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Supernatural - Episode 6.08 - All Dogs Go To Heaven - Sneak Peek

Nov 8, 2010

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65 comments:

  1. Ekas MatahariNovember 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM

    proof it sammy....., ^_^

    ReplyDelete
  2. Tonya SantanaNovember 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM

    They are both fanominal actors! Love Jensen and Jarad! Its just they've made the character Dean into a whiny person! I remember back when he was on the verge of possibly turning demon b/c of the demon virus and dean refused to shoot him and bound to do whatever it took to save him. Even back in the days of the demon blood drinking he still didn't turn his back on Sam but now the moment Sam has no soul he is so easy to dismiss him even being his brother its getting a bit frustrating b/c they've been through far worse in my opinion!

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  3. cns3eNovember 8, 2010 at 7:41 PM

    What kind of situation did Sammy say it was?

    I hope Dean and Sam can come up with a plan to get Crowley before they lose their "souls" to him...meaning their integrity and self-respect.

    ReplyDelete
  4. cns3eNovember 8, 2010 at 7:43 PM

    I can understand where Dean is coming from. Sam has lied to him about so much in such a short time frame, add that to him not having his soul, not feeling the brotherly connection, I can totally understand Dean continuing to question if it really is his brother and not just an empty shell. Dean is helping Sam to get his soul back and he is doing that for his brother! But RoboSam is not his brother. Just a man with his memories and DNA.

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  5. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 7:45 PM

    And this is how I love the boys:

    Both in the Impala in the middle of a ...can I even call this a chick-flick moment?

    I give Sam points for at least trying...

    And I love how easyly Dean gets distracted when women are mentioned.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 7:49 PM

    Dean is going at this the wrong way. Sam's lack of a soul has taken away his emotions and feelings so he won't get really pissed about anything and he's not going to be able to empathize with Dean about anything, but that doesn't mean his ability to distinguish right and wrong are gone.

    Sam, now devoid of feeling and emotion, is now lead by logic and reason. Life is a math equation to him. Until he gets his soul back, he's a cross between a Vulcan and Predator. Dean needs to understand this and take advantage of it instead of just being frustrated about his situation all the time.

    Sam, without a soul, is more cold and calculating which means he is more dangerous, but he is on Dean's side. Dean will just have to be Sam's conscience for a while.

    ReplyDelete
  7. tvmonkeyNovember 8, 2010 at 8:13 PM

    I think he said it was a 'crappy' situation.

    ReplyDelete
  8. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 8:21 PM

    Agreed, agreed and agreed.
    I like that you don´t write Sam off just as RoboSam.
    He is still a person... with a handicap. He can´t help it.

    But while Dean shouldn´t take everything Sam does and say personal, he can´t help it either. He still feels and it´s amplified by everything regarding Sam. I see poor Dean switch from brother- to father-mode and back so often, even my head is spinning.

    And then there is Crowley.

    It is a crap situation!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 8:31 PM

    Crap, indeed! Sh**ty situations are a hallmark of Supernatural. It wouldn't be the same without them. lol.

    Here's a crap situation to ponder - Sam and Dean are chomping at the bit to get Sam's soul back, but what condition will his soul be in when he gets it back?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Milla M.November 8, 2010 at 8:48 PM

    The question is, is he really? I'm still not sure even though everyone says he is...

    ReplyDelete
  11. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 8:53 PM

    "that doesn't mean his ability to distinguish right and wrong are gone."
    Yes, it does. We saw him making crappy choices and still couldn't see how wrong they were.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 9:02 PM

    Only when you get emotion and feeling involved. Sam let Dean turn because letting him turn (A) would lead to the nest (B) which would allow them to eradicate it (C). Afterwords, Sam would turn him back. Emotionless, calculating, yet very effective. A + B = C. That's exactly my point.

    Sam did what was necessary to get the job done and had a plan to turn back Dean when all was said and done. Was it ridiculously risky? Yes. Would he have done it if he had a soul? No. That's why I said Dean needs to be his conscience for now.

