I loved it! Ugh, Cora is the worst. Still hate Regina, but I ship her and Daniel, which makes no sense.
And it's not Snow's fault about what happened. She was a twelve year old who got emotionally manipulated by an adult. Regina should be blaming her mother instead of Snow.
And I loved how August said he'd never betray Emma. I love Emma/Graham, but I may be shipping Emma/August a little.
And what kind of fucked up place is Fairy Tale World if the king proposes to a woman he's never met just because he saves his daughter? And a mother accepts a proposal for her daughter! What?
But if Regina blames her mother, she would have to realize that her entire life she's been being manipulated, controlled and abused and she spent the whole episode wanting desperately to believe her mother loved her and wanted the best for her. Plus, it's not so nice to imagine that your mother just forced you to marry a man several decades older than you with all the sexual components that requires.
I was conflicted about the whole Snow story, but I think it boils down to that she can't change her mother, so the only way was to get away. Snow spoiled that, and so that's why Regina blames her. They would have gotten away if she hadn't told her.
Also - I spoiled myself and saw the Kathryn photos from a while ago. I knew in the last five minutes that she would be coming back, but I wasn't sure if she was alive or dead. Happy she's alive!
Great episode. Poor Regina. Her mother basically manipulated her into everything. She actually looked crazy, like completely unhinged, while talking to Mary Margaret in the cell the second time.
Fairytale world continues to be a really creepy place. How many women are being forced to marry people they don't want to?
I imagine they will explore more of the Regina/Cora history in the future. It was obvious from her first scene that Cora was mentally and verbally abusive. It looks to me that Regina snapping was a long time coming.
Well we know why Regina hates snow.And It still causes you to hate regina.Blaming a 12 year old girl,and doing the things she has done just makes her evil.She became no better than Cora.
Glad Emma now knows Sydney Isn't on her side.It looks like Gold was playing Regina.All along he was planning for Katharyn to return.
Glad to see what happened between Snow and the evil queen finally but you can't blame a kid for that mistake, especially with the evil queens mom causing all of it to start with. I'm really dying to see where Kathryn was and how she ended up in that parking lot.
I still don't like Regina, to hold a grudge against a child is absurd, she didn't know any better! And if she truly loved Daniel, she wouldn't have gone all 'it's over now, time to move on and be evil' like seriously? If I was in her shoes, i'd prob slap Cora and still run away lol
Regina is a right piece of work and now she is taking her Mummy issues out on a little girl? I LOVE this show!!!! But three weeks until the next one, not fair!
While I agree Regina is taking revenge too far, Snow isn't as innocent as you are all making her out to be. 12 years old is old enough to know what a secret is and how to keep one. Its not hard to keep your mouth shut. But Snow, in her naivete, chose to ignore her promise to Regina and interfere in her life by blabbing to Regina's mother. Granted, she was manipulated, but a promise is a promise.
So while I can't condone the measures Regina has taken to get her revenge, young Snow was kind of dim for being on the cusp of being a teenager.
But it's a little difficult to believe that Regina is going to continue believing that her mother just loved her and wanted the best for her since it's all but inevitable that Regina ends up killing her. (They've got to explain Cora's absence from the King's castle when the genie shows up and where Regina got those abilities of her's; the easiest explanation for all of this is that Regina killed Cora and inherited her powers as a result (as per the rules about killing someone).)
Dayum.. well I guess we know where Regina learned how to be a cold-hearted witch. There are some serious issues in that family, and they all go by the name of "Cora". I liked seeing a softer side of Regina, though. It still doesn't make me feel for her, but I understand how everything molded her into who she is now. I think I liked Daniel, but I'm torn due to his strange resemblance to a young David Bowie at random times throughout the episode.
I loved mini-Snow. They did a great job casting her! Also, I know Snow promised to keep Regina's secret, but it's not her fault she didn't know that Cora was a manipulative bitch.
Also, HOLY CRAP. I figured Kathryn was going to make a comeback somehow, but at least now we have some ironclad evidence that Mary Margaret didn't murder her haha.. Regina's going to have a hard time proving that one now ;)
I don't think it's difficult to believe at all. Lots of people spend their lives being abused and still want the abusive parent's approval and love, maybe even more. Especially since we saw Cora physically abuse Regina into acquiescence then she turned around and defended her mother to Daniel.
Are those actually the rules of killing someone? I thought Rumples/Charming were being metaphorical by saying that if you choose murder you become a murderer, even if your reasons are righteous. That killing someone and taking their powers was only a Dark One thing, that's why there was a specific charmed object involved.
Loved it. Liked that we finally got the explanation of why Regina hated Snow so much, although it would seem that she should've put the hate squarely where it should've - on her mother, who clearly orchestrated everything that happened. I'm thinking that Regina's mother is the "Queen of Hearts" in wonderland due to her penchant of heart ripping, and I think that she was wearing a red heart pendant as well. (the good news - is that since Regina brought her father back in last week's ep, perhaps Emma can bring back the Huntsman as well). The other thing I got and suspect that even tough I was originally thinking that August was Rumple's son, I'm thinking that since he was so adamant to Emma that he was not a liar, that he is in fact, grown up Pinocchio. Just a guess. But I'm glad that Kathryn has made her reappearance and am looking forward to next week. Good casting with the young Snow who looks just like Ginnifer...
