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POLL : What did you think of Game of Thrones - Breaker of Chains?

21 Apr 2014

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89 comments:

  1. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 03:32

    This season is certainly off to an incredible start!
    Wow!


    I think what I am most happy about (and maybe impressed with) is how much exposition they managed to insert into the episode without breaking the slow whatsoever...
    - They reminded people of The Eyrie, and the Tully's in the Vale.
    - They brought up The Second Sons and Golden Company.
    - They reminded people about Braavos.
    - They reminded people about Mole Town.
    - They brought up the Iron Bank again to keep it in viewers' minds.
    - They touched on how Dorne withstood the Targaryen dragons.
    - They kept the Lannister murder of Elia Martell and her children in people's minds.
    - They covered Oberyn Martell being familiar with poisons and studying to be a maester at the Citadel.






    I think they did a good job handling Dany's arc in this episode!
    I liked the changes from the books and think they worked very well. Although I'm not sure I have seen more men urinating in an hour of TV before - Another record for Thrones? XD
    * Strong Belwas is still missed! *


    The Hound and the Wolf's adventures continued to delight me!
    We got to see how sharp-minded and quick on her feet Arya is in the way she handled the man and his daughter. Also got to see that despite her first deliberate killing last week she still is not coldblooded.


    Loved Oberyn's and Daario's ability to be so nonchalant in tense situations. Oberyn in a verbal joust with Tywin and Daario more literally battling the Meereensese champion.


    The first 3 episodes of this season have been of a higher quality than the previous seasons I think. They seem more polished, more cinematic, and they seem to have a better rhythm to them as well I think. Color me impressed!

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  2. vivcious21 April 2014 at 04:07

    I'm so disappointed with the rape scene. Why did the writers even go there. It's out of character in both book and show versions of Jaime.

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  3. Sandi21 April 2014 at 04:34

    I was very pleased to see so much of the action taking place in King's Landing after all, the impression from much of the promo material was that the fall out would be happening later one and that we would be seeing mainly Dany, Hound & Arya and the Wall.


    Just how good was the scene between Tywin and Oberyn! Pedro Pascal seriously pulled his own weight against the veteran Dance there; I had shivers and literally held my breath in places watching the two of them snake their way around each other, amazing script and acting. I am so excited for what's coming up later on in the show, I don't think they could have found a better actor for the part of the Viper imo.


    Also enjoyed the Tyrion & Podrick scene...even though every episode this season I have had to look twice to make sure he's not Gendry, seriously, he's aged almost as much as Bran has, lol. Tyrion's heartfelt farewell actually brought a tear to my eye, they've probably had one of the most sincere relationships in the whole history of King's Landing, sad times. Though, again, looking forward to Pod's journey from here onward.


    Not sure how I feel about the change in the Jamie & Cersei scene by Joffrey's corpse, making it a rape kind of reverses the role of both of their characters from the book in my eyes, so not sure where they are going with that? Did enjoy the piece previous to that though with Tywin grooming Tommen in how a king should behave and follow his lead at all times.

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  4. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 04:38

    That bothered me a bit too...

    In the books we felt Jaime's anger and pain through his internal dialog and that does not transfer as well to the screen. I guess maybe the rape was their attempt at showing that emotional turmoil from the books?



    I've learned to accept that much of the layered complexity of the characters in the books needs to be trimmed down, simplified, and sometimes tweaked a bit to set up the story in the TV series. I don't always like what they do or how they do it, but I guess I do understand why some things are done...

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  5. Sandi21 April 2014 at 04:41

    There seems to be a lot more of everything going on in the first three episodes, the exposition is seamlessly stitched in amongst tense situations and battles of words or blows between rivals. I dunno how they do it, but they seem to make perfect casting choices too which helps a great deal, people like Dance and Cunningham can make exposition sound like the most exciting thing ever, lol.

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  6. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 04:43

    I'm' not sure exactly why they had Jaime rape Cersei either honestly...


    I know some things from the books do not transfer to screen very well, but that seems quite the opposite of the scenes in the books like you said!


    Maybe the felt it was a faster way to put Jaime and Cersei at odds, but for now I am confused by it more than anything.

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  7. Luana Arturi21 April 2014 at 04:46

    Amazing! Every single scene in this episode deserves to be on the next scene of the week poll. Specially that last one, cutting us off there was evil, love Danaerys! Can't wait for next week!

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  8. DiabetesMan8821 April 2014 at 04:47

    I was unsure about the Daario recasting but the actor they chose is now charismatic enough and badass that it makes me feel better. Love the wink he gave Danaerys.


    And The Hound and Arya are the best!

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  9. Sandi21 April 2014 at 04:48

    I trust them to explain it, I know they will change things from the books, but it's confusing and annoying when one of your favourite characters doesn't something that you feel is out of character, grrr, lol. It's also kinda hard to go too much further into this without spoiling it for non book readers, but yes I guess you are right that it's to drive a wedge between them, but I personally feel that irts a lazy way to go about it :(

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  10. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 04:56

    Hmmm, I had a thought...
    in a lot of ways this reminds me of the Catelyn Stark fans being upset by her "character assassination" in the first 3 seasons.

    Although I do not think those changes were as drastic, and I understood the reasoning for most of them very easily. (Admittedly, I never really thought Catelyn was "pure white" or some tactical mastermind like some people did)

    Maybe they will use that scene as impetus for Jaime to feel guilty and try to change into a better version of himself?

    If so I could see that guilt leading to the naming of a certain sword and what he does with it....

    That said, I think the lopping off of his hand and the subsequent reactions had started that personal evolution already. Not sure the rape was needed to make that point....

