cas were gone the Winchesters still found help. And I like it not just being the boys. More complicated, adds more dimension to the story.
Benefit from a fight against a mutual enemy then fight each other. Most likely this is what will happen with the Winchesters and Meg. It only makes sense. Though for some reason they let her go when she helps, so maybe it won't be right away.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I like the actor too.
ReplyDeleteHa, yeah. Unlikely. Supernatural always gets bloody during mid-season and season finales.
I'll be curious to see if Jeremy Carver will do that or if he'll be afraid that it'll be yawn worthy if the monster isn't even scarier.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to scale back once the ball gets rolling with this type of show.
So true! Your coment perfectly desribes what S7 has been.
ReplyDeleteI thought the Butch & Sundance theme was meant to return the brothers to the high level of cameraderie of the past pre-s4 seasons. But instead they did the Amy nonsense, returning to s4 levels of deception, wasting 5 episodes on it. Then when that was over, they separated the brothers most of every episode, with the excuse of not overworking the stars [really?] And even when they are together, someone else is being the hero and solving the story.
This was one big whopper of disappointment, like opening a bag of Kisses, and finding sour patch kids. I hope for nothing for this show anymore, because the story offers nothing. I can't wait for Carver to bring a fresh eye. This was horrid.
They did all that to get them alone, then did nothing with it. They just replaced the deus exes and separated the brothers every chance they got. We don't know if isolating them would be interesting, because they didn't follow through with it.
ReplyDeleteI wish I thought there was a real story behind bringing back Meg with intent, and not merely "Oh, lets write an excuse to bring Meg back." Sort of what they did bringing Jo back. A big waste and obvious stunt.
ReplyDeleteOne of the biggest disappointments for me over the years, is the show's disloyalty to the idea that being human was enough and a good thing, as it was a major theme in early seasons. I get it's called Supernatural, but over the years, the humanistic side of it has been severely let down.
ReplyDeleteMmm yeah. The way they've made her always need to work with the boys lately yeah, they just really seem to want her character around. Must find her fun to write.
ReplyDeleteThat's what they said, and then they filled the season up with other characters to use as fillers, while neglecting the brotherly duo themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe Winchesters don't need to have constant help or people standing at their shoulders like baby-sitters.
After all the years they have been trained in the Hunting life, they are quite capable of acting on their own.
In earlier seasons, they did have help but it was very occasional, limited nearly always to the actual episode or to a phone call or to John's diary
In this season they are portrayed as having need of constant advice just to understand the basics of their "trade", like not knowing that Boby's ghost could be attached to his flask.
Even the stones had guessed that and the expert Winchesters hadn't!
Come on, writers!!
I don't know. There's always been that Supernatural element with the Colt, Sam's visions, etc. Human power wise.
ReplyDeleteSam and Dean have always basically stayed human and they survive in their world I'd say that's a feat for humans in itself. The show represents 'human will to fight' better than 'defeating enemies of supernatural power alone'.I thought that the whole aspect of even angels being corrupt put humanity as being a good thing. Being human makes people better, stronger. Maybe not power wise, but in other ways.
My point is it's hard not to have other characters around. At least, apparently, the writers don't know how to pull it off. Better they stick to something they know they can do than ruin everything.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the feeling that I didn't want. It looks like they'll have to toss all these characters and at least a couple plot elements into three episodes. I really hope it doesn't come off as being rushed.
ReplyDeleteI'm really interested in seeing who the two new archangels are.
And I wonder if upon meeting the new prophet one of the boys asks where Chuck is.
I hated the whole Amy thing. I was hoping for the brothers to get back to their relationship in earlier seasons but they had to make that big conflict over Amy, which did not feel like Supernatural to me.
ReplyDeleteI think they got backed into a corner when they decided to write the secondary characters into the main story. Cas last season, Bobby this season (although at least the Bobby arc is well plotted as opposed to the Cas one where everything ended up jumbled b/c even the actors didn't know what the characters were supposed to be doing).
ReplyDeleteI think, once you've taken that step, you have no choice but to kill them off b/c otherwise you really have no place for your main characters and the supportings can carry on fine on their own.
Once they've brought them that much to the foreground, they're going to have a hard time pushing them back again. And then the only other way to go is dead.
Look at the title of the episode. I have a feeling that Meg isn't walking away from this one.
ReplyDeleteHopefully they'll manage to survive this and get Dick! Can't wait to see him gone!
ReplyDeleteI cant wait for this season to just be over. Its been a huge dissappointment again. Hopefully next season is an improvment though I'm not sure if I'll be back for season 8 I suppose it will depend on what happens in the last few episodes of this season and what spoilers emerge for next season during the summer.
ReplyDeletePredictions
-the boys will be separated for part of the episode
-Sam will have very few lines and very little to do
-there will be Dean angst, plenty of scowling and mouthing off
-Meg will dissapear by the end of the episode and magically reappear randomly next season
-we will be left with a cliff hanger not knowing who is alive/dead/other-which will be a waste of time since the show will just bring back who ever they want whenever they want anyway.