I think she was mostly just very naive. And Cora used Snow White's own mummy issues very well. But she still has to accept part of the blame for sure. Cora is obviously the truly evil force in this story, but I can see why Regina felt betrayed. If Snow had kept her mouth shut like she promised, Regina and Daniel would have left, gotten married and started a family. Instead she had to watch her own, abusive and way too powerful mother murder her true love and force her into marrying a man old enough to be her father. Her grief obviously spun way out of control, but it's not like the show wanted to present a justification for Regina's acts. I think they did a good job with presenting this as a complex issue. It's possible to sympathize with both Regina and Snow. And hate Cora with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
- Well this episode confirms that Mr.Gold is playing Regina(and to extension Emma) towards the outcome he wants. He is the true mastermind behind everything - the curse, the cursebreaking deal, everything. - REGINA, YOU POOR AWESOME YOU… :[ I guess that explains why you hate everyone’s happy endings. You did not really get your own… - I do not blame Regina fro holding that grudge. Its not about logic or reason. In Regina’s eyes Snow White was the catalyst of the end of her love. And she technically was. For Regina, those reasons WHY do not matter. Its the result that is there and she has lost what she loved the most. - GODS DAMN IT WHAT A CLIFFHANGER. So Kathryn is walking around without a heart? Wacky Mr.Gold~
Yeah, she totally grew up in a world where mothers killed their daughters' true loves. Snow was a fairy tale princess, can anyone say sheltered much? It's kinda of a black and white world, so a grey area of "lying is good" is totally not something she would trust implicitly, a mother's love is.
It seems like every week I come here to say it's my favorite episode so far !! The actress who plays Regina is so fucking awesome. I'm starting to think that August is Rumple's son, that he escaped the curse somehow.. especially after seeing the next week preview. I'm glad Emma found out about Sydney!
Has a ring to it of "The Coat of Many Colours", where a widowed King wishes to marry his young daughter because only she is as beautiful as her mother... And, with arranged marriages, the parents would make the arrangements with other parents to marry their children, so I wasn't really surprised when Cora accepted the proposal and it held.
Regina never should have blamed Snow, though. Snow was manipulated and she only ever had good intentions. She had lost her mother and didn't wish Regina to suffer the same pain...
I have a 12 year old cousin and at that age, I don't believe she would consider someone would ever murder their daughter's love. Being naive is part of childhood. And kids do break promises. At least Snow did it because she truly believed Cora was kind.
I hadn't considered Katherine may not have her heart anymore. I thought it was just faked somehow. If so, there is magic hanging around. Not just Emma's.
This episode only reinforced my theory that August is Pinocchio. He kept saying he was not a liar, and he made a comment about staying on the right path.
Its obvious Regina and Gold have some sort of left-overs, ever since she killed Graham. There's just no new magic or other magic. They have finite supply of more subtle stuff I guess.
- Gold seems to still know events before they happen and have the influence of his deals and it seems that "reality" itself enforces deal rules to happen - Regina got her deal of seeing snow white leave town and Emma got her part of the deal seeing snow white's freedom through Kathryn's reappearance. - Regina still seems to have her power over those hearts and some sort of "rigged destiny" of the world to make her succeed everywhere that does not involve Emma.
Emma's magic is less subtle and more "not quite there yet". i am beginning to suspect that her magic comes from her believing in it. The more she believes in it, the stronger it becomes in the world and in her.
Gold and Regina are "limited" to Subtle for now. Unlike Emma, whose magic only seems to BEGIN at subtle as the starting point.
I never said that it wasn't believable to love an abusive parent. I said it wasn't believable for someone to love the abusive parent that they murdered.
And I don't see why the rules wouldn't be literal. We saw it literally happen with the Dark One, and the bow Snow was using was charmed as well, so it should have happened to her if she had hit her mark if the killing weapon has to be charmed. Either way we know that Cora has to die (or be otherwise removed from the picture) relatively soon, and Regina has to acquire powers that are suspiciously similar to Cora's within that same time frame. Simplest solution: Regina kills Cora to get her powers.
Now I suppose if the rules are literal, and it holds true no matter what, then Regina could end up accidentally killing her mother, thus getting her mother's powers, removing her from the show, and still having relatively fond feelings for her, but either way we still have Cora dying by Regina's hand as the solution that makes the most sense right now.
Momma was a piece of work. Wonder what happened to her. Hope it was nasty. Her manipulation of little snow was perfectly chosen.
I figured Kathryn was still alive....am guessing amnesia is to follow. But who dumped her in the alley? Mr. Gold?
Raise your hand if you knew that pot of flowers contained a bug. I'm guessing mostly everyone. :-)
Have to take a moment and give major kudos to the casting director. The little girl playing Snow was perfect. A couple of her facial expressions were perfectly matched to Ginny's expressions. Wow.
Loved the episode. I'm certain there was something I wanted to mention that I've forgotten.
Emma will have the most powerful magic - The DNA of Snow and Charming mixed is True Love - which is Emma and we've been told like a million times that True Love is the most powerful magic of all. I can't wait to see what powers Emma has.
I'm sure that augest is pinochio, and he is also the 7 years old who found emma. his father made the wardrobe maybe he found a way to send his son too. and ep 19 promo confirms that he is not rumple's son beause if he were, they wouldnt make it so obvious in a promo.
