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Supernatural – Season 9 So Far – The Gripe Review

22 Dec 2013

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Happy Holidays Supernatural fans. Just before the good tides arrive I come bearing gifts: the last gripes of 2013, for the season so far.

Some told me it’s unfair that Supernatural is the only show that gets these reviews. I’ve been asked a few times why I write them, or why I won’t stop watching the show when I have so many problems with it. This might be a good place to answer those questions.

Why would I still watch a show I think has so many issues? Simple, because I love the actors and the characters they portray. I also love the earlier seasons. My problem is with the current crop of writers. I think none of them are qualified for their jobs, and if I were the show runner, I would fire the whole lot of them. That may sound harsh but it is what this show needs to get back to its previous quality level. In my eyes, right now, there isn't one writer on the staff who understands Supernatural the way he or she should. And it frustrates me that the characters I love and care about so much are in the hands of amateurs.

The other thing people keep telling me is to read fanfiction if I don't like the show. I find that suggestion bizarre. Not liking bad writing in the official medium doesn't mean I should turn to bad writing in unofficial mediums. I'm not saying all fanfiction is badly written, just that I usually have a hard time finding any good ones. In all the time I spent in the SPN fandom I've only read one truly good fanfic (Named by McLachland.) And fanfiction won’t give me the actors on screen,which as I said is one of my reasons for watching the show.

But enough about me. Let’s talk about Season 9 and all that went sideways. I've divided this review into three categories: Characters, Relationships and The Show. Furthermore, instead of listing all the individual problems that appeared during the season’s first half, I focused on subject matters that the gripes collectively emphasized on. These mostly centered around what the characters did during the season and how they affected the main story arcs.

Characters



One of the most important tenets of storytelling is that all your major characters must have a purpose on stage, a goal they aspire to or a reason they would stick around in the story. If you have a character without an objective you should write him or her out to avoid wasting space. One of the great qualities of the earlier seasons of Supernatural was that every character, major or secondary, followed this rule, and even though some of their goals changed from season to season, they always had one.

With that in mind let’s talk about the three main characters of Season 9.

Sam

When it came to Sam in Season 9 one question fans kept asking was “Where is Sam?” Most complained that, aside from the dream sequence in the first episode, the bit with Crowley and Kevin, and some random cases, Sam was largely absent from the season.

That however isn’t strictly true. Sam hasn't so much been absent from the season as he’s been absent from its main arcs. He has been there doing random things and influencing minor plots, but beyond being a receptacle for another player of the main storyline, and Dean’s motive for pretty much everything, he has had no effect on the mythology.

Referring to the intro to this segment the question shouldn’t be “Where is Sam?” but rather “Why is Sam (on the show?)” or more accurately “What is Sam’s purpose/goal on the show?”

The only answer I could think of comes from the season premier, when we watched Sam talk to made-up characters in his head. Based on what he told his version of Death we know he wants one thing: to die.

Does anyone accept that as a goal for one of the major characters of a show? Maybe yes if there was enough rationale behind it, like being so guilt ridden, lost, depressed or beaten that one would become suicidal. And you may argue that Sam is at that stage due to his experience with the trials, but what about the scene in the church at the end of Sacrifice, where Dean desperately pulled Sam from the edge of the abyss? I don’t know about anyone else but to me that meant Sam’s impromptu flirtation with suicide was effectively over. I thought the brothers turned a page there and even though they didn't succeed in closing the gates of hell, at least they succeeded in keeping each other alive and interested in staying that way. So how come all that went away in Season 9?

This has been an ongoing problem with Sam’s character after Season 5. He either has no goal, or his goal is something the audience doesn't approve of (like dying, keeping his soul in hell, etc.) In fact Sam’s impoverishment on Supernatural (and this somewhat dates back to Kripke's era) is that most of the times he doesn't “have” a goal, he “is” the goal.

Which brings us to the damsel-in-distress nature of his character, and the second complaint fans have about his writing. There’s always something wrong with Sam, or he is always in some kind of peril. Be it possession, illness, being targeted by villains, or plain human troubles like addiction, Sam’s purpose is to provide other characters (primarily Dean) with a goal. This means the audience hardly gets to know Sam himself, and build an emotional connection with him. Most of the affection viewers feel for him comes from the trickledown effect from Dean. In that sense Sam is like those princesses in fairy tales who are trapped in towers or put to sleep by an evil spell. We don’t know them, we only know they are important and loved because the hero says so.

Castiel



Everything I said about Season 9 Sam applies to Season 9 Castiel with one notable difference: he is not the princess. Unlike Sam who is the topic of everyone’s conversation most of the time - even though he himself is barely allowed to weigh in on any subjects because he is usually unwell – Castiel hasn’t been on any other protagonist’s radar for a while. And this season not even the antagonists want him on their team. Aside from several angels targeting him for different reasons (which fluctuates based on who wrote the episode) he has had no purpose on the show this season so far.

This aspect of Season 9 (along with its social/moral issues) is what mostly turned me off from it. I have been a Castiel fan since Season 6 because to me, he had the most fascinating story of all. Ever since he fell and started his quest for redemption he provided me with the highest level of entertainment on Supernatural. Granted it hadn’t always been quality story telling (how did he survive all those deaths and who the heck was Daphne?) but it was consistent, and gave Castiel a clear goal in seeking redemption. That all disappeared in Season 9.

When Castiel turned human at the end of Season 8 I felt excited and thought a new chapter of his journey had begun. I wondered how he would deal with the new disaster he unintentionally caused, how it would affect him mentally, emotionally and psychologically. How would a human Castiel deal with the overwhelming emotions, temptations and struggles humans faced every day? Those were questions I mostly wanted answers to.

Did we get any of those answers? I’d say no. Instead the writers filled his story with physical humor of the lowest level, like discovery of bodily functions. They also made a circus of him exploring the nature of sex and went so far they overstepped the line of decency into misogyny and rape jokes.

What saddens me most about Castiel is the excuse writers kept giving in the previous seasons, about why he couldn’t be more onscreen and had to constantly be depower, vilified or stupefied. According to them it was hard to write Castiel as a powerful ally without having him be a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina. Yet this season, with Castiel’s powers non-existent, nothing changed. They still kept him off screen, and didn’t let him be a part of the main story arc even though that story was about fallen angels. Instead they turned him into Irrelevant Steve whose presence or absence didn’t matter. The only function he had was to vouch for Ezekiel, the new walking, talking Deus Ex Machina on the show, and, I suppose, to be comic relief.

Dean

I left Dean for last because, surprisingly, he was spoiled the least. Unlike the other two his character did have a goal to pursue. Problem was, it was the same goal he pursued since the dawn of time.

If you spent more than a few months in the fandom, and talked to more than a few fans, you’d would know that “give Dean a storyline,” was the rally cry of a major section of Dean fans. Fans were upset that Dean never seemed to be the center of the plot, never got to do anything important, and was essentially stuck in a supporting role. Never has that been more exaggerated than the end of Season 8, with Sam doing the trials on his own and Dean demoted to spoon feeding him.

In Season 9 the writers decided to change the status quo. They set out to give Dean a more active role in the same vain they did with Castiel in Season 6, by orchestrating his downfall. Problem is, while Castiel’s motives in Season 6 for going to the dark side were complicated, and a blend of character traits and flaws, Dean’s are still the same song and dance he did since Season 1: keeping Sam safe. Even though this singularity of incentive has been called a trademark of the show, it has made Dean’s character one note and uninventive. He never surprises you. You always know what he’d do.

In a way Dean’s problem is the opposite of Sam and Castiel’s. While their goals and motivations fluctuated from season to season, sometimes from episode to episode depending on what the plot mandated, Dean’s has been stuck in the same circle for nearly a decade, running round and round and returning to the same spot.

Some fans argue that it is the heart of the show. It’s why you should watch Supernatural. It’s cute and we all should love it. Unfortunately it really stopped being cute this season, when they tinged it with Dean’s gravitation toward darkness by taking away his brother’s agency and kicking out his best friend. Another devastating effect Season 9 had on this aspect of Dean’s character was taking away Dean’s moral compass when it came to his love for his brother, which I’m going to elaborate on in the Sam and Dean section.

Bottom line about Dean: when fans said they wanted him to have a storyline, I doubt they meant more of the same but with added lies, secrets, snubbing of other allies and endangering people’s lives. They meant Dean being an important player in the main arc. Dean still doesn’t matter to anyone on the show. In a way he is still spoon feeding Sam, only now he’s not telling him what’s in the formula.

The Stupid Bug

I made a special section for this because it was one of the most incessant plagues of Season 9 that infected all three characters.

Watching the season, I constantly felt like reminding the writers that Sam went to Stanford on a full scholarship. There was no way he wouldn’t notice something was off with him. Even someone with half his IQ would have realized the missing times and disappearing wounds, not to mention dead people coming to life. The way he accepted every lie Dean told him – and Dean is a bad liar, I can tell you that – and dropped his suspicions of him was as if he intentionally played dumb.

Dean was infected with this bug too and I talked about it in detail in the last review. A shady angel comes along and possesses his brother and the only credibility he has is Castiel telling Dean he is a good soldier. Yet when the same angel – who in the beginning claimed to be Castiel’s ally – turns against Castiel Dean doesn’t question him, he follows all his whims like a happy puppy. Some people told me it was because Dean was afraid for Sam, that his love for his brother blinded him and prevented him from taking the risk. I’d say precisely because of that he should’ve been more careful, maybe done some investigation on Sam’s passenger on the side. People do thorough background checks on people they want to rent their apartments to. Dean let an angel live inside his brother and his only reference was the word of a friend whom he didn’t even share the secret with.

Speaking of Castiel, I don’t even know where to begin on his affliction with the stupid bug. Even though he always struggled with the intricacies of human life the idiocy of it was cranked up to eleven this season. It was as if a chunk of his brain left his body with his grace.

Allow me to elaborate on the difference between stupidity and cultural confusion. You could be a genius but get culturally confused when you go to a new place with unfamiliar customs. I always thought that was the case with Castiel since he was a millennia old creature who had observed humanity since it crawled out of the ocean as a fish. It wasn’t out of the realm of possibility for him not to know how to leave a voicemail or how to interpret porn. Eating toothpaste and trying to turn on an unplugged TV however is sheer stupidity. And what’s worse, it was used randomly for comedic effect.

Let me make it very clear to the writers right here. None of the fans I talked to, or read from, found this stuff funny. Cultural confusion is funny because it preserves the character's dignity and could happen to all of us. Mental struggle or simple incompetence on the job (such as fumbling with a slushy machine) is not funny. At best you get frustrated with the character's silliness, at worst you feel uncomfortable about the ableism it implies. It’s been years since viewers found someone slipping on a banana peel laugh-out-loud material. The way it is applied to Castiel only makes viewers roll their eyes and think of him, and your writing of him, as pointless and annoying.

Relationships

Sam and Dean (the Brotherly Bond)


This was the relationship that made me a fan of the show. Beyond the emotional appeal of two brothers willing to die for each other, there was an element of speculation and thrill about their story. Since the two of them were charged with saving the world, they were constantly put at crossroads (sometimes literally.) And the audience wondered: would they choose each other, or their duty to the family business? That aspect made the show infinitely intriguing because sometimes, just like the brothers, the audience didn't know the answer either.

Of course that all changed in the later seasons. Post Season 5 show runners took this genius idea of a plot churner, stripped it of all its intrigue, and reduced it to its barest skeletal form: the idea that Dean would do anything for Sam.

Suddenly there seemed to be no question about what Dean would do at crossroads. Whether he would choose duty or his brother was no longer a point of speculation. The show runners put him on autopilot and programmed him to always choose Sam. And thus Dean, who refused to kill a virgin in Jus in Bello, refused to give up Anna in Heaven and Hell, and agreed to not stop Sam from sacrificing himself in Swan Song, suddenly began to ignore the integrity of any action that was required for the upkeep of his brother. This was demonstrated in Season 8 with Sam having issues with Benny and Dean practically abandoning the mild mannered, melancholy vampire to please his brother. Also when it turned out Sam had to die in order to close the gates of hell Dean went out of his way to stop him, making all their efforts throughout the second half of Season 8 worthless and their chance to forever stop demons from wreaking havoc in the human world void.

It all came to a terrible head in Season 9 when Dean’s efforts to once again “save Sam” resulted in wounding not only others but Sam himself. By tricking his brother into accepting an angel to inhabit his body Dean did the ultimate questionable deed. The debate now is whether or not this storyline is supposed to lead to a dialogue about the sanity and virtue of the codependency and how far it should stretch, or if it will be brushed under the carpet without resolution by the arrival of yet another shiny new storyline, much like it happened in Season 8 with the stories of Benny and Amelia.

How does Sam feel about the brotherly bond? My honest answer is I don’t know. We don’t get enough insight into Sam’s mind to understand whether he would do the same for Dean or not. Many “Brothers” fans would say “Yes,” and scorn you for doubting his love. But there’s the ugly fact that Sam left Dean in Purgatory, and with the uneven way he has been written since Season 6, it’s a valid reservation to have about his character.

Dean and Castiel (the Profound Bond)



After my enthusiasm for the Sam and Dean relationship cooled down in Season 6, and along with my rising interest in Castiel’s redemption story, this became my favorite relationship on the show. For all the missteps post Kripke show runners committed, they did a decent job establishing a heart breaking and volatile relationship between these two.