-the writers will try to cram as much in one episode as possible
For those who have enjoyed this season, have fun and I hope this lives up to your expectations.
It's like the epic return of Team Free Will in time for the finale. Just need the Impala, and all will be perfect. :)
ReplyDeleteI think this week's episode might give a little bit of a deeper look at what Roman's really up to and what he's like as head Leviathan.
ReplyDeleteZoeF I totally agree with
ReplyDeleteyou,Pentadactyl and isleofskye. Reading this
description was a huge disappointment, yet not a surprising one. That Castiel is
shoehorned into yet another season and its finale was not a surprise either.
What would be a surprise is if Castiels third resurrection (reported by Singer
to be for better closure and conclusion) is actually concluded this time.
I
really hope Castiles crimes are not further downsized as he is responsible for a
lot more than breaking Sam's head,he's responsible for thousands of deaths
including Bobby's but since Castiel is still mostly made of Teflon according to the show
runners that most likely won't be addressed. Much like the way they didn't address (with Bobby in the room with Castile in the season 7 opener) the
way he tortured Ellie to death before ingesting a single soul. At least now Castiel
knows a little of the suffering he has caused Sam ,starting with him knowingly
using Sam (and Dean)to start the apocalypse to his wanting to keep Sams soul in the cage
with Lucifer.
Well
we'll see if Robert Singers word means anything (Kripkes and Gambles never did) and that
Castiel and the Angel mythology are really gone for good this time. I do like
Robert Singers vision of Season 8 with him acknowledging they should lose the
Angst,that they have wrung out every drop (you think?) and that they should
return to this shows original format as there is no
where else to left to go (They seriously never should have never left it in Season 4) They'd might not have lost half the fandom then between Seasons 4 thru 6
I would
love to see Supernatural fully return to being the journey of Sam and Dean.again hunting things
saving people,you know way back when it used to be the family business and the
focus of the show was on family,on the brothers and that they meant the world to
each other and you could see it and feel it A time where Sam and Dean were
treated as intelligent by the writers only needing a little help a few
times a seasons and the
stories were small and personal And going back to the time when staying true to this shows history its storylines and most importantly to its characters actually something to the show runners.
This sounds like an amazing episode... and even Meg's helping? They need all the help they can get to take down Dick Roman, but having her on their side makes me a little nervous. She's always going to be looking out for herself. Still, I can't wait!
ReplyDeletesounds like a tipical,soft,light dark side episode writing by sera if kripke l wrote this episode the opening scene will be a real dark blast.
ReplyDeleteI'll be truly surprised if the writers kill off Castiel for good.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe they will.
For some reason they like to keep him around, although he doesn't deserve it.
As you say he was the cause of the deaths of thousands of beings, inluding his angel friend Rachel and comrade Balthazar whom he eliminated without a second thought.
I hope that we don't get to see any more angels in the future, but looking back at the story-line, Gabriel and Bathazar were better "Angels" than Castiel ever was; at least they had some semblance of morals and ethics.
It's obvious to everyone that the brothers are no longer written as they were.
The love and care they had for one another is no longer shown on-screen, it's as if they have become two guys who care for each other, but in a normal run of the mill way, no longer with the intensity of the earlier seasons, (although in season six, I felt that the brotherly love was there and it was shown too, we got two hugs after all ) and despite what anyone says, that brotherly love and caring was the reason for the show's success.
As I have repeated a thousand times the most marvellous episodes have been when there were only the two of them together because they play off each other so well.
I really hope that next season they get back some of the feel of those first seasons, even if I'm aware that it's impossible for things to be exactly the same.
Jeremy Carver wrote the wonderful "A Very Supernatural Christmas". I hope he goes back and rewatches it to remind himself how the brothers should be written!
The S7 premiere (written by Sera) was a lot better for me than the S6 finale (written by Eric), so we'll have to see for this one, we never know :)
ReplyDeleteThis sounds great ;) Dean, Sam , Castiel and Bobby all together ;D This will be one hell of a mind game ^^
ReplyDeleteI think it was zap2it that reported it seems it may return in the finale! Personally, who i'm missing in the finale is Crowley lol i hope he males a surprise appearance or something hehe. But yay for Bobby and Cas being there! i don't really care about Meg, but she's fun and i hope she has some secret agenda to make things more interesting.
ReplyDeleteDisqus generic email templateI am not agree that’s season finally ending was awesome include all possible fans answers question for sam situation & castiel it wasn’t melancolic or sweet.
ReplyDeleteI wonder will Jeremy Carver be brave enough to let go of Bobby and Cas once and for all at the end of this season?
ReplyDelete^^; the cliffhanger of ''kneel or die'' didn't exactly make me feel much
ReplyDeleteI'm with CP, i think it's much more interested when there are more characters around with their own stories conected to the main ones, it keeps the stories fresher and more interesting, because you have a lot more dynamics to play with. And i don't see why the writers though it was a good idea to isolate the winchesters to begin with, though i still hoped to get something better out of it than what we got lol.