    Wait and see I guess.

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  11. Gustav Bluesboy Lacok21 April 2014 at 05:00

    "They seem more polished, more cinematic,..." this is exactly why I'm starting to be quite dissapointed with the show. It seems to me that the showrunners are making one of the best stories of our time into a generic network-like TV show, but with tits and swearing.

    While I love Dany's story in the books until A Dance with Dragons where it seemed to be going nowhere until her cliffhanger, the show is making her storyline too stagy, too overblown. This season, all she does is spraying big words in all directions, demonstrating her strength even in scenes where it is not needed at all - mainly the bullshit scene in the first episode where Daario and Grey Worm held up swords opposite each other and Dany comes up to them and instead of simply saying something like "quit it guys, don't waste our time" she says a pretentious line "the last man holding his sword can find a new queen to fight for."

    Tonight it was the same. I don't know why would she need to say in such pretentious manner what the three guys mean to her (Selmy, Mormont, Grey Worm). It made her seem insincere, as if the words she spoke were something she thought was required of her to say, rather than what she really wanted to say because she meant it.

    Concerning Jaime and Cersei - I don't know why they reversed the dynamic of their relationship compared to the books. In the books, Jaime returned to King's Landing and shagged with Cersei there in the sept, next to their son's dead body. Only then, after the fact they drift apart. But now they made Jaime rape his sister for what? She drifted away from him when he was captured, he thought he'd receive a welcome "kiss" from her. If they wanted them to fuck in the sept either way, I don't know why wouldn't they do it like it was in the book - they would still drift apart, which then makes their change redundant. Maybe they chose to go for another generic shit - "Cersei is a bitch, so we give her scenes where she is a bitch even more." But this rape scene went straight against their character development. Jaime was beginning his redemption story, this makes him look bad, Cersei was going even deeper into her madness, yet this can make her look good.

    I'm starting to think that the showrunners did bite off more than they could chew - in the books the number of POV and non-POV characters is increasing rapidly by each book. They will soon have to oversimplify the story (which will make it loose it's magic) to the point where it will be so boiled down to the basics that we won't give a shit anymore. Even now they have to tell certain character archs every other week rather than every week, with most characters getting one or two scenes per episode, imagine Greyjoy and Dorne storylines being more closely followed next season. They just won't be able to follow the whole story properly with so many storylines needing to be told and only 10hrs per season to do it in. As much as I hate to admit it, the show may loose its storytelling quality within a couple of years.

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  12. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:05

    Yeah he's already on that journey, and we're seeing how jarring and unsettling it is for him to be back 'home' already, I didn't think it was really needed either. There's a huge amount to come later that will suffice instead of a rape imo also. Meh *gags self* lol

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  13. vivcious21 April 2014 at 05:10

    That doesn't sit well with me either, using rape as a plot device to explain the deteriorating relationship between Cersei and Jaime.

    I mean, they're (the writers) professionals. I'm going to assume they went through higher education to land the jobs they have. If rape was their genius idea to portray and simplify complexity, then my mind is blown.

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  14. CCEkeke21 April 2014 at 05:12

    I actually liked Catelyn better on the show than the books, particularly in how she handled Jon Snow.

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  15. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:15

    I have to admit that I am not the biggest fan of Dany in the books after Game of Thrones, but I'm even less of a fan of hers in the show for exactly the reasons you have pointed out here. She never sounds very sincere in what she says, it feels like she's very detached or has little emotion behind her actions at the best of times. We never see her facing the logistics of having to look after all these thousands of people on the road, they would be devastating the countryside behind them as they went along just in order to feed themselves for example. It's all rose tinted glasses and no real problems that she can't over come in 10 minutes.....except she never does quite get round to crossing the sea to get her damn crown back.

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  16. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:16

    I agree with you on some points, but not all.


    I have felt since the first season that they made Dany too pure a heroine and in Season 2 she ran around saying she was the Mother of Dragons and not much else. IT always felt haughty and entitled to me I guess. I do not see this season as a change from that in any way.


    Although I admit that I disliked Dany's arcs in the books UNTIL she got to Meereen. That was the first time she showed real growth to me. The first time she could not find simple answers that worked relatively easily.


    I completely agree about the Jaime/ Cersei scene...
    And I have worried about how the story will unfold on the screen after this year.


    Honestly though, somewhere between Season 2 and this year I just accepted that the show will NEVER measure up to the books, it simply cannot. Therefore D&D need to rework the books into what does work on a TV screen.


    I think this year they have shown that after 3 years of working on the show that they now understand what works on the series! The stories seem more coherent, the transitions feel more seamless, the exposition has been inserted into scenes near flawlessly without the need of "Sexposition", and - quite the opposite of how you feel - I think this season's first 3 episodes actually made me relax and trust D&D more than I did in the first three seasons.


    I think they have introduced the new characters of the Dornish and the Thenns perfectly. Much better than the introductions to new characters in past seasons. I always felt that the story lacked in much needed exposition, but this year they seem to have solved that as well.


    Don't get me wrong... I have issues with how some things are done, but not as much as I used to when I compared everything to the books. Now, more often than not I understand why they change things... Even if I do not always agree on how they change things.

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  17. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:21

    Same here.
    I disliked Dany in the books until Meereen ( I know I am in the very small minority).
    Even when I disliked her character i nthe books I often understood her motivations thanks to GRRM's writing. I do not think D&D have written her charactr very well and I do not think Emilia Clarke's acting has done the role justice (again, I know I am i nthe very small minority in this).


