Today's User Submitted Daily (USD) Poll was submitted by SimonAitken who was picked randomly from our Poll Submissions (see below).
Let us know in the comments what you voted for and why? Want to see your Poll posted on the site? Click the Button below
Rules
- Polls need to be TV/Movie related.
- Polls should NOT be time sensitive as they is no guarantee when the polls will be posted. eg Don't post polls like "Who will die on next weeks episode".
- You must supply a Poll Question, and the possible choices. Please try to keep the number of options to a reasonable amount (Max of 20 Items)
- You can only Submit 1 Poll Per Day. Previous polls submitted will still be eligible for posting (ie you don't need to keep submitting the same poll everyday)
Each day we will pick one submitted poll at random to post on the site.
NO! This would be the worst thing they could do. He betrayed the entire team, kidnapped Skye, tortured Bobbi and seems to be becoming more evil by the minute.
Nope. Never. Just no. There isn't a team member he hasn't hurt, he feels no remorse. And really Ward became an interesting character once his bad side was revealed, let him form his own Evil team of Evil and let him face off against SHIELD, that will be fun.
At this point...no. But I wouldn't put it past the writers to spin it in a way that it will eventually happen. One thing for sure, interaction between him and the team is always fun.
I don't care as long they stop what they're doing with him. Ideally I'd like for him to go to his new spin-off, they're just totally ruining him on SHIELD and it's annoying me.
They're not ruining him, it's just that he's so messed up that he can't see a way out towards his goal - finding a place where he can belong, feel wanted - that doesn't involve massive amounts of violence. He's in a self-destructive downwards spiral that'll either end with his death or with someone that knows him, cares for him, understands what he's been through and is also loved by Ward extending him a hand of help, of hope.
Not really no, he was by far my favourite character and suddenly we barely saw him, and when we did he had what's one of the worst storylines I've ever seen in a show imo. If he just went to a spin-off and they dropped his whole entire Kara storyline then I'd be fine, even if he was still bad. But atm I'd rather they killed him off instead of what they're doing.
At this point, no. Absolutely no. For this to ever be an option he needs to earn it, REALLY earn it. He needs to truly feel remorse about what he did and start acting selflessly before he can remotely get a shot at it.
It most certainly pained me to see him being so brutal and twisted in the finale. I struggled all season to understand why he was still acting psychotically like in his John Garrett days and I think I finally got a grasp at it.
For what it's worth, I think season 3A will be the final stand of Ward's villainness. They can't keep this going for too long or the perceived effectiveness of SHIELD to fight threats diminishes, so I expect the hand in question will be offered to him by the winter finale, likely by his brother Thomas. The show has, after all, created a big mystery surrounding the life of the Ward family and I think they fully intend to explore this someday, and they can't do it with Grant Ward dead.
I do hope whatever they have planned for him starts to unfold soon, they've dragged it out for far too long imo. I may not still be watching the show by then though, AOS has been at the bottom of my shows list for a while now, I've been on the verge of dropping it since S2 started.
Or his sister. Somehow everyone forgets that there is also a sister. The thing is, I actually do understand where Ward is coming from. He just doesn't really understand how messed up he truly is, and is totally unable to reconcile the fact that he is responsible for a lot of his choices, no matter what Garrett did to him. I guess his brother was spot on when he said that Ward likes to see himself as the hero.
I don't quite believe the sister would be a factor because she's a non-entity so far. We only know she exists, while Thomas has been hinted throughout the series.
We don't bite hahahahaha (I thunk lol) But really they should speak. I'm curious why they think he deserves redemption. And it better NOT be about the well :\
Before I start this post, let me just state that I voted NO, the Grant Ward I saw in the finale does not deserve a place back in SHIELD..
That said, why wouldn't his life's traumas be a good reason he deserves redemption? He's most certainly not ready for it, yes, but if Cal got one why can't he eventually? Cal was brutal, murderous, twisted the whole of season 2 and by the end of it we got to see a side of him that allowed us to accept the bittersweet closure to his arc, getting another shot at a happy life. This may very well be what they have in store for Ward.
Possible...all the talk about how he ended up with the Inhumas was very ominous. Thing is, if he is Inhuman, Ward is too. I am not sure if I am prepared for that.
Yes of course his life's traumas are a good reason for him to be redeemed. However, they are not a reason for him to be a cold blooded murderer and a traitor. How long can his actions be credited to his trauma? Like you said Cal was a monster but he really did want to change. Ward doesn't. Even his apology and his remorse didn't feel (or look) genuine. He is not sorry for what he did and what he will do. Then why should we forgive him?
I agree that, at this point, we shouldn't. He's not only absolutely not regretting his actions but he's also upping the ante now. I'm willing to look at the current situation with a glass half full, though: Kara's death unambiguously tore down the wall he erected around his emotional core, he's no longer an unreadable enigma, he's totally acting on emotion now. Recreating a HYDRA for himself to destroy SHIELD is all that he's left now and we all know Coulson will crush it with ease, perhaps when that time comes he'll be emotionally ready to accept a helpful hand from someone who loves him, cares for him and believes he can be a better person, who in my mind was always meant to be his brother Thomas.
As long as they fix the finale that doesn't make any sense - I've seen at least three anti-Warders say they're now on his side because the writing was so shitty - then yes. But right now? I love him so no.
Every single one of them was screwed over and out of character to make the ~plot twists~ work and I'm not about to get in that rant for like the fourth time but let's just say this is not the show nor the characters I fell in love with in season one. Thanks for ruining it for the rest of us who actually liked the show for what it was before, critics and people who hated the show.
There's really no way to fix this mess but I'll take the "it was all a dream" trope I hate or body snatchers or Jemma going back in time to fix this disaster before anything bad can happen (thanks, alien blob).
Eh, I think Ward does want to be a good guy, he just has no idea how to be one. But he needs to understand that he is not the way he sees himself to have a shot on redemption.
I think it's more akin to Ward wanting to belong somewhere and feel wanted by those around him, but he keeps pushing people with his violent and manipulative antics.
I honestly don't know. It was reeeeeeeally fun to have the team back together (and it brought quite a different side in Simmons), but he seems to be going the Hydra route... I don't know, maybe he'll see Skye's in some sort of danger and he comes to the rescue (only to be shaken to oblivion now that Skye can wield more than a gun). Ultimately I find it highly improbable, what with making EVERYBODY in Coulson's team hate him... Maybe next season they try to weaponize the T.A.H.I.T.I. tech (making another Dollhouse homage) and they end up forgetting the last year only for an episode (a la "Tabula Rasa" or "Spin the Bottle") to be able to reunite the team. Yeah, the possibilities are endless.
There are 2 separate questions here, and that's important. 1. Can Ward be redeemed? 2. If the answer to the first question is yes, can he be back on Coulson's team someday?
I'm not going to address the first question at length. It's not what the poll is about, and frankly, I don't have a clear answer. My "gut" response is that he's irredeemable, but then, it's possible Black Widow did things no less heinous than Ward before she reformed (and whether or not she was literally brainwashed in the Red Room remains in contention, so she may not have anymore of an excuse in that regard than he does). I *will* say that so far, he's done zero to indicate that he's seeking redemption and in fact keeps getting worse... but again, we don't know how many bad things BW did before her heel-face turn, so I digress.
As for the second question, however... the answer isn't a no, it's a HELL NO. Nothing and no one will ever convince me that the people who were personally betrayed (all of them), tortured (Bobbi) and nearly killed (Fitz, Simmons, Hunter and May) by Ward can believably accept him as one of their own again. It's just not happening. They are human beings, not angels. Even if they WERE capable of forgiving him considering his abusive past, and that's a very big "if" (some people can't even forgive the childhood bully who tormented them, for example), trust is a separate thing entirely. They can't and won't trust him again, ever. A plot development like that would be preposterous and make AoS completely jump the shark for the sake of appeasing a relatively small portion of the fans, my opinion about whom I'd better keep to myself as to not be rude.
LOL at me getting into this again but whatever. It feels like we somehow accidentally stumbled into the darkest timeline.
First of all, three WOC died in one episode - and I didn't even like Jiaying but it's not fair that she got screwed over so Cal - a comic supervillain (and white man) could get his redemption. That's on top of Trip, Gonzales, and Bakshi dying in previous episodes.
Skye spent her whole life looking for her family and oops, they're both monsters.
Jemma's spent the whole season dealing with a trauma that was never addressed and then got sucked into the alien blob. And Fitz isn't that reckless in the first place (and also, why didn't it eat him?) so that doesn't work.
Poor Coulson lost his hand for no reason and May bounced right after it happened (and was cold to Skye when she was sorry for her actions) to be with her engaged ex-husband. Um, that's not the Melinda May I know.
Bobbi wasn't even sorry about what she did to Kara? I don't buy it. I love her and that was so out of character. Plus, they had her get shot solely so Lance would forgive her!
Not to mention they spent all season victim blaming both Ward and Kara for the abuse and brainwashing. May was so out of character last week blaming Kara for what happened to her when it wasn't her fault. Coulson handed Ward over to his abuser, which is so screwed up I'm still pissed about it. They mocked Grant's abuse to his face. Um, what the hell?
Plus, the writers themselves had him say it three times so Grant "I was never loyal to Hydra only loyal to Garrett" Ward would never lead Hydra WHEN THEY TORTURED KARA IN THE FIRST PLACE. And I'm fuming because they retconned Grant killing Buddy. There's no possible way he killed the dog - it was all Garrett.
They never once brought up Garrett's kidnapping and and abuse of Grant and I thought it was because he hadn't realized it yet but nope, the show chose not to acknowledge it. Oh, and he didn't get therapy he clearly needed either.
Also, the fact that Kara and Grant's relationship - which none of us even wanted in the first place because we were hoping to see two abuse victims heal from what happened to them and overcome it - developed off-screen in a few episodes. How much time passed since 2.10? Like at least a month? I don't buy they felt that strongly about each other and it was a weird and gross co-dependent relationship. And since when did Grant want to kill May? That came out of nowhere.
As much as people want to deny it, they dangled the redemption arc in front of Ward fans in 2.18 and 2.19 then ripped the rug out from underneath us until we had no hope left (plus mocked a fanbase on screen. Who does that to their fans?) and now we're pissed.
When there are multiple people who hate Ward saying the twist at the end with him didn't make sense and they're now standing with him because of it? Then there's a problem.
There's probably a lot more that I'm forgetting but you get the gist. LOL, sorry for the rant.
It may just be me, but I feel that Cal was literally driven crazy by the things he'd gone through like having to literally sew his wife back together from pieces. When he ripped the men who came to him for treatment to shreds in "A Hen in the Wolf House", for example, that certainly didn't seem cold-blooded and rational. He became consumed by rage and lashed out. And most of the time, his behavior seemed pretty manic. While Ward clearly has some serious mental issues, his general demeanor - and the bad things he does - strike me as rational, a method to the madness, even if his motivations and general outlook on life aren't.
So that's a big difference to me in how redeemable one is versus the other, despite the fact that I'm not ruling out a Ward redemption one-hundred percent.
Dalton himself was encouraging a lot of that stand with ward bullshit so it was funny to see the reference to the show glad he's stopped now after ward going full on villain but I do understand he has a family and aos is his job but ward is too far gone for me to ever support him
They've betrayed one another too much for Grant to be back on the team, but he could possibly end up an occasional ally. Oh, what am I saying? A show where Bobbi Morse was proud of betraying Kara to HYDRA (she ought to get a plaque commissioned for her wall for that, the way she talked about it. Sounded like her proudest moment), everybody tries to shoot Grant Ward in the back every time he tries to be helpful, they took Jiaying from a person with a principled stand against organizations like SHIELD (a potential Magneto to Skye's Xavier) and went "LOL no, she's really an evil vampire" for the sake of wrapping up her storyline, and Melinda May, who in Bahrain *knew* what it meant to deal with someone mind-controlled, showed no empathy for a brainwashed Kara Palamas----this show has the deep understanding of moral complexity of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
Well, the "Method to the Madness" part is certainly true and we have John Garrett to thanks for that, but I think that part of his personality may have been tore down with Kara's death. He seems to be acting much more on emotion in that last scene where he starts a new Hydra, like he lost everything that he thought to be good in his life and revenge is all that he has left. I can totally see Ward being completely broken when Coulson and SHIELD inevitably destroy his Fail-Hydra with ease next season.
