_595_slogo.jpg)
Scenes between them occur in episode 7 written by Robert Berens, who is also the new addition to the writing team of Supernatural.
@darkforetold today, Dean
— S. E. Hinton (@se4realhinton) September 19, 2013
Speculation
We don't know yet how the first half of the season will continue picking up on what happened after Castiel's last conversation with Dean. So far, the facts include a disconcerting lack of interaction between them, such as phone conversations. Both of them are preoccupied with their individual issues and Castiel could potentially be regarded as a broken tool by the Winchesters. In fact, no other reports have indicated a more positive outlook other than the following tweet.@helicoptersky not gonna happen
— S. E. Hinton (@se4realhinton) September 18, 2013
Dean and Castiel’s friendship is currently treated like the elephant in the room. On top of that, the writers have engaged with fans quite actively, making joking references and quoting significant lines for these two characters and even playing around with the idea of them being more than just friends. And many fans were happy to engage.
Yes, we're talking about romance.
Thus, it isn't really surprising that fans are getting restless for a reunion, despite the various interpretations about this particular relationship on the show. There are certainly fans who could do without it. And it depends on what each and everyone of us prefers to see. Unfortunately, these demands often cause a lot of problems and pressure for showrunners and producers.
You might ask yourself why people interpret a relationship one way or another, and it’s a very valid question. However, it does help to talk about it in a broader context, highlighting the do’s and don'ts. The reason why many fans are currently restless for more positive news is simply the fact that showrunners and producers have never been shying away from Dean and Cas. Until now.
A year ago, we had declarations from showrunner Jeremy Carver, such as: "No one is more of a fan of Dean and Cas than I am."
But in what way?
Romance?
An interview from TV Guide Canada revealed the following interpretation.“If Cas and Dean had a kissing scene, whether it’s a dream sequence or not, I would just really hope that Jensen brushed his teeth,” he quipped. “That would be my dream.”
In all seriousness though, Collins noted that he does sense a definite tension between Castiel and Dean on set, especially after coming into contact with fanfiction that ships and points out the connections between the surface-straight duo.
“It’s one of the very unexpected surprises of coming to this job,” Collins said of fanfic. “Knowing that it is out there, you can’t help but be conscious of it in those moments.”
He continued, “It’s hard to say whether we’re playing to the fact that we know fans are doing that, or whether that’s just a real aspect of their relationship … But I think that there is a certain intense intimacy to their relationship that is real and that fuels that fanfiction.”
Collins also confirmed this impression by saying:
"C’mon, in the first few episodes, Dean’s running around Purgatory, chopping off heads, Where’s the angel, where’s the angel, you know, the guy I’m in love with?This year, Collins tiptoed around the subject at conventions, confirming that it’s up for interpretation. However, the tiptoeing and joking is what ultimately causes extreme tension and perpetuates the idea that Supernatural cannot consciously deal with that particular relationship and its implications in a serious way, simply because it's two male characters we are talking about. And that is problematic. I do want to believe that it can be treated with respect and honesty.
Fans: I don’t remember Dean saying that.
Misha: He might as well have. You know, we know what it is, what’s going on. We don’t talk about it. The actors don’t, Jensen and I don’t. But we’re all perfectly aware of how the relationship is, the writers are completely aware of how it’s being written. It may be unspoken but that doesn’t mean it’s not there or not true."
The immense support for them didn’t just start with season 8, even though it's been particularly strong since then. Season 4-7 showed a variety of scenes that support fans' interpretations from various angles, including the use of romantic tropes, dialogue, cinematography and the very blatant use of one of the most common techniques between male friendships on television. The romantic tropes include entrenching on someones personal space (5x04) and prolonged eye contact via zooming in on their facial expressions, nonverbal methods that are left to a fan’s imagination, thus neither confirming nor denying anything. Similar to Mulder/Scully we are dealing with common tropes such as “Held Gaze”,"Just Friends,” “Can’t Live With Them, Can’t Live Without Them,” “Will They Won’t They?,” “Everyone Can See It” and “UST,”. What is not left to your imagination and something that is used by the writers and directors and even actors is the following concept.
Queer-baitingWhat is it and why it isn’t helpful.
Perhaps you have heard of that term. I want to elaborate on it a little bit.
Chemistry between actors is subjective, but I am arguing from the point of someone who sees it. So here we go.
The first step involves seeing chemistry between the actors on the show, which is clearly unplanned. If you already don’t, then that is where you won’t be able to follow further steps, because you perceive that relationship in different ways. Point is that Castiel’s story was never supposed to be extended beyond season 4 and the fact that fans responded positively to his presence and to his scenes with Dean is further testament that the initial stage was unplanned.
This chemistry alone can translate to people seeing them as more than just friends, which include the aforementioned nonverbal scenes (staring at each other in 8x22). It’s enough material for people to draw certain conclusions. By the way, I want to stress that it’s perfectly okay to show characters in intimate scenes without instantly saying the are in love with each other. Effemiphobia exists and has contributed to a gender taxonomy, in which all kinds of feelings and intimacy between men are considered effeminate, "gay" and therefore weak. However, queer-baiting works differently and actively engages with the fans of the show in a narrative that hints at something while simultaneously shying away from it for multiple reasons.
The writers pick up on fans’ reactions to it and proceed to extend their scenes, which is why Castiel’s primary interaction in season 8 was still with Dean rather than other characters. Until now. As Misha confirmed, the writers are perfectly aware how their relationship comes across and denying any responsibility on their part and fans simply accusing other fans of seeing something that is not there will always be untrue. Queer-baiting is not your fault. A response to these scenes only exists, because the people involved in the show include ambiguity. This is why the script puts in specific lines, or why the camera zooms in on their faces, or why the extra-diegetic music used for their scenes underlines romantic interpretations. It’s a combination of all these factors, which makes people see certain things. It depends on how responsive a fan is to queer-baiting (and seeing these scenes as jokes) and whether he recognizes the problem behind it or not. However, the more scenes between these characters pop up and the more ambiguous they become in its execution, the more problems eventually happen. Fans start getting their hopes up that maybe the showrunner will go that way. To repeat it again, the people involved in the show are not oblivious to how a scene can be interpreted and they make use of these techniques consciously to imply romance without outwardly confirming it. It's fun, it makes people happy. This is called subtext. Which means it doesn’t exist in a fan’s imagination. And now you have to differentiate between subtext and queer-baiting.
We obviously face a problem.
What do the showrunners do if they have firmly established one or both characters as heterosexual?
Simple.
Ambiguity and jokes at the expense of queer people, including lines such as "get out of my ass, Cas". And that is the problem of queer-baiting.
The way many shows frame certain dialogues in order to not “tarnish” the heterosexuality of the characters is by making jokes and not taking these scenes seriously. The list of shows doing it is quite huge. Unfortunately, it is an indicator that a homo-romantic interpretation doesn't have a chance to become text in the show. This means: Frequent use of boyfriend jokes, intimacy jokes between men, basically all jokes that play with a romantic interpretation of these two characters in a way not to be taken seriously. It happens within the story as well as outside of it, for example when an actor continues joking about it in interviews.
These jokes are deliberately placed into the show’s canon story and thus they are not a fan’s fault, because you either have the choice to see it for what it is (an insult) or to dismiss it as the dreaded fanservice. But it exists, because certain fans see chemistry that was unplanned, and the showrunners act accordingly and in their belief that this is what fans want. It isn’t. At least not for many queer people.
The main problem is that certain scenes are jokes and others are subtext, and we are confronted with jokes because this interpretation is not being taken seriously in order to strictly establish that Dean Winchester is heterosexual, for example. His discomfort becomes the joke and this isn’t a support for romantic storylines at all.
And then we get gems like this quote from the Season 8 DVD featurette. Ben Edlund and Phil Sgriccia on the scene where Dean meets Aaron in the bar in “Everybody Hates Hitler”:
"Ben: He [Jensen] did amazing in this. Phil: He was so funny in this. Like the whole close up where he pulls the wallet back, that was something he did that we caught with the camera. It was so much fun to shoot that, because he played it so right down the middle like, just more awkward about it like, ”Wow, somebody likes me.” Ben: Well, that’s the weird thing, is that it reads in this weird way where it does feel like Dean’s a little bit like…it’s almost like a romantic comedy kind of fluster. [Phil: Oh sure.] Which is very interesting for the character Dean, like because it just sorta suggests this weird…this potential. Phil: This potential for love in all places. Ben: Oh Aaron and Dean, they could come together. He’s had a rough life, he’s a hard character to, to you know, settle down with."
Words like "friend" invalidate the romantic interpretation on some level, because the nonverbal and ambiguous scenes always remain subtextual while friendship labels do not. Cas is still Dean's "buddy", after all. The show continues having these two characters staring at each other, occasionally putting them in scenes in which fans can interpret them as being potentially interested in each other, but nothing more. On top of that, Dean's bisexuality is hinted at with other characters, but not resolved. Hey, I wouldn't mind some Dean and Aaron action.
The characters never progress in their relationship. Fans don’t get an “I love you”, they don’t get a kiss or hands touching. They don’t get the slow progress that is needed on TV shows to portray that these characters as seriously romantically interested in each other.
It gets worse. A character's heterosexuality is further reinforced by giving one or both of the characters a female protagonist to interact with so as to create sexual tension and the subsequent release of it. This becomes text and the general viewer, who doesn’t see the ambiguity in the first place, still thinks that the characters are heterosexual. The interest between a female and a male character is made explicit with words and also actions. A kiss often follows. There is also a reason why fans of both Dean and Castiel got countless of reports that they will have sexual encounters in season 9. I don't think The Powers that Be are being malicious on purpose, but there is no denial that on social media this topic caused controversy. The most prominent assumption is that it's definitely going to be with women in both cases (heterosexism, as usual). On top of that, we cannot really expect these women to be treated with the respect and agency they deserve, because they often disappear as soon as the plot demands for it (as happened with Daphne, Castiel's wife). They do not get to express their desires and literally have no chance of survival, because their demise or tragic story fuels the pain of the more important male character. Love stories on Supernatural are not the most important part of the show, but also not particularly well-developed if it happens in my honest opinion. It seems that accidental chemistry has more of a chance to be believable. It also generates more interest, such as currently seen with Dean's lack of a mythological storyline, but significant interaction with Abaddon in season 9.
Dean and Castiel still don’t get any kind of text between each other, and relationships with one of them and other characters are at best a narrative failure coupled with disrespect for the female character (Amelia, where are you?). Romance on TV always needs time and patience to get your audience hooked. You don't want to be told that these two characters are in love or had fun times in the past. You want to see it step by step. And on a show that focuses on killing monsters it's not exactly top priority. And we aren't looking for another soap opera, but believable relationships in a world predominantly haunted by evil.
Friendship and Relationships
For Dean and Cas the label friendship remains and the jokes continue, although season 8 has been rather respectful in that area. Furthermore, it is a fact that our society is geared towards a heteronormative perspective, which means women and men on television are almost always perceived as romantic with much less subtext, whereas men and other men are firmly put into the category “bromance” and need much more subtext to be perceived as more. Bromance - in my opinion- is a term that invalidates any possibility or romance between men, which is extremely problematic. And for those people that argue “why can’t these two dudes just stay friends?”.