    I think she is even worse on the TV series, however, do not think that started this year at all. I have felt her sense of entitlement since the end of Season 1/ beginning of Season 2. More than just that, like you said, everything seems to be shown through rose colored lenses with her. Much more so than in the books.

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  18. Peter J421 April 2014 at 05:21

    The only thing that disturbs me more than that rape scene is that the director of the episode said it wasn't rape.


    I'm done with Jaime now. He was one of my favorite characters. I can't look at him anymore.

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  19. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:22

    Me too, I like the actress a great deal which helped I think though.

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  20. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:26

    I'm in that small minority with you re: Emilia Clarke, she's probably the one character I just haven't gelled with I think. Admittingly I wasn't the greatest Robb fan either, but that was more the story just boring me.

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  21. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:29

    Huh, how on earth can he claim that, Cersei was saying "stop it, stop it" through out the whole thing :s

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  22. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:29

    I liked Catelyn better at times too, maybe most of the time if I'm honest.


    It did take me a good while to accept an actress a decade or more older than the character in the books, but I grew to love Fairley's performance in the role!

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  23. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:31

    Yeah...
    For now I am just confused...


    I'm hoping the change has reason to it and will pay off sometime the future.
    *Shrug*

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  24. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:37

    Agreed on Robb.
    I never understood the Talisa change and I think it changed his character dramatically from the books. Either way he was never going to be my fav role on the show.


    I disliked Bran more in the books but Isaac's performance has been so good that I enjoy the Bran scenes on the series more.


    Re: Dany..
    During the time shown in the series, Dany is directly or indirectly responsible for more deaths than just about any other character in the series, but those deaths are glossed over or made to seem righteous somehow. It always bothered me in the books, but even more so on the show!

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  25. Peter J421 April 2014 at 05:37

    Well another article is out now where he seems to call it forced. I don't know. Here are both. (the very end of the HR article has a spoiler)

    http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-uncle-deadly#sPmwO6jxGxJzm76a.99

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-director-controversial-scene-697733

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  26. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:41

    God knows why they made the Talisa change, possibly because it was an easy one to do without upsetting the balance too much. I also personally think they wanted to make the Red Wedding more gruesome by having a foetus stabbed on screen...


    Agreed on Dany.

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  27. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:44

    Interesting and odd....
    I do understand exactly what he is saying about the power play and aggression being a turn on to them, but I just did not see those aspects in the scene when I watched it the first time.


    Maybe when I watch it again later I will notice?
    I can easily see myself being a bit too shocked by the change in dynamic from the books to really take note of subtle contextual aspects.

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  28. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 05:47

    That is one point I will grant them in regard to Talisa vs Jeyne Westerling!


    The Red Wedding was even more gruesome than in the books and that was not something I ever expected to happen! XD

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  29. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:48

    Ahh right, so he's admitted it is rape in the HR one then. I dunno how he could say it wasn't really, it's plainly what happened. Shame he's just joked about how it was filmed rather than explained more of the motivation behind it instead. I think it's clear it would have (and has) really confused and pissed off a LOT of people :s

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  30. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:49

    He says in the HR that it's rape:


    "Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go "he's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. "

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  31. Sandi21 April 2014 at 05:53

    Lol yeah, was kinda disappointing that Joffrey got off so lightly compared to the book death in comparison in some ways, I was expecting chunks of his throat and arterial blood to start splurting everywhere XD

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  32. Gustav Bluesboy Lacok21 April 2014 at 05:56

    I'm gonna say what you told me: I agree with you on something, but not everything.



    While I think they did a good job at introducing Thenns, the introduction of Oberyn wasn't much to my liking. Instead of Bronn making jokes about the Dornish, they could have him ask Tyrion why he's so troubled by their arrival and that could lead to Tyrion explaining some background, like Martells hating Lannisters.



    The conversation that happened between Tyrion and Oberyn in the book when they first met - I think it could've been done on TV pretty nicely. It would be better than having Oberyn in a brothel choosing who to fuck when suddenly he has to stab a lannister soldier through his hand. I know, they wanted to show he hated Lannisters, but as I said, that could have been done by Tyrion giving some background about the relationship to Bronn earlier. If they wanted to show how sexually lustful Oberyn is, they could have given him a gay "concubine" along with Elaria that he would bring to King's Landing. Instead, they chose an over the top scene that was again, too stagy.

    My main concern however, was with how the show will handle adding the storylines of Greyjoys and Martells in Dorne from AFFC and ADWD. They have problems with keeping track of the current amount of storylines, what will happen with adding a couple more? I fear the show will have to boil everything down so much that the story will lose its depth, because they won't be able to afford going into so much depth in 10hrs a season.

    And I agree with you about Dany in previous seasons. They tried to paint her a saint and, while otherwise being very generous with the abundance of sexual content, they completly cut out her lesbian scene with Jhiqui (I know she was dead on the show at that point, but still, she surely has other women who serve her that could do the job). It could have added more depth into her one dimentional character on the show.

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  33. CGS21 April 2014 at 06:03

    While this show's habit of recasting frequently is super annoying (this is freaking HBO, get actors who will be available and write appropriate contracts for gods sake) this is one I approve of, this new guy is sexy and charismatic, found the last one a bit creepy TBH.

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  34. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 06:03

    Yeah I think it was just a poorly executed scene and I question its design in the first place too.


    I just re-watched and Cersei is saying "It's not right" the entire time not "No" or "Stop" like I thought I heard as I watched...


    Those words do change the context somewhat if we assume Cersei is commenting on losing Joffrey, not having sex with Jaime at that moment. Regardless I find that debatable.


    That said, I stand by my first impression... and second impression.
    To me the scene's design was flawed and the execution did not enhance it.

