Supernatural returned from “hellatus” with an episode that really heated up the mytharc and was packed with familiar faces. Episode 8.10, “Torn and Frayed” was written by Jenny Klein and directed by Bob Singer. This was Klein’s first solo effort on an episode, and I’m sure it won’t be her last as she delivered a tightly written episode that covered a lot of ground in tying up a lot of the story threads that began in the fall and set the stage for the season going forward. As usual, Bob Singer brought out the best in his actors.
Before we get to the episode discussion, a quick rundown of some of the interesting tidbits I caught while watching – and I’m betting many of you did too. It was director Bob Singer doing the voice over for the dung beetle documentary that Sam is watching. While Dean and Cas are interrogating the “ambushed” victim in the hospital, Jim Michaels (co-executive producer) is paged. Kevin (Osric Chau) is being hidden on Garth’s houseboat which is named Fizzles’ Folly. Mr. Fizzles is the name of the puppet Garth uses in “Party On Garth” when he is questioning the little girl. Vincent Gale played Viggo, Crowley’s torture assistant. He also played Evan Hudson in season three’s “Crossroad Blues.” He was also in Sanctuary which Amanda Tapping (Naomi) starred in.
This episode seems to have wrapped up both the Amelia (Liane Balaban) and Benny (Ty Olsson) story lines – at least for the foreseeable future. I, for one, am sad to see them go. I liked the dynamic they both brought to the show, and they are both fantastic actors. We’ve also, apparently, seen the last of Castiel (Misha Collins) for the next few episodes.
While we were biting our nails for several weeks, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) pick up pretty much where we left off. The episode opens with an excellent montage of “then” set to Bob Seger’s "Katmandu". “Now” begins with Samandriel (Tyler Johnston) trying to contact Naomi and being tortured. Once again kudos to the VFX team (Mark Meloche, Grant Lindsey, and Werner Ten Hoeve) on the nails and screws in Alfie’s head! Johnston was amazing in what must have been an exhausting shoot for him. It was very uncomfortable to watch the torture.
“Torn and Frayed” finally sees the brothers have some meaningful dialogue. Sam insists that Dean has to be done with Benny, and initially Dean says he doesn’t know if he is or not. Dean does apologize for using Amelia to get Sam out of the way. Sam tells Dean that he was afraid that what happened to Jess had happened to Amelia. It made me wonder if Sam left her in the first place in order to keep her safe. Of course, with Azazel dead, that shouldn’t really be an issue as he was the one who had Jessica killed to get Sam back into hunting. Dean leaves, and in light of what he says later in the episode, I believe he didn’t realize the depths of Sam’s feelings until he saw him so distraught.
Meanwhile, Cas is making amends by doing random acts of kindness – a nice shout out to Misha’s own charitable organization which does the same! Naomi recalls Cas and charges him with rescuing Samandriel. There is a classic Cas moment when he is simply staring at Dean watching him sleep when Dean starts awake, telling Cas “It’s just creepy.” Dean agrees to help find Alfie (Samandriel), and in another classic Dean/Cas moment, Dean is embarrassed when Busty Asian Beauties, his favorite porn site, pops up on the computer when he opens it. Collins and Ackles have great comedic timing together. Cas wants to know where Sam is, and Dean’s only explanation is that he’s “gone.” Dean insists that they don’t need Sam.
Amelia comes to see Sam, and they end up having sex. She mentions that Don, her husband, has been travelling a lot since returning (from the dead), and I found that a bit curious. I wonder if that is going to play out in some way in the future. Is he hunting? Did he make some kind of deal to come back from the dead? Of all the women they’ve paired Sam with, the relationship with Amelia has felt the most real for me. Balaban is an excellent actor, and the character is written extremely well. She is strong – despite being emotionally vulnerable and she is smart enough that it’s believable that she would be an interesting and challenging partner for Sam. They really had great chemistry. In an episode with several emotional scenes, I think this scene with Balaban is one of my favorite scenes ever with Padalecki. There’s an honesty, vulnerability and longing in his performance. Amelia tells Sam that she is willing to give up everything for him, but he has to be willing to commit to her one hundred percent: He’s got to be all in or all out. They decide to think about it for two days. When Amelia showed up at the motel at the end of the episode and found an empty room, my heart broke for her.
When Dean and Cas do find Crowley’s hideout, Dean realizes the two of them with the demon-killing knife, aren’t going to be enough, but he still won’t let Cas get Sam. Instead, he takes Cas to Kevin so that they can make more demon-killing bombs. The bombs are my favorite special effect from this season! Explosions are always good, but I love how it blasts the demons back and through the walls, leaving a shadow impression, much like angel wings when angels die. Kudos again VFX team!!!
Kevin is struggling to read the tablets. He’s even sent his mother away. He tells Dean that this is his desert in which to learn how to read the tablets and that he couldn’t possibly enjoy a world he knew he had to save. Right now, he tells Dean, nothing is more important. This really resonates with Dean who has spent his entire life feeling that way. What Dean knows, and this shows completely on Ackles face, is that there will likely never be a world for Kevin to enjoy knowing what he knows now. There will always be another monster to kill for Dean or another tablet for Kevin.
When Cas returns with the fixings for demon-bombs, he brings Sam back with him. He tells the brothers to “stow your crap” until they’ve saved Samandriel. When they finally get to the door behind which they can hear Samandriel being tortured, Castiel has a breakdown and remembers Naomi torturing him in flashbacks. Tapping finally gets to show a bit more of Naomi’s character in this episode and we learn that she has somehow been manipulating and controlling the angels. Cas eventually remember her drilling into his head, much like Viggo and Crowley (Mark Sheppard) do to Samandriel. By the end of the episode, after Naomi has forced Castiel to kill Samandriel and lie again to the brothers, Cas is bleeding from his eye – from where Naomi had drilled into him. I wonder if this is similar to the re-programming torture that Cas was subjected to in season four and that Anna was subjected to as well. Perhaps, Cas’ bleeding is related to him trying to resist Naomi’s influence in the same way he was able to throw off their control before. Castiel is devastated that he killed yet another angel and over a mere tablet. Both Naomi and Crowley realize that a tablet relating to angels, as Samandriel reveals it is, is a huge threat to the angels. If the demon tablet would allow someone to lock up the demons, an angel tablet might do the same to the angels. Dean and Sam are unfortunately in the dark about the angel tablet because Dean impulsively kills Viggo before he can tell them.
Dean and Sam do realize something is wrong with Cas and angel-proof the cabin when they get back to it. Dean reminds Sam that he knew Cas hadn’t been right since coming back from Purgatory. Dean tells Sam to go, that he can handle things on his own. He tells Sam that he’s just tired of the fighting and one of them should be happy. He also admits to being jealous of Sam. He tells Sam that he could never separate himself from the job the way that Sam could. This is a nice parallel to Dean’s conversation with Kevin. It also demonstrates a consistent thread in Sam’s character. Sam has always wanted “normal”. That doesn’t mean that Sam doesn’t want to do the right thing and help people too – even at school he was going to be a lawyer to help people. But like Dean and Kevin, even while he wants to go to Amelia, he feels the pull to put the world first.
Possibly my favorite part of this episode is when Dean tells Sam – just like Amelia already had – that whatever Sam decides, he just has to decide. He had to have both feet in or both feet out because anything in between would get him killed. Sam takes a walk to decide and Dean calls Benny. He’s also decided he’s got to be all in or all out, so he has to let Benny go. This is Dean’s second call to Benny. Benny had asked Dean to come meet him because he was struggling. Olsson does a beautiful job of conveying a strung out addict just with his voice. Benny’s struggle is palpable in the barely heard tremor of his voice. Like a true friend, Benny simply thanks Dean for the ride and lets him go. It's clear that Dean feels badly, but as always, when push comes to shove, he's going to put Sam first. Like Amelia, I felt really badly for Benny, that Dean had, in fact, let him down. I suspect we will see Benny again, and when we do, it won’t be pretty.
The episode ends with the brothers back together. I suspect they will both still carry some baggage forward and may even second guess their decisions, but I don’t think they’ve been so much on the same page, and both reasonably healthy emotionally and mentally for a good long while. I know a lot of fans have been waiting patiently for them to reach this point! Next week’s episode features the return of Felicia Day’s very popular character, Charlie Bradbury and takes place at a Renaissance Faire. Anybody else excited for that one? What did you think of tonight’s episode? Will you miss Amelia and Benny?