The greatness of the Cas/Dean relationship was the fact that they each came from completely different backgrounds. It was fascinating to watch this old, celestial soldier of God, with immense power and reach, make this feeble human the center of his world. After Castiel’s fall and his subsequent quest for atonement Dean became a major player in his story. He became a sort of barometer for him to assess his level of forgiveness. Making Dean forgive him became Castiel’s goal. It was a spectacle to watch these two dance around each other and try to climb the mountain of issues that stood between them.

If I were to name only one pro for Season 8 it would be the way it further developed and expanded this relationship. With the addition of Dean’s guilt over leaving Castiel is purgatory, and Castiel’s manipulation by Naomi, the coils of their friendship became more twisted, causing many fans to wonder where it was ultimately heading and how it would finally be resolved.

Then came Season 9 and something changed. I still don’t know what but when Dean and Castiel reunited it was as if everything between them had disappeared. Castiel no longer seemed to care about Dean’s approval, or his own quest for redemption. His major preoccupations were blending in with the humans around him and having as much sex as his brief appearances made possible.

And Dean, he became cruel, for no reason and in completely baffling ways. From throwing Castiel out of the bunker without money, alternative options, or even the barest of explanations, to mocking his honest attempts at making a living, it seemed the writers were on a mission to show how much Dean didn’t care for his friend, and how much that friend didn’t care for him.

But worse than all of that was the fact that all the history between them seemed to have vanished. No mention of Purgatory, no talk of heaven, Castiel’s loss, Dean’s struggle to forgive him, their final work together to finish Castiel’s second trial, which ended in his and the rest of heaven’s downfall…it all seemed to have been wiped away, replaced by tasteless jokes about non-consensual sex and pointless talks about the case of the week.

There’s a theory out there that this was done intentionally, to deconstruct the romantic undertones of their relationship after so many fans demanded it to become canon. I personally don’t think that is the case, unless Carver is a homophobe or has some kind of vendetta against his fans, neither of which I think is true. To me, like what happened to the brotherly bond, it is more a case of losing sight of what makes people love the show and simplifying complicated, emotionally layered storylines to their most boring, basic aspects. Or perhaps it’s because writing the show at the level it once was is too challenging for the current crop of writers.

The Show

Plot




Again going back to seasons 1-5, one of the aspects of Supernatural that made it stand above the rest of the scifi/fantasy shows was its season long plots. Each season’s storyline was so straightforward it could be described in one short sentence. Season1: Find dad. Season 2: Find and kill YED. Season 3: Save Dean from going to hell.

This changed in Season 6. I’m not sure anyone could come up with a description of what the plots of seasons 6-8 were about without having to write up at least a paragraph. Season 9 is no exception.

Another thing about the earlier seasons was that no matter what the main conflict was, Sam and Dean were at the center of it. Even when the end of the wold was nearing it was up to Sam and Dean to determine whether it happened or not. This involvement of the heroes is crucial in keeping the audience invested in the conflict because, in this show that is filled with otherworldly creatures, our heroes represent humanity and are the reasons we care about the story in the first place.

Now let’s look at Season 9. What are the plotlines of this season and where do Sam and Dean fit in? There’s the heavenly battle between three factions of angels: Metatron, Bartholomew and Malachi. There’s the rivalry between Crowley and Abaddon to see who would rule hell. And there’s Castiel’s human story.

Sam and Dean play no major roles in any of these storylines.

It’s true they are involved in them. They are tied to the angel war through Ezekiel/Gadreel’s possession of Sam, to the demon war by holding Crowley captive, and occasionally to Castiel when his path crosses with them. But as characters who are the faces of the show their existence barely matters in the grand scheme of each conflict. You could remove them and all sides could go on with their plans without a hitch (except Gadreel would need a new suit.)


This is not a simple matter. When your heroes take a backseat in your show’s main arcs you are doing something wrong. Your audience watches the conflicts to root for those heroes and their side. If they find them holed up in a bunker having adventures with Dorothy of Oz instead, while the war wages outside without them, they lose interest in that war and feel no attachment to it.

Personally I don’t know why I should care about the heavenly skirmish. Neither of the sides involved represents humanity, nor affects it in any way. Unlike the apocalypse which would’ve razed the human world to the ground ala Terminator 2: Judgment Day, or the unleashing of the Purgatory souls which brought down the Leviathans, heaven’s gates opening or closing and who’d become its ruler won’t change anything for Sam and Dean. The only thing that slightly matters is if Gadreel runs off with Sam. But, considering what I said in the Sam and Dean section, that will likely not happen because Dean won’t let it, so there is really nothing keeping me at the edge of my seat regarding the fallen angles.

As for Crowley and Abaddon, we’ve seen so little of them I’m not sure what is happening. The only thing I can do is wait and hope they give us more information later.

And my only comment on Castiel’s story is that if I wanted to watch a patchwork documentary about a guy trying to survive on the streets I would have watched A&E, and made sure I screwed up my DVR settings so I’d miss all the important parts about how he got a job at a gas station and how he went from being a clerk to impersonating an FBI agent.

Social Issues



I was initially hesitant to add this section to this review, mainly because I thought I already covered everything about it in the previous articles. However some fans believed proper emphasis had not been given to this topic and that it deserved another mention. I agreed because, yes, rape jokes and misogyny aren’t on the same level as continuity errors and canon violations. They deserve to be held up and thrust in the writers’ faces so they see and understand why you should never include them in scripts.

A lot of fans were upset about the treatment of April. What upset them was not so much the fact that she was possessed by a reaper and used for sex and murder, but the way the boys handled it. Twice the topic came up and, each time, we saw neither remorse nor horror. Instead we heard them joke about the incident, picture April’s dead body naked, and high-five Castiel for finally losing his virginity. Perhaps the show has a mission to slather hetero-masculinity all over itself since, as Kripke once said, “It’s always two dudes on the road” which might turn one’s thoughts to homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean its beloved characters must act like inconsiderate bastards. There is a time for sex jokes and funny innuendo and a time for proper respect. The writers got it wrong at every turn this season.


So there you have it. The long list of my gripes for Supernatural’s Season 9 so far. I’m sure I missed some you would want to remind me of. I’m also certain many readers don’t agree with what I wrote here. Please feel free to post your thoughts in the comments. These articles are an outlet for me to rant about the decline of my favorite show. But more than that, they are a space for you to say whatever is on your mind about Supernatural and challenge my claims. If I failed to mention something you thought was important, or if you think I got something wrong, please speak up.

I’d like to wish everyone happy holidays and a wonderful New Year with a new Supernatural that hopefully will dazzle us all and make the purpose of these reviews completely obsolete. Let that be my wish to Santa this year.

Tessa

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twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

629 comments:

  1. i agree with your every word!!

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  2. Pleased to hear that. :)

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  3. I agree wholeheartedly. I am hopeful that the second half will get better. Usually the second half is completely different from the first half. I am glad Cas is an angel again (hated everything about human Cas) and am intrigued by Gadreel/Sam, so we shall see if things get better!

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  4. Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's as if you've been in my head, you're exposing my exact feelings about this season. About time some criticism was written, I thought I was weird as I've only read praise and I'm not seeing the greatness of S9 anywhere.


    I've been bitching and complaining on social networks and LJ since the premiere. I'm not liking where the story is going, I feet cheated. As you perfectly put it, the focus has changed from Sam and Dean to the angel wars. A show supposedly about the Winchester brothers has turned into a show about I'm not sure what with its main characters playing secondary roles. We've been robbed of Sam's point of view, hell, we've been even robbed of Sam as a character as he's simply a vessel now. Speaking of that, I wondered since the first episode why did they make Castiel human to, then, have another superpowered angel saving the day. It makes no sense.


    Like you, I love Sam and Dean, I adore their relationship and their codependency, it's why I'm still watching despite how awful I'm finding this season. I'm tempted to quit, to remember how great these series used to be and stick only to the DVDs of the first seasons, but my love for these characters and their story prevent me. I feel some kind of loyalty towards them and towards Jared and Jensen which obliges me to stay with them until the end.


    I hope the plots improve by the second half, I hope to feel proud of this show again, I hope to enjoy the brothers' relationship as much as I enjoyed it before. And I hope the showrunner and writers understand the human aspect is what gives excellency to this show.

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  5. Sadly for loyal SPN fans , very true ! Every word of it ! Thank you for covering all season 9 bugs ! Hope things get better in the second half of the season

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  6. I disagree with a lot of that. Just seems a little to nit-picky. But i'll leave it at that as I read on another site that you get banned from SpoilerTV if you speak your opinion on this gripe review thing.

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  7. @JustinC83 Nope, you don't get banned her for that, we welcome all opinions as long as they are respectful and don't resort to name calling. Out of the 50,000 people who have commented on this site, we've only had to banned less than 10 people since we started the site in 2007

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  8. THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this article.
    Season 9 is a disaster... and I hope it gets better in the second half. Better and IN CHARACTER!

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  9. I agree with the vast majority of what you say here. Especially the stuff about Cas, that really grinds on me every episode this season.

    One nit-pick about your comments. You seem to be saying that the problem with Dean is that we know exactly what he will do in any situation and we shouldn't, while the problem with Sam is that we don't know exactly what he will do in any situation and we should...

    Personally I have no problem understanding Sam, perhaps because I am a younger brother too. Dean is a very simple guy with simple motivations. I don't relate to Dean very much, though he is certainly the funner character, while Sam is often the stick in the mud.

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  10. Thanks for the comment Percy. I know as far as favorite characters and relationships go we differ a lot, but I'm glad we agree so much on what is currently problematic about the show. You hit the nail on the head about the silliness of the Stupid Cas trope. I'm a fan of his and even I couldn't stand his antics this season. When they had a newly fallen angel (Muriel) tell him he should plug a TV set to the wall before turning it on I almost wanted to smash my TV.


    I also agree with you on the social issues having been a problem for a long time. Man's Best Friend was a pinnacle of questionable writing, and the April disaster wasn't far behind. My desperate hope is that someone on the writing staff sees this, reads the comments, and pays more attention. I don't think the writers are intentionally ignorant or sexist, I think they just don't realize what they are doing.

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  11. Not only 9x05 and 9x03 were disastrous about social issues and basically lack of plot, but 9x08 was the peak of how disastrous ignorant writers can turn a show, and 9x07 was an example of the non-research writers do before writing an episode. The whole "werewolf" thing was a disaster of epic proportions the writer didn't know how to explain until he found an excuse (with no continuity on the show either) on twitter.


    Where's the seriousness? I cannot find it...

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  12. For all the complaints about her (I'm in the minority who liked her seasons), Sera Gamble was the one writer who actually took note of some of the blatant issues the show has with sex. She did make the writers see that Sam sleeping with Ruby in a real girl's body would be rape, a point that was totally ignored with April. I wish someone on staff would look at these issues, but I suspect no one cares any more.

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  13. The only thing I disagree is the treatment of April.
    Since like season 6 (maybe earlier) possessions has been treated like death, with the brother's not even questioning if the host is alive or not, cause it defaults at the host being dead.


    And this is true for every possession, not only demonic. So the case with April is not as much as rape, but necrophilia...


    Urgh, cause anyway, if we consider April's sex with Cas rape, then every instance of killing a demon would be murder. And that's why the show has been defaulting to host = dead


    And with all the shit going on, fine, I'll give them that instead of splitting another hair. At least there's an explanation there.

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  14. I don't even want to THINK about Reaper canon, it's just so off, IMHO. I'm not sure when Death became a lackadaisical, do what you want employer. Frankly, I always thought he was a stickler for rules and would have had problems with any variation (barring the necessary Reapers have to look like people when they are doing their job,for budget reasons) and I really can't see him permitting Rouge Reapers. But there we have it and I can NOT wrap my mind around it.

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  15. Thanks, Tessa, for this article. It expresses my issues with the show as well. I want to like SPN; heck, I want to love it, but it utterly bores me. I keep watching in the hopes that it will get better, and because I have a long history with it; however, it continues to sink in quality. The acting is still topnotch; the writing is abysmal. I am tired of "What's wrong with Sam' 9.0. I'm tired of him still feeling the need to be cleansed, as if God curing him in Sympathy for the Devil and then all of Season 5's efforts at bottling up Lucifer weren't enough, then we get his soul in hell for however long it was and that should have cleansed him only now he has trials to complete so that will finally cleanse him. Hey, he's clean! He didn't ask Azazel to put the blood in him -- and since the body recycles its blood supply ever few months it all would be gone before he was a year old, thus he doesn't need to be cleansed, ever!
    As for Dean, the continued crutch of reducing him to a horny teenager is an insult to all the characterization of the past. He had Lisa -- whether you were a fan of her or not, I was, and through her he had a glimpse into what a real life could have been. As much as he missed Sam, Dean was making a go of his life with Lisa. Setting aside the travesty that Sera did to that storyline and to Lisa and Ben by wiping their memories of Dean -- as if that would keep them safe from demons -- Dean post-Lisa was more adult, more stable, more balanced as a real man -- because real men aren't horn dogs despite the SPN writers best efforts to make us believe. Dean treated the female hunter in this season's second episode as an equal and he made no leering eyes at Dorothy, but we have him rushing off to have sex in the chastity episode -- even after learning that the woman's life was ruined by what she had done previously and was now trying to mend her ways, but no matter, we have to have Dean have sex -- boring and stupid and demeaning.
    It's poor writing all around. None of these writers are doing a good job. Why do I still watch? Simply because I have hope that one day a classic episode will arise again.

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  16. Nah, even if S4 and S5 had issues, they worked with the overall arcs.


    I will agree with the incidental misogyny tho, even if I was in the camp of "Ruby is evil" cause she was a, yanno, demon. So the reveal in S4 was no reveal at all. And I loved S4 Ruby.


