“SUPERNATURAL” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET)
“Out with the Old” (TV-14, DLV) (HDTV)
DOUBLE TROUBLE — After a ballerina is found dead from dancing herself to death, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) look into the case and discover the ballet slippers she wore were cursed. When Dean accidentally touches the shoes the power of the curse starts to take hold of him. John Showalter directed the episode written by Robert Singer & Jenny Klein (#716).
Source: CW
Supernatural - Episode 7.16 - Out With The Old - Press Release
Feb 23, 2012
Supernatural
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I LOL'd.
ReplyDeleteLOL!! I can so see Dean trying them on as a joke!
ReplyDeleteHahaha :PPP Dean's time!!!I loved Bad Day at Black Rock and if this eppy is like that one it's gonna be HUGE
ReplyDeleteDean cursed... AGAIN? :(
ReplyDeleteOmg I hope not I can see the stories written about that one.lol
ReplyDeletesounds interesting
ReplyDeleteAre the ballter shows made with rabbit's fur by any chance? If this is anything like Bad Day at Black Rock, I am rolling already. Wonder what the curse is going to make Dean do. Famine didn't have much affect.
ReplyDeleteWhen was Dean cursed? The only cursed object I remember is the rabbit's foot in BDaBR and that was that was mostly Sam cursed. Unless you mean a couple of seconds when witches were trying to kill him, the aging spell in CCoDW, or Veritas' truth spell, I can't remember anything even like a curse.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile poor Sam will be doing his own crazy dance and trying to save his brother again? No wonder he ends up in the nut house. Poor love.
ReplyDeleteI'm meaning more like he's the episode 'victim' again. It's happening many times this season. I just don't like it. Anyway, I'm sorry. Doesn't listen to me. I might change my mind later. I'm grumpy these days. And apparently unable to keep my mouth shut.
ReplyDeleteLol - Dean doesn't have much luck with curses!
ReplyDeleteXD Oh, you've got to be kidding me. I'm throwing skeptical shade all over this mess.
ReplyDeleteYou know... I think it's part this that is making me dislike this description so much. After last episode end I was hoping for Dean to step up and help his little brother. Instead we'll have a clueless Dean and another episode with Dean as the victim and needing Sam to save him. It's just... Upsetting me.
ReplyDeleteHowever... The episode description can be very misleading (just read the episode description for Death's Door, lol). So I'll just wait and see for what actually happen. Or try to. :P
This sounds insane!! but the writers haven't failed me yet!
ReplyDeleteSounds like another funny episode.
ReplyDeleteBut also a more Dean-centric episode...and a mytharc-lacking episode...great...
Now That's unexpected.
ReplyDeleteDance like the first victim (less possible, but I don't doubt anything anymore), drink himself to death, go bloodily after revenge... Personally I would prefer the later, I think. It's his current obsession and Jared kind of hinted that.
ReplyDeleteWhat's "Double Trouble" got to do with the rest of the press release though ?
ReplyDeleteLooks like they just threw this title randomly.
Please oh please tell me Dean gets the dancing bug haha.. that would be beyond hilarious.. this just reminds me of Buffy's musical episode haha.. maybe the boys will get to hunt Sweet!
ReplyDeleteMaybe they said that because there are two shoes?
ReplyDeleteHuh, probably... that's lame but I guess you're right !
ReplyDeleteI don't suppose Jensen has any dance training in his background?
ReplyDeleteThis sounds awesome and I bet it'll be hilarious, but why do I feel like Sam is gonna completely snap at some point during the episode if not at the end?
ReplyDeleteOr maybe because Sam will go more and more nut and that will cause mose trouble :) Not because its not written that nothing will happen, look at Death's Door synopsis
ReplyDeleteThe summary for this episode makes it sound kinda silly, but both Robert Singer and Jenny Klein have both written some awesome episodes so my hopes are high :)
ReplyDeleteI chose to focus on the important bit of information here: Bob got a writing credit? AWESOME!!!
ReplyDelete(I mean of course he has a huge say in story - I still love that he basically pitched Faith all the way back in S1 - but he's never gotten an actual writing CREDIT!)
I'm not sure what to think about the episode. I guess it makes sense given the spoilers. Dean is in trouble, Sam has to come to save him, but because he hasn't been sleeping and he is falling apart it is much more difficult. I think I read somewhere that they were trying to take a realistic approach to Sam not sleeping and that they didn't want Sam to save the day, because that wouldn't be real. So, I guess Sam not being able to save Dean and something else having to happen could finally give Dean a clue that Sam is in trouble. Maybe. I don't know. I like the Red shoes story. So, this could work out. But I'm worried that people are going to get angry with Sam, because he can't save Dean.
ReplyDeleteActually, Double Trouble was used for another press release (for 7.15, if I remember correctly). So, maybe it's just a mistake.^^
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine that the tone will be too funny after where they left off with the last episode. So this could go anywhere.
ReplyDeleteYeah - Double Trouble was used as the opener for 7.15 and a similar opener was used for Slash Fiction: Double the Winchesters, Double the Fun. I think they're overusing the Double stuff unless it is a mistake as you said.
ReplyDeleteSam is supposed to not be sleeping at some point within the next two episodes (spoiler a while back)...maybe that happens in this episode and by the next episode because of it, he's crazy enough to be committed?
ReplyDeleteYup Sam's supposed to not be getting enough sleep. Maybe since hallucinated Lucifer got let back in he's not shutting up anymore. lol Lucifer's kinda funny, but I'd hate to be Sam. Then it wouldn't be funny at all. I feel bad for Sam.
ReplyDeleteProbably a mistake I guess. Or they couldn't come up with a better tagline.