Beyond that, I can't help but feel there's something seriously off with the life in the Ward family. I mean, how can two parents fail so abysmally that one brother manipulated the other to kill the third one, the second escaped military academy to burn down the family house and the third presumably had to fake his death to have a shot at a normal life, assuming my Lincoln/Thomas theory is true? That's way too much warped up to have a soap opera explanation in a spy show.
I love black widow but they differentiated ward and her the minute her threw fitzsimmons off that plame The thing is, I don't doubt for a second Natasha has been undercover and tortured and killed the people she was then surrounded with for her goals. The difference is that we've a) never seen that happen and b) never cared about those people she betrayed.
Ward hurt the people we loved and didn't just betray the group but the viewers in a way as well. That said I do like his character, he's interesting. I would have prefered if he stayed on his own though. No more Hydra please.
Well, the "Trust" part certainly is forever shattered, they'd always be keeping their guard up around him in some level no matter what for fear he'd betray them again. The betrayal stain, however, could be lessened with selfless sacrifice, and in Ward's case it'd have to be A LOT OF selfless sacrifice, because really, he reached a whole new level of malevolence with that torture scene and that sadistic plan to kill the first person who entered Bobbi's room.
Really, you got Bobbi was proud from that scene? If Kara had talked to her at the base she would have gotten a completely different response. Bobbi's attitude was because she was kidnapped and tortured. She made a call not knowing that Kara was at the safe house, it was the least worse option. But of course WArd Shippers think everyone but him are the bad guys, al his actions are just misinterrpeted.
I liked a lot of your points, but I would like to point out that Bobbi was getting tortured when she basically said that she wasn't sorry for what she did. If someone had a gun pointed at me and was going to kill me the second they heard an apology, I wouldn't be falling over myself to make it right.
I loved your point about Cal. That somewhat left a bad taste in my mouth.
As for Jemma and Fitz, the alien item thing was changing, then reforming shape. I bet if Fitz had been in the room, then he would have gotten "eaten" too. But I think you are right that he wouldn't have been that careless in the first place.
I think that Kara and Grant's relationship was strong for two reasons. One, I honestly think Grant was using her (knowingly or unknowingly). Two, they had both been taken advantage of. When that happens, you tend to be needy and cling to people in unhealthy ways.
Honestly, I could go either way in Ward being redeemed and joining the team. But at some point, even though he had a bad past, he is responsible for the choices he makes. If he knows he is screwed up, maybe he should take steps to get counselling through a therapist and not by murdering his family.
I didn't hear any kind of regret from Bobbi Morse for what happened to Agent 33. I'm not asking for a groveling apology. Just a little sincere regret. Bobbi regretted nothing.
I don't disagree, and selfless sacrifice would certainly go a long way towards the forgiveness that he might be able to receive one day. While we both rule out trust completely, I don't think forgiveness from Coulson's team is utterly impossible, but it would take very good writing to pull it off. And it certainly can't be any time soon.
Ward can probably be redeemed in the long run if the writers decide that he at some point regret any of his actions. However, as things stand now there are slim chances for him to be back in the team, especially given that all of the original team has tried to kill him (except Coulson). If Ward continues his psycho behaviour, that will also rule out any redemption arch. Personally, I think that a redemption arch (not the same as him being back on the team) would be more interesting since being a villain/psycho is pretty onedimensional in the long run.
You have to remember - just because we didn't see BW's actions on screen, doesn't make them any less real. To be fair (and I say this as someone who's about as far from a "Stand With Ward" fan as possible), we as viewers have an emotional response to all the atrocities Ward has committed: we've seen it all go down, and many of the people he's hurt are beloved characters of ours. So obviously, we feel a lot more strongly about his actions than BW's - her victims are nameless, faceless people to us, and we only know her as a "good guy".
That being said, if it's ever revealed that BW betrayed SHIELD before she reformed, her presence on the Avengers roster would be just as ridiculous as the prospect of Ward being back on Coulson's team (well, maybe not completely because the Avengers still wouldn't be the people she personally crossed, but still).
With a Gun to her head by a killer? If she had "admitted her guilt" his closure would have been a bullet in the head and Bobbi knew that, and so do we. Bobbi made it clear, she didn't know Kara was in the safehouse whe she gave it up, how could she? If at the Playground Kara had confronted Bobbi in front of Coulson/May etc I bet you her response would have been completely different. Bobbi isn't the bad guy of the scene or the series, she may make calls for "the greater good" that ends up with bad results (other Shields assualt, Skye for example) but that's an agent making hard calls with all the information they have available (just like May's call in Barhain). Ward doest have any justification for his actions.
At this point you are talking at least a season if not more trying to redeem himself, and even then, there's no way the team would trust him. None of the original's trust him, can't see Bobbi/Hunter/Mack doing anything other than killing him on sight after what he did to Bobbi.
I don't even think he realized how screwed up he was and the fact that the show villainized and blamed two abuse victims for their actions leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
This post is spot on so I recommend reading it http://pieces-solving-a-puzzle.tumblr.com/post/118952875931/about-the-finale
Then why not say, "What's the point if you are going to kill me? It's not like this was my proudest moment, but what am I supposed to say with a gun to my head?" Not this "This was the best decision EVER!" business
Ok, that was too broad a comment, I do get that there are Ward fans and shippers that can accept the character for what we've seen, and any points/conversations we've had has always been logical. As I've said before, I do like him for what he is (though I could have done without seeing the torture scene), but I think in some part the writers had to go that far because of elements of the fanbase that were willing to creatively edit his actions to make a character that didn't exist (ie, well they didn't show us him burning his family so that didn't happen).
I like Ward as the bad guy that he is, and I think it's kind of cool to watch the Season 1 episodes when he's riding Skye for mistakes and then you think, she's an Agent, the directors protege, wih her own team standing up etc, and he was just a "Bad Seed".
You got your way. But instead of people who watch the show not supporting Grant Ward anymore, a lot of people will just stop watching the show. It's appeal will just get more selective, to reference This Is Spinal Tap.
Yeah, I don't think either the show or Bobbi were trying to justify what she did. However, as you say, she knew she wouldn't get out of there alive if she gave Kara and Ward what they wanted, a full-on admission of responsibility and an apology, so she had to stall. Also, I honestly can't judge her for not wanting to give a psychopath like Ward the satisfaction of giving in completely and doing what he wanted. It's possible Bobbi would've shown more regret if Kara was her only captor, but with Ward there, she was just too disgusted to play right into their hands with an apology.
I *do* think it would be nice if the show brought this up again next season, and Bobbi admitted to Hunter or someone else that she regrets what she did and the consequences to Kara. That way, we'll know that her attitude in the finale had more to do with the situation than her actual feelings about what she did.
Because its her nature to be defiant, something we've seen from Bobbi since she was introduced... She knew the odds were she was dead and wasn't going to give Ward anything. But to fit your nartive, like always it gets twisted into the other person is the bad guy, Ward just needs to explain his motive better.
I agree. A possible redemption arch will take a long time to tell with clever writing. I think the writers will make him extremely evil at the start of Season 3 and then bring in Thomas as a complicating factor. If Ward stays über-evil throughout the season he will probably be killed off at the end os S3.
For the most part, I disagree. In terms of certain plot points (like Jiaying suddenly being an uber-villain and Kara being Ward's new motivation in life), however, that assessment is on the money.
Sure, and as I said I have no doubt that if Kara had come to her on base there would have been a completely different response, and like you I do hope the topic gets revisited, perhaps whle she's healing from her wounds. But at that moment with what she knew Ward was capable of...
Remember Bobbi is a trained interogetor herself (as seen with Bakshi), she knew what the most likely outcomes were.
No, because the point isn't that what Bobbi to Kara was right, it's that not completely rolling over for her captors and torturers is more than understandable.
Oh so now to justify Ward, you want Shield to be the bad guys for taking action against Hydra. I'm impressed/horrified at the lengths some of the Ward fanbase will go to, to be honest.
What's next Cap was a bad guy for taking down the Insight Carriers? Fury for killing Pierce?
Actually it does, you Ward shippers thought it was "best writing ever" when they manipulated the sitation to bring the team back together (as evidenced by the posts you and others made), everyone else thought it was forced and balant. Then when they switched it up and didn't go for the lazy option they proved that they are good writers.
I'm saying that actions taken by the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers of SHIELD are treated very differently than similar actions taken by The Bad Guys (TM)
I agree. But there is a lot of excusing actions of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers while using similar actions taken by the Designated Black Hat as the reason He Is Totally Evil.
Your right Shield shouldn't take any steps to stop the people bent on World domination and Genocide. Ward in kiling random people he meets is far more morally sound...
I had a lot of hope for Ward for a long time. That "We got the old team back" moment was great and nostalgic, and probably the last time we will see the original team together. After the finale, I just need to accept he is bad and will stay bad. There is a .0000001 percent chance though that he is assembling that ex hyrdra team to help shield.. lol
If you can't figure out the difference between a Spy agency meat to protect the world infiltatring and disrupting a evil organisation and a guy who has btrayed said agency and killed plenty of innocents, then mybe it's your issue.
In the new BSG, they explored those shades of gray when people in the Fleet tortured Cylons for information and made other morally gray calls. There was that awareness of the Abyss staring back. None of this awareness touches the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers of SHIELD
NOPE! He killed his girlfriend thinking he was killing May, so he's done with the team. Also, I not only hope, but I think he will die in the S3 mid-season finale.
She had to choose between giving Hydra a safe house she had no idea was occupied or blowing her cover and causing death of twelve agents... I'm sure she regretted what happened to Kara but she had to weigh an unknown variable against a known twelve agents - I don't think she regrets making the decision (which is different to regretting what happened to Kara) and would make same decision again.
But she wasn't going to give them the satisfaction (esp. Ward) and also I think she was trying to provoke them into making her death quick and ending the torture, or goading them into making a mistake.
Okay, now you're just ignoring the actual content of the response you got. sparky42 wasn't differentiating between SHIELD and Hydra based on the "hats they wear" but their actions. One is out to protect the world, even if it deploys questionable methods to that end; the other is out to enslave it and remake it in its Nazi image
The show has been stable in the ratings (1.5-1.6, with ONE instance of 1.4) during the entire second half of Season 2. The lower rating for the season finale, 1.3, is puzzling, but clearly has nothing to do with the direction the show took regarding Ward - or anything else in the finale - as viewers obviously don't know what's going to happen in an episode before they watch it.
But nobody bats an eye about the questionable actions. Even the supposed good guys. Sometimes the good guys have to use the bad guys' methods. They don't lose a night of sleep over it.
Exactly! I'm glad they didn't redeem him and instead made him go full on to the dark side. I much rather have him like he is now, and then have him die at some point on S3.
I agree with you, I just want to add, that for a character to want redemption, we actually need to see that he wants forgiveness for the things he's done. Ward has never said "I'm sorry I did this to you, I hurt you, and that hurts me." Instead he said "I'm sorry you guys don't like me like you use to, I miss what ya'll did for me, but I'm not sorry for what I did because other people made meeeeeeeeeee, whaaaaaaaaaaa."
He doesn't want redemption, he wants closure, and it seems to me that the way he wants to get that closure is by murdering everyone who "wronged" him. He's not atoning, he's delving deeper, and that's why he should NEVER be part of Coulson's team again.
I think he's made pretty clear that he doesnt want to be. Getting in just to get Bobbi and now looking for a vendetta with May. He doesnt desrve redemption. It's too late now.
As I've said, when the writers gave you and the other shippers Ward back on the bus (through significant manipulation) you thought they were the best writers ever. When they just continued a character arc that had started in Season 1, they are "worst writers ever".
That's a good summing up of the Ward we've seen alright. Even his comments to Fitz on the Quinn Jet were needless cruel and he knew it. He is a functioning Physcopath I think. From what we've seen I don't think he actually has empathy to oters and the consequences of his actions.
It is an in-house production that ABC/Disney is making money off of internationally and through things like Netflix and iTunes. Season four is guaranteed just for syndication. They may even tried to push 100 episodes so it meets up with Avengers 3A, which is honestly where I think they want to end the show anyway. Just keep in mind these are the same people who renewed American Crime which proves that ABC cares about something other than live ratings for their in-house productions.