And it's not Snow's fault about what happened. She was a twelve year old who got emotionally manipulated by an adult. Regina should be blaming her mother instead of Snow. if you apply it to the snow white fairytale of the evil stepmother, sure it's not fair, but it makes sense
If he's Pinnochio he could have been made out of the wood that made the wardrobe that saved Emma so he got transported to the same place as Emma and was the 7 year old that found her. I just can't see how it's possible for him to be Rumples son - but we'll see :)
Rumple gave Jiminy the potion that turned Geppetto's parents into wooden puppets - since these were essentially Pinocchio's grandparents, I think he would want revenge. Jiminy already paid his penance by turning into a cricket to help Geppetto. As for the tree, the Blue Fairy brought the magical tree to King James. Geppetto and Pinocchio used it to make the wardrobe. So Pinocchio can't be made from the same wood but perhaps there was leftover wood to make a shelter for Pinocchio.
Snow was not just “the cause of the love’s death” for Regina.
Snow was also the symbol of her captivity in this unhappy “arranged marriage”(as well as reminder on why that marriage will never ever become happy), which began when she saved Snow White…
It all began with Snow White for her. Everything that went wrong in her life.
It does not matter for Regina that Snow is not really directly at fault at that. For Regina that does NOT matter. Snow White is a symbol and reminder that Regina will never get her happy ending. Which certainly explains why her hatred grew and twisted Regina that way through the years. Its not just about what Snow did. its what Snow represents in Regina’s mind.
Which ironically led to Regina becoming the exact same symbol for Snow and almost led Snow directly the same path as Regina.
Haha yeah, I thought the fact that the flowers having a bug was pretty obvious... but I'm just glad Emma finally knows that Sydney isn't on her side! I know this has been discussed to death, but so much for Emma being a human lie detector haha.. and I also thought young Snow was fantastic - whoever cast her did an amazing job, and she was so believable as a young Ginnifer Goodwin.
Solid episode. - I guess this was OUAT's attempt to backtrack and discredit Emma's "superpower." At least they decided to make it clear that it was just instinct and not anything supernatural. - On a similar note, I am REALLY glad that Emma finally realized she was being played because Sidney was getting on my nerves. - It seems like August may be Gold's son just like I surmised when he was introduced. *pats self on the back* Then again, I could still be wrong. - Bailee Madison was dead-on as a young Snow White. She matched Goodwin's cadence and mannerisms perfectly. Well done. - I don't know how bringing back Kathryn would help Mr. Gold so I'm not ruling out the possibility that August had a hand in this in order to help Emma and screw over both Regina and Gold all at once. - I didn't think it was possible but I think even less of Regina after seeing what happened between her and Snow. Here I was thinking that Snow had did something terrible to Regina as an adult but it turns out Regina is holding a psychotic grudge against a naive pre-teen girl who was just trying to do the right thing. Pathetic.
As an aside: The more I see of the fairytale world, the more I question whether or not the residents of Storybrooke would really want to return there. It seems horrible. I have to believe that these people would be better off to have their memories and loved ones returned and to make new lives here (no longer tethered to the town of Storybrooke) instead of going back.
Me too! I loved everything about this episode,i was getting a little bored with this show recently,but between last Sunday with the Mad Hatter and yesterday well i'm right back in it Who ever hired young snow deserves a pay raise,she nailed it,facial expressions and mannerisms just like Ginnifer. I'm not sure Mr.Gold had something to do with Katherine's disappearance but i can't think of anyone else,so your probably right.
Maybe i missed an episode but do we know why Cora is the way she is?I' curious to know what happened to her?
It was nice to see a young Regina in love,and happy! That must of been devastating for her,to be decieved by young Snow and her Mother all in one fell swoop.
The way the scene played for me...It wasn't until Evil Mom said that Regina would lose her mother, implying that it would hurt Regina must like Snow had been hurt by the loss of her mother, that Snow began to really want to tell Evil Mom about Daniel. That kind of implication to a little girl who essentially wants to do the right thing. Easy peasy.
I'm also taking into account the look on Snow's face when she saw Regina in the dress. Her joy for Regina marrying her true love seems genuine. But it isn't hard for me to believe that when Regina admitted she was marrying Snow's father that Snow's first thought was goodie I'll have a mother again. However, that's just human nature. It doesn't, to me at least, mean Snow had any intent to ruin Regina's happiness.
I don't have absolute detailed memory of the pilot but I know Pinnochio was around long before the baby was more...we saw him at the round table and helping to make the wardrobe, but I also thought they cut down the tree to make the wardrobe.
It will be interesting to see what happened/happens to Cora...and how Regina comes to be more like her.
They hinted that Cora had to "sacrifice" a great deal to be able to have a grand proper life for her daughter...so we can assume they came from poor means...but am not sure if Once will reveal to us the source of dark magic, but that episode with Rumple becoming a dark creature that was the dark Knight, emphasized that dark magic or people who become engrossed in dark magic seem to become one entity of dark magic, and the entity can be transferred---passed along to others!
But I wonder if Cora ever had dealings with the dark Knight that takes over Rumples soul and if there isn't something generational that's "repeating" with in the construct of the fairy tale reality???
Basically what I took from this ep is that Regina's hatred of Snow is completely irrational. I kept waiting for the moment when young Snow was going to do something decidedly duplicitous. But no, she was just a girl who thought she was doing the right thing.