ReplyDeleteI also have no problem with the team effort to take down the Leviathans, and i actually love it more, i blame Josh Whedon for that. Even if it's the winchesters who male the final kill i like they have theor support team, it just more realistic to me specially when you deal with a supposedly numerous and very dangerous enemy. I actually will never understand how the winchesters don't have a bigger network of hunters they can count on, like Bobby did, specially when they don't deal with a little hunt, i dunno.
Got to wonder- they have a ghost, a demon, a prophet and an angel what the hell do they need Sam and Dean for?
ReplyDeleteThese four could team up take down Dick while Sam and Dean sit back and relax. I'm sure 4 powerful beings would be just fine without the help of two humans?
Seems like Dick viewes the boys as more of an annoyance than a threat. It just seems like this is only Sam and Dean's fight because they're the 'leads' and not because they're actually connected to the Leviathan threat. Or maybe they are...by association?
I don't mind some help from friends with supernatural powers, but the forward action needs to be powered by the Winchesters, and Sam and Dean need to be central to the story. Leading up to this finale, we should have seen many smaller battles during which Sam and Dean through their own initiative gradually found out more and about them and got to the point where they know enough to try to take them down. The Leviathans shouldn't have considered Sam and Dean a threat until Sam and Dean won some victory that hurt them and got Dick's attention. Instead, we have a season in which it feels like Sam and Dean's connection was forced. My main problem with this synopsis is that we're at the final act, and I feel like Sam and Dean sat out all of the earlier acts. I'm also not sure what to think of Meg's connection. It bugs me that Dean has been hellbent on revenge against Dick because he killed Bobby, but they're willing now to work alongside Meg. Are Ellen and Jo forgotten now because they died a couple of seasons ago?
ReplyDeleteI just don't see how this show could work now with the big bad being no more powerful than a typical monster of the week. I just don't think you can go backward like that.
The reason they didnt have a bigger network around them was because it would make everything that much easier for them? Why would they need to take on the big bads when they could send an army of powerful beings who happen to be their friends or a whole bunch of other huneters to do the job?
ReplyDeleteSam and Dean have always had a connection to the big bad (seasons 1-5), it was thier personal mission because the big bad kept coming after them, kept hem iscolated, killed people they cared for. It made things harder for the boys. The more people you add to that unit especially powerful ones the less believable it is that Sam and Dean would need to be the ones to have to take the big bad on.
Right now I find it hard to believe Sam and Dean would be needed to take down the Leviathans when they potentially have angels and demons who both want the Leviathans gone? Why exactly is it their fight this time other than the fact that Dick killed Bobby?
I dont think Sam and Dean shouldnt have any friends I just dont neccessarily think those friends should be limited to constantly Bobby and Cas. Why cant they have new friends instead of Bobby and Cas? I personally think that for the series to move forward they need to move beyond these two characters, let them go and bring in some new blood. Or next season it'll be the same old thing (Sam and Dean pottering along with MOTW hunts, Bobby and Cas popping up every other week, then they all get together for party time at the end of the season-see seasons 5, 6 and 7) just possibly with a new foe. While some feel it just being Sam and Dean is getting old, I actually feel it is 'team free will' that is getting old.
And here I thought this show was about the brothers against the world. Apparently it's the brothers, a demon, angel, ghost, and some Asian prophet against the world. Silly me for thinking Sam and Dean were the heroes and main characters of the show. This season has been more about supporting characters than the main characters. They seriously dropped the ball this season. It may even be worse than last season.
ReplyDeleteKripke had to work with what Sara gave him and he had to write a season finale that fit with what SG wanted not only for a season ending but for a season starting too. She had the much better deal. Personally I dont think Meet the New Boss is any better than the season 6 finale as an episode on its own, paired with HCW? now thats a different story.
ReplyDeleteSounds pretty good. Hope too see a lot of twist and turns. Love mind games!
ReplyDeleteI really want Meg to die after all the pain and suffering she has caused the Winchesters. I don't understand how they can even stand to look at her, let alone ally themselves with her for any reason.
ReplyDeleteHopefully we'll get more plot with 20-22 so when the finale comes it won't feel rushed. I see cliffhanger and the Leviathan story continued into season 8. Which is fine with me. I'm not sure they can wrap up this storyline in 3 episodes...especially with the hit/miss of the writing team.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that it would make the job easier for them, it's down to the writers talent to avoid that (which I admit I don't trust enough this days)... There are other shows where there's a main character/s surrounded by a more or less constant support group of friends/allies that contribute to defeat the big bad but it doesn't necesarily makes things easy, but the dynamics that are created are wayyy more interesting than with one time guest stars.
ReplyDeletePlus, I don't mean having an army of supernatural beings lol... they've only really had Cas as a supernatural ally and now Bobby, I'm talking about other hunters... it's just not realistic to me to see they're not contacting others to try an find out information about the Leviathans... It would make sense maybe if there was this feeling that the Leviathans are truly invested in going after the Winchester, but honnestly since episode 6, they don't really seem to care anymore lol.