No. Open a book, watch film or TV and you are basically assaulted with bromances everywhere, men as comrades in difficult situations and nothing more. This is one of the most common relationship presented in our media and it’s not surprising that these men are in the most well-developed relationships on screen, and platonic of course.
To sum up, queer-baiting is when fans get material, often jokes and not serious and respectful subtext. These scenes bait the audience into thinking that they might become more, while completely holding off any further development for the sake of supporting their heterosexuality and "just friends" impression. It's often done subconsciously, but it still hurts a queer audience, because you are literally told that your existence is comedy or discomfort for the straight character or not worthy to be talked about or developed further. It’s also very insulting to any queer fan, who wants to see himself being represented in one or the other, only to see their sexuality being treated as a joke. None of this is even remotely okay. It isn't okay or satisfying enough to watch Dean Winchester being made uncomfortable by a queer character, unless he is flattered and might even respond positively ( a reason why people thought that the scene with Aaron indicated Dean's interest in men). It's at least a first step in the right direction to have Charlie, the only queer and more prominent character on the show, being treated respectfully. Is it okay to say that people should be happy with such a small step and that she should be enough? No. What people are looking for are believable stories about love and friendship regardless of any orientation. Not sidekicks, parodies, stereotypes. And that includes stories in different worlds with different fictional struggles.
As for Dean and Castiel, the payoff never comes, the confirmation of their queerness never happens and no representation or textual evidence of romance occurs, which is why declaring that a character loves another character after the story ends isn’t valid either (see Dumbledore).
The audience has never seen the culmination point, the payoff. And in the end Dean and Castiel were still seen as friends. What the show is basically saying is that they are and never will be “that kind of show”, unless it's a minor story not related to a main character. We don't know the future, but the instances within and outside of the show keep piling up.
And now I want to explain why shows like Supernatural are so very important, even though the general audience might see is as 40 minutes of entertainment and not something to be taken seriously. Many kids, young adults and older fans watch a TV show not just for entertainment purposes, but because they are passionate about the fictional world and the characters that have been created. They see themselves reflected in these characters, and follow their journey, because they are truly invested in the show. Downplaying the importance by saying “don’t take it seriously” and “it’s just a TV show” is insulting to all those fans who take their time of the day to support a show. For free!
The fact, and I often like to repeat it, is that TV shows don’t work in a vacuum, because they reflect on our current social system, which means that representation of queer couples and diversity is not prominent. Although it's definitely getting better.
Why is Dean and Castiel different?
Technically, they aren’t. They aren't champions of queer characters and probably never will be. We are still talking about two white, male characters, currently the most represented people in media. Obviously there are arguments against a relationship for Dean and Cas, often argued from the simple point that people don’t see this supposed “subtext” or “chemistry” between the actors. However, as stated above, the showrunners and production actively contributed to a romantic interpretation, which means that they have a certain responsibility to carry that is not solely on the fans’ shoulders. It's their right to refuse to say no. But I'd rather have a clear no than a never-ending maybe.
Jim Michaels explained the following issue in an interview with Supernatural Turkey.
Dean and Cas have a sort of chemistry on the show, right? What do you think of Destiel?It also isn’t surprising that the accusations of queer-baiting are rising because of that. Coupled with the fact that there's no good information to go with, people aren't expecting too much. There will never be a definite yes or a definite no, but the showrunners might as well say no with such a simple thing as silence. What's the point of telling your audience that there was this "weird potential" only to leave it as is?
Well you know I think that’s something that the fans sort of, put gasoline on that fire we maybe hinted at a little bit, you know the fact of the matter is we are a very open minded show and we’ll continue to keep an open mind about a lot of things, and we’re not trying to deceive anybody, but it’s something more talked about by the fans than we ever talk about it I can assure you. So it’s a fun thing that the guys get to play off each other and stuff.
Supernatural has great starting points in many areas, more so than other shows I like. It remains to be seen whether it capitalizes on them or not.
At least, Dean and Castiel's friendship might hold. They are just too caught up in other issues right now. The season premiere is already packed with action, showing Dean supporting his brother and Cas on his own, experiencing the first breath of humanity.
Season 9 premieres Tuesday, October 8 at 9:00 p.m. on The CW.
If we need a poll on do we want them to get together, then I vote NO. I enjoy them as friends and don't want anything more.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you there. I cringe when people seem to be so genuinely convinced that they are romantically involved. Just because the writers/actors acknowledge that a small portion of fans think they are involved it does not mean they are.
ReplyDeleteThey are not, but this small acknowledgment causes more problems for fans than it usually would, if we didn't have to deal with all the hints and interviews. Ambiguity is counterproductive. A definite yes or no would solve more.
ReplyDeleteI don't see it as ambiguity though, I just see it as them having a a laugh. I'm a guy with no
ReplyDeleteInterest in men but I have jokes with my buds, it doesn't mean we are banging. Do Dean and Cas have a bromance? Sure. Are they screwing? Obviously not.
And the laughing is insulting. To queer people. Sexuality is not a joke.
ReplyDeleteIt's not meant to be insulting. But if you look at any group of fellas on a night out I guarantee you will see at least one of them kiss another dude on the cheek or something that would blow destiel shippers minds if dean and Cas ever did it.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this great article Veronika, I really wish the should could be honest with its fans. Dean and Castiel have, in my opinion, the most well developed relationship in Supernatural and it saddens me to think that the writers and producers can't see it and won't capitalize on it, simply because Dean and Cas are played by two men. People who don't see Dean and Cas as romantic keep telling me it's just a (sexual) fantasy shared by a handful of fans, but that makes me wonder, if we are so insignificant, then why not just confirm that they will never be together? I believe it's because the show is not done using us yet.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you've been paying attention Ross. Of course they are not 'screwing', who ever said that? And it's not just about physical touch or jokes, it's about everything they've been through, it's about a relationship that we believe can be interpreted as romantic (altough not necessarily sexual).
ReplyDeleteI thought the title was a joke and then I must of been hysterical to click onto it. I scrolled down and saw Dean's 'bisexuality' along with Cas and Dean hooking up. I haven't read the article thoroughly. Seriously, that's offensive to the actors when interpreted as more than friends. They all have wives and kids you know to those who have 'unusual fantasties'.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna interpret that Dean and Cas have a close friendship because of what SPN have shown with team free will. If Sam have a close friend who is male I hope I won't be seeing this kind of article like Dean.
Maybe there should be one as a joke? :)
ReplyDelete"that's offensive to the actors when interpreted as more than friends" - except we're talking about their CHARACTERS here. A straight actor can portray both gay and straight characters, and I have no idea why portraying a gay character should be considered offensive? I'm just talking in general here, not specifically about Dean&Cas and their sexualities.
ReplyDeleteIt is getting so sad that every comment has to be PC, someone is ALWAYS insulted about something.
ReplyDeleteI read Dean and Castiel's relationship, as complex and really interesting portrayals of male friendships. Why insist that Dean and Castiel's relationship must progress to something romantic and sexual? At the core of Supernatural has always been an embracing of the ambiguities of life - of what is right and wrong, who is family and who isn't, and a continuing search for identity and meaning. Yes, I want diverse representations of gender and sexuality on TV, and that includes characters who are unequivocally gay or bi or lesbian, and also those who may be more fluid and less defined in terms of common labels.
ReplyDeleteAnd lets face it, you are interpreting things through shipper goggles. I can view exactly the same interactions between Dean and Castiel, and see them as ways the characters are being portrayed as emotionally intimate. Remember the same "romantic" tropes you mention are also present in Sam and Dean's relationship - in fact there are deployed with even greater effect there, as the brothers relationship is repeatedly reinforced as the most important one in the world to each other.
The baiting, if any exists, i would suggest is not to a queer audience, but to a shipping one. I am always suspicious when fans start claiming their desire to see Dean and Castiel together is one that arises out of concern for greater representation on non-het relationships when they don't mention the characters that are acutally queer. As a lesbian, I am thrilled to have my queerness reflected in the wonderful Charlie and deliciously evil Crowley.
Crowley is not canonically queer, is he? I'm bisexual and just because I watch shows like Orange is the New Black doesn't mean I identify with every queer character, because the characters are people and have more than just their sexuality as part of the story. If Crowley were queer, I'd still dislike him, because I dislike Crowley as a character in itself.
ReplyDeleteyou do know Jensen=/=Dean and Misha=/=Castiel. and why would play a character that can be interpreted as queer be offensive to the actor?
ReplyDeleteThank you for the very interesting article. And contrary to what some ignorant people may argue in the comments section, this is a very important and urgent issue on heteronormative media. This goes way back and if you think it's only about Dean and Cas you're wrong. It's much bigger than Supernatural. It's about fairly representing all kinds of people on television and it's obviously being done wrongly. This is way everyone should have efficient social studies in high school, so you can see 'beyond' the screen and know what it really means.
ReplyDeleteWhat would I do if TPTB "made" Dean&Cas kiss on screen? First, I would have a 3-day tumblr party with all my followers where we would reblog every single gif of it and make hunderds and thousands of fanvids. Then, i would go on major media websites, and watch the extreme nay-sayers like you go "Ohh, so I guess the sexuality can be fluid". All this while reblogging pic after pic of Sam Winchester, because being a Destiel supporter doesn't equal wanting Sam out of the story. :)
ReplyDeleteExactly. How you see it, the common spectator. However people who study social studies and how sexualities are represented on the media see way beyond the 'laughs' and 'jokes with buds'. Think better if you and your buds stare at each other eyes like Dean and Cas do because if so, well I got some news for you.
ReplyDeleteI have a masters degree in Psychology actually. Sometimes a state is just a stare. Not everything has underlying issues to e analysed.
ReplyDelete'it is just too vivid imagination of female part of fandom and their desire to see two handsome men hook up' - wow, less insulting maybe? If articles like this are written and the writters and producers of the show have talked about it, it's implicit. No one is imagining anything and you know what? What if people were imagining part of it? That is one of the objectives of all those hints given by the show.
ReplyDeleteWhy are people allowed to romanticise about a man and a woman in a show, while sometimes it's what brings spectators to the shows and not do it with two same sex characters that it's immediatly portrayed as 'vivid imagination' or 'their desire to see two handsome men hook up'? Well guess what? If I like to see a beautiful woman hook up with a gorgeous man, I AM ALLOWED TO WANT TO SEE TWO BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OR MAN HOOKING UP. And it's not right to make people think that wishing to see it is wrong. It's the same. THE SAME.
well, you should read it and invite some knowledge in. You're in need of it. Seriously, why even bother commenting something you haven't read? it's like 'oh let me show everyone how little i know and how obtuse i can be'
ReplyDeleteWell... what can I say... I've written that there is a group of people who sees it that way. And it is truth. But I'm not trying to insult anybody since I would be insulting myself:P I can definitely feel "the romantic vibe" from them. I just don't think it'll ever lead to anything
ReplyDeletesame here :)
ReplyDeleteIgnorant or not maybe it is not as important to alot of watchers who simply want to enjoy their show and not have a social study when they sit down to watch a hour of television . I do not personally ship it is not a need for me to interpret characters and their relationship that way . Dean and Castiel to me have a bond but not anything more . I do believe that the writers have been foolish in the hinting of something more and they should of been more aware of the impact.