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  35. DiabetesMan8821 April 2014 at 06:10

    I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes him. I've commented on boards that I like the recasting and some people got upset because apparently people liked the other guy.

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  36. Sandi21 April 2014 at 06:11

    Agreed, I can't see why they have included it. I want to see what they come with as the reasoning this week, it seriously undermines Jamie and where he is as a character imo. Not to mention it makes Cersei into a victim, which is something she most definitely is not, and it isn't a card she should be allowed to play further down the line.

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  37. CGS21 April 2014 at 06:11

    Wow, reading these comments is surprising,maybe because this is the first time I'm watching the series every week instead of marathoning it after. But I freaking love Dany, I look forward to her scenes more than nearly anyone else and even if she does die eventually I want her to be one of the final two standing out of the characters in contention for the throne. Anyhoo, I felt way bad for the guy who helped Sansa only to get shot, I hate Petyr so effing much and I hate that he helped Sansa because I want to like him for it. Great episode!

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  38. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 06:17

    My default position is "Do not change a book scene unless you have to"
    and many scenes from the books could be used almost verbatim easily and work as well or better than the scenes D&D ended up writing!

    I would have preferred the Dornish arrival from the books as well, but I like Oberyn's opening scenes. I think they showed who he is very well even.

    I have no clue how much they will cut of the Iron Islands and Dorne or what will be changed since I have no idea what is actually needed and integral to the endgame of the series. Sure, I have theories and ideas, but I do not KNOW. D&D are aware of what bits are important.

    My concentration on those two regions was affecting my enjoyment of the series. Somehow I managed to just put it on the shelf for now. Something to be revisited at a later date.

    I still theorize about the books, but that does not usually bleed over into the show for me. I can look at them as two different entities now.

    I'm enjoying the show for what it is - not being annoyed by what it isn't. And in particular I am enjoying this season. Which is a nice surprise since my level of anticipation for this season was lower than for the previous 3 seasons.

    Honestly when it comes to the Iron Islands and Dorne... I just somehow stopped worrying! No other way to put it. XD

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  39. Abhijit21 April 2014 at 06:26

    Yeah, I was wondering how they would explain so much of the story that happened before the events of GoT and they are doing a good job of it so far. And the fact that they have included certain stories lends credence to a lot of theories out there ;)

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  40. Songformylove21 April 2014 at 07:07

    Heartbroken Tyrion and Podrick have to be separated. Master and servant have been charming together and Tyrion is right there never was a more loyal squire then pod. And Sansa, he does care *shippy sigh* poor everyone. :(

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  41. Ron21 April 2014 at 07:14

    There were a lot of things that they remind us of things that i completely had forgotten.


    I just didnt understand why Jaime did what he did, was that a way of deal with the pain of loosing his son? or was just him being an ass?...


    Sansa with Little finger is no good that guy means trouble and now Sansa has to trust him?, baby, Sansa RUN!.


    The Hound and Arya always deliver they are an odd team, Arya is trhe "think fast" girl while the Hound is the one doing the "hard" work, i like how she is still that girl that understand the innocents and got all mad cause of what the Hound did.


    Podrick and Tyron was sad to watch the boy really care for Tyrion and Tyrion got to really like the boy it was oen of the few people he was confident with.


    Daenerys and her party.. can really someone stand on her way?

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  42. nobody21 April 2014 at 07:33

    Excellent episode............so far this season is on FIRE! Now let's count the ways............shall we (No Spoilers).
    1) The "Hound and the Wolf" is great TV. More please.
    2) I'm enjoying the "Wilding" scenes, even though I know I shouldn't (they eat people).
    3) "Seven Hells have no Fury like a Wildling Woman Scorned". Ygritte was "Grim Death" in this episode..........Jon Snow best beware!
    4) "Little Finger" is becoming one of the "Best Villians" on TV. Poor Sansa..............she just can't catch a break.
    5) Daario Naharis - I like the original actor.........still do, but this new actor is starting to grow on me.
    Dani's story is always great, but that goes without saying at this point in the series.
    The scene at Joffrey's wake was disturbing and difficult to watch............I'm not sure what this scene meant, especially after what he did for the Lady Knight last season.
    Is it just me or could anyone else watch a episode entirely of scenes with Margaery and her grandmother (Diana Riggs) , the "Hound and the Wolf", and Tyrion and Bronn, and finally Varys? I'm just asking because I definitely could. Can't wait until next Sunday!
    4 THE IRON THRONE AND THE LAST TARGARYEN, I will remain Nobody!!!

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  43. Irina Derevko21 April 2014 at 08:39

    I love Jaime and Cersei. They can do no wrong in my eyes. They are my favourites. I hope they live forever. I didn't think it was rape either to be honest. It was forced because if you watch it properly you can see she is saying no but she is responding. So, I think that is what director means by "power play" turns them on. She didn't want to but could not resist.


    I don' really care whether people see Cersei as a victim or not or are upset that this lets her play the victim card when supposedly she should not be allowed to. Or how this supposedly affects the alleged redemption of Jaimie. This is not the Bible. I am not here looking for people to be redeemed. Cersei herself would not want to be pitied by anyone. I like her, evil as she is and in the rare and odd moments of humanity, I look forward to the bitch with the biting quips.


    I like my characters to be a bit of both and that is why I like Jaimie and Cersei.

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  44. Luana Arturi21 April 2014 at 10:11

    Yeah actually Danny is the only character I kinda spoiled for me just to be sure I'd be seeing her for a while (I'm not spoiling anything cause at the moment when I checked it was only until this season or so) cause after Ned I was a bit traumatized, so yeah, I get what you mean.
    There are only a few characters that would seriously make me cosider stop watching if they died, though I'm not sure any would really acomplish that Danny's the first on my list.