    Sam wasn't wrong, just careless. That's what happens, sans soul.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Pigeon666November 8, 2010 at 9:10 PM

    Not sure how I feel about this promo. Sam seems to genuinely want to remain with Dean, and that makes me feel good. However, I'm not really sure if Dean wants to remain with Sam(I don't blame him, I wouldn't want to be stuck with a souless guy). And that makes me feel bad. Furthurmore, even if Sam gets his soul back, who knows how brutally messed up he'll be? Maybe souless Sam is the lesser of two evils. And this makes me incredibly sad.

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  14. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 9:10 PM

    I get what you're trying to say. I do. And I even agree with part of that.

    But it's not true that "only when emotions and feelings are involved". Dean could have been killed. Lisa and Ben, too. He could have killed other people. It wasn't just careless. It was a wrong choice, even if it wasn't his own brother. As much it was wrong of him to make that baby a bait. Or not trying to save Dean's neighbors. Or lying to Dean about what Samuel was doing. I can go on.

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  15. PatriciaNovember 8, 2010 at 9:18 PM

    Ok. please Dean is not whiny, he is trying to find answers. How can you call this guy whiny? He practically raised himself an his brother. He grew up in a world where he was grown up before he needed to be. Faced many things that would make the average person a "whiny" basket case. He endured torture in hell beyond conception, and was forced to torture to stop his own. Anyone who goes through all that does not whine! It makes him stronger than he even knows.
    Plus your meatsuit is not you- the body is just a vessel for the soul, the soul is who you are. This is not really Sam, and Dean, knowing his brother better than anyone, knows that. Just because the body has memories of the soul, doesn't mean the body is actually a part of the soul.
    Everything that Dean has done his whole life has been for Sam. He loves his brother and wants him back. He will find Sam(his soul) and save him, then the brothers will be reunited for real. Dean has every right not to trust this shell of Sam, especially with all the things it has done to him.
    When we all finally get the real Sam back let's hope we get to see how he really "feels".

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  16. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 9:22 PM

    Oh, I am pondering over this question since the whole soul thing was a whisper in the wind.

    Since this is Supernatural and I heard rumors that Sam´s time in hell was much worse than Dean´s I can only imagine that this will be one shattered soul. When Sam gets it back he´s bound to crash. Not feeling for a year and suddenly all those feelings rush back at once, Sam not beeing used to deal with them day by day. Than there is still a little thing called hell (we do not know what happened there).

    Maybe Sam just drops unconcious, overwhelmed. Or his feelings start to pile until he snaps and does something stupid (like punching Dean uncouncious). Or he starts a downward spiral of depression, a gun to his head...

    Just standing there and saying "hey, I got my soul back, thanks", would be ridiculous.

    Either way Dean will have to catch him and put him back together.

    Then again with SPN it could be a complete diffrent outcome: What if Sam don´t see the benefit to deal with all those emotions who are holding him back? Maybe he thinks that all these emotions will hinder him as a hunter. What if he sabotages the quest to getting his soul back. Worse he destroys it (if that´s even possible).

    See what my twisted little mind comes up with when I have to much time on my hands... :)

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  17. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 9:23 PM

    You're kind of getting around to my point here. For someone like Sam, his choice doesn't expand beyond vampires and Dean. Taking into account Ben, Lisa or anyone else doesn't enter into it for him. He can only focus on the problem in front of him and collateral damage is peripheral. For Sam, it was the right choice. For Sam, it makes sense. For anyone with a soul, it's not worth the risk.

    Everything else you mention can be rationalized too if you count people as simple factors in an equation and not people with families, children, feelings, lives, etc. Why you believe it's wrong is the same reason Dean does. Sam isn't burdened by those feelings and it's why he just needs some supervision by someone with a conscience.

    As much as people like to think right and wrong are absolutes, they're not. It's all a matter of perspective. From soulless (Vulcan + Predator) Sam's perspective, his decisions were the right ones because they brought about the desired results and completed objectives. From Dean's, they were horrible, unfeeling, robotic decisions that put people at risk. Yet, as they say, the truth isn't always black and white.