Supernatural: "Torn and Frayed" But Back Together Again
17 Jan 2013
Reviews Supernatural
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I think the baggage was opened last night and everything was left to bare.............it is a new day for the brothers...........finally at peace with their decisions. They both had decisions to make is it Amelia or Benny....the choice although hard .......was the only one to make... I will never forget the first episode when John Winchester placed Baby Sammy into big brother Deans arms and said "take care of him" that will resonate with me forever, I watch this show for the brotherly love and chemistry it is what draws me to the show............Jared and Jensen are great actors.......the brothers Winchester priceless.
ReplyDeleteI am totally on the other side from you about Amelia, I never felt this story had any chemistry or real feeling to it. She was hateful to Sam and I had to wonder if he was really this desperate for companionship and now cheating on her husband. If they leave it like this and Sam really did not ever look for Dean this is going to be a bitter pill for me and will ruin the whole season. There have been many eps I have loved including this one, but the Sam of this season will not be the Sam of the first 7. How can Dean ever trust Sam again to have his back when it counts? I am sad about this.
ReplyDeleteOK about the ep and not the season as a whole, do hope this is the last of Amelia, but afraid for Benny. I don't want Dean to have to kill him and it would give Sam way to much pleasure.
Naomi is a piece of cake and could be the big bad of the season, I think she could give Crowley a run for his money. Taking her down is going to be something to look forward to and might be as good as Ruby's death. lol
The last scene was good, but if they were trying to make it like the Christmas one, for me, it fell way short. The tension between the boys felt real.
they both chose family <3
ReplyDeleteAmelia no, never felt any chemistry with Sam. Never felt it was a grand romance - not like Jess, not like Madison, not even like Ruby and the whole she has sex with Sam after admitting Don travels alot made me dip from slightly sympathetic to feeling slightly skanky about her especially when she goes on to tells Sam that she should be content but she thinks about him when she first gets up in the morning. Then to make a decision about not dipping in and out of her life. It left me wondering what exactly would her decision be if Don wasn't travelling and was always there and I wonder if she went back to Don after she found she was alone in the motel room.
ReplyDeleteAll in all I feel sorry for Don.
Benny however I feel sorry for.
I never liked Amelia. Once Don came back, it just became an adulterous story. Sam's too good for that. I do feel for Benny. He needed Dean, but Dean had major decisions to make. I also wonder if Dean broke it off because it would bring Sam into Benny's vicinity and Dean wanted no risks for either of them. I am happy with where the episode left Sam and Dean. I am considerably worried about Castiel. The fact that Sam and Dean needed to angel proof the cabin resounds at the end. The thought of the torture Naomi is putting the angels through concerns me. I am not even sure she's an angel. All in all, I found it to be a great episode.
ReplyDeleteDean broke with Benny before he even knew Sam was going to stay.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your interesting review.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering how Cas could find Sam ¿hadn't he angel-proofed both of the brothers? I understand that he could easily find Dean in Rufus' cabin, that's almost their home now, but how did Cas know where was Sam?
Skanky about her? How about SAM? After all, he was just as involved in the sex as she was. One assumes, anyway.
ReplyDeleteUm, Sam spent a season mainlining demon blood and boffing a Demon. If Dean can trust him after that, well, I just don't see how Amelia can pose that much of a trust problem. Amelia was hateful to Sam? Um, how? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, it takes two to cheat....
ReplyDeleteWerewolf and demon-fucking Sam is too good tor adultery? Really?
ReplyDeleteDon't get me started on Sam!
ReplyDeleteAs I said I don't feel sorry for Sam and Amelia, I feel sorry for Don.
Good review! I generally liked this episode, in part because it seems to have at least paused the ongoing battle between Sam and Dean, which I'd really like to see sidelined permanently. The episode's pretty clearly structured around the idea of making snecessary sacrifices, and the parellel between Dean cutting Benny loose and Sam cutting Amelia loose was pretty obvious. However, neither Sam nor Dean looked all that happy about the choices they'd made in that final shot. That's realistic, of course; you don't just cut loose someone who means a lot to you without it having some sort of emotional consequence for you, even if you believe it's necessary to do it. And I'm not convinced it WAS necessary for either of them to do it, really. Cutting Benny loose especially is basically setting Benny up to fail; Dean's choice of Sam over Benny wil,, I think, end up having tragic consequences.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Sam/Amelia thing, I'm frankly baffled at the antipathy towards Amelia. The actress does a good job with a realistic character. Sam and Amelia are in a tough spot, emotionally; they had a flowerging relationship before Don returned, so Amelia having a hard time coming to terms with the situatyion is entirely realistic, even if it means she's not a paragon of virtue. Face it, folks, people commit adultery a lot, and usually for far worse reasons than Amelia does. Regardless, it's hardly fair to point all the arrows of blame at her. Sam went along with it, after all. This is (given the context of a horror show on TV) a reasonably realistic take on the messy complexities of human emotion. Except for Ruby, she's the woman with whom we've SEEN Sam have the most full relationship. I mean, Jess was in, what, two episodes, three (one in the dream reality of the djinn)? For maybe a couple of scenes each time? Madison was in one? And Ruby ... well, she was a Demon he fucked and whose blood he drank for a season. Somehow, I fail to see how having a loving human relationship with a veterinarian is orders of magnitude worse than that. I mean, come on!
And yes, I'm looking forward to the Renaissance Fair, and especially to the return of Charlie! Let's just hope she doesn't look longingly at Sam, or suddenly she'll be a hated skank, too....
Fair enough. I do wonder, though, whether there is more to that whole story than meets the eye. Don was reported dead, and then returned. Now, that sort of thing CAN happen in the real world, but this is a horror show after all. Maybe he really was dead and has been brought back as part of a complex long game? I kind of hope not, actually, but assuming we ever see either Don or Amelia again, I'll be very interested to see how things play out.
ReplyDeletea descion he made based on what Kevin said about not being distracted. Sam and Dean both chose to walk away from their distractions because the job is more important.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I have to say that I am also on the opposite side of you when it comes to the Amelia and Sam storyline. I don't feel like she and Sam had any chemistry at all, and particularly found her wooden and bland. She was indeed hateful to Sam when they first met and I said then that I couldn't figure out why he would actually fall for her after that.
ReplyDeleteI also didn't like the fact that she shows up at the motel room, explains that Don travels a lot, etc., and then sleeps with Sam. Like someone else said, the only one I had any sympathy for was Don.
I'm not a huge fan of Benny; however, that being said, I liked the storyline to a point. I understood
Dean's loyalty to him and why Dean kept his promise after Purgatory. I won't miss him terribly though.
I am really enjoying the mystery going on with Cas. It's intriguing and I'm anxious for the boys to start to catch on that something big is going on.
The end of the episode was good enough--though not nearly as good A Very Supernatural Christmas. I was hoping for Dean to have a tiny bit more of a response to Sam's nod. I'm happy to have the brothers back on the same page. But I still remain disappointed in Sam that he didn't look for his brother at all. It sticks in my craw. :-) I can't help it.
I don't understand where you see the chemistry between Amelia and Sam.
ReplyDeleteLove is supposed to make one happy. I have only ever seen Sam sad and unsmiling in Amelia's company except for a couple of rare occasions.
I have never seen a gentle caress between them or even a touch on the arm or any of the little things that two lovers do when they are together.
Then she comes to the motel looking for him when she is still with her husband, so she's not this poor little damaged thing she's made out to be.
I'm only afraid she will be back with a pregnancy problem.Don's or Sam's?
Anyway I'm so glad Sam has left her. I would never condemn him to a life with her.
X
As for the rest of the episode it was completely depressing, between torture, angsting and whatnot.
The last scene was even more depressing for the two brothers are yes together but they seem anything but happy about it, so really we haven't moved forward at all.
X
The myth-arc is very weak and uninteresting with very little time being dedicated to it, so honestly I don't see anything to celebrate with this episode or the whole season for that matter.