Agents of Shield villains don't last long, they always die and everytime Ward tried to fight the "team" he got his ass handed to him. Him as a villian won't last long. Like you said, mid season finale would be the longst he will survive. The question is who from the team will kill him? at this point they are all racing to see who will get to do it.
I got to think Skye, it would be a fairly good bookend for the Hacker/Consultant/rookie of Season 1, who grew into an agent in Season 2, to a team leader in Season 3 to handle the bad seed that letured her so much.
The problem with the Nielsen rating system is just such a small sample populationof about 50,000 people representing 300 million people. If one of those Ward shippers has a rating box they can significantly and disproportionately impact the system.
The moment he dropped Fitzsimmons out of the plane was also the moment he throw away his chance to get back to the team. At that point what he did terrible things, he played the team and killed Hand and others but there was still a chance because people like Fitz still believe him. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he had the chance to stop what Garret was doing and start redeeming himself. He didn't and since then he only did more terrible things. It was almost impossible before the finale but after what he did to Bobbi and tried to do with May and Hunter, i have no doubt he won't ever be with the team again.
Honestly, I think the Ward fans who liked him as a redeemable character were a very vocal minority. I have the feeling the main audience was simply enjoying how creepy the character is now. Easily one of the best villains in the MCU.
I don't think he will last as a villain because he is a weak villain. He was made a villain with the purpose of getting closure for a death he caused. He is totally messed up. He is going after people at SHIELD and is pretty clear whoever tries that end up getting toasted relatively fast. The best case scenario he wil have a clarity moment and will be "redeemed" by being killed protecting someone from the team. Right now this scenario is hard to pictured because he inflicted so much pain to pretty much all the members of the team so even if he sacrifices himself for one he still hurts so many other that is hard to forget.
His fans are taking pride to be responsible about the finale ratings and using that to harras the writers and producers of the show on social media. They think they are the center of the universe.. It's funny because right until the finale they were going crazy with theories about what would happen and saying how excited they were. I don't know what's up with the aos ratings but i know it's not because of them.
Yeah, he's not a proper Hydra villain i.e. he's goal is not to end the world but rather he only has personal motives for his villany, That can't end well for him. On the other hand, the writers has not explored his family to the full, for example brother Thomas, so that might give him a longer arch next season.
What Bobbi did was right and smart. Kara and Ward wanted to take pride to get her to say she is sorry so they put a bullet on her head and move on to their next "closure". The moment she said she was sorry they would have killed her. Maybe if Kara had a different approach Bobbi would actually feel sorry and apologized to her. You can't expect someone to apologize sincerelly to you after you kidnapped her, torture her with plans to kill her. Bobbi holdout for a chance to live. The more time she stayed there more time SHIELD would have to figure out what happened to her and go to try to safe her. She didn't need to give Kara and Ward the satisfaction of victory. Ward closure method (its his not Kara's) is messed up and he needed to be called out on it. He doesn't take any responsability for what he does. By his twisted logic he should have been dead 5 times over because for closure people who were hurt need to kill those who infilicted paint to them. Everybody on the team should have tortured and then killed him for closure. Ward is a big hyprocrite and Bobbi call him out on it. Thank god she did. Someone needed. Then on his messed up resolution he got Kara killed and what he will do next? join and organization he swore he wasn't apart of just so he can get revenge on May/Bobbi and SHIELD.
You don't know if she regrets. She is trained spy she knows the situation she was in. If she showed remorse on that moment she would have ended with a bullet to the head. Would you feel better if she admited and Kara and Ward killed her? the whole Kara/Ward/bobbi storyline was to point out they all have to make hard calls, people get hurt but kidnapping, torture, violence and murder is not the way to heal. Kara and Ward had not right to hold a gun to her head and do justice for a call she made. Kara had the right to be mad at Bobbi but what she orchestraded with Ward was not right.
If he is going full evil he will definetly get killed. This show change storylines costantly and villain don't last long. I think he will be the focus on part 1 of season 3 now after that it depends of what they want to do with the character. If they want to keep him around they will need to do 180 turn and start his redeemption arc but this will take some seriously work and a long time to do. Unfortunatly i don't even think the show will have that many seasons so i have 3 scenarios for him. 1) he gets killed like a villan 2) he sacrifice himself for a member of the team 3) he goes through the TAHITI protocol and start a new life. I don't think is possible for him to be back at SHIELD or the team ever again.
While I like the direction they took Ward, he still feels added on to scripts after episodes are written most of the time in this second half. He especially felt like he did not belong in the finale at all with what they gave him to do.
I think that would be great, again just to show how far Skye has come as a character from beig dragged onto the Bus in a Hood, to her own Bad Ass agent. You could see Ward still thinking he could take her and get his ass handed to him.
Not necessarily. we don't know anything about his family. He could be adopted or his brother could be. If just one of his parents is inhuman maybe not all the children get the inhuman gene.
It depends what are the plans the writers have for him. If is just be a villain he will get killed soon but if they want to keep him around they will definelty need to bring his family back to the mix. In this case his little brother.
Sounds like 3 possible scenarios. If he's full on evil I guess he will last as long as Whitehall. It may still not be ruled out that he turns out to be an inhuman depending on when/how the writers decide to use the "Civil war"/fish oil storyline.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's because of the double episode. People who couldn't watch the second hour, too, probably preferred to DVR the whole thing.
Remember the scene when Cap saw the Insight Carriers and Fury challenged him on the actions against Hydra. Cap spelled it out there, "Yes they did bad things that made it hard to sleep sometimes, but they did it to make the world SAFE". Shield is in the exact position throughout this season, low resources against an Emeny that doesn't care about the death they cause. Bobbi isn't the bad guy in the story, she's an agent that made a judgement call. Ward he's just a killer.
This (though watching the torture was hard), I enjoy him being a villian, I have since the Fall. What I don't enjoy is the fanbase that have been editing episodes and distorting the character simply because they can't accept him for what he is.
I don't like much the idea he is inhuman but if they want to keep him around and add something to his character that would be one way. Maybe would make him a better villain because so far he had his ass handed to him everytime he fought SHIELD.
I guess SWW fans are psychic now, and knew that the finale would "screw him over" so they tuned out...
It reminds me of when I was watching Nikita. Its ratings rose after it moved to a better timeslot, but fans of a certain ship (Alex/Owen) claimed it was because their ship had a lot of scenes in that episode. Headdesk.
If Lincoln joins Skye's "Warriors" then that might be the way they play it. Could create great tension and scenes both between Skye and Lincoln and Skye and the rest of the team (since Skye would be the one that brings Lincoln onto the team).
They think the episode Ward was in had better rantings because of his presence. Which is obviously not true. The rantings were constanly during the whole part 2 of the season.
There's a worthwile part to that sure, he did feel lik an afterthought, but like you I like the direction. Not too mention that while he didn't get much time, unless you are a shipper whose been ignoring his actual actions, they did gel together (the whole still killing people part I mean).
I actually took Wednesday off from work so I could watch the episodes live, which was a good idea because I honestly did not fall asleep until 1 AM because I was so hyped up. But not everyone has a lot of vacation time saved up that they never get to use. Otherwise I probably would not have even watch the episode/made-for-TV movie until today. But I don't have a Nielsen box so I don't matter. However I did buy the show on iTunes so I think that counts. (And I will probably buy the blue Ray just for the special features.)
I expect him to join. They supposedly have plans for him and we only hear little teases about his character and is not like there are a lot of inhumans around and he could actually help her since he was transitioner at afterlife. If he is Thomas that could actually bring some interesting aspects to the story. There still the Hellfire element. He is a part of the secret warrior and we don't know if Ward is really based on him or if they will introduced someone new. I don't like much the idea of making Ward inhumans but i only see two ways to keep his character around. Being Hellfire (inhuman) and/or bring his brother to the show (maybe Lincoln).
How were the special features? I already have it on DVD but I just got a Blu-ray player. I'm just wondering if it's worth getting the Blu-ray for season one.
I enjoyed them, don't know if there's more than on the noal DVD to be honest you might want to check that. I'm hoping they go into the VFX of the Inhumans in Season 2 think that would be cool, or give us some BTS on the one shot of Skye rescuing Lincoln, love to see both of them.
Nope. Too much had happened on both sides for Ward and the S.H.I.E.L.D. team to every trust each other again. I mean at some point in the future there may be a situation where they might be forced to work together to bring down a common enemy, but as for Ward actually becoming a part of Coulson's team again? No way
I think it depends on what you consider to be redemption for Grant Ward. My opinion is that it isn't about Coulson or anyone else from SHIELD, but about his little brother. Doing Thomas wrong, letting him become an abuse victim is what broke Grant and set him in his self-destructive path, so it's only logical that the moment he finally gets to do the right thing for him, sacrificing everything so Thomas doesn't become an abuse victim again then Grant's life would have come full circle and he'll finally be at peace with himself.
Maybe, and maybe that does allow him to be at peace with himself. But the reality is even if that happened, there's still going to be a massive gulf between the team and him that I can't see them bridging.
Yeah, that's a pretty big problem. None of Ward's apologies are sincere. It should be, "I'm sorry for what I did, I fvcked up and hurt you, I'll do whatever it takes to make it right." Instead, it's "I'm sorry about what happened, it sucks and all, but like, I was actually trying to SAVE you, and Garrett, and my family, and my life sucked, so it's actually not my fault at all, and besides, you've made mistakes too, so whatever."
Like Bobbi said, he always has an excuse or someone else to blame. He's incapable of taking responsibility for his actions. That might be the only way to explain his decision to restart Hydra in the end: he's in pain over Kara, but he doesn't know HOW to recognize that what happened is his own fault, so the only thing he can do is find a scapegoat (SHIELD).
One day, if he's still alive, it's finally going to catch up and he'll realize
That would be cool as well, or the scene in the Cabin when Skye "quaked" bobbi and the other agents. To be honest given the huge amount of VFX this season I'd just love to see behind the scenes.
I don't think Ward will ever managed to realize the fact that he's the one to blame for his choices. I just don't think he has the emoitional capacity to make such a groundbreaking realisation. When you think of how they made such a deal of Cal having a "big heart and empathy", everything we've seen from Ward shows that he doesn't. From the Fall, kidnapping Skye, FitzSimmons, killing so many agents all the way through to playing a role in Skye's change to Bobbi. He has shown zero morality or empathy in my opinion.
I don't think what they did with Ward's character had anything to with the lower rating for the finale either. I do wonder if being a two hour episode might have affected the ratings though.
I have this philosophy where if you think you can do better writer a fanfiction to see if you actually can do better or stop talking. (This completely explains why I've actually written high school musical fanfiction.) But I don't think a lot of fans realize that what they want can only exist in fanfiction because it doesn't work on screen. Name-calling and negativity helps no one.
After he shot Kara (who he thought was May) without any hesitation, no way! You can't get any redemption when you want to kill the people of the group you hate the vice versa. At this point, I actually want him gone.
I didn't mean them as a couple, but more his actions against everyone from the Fall through to the finale. For Kara, I do think that Ward was playing some other angle.
No. No for many reasons - one, he is so much more interesting when he's evil. Sane, nice Ward was super boring, and while I'm sure whatever redeemed version would be different than dull Ward from early season one, I don't want to take that chance. Seriously, he was so, so boring.
Two, he keeps trying to kill members of the team. I find that is detrimental to team morality. And health. It's just not helpful.
Three, he can't accept responsibility for what he's done. People only change when they can accept what they've done in the past, not just that it was wrong, but that it's their fault as much as any event or other person who pushed them to do what they did. If you can't get to that point, any attempt at change or redemption will never work.
Four, it feels like he'll be a good main villain for next year. Not only is he fun and crazy, like the best Marvel villains tend to be, he's got such personal connections to the team, which is always great in a villain. Makes for better motivations.
Now, I don't think it's impossible for him to be redeemed and make it a good story, or even for him to rejoin the team. This HYDRA arc could push him to some kind of pressure point that sends him back the other direction, then spend the whole next season actually coming to terms with what he's done and doing good things, then put the team into a situation where they have no choice but to work with him. The dynamics of the team having to come to terms with Ward not just a psychopath they can dismiss or shoot, but as a potential real ally and someone they need, would be an interesting arc; making Fitz, Simmons, May, Bobbi and Skye have to deal with real remorse from the man who hurt and betrayed them could bring some intense character development, because it's almost easier when he's just another villain to fight now. However, it would take a lot to pull this off without all of us wanting to put our head through a wall, and while I adore AoS, I'm not sure they'd be able to make it work. It's a tough story to sell. But Ward as the main villain - that's going to be awesome. And I'm looking forward to it.