    But yeah, when the only characters that don't die, or return, at the end are the dudes, yeah... There's your incidental misogyny.

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  17. That's the only time I remember Gamble caring. Her time as showrunner had an episode where Sam being drug raped was presented as hilarious. She also had deeply offensive views of rape, sex workers, and women in her seasons, especially season 6, where women were routinely stalked, tortured, and murdered for no reason other than shock value or so that Dean/Sam/Bobby could make sad faces.

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  18. Every season tends to have a ton of filler packed together at some point in the season. I think they decided to cram it together early this season and have less filler later on.

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  19. The angel wars have been in a handful of episodes this season.

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  20. That's what I hope. However, I'm a little low on faith at this stage.

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  21. Wow, what an amazing, detailed comment. I want to thank you for coming on here and speaking your mind, even though you dropped the show years ago. Although I loved seasons 4 & 5, I see your points in feeling disappointed with them, especially the part about good and evil taking sides.

    This pretty much sums up why I loathed episode 8 of this season so much and why it is one of my least favorite episodes of the whole series:

    Dean's "masculine sexism" was balanced out by Sam's "what the hell dude" approach to his brother and was mostly a front for Dean's emotional scars. Females were used to further the goals of leads, but equally you would have female characters coming out who would NOT take that sexist bullshit and actually stand up for themselves, not to mention Dean's sexist antics were not glorified and portrayed for what they are - a shallow self-defense mechanism. And of course you had Ellan, Jo, Ruby, Bella, etc.


    Amen to all that. Perhaps one of us should make a memo for the writers to teach them what the characters really look like under all those layers.

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  22. I think for the most part the show does treat Dean maturely with women. Jenny Klein is just a lousy writer.

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  23. In the past fillers were at least funny. Now they are just offensive. And stupid.

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  24. I think season 5 destroyed any arc the show had. I feel like that season gets a huge free pass even though it mostly just was reduced to endless manpain, glorifying of suicide, and destroying all the main relationships on the show for the sake of angst. I've never fully forgiven the show for using Dean's abusive childhood for shock angst in season 5, and never addressing it again.

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  25. Well written article Tessa. I agree with most of your points.

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  26. They kind of have to touch it if only to resolve the Sam/Gadreel storyline. If Dean basically sentenced Sam to death by angel, I would hope it would at least get a mention that possession by an angel means they are never leaving and the host personality is ALWAYS killed. If not then they SHOULD look at all those other possessed people who have gone under the bus due to possession. I do think one big issue is that in season four, the writers declined to show any positive side to Sam's demon blood powers, so other than the one episode where Sam stated he was saving people by exorcising demons with his mind, we were never again permitted to see those actions as anything good. So the default move was to make the host unimportant.


    I did just remember, in season 8 Mrs. Tran survived possession by Crowley. That may have been the last time the host made a difference. Basically the vessel doesn't matter, unless they want to make a point.

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  27. Fillers have always been uneven, from the first season on. I think that the overall episode quality has declined, but every season I have liked some fillers. That hasn't changed.

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  28. It was funny, apparently that's what she considers on twitter... even the objectifying idea she has of latina women.

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  29. Peter J4, you are correct about Jenny Klein's writing: lousy! :-)

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  30. That's what I'm saying... the problem here is not the existence of fillers but the quality of them.

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  31. I agree with a lot of your points, except I feel you were a bit harsh on the writing team. I greatly enjoyed Robbie Thompson and Robert Berens' episodes this season. I certainly appreciate you mentioning the issues with the April storyline (and wish you had also brought up the problems with Suzy in 9.08).


    Also thank you for covering the Dean/Cas relationship, which tends to get ignored in things like this. Their friendship (or however one may see it) is one of the things that keeps me invested in the show. This season they haven't felt like Dean and Cas when interacting with the other. How do the writers expect me to stay interested when my two favorite characters are unrecognizable to me?

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  32. I think that the difference with Gadreel is that we know Sam is alive in there, cause it has been the shtick of the season, and even if he went darkside, I don't think he will try to "evict" Sam, neither I think Sam is in any problem of rejecting the angel cause he was the intended vessel for freaking Lucifer.

    So of course, Sam (a main character!) is the exception, everyone else is just fodder. If you think about it, how many angels they have killed! and those vessels where only guilty of being of being devout Christians; but you know at least they go to heaven?

    And I think that's the best thing about Supernatural, you just know people get to go to a heavily dimension, so their body is just a transient vessel.

    yay?

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  33. I agree that those things where true, but they worked -when it was supposedly the last season- It was supposed to be a clusterfuck of entropy, no happy endings all around but for one character; so in a bleak sense, it worked.

    Now, with the later seasons, it just looses that impact and it sticks like a sore thumb. All those things served to put the characters on the mindset for the denouement, but they don't work now that the show just kept on going, so they just brushed them away.

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  34. I agree, I just don't think low quality fillers is anything new. Season 3's fillers repulsed me at the time, and frankly, they still do. I'm not saying this to excuse the quality problems this season. I just think it's an ongoing struggle. I have liked a few fillers this season, like Bad Boys and Slumber Party, and maybe things will improve.

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  35. For me it didn't even work in that sense. I hate almost everything after Changing Channels. But I respect your opinion.

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  36. I actually agree a lot on season five. I admit that much of my issues are with the fact that after playing Sam's arc "in the background" in season four pretty much ignoring Sam's POV in season five really rankled. They were marching him toward suicide to save the world and redeem his mistakes, but giving him very little emotional insight.



    Then this group came in and really refused to give any look at the mindset that had Sam run after Dean disappeared, so he simply came off looking as if he didn't care, which was Dean's interpretation of what happened. Now Sam has virtually been erased (I honestly don't know how often Gad has been impersonating Sam simply to fool Dean) and it looks as though the writers are going to to keep Sam silenced, possibly forever.

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  37. That was one of the most offensive things I can remember from a writer of SPN on Twitter. I felt like she got a big free pass for all that, but, whatever. I just hope that was her only episode this season.

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  38. Thank you for that! I do encourage you to try to find a way to make the arc compelling in your mind, cause it's just awful to have that "unfinished" feeling stuck in your head. I do think I forgave a lot about season 5 cause I just needed the closure.

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  39. For me Dean's been very consistent in how he is with Cas. Cas has been more uneven, but that's been going on for a while now.

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  40. From what Jared's said, we will be getting some of Sam's POV soon, so I am hoping that happens. I'm hoping, somewhat naively, that they've taken Sam so far out of the equation because we'll get him back soon, and this is a low point.

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  41. That makes sense. I tend to just rewrite a lot of this show in my head. I have for a long time. Sometimes that's not easy. It's one of the reasons I hope the ending of SPN might be open-ended, so we can make the journeys our own.

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  42. It's like the second best thing -given that the show gas become such a chore XD- I'm also waiting for that open ending.

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  43. Well, who is to blame if not the writers?

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  44. Hmm. I agree about Dean being more consistent than Cas, but this season it's just felt completely off to me. From the "she was hot" dialogue in 3 and 9, to how Dean sort of picked on Cas for his human life in 6, it hasn't been what I expect, I guess. That is just me though.

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  45. I don't really think the angel grace was a canon violation, as I don't think it seriously contradicted past angel canon (I don't believe Cas ever would have taken Hael's grace, or taken the grace of angels in season 5 - it was clearly something he did not want to do and knew would be bad).


    The reaper stuff is another matter.

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  46. Thank you for taking the time to point out these important details. Let me say I partly agree. Many of these gripes apply to the previous seasons in a lot of cases and I have mentioned that in a few places in this review. Particularly Dean being cruel to Castiel has been an ongoing issue since season 6. However, a lot of it came with a foundation that I could buy into as an excuse for the writing.

    Dean was mean to Castiel earlier because it had been only a short time he was seeing him, an angel, as a friend (the "baby in the trenchcoat incident") and he was tyrannical to him later because of what Castiel had done. Cas acted stupid for a while because he had taken Sam's illness into himself. It still wasn't funny but it had an explanation behind it. More importantly, it all could be ignored in light of the main storyline established in The Man Who Would Be King.

    I ignored all the little annoyances back then because I could focus on the mythology which fascinated me. This season however there was no mythology. The gags WERE the storyline and as such I was turned off for the first time.

    Sam was about to die. There was no time for a background check. If Ezekiel had left, then Sam would have immediately died. Another reason Dean was boxed in.

    When you watched season 2, did you feel that Dean was written with the stupid bug for selling his soul for Sam, even though he knew this would cause chaos and empower Hell, even though he was angered and sickened that his father had died in a deal for him?

    I didn't mean he should have investigated Ezekiel before letting him possess Sam. But secretly doing some research behind the guy's back afterwards should've been on his to do list. And to answer your question, no I didn't feel he was stupid for selling his soul in season 2. It was an act of desperation that when done, was irreversible. Yet we still saw them try to stop it for an entire season. What's more important about these two events is that in season 2, Dean didn't hide it from Sam, so they got the chance to try to right what had been done together. This season Dean not only kept it from Sam but from everyone. Let's assume Gadreel wasn't bluffing about Sam dying if he told him, what stopped Dean from discussing the issue with Castiel, or Kevin, or heck even Charlie?

    As for Sam's suicidal tendencies, I don't share your opinion about Sam being "systematically broken down in a process that has been going on for many years." His writing has been so inconsistent that I can't say for sure that's the case. Sometimes he seems very upbeat and positive, like when he told Dean it was best that he took on the trials because Dean was the suicidal one and that he, Sam, with his positive outlook on life, would try to take him to the light. The writers really don't know what goes on inside Sam's head so they bend him in shapes that would fit their script. This season required him to be suicidal to facilitate the Ezekiel possession storyline so they went that way. God only knows what will come next.

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  47. I didn't say not to blame them. I said she was a bit harsh, and that some of the writing team I enjoy.

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  48. His "hot" dialogue mostly came across as posturing to me, similar to when he told Cas he could go have an hour with Meg. I don't think it's what Dean necessarily believes, but it's what he feels like he's supposed to say, based on the lessons he was taught about men.


    Dean has a problem with people around him not being what he wants them to be. He did this with Sam, and with Cas too. I think that's why he acted the way he did with Cas in episode 6. Once he realized that was unfair to Cas, he got over it.


    I do see what you're saying, but I've felt like most of Dean's actions were in character, aside from episode 8.


    Cas has had some bad writing, mostly episode 3.

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  49. I think some of the writing has been strong. The season's had a lot of problems, which do need to be pointed out, but I feel like a lot of the criticisms are problems the show's had for a long time, or are just typical of any TV show (like characters making mistakes in order to keep the plot going).

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  50. I think most people want the boys to behave as heroes, and I think it is a fair question to ask if the show can survive with the moral center of the show, Dean, behaving in immoral ways. Having Dean suddenly revert to horndog in "Rock and a Hard Place" was out of character and fodder for teenage comedy. Had he been instrumental in helping the former porn star break her commitment to anyone but herself, Dean would have been viewed with the same disdain as Sam was last year.

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  51. and wish you had also brought up the problems with Suzy in 9.08
    I paid a lot of attention to Suzy and the overall sexism involving her character and Dean in 9.08 in the article I wrote for that episode. It just felt redundant to repeat it here but I agree 100% with you. That was my least favorite episode of the whole season.

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  52. Why did Anna spend so long searching for her own grace. I think an angel is identified by their grace. It's almost like what a soul is to a human and part of their true self. Though they seems to be able to manage fine without it while in a vessel, they shouldn't be able to steal another's grace. It doesn't make sense to me.

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  53. I always just assumed she wanted her own grace, not that she was looking for any angel's grace.

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  54. I like how someone votes me negative but they don't come here to tell me why. You don't like what I'm saying? It's true. Check twitter and see how unprofessional they are. That's all.

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  55. There is no such thing as a "flirtation with suicide", in my opinion. Sam didn't just decide he wanted to die. He was systematically broken down, a process that has been going on for many years. Were you really surprised that he still wanted to die after one pep talk with Dean?

    I agree with this, although I didn't see Sam as actively suicidal. He did start out believing he could survive the Trials and that Dean WAS suicidal so was less likely to survive them. The scene with Death in his mind was more like a patient with a terminal illness who no longer wants to do "everything" available. Sam just had to be more specific because he is now aware of what Dean will do and how far he will and CAN go to bring back the dead.

    So was having Cas ask people to pull his finger, or telling people that he had a burning sensation, brilliant characterization compared to a quick scene with toothpaste or a quick scene about a TV, one that I have seen almost no one mention outside of these reviews?

    As I said elsewhere, I really disliked comic relief Cas and Cas doesn't understand people. It was more tolerable for me in earlier seasons because Cas was new to living a human life and/or he had taken on Sam's mental illness, which never affected Sam's ability to cope, but wiped Cas out for no reason that I could see. My big issue is that Cas has had years to adapt to human life, including whatever time he spent with Daphne as a full human. Not knowing something about a culture is common. Not learning about that culture when you have lived in it for a while is not intelligent.

    Compared to seasons 6-8, I don't think that's the case. Sam, through Gadreel, is intrinsic to Metatron's plans. Dean's choices got a lot of this started and provided most of the drama of the last episode. Crowley is tied to Dean and Sam this season. And while the angel stuff is isolated, Cas still has some role with Sam and Dean, and with Metatron.

    I would argue that Gadreel is important to Metatron, Sam, not really. Other than having Sam unable/unwilling (we don't know yet) to eject Gad, Sam is not part of the equation. If Sam does eject Gad he becomes useless to the Metatron story. I would buy Crowley being tied to Sam and Dean, but again, we have Sam not being SAM so no relation to Crowley for Gadreel. I do think this will lead to a larger story for Cas. He definitely fits into the angel war and Metatron. Dean can be involved, especially if he wants revenge on Gadreel And Sam, well Sam is off being possessed or overwhelmed by Gad, or incorporated into a new being of Gam, or fighting off Gad and being unnecessary, or just being not here anymore.