Perhaps his angel-proofing wore off while he was in Purgatory... How did he find them when he first got back from Purgatory? I just assume the angel-proofing is gone. After all, Naomi is controlling Cas' memory, so he doesn't know that Heaven is a threat to them. The assumption seems to be that heaven is still in a lot of disorder after Cas killed so many angels, so not a threat.
ReplyDeleteIt was pretty clever of the writers to make her a lesbian really...
ReplyDeleteI was not talking about the cheating, it does take two to tango, I was talking about how bitchy she was when he brought dog in, and again when he was trying to fix her sink, in fact most of the time..OH right she made him a birthday cake..and had sex with him. Good for her.
ReplyDeleteI don't usually see eye to eye with you, but in this case I agree 100%.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Sam not looking will ruin this whole season if it does not turn out to be something wrong with Sam.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad we intersect now and then. :)
ReplyDelete"Hateful" seems a tad hyperbolic in those contexts....
ReplyDeleteI am truly disappointed with this episode and the only highlights for me were Dean and Castiel scenes in the first part of the episode. It was incredibly frustrating because
ReplyDeletecodependency made them give up on people that matter to Sam and Dean. And this is not okay and should never be okay. I hope Dean and Benny will be ok in the end and I also hope that Dean will no longer be forced to apologize over and over again while Sam doesn't do.
Well if I had a vet that talked to me like she did Sam I would never go back, she was totally hateful. I felt sorry for Sam to be that broken he would go with her.
ReplyDeleteI'm slightly pissed that Dean had to apologize to Sam once again. And what's the point of the Benny breakup? I just don't get it. This SamandDean thing is getting sooo tiring, they once again single-handedly got rid of all the supporting characters and I just can't enjoy that kind of show anymore. I would've thought they learned something from s7, but I guess not. At least they didn't pretend to be happy about it. I don't understand why we couldn't have Amelia knowing about the supernatural and be his long-distance girlfriend, and Benny Dean's cellphone friend who occasionally drops by. And Cas, how are we just supposed to accept the next week's light-hearted episode after that send-off? I'm just so mad right now, there was no need to revert to this codependent isolated mess of SamandDean, you better fix this in the next couple of episodes.
ReplyDeleteIt was a sad Ep for me...poor castiel has no idea what's going on with him and now samandrial is dead...I really liked that guy..As for Sam and Dean, it's kind of a good now that both of them have decided to stick together..I hope they'll do something to save Castiel from that evil Naomi..
ReplyDeleteIf I didn't know Cas will be gone until at least 7x15 I would be happier. The episode in itself was good, not amazing, but good. But not knowing what's going on with Cas for so long will be awful. Also, I hope the writers don't ignore what happened to Cas in the episodes he is not in, because I really can't believe the boys, specially Dean, would just forget it. I hope they at least mention it.
ReplyDeleteSam's reason to "dump" Amelia was good. There's too much things going on and I don't think he would be able to be with Amelia knowing all the shit that's happening.
Dean's reason to end his friendship with Benny? I didn't like it. I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to Benny, but Dean putting an end to their friendship because Sam gave him an ultimatum? Extremely unfair. To Dean and to Benny.
I fear the codependency will keep being the status quo of Sam and Dean's relationship. I was hopeful they would choose to stay together because they wanted to and not in the way it happened.
On a lighter note, Dean hiding the porn from Cas was cute. XD
I think u meant 8.15.....i know thatz really sad...
ReplyDeleteNope they didn't. They chose the job and it became very clear in the last scene which was a textbook picture of misery with boxing on TV. Quite significant.
ReplyDeleteIf we see Don and Amelia again what we will probably be spoon fed is a 'who's the Daddy storyline' which we don't need.
ReplyDeleteI hope really we don't see them again because I don't really think the story has anywhere else to go because Sam was told to make a decision and he should stick to it - once by Amelia and once by Dean. If they do come back the only story they should have is that Sam is forced to actually stick to the decision he made on his own with no-one twisting his arm because that is what happened so he has no-one to blame if he isn't happy with it.
But then again he did jump into bed with not only a woman he knew was married and had seen her with her husband but knowingly did after she came back from dealing with him.
Classy Carver classy
I agree with you. I'm really sad at the brothers' choice. I think the show would have benefited to continue exploring Sam and Amelia's relationship. I know I could get 'hate' by saying this, but the show really needs this! I think it's natural for Sam and Dean at this age to start trying to build relationships, why not? Because 'Supernatural is not about the romance'? Love is a natural part of life, and I think it was nice to have Sam falling in love with Amelia (and it'd be nice to have Dean falling in love with Castiel too.. ;) ). I think that, at this point, it's something logical and fresh for the show to explore since it's reaching it's final seasons. I think Supernatural needs to have more character interaction; to have Sam and Dean create relationships outside of each other, because keeping things ONLY revolving around only two characters - it doesn't matter if they are the core of the show, or the leads, or what the show's about, or the main actors, or whatever - it will only get monotonous and unrealistic. Sam and Dean need to interact with other people, to build relationships. I really don't see what was the point of Dean breaking up his friendship with Benny at all. Because he wanted to make Sam happy? I don't get it :/ (maybe Ty needed to be off the show too, because he is now acting for another show I guess..). So. This is what crumpled the episode for me; that in the end, the unhealthy codependency that has made Sam and Dean's brother relationship so miserable won in the end, and that they had to let go of people they cared about because of this. It's like they are in a cage, from which they can escape, but choose to go back and continue locked inside. It is getting hard to watch this show, but I will continue to watch until the end with the hope that Sam and Dean will eventually grow-up and leave that codependency behind, and that Castiel is treated with more respect as a character, and that all the buildup for Dean and Castiel's relationship is resolved and made canon (it would be the logical choice by now). And I have to add, I agree so much with you too in the fact that Dean has to apologize to Sam, but Sam doesn't? Did the show forget that Sam lied to Dean and had a crazy hunter following Dean's friend? And that Sam tied Dean in a room to go after Benny in the same episode? So Dean has to apologize for a text message, which came because of a situation Sam created in the first place? Food for thought.
ReplyDeletePerfect post is perfect. I hope Carver resolves that, because I remember him saying something along the lines of it being ok when Sam and Dean have other people in their lives. That's the whole point of maturing the Winchesters. Realizing that the world is not just on their shoulders, that other people are willing to help and in turn need help and love. Amelia actually grew on my in 8.10 and I also hope Dean and Castiel will eventually get together. It's rather obvious.
ReplyDeleteI liked this episode. I think what happened to Benny and Amelia pretty unfair, but I understand Sam's and Dean's reason, they have the saving the world and helping Cas in first place and they want to concentrate on it, but I have a feeling this won't be the last we see of Amelia and Benny. I was so sad because of Samandriel, I take longer to like characters this much, but Samandriel was a exception, he was good and sweet and there weren't wings(I'm in denial), maybe he's still alive! I din't had a full opinion in Naomi, but my opinion now is clear, she needs to die, she made Cas kill Samandriel against his will and Cas is already feeling so guilty, how will this leave him? I loved the destiel moments in the episode, on a other note and I hope the boys don't forget Cas in the episodes he's gone.
ReplyDeleteI fear we are in the minority of wanting Sam and Dean to have relationships outside of each other... but at least they didn't kill anyone off!
ReplyDeleteI agree - i like it a lot more when they maintain the continuity and mention that they are at a dead end in looking for the tablet, Cas, etc. I agree that more has to happen to really mend the brothers' relationship - but I do think it's realistic for it to take a few episodes - apparently 8.13 is supposed to have another brotherly chat... I also agree that the way Dean dropped Benny made no sense. He essentially signed Benny's death warrant. He knew he was on the brink of falling off the wagon, and he just cut him loose. Sam letting go of Amelia - to protect her - made a lot more sense.
ReplyDeleteI really think you need to put her initial interaction with Sam into context. She didn't know him. She - like most vets - is used to people simply abandoning their pets to die. She was shaming him into taking responsibility for the poor animal. I wish people could try to look at it from her point of view at the time. Some guy brings in a dog that he's hit with his car - so he obviously cares enough to do that and take responsibility - but now he's going to walk away. You have just saved the dog's life, but now there is no one to take the dog so it's going to have to go to a shelter where it will likely be euthanized in the near future. Wouldn't you try to get the guy to take the dog?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I really want them to eventually break their old patterns. I don't understand how someone can watch this episode and think their happy or content there at the end. Like, no, are we watching the same show? :/ They reunited because of necessity.