ReplyDeleteThis is a lovely article!
ReplyDeleteYeah you are right, being 'gay' is so offensive. God, please stop talking
ReplyDeletewell if it's just a stare yeah. But when we have 20 intense stares, body proximity in almost every scene, intimate dialogue and a bunch of all other things named above in the article, that's hinting something. It gets to a point that it's hard not to notice. And if we're honest here that's why so many people get mad because they see it, they just don't like it.
ReplyDeleteInteresting and thoughtful discussion of Dean/Cas. Frankly, I'm a fan of "Destiel" simply because I love a good romance, and once you get past the (boring and antiquated) notion that there can't be a romance between two male leads, the Dean/Cas story has everything you could ask for in a good romance. Everything except for delivering on all that promise.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to think the show's creators will one day have the cojones to Go There, but I admit we haven't seen too much evidence of that. They'll just keep introducing one cookie-cutter variation of a "hot babe" after another, wondering why it is that the female love interests never seem to catch on with the fans.
I respect that. Personally I like to know why and how realities are being portrayed in TV shows because at the end of the day, a large number of people will absorve and adopt social mannerisms of the shows. However, it's important and not looking into it doesn't mean it's not there.
ReplyDeleteI find it funny when I read things like "I thought the title was a
ReplyDeletejoke" (neither sexuality nor Dean and Castiel relationship are jokes, my
friend) or "I won't read your article" (but still come here and leave a
comment). This is what Dean and Castiel generate in fandom. Supporters
or the pairing are in love with it (not because of any sexual factor but
the romantic implications of it, that are a lot and are not invented by
fans but shown in the plot), non-shippers find it interesting and are
opened to the possibility (as any open person would be in 2013, just
look at the news today), and then the no-supporters talk about it
non-stop, devoting to the pairing as much time as its supporters, giving
it even more publicity (life is a boomerang).
Dean and
Castiel are my main reason to watch the show right now, and not because
I hate on another main character (which is a ridiculous fandom myth at
this point, always brought by desperate fans in an attempt to start wank
and distort the main focus of the discussion) but because I'm
interested in their relationship the most (and that's not a sin, spn is
not the first and won't be the last show with more than one main
attention-catcher), as both a romantic person and an eternal
fiction-geek.
I'm waiting for them to deepen their relationship
this season, to show the world love transcends genres, age, heaven,
hell, earth and purgatory... all together. And to show all the hints
writers wrote all these years were there for a reason: the reason to
portray the most pure and real love story I've ever seen (and yeah, for
your information, i've seen a lot).
xoxo
I mean, you can believe what you want and all but I mean...why? It seems to me and many others who I have talked to that they think Destiel is just a joke and a playful reference towards the fans. Like the whole them finding out there were fanfics about them(The characters). Not to come across as sexist or anything but it seems to me the only people who take Destiel seriously and ship it are girls between the ages of 14-25ish range. Most commonly on Tumblr. I don't mean this in an insulting way, but that must say something when the majority of people who ship it are girls who are in to the whole seeing two guys kiss in the first place.
ReplyDeleteEh, I just don't buy it. And I'm not convinced the writers exactly know the boys as well as they should. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind those references. I laugh just like everyone else. But if it were to ever be canon it would just seem so off and forced. And it's not because they would be in a homosexual relationship. Plenty of homosexual relationships work on tv. Jack Harkness for example. Likewise, there are plenty of heterosexual couples that just don't work. Sam and Amelia for example.
Regardless, I can see you put a lot of thought in to this. Nice job :) Regardless of us being on different sides of the fence. Cheers.
i'd love to see them as something more! they're highly popular and have won many many couple polls this year to prove it. ok not everyone "ships" them but you know what? not everyone will agree on a ship. i didn't ship dean and jo, but that still happened a little, didn't it? when it comes down to it, it's the showrunner's decision. whether some of the audience likes it or not, well, that is always going to happen. if destiel becomes canon, i do hope the storyline calls for it and does it justice. if it doesn't, that would be an awful waste of what could be.
ReplyDeleteWell, it doesn't matter to me if they are romantically together or not (though I wouldn't be opposed to canon destiel) - as long as they have a strong friendship I'm happy. I just hope 9.07 delievers on that front (and that Nora isn't a love interest), as does the rest of the season because as of now there's a depressingly lack of spoilers regarding anything Dean/Cas. I don't know if the writers are baiting or not (to me it doesn't feel like baiting though; they never promised us canon destiel after all and I fear that forcefully demanding canon destiel may result in the writers stopping writing them in such a way altogether. I don't want that), if they intend to follow through with canon destiel or not, but in any case I would only expect it to become canon in the last season and then in the last few episodes (at least as a possibilty, like "Merthur"), not earlier. I just want them to stop screwing Cas and Dean and their relationship over. No more forced fights and separations, please. It's my favorite relationship on the show and I'm starved for some good bits. I also want a real hug, i.e. not one person hugging the other and the other person not hugging back, but them hugging each other at the same time.
ReplyDeletethis is a great article and it describes the Dean/Cas/queer-baiting situation perfectly.
ReplyDeleteBottom line is: if Castiel were played by a woman then she and Dean would have undoubtedly become romantically or sexually involved by now.
Also, fans are not 'crazy-shipper-goggle-wearing idiots', they see chemistry where chemistry is. With the interaction seen between Dean and Castiel throughout the seasons it would be possible to eventually portray them as a romantic couple, the show runners don't seem to want to go there though. That's fine, no ones forcing them to make destiel canon, just don't queer bait and keep making out that there's an opportunity for it to happen if there's not! Anyway, is it such a crime to want non-heterosexual pairings represented on mainstream TV?
This! To me personally, Dean and Castiel have a deeper and more believable relationship (platonic or not) than a lot of M/F pairings I see on TV today.
ReplyDeleteyou know jensen's played a bisexual character before, right? you know he's an ACTOR right, which means he ACTS, which means that has nothing to do with his personal life? why would being queer be offensive anyway? this isn't a fetish. it's about two characters who have what i think is intense chemistry. two FICTIONAL characters which means anyone can interpret them how they want to. you want to see they're straight? all right, please do, but don't make it seem like being queer is offensive.
ReplyDelete"Or perhaps you might enjoy canvassing to go into threesome territory Sam/Castiel/Dean!
ReplyDeleteReally!"
that comment is the equivalent of saying "a man can't marry enough man, what's next, marrying their dogs?!"
we want dean and cas to be together. as a couple. that's it. nothing more. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Thank you so much for writing this. Unfortunately I feel that TPTB do not respect the relationship enough. I do not understand why people would cringe at the thought of Dean/Cas in a romantic way? If everything that has happened between them would have happened between a male and a female character people would be shouting at the top of their voices to make it canon. Furthermore I think TPTB realize that there is a section of the fandom invested to this relationship which is why they never outright say no to the relationship. However they do not want to acknowledge the relationship so they never say yes either. What they do is keep going on creating subtext after subtext filled scenes to pull people towards the show. That IS QUEER-BAITING TO ME and it is unfair.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? They are actors. Do you even understand what that means? You pretend. It's fiction. It's make-believe. It's not real. Uh-huh. But it's not offensive to the wives for the actors to kiss and have sex scenes with female costars? And if you are so interested in being the fantasy police, perhaps you might talk to those who just want the characters to hook up with a random woman. It cracks me up that because I actually want to see an intense, years-developing relationship be acknowledged as romantic, I'm in it for the sex, while I see posts where people beg for Dean to get some action from characters we haven't even met. Really? And this "interest" is about what then? It can only be about the sexual when you know squat about the character. Your homophobia is showing.
ReplyDeleteDo you watch the show? Yes, Dean and Sam found out about slash fiction about them both, as in Wincest and not Destiel (Dean and Cas). It's difficult to say who's exactly a Destiel shipper, I've know a lot of girls and young women that ship them. But I also found a lot of bisexual girls and boys, lesbians and older gay men. I believe that young girls are more prominent because we can only measure this online and it's more likely that younger people will do it. Although, the fanbase is majorly constituted by females as you can see in conventions. And when you say 'if it were to ever be canon it would just seem so off and forced', you're saying Dean and Cas don't have intimacy or a strong connection that will make them see each other romantically? Because, besides Sam, Cas is the only character in the show that managed to establish a strong relationship with Dean. Not even Lisa and Ben got that far with him. So wether it is forced or not, well I guess it depends on what show you've been watching.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Who gives a hoot? Supernatural isn't even about romance. The Dean/Cas FRIENDSHIP is just fine the way it is. If you want to watch a show about romance, turn on The Vampire Diaries.
ReplyDeleteDon't you think it's not the time to drag in the term queer baiting yet?
ReplyDeleteThe time for calling the crew on their crap is when they do the crap.
We've got no news other than what we've known for a while, and yet, suddenly there is a small hell being raised for no apparent reason.
We can all scream queer bait after s10, but not before the game is over. This is barking at a pie that is tastes bad when it isn't even taken outta the oven - this is raising pointless panic. The fandom's already got weak nerves so perhaps it should be better to keep the panic at bay if there ain't a reason to panic?
Especially that so far there is nothing that indicates qb might be the case.
The 3852% legit predictions about the s9 sexual encounters and the fate of the 666% gonna be women part - since when it is justified to make such vile accusations when there is literally no data to work with? This is ridiculous.
I'd just wanna remind that every supposed-to-be love interest from s8 happened to be quite the opposite, so I donno, maybe, just maybe, it would be better to give the season a try before ranting like this.
As for the people who still keep saying no to the two of them kids together
the fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's not there and squinting won't make anything go away. Also, not every single fictional relationship has to exist on terms that depend only on your liking.
In this case, it happened over time, was deliberately brought to a higher level by the current showrunner - at this point you can either roll with it or quit. And honestly, if you're gonna have a problem with the whole show only because you've got a problem with a more openly romantic relationship between two leads - you've got a problem. And because of attitude like yours - society's got a problem.
I don't think that the writers can't see it because I'm sure all the ones that do support destiel have tweeted them enough about it already, I think it's more so a will they won't they thing with the writers at this point. But I agree with the point that you made, why not just say it's not going to be done if it's really not going to happen? I feel like if they really didn't plan on doing something with Destiel, then why not just come out and say it point blank? The silence and their non willingness to talk about it has me suspicious of that matter.
ReplyDeleteAs a lesbian, I can guarantee that my interest in Dean and Cas's relationship becoming textually romantic has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see hot men make out. And I know this is not your personal opinion, just your stating a common misconception, but boy this whole concept is pissing me off.
ReplyDeleteI see Dean and Cas as romantic and from what I've learned around the internet and even at Cons, I'm pretty sure thousands of people do. Apparently, though we're not as quick in finding and commenting on articles about the two characters as the people who hate the thought of them together are -_- .