    Sam was about to die. There was no time for a background check. If Ezekiel had left, then Sam would have immediately died. Another reason Dean was boxed in.

    I agree that initially Dean had no time to do anything but agree to Zeke, but Dean knows angels don't leave vessels lightly. We have never seen an angel leave a vessel. Dean looks less than competent by not immediately looking into how to evict an angel from a host. He didn't even have to tell Kevin about Sam. Angels are taking over people as of episode three(?). Have the spell ready in case it looks like Zeke wants to stick around or in case you need to evict an angel from a less than willing vessel or a vessel that is trying to kill you because it has an angel in it. Dean not being proactive to find ways to protect Sam if Zeke went off the rails seems not smart, once the dust has settled and Dean has time to ask questions.

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  56. My definition of a hero is someone who has flaws and makes mistakes but whose heart is mostly in the right place. Also a character with a definitive personality that you could recognize and make a decision about, and who has layers. Dean being a horndog was something the show had touched on before, but they did it with the added reveal that it was mostly an armor to hide the heap of pain he kept inside. That instantly made Dean one of my favorite multi-layered characters on TV. The person who wrote 9.08 this season however seemed to not have known anything about that.

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  57. Can I tell you something? Carver doesn't supervise the episodes, apparently... haha.

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  58. As much as I hope you are right, I am very skeptical.

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  59. I don't think it's what Dean necessarily believes, but it's what he feels like he's supposed to say, based on the lessons he was taught about men.


    Interesting observation.

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  60. That's obvious. I wonder how much control he actually has. I can't see him approving scripts by Bruckner and Ross-Lemming at least without heavy editing but obviously they slip through.

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  61. I'm not too surprised with that. I think Bob Singer likely does most of that, sadly. It's probably why the show has been so uneven since season 5 or 6.

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  62. I would guess he comes up with the long-range story plans, and I'd think he and Singer both choose who writes episodes. I sometimes feel like that duo get a free hand because of nepotism.

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  63. I assumed that taking the grace of an angel is like cannibalism, not impossible, but morally and ethically repugnant. Cas did it out of desperation. Anna wasn't desperate, she wasn't unhappy being human until she started hearing the angels and being tracked by them to be killed. She had no need to steal another angel's grace, hers was just in a tree in Kentucky. Why eat a person when you can bop down to Kentucky Fried and get your meal. Plus as a real human, Anna did not have an angel sword to use against an angel to cut out their grace.

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  64. I am too, but I do feel like at least something was built up to. My main complaint is that we should have seen more of Sam feeling happy or content. We just got a few glimpses.

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  65. I've certainly heard that Singer took charge either mid-season six or in season seven. I know SG's role was greatly reduced in season seven and Singer was bumped up.

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  66. "I agree that initially Dean had no time to do anything but agree to Zeke, but Dean knows angels don't leave vessels lightly. We have never seen an angel leave a vessel."

    Cas left Claire when Jimmy begged him to do so.

    I think Dean just wasn't even looking at possibilities, because he was sure Sam would die if Ezekiel was ejected from his body.

    I'm probably giving the writing too much credit, but the panic/blind hope/denial made sense for me.

    "I would argue that Gadreel is important to Metatron, Sam, not really. Other than having Sam unable/unwilling (we don't know yet) to eject Gad, Sam is not part of the equation."

    I see what you're saying. I just meant that by involving Sam and Dean with the angel falling, it at least means there's more of a chance of this directly impacting them. Seasons 6-8 had Sam and Dean mostly reacting to angels a few times a season, the rest of the time being put in their own storyline that, in some cases, like season 6, had nothing to do with the main plot.

    "As I said elsewhere, I really disliked comic relief Cas and Cas doesn't understand people. It was more tolerable for me in earlier seasons because Cas was new to living a human life and/or he had taken on Sam's mental illness, which never affected Sam's ability to cope, but wiped Cas out for no reason that I could see. My big issue is that Cas has had years to adapt to human life, including whatever time he spent with Daphne as a full human. Not knowing something about a culture is common. Not learning about that culture when you have lived in it for a while is not intelligent."



    I agree, but I feel like the writing hasn't gone to town saying Cas is an idiot to humanity. Cas spent a fair amount of time this season on his own, living as a human. We saw a joke about toothpaste and then a joke about a TV (and a lot of people have tried to turn on a TV when it's unplugged).


    The show has always gone to the well of having dumb jokes about Cas and humanity and how they don't mix, but I haven't seen a big push this season for that joke. Cas was able to live among humans, and live fairly well, for an extended period of time.

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  67. I forgot to say thanks for addressing my comments, especially since I don't know how to quote and I'm sure it just looked like a wall of text.


    I have enjoyed some of this season, which puts me in a distinct minority (I've also hated some of this season), but I do think these conversations need to be had. I'm glad you're posting about them and that you're willing to discuss them and not just send an article and then leave.

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  68. I think it's only fair when the only consistent things are misogyny, homophobia, and mental illness and codependency being romanticized. They deserve harshness when everything about the show is so awful and they don't even know the lore and characters.

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  69. I couldn't ignore the mental illness story with Cas because I saw no
    need for it. There wasn't any reason to make a joke of mental illness. I
    still don't understand why it was done.


    I actually saw that as being part of the unable to write for Sam issue. It had been said that Sam was hallucinating 24/7, seeing Lucifer and who knows what else, while acting as the sanest one of the brothers. Dean was spiraling into depression and Sam was soldiering on with NO visible effects from having his memories of Hell back. The Cas takes them on and suddenly we are permitted to see just how devastating those hallucinations were, only NOT FOR SAM. So Cas had a mental breakdown, because Cas is important and we need to see that he actually suffered for what he did to Sam, while Sam was again kicked to the curb in regard to POV.

    The problem I had with the "baby in a trenchcoat" scene was I saw no
    indication Dean viewed Cas as a friend at that point. He was incredibly
    hostile to Cas in that episode, and for much of that season. This was
    also the episode where they made a homophobic joke of the Dean/Cas
    relationship ("get out of my ass").


    I think they had competing interests here. There is a large group that wants the profound bond between Cas and Dean to be paramount. There is a group that believes that Dean puts Sam first whether he should or not. Cas broke Sam's wall and a Dean who puts Sam first SHOULDN'T have forgiven him, really ever. So the effect of breaking the wall ON SAM was minimized and the punishment for CAS for taking the hallucinations was maximized and then Dean forgave him and now they can be BFFs even though it means Dean is friends with someone who was more than willing to destroy Sam for his own ends. It was a way of trying to reestablish the status quo. I suspect they didn't intend to make fun of mental illness, they just are very insensitive.

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  70. Oh, I must have missed that article! *goes off to read*

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  71. You forgot to write about the disgusting treatment of the former porn star & the rapey way Dean approached them, an insult to Dean's character & of course an insult to all the women who watch this show. Wow. Such misogyny. Much distaste.

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  72. I respectfully disagree. IMO, most of those issues come from the weakest of the writing team (Ross-Lemming & Buckner, and Jenny Klein). As for the codependency, the blame does fall on the whole team, but it's hardly a problem unique to this season, or even this showrunner.

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  73. I don't think those things are consistent. There have been some strong women and some positive portrayals of GLBTQ people on the show.

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  74. But Cas wasn't living as a full human when he was with Daphne. He was still an angel and didn't eat, sleep or probably have to brush his teeth as pointed out by Dean in 817.
    I think people are just being too harsh about humanCas. His lack of knowledge is cited over and over again. He just turned on the tv when Muriel piped up. There wasn't even a couple of seconds that passed for Gods sakes.
    I think the whole crazyCas scenario was more his enormous guilt then being actually crazy. I think Dean's forgiveness helped snap him out of that mold.

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  75. meh, but they have a point, these boring angel dudes are 'supposed' to be the big bad, but really, why should we give a crap? I mean how are they terribly affecting our heroes? Cas, maybe, but angels have been trying to kill Cas pretty much since we met him and these are just more nameless faces to add to the pile of dead angels left in his wake. Like, if they want us to care and sweat over this the big bad should affect people we care about in an obvious way. This year they are just wasting time showing nameless angels I don't know and don't care about when they could be giving Sam actual lines, or maybe making Cas' storyline actually make sense. (Wasn't he sleeping homeless in the back of a gas station the last time we saw him? Do they know how much a man's suit actually costs?! My husband paid like 150 bucks for a sport coat! Did he kill somebody for it? Okay, whatever, guess he's an FBI agent now, no need to explain).

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  76. The bigger problem I had with Cas/April was the way it happened: Cas has a seemingly life altering moment, and then gets brutally murdered by the very same person who apparently lied and cheated her way into his pants, in someone else's body nevertheless. The other thing is the questionable consent of a person without a shelter or food, accepting the kindness of a stranger who invites them into her home and then proceeds to make sexual advances at him. If it was the other way around (man coming on to a woman), no one would hesitate to call it at least a case of dubious consent.

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  77. I applaud to this! And also means that you are really care about the show, the characters and plot. Thanks for speaking your mind!

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  78. Sam said that in S7 b/c the writers only wanted to focus on Dean in the episode.


    Sam has had regret and guilt since the first season. He seemed to have regrets in S6. He suddenly lost his "regrets" and "guilt" b/c it wasn't convenient to the plot/story they wanted to tell. Too often, Sam is written to fit the plot (i.e., that S7 trial episode or the first half of S8), rather than how he would actually behave given his past behavior, etc.

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  79. To put things in italics, I use side carrot i end side carrot and side carrot /i end side carrot. Like this (i) insert text to be italicized here (/i) using side carrots instead of parentheses. It also works with b for bold.

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  80. That was really skeevy pre-reveal; picking up homeless guys is just such a WTF thing to do, I mean, who does that? It really painted April on a bad light for me. But after we knew she wasn't who she said she was, it was like "Okayy?"

    Cause that reaper was the worst person ever. It (are reapers gendered?) used the body of a (hopefully) dead girl to trick a fallen angel with little knowledge of human interaction to have intercourse.

    What, the actual fuck.

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  81. " The Cas takes them on and suddenly we are permitted to see just how devastating those hallucinations were, only NOT FOR SAM. So Cas had a mental breakdown, because Cas is important and we need to see that he actually suffered for what he did to Sam, while Sam was again kicked to the curb in regard to POV."

    I do think we saw more lasting effects with Cas than with Sam, but I'm not sure if we saw the suffering part. Sam did suffer, whereas Cas was mostly written as saying wacky, kooky things.

    I feel like they did the whole story mostly as a reason to have Sam ill, and to bring back Mark Pelligrino, and the rest they made up as they went along.

    "So the effect of breaking the wall ON SAM was minimized and the punishment for CAS for taking the hallucinations was maximized and then Dean forgave him and now they can be BFFs even though it means Dean is friends with someone who was more than willing to destroy Sam for his own ends."



    That makes sense. Cas had to suffer so Dean could forgive him for what he did to Sam. I just don't think the writing was quite there. I think Dean forgave Cas once Cas stepped up to fight the Leviathans.


    The writing never should have had Cas do that to Sam. They seemed to have no plans to bring Cas back. I'm always going to be disappointed Sam has never had more of a reaction. Dean's reactions seemed more believable to me, but for the most part the whole thing was just ugly and unnecessary.

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  82. Yes, the whole Daphne thing was strange. I get the feeling he likely spent a lot of time healing people and having quiet time at home, and that was about it.

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  83. I have a feeling they aren't meant to be the big bad, and are more a symptom of the broken and destroyed angel "family," but I agree that they should make them more easy to invest in.

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  84. Thanks. I appreciate it.

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  85. Agreed! Great post!


    This was also my problem w/the Leviathans in S7, but at least SG had them say they wanted to personally eliminate the Winchesters. She attempted to connect the boys to the larger plot though it was still largely a failure. But I find the angel wars to be as boring and pointless as the Leviathans whose only goal seemed to be to eat people.


    This show only works - IMO - when the boys are directly impacted by the "big bad" of the season. I couldn't care less that angels are out killing each other. That's all these angels seem to do anyway so who cares? Sam and Dean don't seem to care, so why should I? As you said, instead of showing me a Naomi "knock off" in Bart and Malachai or whoever fighting, I would have rather seen Sam talking about all this missing time he noted in episode 8 or being more suspicious throughout the first 9 episodes, or a better human journey for Cas.


    I just don't care about the angel civil war! I never have.

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  86. Agree with every word, it's such a shame because it used to be sooo good, I feel like giving up with Season 9 tbh, but can't quite seem to do it (of course then i'm even more disappointed with the next episode!!) I hope to God that the rumors about Gabriel returning are true, cause boy do we need him to save this season!! I had such high hopes, thought we'd have a great new villain in Abaddon, but we've hardly seen her and it's so obvious that Mark Sheppard wasn't available as he's supposedly been locked in that room all season (do the writers really think we're that stupid???!!!! And as for killing off yet another beloved character?? Well i'm not sure i'll be here for season 10!

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  87. I agree with everything you said, and it make me so sad that any of it has to be said. I want so much more for these characters and for this show, and it's really frustrating when I feel like they could do so much better in the writers room. I think some of the writers have more promise and have delivered better than others, but over all the stories have felt recycled and the characterizations have felt so uneven as to seem like completly different people episode to episode. Everything about Cas and his stint with humanity was a damn farce and felt like a waste. Turning Cas into a bumbling idiot at every turn got old quick. I'm still hopeful for the second half of nine, fruitless as that may be. I'd really like to see the Supernatural that I binge-watched on Netflix over the Spring and Summer; transfixed by Sam, Dean, and Cas, and completly immersed in for weeks at a time.