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  18. jillyanneNovember 8, 2010 at 9:23 PM

    Dean is scared - when Dean is scared he gets pissed off. And he's confused.

    He doesn't know who to trust - even Cas is acting weird i.e. kid/Sam/Grandpa torture, not recognising soullessness, not recognising demons on sight, letting Balthazar go, even angel sarcasm, and he's distracted by the heavenly civil war;
    Captain Chrome Dome aka Grandpa Creepy (don't know which I prefer) just gets shadier and shadier;
    Sam is not the Sam he knows (for whatever reason);
    Monsters in general are acting strange, and now this Crowley/purgatory/alpha thing.
    He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and he doesn't know who to turn to (Bobby where are you?)

    It's gonna be interesting to see where all this is leading.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Ekas MatahariNovember 8, 2010 at 9:26 PM

    can u tell me in epi what sam lie abt samuel did is? maybe i missed that part..., cause as i know sam not lie abt what samuel doing, he just cant tell the diff abt what samuel do is weird/wrong..., but he tell dean what samuel do, catch a thing keep them lock n interogate them...,
    there is thin diff abt lie n not telling u i guess..., :D

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  20. chris684November 8, 2010 at 9:28 PM

    I'm with Dean on this one. For all they know, what they're doing for Crowley could be helping him to commit mass murder. They've both always been willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, and the old Sam wouldn't have asked Dean to sign on blindly to what Crowley was asking. One of the last things old Sam asked Dean was to let Sam sacrifice himself to put Lucifer back in his cage and to promise not to try to get Sam out of Hell.

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  21. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 9:34 PM

    Heh... I think we are disagreeing because you're seeing/posting things from Sam's perspective. And I agree with your reasoning applying to SAM.

    But you said that him being soulless doesn't make him unable to see the difference between right and wrong. That's what I can't agree with. What he did was right in his eyes, like you said. And I can't argue that he had some reasons to believe it was. But I can't call it "distinguish right and wrong" properly.

    So, I'll just say that I agree with you when you said "That's why I said Dean needs to be his conscience for now."... That will work! :)

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  22. Ekas MatahariNovember 8, 2010 at 9:35 PM

    i hear abt that too..., i really want to know what mean worse is? i heard dean told sam what happen to him in hell.., i cant imagine what worse than that..., do u have theory what is?

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  23. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 9:37 PM

    Humm... No, you didn't miss it. I mixed things up. I was trying to post "lying to Dean about not let him being turned, hiding from Dean about what Samuel was doing". Then I got carried away and posted a wrong info. My apologies.

    ReplyDelete
  24. jade04November 8, 2010 at 9:39 PM

    I agree with you to a point. Dean put Ben & Lisa at risk when he chose to visit them. He's a hunter, he knows what happens when someone is turned and yet he chose to take that risk. That was his decision.

    About the baby - not trying to argue, just understand. I've read over and over that Sam used the baby as bait - what exactly did he do that constituted using the baby as bait? I don't understand what he should have done differently...

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  25. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 9:39 PM

    Don't forget that Sam's soul has been in Hell for much, much longer than Dean's soul AND it's in a cage with Lucifer.

    However, there's another possibility here that's not so dreary. Sam's soul may be special. He was altered to lead a demon army but rejected Azazel. He drank gallon after gallon of Demon blood without going "dark side" and overpowered Lucifer himself. He defied biblical prophecy and prevented Earth's destruction.

    Sam's soul could be an ultimate weapon that scares the hell out of Crowley. That could be another reason that he left his soul in the pit.

    Did you ever wonder why, if Sam was supposed to lead a demon army, does his power only work on demons? Shouldn't his power work on the demons' enemy instead? Logically, Sam's power should work on anyone using a vessel. That includes angels. Sam and his super-soul could be what keeps the balance between Heaven and Hell.

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  26. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 9:40 PM

    Totally agree. Thank you!