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly not ready to call it queer baiting as there is wide disagreement about what that actually entails and this story (SPN) is still ongoing. I'm also going to say that my wanting them to get together has nothing to do with representation. I want them together because I believe in their love story just like I wanted Han and Leia together. Sue me for not giving a damn that with Dean/Cas it's two male-bodied beings instead of a male and a female. Also, I find it funny that you state Crowley is queer. When was this made explicit? As far as I know, he seems to like to use sexual innuendo on everyone….he's a demon you know. As for Sam and Dean, what you fail to mention is that we have another explanation for the emotionally intimate relationship between the brothers….they are f**Ked up on codependancy. Dean as a child watched his world fall apart. He not only lost his mother but had to take her place as a parent to his baby brother. His father instilled in him that his worth relied solely on taking care of Sam. Yeah, that's romantic all right. I think you might be doing some looking at your own through some goggles. What do you say to the people who aren't shippers that see what I see or are starting to ask questions?
ReplyDeleteoh, that hug needs to happen
ReplyDeleteWonderful article! I agree with everything. Regarding Destiel it's time we have a definite answer, we can't eternally stay between 'maybe' / 'maybe not'. It's not funny anymore. Have hopes for S9 tho.
ReplyDeletequeer-baiting is not just about a relationship not being canonically established after the last episode airs. and it never will be. queer-baiting can happen at any point and in any given situation within the story and outside of it. I suggest you do not continue insulting me like that. I actually do predict Cas could eventually have a sexual encounter with a man, but many people do not, because institutionalized heterosexism is at work here.
ReplyDeleteIt kinda seems that a lot of people give a 'hoot' though
ReplyDeleteHave to point out Dean and Sam stare at each other too. Please don't tell me Wincest is real too. Not against gays, but brothers together yes.
ReplyDeleteAnd also point out that I've taken several Psych/Sociology classes and watched many, many shows.
TV shows tend to have a lot of bromances and a lot are just as close as Dean and Cas are. If they're gay, so are half the "bromance" guys on TV - and not to mention the girls. TV seems to blow up how close friends can be (Like in J.J. Abrams shows and movies!) - it's not a bad thing, but in today's society that seems to automatically mean they're gay. Hence nearly every section of fanfiction.net I've been on having slash - m/m or f/f pairings.
For me it's just a bromance until the show says otherwise.
I'd like to reference Star Trek here - Kirk and Spock were close but never were romantic. I'd say to the degree of Dean and Cas. Yes, the show aired during a time not very accepting, but that does not mean they were intended to be seen in any other way but friends. In canon, they are just friends, as close as brothers I'd say.
Also, yeah, people tend to think girls can't be just friends with guys on TV shows because fans ship anyone with chemistry. In real life I've seen plenty of girls just be friends with guys. I've also seen guys/girls who are gay be friends with straight guys/girls.
And I do think the SPN writers joke about slash just to give a wink to the fans, not to suggest anything.
I seriously doubt the SPN writers will actually go there. There are still barriers to turning someone said to be straight, gay on a show outside of soap operas. A lot of fans would not be happy, whether or not for canon sakes or because they're still biased against it.
I actually am a fan of the possibility of a relationship between the two! At first, when Castiel first appeared in Season 4, I had no intention of seeing him and Dean in anything more than a platonic relationship. But as I got further along in the series, as well as seeing all of these tropes pointed out in great detail by the internet, I found them to be a very good match for each other romantically! They have a unique chemistry between them and as Cas once said, a "more profound bond" and I think the writers should roll with it! If the actors are comfortable with the idea (and we already know Misha is), I'd love to see Cas and Dean take their relationship to the next level =)
ReplyDeleteIt is pissing me off too but to make a valid point and not be accused of the exact thing I needed to add that even if I don't like it and find it quite offensive.
ReplyDeleteBut there is definitely a large number of Destiel shippers. I wonder how many we are. I think we're quite many and it would be an impressive number. Without even mentioning shippers that are not online as in common spectators.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to read a long and thought out article on this. I enjoy watching Dean and Castiel's interactions irrespective of the whole friends/more than situation, and I see why being ambiguous about the relationship has been beneficial for the show runners in a kind of have their cake and eat it too sort of way. But more recently, especially with Season 8, I feel they may have been backing themselves into a corner slightly.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct in that it is the showrunners decision and that is what scares me, I don't trust Carver to NOT go there. He screwed up canon so badly last season that I guess anything goes. But I will be very disappointed, I love the FRIENDSHIP that Dean and Cas have and don't understand anytime you become friends with someone it has to go into sex.
ReplyDeleteIt would be really nice to have Destiel but honestly it's not like we're going to stop watching if there isn't. I'm sitting on the fence here because I'm pretty happy with the relationship Dean and Cas have right now, but I'd be just as happy if Destiel happened. Another thing: if Dean and Cas end up just becoming best friends then isn't that kind of similar to having a romantic relationship but without the sex and making out?
ReplyDeletePeople are free to view a relationship in their way. I will confess Dean's sexuality has never been a big issue for me so his relationship with Castiel is based on my own view . I do not think a meanigful relationship needs to be sexual and the unnecessary baiting from the show that has gone on has added more problems. As many who see it has 'romantic' there will be equally those who do not and those who think there maybe more there but do not want it canon on the show. The show does not belong to just one group of fans but many others and that is why it is a emotive subject.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I want this year is for Destiel to be canon. I could see it happening at the half way point of this season or the finale. I hope the writers know this is something that would bring in big ratings this year and guarantee them a tenth season. It'd also just be the coolest, most refreshing thing this series could do.
ReplyDeleteI agree. If they turn out to not get together I will feel hurt as a fan of Dean and Cas. They've been awfully quiet about Dean and Cas' relationship and a lot of people think (and I honestly hope) it means it will get canon or something significanlty it's about to happen. But if it turns out it was only the TPTB hiding and avoiding Destiel mainly in cons I'll be very pissed off and sad.
ReplyDeleteAs a bisexual, I can confirm that I spent YEARS denying I was only attracted to men. I would make similar comments because I had to come to realize and accept it before I could come out. (And before anyone tries to invalidate my sexuality, I am 30 years old, have had long term relationships with both men and women, and I am very comfortable with who I am. It's not so black and white.) Dean doesn't really know what he is early on, and clings himself to the straight label, because society teaches us that we are all straight by default. It's an accepted label. He doesn't acknowledge that his sexuality may not be society's standard until he gets older. That's very realistic. There are people who come out as senior citizens. It's not abnormal. And about the women he sleeps with and fantasizes with? That's because he does still harbor an attraction to women, but there's no women only. So, how can realistic character development be labeling Dean Winchester a liar?
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's not a fetish like you make it seem. It's about representation and that if Castiel was in the body of an adult female, they would have already been established as a couple.
The silence is killing me. I keep thinking they are either being silent because something massive is in the works or they are saying nothing because there's nothing happening and that would be the most upsetting thing ever!
ReplyDeleteNo I don't think they have the kind of intimate connection to the point they are romantic. I feel as though if they did make it canon, they would be doing it "just cuz.". No real reason for it other than fan service. And that's what I have a problem with. Why make the characters be in some relationship with each other like that? What purpose to the story does it serve? It's not a show about romance. It's a story about family. And Dean considers Cas family. If Dean and Cas as family "hook up" then why not hook up with Sam? I mean, he definitely loves Sam more and shares a stronger bond with Sam than he does with Cas. Or is it because they are brothers? If it is, then why is Wincest a no no but Destiel is okay? I'm sure you wouldn't want to see Dean and Sam hooking up and making out on screen. And I'm sure you didn't want to see Dean and Lisa doing it either.
ReplyDeleteIt would be okay if there were actually a reason for it. But as it stands, it would just be fan service, and it doesn't even have anything to do with gender. It has to do with what the show is itself. What if there were a love triangle between Cas, Dean, and Sam? Would you really be interested in watching that if it were not played for laughs(Like a Trickster type deal)? I sure wouldn't. I want to see them work together as family and stop evil.
I don't see a reason NOT to go through with the relationship. Even heterosexual ships like Mulder/Scully in series where the creators vowed never to turn the romantic leaf eventually went there. You don't always have to create a romance between two characters but sometimes the utter chemistry and passion between two people that happens on television, most times unplanned, is just so powerful that you can't ignore it. And I wish and pray to everything I know the writers will just give in and try it. I don't see how it could hurt to just attempt it and see how it feels and if it works. Edlund alluded to bisexual Dean. This is nothing new. We've been speculating about that since season one. Let's just stop with the speculation, double speak, and maybes and just do something concrete with the characters.
ReplyDeleteIn my country the show doesn't air on TV and I started buying DVDs and watching it after finding a Destiel blog. I instantly fell in love with the brothers and then when Cas showed up I couldn't stop watching it. It's like The Mortal Instruments, I love the shadowhunters world and all but the love between Jace and Claire makes it better even if forbidden. That's how I feel about Dean and Cas and it's legitimate no matter what stupid closed mind people argue.
ReplyDeleteEven if they didn't plan it, I hope they can go back to the drawing board and put it there. The way season 8 was written, I just can't see how season 9 wouldn't do a follow up on their ever building love narrative. It would boggle my mind for this to be continually ignored.
ReplyDeleteeveryone is entitled to their opinion, as much as there are people who are against there are also people who want them together. hate is an awful thing.
ReplyDeleteAmen! :)
ReplyDelete“Love is needing someone. Love is putting up with someone's bad qualities because they somehow complete you.”
ReplyDeleteBeautifully stated!
ReplyDeletewhat is Jensen's POV on the matter? Do you have concrete sources? Because so far I've heard a lot of theories but no video, no legit source, nothing.
ReplyDeleteSeason 9 seems like the PERFECT season to have this relationship explored. Writers, please do it!
ReplyDeleteI don't want just an answer. I want to see a natural progression to the story they have been telling and one that started to become romantic, even if they didn't realize it at first. By the finale, Jeremy Carver chose to put visual cues into the story such as the archer on TV aiming his bow and arrow to Dean and Castiel. As a viewer, I picked up on that and that is fueling a lot of my hope that something will happen. Other things like Dean listening to Cowboy Junkies, also a choice by Carver, is just making it hard to keep viewing this ship as only subtext. Season 8 had all these little things inserted that when you looked at the big picture you felt, something is going to happen next year. So I don't want a yes or a no. I want a yes and I want a good exploration of this relationship.
ReplyDeleteWell said, that is what I have been trying to say, but you did it better. ;)
ReplyDeleteOr it could have the opposite effect and people stop watching and just move on to Vampire Diaries if you want romance.
ReplyDeleteAt the bare minimum, most D/C fans want a mutual declaration of love. One that is clear and undisputed. When it comes to the physical aspect of the relationship fans can do without it if the confirmation is genuine and heartfelt. All we want is to see Destiel finally being defined as canon. We want onscreen validation. Everything else is icing. :)
ReplyDeleteSome people need to take a step back and think about what they are saying here. I don't' care whether you ship it or not but would you go to a child and tell them they aren't allowed to love what they love that there are rules and they must follow your view? honestly it sickens me that people are so judgemental that they cannot allow others a small piece of happiness.
ReplyDeleteYou might not see love but we do, and that's all that matters really that we believe in the profound bond.
Don't spread hate, if you don't like something you don't make others feel worthless you don't make others feel like they are wrong for loving what they love. Show some respect.