I agree that there's a lack of personal investment on the big bad this year... but that's a whole other topic and one of the reasons why this season has been a major fail to me.
The reason why Sam and Dean's friends have been limited to Bobby and Cas is because the rest has been systematichally killed off for no real reason in most of the cases than shock value... and THIS is why I'm refering to when I say that the constant isolation of the winchester becomes really stale to me. And I certainly don't want Cas or Bobby to be killed off, not just because I love them both, but because at this point in the game it's too hard to get myself to care and be invested in secondary characters stories, especially when I feel they're gonna get killed off before they can even get to grow a little. And since Sam and Dean are completely safe no matter what happens to them, I personally need secondary characters to care about to feel that there's some danger in the story. If they manage to introduce secondary characters in S8 that I manage to care about then I could be more accepting of these two being killed off or whatever, though I personally hope next season is the last unless they come up with something really really cool that gives for more seasons.
In Bobby's case though, I gotta say I'm a bit conflicted because I don't think he'll get a better send off than what he got in "Death's Door", so to me resurrecting Bobby would suck. So either keep him as a ghost somehow or I guess I'd be OK with him leaving the show, though I honnestly won't be a happy camper if there's no way he makes it to heaven :(
"I dont think Sam and Dean shouldnt have any friends I just dont neccessarily think those friends should be limited to constantly Bobby and Cas. Why cant they have new friends instead of Bobby and Cas? I personally think that for the series to move forward they need to move beyond these two characters, let them go and bring in some new blood. Or next season it'll be the same old thing (Sam and Dean pottering along with MOTW hunts, Bobby and Cas popping up every other week, then they all get together for party time at the end of the season-see seasons 5, 6 and 7) just possibly with a new foe. While some feel it just being Sam and Dean is getting old, I actually feel it is 'team free will' that is getting old."
ReplyDeleteThis! Thank you!
If you read the article when Singer said the conclusion, you'll see the reporter never mentioned what she asked, he could very well be refering that we'll get a better conclusion to his betrayal storyline. He didn't say we're totally killing him off again but in a better way, so I don't see why jumping to this conclusion and taking it as the Bible will prove that Singer sin't keeping at his word. Also, if you read Sera's interview after episode 2, she never said the angels were done FOR GOOD, so still not getting why people jumps to this conclusion. Plus, Angels don't necesarily have to mean apocalypse storyline again, just like demons don't mean that anymore, even though that's what they were all about in the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI don't hate Castiel as you do, and trust me... I HOPE that his betrayal in S6 and the consequences of it are dealt with FINALLY, I've been waiting for it since episode 2 really. I want Dean and Cas to talk it out and for Cas to apologize to Sam and Sam being able to answer him this time, and I obviously want to see Cas trying to fix his own mess, just like the winchesters had the chance to do in S5.
I think he more than make up for whatever you accuse him off in S4 and I think he redeemed himself for breaking Sam's wall though, but that's a personal opinion. Oh, and I absolutely don't blame him for Bobby's death, just as I don't blame Sam and Dean for Jo o Ellen's death... but I want to see Cas feeling responsible for it when he finds out that Dick killed him, because it would be OOC if he wasn't.
That sounds about right. Wow, that's depressing.
ReplyDeleteThey have to ramp up the bad guys. This isn't some individual demon the boys are dealing with anymore. The Leviathans (poorly done as they are and strangely vulnerable to cleaning products) were supposed to be something that God couldn't take care of. Since the show won't give the boys any powers of their own, they need help. Meg is a lame-level demon that the boys have defeated how many times now. Bobby is a ghost who can barely write on a mirror. Cas is pretty powerful, but the Leviathans got out and kinda destroyed him. And a prophet? This isn't exactly the A-Team coming to the rescue. Sam and Dean will have lots of stuff to do and the fact that Dick will underestimate them gives them an advantage that supernatural creatures don't have. It doesn't have to turn out horribly. But the bad guys and mythology and therefore the amount of help that Sam and Dean need have to escalate as the seasons progress. It doesn't detract from them. And I for one think the massive isolation of this season is a perfect example that the boys need other people in their lives.
ReplyDeleteYeah, remember the the scene outside the hospital when Bobby was dying and Dean confronted Dick Roman in the taxi?
ReplyDeleteWhen Dean threatened him, Roman had a little bit of doubt in his eyes, afraid that Dean could really take him down.
That's what I like to see, a bad-ass Dean (and Sam ) taking down an superior enemy with some stratagem or another.
The Winchesters winning against impossibe odds!
Not a story of them standing in the background when a cozy gang of angels, ghosts and whatnots do the job for them.
I don't care what they do to Cas. But please oh please, don't take Bobby away again. That was awful. He doesn't need to always be there, but the boys need a support structure and a home base and a family. Otherwise they just angst at each other and float around.
ReplyDeleteThe synopisis falls a little flat for me .I think the problem is I am not invested enough in the Leviathan sl to care what happens with them .And it feels like the world and his wife are in the finale not a terrible thing but it is well overcrowded in there.