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  45. Luana Arturi21 April 2014 at 10:28

    I hadn't really thought about the rape scene before but now I see it's pretty much all people can talk about I wonder why they think it's so weird.
    I do get that it wasn't on the books and so I get that they tried to convey things and feelings that are difficult.
    But besides that I don't think it would be that off character, at least not for what I've been seeing on the show. They are twisted people, even if they are deep and have many layers, I mean, Jamie threw a boy from a window so they wouldn't be caught, and they are brother and sister, I'm not sure typical morals can be applied to their relationship.
    I mean, yes, it was rape because she told him no several times. I think he reacted because he realized she hadn't been willing to even touch him since he'd returned (added to the way he must be feeling about loosing his hand and trying to prove he's still himself) and suddenly when she wanted him to kill Tyrion she kisses him, and then pulls away again, he sees through that manipulation and snaps.
    Even if she had conflicted feelings (because she said no, the she did respond and then she said no again) the scene did shock me and I wonder how the dynamic between them will work after that but I'm not at all offended like some seem to be, I think it's just part of the fiction, part of the layers of the characters and part of what at least I love about Game of Thrones.

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  46. Luana Arturi21 April 2014 at 10:37

    About Danny tonight did call my attention her being so pompous but it's the first time. The scene where Daario and Grey Worm are competing, to me the way she said that was important because of the reaction she caused on them, the way they let their swords fall like they were on fire, I think it was at least important for the comedy of it.
    But in a way I think it's not that weir or bad she talks like that, I imagine in the logic of the show that she has had to pass her time convincing people to join her in her quest even when it seemed like she stood no chance, and I'd guess that so much time speaking like that can turn into a habit, and consolidating her lidership is still important to her, I don't think she takes it for granted given where she started.

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  47. nels21 April 2014 at 11:19

    That really didn't come of as it was intended, yeah.

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  48. Ross21 April 2014 at 12:01

    Book Jamie is one of my favourite characters, why the hell did they make TV Jamie rape? To me that makes them two completely different characters now. It's just plain stupid.

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  49. Helena Chester21 April 2014 at 12:18

    I think they handled the Jamie and Cersei scene very well. People who are saying it was out of character need to reread the books.

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  50. Jay Atkinson21 April 2014 at 14:02

    You are not alone in that minority, I am not a fan of her character in the show either. I actually quite liked her at times in the books. But, in the show, I find her infuriating. The writing is for her character, as someone else said, is pompous and pretentious. Often, it comes across like a bag of hot air, too, which makes it worse. As with her threats in Qarth. They are so desperate for her to be a badass role-model that they feel the need to force it. Only for a brief moment in Astapor did it feel genuine. I think Emilia's acting is a huge part of it. She's bland and robotic in her delivery and movement. I believe nothing she is saying. I think in better hands, the sub-par writing could be pulled off. Coupled with her performance though, it just feels flat and disingenuous.

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  51. Ross21 April 2014 at 15:32

    Actually I think you probably should. In the books it was consensual. http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

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  52. laura334121 April 2014 at 15:55

    As a non book reader i didn't find what Jamie did was out of character.

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  53. marius21 April 2014 at 15:55

    Ok Daario naharis ,thank you, now you can go and let jorah in peace with his khaleesi !

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  54. Sandi21 April 2014 at 16:12

    Really, you don't think his experiences with Brienne have changed him at all? I do think that the show has found it a lot harder to show these changes as it's easier to put down on paper his inner thoughts and feelings, but it's a shame if none of that has come across at all in the show :(

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  55. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 16:21

    Felt like this was very much a set-up episode. A lot of references to The Iron Bank, Braavos, The Golden Company, reintorduction to Mole Town (yuck, I hate that place), ect.


    Tywin I think had some of BEST dialogue in the episode. (His scenes with both Tumon and Oberyn were GREAT)


    Felt bad for Cersie again, even though I know I am going to turn around and want to kill her! (if only Lannisters wouldn't constantly open their mouths and make threats! sigh)


    It's too bad The Hound stole the silver, but at least he didn't kill them and I think his point about Stark heads is valid!


    The Wildling scenes were pretty brutal (definitely think it's evident that Ygritte let Jon live!)


    I nearly cried when Pod and Tyrion talked. (I love that little Podrick)


    Oh Petyr Baelish, why did I have to get you when I took that "which house are you" quiz?! Seems like he gave his role in Joffery's death away! (and goodbye Dontos you fool! And poor Sansa...)


    Looks like Margaery is going to have to go for "sweet Tumon" next (glad they recast the actor to make appear a bit older)


    Jaime seems um, **frustrated...but I think he will help Tyrion and hopfully Bronn out!


    I think Davos needs some new lines! It's like Blackwater all over again....Hope we see Gendry again soon.


    And is Dario an Indiana Jones fan?! XD I love how protective Danny was of Grey Worm, Jorah, and Bannister offered their services, but was like "ok" when Dario asked XD

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  56. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 16:39

    "During the time shown in the series, Dany is directly or indirectly responsible for more deaths than just about any other character in the series, but those deaths are glossed over or made to seem righteous somehow. It always bothered me in the books, but even more so on the show!"


    I actually like Dany on the show more than the books, but I agree that there was something really sudden and drastic about her going from Drogo's Khaleesee to what she became in Quarth and onward....