It's funny to read all the comments on this article because they're pretty much all missing the point, in my opinion. Ships are people that we, the viewers, pair with other people we think fit together well. Did we miss the memo about ships always being about the pair being sexual? Or that we NEED them to become boyfriends and get married and adopt children? Sure, the fandoms and shippers would LOVE for that to happen but on a show like Supernatural, it's all just in our imaginations (unless they do like an add-on to the TV Land arc and have Gabriel put all of them into a gay sidcom). We all know that the chances of Dean and Cas getting married and adopting is slim, but we don't need that. What all the fandoms and shippers are asking for is maybe a little sign of what could happen. Me, being one of the shippers, personally feels as though everything would be fulfilled (in regards to Destiel) if there was a teeny-tiny sign that there was something stronger than friendship. A sign that was obvious, although it could be small (no need for big billboards declaring love etc...). The staring, put in my the writers, was obviously written into the show for a reason. A moment where maybe (ideas) Cas comes up to Dean's cheek and whispers in his ear something, or a hand on the cheek or something.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, when I saw a comment about how the actors would feel uncomfortable with acting like this with each other, I'd like to point you towards the big chest filled with videos of backstage things including: Misha hugging Jensen from the back, Jensen coming up to Misha during an interview to stroke his cheek and all of that. Who's uncomfortable?
Prior to season 8, I'd say "you don't want it to be canon, then fine" but now after season 8 I feel the writers put effort (at least Jeremy Carver, did) to say something *is* there and I want a resolution to that part of the story.
ReplyDeleteAnd where did you find the word HATE in my comment?? So you would HATE it if they DON'T get together??
ReplyDeleteSUPERNATURAL HAS SHOWCASED OVER 50+ ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS SINCE SEASON 1 BETWEEN MAJOR AND MINOR CHARACTERS. This fear mongering that the second Dean and Castiel become canon Supernatural will turn into a "romance" is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention that it also flies in the face of what the OP already stated, which is that relationships are coming in season 9 between "Dean and an old flame and Castiel and a new flame." So why aren't you here stating these relationships will make people run to the Vampire Diaries? It's funny that 50 romantic relationships in the shows history haven't turned SPN into a romance but Dean and Castiel would. This shows you how powerful people already imagine the relationship to be, and that to me as from a business perspective, would mean high interest and worth capitalizing on.
ReplyDeleteSame here. The lack of news on their relationship is worrying me. TPTB know of the popularity of Dean and Cas' dynamic in the fandom and they're perfectly aware of how much hope even the smallest statement gives us.
ReplyDeleteBut they deliberately seem to steer away from any questions involving the two of them now and the pessimist in me is resigning to the idea that they're letting all of the subtext drop and are chickening out, and that is a very upsetting thought....I sincerely hope the optimistic portion of fandom is right!
I'd like to see it portrayed as seriously as any hetero relationship, otherwise would be insulting. If from a m/f relationship is expected a love declaration, a kiss or any other sign of romantic affection, why should we stand for less only because it's two males?
ReplyDeleteThank you for the article :) I really look forward to seeing more character development in the upcoming season, as well as more development in Castiel's relationship with Dean. Any person not prejudiced can see that the seeds of a relationship are THERE, though it's all up to the writers to actually do something about making it canon or not. Fingers crossed!
ReplyDeleteI would be one of them.
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily you but you can't deny the amount of bullshit in these comments. No I wouldn't hate it but I would of course prefer if they did.
ReplyDeleteThe only instant that I can think of where fans wanted an "apology" from Jensen was that he seemed to be okay with the audience booing at a fan just saying they are bisexual during a convention. Yes, the fan wanted to ask Jensen's POV on Dean's sexuality but that fan wasn't even able to get to their question in the first place. Because of the audience.
ReplyDeleteTo my knowledge that was the only time that someone attempted to ask Jensen a direct question about Dean's sexuality. If you have actual evidence to the contrary please share with the rest of us.
I'm laughing at the thought of people leaving the series because of Dean and Castiel. The loyal fanbase will stay no matter what. As for casual viewers, let's just look at the fact that Castiel's presence has increased fan interest and gay characters like Charlie have become insanely popular. This fandom, above all fandoms, is very welcoming to LGBTQ+. I doubt that anymore than a few fringe, extremists fans would actually leave because of a romance that would surely be delegated to the B-plot of SPN (as most relationships have) and would not interfere with the main premise.
ReplyDeleteFor every one fan that would leave, thousands more would join (and even RETURN) to the series after all the buzz that is sure to be created from such a storyline. I'd actually be quite excited for a show to finally prove this stereotype wrong that LGBT ruins shows when in fact we're reaching a new era where people are hungry for unconventional storylines. I sincerely believe the support SPN would obtain would blow everyone's minds. :)
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so necessary to become canon? Just because you want it so?
ReplyDeleteI dont want Destiel to happen. I dont want any real relationships, het, homosexual or otherwise to happen. I enjoy the fact that the 'relationships'(if you can even call them that) in this show have always been a very minor plot point and if it were to happen with Dean and Cas that wouldnt be the case. I like that the show is about hunting evil and trials and tribulations the brothers face that go along with that. I dont want relationship drama in the mix.
ReplyDeleteI'll start by saying this: I'm a realist.
ReplyDeleteI understand that the world we live in is largely heteronormative and that the media reflects this, but still, there's something I've noticed within the Supernatural fandom of late: regardless of whether they like it or not, more and more fans are seeing the potential for something more than friendship between Dean and Castiel.
There's a relatively small-yet-vocal group of fans who descend on the comment sections of articles like this and the twitter accounts of TPTB whenever anything relating to Dean and Castiel is mentioned, adamant that Dean is 100% straight, or that Castiel shouldn't be getting so much air time, or any number of other complaints which generally boil down to some variant of "I don't like it and therefore it should never happen!"
But they merely do one thing as far as I'm concerned, and that is highlight the fact that what was once purely fanon is slowly moving out of the shadows. If it weren't, they wouldn't care. They'd ignore it the way they ignore other fanon couplings.
The fact that they are so loud in their protest suggests to me that they too see it as a real possibility, and to me, someone who has never before cared about any non-canon 'ships' (and honestly I am loathe to use the term for all the flack it gets) that is very gratifying.
I may be somewhat biased, as a late-out-of-the-closet bisexual myself, but I believe that there have been subtextual hints for years that Dean Winchester is a closeted bisexual--if you look back over the show, there are subtle hints from as early as season two--but not until season eight did casual viewers start to pick up on it.
Particularly after the episode Everybody Hates Hitler, when Dean was so flustered and flattered by Aaron's advances that it almost backfired on the poor guy--just watch the scene back and look at Aaron's face when he realizes "Oh crap, he might actually be into it."
It's really no wonder that support for a romantic relationship between Dean and Castiel didn't start until after that episode. Until then, it can be reasonably assumed that a lot of the previous scenes between Dean and Castiel that can be read as romantic had been swept under the straight-until-proven-otherwise rug. After EHH, though, Dean's sexuality became a hot topic of discussion, and once you've had the possibility planted in your head, all those little moments come back.
I'm a realist, but I'm also a writer who studied film, and unless my understanding of how story works has become horrendously skewed since my last screenwriting class, I can tell you that those moments were all put there for a reason. All those "I need you"'s were there for a reason; the burly barman and his bearded patron-turned-love-interest were there for a reason; the romantic musical interludes and tropes were there for a reason.
So from a realists perspective, I know it's still up in the air whether or not TPTB will take that final step into canon territory, but from a writers perspective, everything that happened in season eight seems a hell of a lot like the beginning of a slow-burn romance, and I have faith that they will take the story where it needs to go.
And Jensen's response to the same scene you keep analyzing? --->
ReplyDeletehttp://25.media.tumblr.com/91d252063a2bad24a4b2d7b9e954f4b6/tumblr_mt7w4swhQA1siemflo2_r1_500.gif
Ah, I have a best friend, and I would not put it like that. I don't give my friend roses or hold her hand walking down the street.
ReplyDeleteI thought Dean and Cas were already best friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra60hGY0fjQ Starts around 19th minute Jensen talks about the scene between Dean and Aaron, refers to Dean as "manly, HETEROSEXUAL guy" and describes the scene as a comedic one.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOw8z67VkRg Jensen's reaction to a fan who tried to ask a question about Dean's (bi)sexuality. This was the issue that made lots of Destiel fans angry and made them demand an apology from him while they were calling him a homophobic.
At 2012 (or 2011) CC a fan asked him about D&C being romantically together and he answered "that's not what the show is about" I've seen the video but it's old and I don't have it saved.
Is that enough for you?
I am a destiel shipper and I love their relationship in the show but I don't want it to be canon. Maybe it's just me. The only thing I want is that the spn writers don't screw up their friendship by making them apart. I don't want them apart. I will be happy if season nine is about Team Free Will. They are friends and I want it that way.
ReplyDeleteI'm queer and I see so much of myself in Dean. I'm also someone who very late in the game came out of the closet and still I'm not out to everyone and I'm already in my mid 20s! I find so much truth in Dean's journey that he is a character that has kept a lot of things hidden and that slowly these things can come out. Last season, for instance, Charlie was able to let Dean out of the geek closet and wasn't that the most wonderful sight? It was nice to see Dean embrace a part of his personality that he has hidden for such a long time. This guy who seasons before would probably use the term geek as an insult embraced his inner geek. The journey for queer people is not an easy one. We don't all come out of the womb waving the rainbow flag around. Someone like Dean must have had so much thrown at him that he created this invisible shell around himself, only revealing small parts of himself that were safe. Being gay is not safe. Being gay is not something that even today you can just tell someone without having this constant doubt in the back of your mind that they may reject you or worse that they may attempt to harm you. I feel that and I can relate to being an adult who is still in the closet. I would get a lot of strength from seeing Dean come out. There aren't many bisexual characters. From memory I can maybe come up with three. We need more representation for people who aren't just straight or gay. There is so much grayness in between.
ReplyDeleteall of it comes down to one fundamental question still:
ReplyDeletewhat evil would happen if their relationship would officially become romantic?
I too don't think that there's gotta be reproductive organs involved to make a relationship a meaningful one. But at this point of the show it's hard to talk about ambiguity in Dean & Cas's context.
It's already being written through the romantic narrative. I'm not saying it's the best possible conclusion - things could have stayed platonic. But they didn't. The showrunners decided it didn't have to. And honestly: is there anything wrong with the fact that it didn't?
Would you go to couples on the street and tell them that their relationship would be as cool or even cooler if they weren't in a romantic one?
Minor plot points? Dean/Lisa was a huge part of season 6. Major relationships have happened so why are we ignoring canon and pretending Dean/Cas would ruin the show when other relationships of similar weight have not? It seems that once again, the reasons people state for not wanting to see Dean and Castiel on the series don't add up.
ReplyDeletePeople wanting to say that the actors would feel uncomfortable are ignorant. Both Jensen and Misha have portrayed gay characters in past roles. Misha just a month ago kissed a male co-star at a convention. These guys are much more open to these things than we give them credit. Jensen can appear more closed-off but how can you blame him when the atmosphere in cons is so abrasive towards queer culture? I'd be afraid to be more open myself, too.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why people believe if someone doesn't want to act gay and/or kiss a person of the same sex that automatically means they are against gays.