I can't pretend I don't criticize many aspects of shows, this one included, but when my feelings towards them become THIS negative I just tune out. I don't stick around to wish cancellation upon them. Moreover, when this attitude comes from someone based solely on a specific aspect, in this case Ward, you know it's bias. "The show didn't write my favorite character the way I wanted them to? They should be cancelled."
Yeah, I think it's the 2-hour thing. People who watch something else, go out or go to bed at 10pm likely preferred to skip both hours and DVR them. It was obvious that Part 1 would end at a highly suspensful point so I can imagine many preferred to watch the entire finale in one sitting. Hopefully, they don't do any 2-hour eps next season. Either way, it has nothing to do with Ward.
It's funny because I can't withstand 99% of the fanfictions in FanFiction.Net precisely because of that, the majority of the fanfic writers don't have a good graps at pacing and always force situations without the proper buildup usually for the sake of their favorite relationship. Excellent fanfictions are very few and far between and you can usually tell by the surprisingly high number of reviews, with Harry Potter being a good example of fandom where you can find a good amount of those.
I'm personally over Ward and his family drama. Apart from Skye, his is the most developed backstory and I'm tired of his supposed man pain. Give me more FitzSimmons, Coulson, May (I miss her mom)and Huntingbird backgrounds.
His backstory is hardly developed as you imagine, we don't even know anything about his father, mother and sister other than they exist and remotely know how really terrible life in the Ward homestead was, only vague hints that they were "torture". Just as with Skye's origin they've planned to reveal this to us since season 1 and I'm fairly confident the time has come for it in season 3 so I guess you may be in for a whole season lamenting the excess not only of Grant Ward but his whole family as well. Sorry that you feel that way.
I will take the show for as long as it remains on air. I never expected it to go beyond 2 seasons because I remember when it was first announced that it wouldn't go beyond S2.
I absolutely love it and am satisfied with what they have done with it. I want the writer'sto continue telling their story not fan fiction from a small subset of the fandom. They've surprised me by not succumbing to every tv trope in the known universe just to please a few. I'm not happy with everything they have done but I'm satisfied.
Those that stopped watching in S1 stopped because there were no superheroes and those that stop watching in S3 because Ward is still an evil douche aren't worth a single sleepless night. The show is brilliant as is. It's their loss. If season 3 is going to be the last, I say bring it! I will enjoy every single moment of it knowing Ward will never be redeemed in the team's eyes. He incinerated every bridge he had in the finale (taking poor Kara with him) and if S2 was going to be the last season I'd be more than happy we got to see him for what he was, a deranged lunatic, who continues to use his abuse (horrible as it was) as an excuse to justify his atrocities, one vile act after another. Although Simmons' uncertainty would sadden me, I would be happy the show left on a high note.
So to those heralding the end of this show for no other reason than the show crashed and burned their hopes and dreams, I feel sorry for the whole lot of you, you will miss out on some of the best television has to offer.
This reminds of a quote from GoT "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." We are literally barrelling down towards Civil War, and if we are lucky enough to get more seasons after S3, there's Infinity War to contend with. There's no way this show is going to end with people happily riding off into the sunset. And I know how this whole "It's all connected" seems trifle to some people that believe the show isn't so important to Marvel's big MCU juggernaut universe but the show is connected. AoS, however small a role it may play, it's enough to keep the writers from falling completely off the rails of what Marvel wants to achieve. I mean we got the first MCU introduction to inhumans on the show. It's not about what the fans want but what Marvel is paddling, which explains the show subverting most tv tropes. AoS is essentially a cog in a very big wheel, the writers can tell their stories so long as they fit in the bigger narrative and I think Ward and his redemption aren't part of that narrative in that, it's not relevant. If the writers choose to redeem him (a travesty in my opinion) it won't matter because it's not about him but about SHIELD continuing to function with each and every new threat till we can get to Thanos, if we're lucky enough to get more seasonsthat is. Sadly for some of his fans, the writers discovered that Ward is better as a villain than a good guy and they have been pushing it since S1E17. For now, I think they are enjoying themselves too much writing him this way and won't want to make him good.
The rest of the team not being damaged is no excuse for us not knowing about and what lead them to SHIELD. I know more than enough about Grant than I do Coulson, the main character. Had it not been for the movies, I'd know even less. It's called Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D for a reason. Give us more about these agents. How can we keep seeing them week in and out and still know very little about them. This show was never about Grant and we are stuck in his vortex of suck so we can see more of his man pain. Not compelling television from a show that's about SHIELD spies.
As somebody who’s been reading fanfiction for 15 years and writing it for the last six I completely agree with you. You’re right, Harry Potter is one of those where plot usually comes first. I also discovered that sometimes fans get upset when you focus on the plot of your story instead of the ship when you point-blank say that your relationships are all secondary or when you take 35 chapters to build up a relationship and still not have the characters jump into bed together because it’s not in character. So really it’s no different than how they treat the writers and producers of the original product.
Another thing I’ve discovered is that generally the fanfiction on Archive of Our Own tend to be of a higher quality than the stuff on fanfiction.net, but that may be because a lot of the writers on AO3 appeared to be a little bit older and a bit more experience. Also, there are better filters.
Actually the hole Ward-arc is kind of pointless. The show would have worked absolutely without it and I as I doubt that he will be the head of Hydra in "Civil War" I hope there will be more about him in S3.
The way they portrayed Jiaying and the Inhumans is way more problematic as I see it. Many viewers already didn't liked them right from the start and the hole Jiaying is kind of a vampire and wanted to kill her own daughter was not helpfull and absolutely out of character with everything ever shown about the Inhumans in the comics. It just looks like a very cheap way to let SHIELD be good for exactely the same thing it was shoot down in "Winter Soldier".
Now they need to fix all that mess before "Infinity War" and the Inhuman movie. At least the show didn't copied the Joss Whedon attitude that everything not human has no rights and can be killed without concerns.
I think Bret Dalton is brilliant as Ward. That said, absolutely not. Unless he goes through the TAHITI program, he will never deserve a place on Team Coulson.
That makes me think about many effects they have on the show these days. Apart from all the shots of the Bus or the Quinjets flying, you have tons of effects shots like Skye throwing the Quinet into the ocean with her powers, Gordon teleporting like 15 times during the fight scene in the fan room, Alisha cloning herself, Lincoln's electricity, etc. It does make me a bit worried for the future of the show because it's clear it costs a lot to produce, even if the effects are not movie-quality.
Yeah, Cal and Ward have been pretty different from the start, which is why KG is kidding herself when she claims that it's some kind favoritism from the writers that Cal was redeemed and Ward wasn't. When have we EVER seen Cal cold-bloodedly pull the trigger, in the way Ward has over and over again? He was crazy. When he couldn't control his rage, and lashed out violenty at whoever was unfortunate enough to be around. That's nothing like Ward, a man who infiltrated SHIED in the service of Nazis for a decade, has killed anyone who got in the way of his mission or could blow his cover, and continues to kill or torture whenever it serves his current goal. He is perfectly rational - and ruthless.
Good point, I mean when you think about it, even just Skye "Quaking" (is that what we are calling it ;)) pistols apart must have a price tag. Even though it looks cool everytime I see it.
Agreed, from 2.04 we've seen Cal struggling with dealing with the consequences of the serum in terms of his emotional control, which is made all the worse when you see that it wasn't entirely his choice to be exposed to that serum. That's what makes it tragic for him.
For Ward as you said, he knowingly did the acts. He knew what he was doing, he told Skye he hadn't been mind controlled into doing them. And even if you were to give him everything up to Garret (which I'm SO not), once Garrat was dead he and he alone is responsible for his actions and the consequences of them.
Trying to equate the two is a logical failure in my view.
I can understand it from Kara's point of view and I think if she'd approached Bobbi it may have been different... as Bobbi said to Kara, Ward was using the situation to control Kara and was getting off on the torture too.... he's a lost cause but I honestly think he makes a great villain.
I kinda feel sorry for Kara though... she was a good SHIELD agent who had the misfortune to get caught in that safe house, tortured and brainwashed by HYDRA, getting her but kicked by May and face fried, misused by Ward and then for all the torture and brainwashing to recur in her mind when the brainwashing was finally removed, further misused by Ward and finally shot by him thinking it was May.
NOTE: Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, homophobia, acrophobia, and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.
No - he does not deserve.
ReplyDeleteNO! This would be the worst thing they could do. He betrayed the entire team, kidnapped Skye, tortured Bobbi and seems to be becoming more evil by the minute.
ReplyDeleteYeah especially now with his new self appointed job position.
ReplyDeleteNope. Never. Just no. There isn't a team member he hasn't hurt, he feels no remorse. And really Ward became an interesting character once his bad side was revealed, let him form his own Evil team of Evil and let him face off against SHIELD, that will be fun.
ReplyDeleteAt this point...no. But I wouldn't put it past the writers to spin it in a way that it will eventually happen. One thing for sure, interaction between him and the team is always fun.
ReplyDeleteI was inclined to give him a chance to redeem himself, but after the finale - NO! He doesn't deserve it!
ReplyDeleteI don't care as long they stop what they're doing with him. Ideally I'd like for him to go to his new spin-off, they're just totally ruining him on SHIELD and it's annoying me.
ReplyDeleteYou don't like that they turned him bad?
ReplyDeleteThey're not ruining him, it's just that he's so messed up that he can't see a way out towards his goal - finding a place where he can belong, feel wanted - that doesn't involve massive amounts of violence. He's in a self-destructive downwards spiral that'll either end with his death or with someone that knows him, cares for him, understands what he's been through and is also loved by Ward extending him a hand of help, of hope.
ReplyDeleteNot really no, he was by far my favourite character and suddenly we barely saw him, and when we did he had what's one of the worst storylines I've ever seen in a show imo. If he just went to a spin-off and they dropped his whole entire Kara storyline then I'd be fine, even if he was still bad. But atm I'd rather they killed him off instead of what they're doing.
ReplyDeleteThey are ruining him imo, you might like it but I hate it.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, no. Absolutely no. For this to ever be an option he needs to earn it, REALLY earn it. He needs to truly feel remorse about what he did and start acting selflessly before he can remotely get a shot at it.
ReplyDeleteNo way in hell!
ReplyDeleteAnd thank good they didn't redeem him either, he's too far gone.
OH HELL NO!
ReplyDeleteIt most certainly pained me to see him being so brutal and twisted in the finale. I struggled all season to understand why he was still acting psychotically like in his John Garrett days and I think I finally got a grasp at it.
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, I think season 3A will be the final stand of Ward's villainness. They can't keep this going for too long or the perceived effectiveness of SHIELD to fight threats diminishes, so I expect the hand in question will be offered to him by the winter finale, likely by his brother Thomas. The show has, after all, created a big mystery surrounding the life of the Ward family and I think they fully intend to explore this someday, and they can't do it with Grant Ward dead.
I do hope whatever they have planned for him starts to unfold soon, they've dragged it out for far too long imo. I may not still be watching the show by then though, AOS has been at the bottom of my shows list for a while now, I've been on the verge of dropping it since S2 started.
ReplyDeleteNot at all. He was one of the reasons the season one started off so slow. Having him as a villain has given him so much more purpose.
ReplyDeleteNo. No. No. Not happening. It can't happen. If it happens, I quit. I would be so dissapointed in the writers if they do it.
ReplyDeleteOr his sister. Somehow everyone forgets that there is also a sister.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I actually do understand where Ward is coming from. He just doesn't really understand how messed up he truly is, and is totally unable to reconcile the fact that he is responsible for a lot of his choices, no matter what Garrett did to him. I guess his brother was spot on when he said that Ward likes to see himself as the hero.
I don't quite believe the sister would be a factor because she's a non-entity so far. We only know she exists, while Thomas has been hinted throughout the series.
ReplyDeleteNOPE.
ReplyDeleteALL the comments say no, who voted yes then?!
ReplyDeleteI think they are too afraid of us saying no to show their faces lol
ReplyDeleteLOL!