ReplyDeleteNo hate - just LOVE for this post. I completely and utterly agree! Having just the brothers interact is unrealistic and unhealthy. I'd love to see them in harmony AND have other people in their lives! Ty wasn't contracted to another show - but he has time off from Supernatural and he's a working actor, so.... although, he would love his pilot Borealis to go to series!
ReplyDeleteYES!! Totally agree - and this is what I was hoping from Carver's remarks on maturing their relationship.
ReplyDeleteOH! You're right! No wings! Maybe Cas was faking it and will spirit him away instead of taking the body to Naomi... fingers crossed...
ReplyDeleteSounds like you might want to move on to a different show. As for love only making you happy - that's a fairy tale. Love is messy. And I'm speaking as someone who's been married for 20 years (to the same guy). However, in almost every scene when they are talking - I'm thinking about the scene, in particular, when Sam comes back to Amelia after their first time together, and they are sitting on the couch and about to talk about Don and Dean, they are sitting there, HOLDING HANDS - in fact, they do that a lot. However, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the chemistry - either you see it or you don't. I really don't know where this baby conspiracy is coming from. The show is never going to go there IMHO.
ReplyDeleteDisappointed that we don't see Castiel for several episodes. Sighs.
ReplyDeleteHe could have just brought the dog and left, he told her he traveled a lot and could not take care of a dog. She could have been left without the bill being paid. But that was not the only time, when he was fixing her plumbing, she was awful. She had let the motel know there was a problem, and she comes in with someone fixing it and she goes off on him.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, I kind of like that they didn't go the "perfect love interest" route, she feels real with her quirks and flaws, that is exactly what endeared her to me. And it's not like they went from animosity to married in a day, there was a whole year worth of development we didn't get to see. Cas started as ambiguous, Gabriel has done nothing but mess with the boys, Balthazar too, yet people almost unanimously love them. I hate that there's such a double-standard for women of supernatural.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, I love Amelia, I think she'd be a great addition if they actually gave her the chance. This suburban storyline doesn't suit her, I bet she'd kick ass in the supernatural world.
To be honest, I'm kind of mad how they killed every female character, the only ones that have some sort of permanence on this show are irredeemable villains (Ruby, Meg), or are only used as a plot device ("bendy" Lisa).
Yeah, I'm disappointed too, when are they going to learn that "third wheel" adds extra grip, greater stability? (imho, that has never been more true than at this point in the show)
ReplyDeleteI often wonder if I am watching the same show! ;)
ReplyDeleteI certainly HOPE not ... that unplanned/who's the daddy pregnancy story line has been so done ot death on varous shows.... But as for seeing them again, there's still the unresolved question of who the lurking figure was way back in episode one....
ReplyDeleteI could live without seeing them again, sure, but it feels like there's unfinished business there. At least this break-up wasn't as dopey as the one between Dean and Lisa: sure, make her forget me, because HER knowing ME is what makes her a tool my enemies can use against me.... Dean would have needed his OWN memories of/love for Lisa wiped to prevent her from being used against him. Sheesh!
I agree again! I think Amelia's character and how their relationship developed felt real. Of course, I watch Supernatural because I don't like Rom/Coms and the plastic sort of relationships they portray. And it is a problem with the female characters- how they are received by fandom. Charley is one exception - but then, she's gay. Sheriff Mills has a following - AND SO SHE SHOULD! because Kim Rhodes rocks! - but then she was a love interest for Bobby - not one of the "boys".... Personally, I also really liked Lisa. I thought she handled Dean and the monsters very well.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Love isn't all flowers and unicorns. The relationship was a plausible one, founded perhaps in unhealthy needs--Sam fleeing the loss of his brother, Amelia grieving the loss of Don--but developed (albeit only in glimpses) quite plausibly, by the standards of a show like this, which is by its nature predicated on action, not romance.
ReplyDeleteWell, I was only responding to your comment about her in the Vet's office. In the motel room, I think she was caught off guard by him being there. Also, she was staying there to stay away from people because she was a mess as she put it. She acknowledges that she's not good company. Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Lisa was actually the nature of her relationship with Dean. He remembered her as a good lay *until* he found out she was a mother. Suddenly, she's the perfect woman. So in a sense, I only hated the storyline, not the character. Also, her introduction in s6 was baffling and only served as a plot device for Dean's apple pie life, because what kind of a woman takes a man into her house after she's known him for exactly a week or so? (bendy weekend plus that episode with creepy children)
ReplyDeleteIt felt disrespectful to women in general, but luckily Jensen had the right idea about the nature of their relationship and his acting redeemed it a bit. That doesn't change the fact that she was sort of a doormat for Dean, though.
I only volunteered my opinion which is as valid as yours, which I respect.
ReplyDeleteX
For me this season is the worst of SPN ever. You think it's wonderful. Fair enough.
We will just have to agree to disagree, but knowing the marvellous episodes we have had on this show in past seasons, I don't understand how you can be so positive about these depresssing episodes where the brothers hate on each other.
As for the baby conspiracy, I hope it never comes to pass but as the writers have turned the show and characters upside -down to fit in with their ideas, then nothing is sacred.
X
However to each their own.
X
As this is the only show I love, I will defend the true characters of Sam and Dean Winchester to the bitter end.
I always considered him going to her in season 3 because she had hit a chord with him - that she meant more to him than just a bendy weekend - that (I hate how cliche this sounds) they connected in some way that he hadn't with anyone else. Remember too that Cassie was the love of his life and he spilled his guts to her after 2 weeks... Dean doesn't really have any long term relationships to compare.... And I guess I am guilty of thinking, well, who _wouldn't_ take him in on the spot? :)
ReplyDeleteI absolutely do respect your opinion and it is always welcome here - please don't think my comment meant to suggest otherwise.
ReplyDeleteHehe, well that's a valid interpretation as well. I guess I always viewed it in more of a screwed up psychological kind of way -- he idealized her as he did his own mother (especially since it was so sudden, right after he found out she was a mother too) I think Jensen even said something similar in an interview, how she was the perfect thing he thought he wanted, but that it wasn't love. Anyway, it's my interpretation. As I said, I like the character, just not the story she got stuck with.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I agree with other posters that at this age both boys need to be having outside relationships to remain healthy this to me wasn't a healthy relationship. Amelia told her father she 'liked' Sam and Sam's response to her moving to fast question he said they were making up for lost time - what lost time? They had just met each other. Him I got with regard to lost time but her??
ReplyDeleteI got that they were meant to be two lost souls that found each other at a bad time but it felt more that it was them replacing one codependency for another, her with Don and Sam with Dean so I don't think that there is much else to explore as the lurking figure could easily be written off as Don considering the continuity of Sam leaving Amelia is so weak was it night was it day was she in bed or was she standing in the doorway.
The only thing right now that storyline could bring is Don punching Sam in the face because even though normal people commit adultery Amelia went from slightly sympathetic and weak to pathetic and manipulative something that Lisa for all the faults in the storyline was never.
Theb rothers hating on each other has been a recurring theme throughout the entrire run of the show. It's not an aspect I particularly care for, but it's hardly new this season. I think this season beats the last couple cold, but the show hit its peak (for me) in seasons four and five.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize that Cas was going to be gone for so long :/ It's going to be torture not knowing what's happening to him up there. Plus, on the lighter side, it makes me sad because I think his reactions to the LARPing would be absolutely pricelessl haha
ReplyDeleteI thought it was an amazing episode and I'm happy Sam and Dean are back because "family never ends with blood." I'm glad they chose each other. I am also happy with the Amelia story line ending for the most part because she's married and Sam wanted to protect her. The Dean/Benny thing i think was good because to me, he was kind of why Sam was so pissed off at Dean so they had to make a choice and they made the right one. They need to concentrate on what's going on with Kevin, and Cass, and everything else but i can't wait to see what else happens with Cass :) Love my boys!