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  88. I don't know what the reasons were but I was thrilled they just kept Crowley in the room. This character needed a rest, especially after last season.

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  89. Thanks for the comment. As I said to another commenter, the topic was extensively covered in Episode 9.08's Gripe Review. Check it out, everything from the insult to virgins and religious groups, to Dean acting like a horny frat boy, to the offensive racist references when talking about porn is discussed in detail.

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  90. Your welcome.


    To quote I use the tag blockquote surrounded by (<) and (>) then close it off with /blockquote html style.

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  91. Thanks, it's true. I really do care about the show. It takes a long time and much work to write these reviews, but I do it because it helps me not give up on the show.

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  92. "...there’s the ugly fact that Sam left Dean in Purgatory, and with the uneven way he has been written since Season 6, it’s a valid reservation to have about his character. "

    See, I agree with the rest of it. But this little bit (and, tbh, most of that section) rubs me the wrong way. It HAS become the Dean Show, and it HAS left Sam dangling and mostly guesswork, but the thing is, Sam thought Dean was dead. At that point in the series, Sam was barely functional; he'd just gotten out of a mental institution, and with his constant "Something's wrong with me", it's pretty clear he considered himself a burden to his brother. Dean 'died' standing next to an angel - it makes sense that he'd be in Heaven, happy and free. Sam wasn't willing to pull him out of paradise for the sake of an anchor-weight little brother. The biggest problem I have with the very beginning of S8 is that rather than write it in a way that makes sense (first episode, Sam struggling to move on after a mental break and meeting Amelia, etc.; second episode, Dean and Cas getting out of Purgatory; third episode, they meet up), they wrote Sam packing his bags and leaving a woman we didn't know to go somewhere for no reason (why go to Rufus's cabin instead of literally anywhere else in the continental States?) and coincidentally finding his brother, who appears with no explanation in the middle of the woods.

    If Sam knew Dean was in Purgatory, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But Sam 'knew' Dean was in Heaven, just like they 'knew' Bobby was in Heaven. I don't know that Sam would trick Dean into accepting an angel, because the difference between Sam and Dean is that Sam respects Dean as an autonomous being. Dean's never respected Sam the same way. (Dean's behavior slips into abusive patterns quite a bit, the way I see it.) Dean views Sam more as an extension of himself, or maybe as a toddler - when Sam screws up, it's Dean's job to fix it or punish him ("Pick a hemisphere", "We don't need him", etc.).

    There's also how Sam had exactly zero reason to trust Benny. The only thing he had to go on was Dean's "Oh, he helped me". That doesn't mean Benny's not killing people, that doesn't mean he deserves trust. And he's gone down the road of trusting monsters before, with Ruby, and he knows where it ends up. He doesn't want to see Dean hurt the way he was. And Dean had killed Amy Pond, who had killed to save her son (great double standard there, Dean-o), but now he's trusting a vampire.

    I don't think it's that Sam is unknowable. It's that Sam is unknowable except through Dean's point of view.

    Everything else is spot-on. I wanted to see Cas struggling with his newfound mortality (which is scary for EVERYONE the first time they realize they're mortal), and instead we got poop jokes.

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  93. Thanks for the comment. Everything you said here however proves my point at the beginning of the article, that at this point most fans know and analyse the characters better than the writer.

    I like your theory about Sam internalizing things and not saying anything to upset Dean. But just like another commenter's excellent point about Dean doing things due to lessons he was taught about men, it's just a fan observation unless the writers put it in their script. If they had implied it in some way, a line here, a gesture there, just to show us Sam isn't fooled and that he knows something is up but is keeping his silence for Dean's sake I would've rested my case.

    I covered your opinion about Castiel's stupid bug in this section of the Castiel write-up in the article:

    When Castiel turned human at the end of Season 8 I felt excited and thought a new chapter of his journey had begun. I wondered how he would deal with the new disaster he unintentionally caused, how it would affect him mentally, emotionally and psychologically. How would a human Castiel deal with the overwhelming emotions, temptations and struggles humans faced every day? Those were questions I mostly wanted answers to.

    Did we get any of those answers? I’d say no. Instead the writers filled his story with physical humor of the lowest level, like discovery of bodily functions. They also made a circus of him exploring the nature of sex and went so far they overstepped the line of decency into misogyny and rape jokes.



    Yes, the biggest tragedy isn't that Cas is used for comic relief but that the other aspects of him turning to human are all shoved aside.


    As for April, I already said that my problem wasn't them treating her without consideration to her meatsuit. The issue was with how they talked about her afterwards and how they focused on the sex and on objectifying her looks and body.

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  94. I agree with this as well. The compelling writing just isn't there anymore and they are ruining the characters by making them so one-dimensional. While I do agree that the brothers are the main thing driving the show, currently the codependency, specifically Dean's, has reached the absurd. He used to have a decent moral compass but now it seems anything goes where his brother's concerned. OTOH, Sam's continued desire to leave (even if it means dying) has me ALMOST wishing that he would, leave, that is. Especially when he was willing to just die, after Dean stopped him and convinced him to give up the trials, give up closing the gates of Hell forever, so that they could still be together (and they wonder where all the fanfic comes from).
    I don't exactly agree that Dean actually has a goal this season other than to have fans mad at him once again for "betraying" Sam with what he did. But they probably did that since they had already had him make a deal for Sam once. Even so, bottom line, Dean is still just written as just a grunt, protecting his precious "Sam", and comic relief.
    To me at least, they have once again seriously damaged the brothers' relationship while totally decimating Cas and Dean's relationship, probably because they want the brothers to only have the brothers, ever. No friends ever. After 9 seasons of great friends dying because of that ultimate goal, it's getting as old as Sam always being 'in peril'.
    I was really hoping that the new showrunner would turn this around but so far it really is seeming like the same song, different season.

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  95. I don't think it's that Sam is unknowable. It's that Sam is unknowable except through Dean's point of view.


    Perfectly stated.


    Once again your post shows I'm right about fans knowing the characters better than the writers. I like your analysis of Sam and the reasons you posted about why he left Dean in Purgatory. But you got to admit, none of that was shown or even hinted at in the show. Where did we see Sam's struggle with the loss of his brother, considering himself a burden, trying to come to terms with Dean's death? I agree that he didn't know Dean was in Purgatory but I could as well imagine him thinking, "Dean's dead, time to move on." Which is cold and makes me side-eye him. I'm not saying that could be true. I'm saying they give us so little insight about Sam that everything could be open season with him. At this point you could even paint him as a villain or a trickster and not be too far off the mark.


    You said it yourself, instead of giving us a strong Sam POV in the beginning of Season 8 by showing us how he fared after the Dick Roman incident, how he handled the responsibility of dealing with the rest of the Leviathans, how he got over the not-knowing of where Dean was, if he grieved or not... they put all the emphasis on a pointless fling he had with this woman nobody cared about. Heck they didn't even use their conversations to give us insight on how Sam felt about missing Dean. It was just her background, her grief, her issues, and whether or not Sam would leave her for Dean. A hugely wasted opportunity to really build on Sam's character and make us not doubt him with full conviction.

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  96. The thing that bothered me so much about Sam wanting to die was that in his post season 8 interviews Carver kept saying "the brothers chose each other," over and over.


    If that were true why would Sam want to die in Season 9? Wouldn't that be a blow to Dean who tried so hard to save him and who obviously has trouble living in a world without Sam. If Sam truly chose Dean at the end of Season 8 shouldn't he want to live for Dean, no matter how hard living would be?

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  97. One of the big disadvantages of seeing everything through Dean's POV is that we take his POV as gospel. Dean is hurt Sam didn't look for him, we get told Sam didn't look for him, not why or what Sam was going through. I think not trying to find a dead Dean makes complete sense. Not showing why Sam didn't look for Dean or why he thought Dean was dead or his immediate reaction after Dean disappeared leaves only with Dean's hurt that Sam never looked for him.

    I also agree on Benny. Lord knows, Ruby helped Sam before and after Dean died. She seemed to help Dean before he died as well, saving both their lives several times. In the end the fact that she helped them for her own reasons, didn't mean she was trustworthy, a lesson Sam learned the hard way. So not trusting a Benny he never met and couldn't see, wasn't awful, IMHO. Sam didn't go out and try to kill Benny because monsters always become what they are. He tried to find out if Benny wasn't killing and didn't move until a vampire was killing people in the town where Benny lived.

    I agree with all of this.

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  98. We get a lot of lines about how Sam considers himself a burden; it's just that most of those occur through the seasons, not immediately before and after choices that would only be made through that mindset.

    Sam represses; he's a very private character. The only time he brings up anything emotional is when he knows Dean needs to talk, like right after their dad died, or right after Dean got out of Hell. (Also, the whole 'no chick-flick moments' rule only seems to apply when it's Sam who wants to talk. Sam told Bobby he thought Dean was dead in season 8, and Bobby yelled at him, "That's the kind of agreement that's a non-agreement!"

    Sam has, always and forever, felt guilty. He explicitly said in S8, "I remember thinking I could never go on a journey like that, because I'm not clean." The thing about not feeling clean is that you never feel like you're worth any effort. A lot of the feeling-like-a-burden is extrapolation from lines like, "I'm a freak." "I'm angry, all the time." "There's something wrong with me." "I'm part-demon!" "If I die, I stay dead. nobody else can get hurt because of me." "A lot of people got it worse," while Lucifer was rattling around in his skull. All the guilt trips Dean lays, all the times Dean's told Sam he's not good enough (both explicitly and implicitly). The way he looked surprised when Amelia made him a birthday cake. Even the way he fought when he and Dean went to save Nameless Hunter One and Two in the beginning of S8 - even the demons know he's not doing his best to survive. Given the history, even just in-show, of everything that's gone wrong, how can he see himself as anything but a cursed burden? How can he see himself as anything but the monstrous little brother who almost destroyed the world?

    I can't see Sam thinking, "Dean's dead, time to move on," post-resouling. I can see him thinking, "Dean's dead. I shouldn't bring him back. Dean bringing me back started the Apocalypse, and he's happy in Heaven anyway."

    I feel like Amelia was supposed to be Sam's foil, the woman who can say what he's feeling (because women are just better at emotions lulz), but they couldn't write her well enough to make that work. Instead we got a woman nobody cared for/knew anything about with little purpose to the plot.

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  99. First I don't think anyone can live solely for another person and everyone has a right to say that it's time to stop fighting death. I think Sam DID want to live. If he hadn't his vision of Dean telling him to fight would never have happened. In the end, Sam has gone through resurrections and seen the horrible fallout of them. Being brought back the first time eventually led to the Apocalypse and hundreds of years of torture for him. Sam didn't want to die, but he was unafraid to die and willing to accept that as long as he couldn't be brought back and hurt anyone again. There is a big difference.

    Frankly, one reviewer stated at the beginning of the series that not closing the Gates of Hell was the douchiest thing they have ever done, and I agree. The brotherhood has been wonderful, but both of them being heroes and saving people was the other backbone of the series. Now, they put themselves above saving people and Dean's saving Sam has put a real crimp in the brotherhood, if for no other reason than Sam is no longer there to be Dean's brother currently. They took the worst of both worlds with this move and it's really sad for me.

    In the end, Sam chose to do what Dean wanted by stopping the trials only to be dying having failed at his task and for no good reason. Stopping the trials DIDN'T save Sam's life, it just made his death worthless, instead of worthwhile.

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  100. In the end, Sam chose to do what Dean wanted by stopping the trials only to be dying having failed at his task and for no good reason. Stopping the trials DIDN'T save Sam's life, it just made his death worthless, instead of worthwhile.


    Agree 100%. Yes not closing the gates of hell was putting themselves above their duty, but I was willing to take that if they did something with it in Season 9 . They could've made Sam and Dean guilt ridden over what they did. They chose each other and lived but they condemned humanity to and eternity with demons. The writers could have explored that. Could have had Crowley remind them of that. Could have made the brothers question their blinded devotion toward each other and make them take steps to get closerwithout losing sight of their responsibilities as saviors of humanity.


    Instead we got more suicidal Sam, a scheming Dean who took his brother's choice away, then no Sam at all with Dean being pushed into a tighter and tighter corner with no redeeming aspect and nothing but pure misery behind it.

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  101. I completelty agree about the attatchment to the arc this year. I couldn't care less about it. I don't care that the Angels are fighting yet again (I don't even know why they are fighting to be honest), I don't care that Abaddon and Crowley don't like each other. The only feeling I have to any arc this year is that I do not like Sam being possessed. I want Sam to be Sam and not have anything wrong with him for a change. It's getting tired at this point. At the end of the day I would probably still watch this show if all the episodes just consisted of Sam and Dean doing their laundry because I've come to care about the characters, but damn I miss this show being incredible.

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  102. I agree. Robbie Thompson seems like he has at least taken the time to watch some of the earlier seasons. I can't recall any of Berens' episodes though.

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  103. I really agree w/your comment here even though I absolutely HATED the way Sam was written in the first half of S8. But you're right . . . . the story we were told was that Sam thought Dean was dead. Now, did that really make sense given everything Sam has seen in his life? I don't think so. Did it make sense that Sam determined this w/o searching for Dean at all or even seeing a dead body? Heck no! But that was the extremely silly and OOC story they chose to tell for Sam. And as usual, we got ZERO POV from Sam, so most of the audience saw Sam as OOC, heartless, selfish, uncaring, or not loving Dean as much as Dean loves him. Take your pick.