    In some way I can see it as "momentum" in that each conquest is greater and greater and therefor her personality has to match if she's going to be a real force to be reckon with. But I agree that there is a debate here about if killing that many people to free others is "justice" or not, but I think these BEAUTIFULLY contrasts the Wildlings being "Free People" who often savagely kill and mame others (just like we saw in this episode) . It's another reason why I think Dany and Jon are on a collision course and why I think they could end up being lovers...Jon's soft spokeness (and IMO more actually a true definition of Righteous) may bring Dany down from her high hor--, er, I mean dragons, especially if the series ends more with a battle against the white walkers, rather than 'the game of thrones', as i suspect that it will become "obsolete"....


    But I also think as we were both taking about before that Lannisters and Targaryens have a lot in common and Dany, like Cesei, but even more so because of the whole "history" and her brother, is a by product of repression and I think that tends to make woman a little crazy in this universe! XD

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  57. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 16:49

    Exactly.
    The book scene is as Alex Graves describes the motivations for the scene. Cersei feigns propriety (possibly for the first time in her life) and Jaime ignores her since she is basically saying, "No..... Don't..... Stop... No, don't stop! And by midway through she is actually encouraging him!


    Not to mention the rape is against the dynamic of their relationship as a whole - not just that scene as I saw it.


    Cersei uses sex as her weapon as well as Jaime used his sword. She was always in control of their sex, toying with Jaime. Angering him then acquiescing. She enjoyed having the power in the relationship since as woman in a country ruled by men, she feels powerless.

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  58. laura334121 April 2014 at 16:53

    No,I definitely saw the changes within him while he was with Brienne.Saw it after he was back having breakfast with Tyrion.He seemed more compassionate but there is no denying he was still conflicted where his feelings for Cersei were concerned. On one hand you were able to see the disdain on his face a few times he was with Cersei but i also saw the longing he had for her,or thought he still had...

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  59. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 16:59

    I thought that was strange too. On one hand it generates some more empathy for Cersei (which I like), but in terms of Jaime's actions I can only think this is out of frustration, because she asked him to do something so horrible, but yet when he came home she "blamed" him for his absence and pushed him away and said it was "too late". The fact that he recognized that he loves a "hateful" woman and then do this to her was to make her know what it feels like to be him, if that makes any sense?

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  60. Sandi21 April 2014 at 17:05

    Ahh I've got you, yeah he still has longings for her and thinks he wants to pick up where they left off so to speak. But in the books the sex by their dead son is wanted by both of them and it changes the both of them because they both initiated it. Jamie forcing her against her will while he's in the middle of a redemption journey is a bit repulsive, a much larger step backwards for the character, and not one I'm sure I will be able to get over in order to feel he will deserve any sympathy in the future.


    Most people will bring up the pushing Bran out of a window at this point, which is terrible too. Yes, it's awful and unforgivable. But, he hadn't started his redemption at that point, and it isn't something I would ever forgive him for anyway, he's always a grey character in my eyes who tries to over come his past mistakes. But this rape means that he has kind of blown his second chance for me, I'm not sure why they felt the need to make that change to his character.

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  61. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 17:05

    I have a different take on it. I think he is doing onto Cersie what she has done to him -and I think it's because of Brienne...he no longer wants to be just whatever Cersie wants him to be and so for the first time ever, he is going to use her, like she uses him (and a lot of other people)

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  62. laura334121 April 2014 at 17:09

    Interesting,i hadn't looked at it that way!

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  63. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 17:09

    I can appreciate the mirroring of Dany and Jon, but I still cannot appreciate the character on the show! XD

    *Shrug*

    I find Game of Thrones much like How I Met Your Mother in the way the title refers to the series. Just like meeting the mother was irrelevant to the greater narrative, the battle for the Iron Throne is the backdrop for the series, but it is not necessarily about who ends up King or Queen on the Throne.

    I always saw ASOIAF as being the story of Westeros as a living breathing entity told through the characters. Like you said, who rules in the end may very well be nearly irrelevant in the end. I actually expect it on some level.... I'm okay with that..



    I think for a lot of readers (and viewers) there could be a couple of big twists to come that will show some characters as much more than they seem and others as much less. Some many look at as heroic may not be the heroes in the end!

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  64. Helena Chester21 April 2014 at 17:28

    Perhaps it was but not until after she put up a fight and it was still in front of her sons body. But I do see your point but what I did like about the scene is that we are no longer getting Jamie portrayed as a victim of Cersei.

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  65. ViKi21 April 2014 at 17:37

    Actually in the books Cersei didn't want to either at the beginning, but then she let herself go happily. I don't understand why the scene changes in the show.

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  66. DarqueMode21 April 2014 at 17:42

    Interesting take on it and maybe what they were going for..


    While I see Jaime moving on from Cersei as a good thing, him showing he is moving on by raping her seems counter-intuitive to me. I have a hard time looking at as positive movement in his arc.


    Of course it does not need to be positive movement at all if they want to play with Jaime's narrative a bit.


    My personal issue is not that it is stepping backwards, more that it is not part of their dynamic in the books. In the books there was even more things to make Jaime angry at and frustrated with Cersei, but he still did not rape her. And I know the books are different than the series.... still....


    If it is just their way of showing Jaime moving on from Cersei and showing her what it feels like I'm not understanding it.or agreeing with it right now. Maybe it will pay off later like I said earlier in the thread.

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  67. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 17:45

    "I think for a lot of readers (and viewers) there could be a couple of big twists to come that will show some characters as much more than they seem and others as much less. Some many look at as heroic may not be the heroes in the end!"