And whoa, that girl they cast as young Snow is essentially a dead ringer for Ginnifer. Even the facial expressions.
I totally agree with this. Logic would dictate for Regina to blame her mother and not hate on a child but there's technically nothing Regina could do against Cora. Regardless of intentions, Snow did play an important role in this. Also, Regina was not present when Cora manipulated Snow White, all she knew was that a broken promise basically ruined her entire life.
My only hope for the show now is that they explore this, or at least when Barbara Hershey returns next season, more of Regina's behaviour and their relationship will be shown to explain, because so far I believe Regina is the most disturbed and abused character on the entire show. If you go down the path of physical and psychological abuse, then you better explore it down the line - especially if you got such good actors as Barbara Hershey and Lana Parrilla.
What I would see logical now is that as Cora and Henry are moving to the castle with Regina, Regina really has no chance of an 'escape' even if she wanted to. I don't know where the show is gonna take this but as of right now, it just seems to me that the Evil Queen has been born but this is not the Queen who's at war with the entire world. So far it only seems she hates Snow White. I want to know how she gained her magic, etc. I believe magic ruining Regina further would be a good explanation for her absolute and final(?) inability to forgive and hating on just about everyone's happiness.
I just saw this episode and what I saw might actually ruin the show for me. What happened was clearly her mother's fault. There is no way to look at it that could make anyone place the blame on a child, unless that person is stupid. As I don't like to think of Regina as stupid, there is no way she could see that it's in anyway the girl's fault, let alone have a grudge against her for so many years! Do the writers of the show actually want me to believe that a smart woman capable of such intricate and elaborate diabolical plans is stupid enough not to blame the mother who created the situation for her to save the child, manipulated the child to find out the truth and then killed her lover, and instead blame Snow White? Is there anything else shown in future episodes that might explain why she hates Snow White so much? Surely, this can't be it!
Absolutely stupid episode! The premise of the entire show stands on Regina's hatred of Snow White and it's because of this?! Because Snow White, as a child, let Regina's mother manipulate her into revealing something she knew? Really? I feel like I have wasted my time watching 18 episodes of the show... :(
Misplaced blame and misplaced anger is extremely common and you don't have to be dumb as rocks to let it happen to you.
It was much simpler (and safer) for Regina to blame the little girl who broke her promise than to focus all of her negative feelings toward her mother, whom she has ample reason to be afraid of. Regina has seriously complicated, deep-seeded issues with her mother due to her severely dysfunctional childhood that will take much longer for her to fully understand and resolve.
I thought so, but I am not sold on that... this is not something you do in a fit of anger to call it misplaced anger, the kind of anger that drives a person to do what she did, while anger, has to be strong enough to stay with you for a long time... and when the anger is just misplaced anger or just anger in a certain moment, it won't stay... such anger needs to be earned... when you put so much thought and effort into doing something for nothing but revenge, you are bound to figure out it is all not worth it... but I guess that reason will have to do for now... I expect we may see more about that in the coming episodes or in the next season... thanks for the reply, I was not hoping to get one since this episode aired so long ago... I am late on catching up on this show :)
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I loved it! Ugh, Cora is the worst. Still hate Regina, but I ship her and Daniel, which makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's not Snow's fault about what happened. She was a twelve year old who got emotionally manipulated by an adult. Regina should be blaming her mother instead of Snow.
And I loved how August said he'd never betray Emma. I love Emma/Graham, but I may be shipping Emma/August a little.
And what kind of fucked up place is Fairy Tale World if the king proposes to a woman he's never met just because he saves his daughter? And a mother accepts a proposal for her daughter! What?
And whoa, Kathryn!
Fairytale world's pretty much like I'd imagine the days of kings and knights, back then there were arranged marriages and controlling parents.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I really loved the episode too. Agree with everything you said.
But if Regina blames her mother, she would have to realize that her entire life she's been being manipulated, controlled and abused and she spent the whole episode wanting desperately to believe her mother loved her and wanted the best for her. Plus, it's not so nice to imagine that your mother just forced you to marry a man several decades older than you with all the sexual components that requires.
ReplyDeleteI was conflicted about the whole Snow story, but I think it boils down to that she can't change her mother, so the only way was to get away. Snow spoiled that, and so that's why Regina blames her. They would have gotten away if she hadn't told her.
ReplyDeleteAlso - I spoiled myself and saw the Kathryn photos from a while ago. I knew in the last five minutes that she would be coming back, but I wasn't sure if she was alive or dead. Happy she's alive!
Can't wait until the next episode!!!
I got shivers when they showed us the exact moment Regina snapped.
ReplyDeleteGreat episode. Poor Regina. Her mother basically manipulated her into everything. She actually looked crazy, like completely unhinged, while talking to Mary Margaret in the cell the second time.
ReplyDeleteFairytale world continues to be a really creepy place. How many women are being forced to marry people they don't want to?
I imagine they will explore more of the Regina/Cora history in the future. It was obvious from her first scene that Cora was mentally and verbally abusive. It looks to me that Regina snapping was a long time coming.
ReplyDeleteMy suspicions about August seemed to be confirmed with tonight's episode.
ReplyDeleteCora really is a Mommy Dearest.
I'm glad Emma finally found out about Sydney and I hope she uses him against Regina.