    I know Carver wanted to show that Sam had matured and accepted his brother's death. I actually have NO problem w/that story. That is a fine story to tell. My problem is there was no reason Carver couldn't have told that story AND shown Sam doing what makes sense given the scenario: look for Dean.


    Dean was not shot. Dean did not drop dead. Dean, literally, disappeared (along w/Cas) right before Sam's eyes. They both have disappeared before WITHOUT being dead so I needed Sam to investigate just a bit before determining Dean was dead. When S7 ended, Sam demanded that Crowley tell him what happened to Dean, which indicated that Sam didn't think Dean was dead. Carver actually wanted the audience to believe that in the span of 60 seconds, Sam decided Dean was dead and just went on w/his life. I'm sorry, but that was a horrible story that made NO sense.


    Carver's tale of maturity would have more sense if we had seen Sam becoming obsessed w/finding Dean or about to do something crazy to get info on Dean, and then realizing he was going too far and ending the search. Or show Sam searching for Dean, getting bad intel that Dean was dead, and then moving on. What could Sam really do if he thought Dean was dead? But to show him not searching or investigating at all was just plain bad, lazy, OOC storytelling, IMO.


    And I hear you about Benny, but again, w/o giving Sam a POV, the audience has nothing but Sam's past behavior to judge his current actions. We've seen Sam trust monsters before (Lenora, Jack, his HS friend (Amy?)), so his irrational hatred of Benny never made much sense to me. It didn't help that Sam was given NO POV - as usual - so the audience could be allowed to understand his feelings a bit. Again, I feel the story was poorly written. And Dean knowing how his brother gives monsters the benefit of the doubt had no real reason to lie about Benny and hide his friendship w/the Benny.


    I liked Benny and Ty, but the character was strictly used to cause unnecessary, forced conflict btw the brothers. Sam had no real reason - in my mind - to hate Benny as much as he seemed too, and Dean had no real reason to hide Benny. It was just a colossal mess. That said, I do believe you have the right idea of how we were supposed to see Sam's actions w/r/t Benny.

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  104. "Not showing why Sam didn't look for Dean or why he thought Dean was dead or his immediate reaction after Dean disappeared leaves only with Dean's hurt that Sam never looked for him."


    - This is the main problem w/Sam. When he does make a controversial decision (i.e., not look for Dean, drink demon blood, etc), the audience is given very little insight into why he did it. We just have to come up w/our own reasons for stuff. It is never very clearly laid out like w/Dean. The writers take the time to make sure the audience understands Dean's POV and why he did something like in the S9 premiere, but that same care is not taken w/Sam! It's ridiculous!

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  105. The writing for Sam is pretty bad. I know you post on IMDb, and almost all the posters there just take the script at face value, which is why he is universally hated on that board except for the very rare Sam fan. Sam is not always painted in the best light, and it doesn't help that he is given very little POV. You have to like Sam and see past the writing flaws and remember who Sam is.


    He is a guy who loves his brother and would sacrifice for Dean just as much as Dean would sacrifice for him. He said it in both AHBL2 and the S6 finale. He is not a selfish jerk who doesn't love Dean. I think the writing did Sam a HUGE disservice last year, but I saw it as the OOC crap (IMO) it was. We all know Sam would have looked for Dean. Heck, even Carver admitted that Sam would look; he just wanted to tell his crap story of "Sam not looking," which he didn't even do. "I ran" and "my world imploded" do not make a story! Why did Sam think Dean was dead? That's the story!

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  106. See, this is why I've been saying Sam needs a friend. I agree w/your analysis of Sam's thoughts, but I hate that we got nothing until the episode before the season finale. If Sam had confided in Kevin or anyone some of his fears earlier on, I think it would have been better storytelling. But having Sam say nothing makes it seem like Sam is stupid. His throat was slit, or at least he awakened w/a load of blood on his collar. Was he not concerned? I agree that he wouldn't confess to Dean b/c of his fear of Dean seeing him as freak, but what about Kevin? Or Sam's made up friend Chris? Haha! Someone?


    Sam desperately needs someone to talk to about things, but he has no one so his POV is even more lost or reserved until the last few minutes of one episode. It's annoying.

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  107. The sad thing about this season is the writers ultimately lost my trust. I was willing to forgive Sera Gamble various missteps and largely enjoyed season 6-7. Season 8 was a breath of fresh air but I already felt that there was a underlying tone that leaned HEAVILY towards Sam.
    The strength this show had up until season 5 was keeping the balance between Sam and Deans importantce on the storyline. Neither was ever fully guilty or fully innocent and had an equally major part to play.

    But from season 8 on Dean felt more like Sams sidekick and driver.
    Dean literally became the 'driving' element, because he was allowed to drive Sam from point A to point B. And act if our glorious Sam was in a predicament.
    This show has ultimately become the 'Sam gets wronged by Dean and saves the day' show.

    Up to this day I remember the line that made me dislike Sam, because while Dean carries his guilt with him he doesen't let it eat him up, it makes him who he is. Sam on the other hand decided to wash himself clean of any his 'I don't feel sorry anymore' line gutted me and pushed me from the Sam/Dean camp into a 'you're both idiots' one.
    The writers seem to be obsessed with making Dean seem incompetent. He tries to take a punch, is thrown aside and Gadreel/Sam does the rest and finishes the MOTW off.

    Now, I love both Sam and Dean, I just don't agree with them and some directions they're taken in feel awfully forced to make one look better than the other.

    The "Sam is our saviour" theme has been present since he took the trials and ever since he's been sweet talked. Characters constantly praise Sam and he's the constant topic. At one point there's a Sam overload.
    Dean seems to have become Robin to Sams Batman.
    Now to Castiel who, despite his awfully deeds in season 7, still like a lot. Why ? Because he's still making up for what he did, or at least tries to.

    And this is where I seriously get angry. "No we can't use him that often, he's a deus ex machina" "We had to kill him off, he was too powerfull" "you can't have every episode end by angelic powers" were all statements made by writers and showrunners and look at this show now !
    Gadreel at least makes things easier each episode and hell am I sick of it, not because of what he does but because of the excuse being debunked.
    Samnatural has lost me to a point I only watch it because it airs after the Originals, SPN used ot be my favourite when the dynamics between Sam and Dean were still equal. They're not anymore tough


    and btw: the version of Death is Sams head feeling 'honoured' about getting to reap Sam speaks a lot about how Sam feels about himself.


    Holier than thou,


    so let us all praise ye glorious warrion who canneth be wronged by his evil and despicable followers anymore. Shall Sam become ye new god and haveth him smite all ye who have wronged him.
    Samen

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  108. Berens wrote 9.06, with human Cas working at the gas station. I felt he did a good job with Cas' characterization, especially after the piece of crap 9.03 was.

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  109. God you are so right season 8 was a waste of time they was all big on closing the gates of hell and all save the world crap and then nothing and more pain come on.

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  110. I think the whole benny thing really pissed me off because I hate him from day one and still to this day do not give a rats ass about him. I give you 2 reasons why Sam should hate benny ok reason 1 Ruby and Amy that's it that's all that needs to be said about that reason 2 So the Dean saying you should like him or else crap did not work for me ok please he is a VAMPIRE plane and simple that's it and I was thinking this is not buffy or twilight were all the vamps are pussy's. We get never told ever if he really killed anyone no nothing we are just going to have to trust him that did and will not work with me just like now with Dean trusting an angel to save Sam that did not work too. God I am thinking that the Fans are getting smarter and the writers are getting dumber don't you think?

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  111. I agree with you Justin, not on the banning. Folks here are very fair. I agree that I disagreed with a lot of the review. I for one loved last season and I'm really liking this season. I wish there was less angel/demon crap and more monster of the week but other than that, I'm very happy with the show. Never understood those that do nothing but complain.. why are you still watching?

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  112. I really wish someone sends this to tptb because this describes how 85% of the Supernatural fandom is feeling about this season so far.

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  113. Excellent article, and yes this needs to be seen by tptb. Just one thing to say for now, and that is even though there is not much Sam exactly this season - there is a LOT of someone who is wearing Sam's meatsuit and he's an angel, with powers and is very central and is in cahoots with Metatron, and so if Dean fans complain that this season is still too All About Sam then if they are like me what they technically mean is it's too much All About Whoever Jared is playing. I mean, when Dean fans ask for Demon!Dean or Angel!Dean (and Angel!Dean was and still is a major wishlist item in the Dean fandom and the fact he was overlooked for this in favour of Sam - who has already had every other storyline under the sun - has caused a lot of bitterness) then it's with the understanding that it's someone else that Jensen is playing, and not technically Dean..however we then get the satisfaction of seeing others like Sam or Castiel worrying about Dean and fighting to save HIM for a change. The campaign for Dean to have a storyline has different levels, it's not JUST about having a storyline - it's also about giving Jensen the opportunity to shine and have something different to play with for a change, which considering his talent, should really help the show..and also to give the other characters like Sam and Castiel the chance to show how much they care about Dean and have THEM worry, discuss and focus their attention on Dean, in the same way he has towards them for the last 3-4 years (well 8-9 for Sam).

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  114. Instead we got more suicidal Sam, a scheming Dean who took his brother's choice away, then no Sam at all with Dean being pushed into a tighter and tighter corner with no redeeming aspect and nothing but pure misery behind it.


    Doesn't this sort of suggest that they are showing one of the consequences of not doing the trials?


    Of course that's just a personal one, not one involving letting demons run amok, but I think it's showing that they aren't necessarily saying the choice was a noble one.

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  115. Can we also petition for Raelle Tucker to return, just a thought.

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  116. I agree with a lot of the article, but I don't think 85% of the SPN fandom agrees on anything. I'd say only 50% even agree the name is Supernatural.

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  117. Dean's prowess in episodes tends to depend on who is writing said episode. There have been multiple episodes in recent seasons where Dean has to do everything while Sam is unconscious/tied up.

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  118. I don't think Dean's written as a grunt. They've gone out of their way, especially by this show's standards, to show why Dean made the decision he made about Sam, and how it was essentially drilled into his head from his youngest years. That's one of the reasons the flashback episode was powerful, for me anyway. I think they're trying to show the damage done when codependency makes Dean make these choices.


    I've seen the show try to destroy the Dean/Cas relationship (season 6, season 7) and diminish Dean for "save Sam" stories (season 6, season 7). I haven't seen that this season.


    The show's had tons of problems this season, and I'm dreading how they will be addressed in the second half, but Dean's actions are the main ones that have rung true for me.

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  119. I agree that they need to maybe have a role reversal, although Sam HAS had POV, it's just not the type of POV we're discussing now. He had it especially at the start of season 8 with Amelia, when all we heard was his view of things - from his wanting to quit hunting, his reasons for not looking for Dean along with the Amelia flashbacks that incidently had more screentime than the Purgatory flashbacks, to his resentment of Dean's friendship with Benny..and it was Sam's POV that was validated by the writers - it was made clear that Sam's feelings on the matter were right and more worthy. We were meant to sympathise with Sam and take his side. They even threw Charlie in to take Sam's side over Dean. It just so happened that a large percent of the audience either disagreed or chose to ignore it. Then even with the Trials, we were given Sam's POV on why he felt he ought to be the one to complete them with that token speech about how Dean wasn't a grunt and how Sam could see the light or something - and we again the writers tried to have us agree with that - and again a lot of us just didn't buy it. This is the problem - it's not so much that Sam has no POV, it's more that it's the wrong kind...when Dean has POV it's nearly always his POV of others, primarily Sam but also Castiel and all the other characters that befriend Dean. It's what makes Dean the "narrator". Whenever Sam has POV it's mainly of himself, his interests and what he wants over Dean and others, and it's not exactly making him likeable - especially when the everyone else revolves around him too, he then becomes The Writers Pet which is what happened to the extreme last season. If we were to have a proper role reversal and for Sam to have more POV, then it needs to be Sam's POV of Dean - and his feelings about Dean, and others too - lets have Sam be the "narrator" instead.

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  120. I'm really confused about what rape jokes you are referring to.

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  121. " I don't know that Sam would trick Dean into accepting an angel, because
    the difference between Sam and Dean is that Sam respects Dean as an
    autonomous being. Dean's never respected Sam the same way. (Dean's
    behavior slips into abusive patterns quite a bit, the way I see it.)
    Dean views Sam more as an extension of himself, or maybe as a toddler -
    when Sam screws up, it's Dean's job to fix it or punish him ("Pick a
    hemisphere", "We don't need him", etc.)."

    Wow. You are so right about that. And about Cas too. Cas being human was a golden opportunity that was gleefully wasted. So much seems to be wasted so far this season. I had been feeling that this season is so different from the others in a very bad way. I can only hope this trend doesn't continue, I am too in love with the characters to leave them now. :(

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  122. I didn't see Dean as saying, 'You should like Benny or else." I honestly don't think Dean wanted to talk about Benny at all. Benny helped him survive Purgatory so he let Benny ride him out. Dean liked Benny and just wanted to leave him alone. We never learn if Dean talked to Sam about how he met Benny, but I just don't think the show spent any time on WHY Sam was having such a bad reaction to Benny who really wasn't doing anything to anyone. it was just weird.

    The Sam I know sees monsters in shades of grey. He's never been one to condemn a creature simply b/c it was a creature. All Sam knew about Benny was that he was vampire. That's no reason, IMO, for Sam to hate him. He hated Benny upon meeting him, and that just didn't ring true to me.