ReplyDeleteIf this turns out like Black Day At Black Rock, I would love it but I think they send out these press releases on purpose to make us think one thing when the episode will go down another road.
ReplyDeleteSometimes we guess right but the majority of times the episode is a surprise.
However the thougt of Dean putting on the shoes and dancing round the Impala with Sam looking on shocked just makes me giggle in an unladylike manner! :)
Dean "weaknesses" so far have been alcohol, one night stands with young ladies, the Impala, pie and most important of all his brother Sam.
Dean and ballet slippers. LOL. I can see him wearing :D
ReplyDeleteoh how not surprising...it is obvious that Dean would be the one affected by a cursed object. But maybe they will put a spin or a twist on it?
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you but that is the writer's MO and hopefully there will be a twist on it. I guess that it is fair since the last two episodes were 'Sam' ones
ReplyDeleteOdd episode considering the ending of 7.15 but I suppose cursed ballet shoes might work as a story I dont know? but we have spent such little time on Sam that I had hoped for more for the nxt episode but it might not be too bad.
ReplyDeleteAnd the 12 before THAT were Dean ones.
ReplyDeleteI know it's just a press release and doesn't tell the whole story, but I really hope that this isn't ANOTHER Dean-centric ep. I thought we were done with those for this season. We've BARELY started seeing some Sam POV/story again, so I'll be pissed if this is just more Dean-focus so soon after his 13 episode arc. But I'm going to wait for the ep before I get upset, because hopefully there's a lot more to it than just what they're saying here.
ReplyDeleteWell seeing as though the next ep is when Sam "breaks" perhaps seeing Dean cursed and maybe facing death/danger is what sends Sam over the edge.....gulp..Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmyyyyyyyyyyy!!
ReplyDeleteBut that was what happened in this past episode? I don't really have a problem with the synopsis. They always have a monster of the week, and this seems as good as any, but I don't feel like we need any more reasons for Sam to break. Let's just get on with it.
ReplyDeletelol I know!
ReplyDeleteTotally agree Sam broke in the season 6 finale when he splintered into 3 this season was supposed to follow that up but has pretty much neglected Sam again. I just hope we get genuine storytelling for Sam here and not one Dean=centric episode followed by a certain character returning and Sam is scondary to all that.
ReplyDeletedean touch the shoes and somethind happend sound very kinki,sexual related may be.
ReplyDeleteOMG, pleeeeaaase tell me we'll see some awkwardly funny dancing from Mr. Dean Winchester in that episode XDDD Even thinking about it makes me laugh so much I could cry. So please please please.
ReplyDeleteI think it sounds quite funny and a little less serious than some of the previous epidoes. I hope I'm right.
exactly..i feel as though we have waited long enough for us to actually deserve some pay off....Cas being in the same ep i don't really have a problem with as long as it not him being central to the SL.....for me, it must be about Sam and Dean .
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. I'm afraid these episodes will be completely Cas centric and we just get a few shots of Sam in the psych ward. I'm so tired of them doing this. I thought the show was about Sam and Dean. Cas just hogs meaningless storylines when they should be focusing on the REAL stars. I mean they give storylines to Cas before they give them to Dean. That's sad. I feel the Sam fans have been kinda screwed this season.
ReplyDeleteThis episode will probably be just hilarious. Poor Dean!
ReplyDeleteI love Dean-centric episodes. So bring it on.
ReplyDeleteSounds great:D Love this show!!!!!
ReplyDeleteTechnically, Deaths door was about neither Dean nor Sam, as well as the premier, and HCW was more about Sam.
ReplyDeleteIt seems as if the curse is designed to make you do more of the thing you were doing. Hunting perhaps?
ReplyDeleteOn another note, is this another episode without Leviathans? Seriously writers, you've been lucky the past 5 episodes have been great!
I love
ReplyDeletesynopses that "seem to say what will happen in the episode", but I
think it will look very different.
Dramatic episode is what I think.
Dean HILARIOUS I love it but I think it will not be so. =\
So then ONE ep was Sam-centered, two were somewhat balanced (though that's debatable to some), and the rest were Dean-centric. And for the record, I wasn't including the first two eps of the season in that number. Still hardly a balanced season. You can't honestly say that this season so far hasn't been super-focused on Dean - Sam's POV got dropped like a hot potato after the first two eps and i't's been the Dean Emo Show since, with eps like DYL, TSG, HTWFaIM, AIB, and TAT. We're more than halfway through the season and only JUST started to address Sam's story, with Cas and the Leviathans still to address, which will take even more time away from Sam's story/POV, so you can't blame Sam fans for being a little upset if this turns out to be ANOTHER Dean ep.
ReplyDeleteWhat, because YOU like Dean they should just turn it into the Dean Winchester Show permanently to pander to your preferences? Sorry, but it's a show about TWO brothers, and this one-sided, unbalanced writing that neglects half the lead cast does a disservice to the show and the characters. I love Sam-centric eps, but I wouldn't want the WHOLE show to be all Sam, all the time - that would ruin the great dynamic you get with TWO well-developed, interesting, continually-growing main characters. The show is best when it's BALANCED and BOTH boys get stories and eps and POV. That hasn't happened for a few seasons though, and while YOU may be fine with that those of us who love Sam or who appreciate a well balanced show are NOT fine with it. I'm hardly the only person who thinks that way, either.
ReplyDeleteUh. Who said anything about turning the show into the Dean Show. I'm a fan of the show. Period. Which means I like Dean centric, Sam centric, brothers centric, Cas centric, Bobby centric, whatever centric episodes. As long as I get to watch an enjoyable episode of Supernatural that includes Dean and Sam and their supernatural world, it's all good.