ReplyDeleteI like Bobby and was happy to have him around for the rest of the series when he was alive. They killed him off for absolutely no reason it would seem.
ReplyDeleteAs for Cas dont care, the character for me has served his purpose, he has become surplus to requirement imo. I dont believe he should be kept around just to appease a small group of fans or to keep Misha Collins in a job.
Bobby and Cas have somewhat joined Sam and Dean in the 'untouchable' set now. The writers seem absolutely terrified to let them go for good. They are constantly being brought back from the dead so there is no level of threat with them anymore either. That can change if in the season finale we say goodbye to them for good, it might instill a level of threat back into the show which the writers can build on next season. Not with Sam and Dean but by adding nw characters that are human and can die and never come back, they wont have to die but there will always be this perceived level of threat. For me there needs to be charactes on the show that I care about and care about losing. I dont get that with Bobby or Cas because they will always keep being brought back in some fashion. Makes the whole thing redundant in the first place.
ReplyDelete"Otherwise they just angst at each other and float around."
ReplyDeleteThey do whatever the writers want them to do. They didn't angst at each other and float around in seasons 1 and 2 when John was missing or recently dead, and Bobby wasn't as big a part of their life as he is now. With or without a lot of regular supporting characters, the writers need to come up with a better plan for Sam and Dean.
You're partly right. It was the two of them that defeated War and took his ring with nothing more than a slap fight. Pestilence was too easy for my liking, too. I've always said the good "super" beings would be better served guiding them instead of jumping into every fight.
ReplyDeleteBut even the boys need to be bailed out once in a while!
Don't forget the two archangels sent to find the prophet.
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree--Cas and Bobby both are vital supporting cast to the boys...it makes the show better. I'm glad the show runners aren't bullied in killing them by a few campaigning for it on the web. They know overall both are very popular in general.
ReplyDeleteMost shows have stars and supporting cast--that doesn't ruin the drama and it's a true and tried way to run almost all shows.
How do you know it's a small group of fans? There are a lot of Cas fans and more who are alright/like him.
ReplyDeleteThey can't let them go because they don't have anyone else that viewers care about, and that's because they have systematically refused to develop other character... as I said for no reason at all. The problem has been killing way too much without developing new characters, not bringing Cas and Bobby back, imo.
ReplyDeleteYeah, let's kill both of them and prove once again that no one except for Sam and Dean is safe... but then, why does it matter if I don't care for any other secondary character? Where's the threat if the only ones left that I care about (Sam and Dean) are completely and absolutely safe? Why should I care about any new character which has no real backstory with the Winchesters if I know that they'll die sooner rather than later and probably without even been truly developed?
Plus, the danger I'm talking about it's not just DEATH, there's other dangers... like right now Bobby becoming an angry spirit or Cas being crazy (still not sure if that's even logically possible, but let's go with it lol). Sam and Dean always have to be OK to deal with whatever hunt they have that week, even when Sam was supposed to be about to die in 7x17, they had him hunting like a pro, so I didn't really got to feel he was in danger.
All my fav episodes have been over crowded. I'm a more the merrier kind of person. XD
ReplyDeleteThe journey of the Winchester brothers is a solitary one.
ReplyDeleteThe brothers themselves have accepted that and both have stated it too.
Then if the writers loved Bobby so much, they didn't have to kill him.
He could have kept the role he had as a surrogate father and advisor; but they did kill him and destroyed the house that the boys had come to call home.
I don't think they were influenced by anyone on the web when they decided to do that.
Now that they have taken that decision however, they should abide by it and let him die for good.
As for Castiel, he serves no useful purpose at all. His story was over at the end of season five with the rest of the Angel story-line.
In my opinion this show is different from other shows and that's why it appeals to me.
If I want to see the supporting cast dramas that you speak of I can go and watch NCIS, or Grey's Anatomy or any number of such shows that are on TV.
IMO you are just wrong. The brother's journey is NOT solitary--which is why Bobby stays around as does Cas. The showrunners are wise enough to keep them. Cas is beyond the angel storyline--he's an extended family member...just as Dean said. And both J's believe having them around is good for the show and good for their characters. I agree.
ReplyDeleteI can't fucking wait for this1!!1 ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN!
ReplyDelete(okay, the only reason I'm excited about this press release is the idea of Sam, Dean, Castiel and Bobby working together again as a team. Of course the execution will probably fall flat as usual)
He's served his original, season 4 purpose, but the question is whether the character can continue to grow and add to the show in new ways, and whether fans want him to. Personally, I think Cas is a more interesting and complex character now than he was in season 4, and he obviously has a strong base of support.
ReplyDeleteI think you could make the argument that a character has "served his purpose" for most on the show. Sam's purpose was as the rebellious younger brother would struggle with going darkside. Dean's purpose was the older brother/ obedient son, who had to deal with his younger brother. Bobby's purpose was being an older mentor to help inexperienced Sam and Dean by teaching them things like Devil Traps. Crowley's purpose was being as a demon who would stand against Lucifer. They've all served their purposes, but we wouldn't have a show unless the writers can continue to develop new stories for them.