ReplyDeleteI don't know many straight people who would want to kiss another person of their same sex. Some people are comfortable doing it for a show, some are not. I don't blame them. I am all for gays being with whoever they want and to get married, etc. but I would not kiss another girl. It just feels wrong to me for ME to do so, just like it doesn't feel quite right for someone not straight to act that way.
Why is it so necessary for it to stay hidden? Just because you and heteronormative society want it so?
ReplyDeleteYes, Jensen said this--about what he thought Ben Edlund's intention was for Dean's reaction in the scene.
ReplyDeleteUp until this point, it can be safely said that Dean canonically considers himself a "manly, heterosexual guy"--nobody is disputing that--but this scene, according to Jensen, was there to make him stumble. To throw him off and "go back on his heel"
(I think that's the phrase he used--would re-watch myself but my speakers are busted and I don't have headphones handy)
Perhaps I'm interpreting it differently to you, but to me this does nothing but support the possibility of Dean reconsidering his sexuality.
I suggest that anyone who hasn't seen it watches the video of the panel (http://youtu.be/ra60hGY0fjQ#t=18m34s), rather than just look at an excerpt in .gif form.
He was quoting Ben Edlund there. First of all. And Ben Edlund then went ahead and did a commentary track for the episode where he expanded on his point of view and what he implied was pretty clear that bisexuality for this character is an option.
ReplyDeleteSpoiler for Immortal Instruments:
ReplyDeleteJace and Claire aren't actually siblings so it's not so forbidden. (So happy about that. :D )
Are you actually saying that homosexual relationships are the same thing as incest? Dean raised Sam. Dean is a parental figure to Sam. I have kids and I love them more than anything, which is pretty par for the course for most parents. Imagine that. Yeah, you know, I didn't want to see Dean and Lisa, but we did so how that makes your point I don't know. Sorry. What does "if there were actually a reason for it" mean and who decides this? You? How about tptb decide to take them canon because that is what THEY want to do? What if they feel Dean and Cas are a romance? People like to throw around the term fan service to belittle or attack things they don't want to see, but just because you may not like it doesn't mean it's not a relevant part of the story. Fan service is the boys without shirts. Fan service is little quips that wink at certain segments of fandom. And, yes, both of these have been done. But the deep emotional connection between Dean and Cas is part of the story that the writers have developed over years and emphasized in season 8. No, I don't want to see a love triangle with Sam, Dean, and Cas, but I fail to see how that must follow from Dean/Cas.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the article--it was an interesting read. I ship Dean/Cas
ReplyDeletepretty hard--as friends and as love interest. I also support the idea of
it being made canon but I'm also completely fine if it never happens on
the show. I'm happy with the fanon stuff we have and even happier with
the actual canon stuff we have--I need you, where's the angel, profound
bond, etc.
I think you're exaggerating. I doubt many people would just watch the show for a relationship. Supernatural was never a romance show.
ReplyDeleteIt would not gain thousands of viewers no matter what the show does. It's on the CW and its in its 9th season.
Wauw, what a great debate. I should start watching Supernatural again. I stopped watching around season 5 and I can see I´m missing out. :-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, SPN is my break from romance. I love it, but a solid action/family/friendship show I need once in a while.
ReplyDeleteCharlie is well liked because she's a fun character. I like her because she's funny and smart - not because she's straight or gay. Which is how a character should be liked.
ReplyDeleteThis is going to be my last reply because you obviously refuse to see the obvious here. First of all, Jensen's annoyance about the question -the girl did get to say she is bisexual, so everyone,including Jensen, figured out what the question was going to be about- is shown very clearly in this video. And second (and it was all beacuase of that reaction) demands for the apology were not because of the audience, they were because Destiel fans thought Jensen was rude to a bisexual fan. They specifically asked him to apologize for offending homosexual fans with his behaviour. I SAW THE TWEETS (copy/pasting one -excluding the username- "jensen ackles should publicly apologize to the fan for his rude behavior. not okay.")
ReplyDeleteThere was this letter which many Destiel fans supported and even tweeted it to SPN actors and other people involved with SPN that have twitter, that lebels Jensen as a homophobic and misogynistic person. I won't post the link but you can easily find it if you google "open letter to Jensen Ackles"
Their story wasnt about them though. Their relationship was one small part in the scheme of a larger storyline. Additionally there was never any doubt that there was a expiration date for that which I why I consider it minor. That wouldnt be the case with Dean and Cas.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, after the TPTB silence about Dean and Cas dynamic for season 9, I would be very disappointed if anything relevant happened between them
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be a "romance" show to have romantic relationships. Romance happens to be a part of life for many people and is thus reflected in the media. Most shows I watch wouldn't be classified as romance, yet they all have romance in them, including Supernatural. When I think of the Indiana Jones movies, for example, I don't dismiss them as "romances" just because there were romantic relationships in them.
ReplyDeleteThank you. I love you.
ReplyDeletePerfectly said.
ReplyDeleteWould you walk up on the street to a couple of friends and say they're so close they should date?
ReplyDeleteIt's not one sided bulls*it.
ReplyDeleteDestiel fans seem to automatically think anti-Destiel fans are also anti-gay. That's untrue for far more people than the pro fans would think.
If Dean/Cas go canon, will that be enough for you? Because it really all comes down to that.
ReplyDeleteModern Family is a show about family, however you can still have romance in it and you do have.
ReplyDeleteParenthood is a show about family, there again, there's romance. One thing doesn't invalidate the other unless you think gay romance is inappropriate for a family show and if that's the case, bye bye-
Dean sees Cas as family, as a brother. However they're not brothers. And Dean doesn't look at Sam as he looks at Cas. Sam is like a son to him, part of him. The most important thing in the world just like a child. Dean has showed more than a few times that he perceives Cas as something more intimate than a 'brother'. Recently he's come to realize that it is ok if he doesn't see Cas just as a brother but as a partner.
Hmm….sort of? Interesting. I'm not sorta heterosexual; I'm just heterosexual.
ReplyDeleteWow look at those down votes... What?! Where's my salt?!
ReplyDeleteIm talking about destial or whatever that is offensive (no-annoying is the word) because IT IS NOT PORTRAYED AS THAT.
And Im no homophobic, It just infuriates me that people would accuse me of that so rack off!.
I know they're actors but its dosen't fit the storyline when its obvious that they are just friends. I am allowed to have my opinion and I just don't think its okay because it is not the storyline, you all got my point? obviously I know exactly what I'm saying and this is exactly what the article is about at the end of the day. Maybe some of you need to take constructive criticsm.
SPN would not be the first. Straight or gay jokes, I've seen a lot of sexual jokes on TV and in movies, especially in what I call "dumb" comedy movies. Jokes about strippers, etc.
ReplyDeleteOur society always finds a way to laugh at everything. It doesn't mean it's right, that's just how it is.
And some people can take the joke and not make a big deal out of it.
"Their relationship was one small part in the scheme of a larger storyline." - actually, if Destiel were to happen, this is what I expect it to be! Just a minor part of the whole show. Sam&Dean will still hunt, the demons will still be demons, angels still angels, with the only exception being Dean&Cas recognised as a couple by the whole audience. I don't want the show to change into a fanfiction! A kiss or a comment here and there is enough :)
ReplyDeleteReally? Where are all these shows where male-male friendships have become romance onscreen?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say anything to anybody, but if there were a pair of people that had heavy romantic vibes between them, I wouldn't mind if they started dating. That's all there is to it.
ReplyDeleteI'm the kind that pairs up together whatever has legs and is close. I get accussed of dating my best friend for years now and I know how groundless accusations are unnerving. But at the same time, having a really close friendship, I can see the difference between platonic and not platonic vibes, so please, don't pull the friends move on this, cause the discussed duo is on certain levels really past that definition.
I'm glad you said this, because that means that people should continue to like Dean and Cas even if their sexualities turn out to be not so heterosexual after all.
ReplyDeleteOh, so you really didn't mean that characters should be judged on their personalities and not their sexualities. I see.
ReplyDeleteGreat article. Honestly Destiel has moved above and beyond subtext at this point, and so many people feel so strongly about it. I really hope the writers either man up and follow through or else just admit that it isn't going anywhere ASAP for the sake of all our sanity, shippers and non shippers alike.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going by what they've been through, there are plenty of soldiers that have gone through a lot of awful stuff together and not come back in a relationship with their fellow soldiers. I wouldn't be surprised if some have but it's not all that common.
ReplyDeleteAs for romantic vs. sexual I don't understand. To take it to the next level it would have to involve touch. Romantic is a very undefined word. Where one begins and ends is hard to tell.
Whispering something in someone's ear can be considered romantic in less it's technical and the person talking in the other's ear just doesn't want others to hear.
I'm willing to bet a lot of Destiel fans would get excited if Cas whispered in Dean's ear "Look over there" and nod in that direction even though there was no real subtext to it and there was a reason to not let others hear.
I've whispered plenty to friends when telling secrets/trying to prevent others from hearing.
It depends again how you see the relationship. I dont see their relationship as a romantic one and dont believe it needs to be made one on the show. It simply comes down to how you perceive their relationship as to whether you would see it has a bad thing or not.
ReplyDeleteI would not assume anything about a couple walking down the street as I wouldnt know them from adam and that was a rather odd analogy . Dean and Castiel are fictional and a relationship/friendship I have been watching for nearly 4 yrs so I can base my view on that . Taking hinting from the writers is one thing , saying the relationship is more than platonic and should be therefore made canon is again a personal opinion and viewpoint . And one I do not share.
I'm pretty much done here. Destiel fans do assume non-shippers are homophobic and nothing will change their minds.
ReplyDeleteIn their heads it has to be real or the writers are awful homophobic people.
I didn't particularly want Mulder and Scully together in the X-Files. I loved both characters and I loved their friendship. The difference is I didn't attack or demean fans who did want them together or say they were imagining more. I also didn't bother writing post after post about why they shouldn't be together. It's people who believe they're right and that Destiel must be kept to friendship orwho insist on justdabrudders that make other fans dislike them. Please. Don't talk about respect on the one hand while being so disrepectful on the other.
ReplyDeleteI definitely don't like the writers hinting at it either. That is something I think all fans can agree on. Stop teasing writers!
ReplyDeleteExcept it's really not just a showrunner's decision. I'm sure the actors themselves have clauses in their contracts stating what they will/will not do at this stage in the game. Not saying that I have any kind of insider information about it but it's just something they negotiate about when signing contracts. Jensen has stated several times that he views Dean as heterosexual so you really don't know what he has in his contract about what Dean will be allowed to do and who he will do it with, if that makes any sense. For most actors it's a no nudity type of thing, for others it includes not kissing someone of the same sex on the mouth. There was a running joke on Fringe where Walter would walk around naked all of the time and when asked about that John Noble admitted that it was because he was the only person in the cast who didn't have a no nudity clause in his contract so the writers liked to take advantage of it. Like I said, I have no insider information about what Jensen or Misha have in their contracts but you really just never know about these things.