Well we know why Regina hates snow.And It still causes you to hate regina.Blaming a 12 year old girl,and doing the things she has done just makes her evil.She became no better than Cora.
ReplyDeleteGlad Emma now knows Sydney Isn't on her side.It looks like Gold was playing Regina.All along he was planning for Katharyn to return.
Glad to see what happened between Snow and the evil queen finally but you can't blame a kid for that mistake, especially with the evil queens mom causing all of it to start with. I'm really dying to see where Kathryn was and how she ended up in that parking lot.
ReplyDeleteI still don't like Regina, to hold a grudge against a child is absurd, she didn't know any better!
ReplyDeleteAnd if she truly loved Daniel, she wouldn't have gone all 'it's over now, time to move on and be evil' like seriously? If I was in her shoes, i'd prob slap Cora and still run away lol
I love Regina but Snow was just a little girl who thought she was doing the right thing.
ReplyDeleteSo happy Emma found out about Sidney.
Regina is a right piece of work and now she is taking her Mummy issues out on a little girl? I LOVE this show!!!! But three weeks until the next one, not fair!
ReplyDeleteRegina is so going to rip out her Mom's heart at some point. I wonder when she'll start using magic for the first time in FTL.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree Regina is taking revenge too far, Snow isn't as innocent as you are all making her out to be. 12 years old is old enough to know what a secret is and how to keep one. Its not hard to keep your mouth shut. But Snow, in her naivete, chose to ignore her promise to Regina and interfere in her life by blabbing to Regina's mother. Granted, she was manipulated, but a promise is a promise.
ReplyDeleteSo while I can't condone the measures Regina has taken to get her revenge, young Snow was kind of dim for being on the cusp of being a teenager.
But it's a little difficult to believe that Regina is going to continue believing that her mother just loved her and wanted the best for her since it's all but inevitable that Regina ends up killing her. (They've got to explain Cora's absence from the King's castle when the genie shows up and where Regina got those abilities of her's; the easiest explanation for all of this is that Regina killed Cora and inherited her powers as a result (as per the rules about killing someone).)
ReplyDeleteDayum.. well I guess we know where Regina learned how to be a cold-hearted witch. There are some serious issues in that family, and they all go by the name of "Cora". I liked seeing a softer side of Regina, though. It still doesn't make me feel for her, but I understand how everything molded her into who she is now. I think I liked Daniel, but I'm torn due to his strange resemblance to a young David Bowie at random times throughout the episode.
ReplyDeleteI loved mini-Snow. They did a great job casting her! Also, I know Snow promised to keep Regina's secret, but it's not her fault she didn't know that Cora was a manipulative bitch.
Also, HOLY CRAP. I figured Kathryn was going to make a comeback somehow, but at least now we have some ironclad evidence that Mary Margaret didn't murder her haha.. Regina's going to have a hard time proving that one now ;)
Me, too - it was so smooth and effortless, and definitely chilling.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's difficult to believe at all. Lots of people spend their lives being abused and still want the abusive parent's approval and love, maybe even more. Especially since we saw Cora physically abuse Regina into acquiescence then she turned around and defended her mother to Daniel.
ReplyDeleteAre those actually the rules of killing someone? I thought Rumples/Charming were being metaphorical by saying that if you choose murder you become a murderer, even if your reasons are righteous. That killing someone and taking their powers was only a Dark One thing, that's why there was a specific charmed object involved.
I think she wanted to believe in the good in people so badly she couldn't imagine that Cora would hurt destroy her own daughter's life.
ReplyDeleteYeah, definitely. And ultimately there's an issue of abuse and denial as well.
ReplyDeleteI loved that. I also loved how Regina looked absolutely deranged when she spoke to MM in prison the second time.
ReplyDeleteI knew Daniel looked familiar and couldn't place it -- young David Bowie is exactly right.
ReplyDeleteLoved it. Liked that we finally got the explanation of why Regina hated Snow so much, although it would seem that she should've put the hate squarely where it should've - on her mother, who clearly orchestrated everything that happened. I'm thinking that Regina's mother is the "Queen of Hearts" in wonderland due to her penchant of heart ripping, and I think that she was wearing a red heart pendant as well. (the good news - is that since Regina brought her father back in last week's ep, perhaps Emma can bring back the Huntsman as well). The other thing I got and suspect that even tough I was originally thinking that August was Rumple's son, I'm thinking that since he was so adamant to Emma that he was not a liar, that he is in fact, grown up Pinocchio. Just a guess. But I'm glad that Kathryn has made her reappearance and am looking forward to next week. Good casting with the young Snow who looks just like Ginnifer...
ReplyDeleteI think she was mostly just very naive. And Cora used Snow White's own mummy issues very well. But she still has to accept part of the blame for sure. Cora is obviously the truly evil force in this story, but I can see why Regina felt betrayed. If Snow had kept her mouth shut like she promised, Regina and Daniel would have left, gotten married and started a family. Instead she had to watch her own, abusive and way too powerful mother murder her true love and force her into marrying a man old enough to be her father. Her grief obviously spun way out of control, but it's not like the show wanted to present a justification for Regina's acts. I think they did a good job with presenting this as a complex issue. It's possible to sympathize with both Regina and Snow. And hate Cora with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
ReplyDelete- Well this episode confirms that Mr.Gold is playing Regina(and to
ReplyDeleteextension Emma) towards the outcome he wants. He is the true mastermind
behind everything - the curse, the cursebreaking deal, everything.