John absent or present was a touch point for the boys in those seasons. They did angst at each other, but there were the mutual father issues that bound them together as a family (with sacrifice and heritage) and gave them hope for a life or at least a tie to life before or after hunting. Their dad and the search for their mom's killer filled that role. They kinda shoehorned Bobby into the role so the boys got "family" moments. Personally, I missed those humanizing moments.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to bring the two J's into it, then they probably are happy to have more people around because that gives them more time off work, but Castiel is not a member of their family; he's a supernatural being who has betrayed the Winchesters over and over, and Bobby is a surrogate father and advisor but that is all.
ReplyDeleteHowever I respect your opinion even if I don't share it.
Can't have a press release announcing Castiel's role in the episode without someone complaining about it.
ReplyDelete(In response to Sybilla75. This is where I draw my nested response limit. It gets too narrow beyond this.)
ReplyDeleteI think a show has serious problems when the reason you need secondary characters around is to have someone to care about. The main characters shouldn't be relegated to being the transportation from one story to another or the advance team, scouting out a story before the characters that are actually important show up and give us the big show.
And for all the cries of how if they kill Cas and Bobby then there will be no reason to care about anyone anymore, I saw plenty of people get attached to Frank and Garth and Jody and even Annie. Folding in new characters is not that hard.
Yes I respect your opinion though we strongly disagree. I'd just add both J's pointed that it helped define their characters better to have those 2 to bounce off of thru the years. And lets not get into the Cas is a bad guy debate--I disagree even more on that and i've heard the arguments. With regards to family--as Dean said, Cas is like a brother AND he is obviously friends with Dean. And Cas warned Anna not to hurt Sam...because he's my friend.
ReplyDeleteRegardless we can point and counterpoint forever and i'll even grant there are things you can point to to bolster your view. I just objectively think it is wrong--but hey to each their own. It would be dull if all fans thought alike.
I think both J's would be happiest if they show got moved to Hawaii and Sam and Dean spent all day playing poker with every supporting character that's ever been on the show. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the best plan.
ReplyDeleteAnd I wish people would stop using them as authorities on what the characters should and shouldn't do and what plots should and shouldn't unfold seeing as they've written a grand total of none of the episodes and come up with none of the major plot points of the show.
I remember a con video a few years back where one of the actors was talking about improvising and how he'd tried it and immediately been told not to. It saddens me that they've since dropped this attitude and let the actors put in even entire scenes (the awkward hug scene in LaV, the trenchcoat scene in MTNB).
They're all exceedingly good at their jobs. That does't mean they'd be good at everyone else's, nor that this show should be the place for them to try that out.
There's was couple of pics of the impala when they filmed the finale :)
ReplyDeleteExactly. There's a reason for that. And I don't think that the reason is that the world is just filled with hateful people.
ReplyDeleteI put the Cas hate in same category as the Sam hate. People who spew it are entitled to their opinions, and there may even be some legitimate arguments behind it, but I thank god those people aren't in charge of the show.
ReplyDeleteI put it in the same category as Bela and Ruby hate. That is to say, it's a sign that something's off and I wish they'd weigh their options. If they think his presence is important, ala Ruby, they should ignore it and plow on ahead. And if not, like Bela, they should cut their losses and ditch him.
ReplyDeleteWhat was wrong with Bela? I don't think she should have been a regular, but I think she was good as an occasional friend/villain.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think that the people in charge of the show are looking at the various characters and weighing their value. Their process of evaluating characters isn't going to be obvious to fans though, especially fans who don't get what they want.
So true.
ReplyDeleteBela outwitted the boys too much. I forget where I heard it, but that's why the writers decided she had to go.
ReplyDeletelol Yeah, when my 4 fav characters are on screen together...um I don't notice whether the story falls flat or not. If it's action packed and has a few character interactions that are priceless I'll love it even if others see it as flawed.
ReplyDeleteI disagree mostly because of the larger percentage of viewers who either like Castiel or think's he's alright. Which should be the appropriate response to Castiel, or at least the response the writers are trying for.
ReplyDeleteLol this is why despite the fact the storytelling has fallen so drastically in SPN, the majority of fans still love the show.
ReplyDeleteI think you can have an episode with just Sam and Dean sitting around doing absolutely nothing but maybe yelling at each other and have no plot at all, and the majority would still fangirl over it.
@ Pentadactyl Mail:
ReplyDeleteThere's definately a problem in showing there's any danger of death or that the Winchesters may be incapacitated for some reason, because they have to be always OK for the weekly hunt... but that's really something that happens to most of the shows, so it doesn't really bother me. That obviously doesn't mean I don't care about what happens to them, but it's more in a emotional level, I care about what they go through even if we know they'll be OK (more or less), at least, for the duration of the show. Their relationships with DEVELOPED secondary characters are important to me in regards to Sam and Dean because of that. Plus, they also offer additional stories to play with, imo. As I said, I'm all for new characters too, but there's no other right now, other than Cas and Bobby who has the kind of backstory and depth they have with Sam and Dean. All I'm saying is, there's been enough killing in the last two seasons, some characters with great potential. I would like to see new characters introduced and developed, and actually see the Winchesters caring about them, not just the viewers, before getting rid off Cas and Bobby (which I still don't think it's a must for me, cuz I love them as much as the Winchester, but that's just my opinion).