ReplyDeleteOf course, but seeing as this season has 23 episodes then one brother needs to get one more episode than the other. Sam will get his story - it's just its set up differently, thats all. (In other season they were spaced across, in this one it has half and half)
ReplyDeleteSo then why respond to a comment lamenting how unbalanced this season has been with a statement like "bring it on"? That seems a bit incendiary. There have been FAR more Dean eps this season than anything else, and I love the show and Dean and Bobby and everyone, but like I said I like the show to be BALANCED, and it hasn't been. There are a lot of people not happy with that, which was what I was expressing, and you responded with "but I like it, so who cares" essentially. I wouldn't give it a second thought if you'd just written that as a separate comment. But you chose to place it as a response to my comment stating I was worried it was going to be another Dean ep, and that I was hoping it wasn't. So it comes across as smarmy and sort of nose-thumbing, rather or not that was your intent.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we'll see a dancing Dean. Which makes me wonder how the curse will affect Dean. Either way, I'm looking forward to this episode.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but, so not true. Actually, the first two seasons-All about saving Sam. The third season-All about keeping Sam safe. the fourth season, yes Dean comes back from hell in the beginning, (remember he went to hell for Sam.) Now enter Cas, the rest Sam Ruby and demon blood. the fifth season-more demon blood, Sam lets Lucifer in, Sam goes to hell.- Sixth season -Lisa, Ben, and souless Sam. 7th season- Cas,Sam and Lucifer, oh ok let's see some Dean too. Basically this whole series has revolved around the character of Sam. How can you complain when Sam is the main issue every season? The story Kripke wrote revolves around Sam-the special child the yellow eyed demon was supposed to find to raise Lucifer from hell. They threw Dean a bone by saying he was supposed to be Micheal's vessel. But, that arc was changed so the series could continue. So, let Dean have a couple of breadcrumbs.
ReplyDeleteI've explained this SO many times, and I honestly have no interest in picking it apart season by season AGAIN, but suffice it to say Dean gets ALL the POV. Even when the PLOT revolves around Sam, it's all about what DEAN thinks about what's happening, how DEAN feels, how DEAN sees things. Take the demon blood thing for instance - we never saw how that started, how Sam got hooked, anything - it was all about Dean freaking out over his brother going darkside. And season 3 was all about saving Dean from hell, thanks - hardly a Sam-centered season. Season 6 Sam was literally GONE as a person for more than half the season - a soulless, empty vessel of a human in his place does NOT count as Sam character growth or POV. Then Dean came back from Hell and we had that story, and Cas and Dean might as well just be on their own show when they're together on screen. Dean gets the epic, deep "bond" with an angel, and Sam gets squat. Sam is HARDLY the "main issue" every season, and like I said - even when he has plot, he totally lacks POV. Plot without insight into the character - how he feels, how he got to that point (addicted, saying yes, etc), what he thinks about it, how he sees others- is not real plot. The whole show is more or less shown through DEAN'S eyes - everything revolves around Dean's POV. We never get to see Sam's developing addiction or learn how that started (which means people get angry and blame him because they can't sympathize), or see Sam's hallucinations for over half a season when we're supposed to assume they're there - if it were DEAN who was hallucinating we'd be shown every one. But with Sam we get him pressing his hand every once and a while, and the occasional bone tossed our way when they want to show what he actually sees. And take eps like AIB - They literally tied Sam up in a corner somewhere out of the way so that Dean could have all the POV, all the interaction with side characters, all the bonding with the guest character (the littler girl). Dean gets thanked for saving the day at the end, despite SAM being the one who argued for helping her in the first place, Sam being the one who initially showed up to save her, Sam being the one to kill the monster - but Dean gets the thanks and the touching moment, while Sam literally fades out of focus into the background. Then Sam conveniently rolls over and goes to sleep so Dean can have his weird little smile-moment-thing at the end. Dean gets to travel back in time - AGAIN. Dean gets a whole ep about him knocking up an amazon. Dean gets a whole ep about his guilt (DYL). Dean gets ALL the POV. If you can honestly look at this season and tell me you think that it hasn't been overwhelmingly Dean-focused so far, then you must be watching a totally different show than the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure the concept of this season is that Sam is no longer the baby that has to have Dean constantly look after him. After 6 years of Dean constantly revolving around his brother, this is the year of the role reversal and now Sam is revolving around Dean. If it is so fantastic to have Dean be All About Sam in seasons 1-6, why is it such a problem for Sam to be All About Dean now. It just comes across that some fans don't like all the attention not being on Sam for a change, and surely THAT'S not it..is it? Sam said it himself in the episode Season 7, Time For A Wedding - Sam can look after himself, and it's about time that Dean start doing the same.
ReplyDeletePlus, has it ever occured to anyone that this season has to be Deancentric by default, what with Jared taking time off for his family.
This conversation is going somewhere bad very fast. I'd just forget it ever happened...
ReplyDeleteWow, I was just disagreeing, trying to point out that Sam is very much apart of things, but, tell me how you really feel. I would love to forget this "conversation"
ReplyDeleteIt may have nothing to do with dancing at all. It could be specific to someone's passion or obsession. I bet the dancer dances herself to death because that's what she loves to do. Maybe when Dean gets cursed he'll just hunt and become obsessed with finding the Leviathans that he almost gets himself killed.
ReplyDeleteStarting a comment with "Excuse me, but, so not true", accusing me of complaining, and then arguing with everything I said is no different then what I said. I disagree with what you said, and just as YOU felt the need to interject and reply to my comment stating YOUR point of view, I felt the need to state why I disagree. A lot of us are frustrated by this season (the last few, actually) and you basically said there was no reason for that frustration, which certainly doesn't make anyone feel better about the situation. How would you feel if you were continuously frustrated by the way your favorite character was treated, and when you expressed that frustration people said things like "I don't see how you can complain..." and dismissed your concerns as hot air?