- REGINA, YOU POOR AWESOME YOU… :[ I guess that explains why you hate everyone’s happy endings. You did not really get your own…
- I do not blame Regina fro holding that grudge. Its not about logic
or reason. In Regina’s eyes Snow White was the catalyst of the end of
her love. And she technically was. For Regina, those reasons WHY do not
matter. Its the result that is there and she has lost what she loved the
most.
- GODS DAMN IT WHAT A CLIFFHANGER. So Kathryn is walking around without a heart? Wacky Mr.Gold~
Yeah, she totally grew up in a world where mothers killed their daughters' true loves. Snow was a fairy tale princess, can anyone say sheltered much? It's kinda of a black and white world, so a grey area of "lying is good" is totally not something she would trust implicitly, a mother's love is.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like every week I come here to say it's my favorite episode so far !! The actress who plays Regina is so fucking awesome. I'm starting to think that August is Rumple's son, that he escaped the curse somehow.. especially after seeing the next week preview. I'm glad Emma found out about Sydney!
ReplyDeleteHas a ring to it of "The Coat of Many Colours", where a widowed King wishes to marry his young daughter because only she is as beautiful as her mother... And, with arranged marriages, the parents would make the arrangements with other parents to marry their children, so I wasn't really surprised when Cora accepted the proposal and it held.
ReplyDeleteRegina never should have blamed Snow, though. Snow was manipulated and she only ever had good intentions. She had lost her mother and didn't wish Regina to suffer the same pain...
I have a 12 year old cousin and at that age, I don't believe she would consider someone would ever murder their daughter's love. Being naive is part of childhood. And kids do break promises. At least Snow did it because she truly believed Cora was kind.
ReplyDeleteI know the actor who played Daniel from Nitkita (Ryan). Weird seeing him in a different role. Sad though.
ReplyDeleteBut Graham's heart was crushed. I don't think there is a way back from dust.
ReplyDeleteI hadn't considered Katherine may not have her heart anymore. I thought it was just faked somehow. If so, there is magic hanging around. Not just Emma's.
ReplyDeleteThis episode only reinforced my theory that August is Pinocchio. He kept saying he was not a liar, and he made a comment about staying on the right path.
ReplyDeleteIts obvious Regina and Gold have some sort of left-overs, ever since she killed Graham. There's just no new magic or other magic. They have finite supply of more subtle stuff I guess.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sort of like the subtleness of the magic Emma is supposed to have huh?
ReplyDeleteIf he is Pinocchio (I have no idea if he is or not and have given up on guessing) I wonder why he's the one sent? wanting? to kill Rumple?
ReplyDelete- Gold seems to still know events before they happen and have the influence of his deals and it seems that "reality" itself enforces deal rules to happen - Regina got her deal of seeing snow white leave town and Emma got her part of the deal seeing snow white's freedom through Kathryn's reappearance.
ReplyDelete- Regina still seems to have her power over those hearts and some sort of "rigged destiny" of the world to make her succeed everywhere that does not involve Emma.
Emma's magic is less subtle and more "not quite there yet". i am beginning to suspect that her magic comes from her believing in it. The more she believes in it, the stronger it becomes in the world and in her.
Gold and Regina are "limited" to Subtle for now.
Unlike Emma, whose magic only seems to BEGIN at subtle as the starting point.
I never said that it wasn't believable to love an abusive parent. I said it wasn't believable for someone to love the abusive parent that they murdered.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't see why the rules wouldn't be literal. We saw it literally happen with the Dark One, and the bow Snow was using was charmed as well, so it should have happened to her if she had hit her mark if the killing weapon has to be charmed.
Either way we know that Cora has to die (or be otherwise removed from the picture) relatively soon, and Regina has to acquire powers that are suspiciously similar to Cora's within that same time frame. Simplest solution: Regina kills Cora to get her powers.
Now I suppose if the rules are literal, and it holds true no matter what, then Regina could end up accidentally killing her mother, thus getting her mother's powers, removing her from the show, and still having relatively fond feelings for her, but either way we still have Cora dying by Regina's hand as the solution that makes the most sense right now.
OMG! Young Snow is SOOO CUTE! I just died from cuteness overload every time I saw her! :D
ReplyDeleteMomma was a piece of work. Wonder what happened to her. Hope it was nasty. Her manipulation of little snow was perfectly chosen.
ReplyDeleteI figured Kathryn was still alive....am guessing amnesia is to follow. But who dumped her in the alley? Mr. Gold?
Raise your hand if you knew that pot of flowers contained a bug. I'm guessing mostly everyone. :-)
Have to take a moment and give major kudos to the casting director. The little girl playing Snow was perfect. A couple of her facial expressions were perfectly matched to Ginny's expressions. Wow.
Loved the episode. I'm certain there was something I wanted to mention that I've forgotten.
Terrific episode, great to see Regina's back story.
ReplyDeleteOh but was Snow manipulated or did she let it slip knowingly?
ReplyDeleteGinnifer Goodwin did say that that Snow's motives in that event were not entirely pure and a bit selfish.
Snow did want a mother. And she was awfully easy to manipulate into blabbering out that secret.