I love Jody, I loved Annie and I liked Frank, Garth is ridiculously annoying to me but I know some people loved him, and I'm totally interested in Felicia Day's character (hopefully she'll live lol)... It's great to see new characters been introduced, but you can't pretend for people or even Sam and Dean to care about them in the same way, with just a couple of episodes...
whoa! im so excited to see what happens!
ReplyDeleteNot that it is that important, but here is my thoughts on Seasons Six and Seven. Season Six is like a masterpiece that I never saw coming. Although, while watching it on TV, I had a lot of trouble understanding the odd character interactions, the weird, character revivals, and how all these random storylines tied together, the entire season turned out wonderfully. It all came together; we got amazing new monster stories and development (who didn't like the idea of an Alpha?); they slowly moved away from all the things they did in earlier seasons (new material was nice, although many think it was too different). But then the season finished with a terrible penultimate and a rather blah finale.
ReplyDeleteThen Season Seven started. And boy did it start with a bang! The season premiere was exactly what the finale SHOULD have been for Season Six. The follow-up lead to my belief that the Leviathans were going to be one of the funnest villains ever. Episodes like Hello Cruel World, Slash Fiction and Out With The Old reinforce my original belief. But, the first 8-9 eps after the first two were a little shaky, going from blah to really amazing. The second half of the season has been so choppy due to hiatuses, but I find that I've really enjoyed the episodes. Although not as complex and well-developed as season six, there have been great stories told (Repo Man and Party On, Garth are some of my new favourite episodes), and although I'm not exactly a fan of the episode, I liked Castiel's return. It didn't feel as phony as I thought it would be. And although I'm not a huge fan of both returns, I realize how much I missed the characters and I feel like their returns were well-done, despite what many people think. Every season has highs and lows, and while I don't feel like Season Seven is Gamble's success season, it definitely brought some fun episodes and kept the show running (which is what I like). So hello season eight and whatever other great adventures come our way! :) That's my ramblings
I don't know about that one, I don't like Dean and Sam constantly bickering. Two of my fav episodes were Point Of No Return and Two Minutes To Midnight. I like the action and team effort episodes best.
ReplyDeleteI miss Bobby's house, things that happened there entertained me lol.
Cannot wait - sounds awesome. Interesting that Meg is helping them - wonder what her agenda is?
ReplyDeleteOne thing I can always give the character credit for is that she's quite methodical. I can see her basically focusing on the Levathian problem at the moment and siding with the boys over this seems like her best bet.
ReplyDeleteShe's always been a great and interesting character, and a good foil for the boys, so I get why TPTB tend to keep her around, but I agree with you over the fact that time has come for the boys to put an end at putting up with her just cause she can be "useful" and for the character to finaly get her due.
ReplyDeleteThis is a problem I've had with the show since S1...
ReplyDeleteThere are elements in there that have me quite intrigued. Looking forward to see how the season wraps up!
ReplyDeleteFor me, the biggest thing should have been the Apocalypse so everything is smaller - even the Leviathans. I think that if they come up with a good hook and delve into the story of the Big Bad the story will be great regardless of how big the monster is. In all honesty no one has been more scary than Alastair to me and he was almost 2 years ago.
ReplyDeleteI'm optimistic that this finale will be awesome, mostly because all the other ones have been. No show gets me as hooked for the next year's premiere as Supernatural finales do.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I'm guessing we are on the ending mytharc slide now. Mytharc will be ramped up each episode until we get to the finale. I for one am excited about that because as much as I've enjoyed the standalone episodes this year, and I really really have, the mytharc has been lacking. Perhaps if the Leviathans really do become a 2 season monster, it will make sense but I need the Leviathans to seem like a visceral threat while I'm watching them for the rest of this season.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Sometimes it feels like we are seeing someone else's fight from Dean and Sam's point-of-view. I like how you mentioned that there is no real tie between the brothers and the Big Bad right now. That's why I think going smaller could potentially pay off bigger. To have an intimate evil you are battling could allow a far more rich story to develop than to have this huge evil that no one has a connection to.
ReplyDeleteMy first reaction to this was, "Where's Crowley?" I miss him when he isn't there for a finale these days.
ReplyDeleteIf I were a betting person, I'd bet that they both appear again sometime in season 8. Since it's unlikely that they will be gone, I'm hoping there is a purpose for them being there that doesn't begin and end with the fans, cast, and crew really like them.
ReplyDeleteSounds amazing!!! We have the boys, Bobby and Cas together!!!
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Meg wants...
I've been waiting for the crew to go to Alaska for a "30 Days of Night" story arc.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely agree about the bad gusy needing to be really bad. I want to see some effort in whacking them.