ReplyDeleteWe don't bite hahahahaha (I thunk lol)
ReplyDeleteBut really they should speak. I'm curious why they think he deserves redemption. And it better NOT be about the well :\
Before I start this post, let me just state that I voted NO, the Grant Ward I saw in the finale does not deserve a place back in SHIELD..
ReplyDeleteThat said, why wouldn't his life's traumas be a good reason he deserves redemption? He's most certainly not ready for it, yes, but if Cal got one why can't he eventually? Cal was brutal, murderous, twisted the whole of season 2 and by the end of it we got to see a side of him that allowed us to accept the bittersweet closure to his arc, getting another shot at a happy life. This may very well be what they have in store for Ward.
Possible...all the talk about how he ended up with the Inhumas was very ominous. Thing is, if he is Inhuman, Ward is too. I am not sure if I am prepared for that.
ReplyDeleteYes of course his life's traumas are a good reason for him to be redeemed. However, they are not a reason for him to be a cold blooded murderer and a traitor. How long can his actions be credited to his trauma? Like you said Cal was a monster but he really did want to change. Ward doesn't. Even his apology and his remorse didn't feel (or look) genuine. He is not sorry for what he did and what he will do. Then why should we forgive him?
ReplyDeleteNO WAY!!!!
ReplyDeleteNo, I like Ward much better evil.
ReplyDeleteHow do I put it... Hell no ! No way, no freaking way.
ReplyDeleteI agree that, at this point, we shouldn't. He's not only absolutely not regretting his actions but he's also upping the ante now. I'm willing to look at the current situation with a glass half full, though: Kara's death unambiguously tore down the wall he erected around his emotional core, he's no longer an unreadable enigma, he's totally acting on emotion now. Recreating a HYDRA for himself to destroy SHIELD is all that he's left now and we all know Coulson will crush it with ease, perhaps when that time comes he'll be emotionally ready to accept a helpful hand from someone who loves him, cares for him and believes he can be a better person, who in my mind was always meant to be his brother Thomas.
ReplyDeleteAs long as they fix the finale that doesn't make any sense - I've seen at least three anti-Warders say they're now on his side because the writing was so shitty - then yes. But right now? I love him so no.
ReplyDeleteEvery single one of them was screwed over and out of character to make the ~plot twists~ work and I'm not about to get in that rant for like the fourth time but let's just say this is not the show nor the characters I fell in love with in season one. Thanks for ruining it for the rest of us who actually liked the show for what it was before, critics and people who hated the show.
There's really no way to fix this mess but I'll take the "it was all a dream" trope I hate or body snatchers or Jemma going back in time to fix this disaster before anything bad can happen (thanks, alien blob).
I am still so upset right now.
no freaking way
ReplyDeleteI really wish May would have killed him like she said she would, so this debate could have been put to rest.
ReplyDeleteIf pigs can fly... in the real world, not superhero world.
ReplyDeleteNope No Way WHAT IN ACTUAL FUCK.....!
ReplyDeleteWhich part didn't make sense, out of curiosity? I thought the finale was fantastic.
ReplyDeleteEh, I think Ward does want to be a good guy, he just has no idea how to be one. But he needs to understand that he is not the way he sees himself to have a shot on redemption.
ReplyDeleteI think it's more akin to Ward wanting to belong somewhere and feel wanted by those around him, but he keeps pushing people with his violent and manipulative antics.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know. It was reeeeeeeally fun to have the team back together (and it brought quite a different side in Simmons), but he seems to be going the Hydra route... I don't know, maybe he'll see Skye's in some sort of danger and he comes to the rescue (only to be shaken to oblivion now that Skye can wield more than a gun). Ultimately I find it highly improbable, what with making EVERYBODY in Coulson's team hate him... Maybe next season they try to weaponize the T.A.H.I.T.I. tech (making another Dollhouse homage) and they end up forgetting the last year only for an episode (a la "Tabula Rasa" or "Spin the Bottle") to be able to reunite the team. Yeah, the possibilities are endless.
ReplyDeleteThere are 2 separate questions here, and that's important.
ReplyDelete1. Can Ward be redeemed?
2. If the answer to the first question is yes, can he be back on Coulson's team someday?
I'm not going to address the first question at length. It's not what the poll is about, and frankly, I don't have a clear answer. My "gut" response is that he's irredeemable, but then, it's possible Black Widow did things no less heinous than Ward before she reformed (and whether or not she was literally brainwashed in the Red Room remains in contention, so she may not have anymore of an excuse in that regard than he does). I *will* say that so far, he's done zero to indicate that he's seeking redemption and in fact keeps getting worse... but again, we don't know how many bad things BW did before her heel-face turn, so I digress.
As for the second question, however... the answer isn't a no, it's a HELL NO. Nothing and no one will ever convince me that the people who were personally betrayed (all of them), tortured (Bobbi) and nearly killed (Fitz, Simmons, Hunter and May) by Ward can believably accept him as one of their own again. It's just not happening. They are human beings, not angels. Even if they WERE capable of forgiving him considering his abusive past, and that's a very big "if" (some people can't even forgive the childhood bully who tormented them, for example), trust is a separate thing entirely. They can't and won't trust him again, ever. A plot development like that would be preposterous and make AoS completely jump the shark for the sake of appeasing a relatively small portion of the fans, my opinion about whom I'd better keep to myself as to not be rude.
After what he did to Bobbi? Not a single solitary chance in hell. I will drop the show itself if they go that route.
ReplyDeleteLOL at me getting into this again but whatever. It feels like we somehow accidentally stumbled into the darkest timeline.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, three WOC died in one episode - and I didn't even like Jiaying but it's not fair that she got screwed over so Cal - a comic supervillain (and white man) could get his redemption. That's on top of Trip, Gonzales, and Bakshi dying in previous episodes.
Skye spent her whole life looking for her family and oops, they're both monsters.
Jemma's spent the whole season dealing with a trauma that was never addressed and then got sucked into the alien blob. And Fitz isn't that reckless in the first place (and also, why didn't it eat him?) so that doesn't work.
Poor Coulson lost his hand for no reason and May bounced right after it happened (and was cold to Skye when she was sorry for her actions) to be with her engaged ex-husband. Um, that's not the Melinda May I know.
Bobbi wasn't even sorry about what she did to Kara? I don't buy it. I love her and that was so out of character. Plus, they had her get shot solely so Lance would forgive her!
Not to mention they spent all season victim blaming both Ward and Kara for the abuse and brainwashing. May was so out of character last week blaming Kara for what happened to her when it wasn't her fault. Coulson handed Ward over to his abuser, which is so screwed up I'm still pissed about it. They mocked Grant's abuse to his face. Um, what the hell?
Plus, the writers themselves had him say it three times so Grant "I was never loyal to Hydra only loyal to Garrett" Ward would never lead Hydra WHEN THEY TORTURED KARA IN THE FIRST PLACE. And I'm fuming because they retconned Grant killing Buddy. There's no possible way he killed the dog - it was all Garrett.
They never once brought up Garrett's kidnapping and and abuse of Grant and I thought it was because he hadn't realized it yet but nope, the show chose not to acknowledge it. Oh, and he didn't get therapy he clearly needed either.
Also, the fact that Kara and Grant's relationship - which none of us even wanted in the first place because we were hoping to see two abuse victims heal from what happened to them and overcome it - developed off-screen in a few episodes. How much time passed since 2.10? Like at least a month? I don't buy they felt that strongly about each other and it was a weird and gross co-dependent relationship. And since when did Grant want to kill May? That came out of nowhere.
As much as people want to deny it, they dangled the redemption arc in front of Ward fans in 2.18 and 2.19 then ripped the rug out from underneath us until we had no hope left (plus mocked a fanbase on screen. Who does that to their fans?) and now we're pissed.
When there are multiple people who hate Ward saying the twist at the end with him didn't make sense and they're now standing with him because of it? Then there's a problem.
There's probably a lot more that I'm forgetting but you get the gist. LOL, sorry for the rant.
It may just be me, but I feel that Cal was literally driven crazy by the things he'd gone through like having to literally sew his wife back together from pieces. When he ripped the men who came to him for treatment to shreds in "A Hen in the Wolf House", for example, that certainly didn't seem cold-blooded and rational. He became consumed by rage and lashed out. And most of the time, his behavior seemed pretty manic. While Ward clearly has some serious mental issues, his general demeanor - and the bad things he does - strike me as rational, a method to the madness, even if his motivations and general outlook on life aren't.
ReplyDeleteSo that's a big difference to me in how redeemable one is versus the other, despite the fact that I'm not ruling out a Ward redemption one-hundred percent.
I love Ward but it is impossible that one day back in the team of Coulson.
ReplyDeleteAlso, read this post because it makes a lot of good points http://pieces-solving-a-puzzle.tumblr.com/post/118952875931/about-the-finale
ReplyDeleteDalton himself was encouraging a lot of that stand with ward bullshit so it was funny to see the reference to the show glad he's stopped now after ward going full on villain but I do understand he has a family and aos is his job but ward is too far gone for me to ever support him
ReplyDeleteThey've betrayed one another too much for Grant to be back on the team, but he could possibly end up an occasional ally. Oh, what am I saying? A show where Bobbi Morse was proud of betraying Kara to HYDRA (she ought to get a plaque commissioned for her wall for that, the way she talked about it. Sounded like her proudest moment), everybody tries to shoot Grant Ward in the back every time he tries to be helpful, they took Jiaying from a person with a principled stand against organizations like SHIELD (a potential Magneto to Skye's Xavier) and went "LOL no, she's really an evil vampire" for the sake of wrapping up her storyline, and Melinda May, who in Bahrain *knew* what it meant to deal with someone mind-controlled, showed no empathy for a brainwashed Kara Palamas----this show has the deep understanding of moral complexity of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
ReplyDeleteThe writers are on your side. Congratulations.......but are the viewers? Good luck on a Season 4
ReplyDeleteWell, the "Method to the Madness" part is certainly true and we have John Garrett to thanks for that, but I think that part of his personality may have been tore down with Kara's death. He seems to be acting much more on emotion in that last scene where he starts a new Hydra, like he lost everything that he thought to be good in his life and revenge is all that he has left. I can totally see Ward being completely broken when Coulson and SHIELD inevitably destroy his Fail-Hydra with ease next season.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, I can't help but feel there's something seriously off with the life in the Ward family. I mean, how can two parents fail so abysmally that one brother manipulated the other to kill the third one, the second escaped military academy to burn down the family house and the third presumably had to fake his death to have a shot at a normal life, assuming my Lincoln/Thomas theory is true? That's way too much warped up to have a soap opera explanation in a spy show.
I love black widow but they differentiated ward and her the minute her threw fitzsimmons off that plame
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I don't doubt for a second Natasha has been undercover and tortured and killed the people she was then surrounded with for her goals. The difference is that we've a) never seen that happen and b) never cared about those people she betrayed.
Ward hurt the people we loved and didn't just betray the group but the viewers in a way as well. That said I do like his character, he's interesting. I would have prefered if he stayed on his own though. No more Hydra please.
Well, the "Trust" part certainly is forever shattered, they'd always be keeping their guard up around him in some level no matter what for fear he'd betray them again. The betrayal stain, however, could be lessened with selfless sacrifice, and in Ward's case it'd have to be A LOT OF selfless sacrifice, because really, he reached a whole new level of malevolence with that torture scene and that sadistic plan to kill the first person who entered Bobbi's room.
ReplyDeleteReally, you got Bobbi was proud from that scene? If Kara had talked to her at the base she would have gotten a completely different response. Bobbi's attitude was because she was kidnapped and tortured. She made a call not knowing that Kara was at the safe house, it was the least worse option. But of course WArd Shippers think everyone but him are the bad guys, al his actions are just misinterrpeted.
ReplyDeleteI liked a lot of your points, but I would like to point out that Bobbi was getting tortured when she basically said that she wasn't sorry for what she did. If someone had a gun pointed at me and was going to kill me the second they heard an apology, I wouldn't be falling over myself to make it right.
ReplyDeleteI loved your point about Cal. That somewhat left a bad taste in my mouth.
As for Jemma and Fitz, the alien item thing was changing, then reforming shape. I bet if Fitz had been in the room, then he would have gotten "eaten" too. But I think you are right that he wouldn't have been that careless in the first place.