Emma will have the most powerful magic - The DNA of Snow and Charming mixed is True Love - which is Emma and we've been told like a million times that True Love is the most powerful magic of all. I can't wait to see what powers Emma has.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that augest is pinochio, and he is also the 7 years old who found emma. his father made the wardrobe maybe he found a way to send his son too. and ep 19 promo confirms that he is not rumple's son beause if he were, they wouldnt make it so obvious in a promo.
ReplyDeleteThey made it pretty obvious Rumpel was also The Beast in the promo for "Skin Deep", so that doesn't work out.
ReplyDeleteIt was the same with Prince charming, remember!
ReplyDeleteyes you are right
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely LOVED it! Best Episode so far!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd it's not Snow's fault about what happened. She was a twelve year old who got emotionally manipulated by an adult. Regina should be blaming her mother instead of Snow.
ReplyDeleteif you apply it to the snow white fairytale of the evil stepmother, sure it's not fair, but it makes sense
If he's Pinnochio he could have been made out of the wood that made the wardrobe that saved Emma so he got transported to the same place as Emma and was the 7 year old that found her.
ReplyDeleteI just can't see how it's possible for him to be Rumples son - but we'll see :)
I agree. I also think part of Regina's hartred towards Snow, comes from feeling betrayed more than blaming her for what happened.
ReplyDeleteRumple gave Jiminy the potion that turned Geppetto's parents into wooden puppets - since these were essentially Pinocchio's grandparents, I think he would want revenge. Jiminy already paid his penance by turning into a cricket to help Geppetto. As for the tree, the Blue Fairy brought the magical tree to King James. Geppetto and Pinocchio used it to make the wardrobe. So Pinocchio can't be made from the same wood but perhaps there was leftover wood to make a shelter for Pinocchio.
ReplyDeleteSnow was not just “the cause of the love’s death” for Regina.
ReplyDeleteSnow was also the symbol of her captivity in this unhappy “arranged
marriage”(as well as reminder on why that marriage will never ever
become happy), which began when she saved Snow White…
It all began with Snow White for her. Everything that went wrong in her life.
It does not matter for Regina that Snow is not really directly at fault at that. For Regina that does NOT matter.
Snow White is a symbol and reminder that Regina will never get her
happy ending. Which certainly explains why her hatred grew and twisted
Regina that way through the years. Its not just about what Snow did. its
what Snow represents in Regina’s mind.
Which ironically led to Regina becoming the exact same symbol for Snow and almost led Snow directly the same path as Regina.
Haha yeah, I thought the fact that the flowers having a bug was pretty obvious... but I'm just glad Emma finally knows that Sydney isn't on her side! I know this has been discussed to death, but so much for Emma being a human lie detector haha.. and I also thought young Snow was fantastic - whoever cast her did an amazing job, and she was so believable as a young Ginnifer Goodwin.
ReplyDeletepoor guy has to die a lot. lol
ReplyDeleteand she totally looked like a younger version of Snow!
ReplyDeleteSolid episode.
ReplyDelete- I guess this was OUAT's attempt to backtrack and discredit Emma's "superpower." At least they decided to make it clear that it was just instinct and not anything supernatural.
- On a similar note, I am REALLY glad that Emma finally realized she was being played because Sidney was getting on my nerves.
- It seems like August may be Gold's son just like I surmised when he was introduced. *pats self on the back* Then again, I could still be wrong.
- Bailee Madison was dead-on as a young Snow White. She matched Goodwin's cadence and mannerisms perfectly. Well done.
- I don't know how bringing back Kathryn would help Mr. Gold so I'm not ruling out the possibility that August had a hand in this in order to help Emma and screw over both Regina and Gold all at once.
- I didn't think it was possible but I think even less of Regina after seeing what happened between her and Snow. Here I was thinking that Snow had did something terrible to Regina as an adult but it turns out Regina is holding a psychotic grudge against a naive pre-teen girl who was just trying to do the right thing. Pathetic.
As an aside:
The more I see of the fairytale world, the more I question whether or not the residents of Storybrooke would really want to return there. It seems horrible. I have to believe that these people would be better off to have their memories and loved ones returned and to make new lives here (no longer tethered to the town of Storybrooke) instead of going back.
Me too! I loved everything about this episode,i was getting a little bored with this show recently,but between last Sunday with the Mad Hatter and yesterday well i'm right back in it Who ever hired young snow deserves a pay raise,she nailed it,facial expressions and mannerisms just like Ginnifer.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure Mr.Gold had something to do with Katherine's disappearance but i can't think of anyone else,so your probably right.
Maybe i missed an episode but do we know why Cora is the way she is?I' curious to know what happened to her?
It was nice to see a young Regina in love,and happy! That must of been devastating for her,to be decieved by young Snow and her Mother all in one fell swoop.
that was a great episode!! So suprised to see Katherine come back. I thought Red found someone dead.
ReplyDeleteYeah i thought Young Snow killed the guy ( by accident) and that was why Regina hated her and wanted to get her back.
ReplyDeleteI want to know more about Cora,why she is this way with her own daughter?
I was wondering about you over the weekend,working i guess,
From how Cora was speaking, it seemed like she was burned by love in the past and never got over it.
ReplyDeleteJeeezz what some Mothers do to there kids they in turn grow fucked up for life.