    No, I think that's definitely true. I'm actually happier about it potentially being about something bigger than the characters that either changes them, makes a statement about a natural inevitable, or makes a statement about cause and effect from past to future, I think the only ending in the world I would hate, would be if the white walkers are defeated and then everybody who's left starts fighting and they all kill each other!


    But what I also like looking at is Martin's "order systems" (government/evolution) is how you can see the flaws with all of them and even the characters trying to change them (Dany--similar also to Windhaven concept), because I think the truth is there might not ever be a perfect system, because there are never perfect beings. I find it all so realistically complicated, it's maddening! XD


    So I guess I'm curious what his resolve to that will be!

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  68. DarthLocke421 April 2014 at 18:04

    "While I see Jaime moving on from Cersei as a good thing, him showing he is moving on by raping her seems counter-intuitive to me. I have a hard time looking at as positive movement in his arc."


    I agree it does seem counter intuitive, but that might be kind of like a "last dance" with your first love, even though you've already slept with your new lover kind of thing...kind of like a muddied and fickle goodbye.


    It makes the scene I think even "grayer" than it was originally written...
    But even at the wedding, he had to get all dark and condescending by being unnecessarily over protective of Cersei towards Ser Loras (which is screwed up, because of how cold she was towards him in the premiere episode). So I'm thinking they're making a point of showing us something transitional from old Jaime to new Jaime were he's kind of swimming in the middle!

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  69. Kristin21 April 2014 at 21:13

    I was disappointed but I know the new actor from Nashville so maybe I am biased since he plays a slimeball. Plus, the last guy had the face of a warrior! Either way I'll be happy to see him in scenes with Dany.

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  70. arun27921 April 2014 at 21:22

    That's what I thought too. This seasons seems much more polished and cinematic. They know the show and they know the audience well now and they are adapting the stories pretty well and like you said, even found ways to put in some exposition.

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  71. gladius21 April 2014 at 21:28

    so many unimportant filler scenes...sex scene with dorn deviants, who are really boring and may be of any interest only to some teen jerkoffs. I like Gilly and Samwell but do we really need their "love" story, is it really important? I loved their travels across wild lands last season, I hope there is something of more importance in store for them this season. If not, let the subplot end soon.

    What about that scene with clegane and that father and daughter? We all know how he is, we already know his character, another looong scene to remind us of it is useless.

    Stannis is still in his castle...Last season he got that message from C.Black and I was under impression that he is gonna march there...three episodes passed and he is still thinking about strategy. I'm not familiar with the books, I've read only the first one, but it seems some action moves with GLACIAL PACE.

    Who killed the king? I couldnt wait and I checked in internet, I found out its still unknown in the books...I guess if the writer knows it himself...It seems that it was that littlefinger guy (who is really annoying). He had it all preplanned. He got that clown guy (the one who got shot in the boat as a thankU) take Sansa to his ship. He must have known something was going to happen to the king.

    I know from the amount of negative comments about her that Daenerys is not very popular character from this show but I find her story much more interesting than sexual preferences of dorn folk, or the prayers befor stew, etc...I had to check in internet where her story goes. I thought she will gather an army in the east continent and then storm the west...she is constantly moving opposite direction than the land that she want to reclaim...It seems in the book the "free all the slaves" story goes nowhere after all...Shame, I like her.

    WHERE ARE the white walkers? Got, they take their time walking south...

    I think the whole story is gonna end when the real winter covers the west continent, walkers army ttack the humans, and Danny is gonna cross the sea on the back of her dragon and the dragons will destroy walkers with their fire so the people will call her the real queen and saiviour. She will not conquer the land but win their love. THE END
    sorry for my english...

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  72. Sandi21 April 2014 at 21:43

    I think if that winter has covered Westros then the dragons will have a very hard time of it, fire will have just as hard a time over ice as vice versa. We know that even one white walker can turn the air frigid all around them so I don't think it will be as simple as all that when three dragons confront thousands upon thousands of them. Plus we don't know that fire would have any effect on them anyway, we know that burning the bodies of the dead will stop them becoming white walkers, but only dragon glass has been known to kill them once they have turned so far.


    My theory with the dragons is that Bran, and maybe others, will warg with them in order to settle the war, but I don't think that they will be entirely useful in the white walker problem. Unless they are able to create the dragon glass for the soldiers to use in this world rather than it occurring naturally like it does in ours.

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  73. gladius21 April 2014 at 22:25

    but I guess a dragon can kill a walker much easier than a human warrior. Dragon fire is no just some fire.

    The walkers army plot must be leading somewhere...
    and is dragon glass is made by dragon fire or is it obsydian?
    I really dont know where this story is leading. If the writer has any ending in mind at all.

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  74. Sandi21 April 2014 at 22:41

    It does feel like it's taking a while to get to winter doesn't it, they're forever saying it's coming but we see very little of it, lol. Martin does know how it will end though, and has done for a very long time, it's just that there is a lot to tell, with a lot of families, to get to that point in time.

    Dragon glass is basically obsidian, there is some debate about how it is made in the world of GoT though I think with no definitive answer known at this point afaik.

    I agree that dragon fire isn't just normal fire, but on the other hand the white walkers ice is also not normal ice, they do kind of balance each other out. I would be very disappointed if all Dany's dragons had to do would be swoop in and set fire to them to win. It would be a massive cop out after building them up to be such a huge threat. I mean why build a massive great wall across the continent 8,000 years ago when you had loads of well trained dragons, that could have done much more than what Dany's wilder dragons could have done, if that was all it took?