    I know many assumed Sam was likening Benny to Ruby, but it didn't help that Benny wasn't manipulating Dean or involving himself in Dean's life like Ruby did w/Sam. There was no parallel to the Ruby/Sam situation for me. Benny was literally on his own and minding his own business for the most part. I don't even think the writers knew why Sam hated Benny, and that lack of coherency came across in the scripts, IMO.

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  123. I agree with E.V.E.R.Y. word. Wait, no, there are more than one really good written SPN Fanfic out there. But that's it.

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  124. Sadly Raelle Trucker left when Kripke decided to introduce the Angel storyline in S4. She did not like that Angel mythology that Kripke decided to bring in and so left after S3.

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  125. Everything you have mentioned here is absolutely true. The writers need to read this review. It looks like SPN has completely lost the very essence that made me fall inl ove with this show. Totally agree with the way they have treated Sam/Cas and Dean this season.

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  126. Bless this post!

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  127. I know Sam is such a terrible person and having a pov that is selfish and not the humble pov that he should have . And having a angel put inside him without proper consent must make him even more horrible and lord knows he will be even more selfish for reacting not in the right way over his own body .


    Dean on the other hand is selfless it makes your heart hurt for the actions he is forced into by selfish Sam and of course who's pov is never about himself. I do not regard someone being Sam as Sam so therefore his presence as been at the centre of things , so we do not agree on that. And less likely as Dean will be at the centre of the fallout and not the person that it was done to and who's body was used to kill Kevin. And becauseapparently Sam's pov is selfish I will apologize beforehand on Sam's behalf for his reaction and feelings on Gadreel using his body and then using it to kill Kevin towards Dean .

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  128. I have to say you have put into words my problem with SPN since well, season six. Me and my sister were honestly upset over the April incident and how they (in our opinions) slandered Castiel as a human. One of our main arguments had to do with how he was treated one, sexually. Taking into consideration he is a billion year old angel who once stated "I am completely indifferent to sexual orientation" and then the moment he is human the breast of women make him dumbfounded and he begins to date women left and right? The attraction to a female's breast comes from society mainly and because he is an angel, despite his new human status, his libido would be nada and unimportant to express unless it herald some major change in his character (which it didn't). Second, they butchered his purpose as you stated and left out the important details of Dean and Castiel's relationship which me and my sister were excited to see come to a head, what with all the lies and back stabbing, and yet by this season its as if none of it happened?



    I could go on for hours but your review is so wonderfully thought out I have no need too, I thank you for your wonderful insight, which shines light onto SPN's faults, even if others don't want to.

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  129. teamwinchestergirl23 December 2013 at 09:38

    The writers should see/read all earlier episodes before writing a new one. So they don't mess up the canon storyline!

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  130. Sam is not universally hated on the IMDb boards.

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  131. I thought she left earlier than that, according to her imdb she left after season 2.

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  132. But how many vessels were raped? At least with Ruby we knew the girl wasn't there and I think it was Sera Gamble who made sure we did.
    Also, not everything is about shipping - which is what you were implying - and the fandom does not hate women the way the writers want everybody to believe so they can kill them off and blame it on us.

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  133. No need to get your knickers in a twist, I am not saying Sam is a terrible person I am saying that the way the writers favour his feelings and allow everyone to revolve around him makes him less likeable - it turns him into the Writers Pet and that kind of favouritism is doing the character a disservice.

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  134. Thank you V, sometimes things have to be said even if some fans don't like to hear it.

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  135. I used to think that too but I recently read somewhere that she left because she was not ok with angel mythology. I was wanting to find out why she left since I felt she did a very good job for the show

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  136. 85% really? I assume you only mean the ones that are online on boards like this one?

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  137. um Sam didnt want to die he just didnt want anyone to do anything stupid or get hurt in order to save Sam. The premier was pretty clear unless you're a bias Dean fan.

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  138. ultimately Dean dicided that Sam shouldnt close the gates because he didnt want Sam to die (co-dependency issues) Sam dicided to not close the gates because he didnt want to let Dean down again.
    IMO Sam made the wrong choice in listening to Dean, he should have completed the trials because it was the right thing to do and the writers should have allowed it and thought up another way of saving Sam.

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  139. you basically just highlighted how poorly written Sam has been for the past few years, being a plot device has done him no favours.

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  140. The problem was that the writing didnt focus on why Sam was right not to trust Benny because of the past, it didnt point out the hipocracy from Dean which it should have, all it did was paint another Dean is always right Sam is always wrong scenario. I dint even need to see the episodes last season to know that Benny would be a saint and Dean would be right just as I didnt need to see the godawful 'Geeks and Freak' episode to know that Sam would be wrong and Dean would be right. This season again the writing has basically set up another Dean is justified for his actions scenario but Sam wont be justified for his.

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  141. I can only assume the writers wanted to set up another Saint Dean can do no wrong and Sam the bad wrong brother scenario. These writers truely hate Sam thats for sure.

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  142. amazingly enough we saw even less of Dean when Sam was in the cage but everyone believed he was devestated and couldnt go on hunting without Sam there so he just had to stay in the normal life he didnt really want but only went into because he promised Sam, all with a single line and a sad look.

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  143. Makes him less likeable to you b/c I have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The writers favor Sam's feelings? That's news to me. Everyone revolves around Sam? Hmm . . . . that is also news to me.

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  144. Oh, yes, b/c you speak the truth for everyone!

    Man, get over yourself. You're stating your opinion, which is fine, but don't presume everyone feels that way!

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  145. Sam gets a good amount of hate on any board to be honest even the ones that Dean fans claim to be Sam fan sights are usually flooded with haters.

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  146. It's widely known that the online community of any show is a negligible FRACTION of any show. So, no, 85% of the audience does NOT feel this way. The show's ratings keep rising. Most of the watching audience does not analyze to the level we do. They watch it and let it go.

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  147. thing is all it would take is for them to add a line in about how the human soul of the vessel has already moved on which is what they did with Ruby, they basically brought a dead girls body back to life but left her souland her mind gone.

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  148. I disliked last season so much that this year has been a blessing for me. At least this year I am not wishing that Sam would just walk off the earth, he was like a spoiled kid last year, I want my way or I will throw myself on the floor and have a tantrum. He was so out of character that I did not even know who this guy was.

    I agree with lots of your comments, the writers are running all over the place without any kind of plan. I lay most of this at the feet of the show runner and I had such high hopes for Carver. Still this year, for me, is so much better than last that I am willing to over look a lot.

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  149. just a thought on that vessel subjet how cool would it be to do a 360 with the boys and suddenly have Sam the saviour of mankind and Dean as Abaddons new vessel? Jensen gets to play someone other than Dean and gets to play a dark character, Sam gets to be Sam the hero and not damsel in distress and ultimately save Dean from hells clutches. Sam would get the POV and have to work with the likes of Cas, Jody and the other good guys while Abaddon/Dean works with Crowley and other demons. I think that would give Dean the myth arc and Sam the POV, basically just switch the rolls up but add a twist or two.

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  150. Gabriel is not returning accoding to SPN insiders, it was just a rumour. That being said its possible they just said that because they didnt want fans to know about it. SPN fans have quite often guessed whats going to happen before it happens on screen.

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  151. interesting since his main and arguably only point or reference when it comes to e a human is Dean himself unless you count pornos.

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  152. I agree that the writing was definitely the problem.

    I didn't really have an opinion on what would happen to Benny (i.e., would he be good or bad). I guess I knew from the start he was going to be good, and it was pretty much confirmed by his back story episode. So, we knew he spent quite some time not biting humans before he was sent to Purgatory.

    The problem for me was the show never bothered to explain Sam's POV. As I said below, I am used to Sam giving monsters the benefit of the doubt, but in this instance, he just seemed to automatically hate Benny. Why? It was never really clear. Other than Benny being a vampire, Sam had no other reason to distrust him. It was not the same - for me - as Ruby b/c she was a demon, and they are inherently untrustworthy, IMO. Sam had heard of non-human blood drinking vamps before so why was Benny such a shock?

    And Dean? What was up w/him? Why wouldn't he just tell Sam all about Benny? It's not like Sam would still want to kill Benny (if Sam were being written in character that is) upon learning that Benny doesn't survive off human blood or doesn't bite people to survive. But Dean says nothing, which was strange. Sam acts strangely and OOC. For what? All b/c Carver wanted some forced tension btw them. What purpose did it serve? How did that serve the story?

    Ugh . . . last year was such a disaster, IMO.

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  153. Yeah . . . . the writing made no sense, and both Dean and Sam were written OOC, in my opinion w/r/t Benny. It was all so silly.

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  154. Exactly! EOMS's montage served Dean well. We saw how Dean was truly living. Plus, lines like, "I did everything I could to bust you out. I read books. I looked up spells" or whatever he said were sufficient to show that Dean tried. In Dean's case, it would have made more sense for him to give up b/c Sam was literally locked in Lucifer's cage than it was for Sam to not look when Dean disappeared.

    Ugh . . . the lopsided writing bugs me to no end. And now Carver wants to remove the co-dependency so I'll never get to see Sam try and save Dean from something! Sera left S7 in a good place for that, and Carver crapped all over it! He is, by far, the worst showrunner, IMO.

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  155. Elizabeth-Jane Martin23 December 2013 at 13:42

    This is what I thought! There had to have been a reason why j2 spent so much time prior to the season explaining why the season itself was going to be the best one. They're not stupid enough to assume that the antics thus far played are ones we all would take well too, and just the fact that they really hammered it homes makes me think they knew how we wouldn't take well to the beginning half. Again, conjecture. In any case, flipping it on its head and giving the characters both a new perspective and a new reason is something I'm really hoping they do simply because it leaves the door open for them to understand each other, and their reasons for doing what they've done in the past. That and now that Kevin is, unfortunately, passed on, we have to look at the characters objectively because they're going to be trying to find info now through angels and demons and through ways they've simply had kevin to do before.

    I don't think the writing crew is stupid. I just think we haven't seen the full front of the season yet and I really honestly can't wait to find out. If I'm wrong, oh well. The shows been running 9 years and I'm pretty sure it needs to end at some point. But if something this drastic does happen, we could be in for one of the best seasons yet. Or at least the set up for season 10 being the best season yet just like season 4 had set up for, in my opinion, the best season of the series which was 5.

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  156. Hahaha . . . yes he is. So is Jared. That's why I stopped posting there years ago. And I was just recently perusing those boards, and nothing's changed. The Jared/Sam hate is still rampant. You have a few Sam fans (i.e., possibly 5), but that's it

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  157. I agree I always know what Dean will do at any given time, he's pretty preictable which for me makes him somewhat boring. Whereas with Sam he constanly changes according to what the plot needs from him and hence is somehat unpredictable. Then again Sam usually isnt all Sam all the time.

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  158. Elizabeth-Jane Martin23 December 2013 at 13:54

    I'm not suggesting everything is about shipping. I fear that people have chosen to scream bloody murder over one specific character without looking at the bigger picture. In the case of April, as fore-mentioned, both the Winchesters and Cas are only seeing her entity as a reaper. They did not know April they human nor would they want to because if they did, that guilt would be with them. I mean,it was tasteless to make jokes. I'm not suggesting otherwise in the least, but Sam and Dean have killed many vessels who were once simply human. They've learned to not look back on it, or to see it as collateral damage whereas it was necessary for the greater good.

    And Cas, when speaking of April, never spoke of April directly as a person. He was speaking completely of the Reaper and in doing so made some comments that were a little tasteless but also a little contrary cause the reaper did try to kill him and have no qualms against spending her time.

    The reason I specified this was about shipping wars was because these kind of antics only ever seem to be singled out when deancas gets tossed back into the noncanon category. The fandom doesn't hate women, at least not anymore and thats great, but if April's character had been a guy, do you think that male character would have lived either? And do you think it would have gotten half the backlash? I don't think so simply because of the fact that it would have reaffirmed Castiel's bisexuality and the fandom would be excited about that fact, enough to ignore the male character who was killed off as every other demon thats been tossed out like the vessel meant nothing.

    I think the best comparison I could give to how the Winchesters work would be in season 4 during the rising of the witnesses. When they brought Meg, the girl and the human back and she was angry, Dean and Sam looked worse for wear. Extremely sorry and apologetic because they only spoke with the real Meg once and it was not enough to garner any feelings towards. But up until that point, there hadn't been really any remorse or sorrow for the fact they hadn't tried to exorcise the demon first. They have to be faced with that collateral damage, otherwise they compartmentalize it and put it somewhere where it won't hurt them. Somewhere deep so they can keep on doing what they believe is the right thing. If they didn't, those two characters would be a hundred times the wrecks by now that they are.

    But hey, this isn't about the reasons why the feel nothing. It's about the tastelessness of the jokes, which is something I can't really justify other than specifying they never made jokes about April the human, but the reaper who tried to kill Cas.

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  159. That's interesting, although I'd like to know what she did during season 3 since she's not listed. Maybe she was just a producer. to be honest, I wouldn't mind going away from the angel mythology either, but keep Castiel. Purgatory was such a great opportunity to open up a new mytharc and go back to monsters and urban legends. If we had Raelle Tucker back and that new direction then I would be very happy.

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  160. I agree with you. I think it is absolutely possible to move away from the angel mythology without eliminating Castiel. Purgatory was a lost opportunity.I had expected some kind of a story arc for Dean involving purgatory. I was disappointed there. I for once want to see a story arc around Dean where Dean is central to the plot. Also as a Cas fan I do not want to see him attacked/tortured/ manipulated or used for comic relief anymore. I am tired of seeing him as the butt of slapstick comedy. As far as Sam is concerned I miss Sam so much this season. Some of the older writers if they came back would really help. Raelle, also John Shiban..and lastly Ben Edlund leaving post S8 was another blow to the already weakening writing team

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  161. Yes, Sam, sadly, has wanted a life for himself, and he has the SHEER AUDACITY to talk about what he wants.