ReplyDeleteBut whatever - conversation forgotten.
I don't care about one more ep than the other - I don't even care if Dean had TWO more eps than Sam as far as brother-centric eps. So long as it was SOMEWHAT balanced, and in the rest of the eps that were not supposed to be centered on one brother over the other, they were treated equally. But that doesn't happen, and even in the "Sam" eps a lot of the time Dean gets a great deal of POV and screen time - we often see Sam's "story" through Dean's eyes, but we never see Dean's stories through Sam's eyes. The POV is the real frustrating aspect of it - We barely ever get to see the world the way SAM sees it.
ReplyDeleteAnd it won't be half and half this season, I can almost guarantee. Here we are at ep 16 and we're only JUST starting to hint at Sam's story again, and looking at this press release there's at least a CHANCE that this ep will be mostly about Dean. At the very least he clearly has a pivotal story-line in the ep, which is far more than Sam tends to get in Dean eps. Plus we know that Cas is going to be back for 3 eps roughly (or at least some version of Cas), which means that a good deal of plot will end up being devoted to Cas and probably Dean's feelings about Cas and his betrayal. Then there's the Levis to deal with as well - that'll take up an ep or two as well. So assuming that we devote two eps to the Levis, and we'll even be conservative and say only two eps to Cas, that still takes up another four eps. If this next ep is at least partly Dean-centric, then that leaves us with what - two and a half more eps that could be Sam-centered? Hardly half, even when you add it up with the two eps in the beginning of the season that were sort of Sam-centered. And also considering that last season Sam was GONE for half of it, we're already overdo for some serious Sam POV/story. I was so frustrated with last season and the lack of Sam story the whole first half, and then the whole wall plot crammed in at the very end, but I thought "at least next season we KNOW Sam will get some serious POV/growth/plot dealing with the repercussions of the wall falling." But two eps in it turned into the Dean Winchester Hour, so it's been more than frustrating as each ep press release comes out and it's one Dean ep after another.
Heck, at this point I'd be thrilled with Sam getting even a THIRD of the season to have some growth.
The vast majority of the season was filmed before Jared has any need to take time off. It really only should effect the very end of the season, and most of these eps were written long before Gen was even pregnant, so I really doubt that has much to do with the lack of Sam storylines. Even if they HAD known when they were writing this season that Jared would need time off, they should have made the first part of the season Sam-heavy so that when he took time off at the end of the season it would be balanced. But now it's been Dean-heavy all season, and the time when we SHOULD be getting to Sam is the same time that Jared it taking time off. So we might end up with almost NO Sam, which sucks.
ReplyDeleteTV.com's synopsis says that Dean starts to dance himself to death, so if they're to be believed you will get dancing Dean.
ReplyDeleteThe TV.com synopsis for this ep says that Dean touches the shoes and starts to dance himself to death. They might not be correct, but they're usually pretty spot-on, so all you Dean girls hoping for some dancing Jensen might get your wish after all.
ReplyDeleteYeah, synopsis can be misleading because it sometimes focuses on one thing that's not the most important part of the episode.
ReplyDeleteI have to wonder if they're being literal or not or if there was a mistake/assumption. So many different ways it could go.
ReplyDeleteLet's See! Metaphor, is what I think. :D
ReplyDeleteExactly!!! ;D
ReplyDeleteJared will get 3 days off when little one is born so no it is Dean centric because that is the way the cookie crumbles and I could of put up with another Dean centric season even Jensen admitted that Sam might get the sl but the show is Dean centric but anyway I could of been fine with that if the writers had given us more to what Sam was dealing with half a season with literally no time spent on it except the odd scne of him rubbing his hand is not storytelling it is nothing really. That is or has been my problem. Dean isnt the brother that needed time spent on him has a human being or his inner landscape Sam was for the show to step away from Sam the sl the plot device and write for Sam .
ReplyDeleteAnd it seems it was my first comment that triggered it. My apologies, for everyone.
ReplyDeleteFirrstly it has already been confirmed that Jared will be in every episode this season. Secondly, as I said, the concept of this season is that Dean needs to look after himself because he is spiralling..and Sam wants to be there for him. The fact that he is always affected by the MOTW is probably because he is on edge, and off his game. However, Sam is not missing..he is the one helping, and also much to a lot of Dean fans' distaste often getting the kills. Sam is getting to be the badass hunter way more often than Dean these days.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, thinking about it just how Deancentric is this season really? Ep 2 was All About Sam's hallucinations - Ep 3 was All About Sam's childhood sweetheart Ep 4 was Super Lawyer Sam Ep 6 we had the big reveal about Ep 3, and Ep 7 was All About Angry Sam followed by Ep 8 which was All About Married Sam. Whenever Dean is affected by things or distracted it's Sam who takes over the reins and is in charge of the hunt, like in Ep 11, which btw was heavily promoted as a Sam episode as he was the only one working on the job, and kidnapped by the MOTW and then Ep 12 where he worked with Jody and got the kill..oh and again in Ep 13.
Plus at least Sam isn't literally being ignored. Last season trying to get Sera Gamble to even mention Dean in an interview was like drawing blood from a stone. I remember a year ago there was a Pod Cast with Tina Charles from TV Guide and Mo Ryan, discussing season 6 so far - they spoke at length about Sam because there was a huge amount there, they discussed Castiel, they discussed the Alphas and Crowley and yet when it came to Dean they literally said "what is going on with Dean?" "........." Awkward silence. They had nothing!
Compared to last season, this season is a hell of a lot more balanced. There is stuff going on with Sam, it's just that there is ALSO stuff going on with Dean. Despite what you think, this season isn't The Dean show..and this will never be The Sam show either.