ReplyDeleteI for one, agree with almost everything you say. Don't ever stop giving your opinion.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed a different tone on these boards in the past few weeks and it's not at all enjoyable. SpoilerTV was one of the last boards where people could have intelligent debates. Now I see a lot of posters expounding on their Cas/Dean love and thinly veilded Sam hate.
Exactly, I can't invest emotionally in the season until they resolve that issue. If they don't, then i will write off the entire season. It's already the season I like the least and that's saying a lot cause I didn't like season four with the angels. S4 did have some great standalone episodes, which, so far, this season does not.
ReplyDeleteYes, that is so true. The parallels between the two situations was so obvious. However, the "let's blame Sam for making Dean abandon Benny" hate has already started - and on this board too!!
ReplyDeleteDean didn't have to do anything. He chose to apologize after learning how much pain and angst he caused Sam. And Dean broke off with Benny as Sam broke off with Amelia. The parallels were obvious. They were getting rid of the distractions in their lives. Of course, that is not going to stop the Sam-blame or Sam-hate.
ReplyDeleteReally? You're saying Sam has never apologized to Dean? Sam and Dean were getting rid of distractions in their lives so they can concentrate on the job. The Cas and Dean scenes may have been a highlight for you but I just endure them.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. I don't believe Sam, or anyone other than a masochist, who be interested in a relationship with her based on how she was presented during her first appearance.
ReplyDeleteFunny how Don and Benny are getting my sympathy too. The cuckolded husband and the vampire have been decent people. Everyone else I've wanted to smack.
ReplyDeleteI would've liked Sam apologizing for once instead of taking holier-than-thou attitude. Poor Sam and his pain and angst, but what about Dean? And I don't even hate Sam, it's just that I love Dean more. There's a reason people are currently pissy at Sam, Dean always gets the short end of a stick and is criticized for every single thing he does and no one bats an eye, yet when someone criticizes Sam, it suddenly means he's hated, attacked and whatnot. He and Martin knocked Dean out and chained him to the radiator, then promptly left to kill his friend without any kind of proof that he's the one doing the killings. If that doesn't warrant an apology, then I don't know what does. Sorry, it's just my opinion, feel free to disagree.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course Dean would feel the need to sacrifice shit for Sam, because that's all he ever does. And I'm supposed to feel grateful Sam did the right thing for once? They aren't equal in this unfortunately, as much as you try to paint it as such. I'm just glad the show didn't romanticize the ending, but showed it as it is.
For the record, I don't hate Sam, I actually think he has every right to his independence, it's my favorite thing about him, but I loathe their codependency (especially on Dean's part) because it's always at Dean's expense.
The scene didn't do Sam any favors either. They both come off as skanky and self-absorbed in this scene. This is especially since out of the three of them, Don was the most sympathetic and seemed to be putting someone else before himself with his speech about it being Amelia's choice. Quite frankly, I think Don can do better than this neurotic mess. Of course if he ends up being evil later, I might actually like him even better. The bad guys are the best part of Supernatural these days.
ReplyDeleteI did not see it at all about distractions. If that was the case then the Ren Fair would also be a distraction. Dean made the choice because Sam said he had to choose and when it comes down to it, Dean will always choose family. Sam did the same thing. Amelia said it had to be one way or the other and Sam chose family too. The entire episode was built on ultimatums and being forced to make a choice between sucky options.
ReplyDeleteApart from Cas in his tortured state I agree with you.
ReplyDeleteIf Carver's idea was to give the boys separate tales to make them grow I think it has backfired badly so far. Sam with his has in all intense and purposes become superfluous on his own show. Sure he proves muscle and some research but apart from that he is coming off as a dick, not to mention him taking out his problems with Dean out on Benny when every other monster he gives the benefit of the doubt. Not to mention he is doing it while daydreaming about a dippy self absorbed codependent girlfriend. (really the actress was not served well with the way Amelia was written especially as Don came across as such a reasonable bloke)
But back to Sam, if Crowley hadn't so obviously fortified that warehouse would Sam have been required at all? Were we meant to think he would have reached out to Dean at any point after the way that opening scene went?
At least Dean with his faults has relationships that actually tie into the story line but Sam,right now even after his big decision he could disappear and I actually wouldn't miss him because Cas, Benny, Kevin, Garth and even Mrs Tran could easily take his place and that isn't right for a lead in a two lead show.
I don't think it is at all obvious. In fact I would say that the opposite is true. Sam told Dean to make a choice. Dean did. Amelia told Sam to make a choice. Sam did. There's the parallel. Quite frankly it didn't do Sam's character any favors and that's yet another thing to blame Jeremy and the writers for this season. They have been crucifying both brothers but Sam is getting the brunt of it right now. They need to re-establish a brother bond that isn't built on co-misery and feeling stuck with each other or neither is going to look good at the end of season 8.
ReplyDeleteI was actually blase toward Amelia until this episode. I didn't like her; I didn't dislike her. She was just part of the scenery so I really wanted to like her in this one. Quite frankly the whole subplot of Sam and Amelia's relationship was boring and never felt tied to the story. They were the B-side. If nothing else, I am glad Amelia is gone because now Sam can be more into plot A. I'm fine if Amelia comes back but only if she is tied to the supernatural. Right now she is firmly stuck in Soapernatural and that's nothing to get excited about.
ReplyDeleteThey need to give Sam some relationships that tie to the supernatural Not a love story but some solid friends. I would love to see Sheriff Mills be that person. However no one can ever replace Dean or Sam for me. Without the two of them, the foundation is asunder and the show falters. I could take every person you mentioned leaving this show without so much as a whisper but I won't take a Supernatural without both brothers. It hurt to lose Bobby but again the show can survive without him. It can't survive without Dean AND Sam.
ReplyDeleteI want that to be the case, I do. But as I said right now Sam is sitting a point where him being phased out wouldn't hurt the actual storyline. In fact it would take the wishy washy soap opera that has crept in right out.
ReplyDeleteHe could even just be an occasional guest star at the end of a phone or Dean could write a letter at the beginning of every episode like on One Tree Hill and very little of the actual action because Sam's actions could easily be done by beefing up any of the others I mentioned and the plot wouldn't be harmed as I am getting the feeling that so far this season Sam is the least invested in the room outside being ticked at Dean and that is the only real major relationship that is solely his in that world as Cas has always been closer to Dean than Sam.
Carver doesn't just need to being Sam into the plot but as you said he needs more relationships with reasonably sane people who are also invested in that world who interact with him either more or equally they do Dean.
Quite frankly there have been several episodes this season where neither Dean nor Sam were vital. They both could have been replaced. In Bitten they actually were.
ReplyDeleteso can someone tell me why sam needs to apologize for dean bring a killer into the world tell me. I like to know? you guys all know what benny is come on I am so sick of this. this just makes me keep bring up the amy thing I do not want to do it but it just happen.
ReplyDeleteyes and how can don be alive I think he is a demon guys think about it come on god this takes me back to season4 and 5 of gilmore girls anyone? HA HA!
ReplyDeleteI liked Lisa also, but she was a danger to Dean, because he did care for her and what happened with Crowley would just keep happening.. I was a huge Jo fan and would have loved to see that progress.
ReplyDeleteAnd I guess I am guilty of thinking, well, who _wouldn't_ take him in on the spot? :)
ReplyDeleteHa, right there with you.
I am hoping the guy in the shadows is the reason Sam has been off this season..I just want a reason, not because of a dog and girl, that he did not look for Dean.
ReplyDeleteI really hope there's more to Naomi than this apparent Evil. Not surprised in the least her appearance was about an Angel tablet, though. Been waiting for one of those to be mentioned since the Demon one was brought up. But Naomi, man, I can't even say how disappointed I am my hopes for another good female character is dashed against the rocks. I need to give up hoping for that on this show.
ReplyDeleteI think the parallels were obvious because of the way they did the editing. Yes, Dean gave Sam an ultimatum and earlier Sam gave Dean one. But they both made the decisions that they needed to continue with the job.
ReplyDeleteDean called and broke it off with Benny before he knew if Sam was going to come back. That's an important distinction for all the Sam-haters because it means Dean made the decision to remove distractions and to concentrate on the job even if Sam didn't come back.
I agree that Dean and Sam are both being written out of character. I hate the Amelia story line and hope we never see a hint of it again, except to find out who was outside the door.