ReplyDeleteThe way the scene played for me...It wasn't until Evil Mom said that Regina would lose her mother, implying that it would hurt Regina must like Snow had been hurt by the loss of her mother, that Snow began to really want to tell Evil Mom about Daniel. That kind of implication to a little girl who essentially wants to do the right thing. Easy peasy.
ReplyDeleteI'm also taking into account the look on Snow's face when she saw Regina in the dress. Her joy for Regina marrying her true love seems genuine. But it isn't hard for me to believe that when Regina admitted she was marrying Snow's father that Snow's first thought was goodie I'll have a mother again. However, that's just human nature. It doesn't, to me at least, mean Snow had any intent to ruin Regina's happiness.
I can't see how him being Pinnochio would work. Didn't we see him *enter* Storybrooke?
ReplyDeleteI don't have absolute detailed memory of the pilot but I know Pinnochio was around long before the baby was more...we saw him at the round table and helping to make the wardrobe, but I also thought they cut down the tree to make the wardrobe.
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see what happened/happens to Cora...and how Regina comes to be more like her.
ReplyDeleteThey hinted that Cora had to "sacrifice" a great deal to be able to have a grand proper life for her daughter...so we can assume they came from poor means...but am not sure if Once will reveal to us the source of dark magic, but that episode with Rumple becoming a dark creature that was the dark Knight, emphasized that dark magic or people who become engrossed in dark magic seem to become one entity of dark magic, and the entity can be transferred---passed along to others!
But I wonder if Cora ever had dealings with the dark Knight that takes over Rumples soul and if there isn't something generational that's "repeating" with in the construct of the fairy tale reality???
That's some pretty wild stuff going on then with dark magic and how it could be past,
ReplyDeletethe end was so unexpected what in hell that evil mayor will do now someone began kiking her but
ReplyDeleteBasically what I took from this ep is that Regina's hatred of Snow is completely irrational. I kept waiting for the moment when young Snow was going to do something decidedly duplicitous. But no, she was just a girl who thought she was doing the right thing.
ReplyDeleteAnd whoa, that girl they cast as young Snow is essentially a dead ringer for Ginnifer. Even the facial expressions.
I totally agree with this. Logic would dictate for Regina to blame her mother and not hate on a child but there's technically nothing Regina could do against Cora. Regardless of intentions, Snow did play an important role in this. Also, Regina was not present when Cora manipulated Snow White, all she knew was that a broken promise basically ruined her entire life.
ReplyDeleteMy only hope for the show now is that they explore this, or at least when Barbara Hershey returns next season, more of Regina's behaviour and their relationship will be shown to explain, because so far I believe Regina is the most disturbed and abused character on the entire show. If you go down the path of physical and psychological abuse, then you better explore it down the line - especially if you got such good actors as Barbara Hershey and Lana Parrilla.
What I would see logical now is that as Cora and Henry are moving to the castle with Regina, Regina really has no chance of an 'escape' even if she wanted to. I don't know where the show is gonna take this but as of right now, it just seems to me that the Evil Queen has been born but this is not the Queen who's at war with the entire world. So far it only seems she hates Snow White. I want to know how she gained her magic, etc. I believe magic ruining Regina further would be a good explanation for her absolute and final(?) inability to forgive and hating on just about everyone's happiness.
Yeah well when is grief ever rational?
ReplyDeleteI expected more, but it is a solid episode anyway. Just not the best and I was hoping for more complicated story with Regina and Snow.
ReplyDeleteI just saw this episode and what I saw might actually ruin the show for me. What happened was clearly her mother's fault. There is no way to look at it that could make anyone place the blame on a child, unless that person is stupid. As I don't like to think of Regina as stupid, there is no way she could see that it's in anyway the girl's fault, let alone have a grudge against her for so many years! Do the writers of the show actually want me to believe that a smart woman capable of such intricate and elaborate diabolical plans is stupid enough not to blame the mother who created the situation for her to save the child, manipulated the child to find out the truth and then killed her lover, and instead blame Snow White? Is there anything else shown in future episodes that might explain why she hates Snow White so much? Surely, this can't be it!
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely stupid episode! The premise of the entire show stands on Regina's hatred of Snow White and it's because of this?! Because Snow White, as a child, let Regina's mother manipulate her into revealing something she knew? Really? I feel like I have wasted my time watching 18 episodes of the show... :(
ReplyDeleteMisplaced blame and misplaced anger is extremely common and you don't have to be dumb as rocks to let it happen to you.
ReplyDeleteIt was much simpler (and safer) for Regina to blame the little girl who broke her promise than to focus all of her negative feelings toward her mother, whom she has ample reason to be afraid of. Regina has seriously complicated, deep-seeded issues with her mother due to her severely dysfunctional childhood that will take much longer for her to fully understand and resolve.
Yup that's why.
ReplyDeleteI thought so, but I am not sold on that... this is not something you do in a fit of anger to call it misplaced anger, the kind of anger that drives a person to do what she did, while anger, has to be strong enough to stay with you for a long time... and when the anger is just misplaced anger or just anger in a certain moment, it won't stay... such anger needs to be earned... when you put so much thought and effort into doing something for nothing but revenge, you are bound to figure out it is all not worth it... but I guess that reason will have to do for now... I expect we may see more about that in the coming episodes or in the next season... thanks for the reply, I was not hoping to get one since this episode aired so long ago... I am late on catching up on this show :)
ReplyDelete