    ReplyDelete
  27. Ekas MatahariNovember 8, 2010 at 9:42 PM

    no apologies, no worry i just afraid if i miss something since i really love this show, n really love the brothers, n i want to know all detail....,

    peace ^_*

    ReplyDelete
  28. DahneNovember 8, 2010 at 9:43 PM

    Why was it so dark? It was almost hard to see. It seems like a lot of the episodes are shot in near dark again like they were season 1. CW, did you slash the lighting budget?

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  29. Bruce_FNovember 8, 2010 at 9:48 PM

    Now you're getting it. What's right and wrong to Sam is very different to what's right and wrong to Dean. And, you're right, you shouldn't call it "distinguish right and wrong properly" because it's subjective. No absolutes. Sam's just going to have to trust Dean's perspective sometimes if he doesn't want unnecessary fallout from his cold, calculating decisions.

    This has been a fun debate!

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  30. Nic SNfanNovember 8, 2010 at 9:48 PM

    But Dean was not 100% Dean at that time either - Samuel said that himself. And Sam knew that Dean would be different. I'm just glad that he could stop himself before it was too late.

    As for the baby, it was Sam who heard that shapeshifter saying that the Alpha wanted the baby. Then he took the baby to Samuel's place (with a lot of hunters) to wait for him. Sad it didn't work, though.

    I totally believed Sam when he told Dean that he didn't use the baby as a bait. But after seeing him lie to Dean's face about him being turned and even use their brotherhood as a massive excuse for Dean to believe him... I'm sorry, but I can't say I believe him anymore.

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  31. Ekas MatahariNovember 8, 2010 at 9:55 PM

    Love ur theory...., i never thinking abt how special sam soul is..., maybe u rite, that why whoever pull sam back keep the soul..., (but i want to believe sam soul trapped in lucifer cage not in crowley hand) O_o

    ReplyDelete
  32. jillyanneNovember 8, 2010 at 10:44 PM

    That's an interesting point. Up to now I've noticed the light/colors seemed brighter than usual this season, but it got noticeably darker in Family Matters - not a coincidence I'm thinking.

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  33. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 10:44 PM

    Yes it will be.

    And they were´t lying when they told us that nothing is as it seem...

    ReplyDelete
  34. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 10:44 PM

    No not really. Even my imagination stops at beeing tourtured and tourture others...
    Worse? I have no idea.
    But I also heard, there will be one episode, that tells us, what happend to Sam in hell.
    We just have to be patient.

    ReplyDelete
  35. airbatNovember 8, 2010 at 10:44 PM

    You are a vulcan mistermind!
    No I did not think of that, because that would be a storyarc of biblical proportions - so to speak.
    I was only thinking in my little box.
    But now I will loose sleep over this. This is so great of an idea that I have nothing to counter that.
    I bow to you and hope Sera has the same idea or at least along the lines.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Pigeon666November 8, 2010 at 11:11 PM

    Oh God - things getting even worse? I can't even imagine what that would be like. Sam has no soul, Dean got dumped by Lisa, Cas Is fighting a war in Heaven and the brothers are working for Crowley. I f things get worse... But yeah, the lighting is darker, but I noticed it in YCHTT, right near the end where Sam gets beat up. And that doesn't imply good things.

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  37. TinaNovember 8, 2010 at 11:15 PM

    WOW totally agree!! Sam is def trying and I love they brought the humor back... I missed it!! ahhhh I can't wait for this eps :)

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  38. Kaitlyn JNovember 8, 2010 at 11:45 PM

    Seems like a "Jerk-Bitch" moment to me. But I guess we're not there yet...Eventually though, they can maybe through one our way as a sign that Dean trusts his brother again?

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  39. Kaitlyn JNovember 8, 2010 at 11:49 PM

    That also raises the question of why he was hunting in the first place. Because he thought it was the "right" thing to do? Because it is the only thing he knew to do (from his memories)?
    It couldn't have been for revenge or any other driving emotion or instinct.