I wish they'd get the brothers back on track. This show is just getting emotionally exhausting, and definitely not fun, to watch.
Having the LARP episode next week doesn't surprise me in the least. This whole season has been about inconsistency.
ReplyDeleteI'd definitely agree with that interpretation too. Again - when has he ever had the opportunity for a long term "healthy" relationship with a woman?
ReplyDeleteSam didn't take a holier-than-thou attitude.
ReplyDeleteI've been saying since the season premiere that Sam has been ooc. It's awful what they are doing to his character. But Dean is also being written out of character.
That said, my perspective is the opposite of yours. I believe Sam gets the short end of the stick on both the show and in the fandom.
I began the season by asking people not to simply engage in sam or dean hate and to respect each other's opinions. I think it's time I started doing that again... It's no secret that fans of the show have very polarized views, but I think you make a better argument when your argument doesn't involve blindly favoring one character. I guess I've missed the Cas/Dean fans hating on Sam...
ReplyDeleteI agree! I adore Amanda Tapping and was really hoping her character would be a great one - one that would help Cas and the boys. I know she will do an amazing job at playing a villain though if that is what Naomi eventually ends up being...
ReplyDeleteOkay, so the brothers are back on the codependency thing. Is this the same song played over and over before? Maybe, maybe not. I got the feeling that we are finally going to see some consequences with Dean cutting Benny loose.
ReplyDeleteI liked Sam's reasons better; he was the one always pinning for some normal life, and now he got his chance now, yet decided to pass on it to keep fighting the good fight and to protect Amelia. I feel like Sam finally made an informed decision and can move on now. That's development for him, and kinda loopholes the codependency issue back to an status quo.
Because, talking about that codependency. I can't look it as either a good or a bad thing, it just lies more on the category of "things that just are" and I don't speculate if the series should end with it on or off. And that's what I liked about the Amelia/Sam storyline; it circled back to that. It didn't paint it as a good thing, it was mournful in its consclusion, but neither painted it in a bad light, just a choice that had to be made.
But as Sam's storyline reached a more solid, if non-dynamic conclusion, Dean and Benny are still on the air, and I feel that this selfish decision is going to bite Dean on the ass (and not on a sexy way the Denny shippers would like) There's going to be some consequences y'all.
Okay maybe I'm not explaining myself, I am just saying that if Sam had chosen the other way (which we knew he probably wouldn't) the way Carver had set things up Sam's story it would be pretty close to an exit tale on a lot of other shows especially considering Carver had repopulated the Spn universe with people capable of taking over Sam's roles.
ReplyDeleteSam is twiddling off by himself with his issues on the sidelines by daydreaming about Amelia (which involves only him seeing how she hasn't interacted with anyone else), biting back at Dean and saying that he is doing one more job then quitting.
Why exactly did it take 10 episodes to get over that? Did we need 10 episodes of the angst when all it does is give me the feeling just go or stay but get over it.
yes they are!
ReplyDeleteSam could leave to be with Amelia but he didn't , not because of the job he left the job when he thought Dean is dead ! what's the difference now ?! even Dean tell him it's OK to leave!
and Dean he cut it with Benny because of Sam , although he know that Benny needed him. but hay it's Sam!
The best review on the episode I read. Thanks a lot. Poor poor Alfie - first tortured then killed. But who wasn't torn and frayed in this episode? Only Crowley. And, yes, Naomi.
ReplyDeleteI'm not happy with Sam's direction this season either, it was totally unnecessary to make him this unsympathetic and also they could've tied his Amelia storyline to the main story better (instead of this boring mess).
ReplyDeleteI disagree about Dean, though. I love his character development this season. He's finally showing some agency, expressing what he wants, or even better, not feeling guilty for wanting things for himself. I liked that he has friends outside of Sam, that's why I was so bitter at him cutting Benny loose (when it wasn't necessary). I don't want to compare it to Sam leaving Amelia, because she is a civilian who has no idea about the supernatural.
But whatever, what's done is done, I just hope there's going to be some kind of payoff in the future. The last scene is actually strangely reminiscent of "A Very SPN Christmas", only back then they **really didn't** have anyone but each other (which is obviously not true anymore). If we have to have 5 or 6 "SamandDean-only" episodes, then I hope they'll at least use them to fix things between them.
So if people disagree with you and criticize someone/something, provide opinion that's different than yours - suddenly it's not intelligent debate? I thought 'debate' means people discussing and dissecting their opposing views on a topic. Just because someone is criticizing your favorite character, doesn't mean it's hate. And people have every right to express their love for the characters and relationships they enjoy (just as much as you do), so don't take it as a personal insult when you see people voicing their opinion and views of the show that are different than yours.
ReplyDeleteYes I know its great for Dean to have friends outside of Sam and I am well aware how sympathetically those friends are written and how awful Sam is and how Sam having independence is done at Dean's expense but Dean having independence is character growth however while I think the writers have done the usual poor job of writing Sam , Dean is not coming out of it much better but then I suppose it depends where you stand and how far you think Dean has a right to go.
ReplyDeleteAmelia was a mess I agree it was sterile , and as empty of genuine insight and storytelling as a void and I wish thew writers had genuine warmth for Sam and the characters associated with him and for his relationship with Dean but I dont feel sorry for Dean over this he wanted Sam by his side he got it. And he isnt the only one who has lost out here ;
Ha, I also don't want Sam gone, but am ready to buy him a bus ticket, just do what ever you are going to do and get on with it, has been my thought for several eps. I am still on my soapbox with I don't think this is our Sam, something is wrong with him and I think Dean sees that. I am hoping the shadow figure is what is causing it.
ReplyDeleteI actually believe the episode would've worked better if they aired it as mid-season finale, because we all waited for some kind of resolution in mid-season premiere, yet the things got even more complicated and depressed. I think it was deliberate, though, so I'll just have to wait it out and see what kind of resolution they had in mind.
ReplyDeleteo be honest seeing how we went from Sam leaving in the night to Sam packing in the day that the figure was simply Don.
ReplyDeleteI want the Amelia stuff over with, no more of the vet and Sam's woman he loves rubbish when he has more chemistry when he was souless with the hooker. I get what was trying to be done, but in doing it Sam has turned into someone we can almost completely lift out. I don't want to say that but really think about it you can and unless there is a turn around it was getting to a pointlike you I wouldn't have missed him.
But I want the show to be about the two brothers but when thinking about it even the parts where they are bitching at each other can be done without Sam and you get a similar outcome especially seeing how we haven't had Sam verbally back down at all from his position in the last episode. Because of that all the Benny stuff could have been just as easily done with Martin stumbling onto Benny and calling Dean because he wasn't sure Benny was a vamp and then going off on one and Benny going to ground because Martin let other hunters know. Garth or Kevin could have gone as backup if they were desperate - its like Sam right now has to be shoehorned into the actual myth plot because he has to either be angry or go screw a married woman.
If Carver wants Sam to grow now that he has made his decision he can't have him bitch at Dean about wanting normal, he also has to give a lot more than he has been doing and he needs to verbally backdown from being so high minded because unless Carver does suddenly pull that Sam had been in a mad house before he stumbled onto dippy vet I will still be half hearted about anything Sam does.
More Sheriff Mills!!!!!!! Agreed!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe leaving at night/leaving during the day thing is either a big continuity screw-up (which would surprise me), or there's more to his departure we haven't seen yet. I'm becoming less optimistic that we're going to learn that there's something a bit hinky about the whole Amelia thing, but I'm not quite ready to rule it out yet.
ReplyDeleteYeah, my reaction to her was the same. I never could see what Sam could possibly see in her.
ReplyDeleteWell, Jessica aside (and we don't know much about her, really, since she was barely a presence), Sam's taste in women has been ... interesting. A werewolf. A demon. A vila (? sp?) looks to have been his first girlfriend. Possibly a second demon, if you see something at least potentially sexual in his initial relationship with Meg. As for non-creatures, well, there's the sexually aggressive doctor in the Siren episode. Am I missing any? Possibly. Regardless, Sam seems to go for women with ... shall we say, strong personalities?