ReplyDeleteActually it doesn't really matter what Jensen says about the character. It's quite interesting that everybody assumes he knows his character best, because he really doesn't. He is not the writer. Yes he plays him a certain way, but to be honest, he has no idea if the writers think of him as bisexual or heterosexual or anything else. He maybe has talked about it with them, but non of these statements from Jensen is really up to date. It doesn't mean that it isn't true, but I for one will always believe the writers of the show and not the actors. So all these statements about the potential of something other than a one hundred percent straight Dean, weigh a lot more than Jensen stating some time ago that he plays him heterosexual, at least in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteAnd about that question at the con... When I saw it on youtube for the first time I really got upset, so I can understand all those fans. It really looked like he was making fun of this bisexual fan and something like that is not acceptable. Although I realized quite quickly that he didn't intend to make fun of her, he was merely talking about the booing from the audience instead of her, but really this wasn't entirely clear, while I watched it for the first time, so I really can understand that it upset people...
It's fascinating to see how many people come out against Destiel when the rest of the world is at work. Oh well.
ReplyDeleteI think this article was spot on with what's going on with the fans of the series. Admittedly, some of the more established pairs have been getting exhausted with Destiel's enthusiasm. (Sorry Wincesters) But you have to admit that Destiel has become one of the biggest aspects of the show.
Destiel has won dozens of online fan awards this year - including a hard-fought battle against Rizzles. There's a tumblr account dedicated to counting how many times new fans to the show think Dean and Cas are an established gay couple. Parodies of the Destiel relationship have been popping up in fanart and video form.
And none of this is unusual, considering the size of the fandom.
Check out this poll equally distributed among the shippers on Tumblr.
http://reblog-if-spn.tumblr.com/post/52094305834/poll-results-97-6-of-voters-would-continue-to
You're reading that right. Over 27,000 people said that they would keep watching if Destiel went canon. Only 600+ said they would stop.
But when we've seen straight couples get this kind of fan attention (Mulder and Scully, Bones and Booth, Stabler and Benson, Etc.) the romance is worked into the show. It might be a full canonization, or it might be something that the characters try but ultimately reject. But it is at least acknowledged.
All Supernatural's show runners are doing is giving us a wink, a smile, and a "maaaaybe".
And that's just insulting. To BOTH sides of the debate.
I personally think that Destiel done right (AKA: As a secondary plot line that runs the rest of the series without detracting from the bond between Sam and Dean... and without changing the personalities of any of the characters.) would be groundbreaking.
Dean could be the perfect stereotype-bashing bisexual. Mainstream media would finally have someone who remains a legendary hero despite the fact that he fell in love with a dude. Sam would have another pillar in his permanent support structure. He'd also have evidence that you can hunt and still create deep connections with other people. Cas could finally understand one of the best aspects of humanity. And happy. For once.
But no. Wink and a smile.
Come on guys. Make Destiel canon.
It's a risk, and it will piss some people off. But you're pissing off EVERYONE by acting like nothing's going on.
Or how about we campaign for more lgbt representation in general? A campaign to stop all the problematic lolgay moments this show has? If you're interest lies solely in making Destiel canon then stop pretending like this is a lgbt issue and not just about what entitled shippers want.
ReplyDeleteConstructive criticism? Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one. Criticism, you gave. Constructive, not so much.
ReplyDeleteWhat??? I did not say anything about other shows or male-male friendships. It just seems that when 2 same sex characters have a close friendship the shipping starts..why can't they be JUST FRIENDS.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind people dating whoever they want in real life, it's their life. I should not be able to decide who my cousin or best friend or uncle or aunt should date/marry.
ReplyDeleteBut this is a TV show, so we can want whatever we want, doesn't mean it should be true. I want friendship, you want Destiel. I really don't see why I'm in the wrong.
Again, so true.
ReplyDeleteCas role is way more significant than Lisas and theres no expiration date on him. Theres no way their relationship would be as insignificant as Dean and Lisas was.
ReplyDeleteYou'd really be fine with the writers making Destiel canon and then hardly ever mentioning it again?
It has nothing to do with the characters except for how they've been written for 8 years and the writers giving in to fans who demand their ships to be real.
ReplyDeleteNo because I watch for their friendship, not a budding romance. I have other shows for that.
ReplyDeleteSince people also will ship two opposite sex characters that have a close friendship and yet you are specifically complaining about the same-sex shipping, it seems it is the sexual orientation of the characters in the ship that is bothering you.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
ReplyDeleteI'll believe it when I see it written by the show's writers.
ReplyDeleteAll these "awards" are fan awards. Tumblr is not a representation of the nearly 3 million people in the US and many more SPN fans who watch around the world.
How do you know it's not the input of fans like you, then, that is keeping the show from making them canon? It's not like you and others aren't being really vocal about not wanting this. How about the idea that if it goes canon it's because that's what the writers decided they wanted to do? Or do you claim to know Carver's mind?
ReplyDeleteI would expect that the characters will have their hands full dealing with the supernatural.
ReplyDeleteHeteronormative? I am not against gay representation. I just want Dean and Cas to stay friends. PERIOD. Just like Destiel fans want more.
ReplyDeleteYou can love family and friends, not just a romantic partner.
ReplyDeleteUntil it becomes canon, I'll stick to the facts that prove otherwise.
ReplyDeleteQuestion is, is it what Kripke had in mind? He may not be involved with the show much anymore, but he is the creator and since he left I have not enjoyed the show as much. Too much story lines and new characters I disliked.
ReplyDeleteI side with Rehabber and to say about myself, I do not ship all girl/guy friendships. Like Alex/Michael on Nikita. Some do, but I don't.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure who you are talking to here. For some people it is an issue of representation and I don't see how it's your right to dictate the way they should show their concerns. As for me, I freely admit I'm not campaigning for more lgbt representation and have never said otherwise. I want them canon because I believe in their love story. They just happen to be male-male and the idea of them being together doesn't offend me as it seems to do some of the posters here.
ReplyDeleteBut Destiel fans do the same thing to non-fans of it. You push and push and push it on us that it should be real. We're just doing the same as you.
ReplyDeleteI think this article had some very valid points. Destiel is a massive part of the fandom, love it or hate it, but u would be really interested to see how it would be addressed in a show like Supernatural, with a gay relationship not being central to the plot. Dean had sex with the angel Anna in a matter of episodes but because Cas (who for five seasons has been an angel and therefore had NO gender) is in a male body it cannot happen.
ReplyDeleteYes, some people won't see the relationship as romantic, that happens on tv and in real life all the time.
For Supernatural, dean's ''heterosexuality" seems to be one of the main problems, as Cas hasn't been defined as such. Personally, I think there's good evidence for him being bi, but even if he is canonically straight, that doesnt mean it can't change.
At the end of the day some people would stop watching if destiel happened, but just as many people would replace them, if it was written well
Actually, that's exactly what tumblr is. What world have you been living on?
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Jensen doesn't know his character? I guess the Js and people from the crew who say that nobody knows Sam and Dean better than Jared and Jensen have no idea what they're talking about. I guess a writer who joined the team in the latest seasons knows Dean better than Jensen who has been playing him for 8 years. I guess when Jensen was saying at CC that he loves his character and wants what's best for him, when he said that he protects his character, when he tells a writer that "Dean wouldn't that", all these times he's talking bs because he doesn't know his character well... Okaaay...
ReplyDeleteAs for the video, Jensen says clearly "seriously? this is the first question?" And when he says 'don't ruin it for the rest of us" he doesn't talk to the audience, he talks to the girl asking the question. He even says" Just like you, I've watched it many times and it's crystal clear who he is pissed with, if did or did not understand what the question was about and if he approved it or not.
Have you any idea how entitled this whole article comes off? SOME people see some chemistry and WISH that it would become canon. But for them to get their wish 9 years of history, character development and simple fact (ie that Dean is straight) have to go out of the window, and huge swathes of the more mainstream fandom have to be given something they DON'T want to see.
ReplyDeleteThis is absolutely not about homophobia or the portrayal of gay people / relationships in the media. If it was the campaign would be for a gay character to be introduced to the show and portrayed sensitively eg as Charlie has been. Instead the campaign is to turn 2 straight men gay. As someone who believes passionately in gay rights and has a number of close friends who are gay I, and they, find this insulting in the extreme. I believe that someone is born gay. It isn't a lifestyle choice or a matter of 'meeting the right same-sex person'. Of course some people are in the closet but does Dean strike anyone as a man conflicted about his sexuality? Nope. And we don't just have to judge that on his behavioiur. We haven't just seen Dean's actions ie that he only sleeps with and falls in love with women, we have seen inside his head and what he does when no one is looking. We know his sexual fantasies which are heterosexual; scantily clad gorgeous girls dancing for him (TSRTS) etc. We know what he wishes for in his romantic life; Lisa in DALDOM, his fantasy girl in WIAWSNB. We know his taste in porn; totally hetero eg Busty Asian Beauties, Casa Erotica.
Dean is straight. Surely only someone who believes that being gay can be switched on and off rather than being part of who you are, would think turning Dean into a gay man at this stage would be a good thing for how gay people are perceived.
As for the queer baiting issue - yes I think there is a point there. SPN is a business. The aim of a business is to please as many of the people as much of the time as possible. To completely shut down Destiellers could be done in a heartbeat. They don't do it not because they are EVER going to go there. Clearly they aren't. They don't shut it down because they don't want to lose those that watch in vain hope. Is that a bit unfair? Probably. IMO they should just shut it down once and for all and be honest with people.
I love their relationship in general. While I would love for them getting together, I never want to see Cas leave the Winchesters....that's practically taking him away from his family (which he's going to be fighting to get back to in season 9)
ReplyDeleteI understand why Destiel fans are angry. It pretty much is turning into queer baiting because of all the hints....there's having fun and then there's people taking advantage to make a profit.
Some comments talk about how guys act gay all the time for fun.....this is kinda true but it's usually physical kidding around (slap on the butt, kiss on the cheek, overly dramatic declarations of love) I don't think I've ever seen my friends act.....gay for each other like Cas and Dean (and if you look at the show's evidence, you can't even deny it.)
And to those who think that it's just destiel fans being all high and mighty because they are shipping two guys.....it might be true for some people but I happened to really like Anna (then she died), I loved Bella (then she kicked the bucket) and I almost stopped watching the show because I loved Lisa and Ben (who might as well have died)
I just want my boys to be happy!! Is that so much to ask?? D:
Who I'm referring to is right there in my comment.
ReplyDeleteOkay so you say all the writers don't know what they are talking about, because the actor, who by the way says the lines they have been writing for him for years, knows best what is one hundred percent true for his character? Because I am pretty sure that yes it is his character and he plays him like I said a certain way, but that doesn't mean his thoughts are the one and only truth, because honestly I am quite sure he is not invited to the meetings the writers have, where they discuss the plots for the next season, be it the overall arch or just little subplots. I am pretty sure that he although they will consider his opinion about certain things, he is not the one who gets to make the decision, or is he?
ReplyDeleteThank you. I hate this whole 'if its not canon its homophobia' spiel some of them have. They're friends. Whats wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteNo. You tried to make a certain segment of fandom the "problem". I usually decide not to post because of the crap I face just because I favor Cas or I love Dean/Cas or I think the narrative of season 8 was building towards them as a romance. People who ship Dean/Cas don't come off of a factory assembly line. Just because someone ships Dean/Cas does not mean I agree with them on anything except for liking Dean/Cas. I don't happen to agree with the author of this article on many things. As for pushing it on you….???? Are you not putting your views out there and arguing with those who think differently than you do. You chose to engage in conversation in the comment section. No one forced you to do so and no one can force you to like Dean/Cas or to see Dean/Cas, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut to please you.