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  75. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 01:01

    I agree with this too! I think given the circumstance of her situation (and in relation to a motif of her bigger and bigger conquest and dragon's aging), she is forced to be this way, if she wants to make a real statement/be a strong force. Essoss is just so different than Westeros (say for Dorne and North of the Wall) in that drama and aggression seem to be the main thing the people on most of that continent take seriously, where in Westeros there's more room for mind games and political maneuvering. What I mean is I think the over all situation with how people live there is worse, more extreme, kind of like Ben Hur!


    The only thing I agree with Darquemode with is that Dany has killed a lot of people to be able to free a lot of people and there's a good debate if that's real justice or not, especially when one contrasts that to The Wildings: The FREE people, as we can see that just because someone thinks they're free, doesn't mean they really are (to quote Janis Joplin "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose") , and just because someone is free, doesn't mean they're good!


    I'm still hopeful though that Dany will have to reconsider what's really important at some point though...that the Iron Throne and conquering Westoros could become obsolete, should the White Walkers and Wildings gain steam...

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  76. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 01:07

    I don't think it's necessarily out of character either. I think even though the circumstances between Jaime and Cersei are different in terms of when Jaime comes home, I think in one way or another the scene represents their struggle to deal with everything and Jaime's frustration in his own transition. Personally I find this scenario more complicated than the book's and even though there are some great debates about how to interpret this, I give them credit for giving us something really disturbing to talk about...

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  77. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 01:10

    Well I agree with what you said too above about it also being a representation of confusion for Jaime, but I do think by not stopping and saying he doesn't care over and over makes him cross a line he never has with Cersei before...

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  78. laura334122 April 2014 at 01:34

    In The Hollywood Reporter there is a recap article about the scene in the book.They said that in the beginning it wasn't consensual,at first Cersei said no but then 'let herself go' and it then became consensual.

    By the end of last season i too thought Jamie had changed enough and was on the road to redemption...I still have hope for him.What can i say i'm a sucker for a pretty face! .....just joking,lol...

    Here is the link if you want to read. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-recap-jaime-takes-697731?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_dailyratings&utm_campaign=THR%20Daily%20Ratings_now_2014-04-21%2009%3A39%3A40_moconnell

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  79. laura334122 April 2014 at 01:39

    Ya! The last paragraph with Jamie in transition and sort of swimming in the middle,that's how i been seeing him in the last two episodes.

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  80. laura334122 April 2014 at 01:41

    Oh yes,when Cersei and Brienne were talking the look he gave to Brienne then to Cersi was something!

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  81. laura334122 April 2014 at 02:00

    I welled up with tears when Tyrion was talking with Pod. I felt so bad for both of them.I wonder if we'll ever see Pod again? Now Tyrion has no one,Shea,Pod and even Sansa are gone,i hope Jamie stands by him.

    Oh yes,those Wildlings are brutal! No question Ygritte let Jon go intentionally.

    Ha is Daario an 'Indiana Jones Fan'..Looked that way to me,I even heard my husband laugh at that scene! Ya,it was nice seeing Danny being so protective her guys,she certainly needs to keep them safe and close!

    I had a twinged of sympathy for Cersi,but it didn't last long....

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  82. laura334122 April 2014 at 02:02

    @DarthLocke4 Here is a recap article in which they say why they decided to do this. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-recap-jaime-takes-697731?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_dailyratings&utm_campaign=THR%20Daily%20Ratings_now_2014-04-21%2009%3A39%3A40_moconnell

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  83. Luana Arturi22 April 2014 at 08:13

    Yeah but regarding freedom and justice that's a larger, more complicated debate that applies to the world in general and not only fiction, in this GOT world I believe Danny's leadership is one of the best by far.
    As for the W's I think given that Danny's on the oposite side she'll be one of the last ones to get to that particular party.
    Right now it wouldn't surprise me if the W's wrecked Westeros and Danny arrived just in time to rule over the remains.

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  84. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 15:39

    I suspect that everyone (Wildings, Dany + army, Jon, and random survivors) will meet in the middle at King's LANDING. Bran and Dany's identical visions may either be the throne room in snow or the throne room in ash, or both. I feel like Jon (for a lot of reasons) will be in the middle of it all.


    And I agree it's a good story, because the work reflects the problems with life, philosophies, and civilization that viewers can relate to.

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  85. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 15:44

    If they go with the books, we should see Podrick again!

    Jaime seems like Tyrion's only hope now...

    I know Dany on the TV show gets some flack, but I think she's always entertaining (and I personally like how she's written in comparison to other things). Her scenes and the cities she goes to always reminds me of Ben Hur!

    "I had a twinged of sympathy for Cersi,but it didn't last long....

    Ha! Ya, well her problem is she never knows when to quit!

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  86. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 15:45

    Thanks!

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  87. laura334122 April 2014 at 16:35

    At least now we know why...and you're welcome!

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  88. laura334122 April 2014 at 16:38

    I found this yesterday in a recap article in THR. It gives an explanation as to why the scene with Jamie and Cersei was different than the book. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-recap-jaime-takes-697731?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_dailyratings&utm_campaign=THR%20Daily%20Ratings_now_2014-04-21%2009%3A39%3A40_moconnell

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  89. DarthLocke422 April 2014 at 18:20

    Even though Cersei was wrong to blame Jaime for his absence (as if he did it on purpose to hurt her), she did have a point by saying you can't come back and expect everything to be the same. Things have changed. Obviously it's hard to know if that's even was what Jaime was thinking, but I think that line is important, because it's truthful and intuitive to both Cersei having to give up Myrcella to Dorne, almost committed suicide and murder Tumen at the battle of Blackwater, and then Jaime obviously loosing his hand and bonding with Brienne, for both of them to turn around and loose their monstrous son!

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