ReplyDeleteI can see why Amelia might have rubbed some the wrong way, especially in her snippy first appearance, which I agree I thought was a bit harsher than it really needed to be. But then, the whole "unlikely romance" first meeting schtick is a long-standing trope of love stories--as if the writers figure there has to be something to overcome in order to make the relationship worthwhile. It's like there has to be something chippy or standoffish about the woman as a generic convention, for her to merit interest. Anyway, I'm just not seeing anything less promising in Amelia than in most of Sam's other relationships (if one can even call them that). And as we got to know her, I'll continue to contend that the show did a good job--within the limits of maybe a few minutes per episode in a show that's a horror/action vehicle--at depicting Sam and Amelia sympathetically as their relationship developed, right up to this episode.
Again, while i can perfectly understand moral repugnance at the adultery thing, it's more than a bit selective to point the finger of blame only at Amelia for that. But again, this is a HORROR show, and people making catastrophically bad choices is a staple of horror. Heck, the one genre in which having essentially unsympathetic protagonists is acceptable, even normal, horror. (Well, ok, maybe crime fiction, too, when the focus is on the criminals). (And I don't find either her or Sam particularly unsympathetic in this instance, in fact--but then, I'm almost 50 and have seen a lot of gnarly behaviour from a lot of people--not my wife!!!--over the years, so this situation kinda pales by comparison.)
Bad choices was something of a theme this episode, or so I'd suggest. As many have noted, neither Dean nor Sam look even remotely happy with their decisions at the end of the episode, and for good reason. But Sam and Dean being miserable is not news, nor is miserable characters in horror news. The genre rather depends on it, in fact.
Sam didnt know Dean had made the call to cut Benny lose when he decided to stay he chose to stay regardless of whether Dean cut Benny lose or not. Sam staying was not based on the condition that Deab muct cut Benny lose.
ReplyDeleteDean cut Benny lose after Sam had already decided to stay, that was his descion not based on Sam's ultimatum since Sam didnt know anyhting about it and had decided to stay anyway.
The only way that I can make the continuity of that work is that Amelia found Sam packing they had sex to try and see he had reason to stay which took them to the middle of the night and then he just left.
ReplyDeleteThough if that is the case it sets up a disturbing pattern, they first have a conversation about their loss - they get drunk and have sex
He is leaving for to 'give her and Don a chance' - they have sex rather than talking about it
He turns up she has to go see Don but comes back to see Sam - they have sex before talking about what they want
Is this meant to be an adult relationship? When did two people get such low self esteem that they use sex for reassurance before communicating or are they just turned on by drama queen moments?
Thanks so much! How much do I want a scene between Crowley and Naomi! Well - Sheppard and Tapping anyway...
ReplyDeleteI'll just say that Sam's taste in "women" (Jessica aside) has been, at times, questionable and in the case of Amelia, baffling. :-)
ReplyDeleteYes, the brothers did look miserable at the end of the episode. And I think, given all of the hurt the flung at each other lately, it's quite understandable. I'm not sure how much of it comes from the damage they've inflicted on each other or how much comes from each of them being sad they had to give up someone.
They're still mad and resentful at each other, but deep down they still care (and love) each other and I hope that that makes it to the surface once again. As brothers I know they'll fight and bicker and all those things, but it would be nice to have the "brotherly love" moments back to offset the fighting and bickering.
Yes I can, and the answer (sad as it may be) is that ... yes, this is what a great many adult relationships are like.
ReplyDeleteMaturing? well not in the way some want the Dean /Castiel relationship to go that has nothing to do either about caring whether Sam has someone except it gets him out of the way . I want Sam to have someone but until the writers learn to care about the someone they are giving Sam then it is pointless and soap opera romances are not it
ReplyDeleteI was talking about the brothers - that is what Carver said. The _brothers_ would have a more mature relationship. I haven't made a secret of the fact that I like Amelia. Given how close she and Dean were in their request that Sam be in or out, I would very much like to see Dean and Amelia meet.
ReplyDeleteYou are exactly correct! Good point!
ReplyDeleteI hadn't thought about that because I so quickly went into the "defend Sam from all haters" mode. LOL But they both made their decisions to stay independently of each other. Sam had two ultimatums: Dean, who told him he was either all the way in or out (meaning if he chooses Amelia he should stay there), and Amelia who basically told him the same thing.
Hmm, I forget exactly how it was worded, but Sam told Dean to break it off with Benny.
Wow, what a way to misrepresent what I said. Nowhere in my comment did I say don't post about your favorite character or that an opinion different than mine is less worthy.
ReplyDeleteWhat I said is, "SpoilerTV was one of the last boards where people could have intelligent debates. Now I see a lot of posters expounding on their Cas/Dean love and thinly veiled Sam hate."
A lot of posters are going on and on (and on) about their love for Dean and Cas and somewhere is many of those posts are derisive comments about Sam. And it's quite often an attack on his character rather than his OOC behavior this season. That is not debate by-the-way, but posters sharing their opinions and nowhere did I say don't share your opinion.
I'm also saying that there are more of these Dean/Cas love fest posters and less debate or analysis than before.
I'm just commenting on how I interpret the comments I am seeing. That's allowed right?
I will not continue this discussion because it's an attack on me rather than a discussion of anything connected to Supernatural.
I am not engaging in Sam or Dean hate. I don't think I ever said anything anti-Sam or anti-Dean in my life. What I am saying is that I am seeing Sam-hate on this board now.
ReplyDeleteSorry if I misjudged you, but from the way you phrased that sentence it sure looked like all those things were connected. "People who expound on their Cas/Dean love also provide thinly veiled Sam hate and have less intelligent discussions."
ReplyDeleteI can categorize myself as someone who loves Dean/Cas, so I took it personally that you'd take my opinions as Sam hate and somehow less intelligent.
Once again, if this isn't what you meant, then I apologize.
(Although I personally haven't seen any Sam hate, just criticism of his current storyline.)
I wasn't accusing you - I was agreeing with you. This has been the first set of comments where I've felt like the debate has gotten a bit away from the episode itself.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to agree. I've been reading through the comments again, looking for the Sam hate, thinly-veiled or otherwise, and I can't say I'm finding an overabundance of what I would define as Sam "hate." Some harsh comments, sure (Not to mention some harsh ones about Dean, too--e.g. about him bringing a kille rinto the world by bringing back Benny, which seems like an over-simplification to me), and certainly a lot of complaints about what people perceive as OOC behaviour from Sam, though I can't really say I agree much with that read. I will say that Sam not searching for Dean at all is for me somewhat problematic, but I wouldn't rule it as necessarily OOC, so much as "not how I want/expect him to act"--these are not the same thing. (Though I can understand why many might have more of a problem with it than I do.) I mean, Sam and Dean both have been through multiple wringers the last few years, and at the end of S7, as far as Sam knew, Dean was dead. Dead dead dead dead and dead. With no way to figure out how he might get him back. In the "Mystery Spot" episode, he could go obsessive hunter because he knew the Trickster might be able to undo the death. When Dean was in hell ... well, that folk could get out of hell was already established, and Sam KNEW he was there--and still failed to get him out. After S7? How would he even begin to know where to look? and even assuming he could be sure Dean was in hell or heaven, well, he already knows he can't get him out of hell ... and would YOU want someone to get you out of heaven? I can buy (without much liking) him simply throwing up his hands in despair and running away. I'm actually more troubled by his abandonment of Kevin.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I remain slightly optimistic that more is to be revealed, especially since we have had clearly established, with Cas, that Naomi is capable of and willing to mess with folks' minds to get them to do what she wants and not even realize it's not their own choice. Might be be soon about to learn that Sam's abandonment of hunting was the result of such intervention? (Or can it only be done to angels?) That Dean's escape from Purgatory screwed that up, necessitating the release of Cas from Purgatory and use of him as an agent to inhibit Sam and Dean? Maybe. Of course, if Naomi can simply haul anyone she wants to off to heaven and mess with their memories, why she'd choose to use Cas this way rather than simply directly messing with Sam and/or Dean is a bit of a problem--but it's a bit of a problem regardless.... In any logical universe Sam and Dean would have been squashed like bugs by at least one of the godlike forces they've encountered....
As for Sam hate in this discussion, though, ... I don't know ... specific examples?
Example?