I'm mostly a Dean girl, Charlote. I just love big!brother!protector!Dean too much and miss it dearly. I also love to see the Bad-ass!Dean kicking the monster ass better than to see victim!Dean having to be 'saved'.
ReplyDeleteGod, no, please... *whimpers*
ReplyDeleteInteresting post. I have to agree, especially with your first paragraph. As a Dean fan I miss the bad-ass hunter Dean (and like I said, the big!brother!Dean)... I hope he'll come back to us soon.... *sniffles*
ReplyDeleteI don't want to pick a fight, but episode 15 was the first Sam-centric episode we've had all season, so unless Cas gets lost on his way back to Supernatural and doesn't show up in episode 17, and the Leviathans don't hog any future episodes, it's highly unlikely that this will be split half and half.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you though, that not every episode before this one was Dean centric. I interpret the "centric" word a little more strictly than some. For me, an episode is character-centric if it not only leans more toward one character, but also moves the character's story forward a little or tells us something we didn't already know about him. Most episodes aren't character centric. Some are mostly about moving the plot forward, and some have character development but are pretty balanced between more than one character.
I would say this has been the breakdown so far.
Ep 1 - Cas centric
Ep 2 - Plot (Leviathan)/balanced - both Sam and Dean had big personal stories (Dean lost Cas and then started to lose Sam; Sam was going crazy)
Ep 3 - Balanced (Sam had a bigger connection to the MOTW, but it moved Dean's story forward, not Sam's.)
Ep 4 - Dean centric
Ep 5 - Balanced
Ep 6 - Plot/Balanced
Ep 7 - Dean centric
Ep 8 - Balanced, but with mostly Dean POV
Ep 9 - Plot/Bobby centric
Ep 10 - Bobby centric
Ep 11 - Dean centric
Ep 12 - Dean centric
Ep 13 - Dean centric
Ep 14 - Balanced
Ep 15 - Sam centric
But to be honest, I don't really care so much about having an equal balance as I do that the show is doing justice to the stories I care about. I care about Sam's story and have been waiting the for the Hell fallout since Swan Song. I also think Sam was seriously jipped last year. I don't consider the soulless part as telling Sam's storyline. I spent most of it convinced something evil had ridden Sam's body back from Hell and that Sam was somewhere else. If there had been some payoff from that storyline - such as learning more about Sam's character from that period, the soulless period making some long-term impact on Sam's character development, or even soulless Sam being tied closely to the mytharc (Cas and Crowley deal) - then I would think differently. Instead it went nowhere where Sam was concerned. It served as a plot device to move the Dean/Cas relationship forward (causing a rift), but it wasn't about Sam. We could have had some Sam character development in the second half, but instead the writers set up the wall as a plot device to stop Sam from speaking whenever he was about to say anything with substance.
Anyway, the issue is really about quality, not quantity. This last episode was very good, but we have never been guaranteed that Sam's story will be given justice in what's left of the season. And based on past history, some people are skeptical that we'll see much more like that.
"The third season-All about keeping Sam safe."
ReplyDeleteReally? I saw it as trying to keep Dean out of Hell. I'm curious - what do you think they were they keeping Sam safe from?
" the fourth season, yes Dean comes back from hell in the beginning,
(remember he went to hell for Sam.) Now enter Cas, the rest Sam."
About two thirds of the series was about the appearance of the angels and figuring out what their motivations were regarding Dean, Dean's PTSD and his role as the "righteous man" who broke the first seal. The last third focused more on Sam/Ruby/Lucifer.
"the fifth season-more demon blood, Sam lets Lucifer in, Sam goes to hell."
The fifth season was mostly about Dean and the angels and whether Dean would say yes to Michael. Demon blood was only in four episodes, and the idea that Sam would say yes to Lucifer and go to Hell only surfaced in the last few episodes.
"Sixth season -Lisa, Ben, and souless Sam."
You forgot a minor storyline - Cas (Dean's best friend) goes dark, plots with Crowley, is partly responsible for the Mother of All Monsters being let out of Purgatory, and opens a doorway to Purgatory.
"7th season- Cas,Sam and Lucifer, oh ok let's see some Dean too."
Yeah, "some Dean," a lot of Bobby, and the Leviathans. We've only had Sam/Lucifer in three episodes so far - 20% of the episodes.
I'll give you seasons 1 and 2 as being more Sam centric though.
Your comments are well-though out, logical, and you offer examples to support your arguments. Those who present unsupported opinions realize they can't offer valid counter-arguments and resort to reducing the whole conversation by being dismissive and trivializing. Don't let the obtuse posters get to you. I enjoy reading your posts and find that I agree with you probably 100% of the time.
ReplyDeleteLOL "apart" and "a part" mean two totally different things. I agree with you that Sam is very much "apart" of things going on in the story.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Thank you for clarifying.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely. I am all for the funny but when it hits the ridiculous, I'm usually out. Dancing Dean is not something I need to see this close to the season finale. However, I am all for dancing Jensen and Jared in the outtakes.
ReplyDeleteI believe Season 1 & 2 were also more Dean than Sam; though not by much. Sam definitely had an interesting, mysterious arc, but Season 1 was mostly information about hunting and the search for Dad. Dean was primary in the hunting arc with Sam as his backup and Sam was primary in the myth arc with Dean as his protector. Sam's myth arc didn't really start making a serious impact until Season 2.
ReplyDeleteThen, in Season 2 we started off with a WHOLE bunch of Dean angst. We had his guilt over dad dying for him and the big question of what dad told him. Yes, the secret was about Sam, but the whole first half was all about Dean. Season 2 was the most balanced season, but season 1 was also well balanced.