I think that Kara and Grant's relationship was strong for two reasons. One, I honestly think Grant was using her (knowingly or unknowingly). Two, they had both been taken advantage of. When that happens, you tend to be needy and cling to people in unhealthy ways.
Honestly, I could go either way in Ward being redeemed and joining the team. But at some point, even though he had a bad past, he is responsible for the choices he makes. If he knows he is screwed up, maybe he should take steps to get counselling through a therapist and not by murdering his family.
Ward as a bad guy is vastly more interesting and involving than Ward the Agent.
ReplyDeletePlease don't generalize, Ward is the character I'm most intrigued to watch and I don't believe his actions were misinterpreted there. :)
ReplyDeleteI didn't hear any kind of regret from Bobbi Morse for what happened to Agent 33. I'm not asking for a groveling apology. Just a little sincere regret. Bobbi regretted nothing.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree, and selfless sacrifice would certainly go a long way towards the forgiveness that he might be able to receive one day. While we both rule out trust completely, I don't think forgiveness from Coulson's team is utterly impossible, but it would take very good writing to pull it off. And it certainly can't be any time soon.
ReplyDeleteWard can probably be redeemed in the long run if the writers decide that he at some point regret any of his actions. However, as things stand now there are slim chances for him to be back in the team, especially given that all of the original team has tried to kill him (except Coulson). If Ward continues his psycho behaviour, that will also rule out any redemption arch. Personally, I think that a redemption arch (not the same as him being back on the team) would be more interesting since being a villain/psycho is pretty onedimensional in the long run.
ReplyDeleteYou have to remember - just because we didn't see BW's actions on screen, doesn't make them any less real. To be fair (and I say this as someone who's about as far from a "Stand With Ward" fan as possible), we as viewers have an emotional response to all the atrocities Ward has committed: we've seen it all go down, and many of the people he's hurt are beloved characters of ours. So obviously, we feel a lot more strongly about his actions than BW's - her victims are nameless, faceless people to us, and we only know her as a "good guy".
ReplyDeleteThat being said, if it's ever revealed that BW betrayed SHIELD before she reformed, her presence on the Avengers roster would be just as ridiculous as the prospect of Ward being back on Coulson's team (well, maybe not completely because the Avengers still wouldn't be the people she personally crossed, but still).
With a Gun to her head by a killer? If she had "admitted her guilt" his closure would have been a bullet in the head and Bobbi knew that, and so do we. Bobbi made it clear, she didn't know Kara was in the safehouse whe she gave it up, how could she? If at the Playground Kara had confronted Bobbi in front of Coulson/May etc I bet you her response would have been completely different. Bobbi isn't the bad guy of the scene or the series, she may make calls for "the greater good" that ends up with bad results (other Shields assualt, Skye for example) but that's an agent making hard calls with all the information they have available (just like May's call in Barhain). Ward doest have any justification for his actions.
ReplyDeleteAt this point you are talking at least a season if not more trying to redeem himself, and even then, there's no way the team would trust him. None of the original's trust him, can't see Bobbi/Hunter/Mack doing anything other than killing him on sight after what he did to Bobbi.
ReplyDeleteI don't even think he realized how screwed up he was and the fact that the show villainized and blamed two abuse victims for their actions leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
ReplyDeleteThis post is spot on so I recommend reading it http://pieces-solving-a-puzzle.tumblr.com/post/118952875931/about-the-finale
Then why not say, "What's the point if you are going to kill me? It's not like this was my proudest moment, but what am I supposed to say with a gun to my head?" Not this "This was the best decision EVER!" business
ReplyDeleteI agree, IF redemption is possible, it will take a long time. For example, it took Spike on Buffy at least 3 seasons in order to be fully redeemed.
ReplyDeleteAt this point AOS may not get a season past 3, with the finale ratings
ReplyDeleteOk, that was too broad a comment, I do get that there are Ward fans and shippers that can accept the character for what we've seen, and any points/conversations we've had has always been logical. As I've said before, I do like him for what he is (though I could have done without seeing the torture scene), but I think in some part the writers had to go that far because of elements of the fanbase that were willing to creatively edit his actions to make a character that didn't exist (ie, well they didn't show us him burning his family so that didn't happen).
ReplyDeleteI like Ward as the bad guy that he is, and I think it's kind of cool to watch the Season 1 episodes when he's riding Skye for mistakes and then you think, she's an Agent, the directors protege, wih her own team standing up etc, and he was just a "Bad Seed".
You got your way. But instead of people who watch the show not supporting Grant Ward anymore, a lot of people will just stop watching the show. It's appeal will just get more selective, to reference This Is Spinal Tap.
ReplyDeleteThis show doesn't have good writing.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't think either the show or Bobbi were trying to justify what she did. However, as you say, she knew she wouldn't get out of there alive if she gave Kara and Ward what they wanted, a full-on admission of responsibility and an apology, so she had to stall. Also, I honestly can't judge her for not wanting to give a psychopath like Ward the satisfaction of giving in completely and doing what he wanted. It's possible Bobbi would've shown more regret if Kara was her only captor, but with Ward there, she was just too disgusted to play right into their hands with an apology.
ReplyDeleteI *do* think it would be nice if the show brought this up again next season, and Bobbi admitted to Hunter or someone else that she regrets what she did and the consequences to Kara. That way, we'll know that her attitude in the finale had more to do with the situation than her actual feelings about what she did.
Because its her nature to be defiant, something we've seen from Bobbi since she was introduced... She knew the odds were she was dead and wasn't going to give Ward anything. But to fit your nartive, like always it gets twisted into the other person is the bad guy, Ward just needs to explain his motive better.
ReplyDeleteAnd if that happens I will never for give the nonsense of the Ward shippers for killing an amazing and interesting show.
ReplyDeleteWow, you gonna call yourselves Stand With Bobbi now?
ReplyDeleteI agree. A possible redemption arch will take a long time to tell with clever writing. I think the writers will make him extremely evil at the start of Season 3 and then bring in Thomas as a complicating factor. If Ward stays über-evil throughout the season he will probably be killed off at the end os S3.
ReplyDeletetoo much history for him to be back on the team, like him as a bad boy :)
ReplyDeletehell no specially after what he did to bobbi and not even counting what happen in season 1
ReplyDeleteWhy, has she murdered her way through an agency?
ReplyDeleteFor the most part, I disagree. In terms of certain plot points (like Jiaying suddenly being an uber-villain and Kara being Ward's new motivation in life), however, that assessment is on the money.
ReplyDeleteHYDRA count as that agency she betrayed and murdered her way through? Morality doesn't depend on the color hat you wear.
ReplyDeleteSure, and as I said I have no doubt that if Kara had come to her on base there would have been a completely different response, and like you I do hope the topic gets revisited, perhaps whle she's healing from her wounds. But at that moment with what she knew Ward was capable of...
ReplyDeleteRemember Bobbi is a trained interogetor herself (as seen with Bakshi), she knew what the most likely outcomes were.
AsI've said, if just because you can't accept the reality of a character that we've seen for over a season then the problem is yours.
ReplyDeleteNo, because the point isn't that what Bobbi to Kara was right, it's that not completely rolling over for her captors and torturers is more than understandable.
ReplyDeleteThere's only so far you can take moral relativism. Hydra and SHIELD are two very different agencies, despite SHIELD's many faults.
ReplyDeleteOh so now to justify Ward, you want Shield to be the bad guys for taking action against Hydra. I'm impressed/horrified at the lengths some of the Ward fanbase will go to, to be honest.
ReplyDeleteWhat's next Cap was a bad guy for taking down the Insight Carriers? Fury for killing Pierce?
everything at 9p.m. even american idol finale was way down plus i heard some news came on in some areas at 9p.m. instead of shield
ReplyDeleteActually it does, you Ward shippers thought it was "best writing ever" when they manipulated the sitation to bring the team back together (as evidenced by the posts you and others made), everyone else thought it was forced and balant. Then when they switched it up and didn't go for the lazy option they proved that they are good writers.
ReplyDeleteI know, this is just taking the P!SS to be honest.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that actions taken by the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers of SHIELD are treated very differently than similar actions taken by The Bad Guys (TM)
ReplyDeleteI agree. But there is a lot of excusing actions of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers while using similar actions taken by the Designated Black Hat as the reason He Is Totally Evil.
ReplyDeleteYour right Shield shouldn't take any steps to stop the people bent on World domination and Genocide. Ward in kiling random people he meets is far more morally sound...
ReplyDeleteI had a lot of hope for Ward for a long time. That "We got the old team back" moment was great and nostalgic, and probably the last time we will see the original team together. After the finale, I just need to accept he is bad and will stay bad. There is a .0000001 percent chance though that he is assembling that ex hyrdra team to help shield.. lol
ReplyDeleteIf you can't figure out the difference between a Spy agency meat to protect the world infiltatring and disrupting a evil organisation and a guy who has btrayed said agency and killed plenty of innocents, then mybe it's your issue.
ReplyDeleteIn the new BSG, they explored those shades of gray when people in the Fleet tortured Cylons for information and made other morally gray calls. There was that awareness of the Abyss staring back. None of this awareness touches the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers of SHIELD
ReplyDeleteSo morality does depend on the hat you wear. Good to know
ReplyDeleteWard shippers online are just a few individuals. Take it up with the people not ranting online tuning out as it became clear where the show was going.
ReplyDeleteNOPE! He killed his girlfriend thinking he was killing May, so he's done with the team. Also, I not only hope, but I think he will die in the S3 mid-season finale.
ReplyDeleteShe had to choose between giving Hydra a safe house she had no idea was occupied or blowing her cover and causing death of twelve agents... I'm sure she regretted what happened to Kara but she had to weigh an unknown variable against a known twelve agents - I don't think she regrets making the decision (which is different to regretting what happened to Kara) and would make same decision again.
ReplyDeleteBut she wasn't going to give them the satisfaction (esp. Ward) and also I think she was trying to provoke them into making her death quick and ending the torture, or goading them into making a mistake.
Okay, now you're just ignoring the actual content of the response you got. sparky42 wasn't differentiating between SHIELD and Hydra based on the "hats they wear" but their actions. One is out to protect the world, even if it deploys questionable methods to that end; the other is out to enslave it and remake it in its Nazi image
ReplyDeleteThe show has been stable in the ratings (1.5-1.6, with ONE instance of 1.4) during the entire second half of Season 2. The lower rating for the season finale, 1.3, is puzzling, but clearly has nothing to do with the direction the show took regarding Ward - or anything else in the finale - as viewers obviously don't know what's going to happen in an episode before they watch it.
ReplyDeleteBut nobody bats an eye about the questionable actions. Even the supposed good guys. Sometimes the good guys have to use the bad guys' methods. They don't lose a night of sleep over it.
ReplyDeleteKnowing the writing on this show, they probably all went out for pizza and a laugh after Bobbi was better
ReplyDeleteExactly! I'm glad they didn't redeem him and instead made him go full on to the dark side. I much rather have him like he is now, and then have him die at some point on S3.
ReplyDelete+ He shot his girlfriend like 4 times thinking it was May. MAY!!! He was going to kill her and didn't even blink when he shot the girl.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I just want to add, that for a character to want redemption, we actually need to see that he wants forgiveness for the things he's done. Ward has never said "I'm sorry I did this to you, I hurt you, and that hurts me." Instead he said "I'm sorry you guys don't like me like you use to, I miss what ya'll did for me, but I'm not sorry for what I did because other people made meeeeeeeeeee, whaaaaaaaaaaa."
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't want redemption, he wants closure, and it seems to me that the way he wants to get that closure is by murdering everyone who "wronged" him. He's not atoning, he's delving deeper, and that's why he should NEVER be part of Coulson's team again.
I think he's made pretty clear that he doesnt want to be. Getting in just to get Bobbi and now looking for a vendetta with May. He doesnt desrve redemption. It's too late now.
ReplyDeleteThis, he didn't hesitate when he saw "May" he went straight for the kill (almost matching the gut shots Quinn hit Skye with).
ReplyDeleteAs I've said, when the writers gave you and the other shippers Ward back on the bus (through significant manipulation) you thought they were the best writers ever. When they just continued a character arc that had started in Season 1, they are "worst writers ever".
ReplyDeleteExactly, which is why I had no sympathy for him whatsoever when he realised he had killed Kara.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good summing up of the Ward we've seen alright. Even his comments to Fitz on the Quinn Jet were needless cruel and he knew it. He is a functioning Physcopath I think. From what we've seen I don't think he actually has empathy to oters and the consequences of his actions.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not!