ReplyDeleteWhere do people get the idea that fandom is a significant representation of general audience?
ReplyDeleteIt represents less than 10% of the GA.
So if the writers make Dean/Cas canon, you will ship it?
ReplyDeleteI'm the same way. I try to remain objective about these sort of things and rely on canon. If the writers did make the decision to make Destiel canon, I'd have zero problem with it. But I do have a problem with people trying to force the writers' hands on the issue. It's their show ultimately, what they present to us is what they choose to do and I don't think anyone has a right to demand anything one way or another. All of the hand wringing with fans saying that they'll no longer watch the show if the ship does or doesn't become canon is a huge distraction from the overall story they're trying to tell. I also don't agree with how the writers do seem to resort to queerbaiting in regards to Destiel. I don't think it's fair to fans of the ship to constantly get their hopes up to just turn around and say "LOL, No homo" after the fact. They're toying with people's emotions here and encouraging the wank. Personally for me I've never been interested in any kind of romantic pairings on Supernatural. To me it's just not that kind of show. But I can see why people who do ship Destiel might get the idea that there is chance that it could happen because the writers do resort to fan service.
ReplyDeleteJoss Whedon was once asked: “So, why do you write these strong female characters?”
ReplyDeleteHe replied: “Because you’re still asking me that question.”
http://bakasara.tumblr.com/post/47640754173/why-do-you-want-on-screen-destiel-if-youre-so-sure
By this logic, you could prove that Wincest is canon very easily. And didn't you make a huge post about how you were quitting the fandom? Then again, I can't really take you seriously since you also seem to think that Hannigram is healthy/will be canon.
ReplyDeleteGrow up and stop looking for things that are not there and that is NOT what this comment is about..I just wondered why characters can not be just friends...I DON'T CARE WHAT SEX THEY ARE..why does it have to end up about sex?
ReplyDeleteWhat does 'acting gay' mean?
ReplyDelete'and if you look at the show's evidence, you can't even deny it'
What evidence?
Are you a wincest shipper or something? Why would you give to so much trouble commenting here if you simply want Dean and Cas to remain friends just because?!
ReplyDeleteNo. That is not the question since Kripke abandoned ship. He's running another show and Carver is in charge. Now, maybe Kripke has still has some say-so, but I don't know. Anyway, if you really feel only the original creator's vision should be kept in mind, I hope you haven't read Wicked, or watched Sherlock, or Elementory, or Smallville… Do I need to go on?
ReplyDeleteExactly. My hope for this season is their relationship getting on track and finally sorting out some of their communication issues. Anything else will be a bonus for me.
ReplyDelete"At the end of the day some people would stop watching if destiel happened, but just as many people would replace them, if it was written well"
ReplyDeleteI challenge you to evidence that statement. Is Destiel passionately supported in some quarters online? Yes. Are they well organised when it comes to online polls etc? Yes. Does that necessarily make them anything more than a tiny faction in the wider fandom of 3m plus SPN fans in the US and around the world? I highly doubt it. Most of those 3m+ probably aren't even aware of the concept of Destiel and would look at you with amazement if you suggested it. I know that is the reaction I've got when I've told more casual viewers I know about it.
Most SPN viewers are a) straight (if they are representative of society as a whole) and b) just see SPN as entertainment and don't spend too much time thinking about it. If suddenly Dean became gay and started a relationship with Cas they'd think it a bizarre, out of nowhere, out of character side step into an unrecognisable alternative universe. I'm not saying there shouldn't be gay relationships on TV, or that the expectations of a largely straight audience shouldn't be challenged. But not like this. It has to be credible. It has to come from seeing a character struggle with his sexuality for example.
This is a really interesting article that addresses a very controversial hot button issue that is currently going on around media and fandoms today. I, personally, see the love narrative that the writers and actors have built between these two characters and would love to see it developed more as the show progresses, not because of some kind of fetish, but because I couldn’t care less what gender each of these characters are. I love a well-developed relationship and the one between Dean and Castiel has been one of the most intriguing and gut wrenching relationships that I have seen in a TV show in a very long time.
ReplyDeleteWill the producers and writers ever have the courage to examine their relationship from a romantic perspective? Well that remains to be seen, but it is doubtful. What I really don’t want to see is some female characters thrown at these two to become forced love interests. I hope that the writers respect the characters and their audience enough to not do that. The reason that Dean and Castiel is so interesting is because it has grown and developed through years of both working together and against one another but always coming back together because they are somehow drawn to each other.
What saddens me most is to read comments on here from probably well-meaning people that are completely unaware of how insulting they are being because they are so entrenched in heteronormative social thinking. One commenter stated that it would be offensive to the actors to make them kiss a person of the same gender. I am sure this person was just concerned that it may be awkward for the actors, but sadly, using the words ‘offensive’ and ‘unusual’ implies that a same sex kiss is wrong, more so than all of the sex scenes that they have had with female actors on this show. This is simply not true. An actor who is professional and serious about his craft relishes the idea of exploring many facets of deep and complex characters, not spending 9 years playing a stagnant stereotypical ladies-man. Actors and their families know full well that the romantic scenes (of any sexuality) that they portray on screen are just their job and they learn to separate that from their personal lives.
Another commenter demeaned the validity of same-sex relationships by equating a same-sex couple to a threesome. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. On a show like New Girl, because Jess began a romantic relationship with one character, does that automatically mean the next step is a foursome with all of her roommates? Of course not! The idea is ludicrous. Sadly, too many people in our society see same-sex relationships as less valid and deviate, devaluing both the people in these relationships and their love.
Other comments argue that because Dean has only been shown as heterosexual in the past, that it means the character will remain that way forever. Again, I don’t think these comments are made from malice, but probably more from ignorance. Human sexuality is much more complex and fluid than hetero or gay. There is so much grey between those two labels and many people’s sexual identification changes and grows as they do. Certainly a 24 year old Dean who didn’t believe that angels existed is very different than the 35ish (not even counting 40 hell years) Dean who has literally been to heaven, hell and purgatory, meeting angels, demons, death and God himself on the way. Many things about a person will change during that ten year span, and acknowledging attraction to more than one gender could possibly be one of those changes. I am a long time married woman but I can certainly say my sexual identity is much more complex at my current age than it was at 24.
I don’t know what the writers are going to do with the relationship between Dean and Castiel, but I sincerely hope they treat it with the respect it deserves, and not devalue and ignore their chemistry simply because of gender. This would be a waste of a beautifully built narrative.
And, back at you, what's wrong with them being more?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure Nora will be Castiel's love interest. From everything I've heard so far, she's his employer and there will be a storyline involving Cas having romantic feelings for the first time in his life. I believe she has a young son, as well and they'll be exploring that side of things too with Castiel bonding with her child. I know it's not what Destiel fans necessarily want to hear but from everything I've heard so far it appears that this is where the writers are going to take things for him. And as far as I know, Dean and Cas will not be fighting. The reason why they're separated has more to do with Cas trying to keep a low profile because of the bounty on his head from the other angels and the Winchester boys having other priorities at the moment. They come to a decision that it's better to remain separated for the well being of all involved, which includes Nora and her son for Cas.
ReplyDeleteThere are many stages of homophobia, it's not either you are homophobic or not. There are people that accept gay marriage but don't feel confortable with affection demonstrations. Don't delude yourself, it's still prejudice. It happens because we live in a society like ours. When you say it feels wrong for you to kiss a girl, that 'wrong' is in your head. Mouths are mouths and it all feels the same, of course if you're in love you're in love and the rest doesn't matter. You can have preferences for gender but it's never wrong or it doesn't feel wrong like that. It all comes down to what we feel about the other.
ReplyDeleteLol no its not.
ReplyDeleteBut it does not represent every SPN fan whether online or off. The Destiel fandom is a part of that fandom not a representation of it. And has proven here in the comments section not everybody agrees that Destiel is a candidate for canon.
ReplyDeleteuh gee. i don't know. Maybe every scene with Dean and Cas.. maybe?
ReplyDeleteBy that logic every scene between Dean and (fill in the blank) is evidence for a canon relationship.
ReplyDeleteNothing specific then?
well, at least we can all agree they should be bloody honest once and for all
ReplyDeleteit would be out of character for Dean and Cas to get together? seriously, sometimes i wonder if we're even talking about the same show
ReplyDeleteYou're right because there isn't any other explanation for why the Wincesters are so close like destructive codependency brought on by one child being forced into a parental role of another and being told he must place his sibling/son above all else. Oh, wait.
ReplyDeleteDont act obtuse. Take a look at the comments and then tell me if you think they'd be ok with Dean and Cas announcing they're in a relationship and never acting like a couple or having a couple storyline.
ReplyDeleteBoth of which would would detract from the primary storyline which is: hunting evil and Dean and Sam.
<img src="tumblr_li2wlcuCYA1qa4ltvo1_500.gif"
ReplyDeleteA link that doesnt work?
ReplyDeleteWell, ts more than I expected.
I'm looking at things that are there, thank you very much. My interpretation just happens to be different than yours. Perhaps you're not picking up the clues?
ReplyDeleteYou are a real flesh and blood person , Dean Winchester is not. He is a fictional character, a product of a pool of writers and in no way can there be a comparison with a real man or woman.
ReplyDeleteX
We have been told that he is not gay, we have been shown that he has been in relationships only with women.
We must hold to that until we are shown differently.
X
Anything else is only a projection of one's desires and wishes onto that character which may or may not be satisfied by these writers.
X
I'm quite sure if Castiel had been female ther wouln't have been a relationship there either.
The Winchesters don't have long term relationships. The show is not about that. It's about hunting evil and saving lives or at least it used to be.
Well, if this is the case, where are all the complaints from those that don't want any romance?
ReplyDeleteI don't like Castiel; for me he has run his course and has nothing more to contribute to the show and should have been killed of long ago.
ReplyDeleteX
My opinion is as valid as anyone else's and I am free to like or not like a character in a tv show if I wish, just as you are perfectly entitled to think differently.
No big as Sammy would say!
Impatient are we. Here's the link, you can now see all those heterossexual moments between Dean and Cas http://superwolfbutts.tumblr.com/post/61767158255/assbuttsinparis-deans-cass
ReplyDeleteNot sure what your question is. I said that personally for me I have no interest in any romance on this show but that's my opinion. Others have their own opinions about it and they're entitled to them. I was just passing along information as it was given out in regards to Castiel's storyline this season. I might not be crazy about him having a romantic love interest but others might be interested.
ReplyDeletehttp://superwolfbutts.tumblr.com/post/61767158255/assbuttsinparis-deans-cass
ReplyDeleteWhy comment? Because I am tired having this non-existent Castiel / Dean pairing brought up incessantly, and every article about it is exactly the same; someone trying to convince others that their ideas are correct ,when they are based on nothing except their personal interpretation.
ReplyDeleteOnce it's canon, if it ever is, then it can be discussed.