So far, the only season where there is even the possibility of the season being Sam centric is Season 2. But, there was just so much Dean. We started with In My Time of Dying (an extremely Dean heavy episode) and ended with AHBL 2 (another very Dean heavy episode) where Dean just happened to kill the Big Bad that was at the center of the first 2 seasons. Yes, the YED had plans for Sam that we find out a little about during the last 2 episodes... But, to me, that doesn't compare to all of the information we got about Dean. We also have the incredibly Dean heavy What is and What Should Never Be and No Exit. The only really heavy Sam episodes were Heart and AHBL 1. Other epsiodes that "seem" to be very Myth Arc heavy (Croatoan and Houses of the Holy) had tons about Dean in them.
Seasons 1 & 2 are good examples of how to balance a season, but they weren't "all about Sam". They were about Hunting and the Family Business as much as they were about the myth arc.
I wont get into last season as Dean being the pov brother he doesnt really miss out on anything and we didnt have Sam for half a season and then the second half it was not very Sam -centric in fact his wall wasnt touched upon until the finale so although I do think the Lisa/Ben sl could of been done better in the very nature of Deans view of the world he is heavily involved anyway.
ReplyDeleteThis season outside of 1 and 2 and 15 we havent really dealt with Sams hallucinations we have in fact dealt far more with Deans depression . Sam this season is supposed to be dealing with something so damaging it is surprising he has functioned at all so it is fine for Dean to 'find himself' or realize Sam isnt a baby but Sam is in serious trouble here and the show failed to convey that for the best part of 13 episodes and while showing us Deans struggles Sams can get lost and then people dont take it seriously .
The truth is Sam has been drowning all season and we didnt see it because we were seeing Deans problems where I think it was possible to do both keep us in touch with what Sam was dealing with and convey Deans depression .
In season 6 there was always lots to discuss about Sam because we didn't know ANYTHING. He came back from Hell, was definitely different, and it was a total mystery why until episode 7 because they gave us NOTHING. We just got to see Dean's reaction to the differences in Sam. When Dean came back from Hell, Lazarus Rising followed him every step of the way. We got to go on Dean's journey of discovery with him. They didn't even pick up Sam in the episode until it was nearly half over.
ReplyDeleteWhen Sam comes back from Hell we get to follow Dean on his journey of discovery again. We are with him every step of the way while he is living his life, missing Sam, and finally getting poisoned by the Djinn. Again we didn't pick up Sam in the episode until it was nearly half over.
What difference does it make if it is interesting to talk about Dean's story in an interview? Everybody may have been talking about "What's Wrong With Sam?", but everybody was watching Dean dig into the mystery, Dean worrying about Sam, Dean with Castiel and their special bond, Dean being Bobby's favorite, Dean with Lisa and Ben, and Dean wanting to kill soul-less Sam in his sleep.
Don't get me wrong, but I wish you could stop screaming. It doesn't make your argument more valid, you know...
ReplyDeleteJust want to pop in again and say another well done post.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I agreed with you it apparently "offended" someone and the post was deleted, which amazes me when I read some of the snarky responses you get.
Who's screaming? I'm not screaming. In case you haven't noticed, there's no way to emphasize words with italics in these comments, so I used capitalization for emphasis. It doesn't mean I'm screaming. If I were screaming I"D WRITE LIKE THIS AND USE ALL CAPITALS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS! See the difference? Also, if you notice, about half the capitalized words in my comment are abbreviations like MOTW or POV that are grammatically supposed to be capitalized, having nothing to do with emphasis or volume or whatever. But I'm not screaming, or not intending to scream - I don't know what you mean by "don't get me wrong". But obviously, as this exchange is proof of, it's easy to miscommunicate online when all you have are typed words without tone or body language, so I'm just going to let this go.
ReplyDeleteLOL thanks - I mean to respond to you before but then I couldn't find the comment. Really? It got deleted? That seems a little over the top. I don't recall there being anything offensive in it at all. But thanks for the support - it's nice to get a supportive comment rather than a snarky one. :)
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY. When the boys split up, we tend to almost always follow Dean on his journey, and only rejoin Sam's POV when he's back with Dea. If we're lucky, we get a tiny flashback that tells us almost nothing, like the flashback to his time with Ruby that still didn't explain major plot points like HOW Sam got addicted to demon blood in the first place, etc. Which means that lots of people ended up resenting Sam for his behavior because they never got the insight into his actions/emotions that would allow them to be sympathetic towards him. I would have LOVED to have seen Sam's journey upon leaving hell, even in glimpses - how he met up with the Campbells, what they thought of him and his behavior re: being soulless, etc. Even though we didn't get to see more than a few moments of Dean in hell, we still got to see him IN hell. But not so much as a glimpse for Sam. The closest we get is his little flashback of the meathooks, which is not really comparable. When Sam goes on his little camping trip out in the desert, we don't see what he does to stay sane or balanced - we see Dean in a bar complaining to a bartender. If it were Dean out in the desert, you can bet we'd be seeing what he was doing. When they split up after the Amy thing, do we see even a MOMENT of Sam on his own, how he feels, what he thinks? Nope - we follow Dean, and only rejoin Sam once Dean finds him in the restaurant. Which leaves Sam looking (to some) like a petulant child for walking away (or "running away" as some fans insist he "always" does *eyeroll*) because we never get to see his POV on the matter. The show is shown through primarily Dean's eyes, even when events pertain to Sam. It's all about how Dean sees it, how Dean feels about it, etc. That's most apparent when they split up - If they DO show Sam's POV at all (like Scarecrow) we STILL get to see what Dean's doing. But often they give us Dean's POV without so much as a glimpse of Sam's. We can't have Sam's POV without Dean's, but we sure as heck get Dean's POV without Sam's. I can't think of a single time that they split up and we got ONLY Sam's POV.