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  40. Kaitlyn JNovember 8, 2010 at 11:55 PM

    Anyone have any theories into how Cas' storyline fits into all this? And what the monsters are all really doing? (The war the alpha vamp was talking about)?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 12:05 AM

    That's a good question. He probably started hunting when he got back to regain some sense of normalcy. It's really all he's known for years now.

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  42. SuePoNovember 9, 2010 at 12:10 AM

    I understand your theory, but you're basing it on the assumption that Sam is telling the truth -- this time. He's been lying to Dean, leaving things out and he truly didn't even blink when he put his brother's life in danger to finish a hunt. And Dean is just supposed to believe him... again... because he says so? Looking at it from Dean's perspective, believing Sam is on his side is a something he can't just assume. He trusted Sam before, believed his brother could still be the brother he knew and look what happened. Now he has to be even more cautious because despite Sam's promises to prove he's with Dean, he hasn't proven he can be trusted. He was right when he said Sam had no instinct. He doesn't really know what's important and what's not at this point and, if he really is going to follow Dean's lead, Dean could deal. But Dean only has Sam's word and right now, that's not worth much.

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  43. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 12:25 AM

    I'm not basing it on Sam telling the truth. In fact, I don't expect Sam to tell the truth a lot while he has no soul. I expect Sam to do what he feels he needs to do in order to accomplish goals. Every time Sam has lied, it had a specific purpose. The lies were told to bring about desired results.

    Not once, in any of my posts did I say Dean should completely trust Sam. He shouldn't - not because Sam is evil but because the choices Sam has been making without his soul only take into account the desired result. The decisions he makes don't take into account how they may affect other people. Sam is going to lie, manipulate, tell half-truths, withhold information, etc. if he thinks it'll get the job done. He's going to need to be monitored and reigned in once in a while.

    That's what Sam needs Dean for.

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  44. Chanelle MontpetitNovember 9, 2010 at 12:25 AM

    omg... THAT WOULD BE EPIC! ahhaah. ha I'm in need of a bitch jerk moment ! okay im crazy i think i would cry of happyness HHAHAHAH. like if sam gives dean the amulet PLEASE GOD make it come back

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  45. Chanelle MontpetitNovember 9, 2010 at 12:26 AM

    LOVE IT!

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  46. Wilson CrawfordNovember 9, 2010 at 2:09 AM

    LIke I said, "Sam-Lite" not "NotSam" lol

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  47. SuePoNovember 9, 2010 at 2:19 AM

    Yeah, you kind of are. Your theory only works if Sam actually listens to Dean as his conscience. What exactly would make Dean believe Sam would do that? Because he says so? Not exactly convincing. So not trusting Sam because he has no way to know what Sam will do in a situation to accomplish whatever goals he sees as important. That isn't really a good basis for any kind of partnership. Dean can be Sam's conscience. All I'm saying is that he has no reason to believe Sam will actually abide by that. Yes, Sam needs Dean for that, but that doesn't mean he's going to know when he's crossing a line if he's convinced he's doing what needs to be done. Like Dean said, he has no instincts right now. How does someone who doesn't think he's doing anything wrong figure out when to listen to the guy who knows he is? As I see it, that's the major problem. Sam can want to 'get right' but in the heat of the moment, how will he know what is actually right? Will he do whatever Dean says? Or will he believe he knows best?

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  48. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 2:46 AM

    Of course it's not a good basis for a relationship. We're talking about someone without a soul here. This is just making the best of a horribly bad situation.

    Sam and Dean both have the same exact goal - to get back Sam's soul. The problem is Sam, without his soul, is probably willing to get his hands a lot dirtier to get it back. On to your queries:

    "How does someone who doesn't think he's doing anything wrong figure out when to listen to the guy who knows he is?"

    - Sam has already shown a minor capacity to concede to his brother in these matters (choosing Dean over Grandpa, not retaliating for Dean beating the hell out of him, letting Cas examine him) but this won't be 100% effective. Sam never listened to Dean all the time when he HAD a soul. If you're expecting anything close to that it's an unrealistic expectation.