ReplyDeleteIt is an in-house production that ABC/Disney is making money off of internationally and through things like Netflix and iTunes. Season four is guaranteed just for syndication. They may even tried to push 100 episodes so it meets up with Avengers 3A, which is honestly where I think they want to end the show anyway. Just keep in mind these are the same people who renewed American Crime which proves that ABC cares about something other than live ratings for their in-house productions.
ReplyDeleteAgents of Shield villains don't last long, they always die and everytime Ward tried to fight the "team" he got his ass handed to him. Him as a villian won't last long. Like you said, mid season finale would be the longst he will survive. The question is who from the team will kill him? at this point they are all racing to see who will get to do it.
ReplyDeleteI got to think Skye, it would be a fairly good bookend for the Hacker/Consultant/rookie of Season 1, who grew into an agent in Season 2, to a team leader in Season 3 to handle the bad seed that letured her so much.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the Nielsen rating system is just such a small sample populationof about 50,000 people representing 300 million people. If one of those Ward shippers has a rating box they can significantly and disproportionately impact the system.
ReplyDeleteI blame Nelson boxes on college campuses or maybe some people heard about the torture scenes and decided not to watch live.
ReplyDeleteThe moment he dropped Fitzsimmons out of the plane was also the moment he throw away his chance to get back to the team. At that point what he did terrible things, he played the team and killed Hand and others but there was still a chance because people like Fitz still believe him. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he had the chance to stop what Garret was doing and start redeeming himself. He didn't and since then he only did more terrible things. It was almost impossible before the finale but after what he did to Bobbi and tried to do with May and Hunter, i have no doubt he won't ever be with the team again.
ReplyDeleteYeah, she would be a great choice. I expect her to have at least some good fight scene with him since May and Bobbi already had that.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I think the Ward fans who liked him as a redeemable character were a very vocal minority. I have the feeling the main audience was simply enjoying how creepy the character is now. Easily one of the best villains in the MCU.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he will last as a villain because he is a weak villain. He was made a villain with the purpose of getting closure for a death he caused. He is totally messed up. He is going after people at SHIELD and is pretty clear whoever tries that end up getting toasted relatively fast. The best case scenario he wil have a clarity moment and will be "redeemed" by being killed protecting someone from the team. Right now this scenario is hard to pictured because he inflicted so much pain to pretty much all the members of the team so even if he sacrifices himself for one he still hurts so many other that is hard to forget.
ReplyDeleteHis fans are taking pride to be responsible about the finale ratings and using that to harras the writers and producers of the show on social media. They think they are the center of the universe.. It's funny because right until the finale they were going crazy with theories about what would happen and saying how excited they were. I don't know what's up with the aos ratings but i know it's not because of them.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he's not a proper Hydra villain i.e. he's goal is not to end the world but rather he only has personal motives for his villany, That can't end well for him. On the other hand, the writers has not explored his family to the full, for example brother Thomas, so that might give him a longer arch next season.
ReplyDeleteWhat Bobbi did was right and smart. Kara and Ward wanted to take pride to get her to say she is sorry so they put a bullet on her head and move on to their next "closure". The moment she said she was sorry they would have killed her. Maybe if Kara had a different approach Bobbi would actually feel sorry and apologized to her. You can't expect someone to apologize sincerelly to you after you kidnapped her, torture her with plans to kill her. Bobbi holdout for a chance to live. The more time she stayed there more time SHIELD would have to figure out what happened to her and go to try to safe her. She didn't need to give Kara and Ward the satisfaction of victory. Ward closure method (its his not Kara's) is messed up and he needed to be called out on it. He doesn't take any responsability for what he does. By his twisted logic he should have been dead 5 times over because for closure people who were hurt need to kill those who infilicted paint to them. Everybody on the team should have tortured and then killed him for closure. Ward is a big hyprocrite and Bobbi call him out on it. Thank god she did. Someone needed. Then on his messed up resolution he got Kara killed and what he will do next? join and organization he swore he wasn't apart of just so he can get revenge on May/Bobbi and SHIELD.
ReplyDeleteNah, I want better writing for him there. This whole second half felt like the show could have gone on without him.
ReplyDeleteYou don't know if she regrets. She is trained spy she knows the situation she was in. If she showed remorse on that moment she would have ended with a bullet to the head. Would you feel better if she admited and Kara and Ward killed her? the whole Kara/Ward/bobbi storyline was to point out they all have to make hard calls, people get hurt but kidnapping, torture, violence and murder is not the way to heal. Kara and Ward had not right to hold a gun to her head and do justice for a call she made. Kara had the right to be mad at Bobbi but what she orchestraded with Ward was not right.
ReplyDeleteIf he is going full evil he will definetly get killed. This show change storylines costantly and villain don't last long. I think he will be the focus on part 1 of season 3 now after that it depends of what they want to do with the character. If they want to keep him around they will need to do 180 turn and start his redeemption arc but this will take some seriously work and a long time to do. Unfortunatly i don't even think the show will have that many seasons so i have 3 scenarios for him. 1) he gets killed like a villan 2) he sacrifice himself for a member of the team 3) he goes through the TAHITI protocol and start a new life. I don't think is possible for him to be back at SHIELD or the team ever again.
ReplyDeleteWhile I like the direction they took Ward, he still feels added on to scripts after episodes are written most of the time in this second half. He especially felt like he did not belong in the finale at all with what they gave him to do.
ReplyDeleteI think that would be great, again just to show how far Skye has come as a character from beig dragged onto the Bus in a Hood, to her own Bad Ass agent. You could see Ward still thinking he could take her and get his ass handed to him.
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily. we don't know anything about his family. He could be adopted or his brother could be. If just one of his parents is inhuman maybe not all the children get the inhuman gene.
ReplyDeleteIt depends what are the plans the writers have for him. If is just be a villain he will get killed soon but if they want to keep him around they will definelty need to bring his family back to the mix. In this case his little brother.
ReplyDeleteSounds like 3 possible scenarios. If he's full on evil I guess he will last as long as Whitehall. It may still not be ruled out that he turns out to be an inhuman depending on when/how the writers decide to use the "Civil war"/fish oil storyline.
ReplyDeleteIf I had to guess, I'd say it's because of the double episode. People who couldn't watch the second hour, too, probably preferred to DVR the whole thing.
ReplyDeleteRemember the scene when Cap saw the Insight Carriers and Fury challenged him on the actions against Hydra. Cap spelled it out there, "Yes they did bad things that made it hard to sleep sometimes, but they did it to make the world SAFE". Shield is in the exact position throughout this season, low resources against an Emeny that doesn't care about the death they cause. Bobbi isn't the bad guy in the story, she's an agent that made a judgement call. Ward he's just a killer.
ReplyDeleteThis (though watching the torture was hard), I enjoy him being a villian, I have since the Fall. What I don't enjoy is the fanbase that have been editing episodes and distorting the character simply because they can't accept him for what he is.
ReplyDeleteI don't like much the idea he is inhuman but if they want to keep him around and add something to his character that would be one way. Maybe would make him a better villain because so far he had his ass handed to him everytime he fought SHIELD.
ReplyDeleteI guess SWW fans are psychic now, and knew that the finale would "screw him over" so they tuned out...
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of when I was watching Nikita. Its ratings rose after it moved to a better timeslot, but fans of a certain ship (Alex/Owen) claimed it was because their ship had a lot of scenes in that episode. Headdesk.
If Lincoln joins Skye's "Warriors" then that might be the way they play it. Could create great tension and scenes both between Skye and Lincoln and Skye and the rest of the team (since Skye would be the one that brings Lincoln onto the team).
ReplyDeleteThey think the episode Ward was in had better rantings because of his presence. Which is obviously not true. The rantings were constanly during the whole part 2 of the season.
ReplyDeleteThere's a worthwile part to that sure, he did feel lik an afterthought, but like you I like the direction. Not too mention that while he didn't get much time, unless you are a shipper whose been ignoring his actual actions, they did gel together (the whole still killing people part I mean).
ReplyDeleteI couldn't possibly be more against this idea. NO, absolutely NO.
ReplyDeleteI actually took Wednesday off from work so I could watch the episodes live, which was a good idea because I honestly did not fall asleep until 1 AM because I was so hyped up. But not everyone has a lot of vacation time saved up that they never get to use. Otherwise I probably would not have even watch the episode/made-for-TV movie until today.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't have a Nielsen box so I don't matter. However I did buy the show on iTunes so I think that counts. (And I will probably buy the blue Ray just for the special features.)
I expect him to join. They supposedly have plans for him and we only hear little teases about his character and is not like there are a lot of inhumans around and he could actually help her since he was transitioner at afterlife. If he is Thomas that could actually bring some interesting aspects to the story. There still the Hellfire element. He is a part of the secret warrior and we don't know if Ward is really based on him or if they will introduced someone new. I don't like much the idea of making Ward inhumans but i only see two ways to keep his character around. Being Hellfire (inhuman) and/or bring his brother to the show (maybe Lincoln).
ReplyDeleteOh I'm certainly getting the Blue Ray, got Season 1 already.
ReplyDeleteHow were the special features? I already have it on DVD but I just got a Blu-ray player. I'm just wondering if it's worth getting the Blu-ray for season one.
ReplyDeleteThat fact that he's now at least a head of Hydra...no. He's not coming back. I want May to kill him!
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed them, don't know if there's more than on the noal DVD to be honest you might want to check that. I'm hoping they go into the VFX of the Inhumans in Season 2 think that would be cool, or give us some BTS on the one shot of Skye rescuing Lincoln, love to see both of them.
ReplyDeleteNo. Just no.
ReplyDeleteAfter everythig he has done there is no way he can be part of the team again. He is too far gone
Oh heck no!!!
ReplyDeleteNope. Too much had happened on both sides for Ward and the S.H.I.E.L.D. team to every trust each other again. I mean at some point in the future there may be a situation where they might be forced to work together to bring down a common enemy, but as for Ward actually becoming a part of Coulson's team again? No way
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on what you consider to be redemption for Grant Ward. My opinion is that it isn't about Coulson or anyone else from SHIELD, but about his little brother. Doing Thomas wrong, letting him become an abuse victim is what broke Grant and set him in his self-destructive path, so it's only logical that the moment he finally gets to do the right thing for him, sacrificing everything so Thomas doesn't become an abuse victim again then Grant's life would have come full circle and he'll finally be at peace with himself.
ReplyDeleteHell no. I can't believe the guy is alive still.
ReplyDeleteMaybe, and maybe that does allow him to be at peace with himself. But the reality is even if that happened, there's still going to be a massive gulf between the team and him that I can't see them bridging.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but at least he'd stop actively being a threat to them, that's already something don't you think?
ReplyDeleteyou should change No to Hell no, i think that would be more appropriate
ReplyDeleteFor most of us, yeah that's pretty close.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's a pretty big problem. None of Ward's apologies are sincere. It should be, "I'm sorry for what I did, I fvcked up and hurt you, I'll do whatever it takes to make it right." Instead, it's "I'm sorry about what happened, it sucks and all, but like, I was actually trying to SAVE you, and Garrett, and my family, and my life sucked, so it's actually not my fault at all, and besides, you've made mistakes too, so whatever."
ReplyDeleteLike Bobbi said, he always has an excuse or someone else to blame. He's incapable of taking responsibility for his actions. That might be the only way to explain his decision to restart Hydra in the end: he's in pain over Kara, but he doesn't know HOW to recognize that what happened is his own fault, so the only thing he can do is find a scapegoat (SHIELD).
One day, if he's still alive, it's finally going to catch up and he'll realize
Everyone wants a featurette about Raina's makep process, LOL.
ReplyDeleteThat would be cool as well, or the scene in the Cabin when Skye "quaked" bobbi and the other agents. To be honest given the huge amount of VFX this season I'd just love to see behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteNo. It would ruin the rest of the main characters.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Ward will ever managed to realize the fact that he's the one to blame for his choices. I just don't think he has the emoitional capacity to make such a groundbreaking realisation. When you think of how they made such a deal of Cal having a "big heart and empathy", everything we've seen from Ward shows that he doesn't. From the Fall, kidnapping Skye, FitzSimmons, killing so many agents all the way through to playing a role in Skye's change to Bobbi. He has shown zero morality or empathy in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I've made the same point before in regards to SkyeWard.