ReplyDeleteRemember in Time after Time, Sam did not know where Dean was or if he was even alive, but still he and Jody looked. All I am asking is a good reason, other than I just ran, hit a dog and met a girl. That is just not Sam.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking a great deal about this, and the only thing that makes sense is flight reaction and fear of making the same mistakes again. I'm not counting "Time After Time" because they used it as a plot device just so they can have Dean in the past and go "Back to the Future" on Sam.
ReplyDeleteTo feel better about Sam, think about all the other times people were brought back, when they shouldn't have been brought back. We have John selling his soul and ending up in hell, then Dean doing the same and being in hell for 40 years. In "Mystery Spot", Sam basically turned into a psycho for couple of months. After Dean went to hell, Sam befriended Ruby which lead to releasing Lucifer from hell and apocalypse. Next time he was brought back (again), it was without a soul (and he did some terrible things while soulless). Cas is always saying how every resurrection feels worse than the one before, how every time he comes back it feels like punishment. Then you have the end of season 7 and the only thing all this fighting gave him was ----- that's right, he lost absolutely everyone he cares about, there was no one left. So in a way, flight was his own personal post traumatic stress disorder and his way of dealing with it.
Once again, ***I don't like the way it was executed***, but this type of thinking up there helped me to at least understand it a bit and make peace with it and hope for the best. I really don't like it when people dismiss Sam's whole character this season or call it only a deception, because this way of thinking negates everything Sam has been through.
Dean being so angry that Sam didn't look for him - you have to see it through his eyes, too. Basically, he came back from purgatory where Cas pushed him away and basically showed him that he'd rather stay in purgatory than go home with Dean. Then he comes back to Sam just so he can find out that Sam "didn't care enough to look for him" and basically rejected him, too. It makes sense from Dean's POV to be this angry because he has a buttload of abandonment issues. That's why he's raving about Benny, how perfect and reliable he is -- Benny just didn't have the chance to "fail" him yet.
I guess this is the perception Carver was talking about, seeing things by putting yourself into the position of each of these characters? *shrugs* There's still 13 episodes left, I'm interested to know how he'll unravel all of this.
Someone DISlikes a comment expressing repsect for others' opinions? Say what?
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen that one in a while so don't remember whether they already knew there was a time travel component involved by the time Dean got zapped or not, but regardless, they did have at least a bit to go on already there, and besides, he was still mid case. Solving the case and getting Dean back dovetailed.
ReplyDeleteReally? You expect me to go back through all those posts on different topics so i can give you examples? I don't spend that much time on the boards, and definitely have no plans to spend my time re-reading older posts. Besides, if I did that, and posted the comments here, they would all be taken out of context of the original post. Can you imagine me posting other posts here just to make a point? That's be a nightmare, not to mention a violation of the rules of etiquette.
ReplyDeleteSeason 4 was my least favorite until this season.... I have no problem with the brothers fighting, but this season they don't seem to care at all. I watch for the brothers and I just can't get past that.
ReplyDeleteI expect you to back up a claim such as an accusation of hate-mongering, yes. "Hate" is a strong term that gets thrown around very casually these days, as a way of dismissing any criticism of what one likes, whether that criticism is really "hate" or simply not what the hate-accuser wants to hear. I DID go back through the comments here and didn't find a single thing I'd call "hate" directed at Sam. I did find some strong criticisms, of him and of how he's been written this season, but hate? Hauling out "x-hate" has become a lazy default setting, much like calling someone a "fascist" or "homophobe" or "Misogynist" or "" has been used as a handy way to short-circuit debate in various contexts over the years. One discussion group I'm part of elsewhere has several members who are very fond of branding anything short of unqualified praise of their admired figure as "hate."
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else, I'd be curious to see how/why something I wouldn't define as "hate" might be explained to me as actual, real "hate" and not just "something I disagree with."
That's exactly the way I feel. If I could have had the story of season 4 told to me in one quick session, the story line would be exciting... but going through the whole season was just painful. But, there were some great episodes and parts of episodes that I absolutely loved.
ReplyDeleteWith this season I haven't watched a single episode two times all the way through... Up until Season 8, except for a couple of episodes, I have usually watched an episode at least 3 times before the end of the night.
This season I can think of a few episodes that "seem" like Dean episodes to me (like the season opener), but not a single truly Dean Centric episode.... The season is half way over and that is unheard of. For Sam, I can barely remember a few scenes where he seemed to have much of an impact let alone a whole episode. However, I can remember two distinctly Benny episodes.... and one Garth episode. One of the episodes that "seemed" like a Dean episode (Hunter Heroici) actually might have been more of a Castiel episode. Let's not even mention the Bitten episode that wasn't central to any character we know or care about (*grrrr*). To me, this is just wrong. Of course, my opinion might be colored by the fact that I can't make myself watch an episode more than once, so if there is some deep insight that we are supposed to have gotten from one of these episodes, it has totally escaped me. There were no questions about whether In My Time of Dying, Lazarus Rising, or Time After Time were Dean episodes. There were no questions about whether All Hell Breaks Loose 1, After School Special or Unforgiven were Sam episodes... Where are the brother centric episodes this season? I guess this last episode might have been considered "brother centric" because at least they talked. That is just sad to me.
What is this show and where did Supernatural go? Every week I hope that I will have a peek of the characters that I have come to know and love and most of the time I am learning about someone else or finding out something about the characters that just doesn't fit.
Now, besides losing the amulet, I have another canon fact that will eat at me every single day. There is no way that Sam would not look for Dean. He might look and be forced to give up, but he wouldn't just drive until he hits a dog then settle down with a girl that doesn't even like him.
Where are the characters that I have known for seven years? I WANT THEM BACK!
That was always my problem. When Dean was with Lisa, Lisa knew about what they did and offered to still be there for him even though he was hunting. Then, she was nearly attacked when Dean was a vampire and they had real issues that were tied to the story. Everything with Amelia could have been handled in that one episode, but nope. Every time Dean was doing something interesting with Benny or Castiel, Sam would start thinking about Amelia in some common place scene that had nothing to do with what was happening. It seemed to be just something that they gave Sam to do to keep him occupied while Dean was dealing with Supernatural stuff. I think flashbacks to Purgatory were the B side of the story... Sam's flashbacks were more like commercials... something we had to get through to get back to the action. In the beginning I was watching them looking for Why Didn't Sam Look For Dean. But, once I found out that we were never going to be given a satisfactory answer, I lost all interest. After the first episode they meant nothing more than, here let's give Sam something to do instead of just sending him to the library and forgetting about him.... Now he gets to stop on the steps and have a flash back about fixing a sink before he goes into the library and disappears.
ReplyDeleteDean first notices Castiel just walking along the street when Castiel first got back from Purgatory. Dean probably thought he was hallucinating, then Castiel pops up at the Hotel. My guess is that Naomi probably dropped him off on the street in a convenient place for Castiel to just track him down. Remember when he searched the entire town for Gabriel's Horn in Third Man (maybe)... So, if Naomi plopped Castiel in the town and implanted a command to watch Sam and Dean, he probably was compelled to search the town until he found Dean.
ReplyDeleteBut "How did Castiel find Sam?" is a good question, especially if Dean wasn't still in the same town as Sam. Dean just told Castiel that he was gone and Castiel tracked him down.
If someone saved my child he could ask for anything and get it on a silver platter with whipped cream... literally.
ReplyDeleteOMG you are really over-the-top. Please reread - what we were talking about was the tone of the board in the past "few weeks" NOT just this thread. Please read in context. I am NOT going to go back thru a couple of weeks of posts just to prove something to you. If all you want to do is pick a fight, then please respond to someone else and ignore me. As for criticizing Sam, I'm one who has been doing that because he is so OOC. But there is a big difference in tone is some of those criticisms.
ReplyDeleteTo answer the violation of netiquette... can you just imagine if I went thru weeks of posts and reposted them here? Not the time or place, and not something I would consider spending a minute of my time doing.
Given your apparent definition of "hate," I guess I shouldn't be surprised you think I'm "really over the top" or trying to pick a fight. Neither is true. Nor would it be a violation of netiquette to quote people; it would just be a lot of work. No worries, though; I'll be happy to ignore you from here on out....
ReplyDelete