    "Sam can want to 'get right' but in the heat of the moment, how will he know what is actually right? Will he do whatever Dean says? Or will he believe he knows best?"

    - As I said in other posts, Sam won't be focused on "getting right", he'll be focused on getting results. Sometimes it'll leave a lot of collateral damage. It's going to get real messy until Sam gets his soul. All Dean can do is keep talking to Sam, keep explaining things to him, and hold a more humane point of view when it comes to hunting. Sometimes Sam will listen, sometimes he won't.

    This isn't about keeping Sam a good, pure-hearted young man until they retrieve his soul. This is about mitigating as much damage as possible, because there will be plenty of collateral damage. Dean is basically teamed up with a Terminator. All he can do is keep pointing it in the right direction and cross his fingers.

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  49. KyelinnNovember 9, 2010 at 5:09 AM

    So...now Dean can be excused for any mistakes he's made because he wasn't 100% Dean at the time, but right now Sam is isn't 100% Sam and he's being torn up one side and down the other right now and him being soulless isn't a good enough of an excuse for some people? I'm sorry, but I don't feel that's very fair.

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  50. SuePoNovember 9, 2010 at 5:15 AM

    Which is exactly what he's doing. So back to your original comment. How is Dean going about this the wrong way? He's (so far) not walking away and pretty much laying the ground rules, telling Sam exactly what he thinks and letting Sam realize that if he wants help, it's up to him. If Sam is serious, he'll stay with Dean and listen -- which he has pledged to do. But my original point is, it's not up to Dean at all. It's up to Sam. Dean can only offer to keep Sam on the right side of the line, it;s up to Sam to actually listen and respond.

    ReplyDelete
  51. KyelinnNovember 9, 2010 at 5:16 AM

    Well, Sam-Lite is better than NotSam or Sam-Thing or whatever else people have been calling him. lol

    I dunno. I guess I'm in the minority that believe it is Sam, but a shell of who Sam once was because of the lack of soul. =/ I don't really know why I feel this way.

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  52. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 5:37 AM

    "How is Dean going about this the wrong way?"

    It's the "laying the ground rules" part. Dean is trying to get through to Sam like he's the old Sam. The yelling and the bitching and the barking orders is just going to fall on deaf ears. If he has any chance of getting through to Sam effectively, Dean is going to have to make a point, not just a rule when he talks.

    "It's not up to Dean at all. It's up to Sam."

    This is where we flat-out disagree. Dean is the one that has the bigger issue with Sam's behavior and his methods. To Sam, it's just a way to get things done. If Dean want's to help curtail that until Sam retrieves his soul, Dean is going to have to speak up to Sam and make a good, solid point to the contrary instead of barking at him. If that doesn't happen, Sam will go on being just as cold and ruthless as he has been.

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  53. Ekas MatahariNovember 9, 2010 at 8:48 AM

    ohhh well, i wait that epi..., really want to know what worse than tortured n torture other... O_o
    im starting thinking we will never know what happen with sam in hell..., thank for info ^_^

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  54. Ekas MatahariNovember 9, 2010 at 8:53 AM

    well, i join to ur minority group..., O_o cause i also believe it is Sam but lack of soul ^_^

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  55. Tonya SantanaNovember 9, 2010 at 1:02 PM

    Yeah I understand it too but I mean this one isn't his fault he didn't ask for his soul to get ripped outta him...Yes he shouldn't have lied but I mean I think Dean needs to realize whats done is done and the only thing to change it is to get his soul back and stop constantly telling him he's not his brother b/c its not going to change the fact or change the way sam acts. Its not like sam was a demon trying to pretend he's sam and has just been busted. Sam had no idea what was wrong with him and doesn't know any other way to act other than saying he's Dean's brother because he has the memories. I don't know just my thoughts Im really not condoning any ones actions...plus I mean all this did start when Dean started torturing people in hell so he's not innocent in this grant it we wouldn't have a show w/o that action haha

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  56. Tonya SantanaNovember 9, 2010 at 1:04 PM

    This is totally what I've been trying to say up above just can't find the right words for it haha kudos!