ReplyDeleteI posted this a few days before the finale aired just, FYI. Since Ward has been the 'hot topic' I thought it would spark an interesting debate.
ReplyDeleteGood call. ;-)
ReplyDeleteYou gotta love how fans who hated the finale are now all, "Yeah, this show is probably going to get cancelled anyway." Keep it classy, folks.
ReplyDeleteI don't think what they did with Ward's character had anything to with the lower rating for the finale either. I do wonder if being a two hour episode might have affected the ratings though.
ReplyDeleteI have this philosophy where if you think you can do better writer a fanfiction to see if you actually can do better or stop talking. (This completely explains why I've actually written high school musical fanfiction.) But I don't think a lot of fans realize that what they want can only exist in fanfiction because it doesn't work on screen. Name-calling and negativity helps no one.
ReplyDeleteAfter he shot Kara (who he thought was May) without any hesitation, no way! You can't get any redemption when you want to kill the people of the group you hate the vice versa. At this point, I actually want him gone.
ReplyDeleteI actually really like the idea of him becoming the new head of Hydra and becoming Coleson's true nemesis. I think that would suit the story the best.
ReplyDeleteI used to, but I think he's too far gone now, so no...
ReplyDeleteeverything kara and ward fell flat to me, no substance or investment there.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean them as a couple, but more his actions against everyone from the Fall through to the finale. For Kara, I do think that Ward was playing some other angle.
ReplyDeleteNo way Coulson and co. are going to let him back on after what he did/almost did to Bobbi and Hunter.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, they were obviously struggling to get him to that point in the finale.
ReplyDeleteNo. No for many reasons - one, he is so much more interesting when he's evil. Sane, nice Ward was super boring, and while I'm sure whatever redeemed version would be different than dull Ward from early season one, I don't want to take that chance. Seriously, he was so, so boring.
ReplyDeleteTwo, he keeps trying to kill members of the team. I find that is detrimental to team morality. And health. It's just not helpful.
Three, he can't accept responsibility for what he's done. People only change when they can accept what they've done in the past, not just that it was wrong, but that it's their fault as much as any event or other person who pushed them to do what they did. If you can't get to that point, any attempt at change or redemption will never work.
Four, it feels like he'll be a good main villain for next year. Not only is he fun and crazy, like the best Marvel villains tend to be, he's got such personal connections to the team, which is always great in a villain. Makes for better motivations.
Now, I don't think it's impossible for him to be redeemed and make it a good story, or even for him to rejoin the team. This HYDRA arc could push him to some kind of pressure point that sends him back the other direction, then spend the whole next season actually coming to terms with what he's done and doing good things, then put the team into a situation where they have no choice but to work with him. The dynamics of the team having to come to terms with Ward not just a psychopath they can dismiss or shoot, but as a potential real ally and someone they need, would be an interesting arc; making Fitz, Simmons, May, Bobbi and Skye have to deal with real remorse from the man who hurt and betrayed them could bring some intense character development, because it's almost easier when he's just another villain to fight now. However, it would take a lot to pull this off without all of us wanting to put our head through a wall, and while I adore AoS, I'm not sure they'd be able to make it work. It's a tough story to sell. But Ward as the main villain - that's going to be awesome. And I'm looking forward to it.
I don't want him back in the Team. I want him with Kara. I like them together.
ReplyDeleteI can't pretend I don't criticize many aspects of shows, this one included, but when my feelings towards them become THIS negative I just tune out. I don't stick around to wish cancellation upon them. Moreover, when this attitude comes from someone based solely on a specific aspect, in this case Ward, you know it's bias. "The show didn't write my favorite character the way I wanted them to? They should be cancelled."
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think it's the 2-hour thing. People who watch something else, go out or go to bed at 10pm likely preferred to skip both hours and DVR them. It was obvious that Part 1 would end at a highly suspensful point so I can imagine many preferred to watch the entire finale in one sitting. Hopefully, they don't do any 2-hour eps next season. Either way, it has nothing to do with Ward.
ReplyDeleteI want him killed. Preferably by May.
ReplyDeleteI want him dead.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny because I can't withstand 99% of the fanfictions in FanFiction.Net precisely because of that, the majority of the fanfic writers don't have a good graps at pacing and always force situations without the proper buildup usually for the sake of their favorite relationship. Excellent fanfictions are very few and far between and you can usually tell by the surprisingly high number of reviews, with Harry Potter being a good example of fandom where you can find a good amount of those.
ReplyDeleteI'm personally over Ward and his family drama. Apart from Skye, his is the most developed backstory and I'm tired of his supposed man pain. Give me more FitzSimmons, Coulson, May (I miss her mom)and Huntingbird backgrounds.
ReplyDeleteHis backstory is hardly developed as you imagine, we don't even know anything about his father, mother and sister other than they exist and remotely know how really terrible life in the Ward homestead was, only vague hints that they were "torture". Just as with Skye's origin they've planned to reveal this to us since season 1 and I'm fairly confident the time has come for it in season 3 so I guess you may be in for a whole season lamenting the excess not only of Grant Ward but his whole family as well. Sorry that you feel that way.
ReplyDeleteI will take the show for as long as it remains on air. I never expected it to go beyond 2 seasons because I remember when it was first announced that it wouldn't go beyond S2.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love it and am satisfied with what they have done with it. I want the writer'sto continue telling their story not fan fiction from a small subset of the fandom. They've surprised me by not succumbing to every tv trope in the known universe just to please a few. I'm not happy with everything they have done but I'm satisfied.
Those that stopped watching in S1 stopped because there were no superheroes and those that stop watching in S3 because Ward is still an evil douche aren't worth a single sleepless night. The show is brilliant as is. It's their loss. If season 3 is going to be the last, I say bring it! I will enjoy every single moment of it knowing Ward will never be redeemed in the team's eyes. He incinerated every bridge he had in the finale (taking poor Kara with him) and if S2 was going to be the last season I'd be more than happy we got to see him for what he was, a deranged lunatic, who continues to use his abuse (horrible as it was) as an excuse to justify his atrocities, one vile act after another. Although Simmons' uncertainty would sadden me, I would be happy the show left on a high note.
So to those heralding the end of this show for no other reason than the show crashed and burned their hopes and dreams, I feel sorry for the whole lot of you, you will miss out on some of the best television has to offer.
This reminds of a quote from GoT "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." We are literally barrelling down towards Civil War, and if we are lucky enough to get more seasons after S3, there's Infinity War to contend with. There's no way this show is going to end with people happily riding off into the sunset. And I know how this whole "It's all connected" seems trifle to some people that believe the show isn't so important to Marvel's big MCU juggernaut universe but the show is connected. AoS, however small a role it may play, it's enough to keep the writers from falling completely off the rails of what Marvel wants to achieve. I mean we got the first MCU introduction to inhumans on the show. It's not about what the fans want but what Marvel is paddling, which explains the show subverting most tv tropes. AoS is essentially a cog in a very big wheel, the writers can tell their stories so long as they fit in the bigger narrative and I think Ward and his redemption aren't part of that narrative in that, it's not relevant. If the writers choose to redeem him (a travesty in my opinion) it won't matter because it's not about him but about SHIELD continuing to function with each and every new threat till we can get to Thanos, if we're lucky enough to get more seasonsthat is. Sadly for some of his fans, the writers discovered that Ward is better as a villain than a good guy and they have been pushing it since S1E17. For now, I think they are enjoying themselves too much writing him this way and won't want to make him good.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of the team not being damaged is no excuse for us not knowing about and what lead them to SHIELD. I know more than enough about Grant than I do Coulson, the main character. Had it not been for the movies, I'd know even less. It's called Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D for a reason. Give us more about these agents. How can we keep seeing them week in and out and still know very little about them. This show was never about Grant and we are stuck in his vortex of suck so we can see more of his man pain. Not compelling television from a show that's about SHIELD spies.
ReplyDeleteAs somebody who’s been reading fanfiction for 15 years and writing it for the last six I completely agree with you. You’re right, Harry Potter is one of those where plot usually comes first. I also discovered that sometimes fans get upset when you focus on the plot of your story instead of the ship when you
ReplyDeletepoint-blank say that your relationships are all secondary or when you take 35 chapters to build up a relationship and still not have the characters jump into bed together because it’s not in character. So
really it’s no different than how they treat the writers and producers of the
original product.
Another thing I’ve discovered is that generally the fanfiction on Archive of Our Own tend to be of a higher quality than the stuff on fanfiction.net, but that may be because a lot of the writers on AO3 appeared to be a little bit older and a bit more experience. Also, there are better filters.
They
ReplyDeletecould have different fathers. That would explain why Thomas was the favorite.
Actually the hole Ward-arc is kind of pointless. The show would have worked absolutely without it and I as I doubt that he will be the head of Hydra in "Civil War" I hope there will be more about him in S3.
ReplyDeleteThe way they portrayed Jiaying and the Inhumans is way more problematic as I see it. Many viewers already didn't liked them right from the start and the hole Jiaying is kind of a vampire and wanted to kill her own daughter was not helpfull and absolutely out of character with everything ever shown about the Inhumans in the comics. It just looks like a very cheap way to let SHIELD be good for exactely the same thing it was shoot down in "Winter Soldier".
Now they need to fix all that mess before "Infinity War" and the Inhuman movie. At least the show didn't copied the Joss Whedon attitude that everything not human has no rights and can be killed without concerns.
I think Bret Dalton is brilliant as Ward. That said, absolutely not. Unless he goes through the TAHITI program, he will never deserve a place on Team Coulson.
ReplyDeleteThat makes me think about many effects they have on the show these days. Apart from all the shots of the Bus or the Quinjets flying, you have tons of effects shots like Skye throwing the Quinet into the ocean with her powers, Gordon teleporting like 15 times during the fight scene in the fan room, Alisha cloning herself, Lincoln's electricity, etc. It does make me a bit worried for the future of the show because it's clear it costs a lot to produce, even if the effects are not movie-quality.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Cal and Ward have been pretty different from the start, which is why KG is kidding herself when she claims that it's some kind favoritism from the writers that Cal was redeemed and Ward wasn't. When have we EVER seen Cal cold-bloodedly pull the trigger, in the way Ward has over and over again? He was crazy. When he couldn't control his rage, and lashed out violenty at whoever was unfortunate enough to be around. That's nothing like Ward, a man who infiltrated SHIED in the service of Nazis for a decade, has killed anyone who got in the way of his mission or could blow his cover, and continues to kill or torture whenever it serves his current goal. He is perfectly rational - and ruthless.
ReplyDeleteGood point, I mean when you think about it, even just Skye "Quaking" (is that what we are calling it ;)) pistols apart must have a price tag. Even though it looks cool everytime I see it.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, from 2.04 we've seen Cal struggling with dealing with the consequences of the serum in terms of his emotional control, which is made all the worse when you see that it wasn't entirely his choice to be exposed to that serum. That's what makes it tragic for him.
ReplyDeleteFor Ward as you said, he knowingly did the acts. He knew what he was doing, he told Skye he hadn't been mind controlled into doing them. And even if you were to give him everything up to Garret (which I'm SO not), once Garrat was dead he and he alone is responsible for his actions and the consequences of them.
Trying to equate the two is a logical failure in my view.
I think the entire team would have to go through TAHITI, otherwise somebody of the team would end up killing him...
ReplyDeleteI'd prefer Skye, just to show how much things had changed since Ward dragged her onto the bus in the hood.
ReplyDeleteDEFINITELY NO. Ward knew full well what he was doing was wrong, he just didn't care
ReplyDeleteI agree with that assessment.
ReplyDeleteI can understand it from Kara's point of view and I think if she'd approached Bobbi it may have been different... as Bobbi said to Kara, Ward was using the situation to control Kara and was getting off on the torture too.... he's a lost cause but I honestly think he makes a great villain.
ReplyDeleteI kinda feel sorry for Kara though... she was a good SHIELD agent who had the misfortune to get caught in that safe house, tortured and brainwashed by HYDRA, getting her but kicked by May and face fried, misused by Ward and then for all the torture and brainwashing to recur in her mind when the brainwashing was finally removed, further misused by Ward and finally shot by him thinking it was May.
ReplyDelete