    Since season one Sam has been clear that he wants a life out of hunting, not confronting the things that go bump in the night. He wants a college degree and a home that he doesn't work out of. Dean, OTOH, has always been clear that he wants Sam on the road, by Dean's side, no more stupid book learning (unless it involves hunt related mythology). It started as saving people, hunting things and settled at driving down crazy street with my brother. And or NINE YEARS, which dream has been realized? Why that selfless martyr Dean the perfect and good. And who has never had his dream onscreen? Why that selfish horrible (yes you DID make it clear that you think Sam is a bad person) Sam. I mean how selfish is he to continue to live the life Dean has proscribed and yet DARE to actually want something different from his perfect, wonderful brother who, for all that he loves him and he does love Sam, has never lifted a finger to get Sam any part of the life Sam wants and needs.

    I think your definition of selfish is interesting in that you label the guy who lives the life he doesn't want because it makes his brother happy is the selfish one and the one who is living EXACTLY the life he wants is labeled selfless. Yes, part of it is circumstances, but Sam didn't have to stay with Dean when Dean went all "let's close the Gates of Hell". Sam could have said no, but he tried to close the GOH. Sam could have said "Dude, really?" When Dean went all "Don't close the Gates of Hell because you'll die" because it was clear that dying didn't frighten Sam. Instead he did what Dean wanted giving up his dream of being purified (and yes, how DARE Sam want anything that Dean hasn't SPECIFICALLY ordered Sam to want). How DARE Sam be a human being instead of a puppet Dean can make dance to his tune?

    And, for the record, my knickers are just fine, thank you very much.

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  162. I'll give them a pass on Man's Best Friend With Benefits and let them skip the sexy times with April and later Suzy, Season Seven Time For A Wedding, and a few other stand alones that I wouldn't force on anyone.

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  163. I would like that. However I would not look forward to having to wade through all the Savior Sam the Super Special Snowflake posts. Plus, I'm fairly certain we would have lots of scenes of Dean fighting to get out of Abaddon and how he feels about not being in control and when he finally gets back many scenes about how Sam doesn't understand how HARD it was to have his body used to kill someone. Naw, if Dean gets possessed, it will be Cas to the rescue, because giving Sam a POV is something the writers have no interest in. Sadly, I have read that Jensen says he doesn't want Dean to be possessed, although the writers actually over rulled that briefly this year in the Dorothy episode, so maybe Jensen has changed his mind on that.

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  164. I know but it is supposed to be the main mytharc and I'm bored to death with it. I'm not interested in them, I don't watch for more angels, I watch for the Winchester brothers fighting evil. This is gone this season. Even Sam is inhabited by an angel now. Maybe I should stop watching if I'm that disappointed by S9 but I love these characters too much, I'm invested in them and want the best for them and the show.

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  165. Exactly! There was a lot of criticism about the Leviathans, how they were cartoonish and laughable as villains. I personally loved Dick Roman but I agree he wasn't fully developed as a big baddie. In one way or another, the Leviathans were connected to the Winchesters, the angels aren't as of now so I don't have any interest in them.

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  166. You know Castiel isn't Dean's mistress. All this constant crying over the fact that Dean didn't give Castiel money, or put him up in a hotel or something? What the heck is this. Castiel isn't Dean's responsibility, Castiel isn't Dean's boyfriend. IF Sam and Dean were able to fend for themselves at times as children, a grown ass man like Castiel can sure enough keep himself in Kraft Dinner.

    And where is Dean supposed to get this money? Should he leave the bunker at night to hustle pool or hustle poker to keep Castiel in pampers? Or hock the stuff from the bunker to keep Castiel in huggies. Castiel has been watching humanity for eons he should be able to locate a paper and find a job.

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  167. Of course, he isn't his mistress, he doesn't have to help him, it is not his obligation. But Castiel is Dean's friend and if my friend we in danger, would probably end up homeless and/or killed, I would do what I could to help him even if he couldn't stay with me. We don't have to help people we like or even those who are simply in need, but still most people do that because they want to or it is a right thing to do.

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  168. At least this year I am not wishing that Sam would just walk off the
    earth, he was like a spoiled kid last year, I want my way or I will
    throw myself on the floor and have a tantrum


    I'm sorry, but how did Sam behave this way last year? I thought Sam was grossly OOC in the first half of S8 too , but he did not behave like a spoiled brat threatening to throw tantrums if he didn't get his way. Sam stated his positions very clearly. He told Dean he thought Dean was dead, and that he stopped hunting and settled down w/a girl. He didn't lie to Dean about that. He got upset when Dean sent him that text message, but I still didn't see any tantrums or spoiled brat-like behavior. And I definitely never saw Sam threaten to leave if Dean didn't do what Sam wanted.



    I'm really trying to think of where you're getting this from Sam's behavior, and I'm coming up blank.

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  169. I honestly dont think it was even something the writers thought about untill the fans started whining, Carver was naive enough to believe that fans would realise that Dean had no choice but to not let Cas stay at the bunker at Zekes request because he didnt want to jeopard Sam's life and that would be that. Dean had better things to worry about and probably thought Cas was capable enough to fend for himself after all Sam and Dean have been doing so since they were children.

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  170. because he said he didnt want to hunt anymore that makes him a spoiled kid? wow just seriously wow! I thought it was pretty clear in the script and what I saw on screen that Sam felt guilty that he hadnt looked for Dean and thought it would be better that he left Dean to it because that way he wouldnt let him down. That can be backed up by the fact that at no time did Sam actually walk away from Dean other than when Dean played the cruel phone trick, when Sam said that Dean saved people but he himself felt that he didnt (episode 3 I think), the fact that he put Dean and the mission before his own happiness and didnt go back to Amelia and then never once threw it Dean's face. Sam though Dean would be better off without him because he felt like he only ever let Dean down I think thats more to do with Sam's lack of self worth and guilt for past events more than just being a jerk or a spoiled kid. Its all there on screen if you take off your Sam wrong, Poor Dean blinders.

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  171. some fans can not see beyond their own hate

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  172. basically you thought Dean and Cas would be getting it on and that didnt happen

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  173. there is some brilliant fan fic out there if you've got time to read it. Some fans know these boys better than the writers and are talented writers. Downside is there is a lot of bashing, fanwanking and plenty of poorly written fics too.

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  174. what utter bullcrap
    Seriously I hope your own family and friends never called you selfish for wanted to have a life, go to school, have a home and family. All things that Dean himself has wanted and had at some point too you know so I guess that makes him selfish too. And since isnt off currently living his own life I guess like Dean he selflessly gave it up for hunting and family too?

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  175. Lil Nerdy Dude With Wings23 December 2013 at 16:21

    Yes! I agree with you.
    When Carver said they were going to take some risks this season, I did not imagine this to be it. This season has been so disappointing. Watching every episode became painful and fearful instead of pleasant and entertaining (not even mentioning exciting). The fact that they stripped my fave character (Cas) of principles and convictions, while completely destroying my fave relationships on the show (Dean/Cas + TFW) in just 3 episodes.. I mean when we think about it, Cas has been in 4 episodes so far and they managed to undo a ridiculous amount of beautiful aspects in Cas relationship with the brothers and with Dean. It must be some kind of record. I don't know, I'm really disappointed. I'm holding to this little shred of hope called Robert Berens and Robbie Thompson but things aren't looking good guys.


    I find myself watching a season that is tearing everything I love about this show apart.

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  176. But Castiel and Dean were on the outs. Castiel and Dean's relationship was in the toilet and to be honest I don't think that their friendship has been anything to sneeze at since Castiel broke Sam's head. It's had it's moments but it hasn't been very friendly in a long time!

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  177. Sam bashing is something only Dean fans want to hear thank you very much.

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  178. Of course you are it is written all over your posts. As for favouring Sam's feelings in what way are they doing that ? allowing Sam to voice them once in a blue moon or that he has any at all ? or they do not fit into a certain set of rules ?,


    I only wish Sam was getting half of what you seem to think he is .

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  179. True, but there is definitely more than one good fanfic out there. I love a good fanfic! It's what got me through S7. Some people did a great a job w/the hallucinations - much better than the show!

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  180. Depends on what that person has to say and their motives behind it. Your Sam is not my Sam .

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  181. losing sight of what makes people love the show and simplifying complicated, emotionally layered storylines to their most boring, basic aspects. Or perhaps it’s because writing the show at the level it once was is too challenging for the current crop of writers.



    Here is where you hit the nail on the head. Ironically, now that the structure of the show is fallling apart, and the characters are being discarded (Kevein) or mashed into the ground becoming paraodies of themselves (Dean) the production team doesn't seem to give a damn anymore. I believe J2M are still invested, but the writers and runners are (I feel) paying more attention to a spin-off than their regular gig, I mean obviously, since they are willing to discard 7 seasons of continuity without a thought, it means they don't want to write for Supernatural.


    And ratings have been going up, so to the powers that be, doubtless they see no problem. In the end the fans loyalty may be a detriment to the show, as fans hang on year after year, where other audience might have thrown in the towel years ago,

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  182. And who even supported Sam's decision last year? It was supposed to be the mature, best decision but no one supported. Not Bobby, Meg, or Charlie! Plus, it was just added to Sam's own growing pile of failures w/r/t Dean.



    I'm not sure what Carver wanted to achieve, but Sam's decision to not look was not supported by the show in any way, shape, or form, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

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  183. I think it's just an example of the writers extreme sloppiness this season, they leave it to staffers to look up errors, just thinking they can write around pesky canon to get to a one-note plot, they seem to forget how audiences see seasons of this show at a sitting, and know canon back and forth, because guess what? The mythology of Supernatural was always a big draw, giving a new take on monsters, demons, angels ... when you keep stopping mid-episode to figure out simple motivations and logistics its breaking you out of the world the show is attempting to create. most of these episodes would not pass muster as fan-fiction.

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  184. This is something the writers should be concerned about - it's supplying good storytelling.the whole scenario of running out to save Cas, bringing him all the way back to the bunker only to kick him out just Made No Sense. If Zeke wanted to keep himself a secret, he would have sent Dean alone.

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  185. I always thought Gadzeke wasn't aware Dean was going to ask Sam to stay. I'm not sure why Gadzeke was worried anyway b/c I don't think Cas recognized him at all.

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  186. I don't think that's true, one of the main themes last year was Dean and Castiel's relationship - Cas being sane again and choosing Purgatory, Dean's guilt, not to mention the closing scenes with Dean and Cas preparing to possibly never see each other again with the closing of Heaven. Cas falling was one of the most sublime concepts of season five, and here we finally have him human, and all that possibility for great storytelling was thrown in the sewer. How much better would it have been to have Cas meet April over more than one episode, so that her being taken over by a Reaper a) made sense b) was made poignant c) gave Cas possible reasons for wanting to stay human.


    Even with Misha a regular with more episodes than ever before Cas has no consistency, not even in a single episode where he's bumbling one minute and bad-ass angel the next, WHAT A WASTE. Wanting Castiel and Dean to have a strong connection and bond that's realized in the story does not mean that fans want the relationship sexualized. Much as I demand strong Dean and Sam connection in Supernatural, I've no need to see them have sex.

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  187. And he did just that. I agree with you.

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  188. If April was being possessed by a Reaper, she did not give consent to have sex with Cas. So it's rape. It is never explained why a Reaper even needs a human body, is the person still inside? Or is there just a meatsuit. That's why you don't fuck with canon - but then again, look who wrote the episode, Buckner-Ross-Leming. *GAG*

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  189. They were connected to the Winchesters for a few episodes, but after that, even Bobby's death didn't stop them from just becoming C-level villains who were doing genetic engineering offcamera as Dean was more worried about 10 other things.

    The angels seem more tied to Dean and Sam, to me anyway, but that doesn't mean it will go anywhere. I hope it does.

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  190. Oh yes he did threaten to leave, and don't forget Benny and leaving Dean chained up by a crazy man. Sam was so off the rails last year, not the Sam of the first 7 years that I loved.

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  191. I don't think the angels are the main mytharc this season. I think the mytharc, if there is one, is angels, demons, all together. I think the main story is what happens when you make decisions you think you're supposed to make (Cas hiding from angels, Cas becoming an angel again, Dean lying about everything because he was so desperate to save Sam), and the consequences of those decisions.

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  192. Dean's become a parody of himself, Sam is hardly there, Cas is still as inconsistent as ever, and even great side characters, Crowley, Abbadon, Kevin, Charlie are given short shrift.

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  193. Yes, it is as if when the writers ditched the 'close the gates' storyline - which should have dominated the season but was only an afterthought - there was no need to carry it into season nine, other than the fall of the angels, which again, should be a cornerstone of season nine, but that too has been backburnered for useless filler like Dean being a dog, and reruns of old episodes (veritas-vesta) we are moving no where new, only treading water, if not drowning.

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  194. I think that may be true, but after the midseason finale it could have been a hint that GadZeke was pretending to be Sam more than we or Dean was aware of. He may have felt that if Cas stayed Cas might pick up on his being there, if he wasn't as submerged as he pretended.

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  195. They haven't dealt with the demon possession angle in years, yes, it gets a mention in an episode now and then, but the boys haven't been that concerned in a long while, oh yeah, there was mention of being able to cure demons - that hasn't been brought back in season nine except for how Crowley might now be addicted to human blood.

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  196. Why is it always HATE with you. No where did I use the word hate.

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