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  57. Tonya SantanaNovember 9, 2010 at 1:14 PM

    Just because you can distinguish from right and wrong doesn't mean you're going to choose the right one. He knew truing dean was wrong but it would yield the best results to get what they needed. If he had his soul he would've never done it b/c he knew it was wrong but they would still be looking for the alpha vamp b/c they wouldn't have any leads!

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  58. KyelinnNovember 9, 2010 at 3:18 PM

    Hehe well, I'm glad I'm not alone in this aspect! ^_^

    ReplyDelete
  59. SuePoNovember 9, 2010 at 4:27 PM

    So, if I understand you correctly, all the responsibility for keeping Sam from crossing the line falls on Dean? Why? Yes, Dean has an issue with Sam's behavior because Sam isn't Sam. Like Cas said, it poses an interesting philosophical question. Is a person still that person if he doesn't have a soul? I'd say no. Dean obviously doesn't see this version as his brother because the part that makes him Sam is gone. So Dean can simply be a guide, but there is no way he can force RoboSam to follow. And Dean is still human -- frustration, family loyalty and feelings in tact. So we will agree to disagree on this point. I don't believe anyone is responsible for anyone else's choices. That's the responsibility of the one making them. Maybe that's our philosophical difference here. Like Dean said, Sam knows better. He was taught better. Even without feelings, he still knows right from wrong and he's choosing wrong simply to get the job done. He's proven that by first lying about what he did and then apologizing when his lies were found out. Nobody, not even Dean, can change his behavior. Like Dean said "It's up to you."

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  60. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 7:18 PM

    Sorry SuePo, you don't understand me correctly. I said I disagreed with your belief that it's all up to Sam but I didn't say the opposite was true either.

    Again, you have to remember that Sam is only capable of so much without a soul. It's impossible for everything to be up to Sam because he would need to have an overriding, passionate desire to do the right thing. Without a soul, Sam is incapable of being truly passionate about anything. Hell, that goes for desire too while we're at it.

    Sam is only capable of so much now. It's up to Dean to fill in the rest. So to answer your question, Sam has to try and he will try to be good. Unfortunately, without a soul, there's only so much he can give. This is a 60/40 proposition at best and the bulk of that burden will be on Dean because it's impossible for Sam to give a full effort in this regard.

    You're asking something of Sam that requires desire and passion. To truly stay on the straight and narrow, Sam needs to make use of things like empathy, sympathy, and self-sacrifice. He needs to really care. To do ANY of this, he needs a soul which means Sam is incapable of giving 100% to anything that requires emotion, strong will, or strength of character.

    I won't get into the right and wrong thing again because I had a fun, extensive go-around with Nic SNfan about that already and, as I said to him, right and wrong are subjective. There are no absolutes.

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  61. SuePoNovember 9, 2010 at 8:30 PM

    I understand Sam is only capable of so much without a soul, but he lost his soul, not his brain. He's not passionate, but he does understand that he made wrong decisions. And you cannot assume Sam will try to be good because he says he will. And unfortunately, there is no way Dean can give logical reasons for a lot of what they come across because most of what they deal with involves decisions made from instinct and gut feeling. He can't justify every gut feeling so that Sam can see the logic. Take Gpa for example. Dean didn't trust him. He had no basis for it, but he had instinct and he told Sam that. Sam listened to Dean's gut feeling, then went on the hunt and still hid Gpa's activities from Dean. Dean made his suspicions very clear and Sam chose to side with Gpa anyway until he was found out. So no matter how much Dean explains and rationalizes instinct and feeling to his brother, Sam still has to make use of his training and the lessons learned his entire life to chose not to cross a line. If he chooses not to listen to Dean, there is little anyone can do. So 60/40 on Dean? Nope. Not buying it. He can try to explain everything (if there is time and opportunity) but it's still on Sam to act accordingly. I think you're giving Sam way more leeway than you should. Just my opinion, tho. Nice debating with you!