ReplyDeleteI Know What You Did Last Summer was the episode where I started to "give up" on seeing anything important about Sam. After being totally floored by Sam's 40 second appearance in In the Beginning so soon after the positively epic (but exceedingly Dean heavy) Lazarus Rising I started counting down the episodes until I would get to see something significant about Sam.
ReplyDeleteMetamorphosis allowed us to see something about Sam ("I'm a whole new kind of freak"), but it wasn't a Sam episode.
Then, Monster Movie came and we are back to another Dean episode. Yellow Fever allowed Sam to kill the MotW, but Dean had the good parts. We got to finally see some of how Dean felt and what Dean remembered about Hell.
It's a Great Pumpkin was a fabulous episode for both brothers, but still no "Sam episode". Finally we get to IKWYDLS and we get "Dean, THE Dean", Alistair (I'm wearing a pediatrician), and some flashbacks of Sam. I loved the flashbacks, but when compared to the incredible monologue that Dean had after Sam died, let's just say I was a little disappointed to see Sam's story gloss over everything and hop to Ruby's return. What about a conversation with Bobby? What about his decision to bury Dean? I know they couldn't tell us about the demon blood, but they could have given us something!
For the last part of your post, there is one episode that was very heavily Sam POV where we didn't get "much" Dean POV. That would be AHBL1. I compare AHBL1 to On the Head of a Pin. They both had comparable time for opposite brothers. Plus, the lesser brother had a significant part (although very short). However, so far Dean is the only brother that gets to have entire episodes all to himself. I would count What Is and What Should Never Be, In the Beginning, and The End as having practically zero Sam. Some people count the whole first half of season 6 also, but I really liked soul-less Sam and even though I didn't get to know anything about "Sam" when he was involved, I thought I was seeing Sam in Two and a Half Men and Third Man. I had no explanations for the weird behavior, but I did enjoy all of those episodes except for Live Free or Twihard. I have never seen Twilight and I just didn't "get" some of the jokes that made my sister love the episode.
In early seasons we had episodes that were very heavy for one brother or the other which tended to put the lesser brother out of sight or tied up so that we could explore central brother. That would be episodes like Heart, Provenance, or In My Time of Dying.
Now days the episodes where Dean is gotten "out of the way" are few and far between. I believe that Unforgiven is a comparable episode, but I can't think of another. For When the Levees Break, Dean had a very big part. For the long awaited first "Sam centric" episode in Season 4, I Know What You Did Last summer, had HUGE Dean parts. That is where we met Anna and Alistair. Both characters were pretty much only concerned with Dean. So, we might get a bit more time with Sam due to flashbacks, but the lead in the episode still seems to be Dean... kind of like the Girl Next Door.
You know, before In the Beginning, the time Sam and/or Dean were in an episode and how involved they were was never an issue for me, because it seemed to be pretty balanced. Dean totally controlled What Is and What Should Never Be, and right after that we get AHBL1. Sam totally controlled Mystery Spot, and right after that we get Jus In Bello. There were exceptions... like In My Time of Dying and The Kids are Alright that don't really have an episode near it to balance out the skewed POV, but it didn't happen too often until Season 4, so it didn't make "much" impact.
Oh, I see. Maybe I read it wrong then because for me you 'sounded' angry and sometimes it makes people kind of afraid to talk to you and get jumped and screamed at. But you're right, it's hard to figure people mood on the Internet,
ReplyDeleteI'm curious and wanted to know why your post got deleted. I still can see it on my phone app. You called who doesn't agree with her "obtuse posters", so yeah, I can understand why someone got offended.
ReplyDeleteInteresting... Let's see how this is going to play out.
ReplyDeleteLooks like the Hellatus is getting to some of you already. I think I'll stay out of the whole Dean ep vs. Sam ep conversation. Most of this season has been good so far, let's not turn this into some kind of "who is the main character" fight.
ReplyDeleteNope, not screaming, and not mad. And I've never "jumped" anyone or screamed at anyone, so there's certainly no reason for anyone to be "afraid" of me. I may disagree with people, and defend my POV, but I don't ever personally attack or demean anyone no matter how strongly I disagree with them.
ReplyDeleteYou, my friend, are the voice of reason.
ReplyDelete"Dean: There's actually fans. Not many of them, but still.... For fans, they sure do complain a lot." 4x18
I'm going with the TV.com synopsis "Dean starts dancing himself to death" being a foiler or not a literal interpretation as well. It would make little sense for Dean suddenly to take up dancing. The thing is Dean has already been obsessive about the need to hunt Dick Roman and Levis, nearly to point of almost getting killed twice (in 7.13 and 7.15) because his normally excellent "spidey senses" were slightly dulled. If he become more dangerously obsessed than he is already I can see Dean going after Roman or a "Levi nest" with inadequate intel, planning or "back up" as Sam *most likely* won't be sleeping due to Luci "pestering" him and Dean again *most likely* won't notice because he's affected by the curse.
ReplyDeleteThank You!!!! And I agree season 7 is very good. I'm happy with it!! xD
ReplyDeleteThanks:) Great quote:D
ReplyDeletei wonder if this episode has anything to do with the story of the red shoes where a ballerina makes a deal with the devil that if she wears the shoes she will be a ballerina but she has to dance at all times when she is wearing the shoes. if that's the case, i can't wait to see dean's mad dance skills :)
ReplyDeleteOkay, is Dean going to be dancing? If so. This will be fabulous to watch. Jensen is always claiming that he is a bad dancer.
ReplyDeleteThis one made my day. I got my Sam Winchester badge.
ReplyDeleteThat was not a curse on Dean. It was the Trickster trying to prepare Sam for Dean's death. He was ill in Yellow Fever, but he's never really been cursed. This ought to be good.