ReplyDeleteAnd the idea of Dean driving the A-Team conversion van (bubble window included) is priceless.
I'm with you. As much as I've had issues with Gamble's over-all story arcs, I've never doubted her capabilities to write a good episode. Tho sometimes she does tend to be overhanded in the emo department, I can always hope she goes out with a bang. Literally. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm still on the fence about both Castiel and Bobby. I do like the thought of seeing things from the ghosts perspective, but I don't want magic GhostBobby powers to suddenly take the place of magic angel powers. Neither are needed.
I read a post that stated they wanted to see Dean and Sam return to the premise that being an actual human is enough to overcome most things. I like that thought. Not that they can't have help (supernatural or otherwise) but it seems that their human cunning and prowess has taken a backseat to those supernatural magic powers as of late. The boys are supposed to be the two best prospects for human survival, but they seemed to have lost that message somewhere in the midst of angels, apocalypses, purgatory and the sheer scope of opponents.
My hope for season 8 is that they can scale back and make it matter that as humans, Sam and Dean are as dangerous to the monsters as the monsters are to them. Right now, I don't see them as much of a threat on their own, so I can't imagine why Dick Roman does. They were a threat to the angels plans, and to Lucifers plans because they were necessary for either side to succeed, but I don't see that with the Leviathons. I hope whatever Dick is doing and why the Winchesters are a threat is made clearer soon because at this point, I guess I just don't get it.
Anyway, fingers crossed that the action picks up and the emo-angsting is left as a side story instead of the focus.
unless those archangels want the Leviathans plan to succeed? Then we'd be back to the whole apocalypse arc again.
ReplyDeleteDean's threats always fall flat for me, he never actually follows through. He puts alot of threats out there only to have someone or something else actually do the deed.
ReplyDeleteexactly! When Sam and Dean dont have a solid foundation (story) the show loses a lot of what makes it great. The writers need to strip it back to a great story for the brothers first and foremost then add supporting characters. Lay the foundations.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. A lot of this I am going to address in a What I Want from Season 8 post. The biggest thing is we need to have a Dean and Sam focus in the action instead of them reporting the action. Thus far we are watching the brothers watch the action and that gets old. I'm conflicted on the Leviathans though because I think they will go down as the weakest villains of all if they are resolved this year but I too am unsure how the Winchesters can actually become a threat if they continue to season 8. As for the emoangsting, you know "No more chick flick moments" is my Supernatural mantra.
ReplyDeleteI also hope we go back to the brothers showing their love for each other. It doesn't mean they need to "grow lady parts" but that was the core of the show in the beginning. I'd like to get back as someone said to "the family business...saving people, hunting things." Life was simple and easy then. Even Dean commented on how they had three world ending situations in three years. Come on, writers. My favorite episodes mostly have Jeremy Carver as the writer or at the helm...I hope he can bring the show we loved back to us. It's been said that Sam and Dean are the two best hunters out there. So if they always need so much help, how bad are the other hunters. Are they all like Garth? I remember Bobby asking him how he manages to stay alive. To address another comment, I also read that the writers got rid of Bela because she always outwitted the boys and made them look stupid, (and who's fault was that, writers?). But it was hard to feel any sympathy for her character. She shot Sam in Bad Day At Black Rock, also tried to shoot/kill Dean and then tried to kill both boys right before the hounds came for her. I didn't think she deserved to die for making a deal at 14, but the way she chose to live her life earned her the time in Hell. So as much as I liked the actress, I don't miss Bela.Considering Dean's attitude toward Sam working with Ruby, I really think they need to stop working with demons. "They want us dead, we want them dead!"
ReplyDeleteSera has written so many of our best, most intense episodes !! Really looking forward to this one ...just sad that Season 7 draws to a close...........Thank God for DVDs.......Netflix and free streaming sites................. SUPERNATURAL FOREVER !!! ( in our hearts)
ReplyDeleteHe did just fine against Azazel in the cemetery and Zachariah in the beautiful room.
ReplyDeleteI like what the show is getting back to in terms of the brothers. The supernatural "help" is not even that. Sure Castiel was used as a Deus Ex Machina occasionally, but the writers upped the help as the enemies became stronger. To put things in perspective more or less which brought out the human story when Sam & Dean denied Destiny and chose Freewill.
ReplyDeleteRemember in S5 when Dean killed Zachariah and Sam killed Brady next? Remember that cool speech by Dean about the supernatural enemies NOT understanding and that they should be worried about the Winchesters and not each other? That alley scene was the essence of this show. Just because 2 years go by doesn't mean the show has lost it's edge. Fans should give the writers a break. I would rather have the show that not have it, since Lost & other serial drama shows are hard to find now days.
You called it perfectly. I agree, the part in that episode where Dean tells Dick that he is coming not to hunt him but to actually kill him was awesome. The fact he carried through for his promise and more than likely did it in Bobby's memory, yeah that was awe inspiring.
ReplyDeleteThis series can still surprise and for anyone that thinks the boys don't matter storyline wise think of that promise and you'll see a pattern. The show works and I'm happy!