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  62. Bruce_FNovember 9, 2010 at 9:03 PM

    There's really no choice but to give Sam leeway. There are no other good options. Dean can't go it alone and he has to keep an eye on Sam. Just because you can't completely trust someone doesn't mean you can't work with them. Sam, Dean, and Gramps have been doing it all season. None of them really trust each other.

    You keep saying "you can't assume Sam will try to be good" and I don't. I assume Sam will try to comply because their goals are the same - get out from under Crowley's thumb and get Sam's soul back.

    Anyway, it was nice debating with you too! It's always fun to do this with someone who can hold their own. :)

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  63. GodlessMNovember 10, 2010 at 12:07 AM

    It's very hard to put together a solid theory at this early stage with so much vital information still withheld but I've given it some thought. The basis of the whole arc without a doubt is power. God is missing and Lucifer is locked up once again so Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and Earth alike are fair game now as far as Angels and Daemons are considered.

    Crowley's angle is obvious. He has Hell and judging by the two instances of soul-snatching this season he has part of heaven on his side already too (it was early established that angels are far from perfect). He made it clear that this is just like real estate to him but obviously it won't stop with Purgatory and his own Apocalypse will come next.

    Onto the Alphas; this Mother the VA spoke of is definitely the heart of it. The VA also said they are at war. We also know they are recruiting. Seems to me that the monsters are preparing to mount the defense once Crowley launches his assault on Purgatory. So the Mother sends the Alphas back into the world to recruit an army and with their general's back on the front line the monsters break their comfort zones and this is picked up by humans as them acting strangely. Interestingly enough this would all imply that the Mother knows of Crowley's plan. Either this is based on a simple situation such as the first Alpha caught by Crowley escaping and reporting that he was looking for Purgatory or she is just as powerful as the heads of Heaven and Hell. I'm guessing the Mother is a fallen angel or something along those lines.

    Heaven's civil war has to come into it somewhere. With angels essentially being dicks, the vying for power has seen some bought out by Crowley (promises of power in more than just Heaven perhaps). With the renegades went the weapons; used for various purposes be it recruitment what have you. It is possible that one of the weapons is needed to gain access to Purgatory. It is also likely that these weapons will be needed to take down some of the more powerful Alphas and even the Mother herself (the crystal that turns things to salt comes to mind). This is hardest piece of the puzzle to place thusfar as it has had the least amount of spotlight.

    Last bit is Sam and Samuel. Sam being brought back and soulless is obvious; he's a bargaining chip for Crowley. As for Samuel, Crowley needed a hunter that could inspire other Hunters and knew the field to do his work for him. There's probably a lot in Samuel's past that would enlighten us more on why him and not say John Winchester.

    Beyond that the bottom line seems to be that it is a war of new game, where the world will not be destroyed but reclaimed. I fully expect Crowley to eventually admit that he wants Purgatory so he can have a better chance at Earth.

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  64. Tonya SantanaNovember 10, 2010 at 2:21 AM

    You know I want to just throw another theory out i can't remember if something happened in another season that can debunk this but here goes. In the whole truth episode when the truth demon was getting Sam and Dean to tell the truth and she said Sam wasn't human what if it had nothing to do with the whole missing soul thing and everything to do with yellow eyes feeding him the demon blood in the pilot episode...? Kinda going along with my first theory on maybe Sam is really half demon or something! Grant it now that I type it Im kinda thinking if this was true then Cas would be able to tell so maybe Im off base but I just want to see what others think! :)

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  65. E. CNovember 10, 2010 at 1:52 PM

    I really miss conversations that didn't go with, "You lost your soul." *sighs*

    I would really bet that he is really not thinking of Suzie whatever-her-name-is or listening to whatever music he used to like. I don't think that Dean even bought what he was saying. At least now we know that all his memories are still completely intact.

    God, I miss Sam-with-a-soul.

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