ReplyDeleteThis bickering over who has more makes me sick. I'm just glad Supernatural is on. The boys are getting back to family. I really hate going anywhere any more because have to complain. I don't care whose story line is being told as long as there is one.
ReplyDeleteEven at the Cons the boys have said that. That up until season 4, it was Sam's show. Dean was there to protect little brother.
ReplyDeleteThey both said Dean did not have a story arc until season 4 and even then it was more Sam. Just clarifying what Jensen and Jared said. So, since they are the actors, I'll go with their point of view.
ReplyDeleteI think I will go to my Supernatural - No Bashing Allowed page on Facebook and forget this ever happened. I do not like anyone who gets a narrow minded way off base point of view and can not discuss anything without finding fault. Thanks for a wonderful start to new day.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you're replying to the right post, but like I said, this to me has little to do with the term "cursed" and more to do with the fact that he's the victim again. I'm just more a fan of the bad-ass!Protector!Dean than victim!Dean, that's all. *Shrugs*
ReplyDeleteJensen also said Sam might get the sl but the show is Dean centric so take any of it in which ever way . I do think Sam has had the story but I think Dean has had the storytelling which is why we have such Dean centeral pov . Dont get me wrong I dont think Sam has had nothing or it has all been terrible but I do think Sam was so embedded in the mytharc that the person that is Sam got lost .
ReplyDeleteNo offense, but I'd want to the exact quotes and know more about the context of these comments before I take them as gospel.
ReplyDeleteI had read that there was originally a different plan for season 3 (that Sam would use his powers to save Dean from going to Hell), and if that had happened, then yes, Sam's season 3 storyline would have been bigger than Dean's. But that's not what happened. Sam didn't have much of a season 3 storyline (other than Ruby's interest in him and hints that Lilith was also interested in him). Dean did go to Hell and was rescued by angels, and the angel storyline took on a life of it's own - becoming the dominant storyline for the next two seasons.
And no disrespect to Jensen and Jared, but they're just people interpreting a piece of fiction like the rest of us. They're closer to it, and they may have some inside information on the intent, but their interpretation doesn't make other people's interpretations invalid.
There's no bashing here. My post and Debbie's were disputing a post that every season is about Sam. You can disagree with our points of view, but people don't label other view points as "narrow minded" because they differ from your own. Calling someone "narrow minded" may be bashing though.
ReplyDelete"I had read that there was originally a different plan for season 3 (that
ReplyDeleteSam would use his powers to save Dean from going to Hell)"
Yeah, I read this too. God, how I wish they had used this plan... *Goes to the corner to cry*
I agree. I love the angels, but that would have been a much better story.
ReplyDeleteAwe man sounds like another great funny Supernatural episode coming soon can't wait.
ReplyDeleteWho did I bash? Cannot discuss anything? I put in my points starting with "I believe" unlike the person that started this discussion that stated blankly that season 1 & 2 were all about saving Sam. How are my points about other plots in the seasons a "narrow minded way off base point of view"?
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you are disagreeing with my statements that Dean was the primary character in the hunting arc while Sam was the primary in the myth arc in seasons 1 & 2? Was that where you thought I was narrow minded?
I believe the quote was that until season 4 Sam had the "Myth Arc", which means he was the primary character in the Myth Arc, not the only character.
ReplyDeleteThere are several arcs each season.
Kripke's explanation about all of the Dean time in the beginning of
season 4 was because they had to spin up the Angels and Dean's part of
the Myth Arc. Until then, Dean was Sam's protector in the Myth Arc just
like Sam was Dean's backup in the Hunting Arc.In Season 4 Dean moved into the primary spot in the Myth Arc with Castiel as his guide / protector.
Sam still had a principle significant role in the Myth Arc but it was in the background until 4x16 (On the Head of a Pin). We knew that Sam was using his powers and was getting stronger, but we didn't know how. We just knew he didn't like it.
The writers' strike really messed up Season 3. I also heard that Sam was supposed to go darkside and use his power to save Dean. There was also supposed to be a chunk about Mary in Season 3; I am assuming they were going to introduce the fact that she was a hunter.
Season 3 started with Ruby popping in to save the day and Dean wondering if there was anything wrong with Sam. Then, we had Sam Winchester must die. We had more hints about Sam's destiny in Malleus Maleficarum and Jus in Bello, but I would hardly say Sam was primary in either of those. Sam was practically mute in Jus in Bello. However, even with the abrupt end to the season and the big break, Season 3 is one of my favorite seasons. Many of my all time favorite episodes are in Season 3. If we would have had a complete season with the originally intended ending, I'm sure it would be my favorite season. Right now I fluctuate between 2 and 3.
Probably not the time or place, but I was trying to descrive season 6 and 7 to a new fan. And in 2 years, I couldn't think of any significant "win" for the Winchesters, except Eve being killed, but that was a red herring, and 2 minor characters in filler episodes. Nothing meaningful at all.
ReplyDeleteAnd now Castiel is set to return for some big redemption arc, and will probably be the one to save the day in the end, making the Winchesters passive in their own story, again.
Sorry for the off topic rant, but - 2 years, and nada to show for it. And we're running out of episodes to tell the tale.
I don't consider Raphael a "win" considering what it cost. And I don't think the "restarting apocalypse" was a valid story to begin with, considering what it took to break the seals, Lilith etc, I don't believe Raphael really had the juice to do it, if the previous 5 year canon is respected...
ReplyDeleteYou weren't bashing anyone, and you weren't even bashing seasons 1 and 2. You said they were good examples of how to balance a season.
ReplyDeleteThis is probably the comedic episode before they break our hearts in 7.17...
ReplyDelete